Revision as of 07:45, 19 September 2002

"Sex is more important than imagination." Evolution

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" -- Albert Einstein

"They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan

My impression of the usage of Junk Science is that it is primarily reserved for 'scientific' testimony in personal injury and malpractice lawsuits - maybe not, though. --MichaelTinkler

How about adding Aristotle as an example of pseudoscience? Specifically, his assertion that a rock 20 times heavier than another will fall 20 times faster.

See protoscience. Somebody makes a claim, people work on it, the facts come out.

Aristotle was not pseudoscience simply because of the definition of the term. Pseudoscience is work which inaccurately claims to be "scientific" (ie. is in accordance with the accepted scientific method). As the scientific method really only began to take shape during the Renaissance, Aristotle is exempted. Also, the entry on the Socratic Method will better explain the approach used by the ancient great thinkers. And to be fair, Aristotle did not contradict any of the 'facts' as known at the time - it was only around 1500 when Galileo was the first (western thinker) to convincingly prove that acceleration due to gravity is independent of mass. As someone pointed out below, if someone put forward Aristotle's viewpoints *today* then it absolutely would be pseudoscience (or junk science)- MB

Exactamente  :-) Or perhaps more pointedly, if someone today maintained such views in the face of scientific study to the contrary (as opposed to saying, "Oops. I was wrong about that").

That claim may well be pseudoscience. But did Aristotle really make the claim? I suspect what we have here is some pseudoscolarship as well. Who claimed that Aristotle made this claim?

The connotation I have for "pseudo" or "junk" science is that it refers to beliefs or ideas, perhaps wrapped in "scientific-sounding" jargon (Like the Q-Ray Ionized Bracelet schtick I just saw on TV), that have no supporting evidence, and usually go so far as to conflict with current scientific thought.

Just assuming for sake of argument that Aristotle or a contemporary did say that ("rate of fall is proportional to weight") -- was that the commonly held "scientific" (or what passed for such in those times) belief, or was it contrary to it? If it summed up the current theory, I'd call it mistaken and later disproved, but not pseudo. If that view were espoused *today*, I would call it junk science, along with indivisible atoms and a Newtonian universe.

These are "approximations" or "metaphors". Good enough to get you to work in the morning. Not good enough for Stephen Hawking.

The Chinese government has put in a lot of scientific research in acupuncture since the 1970s. Has those research proved the discipline as non-scientific? If not, what does it take to remove the pseudoscience label from accupuncture?

Specific uses of accupuncture have shown positive results in tests. The problem is that the only tests that worked were for relief of pain, which is an inherently subjective hard-to-measure thing, so small statistical successes don't mean much (as opposed to tests on things like Aspirin, where results are huge--as a friend of mine once put it, you shouldn't have to squint hard to see reality). Further, the theory behind accupuncture--flow of qi, all of that--is total nonsense; mostly unfalsifiable, and easily falsified where it isn't. If you want to know when "accupuncture" will be acceptable, define your terms: do you mean some specific use of a clearly defined procedure for a clearly defined problem with measurable results? Then name it, and do the tests. If it clearly works (and not just some small statistical subjective result), then that method will be accepted as a fully scientific method. If you mean the "theory" of accumpunture, the answer is "never", because those few aspects of it

that were scientifically testable failed, and the rest is just religious nonsense. --LDC

The definition of acupuncture as "pseudoscience" actually bothers me, simply because I do not know of any literature which claims that acupuncture defines itself as "scientific". My (to be fair, limited) knowledge of it tends to suggest that it does not attempt to defend itself in any way, it just goes on not giving a damn what science thinks. The term pseudoscience is generally reserved for belief systems that claim scientific backing when none is actually present (eg. dianetics, iridology).

I do not see the difference between the "Qi" energy (and related concepts) which underpin acupuncture and, say, the existence of God, Angels, etc which are regular features of any theological belief system. So in summary - if acupuncture is a belief system (with related practices) then it is not pseudoscience, BUT if it claims to be "scientific" then it is, because its therapeutic powers cannot be scientifically verified. That's my $0.02 - MB

-- possibly we want to file acupuncture as a Fringe science if anybody wants to flesh out that entry.

