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Korea Start‑class Low‑importance

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China Start‑class

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On 01 December 2007, this talk page was linked from 2channel, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

Chinese text at Wikisource

HSL, I don't wanna spend time for u, but I'm gonna give u some info.

http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=phistory&nid=63282

s:zh:大淸皇帝功德碑: Chinese text at Wikisource

I strongly recommend that you should learn history by yourself at first.Amanatsu 17:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I restored above comment and his/her signature, because it was removed by 220.146.187.249 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at 13:57, 3 November 2006 UTC. The just reason of this edit is here. --Nightshadow28 12:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

"tributary state"? A big mistake.

"tributary state"? It was more like a client state. Korean king knelt for Chinese messanger 9 times to the ground, which was called Kowtow(http://en.wikipedia.org/Kowtow) back then. This clearly shows korean's client state. It is described on "Samjeondo Monument"(http://en.wikipedia.org/Samjeondo_Monument) in Seoul.

"a symbol of respectful diplomatic policy"? No, it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.146.187.249 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

acutually, korean king never 9 times to the ground to chinese messenger in history. you may confused with Second Manchu invasion of Korea. only one time knelt ground to Qing's emperor. this is very famous japanese fabrication. your IP is japanese, too. also, japanese can not prove by public trusted source. this is one of the typical japanese fabrication. that's all. after Second Manchu invasion of Korea, manchu and korea battle was over. and manchu conquere to mainland china. chinese slaughtered and raped by manchu race. and destroyed thieir goverment by Qing and must obey manhu style culuture(like manchu hair style) but korea was not. they keep their culuture and goverment.

also, manchu and korean are family race. Qing's former founder was korean. this proved by history of jin (金史). Jin is former dynasty of Qing. 金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來，年已六十余矣) (Jin's founder was korean, he leaved korea at age 60.)Replayamong23 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Replayamong23 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I restored a link above comment, because it was modified to by Referloose (talk · contribs) at 03:48, 4 October 2007. The just reason of this edit is here. --Nightshadow28 13:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Korea had been a vassal state of China for hundreds years as everyone knows. If korea was a independent country, why Koreans built the gate named INDEPENDECE Gate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.214.86.199 (talk) 10:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

IP 85.214.86.199 is proxy IP in german. and no one can prove this fabrication. Cause5stage (talk) 07:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Change log

I found the description of Yeongeunmun Gate in the "Independence Gate" article which is more accurate. So I used the words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Independence_Gate "... Treaty of Shimonoseki. After that, Korea demolished the Yeongeunmun Gate, which had been the symbol of prevailing submissive diplomatic policy towards China, and built the Independence Gate." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.146.187.249 (talk • contribs) 14:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

ae you retarded? Dongnipmun Gate (Independence Gate) was constructed in 1898 through the initiative of Dr. So Jae-pil. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dutyterms (talk • contribs) 13:53:27, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

Totally Fiction Edit

I find This edit by Nightshadow28. It's Totally Fiction. also I can't find this souce anywhere. 774townsclear

This article is on 2channel's watchlist

No wonder this article may have a long history of edit warring because it has controversial issues itself and has been designated as one on the watchlist by Japanese editors deeply associated with 2channel, the largest Internet forum not only in Japan but also in the world. The watch list encompasses throughout articles related to Japan and Korea and some of China. Unfortunately, many Japanese meat/sock puppets related to the board have been deeply involved in editing those articles. Therefore, I leave a note for people to be cautious in future. You can see the whole list as clicking the collapsed box.

• Relevant articles.
  • Long time abusing Misplaced Pages by Japanese editors from 2channel meat/sock puppets (in WP:ANI archive380)
  • Talk:Sea of Japan#2channel meatpuppets from 朝鮮人のMisplaced Pages（ｳｨｷﾍﾟﾃﾞｨｱ）捏造に対抗せよ 21 (diff 1diff 2)
  • Special:Whatlinkshere(see the RFCU and SSP files)

● refers to problematic articles by 2channel people
○ for articles with heated edit warring

P.S This article, Yeongeunmun Gate was "sincerely' discussed on Japanese 2channel, so if you want to know what they talked, visit the this link. I translated some. --Appletrees (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

POV tag

Appletrees, can't you present arguments logically? You placed the POV tag. It is not meant to express, "I don't like this article," but to mark a NPOV dispute. You have to explain your reasons on the talk page. But you haven't.

