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• Refining the administrator elections process
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• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
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Once again: topic ban of user:Kossack4Truth from Obama pages for review

OK. Briefly, Kossack4Truth (talk · contribs) is an agenda-driven single-purpose account on Barack Obama. He has been blocked 3 times in just over a month for edit-warring and disruption on those pages. After his most recent block, there was AN/I discussion which, I believe, supported a 4-6 month topic ban. Kossack4Truth promptly "retired", so I dropped the issue as moot.

As in the past when he's briefly laid low, his "retirement" was brief and he reactivated the account today by filing an iffy 3RR report, shopping the same complaint at AN/I. Not to mention rather odd comments: and claiming to other admins that he was never officially topic-banned (, ).

I believe there was and is ample justification and support for a 4-6 month topic ban, and was prepared to implement one after the prior discussion. Kossack4Truth evaded this by retiring. Since he is now active again, I've imposed the topic ban. I'm bringing it here for review and to see if there are substantial objections to the topic ban. Given that these threads uniformly deteriorate into a steel cage match between involved editors, I'd ask that editors actively editing the Obama page refrain from comment here to allow for potentially more objective input. MastCell  17:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk about arrogance. Unbelievable. First you try to get me banned. Then, rather than address the real source of the problem, you topic ban K4T and Then come here soliciting support, rather than even looking like you might consider taking action against the real source of the problem: the editors who keep baiting and provoking us. K4T did what he was supposed to do when he saw a problem. He gave an abusive editor awarning and was blocked three days for it. Now he comes to ANI and he gets a topic ban for it? Unbelievable. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll allow my recent posts at Talk:Barack Obama to speak for themselves without MastCell's spin. I've been completely cordial at Talk:Barack Obama, I've discussed the edits rather than the editors, and I haven't edit warred. I wasn't topic banned in the previous attempt. It's not just a claim. It's a fact. I notice your campaign to get community support for an indef block of WorkerBee74 was a miserable failure, and now you've turned your attention to me. MastCell, stop throwing your weight around in this direction and start paying attention to the ceaseless baiting and badgering coming from certain other editors. Show everyone the edit I've made on Barack Obama or Talk:Barack Obama since reactivating my account that justifies this unilateral action or revoke your topic ban. Go ahead, pick the one edit at Barack Obama or Talk:Barack Obama since reactivating my account that you find most offensive, post the whole edit here, and let uninvolved and truly neutral admins judge for themselves without your spin. Furthermore, I'm not a single purpose account. That accusation used to have some legs, but not any more. I've edited dozens of articles and welcomed dozens of new users.

Other admins are encouraged to take a very close look at my recent behavior and try to figure out how MastCell could possibly be justified in doing this. Kossack4Truth (talk) 17:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban of at least three months based upon the disruptive editing practices exhibited by K4T. "Retirement" is no excuse to dismiss earlier conversations and a consensus for such a sanction. Coming out of "retirement" to file a frivolous AN3 report, which was dismissed by four administrators (sorry to bust your bubble ThuranX), and then shop it around at ANI on an old thread indicates that you haven't given up your old habits a bit.

As evidenced in a prior ANI case, I voiced my support then for a topic ban as an uninvolved administrator, and I am voicing my support for it now. seicer | talk | contribs 17:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Fully support a topic ban; "retiring" to avoid sanctions does not magically undo the behavior that lead to the sanctions. A topic ban was appropriate then, it is still appropriate now. — Coren  17:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

No objections. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 17:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

IF K4T will sign on to the attempt to give clean slates, forget old feuds, and work as an honest broker for consensus that we spoke of above,, then I vote for a clean slate and let bygones be bygones. If he can't do that, then let the community impose whatever sanctions consensus seems fit to met out. Others who have engaged in misbehavior. Lots of editors could use a fresher start there, and he deserves no less. The atmosphere seems to be changing, and if he wants to be a part of that process, now that he is aware of it, great. If he does not, then I imagine your eagle eyes will be on him and he will quickly hang himself.Die4Dixie (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse the topic ban. As far as I was concerned the result of the last K4T topic-ban discussion was that he was placed under restriction. K4T's apparent attempt at evading sanctions by "retiring" makes matters worse in my view. I'd also like to remind involved users that MastCell asked for "editors actively editing the Obama page refrain from comment here." If you want wider input please allow those for us who are uninvolved to review this--Cailil 18:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
• This is a continuing battleground, and it needs to be cooled off. From what I've seen, K4T is a prime instigator in the battles; I'd support a topic ban through the elections. K4T notes above that he has been working on other articles and broadening his spectrum - this is a good opportunity to keep up that effort. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support until after the election. Good editors are spending too much time fighting over the same issue rather than being able to work on the rest of the article. At least one other WP:SPA needs to step back and take on other topics as well to broaden his Wiki horizons. Another editor has taken a recent interest. Please people, do not get hung up in one place only. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 18:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

:: I resent your characterization as unhealthy. Which part of civil is the inference. I request that you retract that statement, and I will assume that some momentary lapse has provoked it and charitably forget that it was made. Senseless provocation like that is gratuitous and can't possibly be a part of building an encyclopedia.Die4Dixie (talk) 18:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

For reference, Die4Dixie (talk · contribs) has just edited my comment up above. The context of the statement has been changed because of this. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 19:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

And they've just warned via a template for it--Cailil 19:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

And I responded to you there. As a new adminstrator, you should know better than to cleverly template an editor with my longevity .19:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