I would classify Skepdic as pseudoscholarship. They are pretty much written by one guy and often are pretty biased. should we be hesitant to link to an inferior source from here, even if its more comprehensive?

One vote for "Skepdic is generally pretty darn good".

Their hearts are in the right place, and they are pretty comprehensive, but the treatments of each topic are pretty shallow and openly biased. --LDC

Agreed - I think the text accompanying the link makes this clear. - MB

I re-instituted the word "factual" because that is a key defining element of a pseudoscience - they present themselves as being "factual".

Also Lee introduced the idea that a scientific theory that remains to be scientifically verified (ie - it is compatible with current evidence, but makes predictions not yet tested) constitutes pseudoscience. This is simply wrong - this is what is known as protoscience. A pseudoscience is characterised by its claims of accuracy and validation, when such claims are erroneous and/or deliberately misleading. - MB

Do you think so? When we read about claimants for James Randi's million dollar prize they often seem quite evasive about accuracy and validation.

Well then that is pseudoscience. If you are in accordance with the scientific method "as far as is possible", then you are working in protoscience. Pseudoscience is characterised by its attempts to circumvent the rules, or its claims of accuracy where such claims have not been (or cannot be) validated. If I say "here is a hypothesis, here is the supporting evidence, and here are the predictions based on it" then that is good scientific work waiting to be supported or refuted. If I say - "here is my theory and it is correct, so there!", then that is pseudoscience. - MB

What, exactly, do you feel is too "sweeping" about the definition, and how would you suggest changing it? It seems reasonable to me. --LDC

Ed, I don't think protoscience is actually an exception. It hasn't failed the definition, it just hasn't entered for it yet. -- sodium

LDC, sodium: At a glance, it is not easy to distinguish pseudoscience which "has failed to be validated" from protoscience which "has yet to be properly tested and either supported or refuted." Ed Poor

Yes - I misread the definition. It says "failed to be *validated* in accordance with," not "failed in accordance with," meaning any knowledge purporting to be scientific but not rigorously tested yet. Protoscience would (without your sentence) be pseudoscience until it was tested.

So ignore my previous comment - 2 errors in one day :-( -- sodium

You're right, though, that it's hard to distinguish sometimes. And that's for good reason: there isn't much to distinguish them except intent. "Protoscience" is often conjecture that can't be tested yet because of lack of technology or resources, or things currently undergoing testing, but that its proponents fully admit is speculative and intend to reject if those tests fail. Pseudoscience generally avoids testing, or uses bad tests, or uses techniques of rhetoric to support its contention with no intention to ever discard the theories for any reason. An experimental drug, for example, is a protoscience if its makers are currently undergoing good double-blind studies to determine if it works. An herbal remedy that is sold with testimonials (which are known to be invalid evidence) and which its sellers avoid doing good controlled studies on is pseudoscience. --LDC

NB: Science is defined as "any body of knowledge organized in a systematic manner" and as such Dianetics falls into the category of science regardless of popular opinion or accepted scientific method.

Moved here from the main page. I don't believe you are using an accurate def. of science. Please think through this, there are lots of things organized in a systematic manner (my banking statment for example) which are not sciences.

Mark - thanks for fixing that - the rules of "Dungeons and Dragons" are also a science under this definition. This is one of my pet articles, but as I'm presently in India I can't monitor the article closely. I'm mildly perturbed about the statement "parapsychology is on the border between proto and pseudo." I can't see any justification for this statement. Most parapsychology has been refuted completely - hence it is pseudoscience. Thoughts? - ManningBartlett