What you have to do is to clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. As always, the stuff you put on this talk page is simply irrelevant to the supposed content dispute of the current revision. --Nanshu (talk) 00:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Vice versa, your removing the tag and the above comment seem to like "I don't like the tage being stuck to the article to which I dedicated."

Nanshu, why are you so emotional? It is not a logical way for us who has different standpoint to cooperate. I tell you the reason. First, the page is totally written from Japanese point of view, you who tend to make wonderful edits to Korean related articles such as Hoe (dish). There is no analysis from Korean or Chinese scholars. You try to emphasize that Joseon dynasty was not an independent nation which also has been pushed by Japanese editors here. Thus, It lacks of neutral point of view and needs more expansion by other than you. Once the article is contested by someone, you can't remove the tag whether you don't like it or not. Plus, don't resort to personal attacks. My notice on 2channel here is quite appropriate because the disruptions by your frineds are ongoing and you proved that your saying "I'm not related to the board" proved wrong. So your "as always" is a false accusation on me. If you wish to discuss on this article with me, please be civil as possible.--Appletrees (talk) 14:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Not vice versa. It's you who put the POV tag. As Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute clearly says, the burden of proof is on you, not me. It's no wonder that the policy goes that way as long as you intend to improve articles. The tag alone does not give any substantial information about the problem to be resolved.

It's really hard to understand your logic. While guessing whay you trying to say, I made a hypothesis: the policy is not obvious to you because you do not aim to improve articles. In other words, you just try to degrade the article you don't like. This assumption explains your baffling remark.

Finally you seem to give an explanation, but as always, it doesn't make sense. I assumed that we were discussing the gate. But most of your comment is simply irrelevant. I searched for something constructive and this effort is near-worthless. Finally I found a sentence: "the page is totally written from Japanese point of view." Too obscure to discuss. The rest seems an outpouring of emotion. Maybe you try to bring a new idea to Misplaced Pages that reliability is secured by personal qualities rather than citation. If so, this is not the right place. --Nanshu (talk) 23:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nanshu, welcome back? Finally, you might have your summer vacation. That is good for you. (your 2channel people started being re-active recently) As always, you're putting irrelevant things on Korean related talk pages like personal attacks or biased information. Please refrain yourself from committing such behaviors if you wish to discuss with other editors. Well, we're always judged by our past behaviors and I've trying to be neutral on this article. Even I defended it to be deleted or restored from massive blanking as you might miss it. The theory of "What I don't like it" seems only apply you, "I don't like the tag attached to this that I wrote." The POV tag is not necessarily needed for immediate proof. I thought you agreed to the article is biased, because you've been very clam for months, so to me, you finally acknowledged your logical flaws. Since the overall tone of the article written by you is assertive without recent secondary sources (your souce is very outdated) and weighs WP:Undue, so anyone thinks that the article is biased, he or she can put the tag. Moreover, someone challenged your source already and you intentionally styled Joseon kings to Korean king and illustrated all kings did the ceremony. The lead written by you misleads the contents and readers, that is disruptive. Unless you're a well-known academic in the history of Korea, your bare hyperthis not can be introduced to the article because here is not your blog.--Caspian blue (talk) 23:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not unusual that people initially do something without deep thought. But once it goes wrong, such naiveness is no longer accepted. Again, something concrete is required. And the burden of proof is on you.

You changed your argument as if you have had no specific reason. Is my source outdated? Hey, exactly who is challenging it? We stand on the shoulders of giants. We sometimes overturn previous work but it cannot be without clear evidence. For example, I explained at Talk:Kangnido#Gari Ledyard's paper why Ledyard's paper is outdated. I pointed to a newly discovered map and cited a recent paper that overturned it in concrete form. I expect you to do the same thing.