His reply is pretty poor and assumes bad faith. seicer | talk | contribs 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I see that my good faith efforts to work towards a consensus and peace making efforts on the page have been reduced to an "unhealthy interest". Pages that one chooses to edit are chosen by a principle of free association. I have no obligation to edit anything other than what I choose. there appears to be a bandwagon here. I removed an attack here, was templated, and the band wagon was cranked up. This behavior by three administrators, one recent, can only serve to elevate the level of wiki-drama that I and other editors have tried to dissipate on matters related to Obama.Die4Dixie (talk) 19:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I've noticed a recent trend to defend the Obama article against any incursion of criticism. There are/were at least 3 threads in the last ten days or so here on AN/I, plus who-knows-how-many elsewhere. (I didn't count every WP page to check.) WOrkerbee and K4T both have issues, but so does Lulu of the Lotus eaters, and she got off scott-free. There's a lot of bias showing on AN/I and at the Obama pages. Frankly, it really seems like the liberal bias we're so often accused of having is really showing. So many of these conflicts on the Obama page are because there's nothing negative there. I've looked, and EVERY single item of contention has been shrunk to a minimum. The more I look at it, the more I realize any criticism is white-washed or marginalized. A few editors are opposed to that, but they get constantly shouted down because Obama's got tons of internet savvy supporters, who are pushing criticism off the page. It's hard to see how this is defended when the major offense is INCIVIL behavior in light of the POV swaying going on. They may need a CIVILITY PROBATION, but to topic ban people who offer balance and dissenting opinions specifically during the election period, to 'keep the page quiet' shows an agenda is being pushed. Obama looks good against McCain without Wikipedians pushing things. If this were the other way around, a glistening McCain article, I have to say, I believe we'd be seeing a different result here. It may be societal, but when we see such a push going on, silencing the voices that speak out entirely is a black eye for Misplaced Pages. ThuranX (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse topic ban for K4T, as before. No need for the ongoing disruption. R. Baley (talk) 06:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• As suggested by myself back on 13 June 2008 , my position has not changed and I agree that a longer duration (of 4-6 months is warranted). Endorse topic ban. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

ABSOLUTELY NOT RESOLVED. MCMVOCALIST is the same HIGHLY involved admin in all of these Obama related threads. He closed out the last one, above on this page, in which K4T and others were accused of shit. He dismissed all the pro-Obama editor problems as not problems, then again sanctions those editors seeking to bring balanced criticism to the page. NCMVocalist is absolutely unqualified to neutrally close this section, Especially since his actions were to wait just two hours after a lengthy objection and close it in the position he has previously advocated. Neutral, previously uninvolved editors and admins are needed to review this material. Obama's page is not neutral, and the editors seeking to include balanced criticism are unable to do anything because the pro-Obama editors seek to whitewash all criticism. This is one of the most viewed pages on the project right now, and we are not meeting our responsibilities by keeping fair criticism off the page. I request, formally, that NCMVocalist not touch this thread again. He's got a conflict of interest and, at this point, an apparent vendetta against numerous editors seeking to include balanced criticism. It's a shame that some of Obama's supporters are out to make the rest of us look like partisans, when his good qualities will shien through anyway. but POV pushing needs to cease there. ThuranX (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Your request is denied. Please refrain from smearing me with any part of the title, 'highly involved admin' (a meritless accusation) - you need to take a break and become familiar with (or refamiliarise yourself with) WP:UNINVOLVED, first and foremost.

The ban has been imposed with the overall consensus of the community, with full endorsement by 8 uninvolved administrators. Kossack4Truth is welcome to appeal the topic ban in the future. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

ThuranX, you are incorrect. Ncmvocalist is not an administrator. Ncmvocalist, please stop archiving threads. Thank you. Risker (talk) 19:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly why the pages remain a giant mud pit. Restricting Kossack4Truth does not validate the behavior of every other editor on the page. I would be happy to look at other editors' behavior, but not as an excuse to avoid doing something about this particular disruptive user. This line of argument boils down to: "Yes, Kossack4Truth is disruptive, but so are some other people!" The correct response is to restrict this disruptive editor and move on to ask for evidence, in a separate thread, of disruption by other editors. MastCell  03:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh, some editors (and apparently a sysop) make major allowances for the continued trolling in these threads and refuse to accept that this is a noticeboard - not a complaints dept. This thread was very clearly labelled in a way to be about the conduct of Kossack4Truth, and there was consensus to pass the topic ban. Yet here we still are, tapping our feet at the editors (and sysop) who refuse to put up (as MastCell quite rightly puts it) "evidence, in a separate thread, of disruption by other editors." I no longer wonder why this entire page remains a mess. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Concur with MastCell. It is evident that there a number of disruptive editors in this topic not just one. However we are dealing with just one here in this thread - that does not mean we will ignore / condone bad behaviour by others. Please, if there is evidence of other parties actively engaging in disruption either open a thread here or follow normal RFC/U procedure so that uninvolved users and sysops can review it. The fact that other threads have been closed does not preclude a proper investigation into other users. With that in mind I would move to close this thread and this issue regarding K4T without prejudice to other threads about problematic behaviour by other editors--Cailil 13:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not how AN/I works. If a student gets into a fight, you don't want the principal punishign just one of the two, you want both punished. When one kid runs to the teacher crying 'he hit me', do you want the teacher to say, 'yeah? you've got detention' and consider the matter settled? No. You expect the teacher to get both sides of the story and act accordingly, usually with detentions for both students. IF we only handle K4T here, we risk never having an opportunity to handle the biases which K4T is discussing, because we keep shutting down those with other POVs. This sort of resolution would result in bully squads on pages, which is already happening on Obama, as I've noted before. A group all attacks anyone who wants any criticism till the new guy invokes IAR and adds it, then gets accused of an edit war, gets blocked for going against consensus, when the consensus is to cover up Obama's critics. The new editor is blocked, and the sick behavior of the pro-obama gang is reinforced, assuring that they'll more confidently run the same dance again. This dance against K4T comes just days after running the same dance on WorkerBee74. Our 'job' here is neutral articles, not pushing 'our guy' forward by wiping his page of problems. To ONLY deal with K4T here, and not investigate what's behind it, is to allow this abuse to continue and grow into systemic bias. ThuranX (talk) 17:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

ThuranX said:

There's a lot of bias showing on AN/I and at the Obama pages. Frankly, it really seems like the liberal bias we're so often accused of having is really showing. So many of these conflicts on the Obama page are because there's nothing negative there. I've looked, and EVERY single item of contention has been shrunk to a minimum. The more I look at it, the more I realize any criticism is white-washed or marginalized. A few editors are opposed to that, but they get constantly shouted down because Obama's got tons of internet savvy supporters, who are pushing criticism off the page. .....It may be societal, but when we see such a push going on, silencing the voices that speak out entirely is a black eye for Misplaced Pages. ThuranX (talk) 06:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

ThuranX, you're mistaken. Misplaced Pages is about consensus-based editing, not 'ignore all rules' editing. One's misconduct does not legitimize another's. Kossack4Truth has engaged in misconduct and measures have been imposed to prevent that misconduct that has the community concerned. ANI is not the place to deal with essentially content issues (for support adding criticism about Obama, or for opposing adding criticism about Obama) that should be dealt with through Article RFC or Mediation, or for forum-shopping. Although Risker (in my opinion) exercised poor judgement in reopening this thread, that's besides the point. If you have evidence of editorial misconduct by other parties in this dispute, why do you refuse to post it in a separate thread? The separate thread would not preclude the consideration of mitigating factors (if any) for the measure imposed here - I'm not sure why you think otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