==

re "The motivations for the promotion of pseudoscience range from simple naivety about the methodological rigour of the scientific method, to deliberate deception for financial exploitation (e.g., ?)." The very specific reference to psychic surgery here suggests that this group's practitioners perform exclusively for financial exploitation. The range of motivation in this group is as varied as in any other group mentioned in this article. Some psychic surgeons have refused payment because they believed that such a motivation would limit their abilities. I plan to delete the example.
I hope to say more on this subject, but I shall tread very carefully so as to to maintain the neutral view. I don't really like the word 'pseudoscience' because of its implicit value judgements, but it will have to do for now until something better comes along. I can also live with the short definition in the first paragraph. I am especially pleased that the writer of that paragraph has not committed the logical falacy which claims that not proven means false. user:Eclecticology

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I continue to puzzle over how to fairly approach this topic where the comments of opponents tend to be just as pseudoscientific as the topic they try to attack. The article as it stands is full of gratuitous claims that some practice or other is pseudoscientific, as though merely making such a simple statement were all that was needed to establish that as fact. I like the general tone of the article as long as it is giving a broad outline of pseudoscience, and establishing broad criteria for examining the credibility of a particular status. After that it falls apart because people abandon and ignore the criteria they have just laid down.

One very important criterion is that someone who is broadly respected by the adherents of that practice must have made a claim (perhaps even implicitly) that it is scientific. How can we establish that something is pseudoscientific when nobody claimed ot to be scientific in the first place? The respected spokesperson concept is important, because it prevents us from basing our judgement of an entire subject on the claims of a local practitioner whose application may not even be consistent with the broader practice. See straw man

My proposal is that after an introductory section the article should include a brief comment about each mentioned practice. (Anything more would appropriately be in a separate article) A possible format for each might be:

Scapulomancy

• (Observation) What it is: An ancient chinese practice of divination by examining the pattern of cracks on animal shoulder blades when these were cast in a fire.
• (Hypothesis/Prediction) Claims: No current claims.
• (Verification) Analysis of Claims: Not applicable.
• (Provisional Evaluation) Conclusion: An abandoned ancient practice.

Eclecticology

Eclecticology, you are quite correct in stating that we should be careful about how we label things in this article. However, I disagree with your proposed solution.

Firstly, the NPOV policy suggests we shouldn't be trying to reach conclusions on anything. It's not for us to judge whether dianetics is pseudoscience or not. It's far better to have the main article on each subject examine any scientific claims in detail and let readers make up their own mind, rather than trying to reach a one-sentence opinion on the subject here.

What seems to have been most gravely wrong wrong with my approach to the subject is the use of the word "conclusions". Perhaps in the spirit of the steps outlined in the scientific method article I would have done better to use "Provisional evaluation" as the last heading of my outline. (See the revised format proposal at scapulomancy above.) I agree that none of the mentioned subject can be adequately discussed in the context of this article, but something more than a bare dismissive name in a list seems warranted. At least one should say enough to make the reader want to view the more detailed article.

As to the specific example of dianetics, it may be obvious that I am no supporter of the practice. There was, nevertheless, an interesting point arising from this example. The previous writer, after sticking it on the end of the paragraph deating with revelation and theology, arrived at the conclusion that dianetics was pseudoscientific. On the face of the situation I would have reached a different conclusion, but still not that it was scientific. I would rather have left it fall with the Bible into the realm of revelation and inspiration. Even Hubbard's own claim to be scientific doesn't pull it from that pit.

However, it is a fact that most scientists consider astrology, numerology, etc. as pseudosciences, and it's not a violation of the NPOV policy to say so.

I would change "most" to "many" or even "a large number" There is clearly opposition to the view or we wouldn't be having this discussion. In all likelyhood few scientists have ever given the matter enough serious consideration to have an informed opinion one way or the other. Using the fact that these people are scientists as an argument is just another form of logical fallacy.(q.v.)

• • It's a fact. I am a scientist (in training). I have worked with scientists from around the world, from a variety of cultural and religious backgrounds. Never have I heard a scientist regard the above practices as anything other than at best amusing nonsense and more often a way to take money from the gullible.