And the new second point. The Joseon/Korea stuff. Does it really matter? I assume that no one questions the identification of Joseon as Korea, unlike, say, Goguryeo. So Korea is basically preferred to the unfamiliar word of Joseon. And I explained the date of the construction of gate, the clear pointer even if you don't know when the Joseon Dynasty founded. Lastly, I now added "the Joseon Dynasty" to the leading section.

And the third point. I've already pointed out below why 61.39.55.2's edits are wrong. But you reinserted the error. It's nothing but vandalism!

BTW, I suspect that you regard discussion as a game in which whoever leaves a comment at the end wins. I advice you to refrain yourself until you organize your thoughts. Dealing your random thoughts is just a waste of time. --Nanshu (talk) 22:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Nanshu (talk · contribs), you really need to refrain yourself from committing such disruptive comments. Your usual calling people who object to your biased information and attitude vandalism is nothing but all personal attacks. You've been pointed out on such the behavior by many people here and there. As for naiveness and the links, well, so? I just confirm that you have not shown your so-called intelligence yet so far. As for the Joseon/Korea, it does matter in style. If it does not matter much, why your friends were so sensitive to how people call Wa or Nippon, Occupied Japan to articles. Or people would not gather to discuss for RPC moving to China. Your last paragraph is nonsense. Blame your frequent absence, or take a deep breath to refresh your mind. Different point of view is not vandalism. Besides, I said that the NPOV tag has nothing to do with immediate burden of proof. If so, I would put {{OR}} or {{Unreferences}}, but is related to your writing tone and unbalanced info unsuited to Encyclopedia which should be always neutral.--Caspian blue (talk) 23:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Now it's too clear that the discussion with you cannot make constructive progress. I will ask for a third opinion. --Nanshu (talk) 01:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hello, a third opinion was requested, and I came here to provide one. First of all, I have read through the article, and tried making improvements were I could. It was very hard for me to get a good idea about how neutral this article is, all sources are in Korean language. And the only language I do speak having the subject is Dutch, but being a very small article without sources.

The reasons for using the template were stated to be "at least two people think this biased, and you styled Joseon to Korean King." I believe the latter has been resolved, it's not in the current version. An argument is stated to be that the article is written from "Japanese point of view", I have no idea if this is true, but think it's a good plan to give User:Appletrees some time to back it up in one clear entry. Including references to reliable sources in English or translated to English. Pending that there is not much against having the template a bit longer.

When you want to make controversial changes to the article, try to discuss them on the talk page first. Don't editwar. Species8473 (talk) 03:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, Species8473. Several months has passed since I've posted a complete rewrite of this article, and Appletrees can hardly be expected to bring substantial improvement. But OK, I give him some time.

PS. The main source Keijō-fu shi is written in Japanese. It's concise but doesn't cite primary or secondary sources. So for convenience of reference, I added Classical Chinese documents written in Korea, which Keijō-fu shi is based on. There is little hope of getting any good English source. And I've never seen a scholarly dispute over this gate. --Nanshu (talk) 13:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I give Caspian blue, aka Appletrees, "some time" to back it up in one clear entry, but no improvement was made by him. Besides, he ignored the discussion below, and inserted a factual error again.

I'm really tired of wasting time for Appletrees. He spends tremendous time in unproductive activity. As his edtis on this talk page clearly demonstrate, his activity doesn't lead to improvement of the article. I think we need help from administration guys, to tackle with this kind of useless hard workers. --Nanshu (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

61.39.55.2's edits

61.39.55.2 added a new claim that <sic>since 1634, stopped this kowtow performance.</sic>, citing the article of the 戊辰 day, the 6th month, Injo 12, of the Injo Sillok. If s/he'd read that page and the next (of the printed edition), s/he would have learnt the actual consequence. The article of the 戊辰 day just records a discussion in the court. The article of the 癸酉 day reports a counterargument given by the Chinese ambassador. And the king did do the rite of wu bai san koutou as described in the article of the 甲戌 day:

上曉出郊外迎勅. 行五拜三叩頭禮.

--Nanshu (talk) 23:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

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