So your attitude is 'Yes, others did bad stuff, but since Mastcell filed this about K4T, we cannot and will not look at others, even though they're clearly part of the problem'? That's hardly the way to get anything productive done. Further, if I have to go off and file a separate thread, I'll do so, even to the point of being K4T's voice in all that. That's right, I'll go so far as being banned for meatpuppetry, if that's what it takes to keep this thread, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, open until we get some real resolution. Ncmvocalist's attitude of willful myopic behavior persists only with the tacit approval of a pro-obama cabal who seem intent of one by one reipping down all opposition. I'm fucking disgusted by this attitude, and Ncmvocalist's not the only voice by a long shot. To look at ONLY K4T because Mastcell named ONLY K4T is asinine, and Ncmvocalist should lose his admin bits for this vendetta attitude. ThuranX (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, Ncmvocalist is not an admin. –xeno (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hrmm. Then he ought to quit closing all the threads related to Obama troubles as resolved and making declarative judgments and so on. Preempting discussions and so on certainly makes him appear as an admin. He needs to refrain from closing any more threads about Obama related topics and any involving Editors tied to such articles, like WB74, K4T, LotLE, and so on. ThuranX (talk) 22:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Any person with a sound mind will not leap to the ludicrous conclusion they'll be banned for meatpuppetry for opening a separate thread at the request of the community, unless they have chronic unfounded assumptions of bad faith. I therefore think you have personal issues you need to deal with first. Almost everyone who has responded here wants to resolve this dispute as effectively as possible, but your persistent shouting is certainly unhelpful. If you have evidence of individual editors disrupting the article there, or even affecting Kossack4Truth's misconduct that brought on this topic ban, we're openly welcoming you to put evidence in a new thread that deals with that editor - I'm certainly interested into looking into it, and so is the community. This was archived as it was about Kossack4Truth and there are moves to close this thread again. All I've seen from you here so far is chronic unfounded assumptions of bad faith against both myself, and the community, and no sign of actually looking into the dispute or having any intent on posting evidence in a separate thread (as opposed to shouting and demanding everyone else to follow your orders) - all it does is further justify why this will be closed soon. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Lots of hot air there, and accusations, but little substance. Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't try archiving right after posting that. There's plenty of evidence of the problems there, and you should know, you've jumped into every report on AN/I about that stuff, loudly shouting and hand-waving that there's nothing to see here, just evil anti-Obama people trying to PVP up the article. Go look at recent threads about Workerbee74, and LotLE. and other threads about Obama, including the subpages specifically about Obama pages. The declarations of a problem of a lack of criticism repeat extensively. and you're at a lot of those, saying there's nothing to see here. As I've said before:leave the closing of these thigns to admins, since you actually aren't one. ThuranX (talk) 14:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Correction. He used to be an administrator, in his former incarnation as User:Mercury. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Correction of correction: Mercury is now NonvocalScream, not User:Ncmvocalist. They are different. —Kurykh 00:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Section break 1

I haven't researched the history so I cannot speak for motives or what caused what to happen. Anyone that denies that WP has a liberal bias doesn't understand WP's bad image on the internet. WP is not seen as an unbiased or reliable. We need to improve on this.

Mr. Obama's article does need re-write. There are too many flaws to start. Subtle bias is one as well as the choice of material covered. Unfortunately, this makes Obama look bad to the astute observer (but may fool the casual reader). This is a pity since Obama is a historical figure and the presumptive next President of the U.S.

I call for admins to try to bring civility to the article and to start a new principle for the article, i.e. neutral consideration of edits is very important in this case and that counting votes is flawed since Obama has more supporters than the other guy and every supporter (whether of Obama or the other guy) is sort of a meatpuppet of other supporters. So if 60% of editors say "McCain is Bush", that still wouldn't be WP material even though there would be a consensus. Presumptive (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Support wholeheartedly Kossack4Truth is a clearly agenda pushing SPA and needs to be topic banned. It does not matter that other SPAs are there on the project. K4T has had 3 prior blocks for this exact same thing. He's run out of second chances. We can deal with the other editors too, but that does NOT mean that we should ignore K4T. ⇒SWATJester 08:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Given that over 3 days there's been near unanimous support for the Topic Ban, I believe that it should be implemented at this time. ⇒SWATJester 08:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It was implemented on 26 July 2008. This should've been closed at that point too, but Risker decided to re-open it based on what ThuranX said. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Wah wah wah, NCMVocalist. SwatJester, good, let's get on to that part, where we can examine multiple reports from Wikidemo about Lulu of the Lotus Eaters and SCJessey. Lets also examine all the other slow edit wars going on there, and issue topic bans liberally. Frankly, that page needs all the current warriors topic banned, so a whole new crew can get in there. Most notable is the constant opposition to any criticism of the candidate, citing BLP, no matter how much verifiable criticism on a topic is presented. The edit warring seems most intense between those who seek to add verifiable criticism and those who seek to strip the article of all criticism. What we have here is a major problem for wikipedia's credibility. How long till some newscaster on a slow news day decides to 'report' on how wikipedia covers the candidates? let's deal with this now, in this thread, and not play games about waiting for reports. If we do, I can predict the outcome: Four 'anti-criticism' editors will be seen to have agitated one 'pro-criticism' editor till they can report him. NCMVocalist will declare him guilty, then hover till a block is imposed, and immediately close the thread. I"ll ask about the behavior of the other four. And this will repeated for months and months. Two editors in favor of criticism are already banned from the page. How many more will be banned before we realize we have to deal with this better? Or will we just keep banning until the election, because so many wikipedians lack the ethics and moral fiber to separate their love of a candidate and their responsibilities as editors? Right now, I see a coordinated protection of Obama's page because a lot of people want to see the guy get elected. I see a lot of editors deliberately deciding that it's so important for him to win that their own convictions can be set aside, and so they game the rules, shouting BLP to preclude any criticism. Let's sort all this out now. ThuranX (talk) 14:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Will you kindly cut it out, and not assume bad faith or drag me into this? This discussion is an administrator's ask for other eyes on a topic ban instituted on a disruptive editor. The ban was upheld, and that's that. Yet you're chastising me for my contributions elsewhere on this board. As one of the most frequent, vociferous, and goal-oriented ones on this board of late (you are directly advocating for topic bans, upholding or overturning administrative decisions, etc.), you should know that bringing legitimate behavioral concerns and requests for administrative help here, rather than fighting it out on the article page or talk page is what we're supposed to do. Positioning the Obama pages as a pro-Obama / anti-Obama battleground rather than an attempt to write the best encyclopedia article possible and avoid disruption to the article only takes things in a more contentious direction. Wikidemo (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Given the number of threads about the Obama pages lately, it's clear that it is a battleground, and that a wider solution is needed. Advocating for proactive attention before we run through the game of attrition is hardly a bad thing. Otherwise, we wind up with a farcical Obama page. Nothing gets done on that page, it takes an AN/I thread to see change, mostly because that results in someone getting banned or blocked, allowing the other side to run roughshod over whatever consensus or objections were raised. I'm simply trying to get the larger problem solved. But since everyone here would rather whitewash and cover up on that page, I'll just wait for the next AN/I and point out the gaming again and again each time it comes up. ThuranX (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we agree that there are serious issues with the editing on Obama pages which are not limited to Kossack4Truth. If I could make a suggestion: instead of waiting for the next thread, collect a handful of diffs and make a case about the editor, editors, or editing behaviors which you feel are contributing most to the problem. I am honestly interested in improving the editing environment surrounding this high-profile featured article - otherwise I wouldn't bother. As a second suggestion, I believe there's consensus for the topic ban at this point, and I think this thread is taking an unproductive turn toward back-and-forth personalized argumentation. Let's all step back from that aspect. MastCell  17:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There is consensus for a topic ban in relation to Kossack4Truth, which he was notified of on 26 July 2008. Any actions on behalf of other disruptive editors at any Obama-related page should be dealt with in a new thread. There is nothing more that can be said in this particular thread that hasn't been rehashed here or at the prior threads regarding Kossack4Truth, and there is little to no hope that such a topic ban can be reversed based upon the comments given above. With that, I am suggesting that if you have an issue with another editor on Obama-related pages, bring it up in a separate thread. seicer | talk | contribs 18:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