• • Why does it matter what scientists think, then? Because their profession is to determine the nature of the universe and the objects that inhabit it. They have a very long tradition and a highly evolved methodology to do so. Their track record, collectively, is outstanding. Finally, the scientific profession has, on many occasions, had to discard long-held ideas when they have turned out to be wrong. Plenty of scientists have investigated pseudoscientific ideas, and found them wanting. In fact, most scientists consider most such areas so thoroughly debunked that they consider that they have better things to do with their time.

The science is more important than the scientist. The argument, "Scientists say ...." tends to reverse that. There is little doubt about the general reputation that you establish about scientists, but reputation alone doesn't prove anything. Reputation may even be an adequate first hypothesis in any study; it is, after all, "falsifiable" within the understanding of that term in the scientific method.

If you are a biologist, you probably don't need to take it any further when it comes to the inner workings of neclear physics, and you are probably content to let others carry on the debate of wave vs. particle theories of matter. The biologist, however, is unlikely to engage in public pronouncements about nuclear physics. If a survey of scientists asks the question, "Do you believe in astrology?", the result is predictable. If it turns out that the survey is sponsored by a marketting firm, that also asks them if they eat Corn Flakes for breakfast, what can inferred from the statement, "Scientists who don't believe in astrology prefer Corn Flakes for breakfast?"

If you choose to join the battle, being a scientist does not absolve you from the scientific method.

Finally, there seems to be a need to narrow down pseudoscience to quackery that claims scientific credence and exclude quackery that rejects scientific methods and embraces personal endorsement as more compelling evidence. It's all still unscientific quackery and scientists are just as entitled to debunk it. --Robert Merkel

Regretably I had difficulty understanding what point you were trying to make in the first part of this paragraph. Some narrowing down of just what falls into pseudoscience would be useful. Perhaps a distinction needs to be made between the terms pseudoscientific, unscientific, and quackery. Pseudoscience would imply false claims of being scientific, unscientific may merely reflect a naïve reliance on anecdotal evidence, and quackery may imply a reckless application of pseudoscientific or unscientific concepts. (Applied vs. pure pseudoscience, if I may make such a parallel.) Yes, scientists are allowed to debunk pseudoscience, but as you have already said that should be discussed at the relevant article for the practice sought to be debunked. Eclecticology

Hence, I've removed your entry on dianetics here:

Dianetics

• What is it: A system invented by L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the Church of Scientology, to explain the workings of the human mind, and to offer ways of overcoming its difficulties.
• Claims: Hubbard made specific claims that it was scientific.
• Analysis of claims: Alleged evidence of the validity of these claims has not been made public.
• Conclusion: This is an idiosyncratic body of knowledge.

==

There have in many cases been rigorous scientific studies conducted in these areas which have failed to substantiate many of the claims.

This statement is overly broad after such a long list of diverse practices with varying levels of acceptance. Similar statements might be more appropriate in specific contexts.

I have removed "exobiology". Sure, it is mostly speculation at this point, but the Viking experiments and the examination of the Martian meteorite, for instance, were scientific, and the continued investigation of extremophile bacteria in an effort to determine the most extreme environments life might conceivably be found in, are science.

Sure, this field has attracted a huge number of quacks, but that doesn't mean the whole premise of scientific investigation of this area is wrong. --Robert Merkel

I put exobiology back on the list. Just before the list the criterion "fields of knowledge that many consider in varying extents to be pseudoscientific" is indicated. What you say could easily apply to several items on the list where the evidence has failed to support the existence of the processes in question without proving it false. The scientific method puts the burden of proof upon the proponents of unproved phenomenon. If we start exempting people's pet "sciences" from the list it will soon have nothing left. Eclecticology 07:31 Sep 19, 2002 (UTC)

I agree with Robert, and took it off again. Exobiology follows scientific method. It is not necessary for life outside the earth to exist for it to be a valid science. Proving, or disproving the existence of life in particular places, according to the scientific method, is part of it.--AN 07:45 Sep 19, 2002 (UTC)