the problem is that detaching EACH editor's behavior weakens each case, leaving a handful of 'nothing to see heres' which only come together if seen in context and as a whole, but I get the point. Shut up and love Obama. ThuranX (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The counterargument, of course, is that if each editor's defense is "but look what HE did!", then it quickly becomes impossible to sort anything out. Regardless of whether any other editor was misbehaving, Kossack4Truth's behavior was unacceptable, and hence a sanction warranted. Yes, long-term patterns of subtle abuse are difficult to present succinctly. But I would suggest that this establishes a precedent for dealing with disruption. That precedent can usefully be applied to other editors. I don't see how a topic ban for Kossack4Truth "weakens" the case against any other disruptive editor - in fact, I think a presentation that focuses on a specific disruptive user with a specific proposal on how to deal with them is the only way to proceed. Trying to sort out dozens of editors and problems all at once is a recipe for disaster. We need to deal with this in bite-sized chunks - if you'd like to present one, I'd honestly be quite receptive. MastCell  18:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but isn't it obvious, Mr. MastCell? The last guy who tried that was instantly topic-banned, and his thread was instantly archived by Ncmvocalist (who is not an administrator). It takes a lot of time to gather up all the diffs you're requesting, and the reward appears to be impalement with another one of your lightning bolts. You have very, very effectively given the Misplaced Pages Seal of Approval to whatever LotLE, Scjessey and Wikidemo want to do with Barack Obama, and whatever they want to say to or about anyone who gets in their way. Nobody wants to step out in front of your lightning bolts after they see what happened to the last guy who tried. Nice work. Curious bystander (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you might be interested to learn that they're already calling me a sockpuppet. Why am I not surprised? Curious bystander (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well said, CB. The ground is still smoldering where K4T used to be standing, and MastCell wants somebody to stand in the same spot and do the same thing? I'll get right on that ... WorkerBee74 (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Inevitably, with the slow news days of late summer upon us, some journalist working a political beat is going to do a story about how Misplaced Pages refuses to allow any criticism or controversy to be added to the biography about Barack Obama (while bashing George W. Bush and Tony Blair like a pair of drums), and blocks anyone who tries. It will be described as positive proof of the left-wing bias here. Such a story might be easy to dismiss if Newsmax does it, but what about Salon or The Washington Post? Kossack4Truth (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. Alternately: consider that anyone can edit here, we have no editorial control, our mechanisms for dealing with abusive editing are cumbersome, and it's remarkably easy for someone to sign up a number of sock/meatpuppet accounts to push a narrow electioneering agenda. Given those seemingly crippling handicaps, one might view our articles on Barack Obama and John McCain as remarkably sober, balanced, and neutral. More to the point, I think Lar said it best. If there were any indication that any of your accounts had any real interest in the encyclopedia beyond pushing negative talking points on the Obama articles, you might have an easier time of it. For next time, consider also that jumping into an AN/I discussion to support each other on remarkably familiar terms within 7 hours of your account creation tends to set off sockpuppet alarms. MastCell  00:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't jump to any conclusions as you are so prone to do, Mr. MastCell. I can read, and Misplaced Pages is a very user friendly place for those who haven't yet attempted to challenge the WP:OWNers of an article. All I needed to do was follow all the link that had been provided, which led me to another link, which led me to the conclusion that the sockpuppet allegation against WB74 had never been proven. It doesn't take seven hours to do that. It doesn't even take seven minutes. Curious bystander (talk) 00:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

User:SLJCOAAATR 1

Myself and A Man in Black have been harassed by him for a while, due to conflicts at various talk pages. He also thinks we are both the same person (just because we edit the same places, and disagree with him). I've brought this up to an admin, here: User_talk:Xenocidic#User:SLJCOAAATR_1_causing_problems_still, which caused the admin to leave a note. The note didn't stop the user. See User_talk:SLJCOAAATR_1#Comment for more information. His user page here: User:SLJCOAAATR_1#Wiki_Friends.2FAllies_in_Editing, right by my name on his user page: "So totally AMIB's alt!". Also see: for more proof Skeletal just seemingly ignored what the admin said. Other links (which were posted on the admin's talk page, before the admin left a note on his talk page), include: and . So besides the accustations, poor attitude, insults and bad faith, he talks about hacking people. I've tried talking to him a few times in the past, but he wont listen. I'm simply fed up with his behavior and his poor attitude. I've tried to ignore it, but he responds to just about every post I do with a rude comment or an accustation. When he's not doing that, he's posting on his friends talk pages with the same type of thing. RobJ1981 (talk) 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Fun stuff. I'm giving him a little warning and pointing him at WP:COOL. That should help, but a block isn't in order quite yet, I don't think (but I find I'm a bit soft with the blocking...). I might watchlist the page as well, but I think I'd need to expand how many changes it shows... Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 02:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm SLJ's friend, and the only reason why he's popping his lid is because AMIB's getting away with murder. If you look through the WT:WikiProject Video games archives on the talk page, you'll see him swearing his head off, also on the talk page of List of characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (games), he swore to me when I was pointing out evidence that he didn't know that much about a group of articles and shouldn't have made major edits on something he doesn't know that much about. If anyone deserves blocking it's him. I'm not saying his edits were in "bad-faith", I'm saying he didn't know enough about the subject at hand. And why wasn't SLJ informed about this? If a user has a chance of getting blocked he has the right to try and explain himself/herself and prove himself/herself innocent. As for the case of suspected sock-puppetry, why can't he suspect that someone's a sock-puppet? Or are you saying it's bad to try and prove someone's going against Misplaced Pages policy?Fairfieldfencer FFF 12:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks to Xeno for directing me here!

Rob, once again, before trying to get rid of me (Which you keep denying) take a look at the full story. All you've done here, is try to build a puzzle with 10 out of 100 pieces, read a newspaper article that has white-out spilled over 5 out of 7 paragraphs, etc., etc., etc. And again, you've proven my point further. AMIB & Co. are allowed to editwar, swear/curse, be uncivil to users, etc. BUT, the second me, or anyone oppossing AMIB & Co. does, it's the end of the world. Some of you have even gone as far as pleading for help. As for my suspection of you being a sockpuppet of AMIB, sure, I don't have any proof that you are, but, I don't have proof that you aren't either. And the fact that you two never post anywhere near the same time period makes me all the more suspicious. Good day Rob, and read the full headline in the paper today. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You just need to calm down, instead of being so angry all the time just because we disagree with you and your friends. Yes, AMIB has sworn and done some edit warring. However, I haven't, so don't group me in with him (just because we both don't agree with you). Also, what is all this AMIB and co. about? I don't see anyone regularly disagreeing with you, except for myself and AMIB. Provide some evidence, otherwise it looks like you are overreacting on the matter. All I've done is disagree with you, and you got upset and had to drag it this far. I've dealt with your false accustations, uncivility, bad faith attitude long enough. As for the sockpuppet nonsense: there is a check user feature on Misplaced Pages. Ask someone to do it on me and him, I have nothing to hide. Once it's done, then you can stop that nonsense. Anyway, here is some new links that show his continued poor attitude: , and . The first is an accustation I'm lying, the second is him yelling at people and the third is another false accustation. Also note: Lifebaka posted a note on his talk page, which he obviously ignored. He hasn't changed his behavior, dispite the fact many people have told him to calm down, keep his cool and so on. Lastly, making a section here isn't about blocking. It's about getting help with a user and problem. So stop assuming I'm out to get you blocked, because that's far from the truth. I just want you to calm down, instead of harassing myself and AMIB, as well as anyone else that disagrees with you now (or in the future). All these garbage accustations and comments towards me need to stop. RobJ1981 (talk) 22:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Another link: , more nonsense. I have never once said I wanted him blocked, he is just assuming. I'm very sick of this. RobJ1981 (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

AMIB & Co. is simply what I call the group of people that are for the merging, as AMIB seems to be the leader. Sheesh. As for over-reacting? Lololololololololololololololol...Can't...stop...laughing!!! AHAHAHAHA!!! Rob, the only over-reacting here, is you. lol. Like I keep telling you, don't build the puzzle with only 1 tenth of the pieces. Before you suddenly came into action, AMIB was harrasing all of us, and using VERY foul laguage with us all, and whenever someone told him to relax, he only got more violent. When you came into play, he started playing the "Innocent little boy" act. If you don't believe me, I'll dig up some proof. So, seriously, Rob, relax, and find the missing pieces of the puzzle. K? Thx. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and, Rob, you should've told me about this, instead of letting an admin tell me. It's "uncivil" as you would say. :P Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and the hacking, that has nothing to do with this. See Triple F's talk page, for more information on that. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 00:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A neutral hand to guide SLJetc. away from treating WP as a battleground might be nice. I am obviously not the right one for that job, for numerous reasons that should be apparent. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

More links of his rude behavior: and . Then there is this: , instead of responding to my comment, he just blanks most of his talk page. Then there is this: , more uncivil behavior. I think someone needs to mentor him, and let him know how policies work here. This isn't the place to just attack whoever you want. Stop spouting on about puzzle pieces. Whatever happened in the past, doesn't give you the right to be rude to me. I've disagreed with you, and agreed with a person you hate: that does NOT justify your attitude towards me. RobJ1981 (talk) 04:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've found it more than obvious that you're trying to get rid of me. Stop denying it. Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 05:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Get over it. I want you to settle down and leave me the hell alone. This has nothing to do with getting you blocked. Either stop being paranoid about it, or LEAVE ME ALONE already. I'm not going to stop denying something I'm not even doing. I have every right to disagree with you about how articles are edited, you just wont accept it in a mature manner. RobJ1981 (talk) 05:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If he needs a mentor on how to keep his cool, I'd be happy to do that. But I'm not all that familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, just good mannered. All he needs to do is before typing, is just take a little think about what he's putting in and if it will get him in trouble or not. You are overreacting about Rob SLJ, and AMIB is no gang leader. Randomran supports the merge and he seems a pretty good guy. So what if these articles are merged? There's always the Sonic News Network. You could even copy all the info from Misplaced Pages and stick it there, so you've saved the articles.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Now he is resorting to abusive edit summaries: . I would've put a template on his page, but I know it wouldn't have helped. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that he labels any user who does not completely agree with him as an "enemy" is a definite sign of immaturity on his part. Its friggin' Misplaced Pages, not World War III. Jonny2x4 (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at his recent edits (the user page ones as a big example). He has gone over the edge now. I placed a no personal attacks final warning on his talk (which he responded poorly to). The next step will be reporting to Administrator intervention against vandalism. His attitude is out of hand, and there's been more than enough attempts to help him out. He just shrugs them off, and continues to attack people. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Johnny, I've only labed TWO people as my enemy. AMIB for all of his "Oh, it's fancruft" bullcrap, and Rob, with his constant over-reacting, and whining like a little kid. I take it Rob. I just can't! PLEASE, block me, so I don't have to deal with either of you anymore! PLEASE! Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Acting rude to people is unacceptable, and shouldn't be happening. Your user space isn't a place to post attacks towards people. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's like I'm not begging to be blocked... Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R. 20:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Another link: . When is something going to be done? RobJ1981 (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Now. I've blocked him for a week. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point! Labeling anyone an "enemy" just because they rejected your in-universe fictional (read non-existing) character biography of a minor Sonic character (or whatever it is that you edit) is completely silly. I know you're only 14, but still. Jonny2x4 (talk) 22:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Quit it with the ageist attitude Jonny. That's called discrimination in my book.Fairfieldfencer FFF 07:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd still appreciate it if someone uninvolved and experienced with Misplaced Pages (although I appreciate the offer, FFF) could take this user under their wing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I tried, but maybe not hard enough. –xeno (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This issue isn't completely over. There is this: . So even during a block, he is being rude. Plus there is this: User_talk:SLJCOAAATR_1#Mission. He's gathering a bunch of friends to "prove people wrong", which is bad faith. Discussions have been going on about the Sonic articles, but his friends choose to either fight with others, edit war and be uncivil, instead of actually discussing things civilly. Their attitude of "We are right, and we will throw it in your faces once we finish working in sandbox on the articles" is very poor. RobJ1981 (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

RobJ1981 do yourself a favor and simply stop looking at his talk page for the duration of the block. To be honest, if he wants to prove people wrong by writing better articles I'm all for that! Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, but he needs to stop talking about me (as well as AMIB). He is acting like it's a war. I shouldn't be mentioned in many of his talk page posts, period. Xeno left several messages on his talk page about this, which SLJ doesn't seem to be listening to. See User_talk:SLJCOAAATR_1#Triple_F for the complete discussion. RobJ1981 (talk) 21:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

He seems to find it quite hard to stop talking about you so I've helped him out by protecting his talk page for the duration of the block. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Problematic user Rjecina

• User:Rjecina seems to be engaged in problematic behaviour for quite a while - persistant habit of personal attacks against other editors, edit warring, deletion of referenced material, removal of warning tags related to this, repeated personal attacks and disqualifications of other editors in edit summaries, refusal to talk to other editors etc. Could someone please try to cool him down and make him follow the basic wikipedia rules. Joka (talk) 11:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Evidence, please. Also note that this user has few, if any, edits, and that User:Rjecina has a recent history of being stalked by brand-new accounts. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina has in particular made offensive remarks against me (calling me "nationalistic editor", "nationalistic SPA account" etc. He repeatedly removed my warnings (related to these remarks, and also related to removal of valid referes) , . He repeatedly removes valid references, in particular, article Srbosjek that has been nominated for deletion (he has asked User:DIREKTOR to nominate the article as evident from their talk page, but this user has honourably admited that returned references are valid and prove the item existed; similar thing happens in article Miroslav Filipović‎ and Petar Brzica - for instance, he puts misleading information in edit summaries, saying that only english language references are valid , and keeps removing valid references despite being warned of the wikipedia policies (and srbosjek article has been kept since references provided have been deemed credible by wikipedia comunity; similarly, DIREKTOR has refused to follow him in other articles in which he is edit warring despite the references provided). He seems to be thinking every one user who is restoring the references is one user who he is obsessed with; that he is engaged in edit war with some users (like User:J. A. Comment who he has slandered claiming he is a banned user), some of whom might also be problematic, is certainly no excuse for this incivil behavior. I have not been editing wikipedia since last year when I put references to Srbosjek, and recent deletion proposal has drawn my attention to this again - I am certainly not a new user, as I have edited wikipedia occasionaly since 2003 (I have added some photos that are now deleted and described them, and was more active in the past as evident from my talk page); in any case, no editor should be exposed to personal attacks, slander, accusations, and referenced material should not be removed like that. Joka (talk) 13:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

My two red cents - from you can see this

Also, his harassment of other users is already noticed by an administrator and proper warning is given here , which reads:

You, however, Rjecina, are very clearly engaging in a campaign of harassment in order to get as many opposing editors blocked as possible. You're apparently even keeping a list of trophies (). I'll wait for comments from others here, but I'm seriously considering handing out some fresh sanction under WP:ARBMAC against you at this point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, see from the archive where Rjecina was harrasing others - baselessly claiming that the others are someone's sock-puppets:

• Procrustes_the_clown: , Marechiel, Votec: , Mike Babic:

Removal of references and complete contributions without any explanation, or on baseless accusiations that these contributions were made by banned users:

• Srbosjek: , Ljubo Milos: , Miroslav Filipovic: , Petar Brzica:

--66.217.131.99 (talk) 16:02, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: two IPs added the previous comment: this is the first IP's only edit on Misplaced Pages, the second IP deleting the first one's signature has one more edit from 2006.

Also note: in the case of Mike Babic see the diff:

Probably unnecessary, case is obvious. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

which is also confirmed by another admin.

So please check the diffs above. Squash Racket (talk) 16:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that it is the same anon user, who is editing from dynamic IP; I have noticed that user in the 66.xxxxx range is one of the people who Rjecina is warring with so my guess is that it is that person; certainly, there are a few users that Rjecina has been harassing for a while; I only got involved in this after noting that srbosjek is up for deletion again, and got attacked by Rjecina - his issues with other editors should not be excuse for attacking me or anyone indeed, and comments from people who he was edit warring with for quite a while before are indeed helpful here; my strongest objection is to removal of warnings and personal attack-type edit sumaries, that I have experienced, but certainly Rjecina issues go much deeper. Disruptive behaviour like that seems to go against anyone who disagrees with his removals of sourced material. Joka (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me see.... User Joka has not edit Misplaced Pages 11 months (his edits in Template:The Holocaust are reverted with RFC). After all that time he is going to wikipedia to start deletion discussion and shortly after that to harass me and other users from Croatia (user DIREKTOR and Jesuislafete ). It is funny that this nationalistic SPA account is deleting article where every statement is confirmed by source and then write vandal warning on other users talk pages because of sources deletion (can this be called NPOV ?)!!!!

My question about deletion discussion is how this user has discovered discussion ?? I am ulmost 100 % sure that he is puppet but we need evidence...

Only reason why I have not asked banning of this user like other harass accounts which are attacking my edits from 9 July ( PravdaRuss and his puppets) is that user Joka is old nationalistic SPA account. Now this mistake can be changed.... Only edits of this account in all 2008 are revert of my edits and warning on my talk page and talk pages of users which support me against his attacks--Rjecina (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I addition to above counted harassments I would like to add - Paulcicero and Roramaster - see Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Roramaster. This person Rjecina never apologize to any of them. As to the series of articles (Srbosjek, Magnum Crimen, Petar Brzica, Miroslav Filipovic, Ljubo Milos) - Rjecina never committed any piece of human knowledge to these articles nor improved their quality otherwise. Rjecina kept removing any contribution of any user - 'supporting' his actions by some frivolous excuses for over more than three months - at the same time attacking contributors as bad persons. If he ever tried to behave this way anywhere else - say if it were Encyclopaedia Brittannica - he would be removed, if not after such first attempt - then after the second one, for sure - from the editorial board for good. I wonder how it is possible that no one from the Misplaced Pages administration did not sanction this unethical and irrational behavior? In addition to the above - I'm just curious - is this Squash Racket twin brother of Rjecina i.e. his sock-puppet? How come that similar nonsense came from a 'different' account?--66.217.131.62 (talk) 02:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear five-edit IP, you should collect evidence and ask for a Checkuser if you have insecurities regarding my more than 6000 edits on Misplaced Pages. Don't be "just curious".

Exactly what did you see as "nonsense" in my comment above (especially in light of yours)? Squash Racket (talk) 03:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Your point is that users:Roramaster, Marechiel, Mike Babic, Votec and Procrustes the clown are good accounts and I am bad ??? First 3 of this accounts are editing with help of puppets (Roremaster , IP editing for Marechiel and Mike Babic). Votec is very odd and disruptive account and Procrustes the clown for example in article about killed Serbian prime minister Zoran Đinđić write about traitor which is ploting "with the American government to overthrow the Serbian and Yugoslav governments" (Slobodan Milošević government) with help of Serbia gangs ("Surcin gang") .
  • I am very interested to discover who is puppeteer of this harass accounts !--Rjecina (talk) 03:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Taekwondo and JJL

A rather difficult situation has been playing out on the Talk:Taekwondo page over recent months, and I'd welcome administrators' comments on how best to proceed:

Context: The Taekwondo article has a history section in which theories concerning the martial art's origin are cited: that taekwondo is of Korean origin, that it's of Japanese origin, and that its origins are a mingling of influences. Edit wars and protracted debates have focused on this section, with the two extreme positions being represented by User:JJL and User:Manacpowers. JJL asserts that taekwondo is essentially Japanese karate and that no reliable sources say otherwise; Manacpowers asserts that taekwondo is Korean, and that sources support that.

Problem: Gaming the system. While neither have comported themselves well, JJL has been particularly disruptive by questioning the appropriateness and reliability of nearly every source that presents the Korean position. This usually takes the form of asserting that the source doesn't meet WP:RS, doesn't satisfy WP:NPOV, that its author is unqualified or biased, or that its inclusion is inappropriate under a host of Misplaced Pages guidelines (WP:UNDUE, WP:SOURCES, WP:NONENG, etc.), sometimes a bit rudely. While raising questions is fine, the volume and intensity of such questions (and the effort required to respond to them) has ground productive editing nearly to halt and to me suggests an effort to game the system.

I, User:Omnedon, User:Nate1481 and other editors have sought compromise and have tried our best to accommodate JJL and to address the points he raises. The position JJL supports is presented neutrally in the page along with the others and is backed by reliable sources, some of which I researched and added myself. However, he won't stop debating and seems to have as his goal the preferred placement of the Japanese view above the opposing "myth". I'm happy to do anything I can to ensure a fair and well-cited presentation, but months of discussion and two attempts at mediation have so far been fruitless, and he seems no closer now to acknowledging opposing theories than when we began.

What is an appropriate step at this point? I welcome any assistance! Thanks, Huwmanbeing ☀★ 14:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid things are now turning a bit hostile, with JJL trying to characterize me as a belligerent. (The latest is in this thread.) Things are certainly spiraling and I'm at a loss to know how to proceed! Thanks, Huwmanbeing ☀★ 20:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Help please!?! Official mediation has been tried twice (once stalled, once a party refused to participate) and I am running out of ideas, informal refereeing has been attempted by myself and Huwmanbeing but I have been sucked in to the debate to some extent, we can't get both sides to see use as neutral at the same time, if we say some one might have a point, the response it that we are obviously espousing the POV exclusively. Protection expires on 1st of August and an edit war will happen unless we can get some help. This has previously spilled onto other Korean and Japanese martial arts articles and likely will again. --Nate1481(/_c) 08:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Large amount of Rangeblocks by Raul654

I have notified Raul654 (talk · contribs) and two other checkusers about this thread. I didn't contact him first because frankly I didn't think it would do much good, as I've expressed concerns about blocking patterns by Raul.

Raul has been blocking a simply ghastly amount of IPs in order to try to snuff out blocked Scibaby (talk · contribs). I've already expressed concern before that Raul is misusing his administrator tools with people he has a content dispute with (the thread was duly ignored: please note this does not include Scibaby, a sockpuppeteer). However, this blocking is simply above the pale; I don't have a checkuser tool, but I do see the several requests for unblock-auto affected by this every day, and I do have an IP range contribution tool which shows other editors on most of these ranges.

Range blocks include: /16:

1. 72.254.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
2. 207.67.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
3. 72.62.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
4. 68.27.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
5. 72.61.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
6. 198.172.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
7. 128.241.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
8. 72.58.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
9. 70.6.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
10. 205.212.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
11. 99.204.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
12. 99.203.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
13. 99.200.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
14. 66.215.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by Raul.
15. 68.26.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
16. 207.195.128.0/17 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
17. 66.215.64.0/18 - 1 year, AO ACB, ACB overturned.
18. 207.195.224.0/19 - 1 year ACB
19. 209.59.48.0/20 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
20. 99.204.37.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
21. 72.62.103.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
22. 68.27.123.0/24 - 1 year ACB
23. 205.212.78.0/24 - 1 year ACB
24. 128.241.109.0/24 - 1 year ACB
25. 71.196.216.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
26. 209.59.44.0/24 - 1 year ACB
27. 64.215.225.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
28. 207.67.151.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
29. 209.59.56.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
30. 207.195.244.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
31. 130.94.134.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
32. 128.241.107.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB

This is a lot of IP addresses, and it only includes the ones designed to get Scibaby (there are others that have been problems, such as 213.249.0.0/16 - 1 year, overturned by the Office).

I believe these IP ranges should be unblocked. WP:RBI works best when dealing with one banned editor, not hard blocking over a million IP addresses. The Evil Spartan (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Concur This is quite a large block. I like to hear from Raul, but absent any comments, I think these should be removed. This is something not even IP block exemption can scale to relieve, at least that was not the intent of the policy when I proposed it. Yeah, these blocks need looked at. As an aside, Raul does some good work on the project. NonvocalScream (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• Addendum to above: All this for one sockpuppet? NonvocalScream (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• Too much collateral damage, methinks. –xeno (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
  • This is an impressive ammount of ranges, how come this was done for Scibaby AKA Obedium, when it hasn't been done for the puppeters with 200+ registered accounts and countless IP addresses? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Curious, what was the original block reason? –xeno (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have brought this kind of thing up before (as can be seen from Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive399#Improper_block). From what I can tell, User:Obedium - sockmaster- was blocked because Raul determined he was POV pushing on a global warming article and blocked him (the only people Raul ever blocks are people who POV push against global warming and for intelligent design). The Evil Spartan (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems the answer to my question is: "Scibaby was community banned for using massive numbers of sockpuppets to push POV." –xeno (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently I missed that in the block log. But I thought this was obvious given the nature of the case :). The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It was a quote from that thread you linked me to. –xeno (talk) 23:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul tends to prefer a ridiculous "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" approach, and apparently is intolerant of any criticism of it. Just a heads-up; I've had a run-in with him in the past over a similar issue. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 22:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not the first time I ran into Raul's enthusiastic range blocking; and I see their effects at regular interval on unblock-l— there is such a thing as unacceptable collateral damage, and I think this has crossed that line. I would hope Raul would acknowledge the fact that he may have been a little overzealous and that he might want to ease up on the /16 blocks a bit. — Coren  22:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

He won't, although he should. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Solutions

For this particular instance, is there a consensus, or can we discuss unblocking these specific ranges? NonvocalScream (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

We need to wait to hear from Raul what the reason for the blocks are. Some time ago when he detected increased scibaby activity he protected all the Global warming related articles. So, perhaps something similar is going on and he has tried a different tactic.

This is necessary to prevent the editors at Global Warming page from wasting their time reverting an Armada of scibaby socks. When that happens their editing pattern betray them and they are banned without doing a checkuser per WP:DUCK, and WP:Waste of Time as happened to User:Shenstar :) Count Iblis (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

My concern is that we could be turning away potentially valuable contributors with these rangeblocks, as evidenced by the numerous unblock-auto requests that come through. It seems we're making a trade-off of user time spent protecting a small set of articles and potentially losing valuable contributions to a larger set. –xeno (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

While some banned users are real pests and require drastic action to keep them off of the project, I wonder if these blocks are the best way. In my experience, banned users who have access to many IPs usually stop using an IP after it's been blocked, even if only for a short time. Unless he keeps returning to the same ranges perhaps shorter blocks would serve the same purpose while signifciantly reducing the collateral damage. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

A wonderful solution would be to desysop Raul. Unlike Bedford, Raul actually did something wrong--and so the community (and only the community) should endorse desysopping him. He's caused way too many problems. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense, he is only causing problems for the global warming denial propagandists. Anyway, this is the previous case and my proposed solution, which admittedly is not so easy to implement. Count Iblis (talk) 00:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

And the unfortunate souls who happen to use ISPs that are allocated IP addresses in that same range and who would like to contribute. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Can't they just ask for the block to be overturned? In these cases one could allow them to create an acount and then notify Raul about that created account so that the new editor can be monitored to see if it is not Scibaby slipping through the net. Count Iblis (talk) 00:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a lot of hoops to make a potential good faith contributor jump through. I would gather a good number of them say "sod it" and are lost forever. That proposed solution sounds like it could benefit from the stable revision enhancement. –xeno (talk) 00:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul's Response?

Has anyone been able to contact him? Has he made edits since being notified, is he ignoring this? Email? Does anyone know his usual log on time? I think there shouldn't be any mass revet action taken until we hear from him. Unless he's ignoring this, than I say some further discussion is warranted immediately. Beam 01:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

He most certainly has edited since; his last was just over an hour ago. I was looking at this earlier. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 01:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Raul doesn't usually edit wikipedia on Sunday. Count Iblis (talk) 01:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Tile join blocks

Just a note that Raul has also blocked large ranges of UK dynamic IPs when it would be simpler to just protect the articles that this one attacks. There are swathes of the most popular IPs blocked for 1 year, including BT, Tiscali and Sky. The thing is that even these rangeblocks are completely pointless, because short of blocking the entire ISP (tens of millions of addresses in some of these cases), one can just reboot the router and end up with a completely different IP anyway. I am on BT and my IP bounces between absolutely dozens of /16 blocks every time I switch off my PC and router. Examples;

• 81.153.64.0/18 (BT)
• 79.76.0.0/17 (Tiscali)
• 90.200.0.0/16 (Sky)

Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Half-cocked

Let's not go off half-cocked here. I just handled an unblock request from 207.195.224.0/19. There were only about 8 active IPs on that range, so I took a closer look. That range is owned by a hosting company. Hosting companies frequently host misconfigured web servers that act as open proxies and many hosting companies don't give a flying fig about the security position of their clients. Every IP on that range that has recent edits is an anonymous proxy, so I've reblocked the range with a different reason. Anyone who unblocks Raul's blocks without a damn thorough check and who thereby enables vandalism or socking is going to get a personal trout slap from me. Thatcher 01:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul's reply

First, I'd like to start this out by noting that The Evil Spartan has a history of making false and/or misleading statements about my actions, based on either ignorance or a distorted understanding of them. He has apparently chosen to continue this trend here. Above, he says that Obedium was the sockpuppet master, and that I blocked him because I disagreed with him. This is false on several counts - Scibaby was the sockmaster - he was the first one discovered, based on a checkuser request , and was blocked by William M. Connelley. I had nothing to do with that particular block. Months later, I did block Obedium for vandalism, and a few days thereafter (following some checkuser queries) I changed the block reason to include being a scibaby sockpuppet. All of this is available in the Scibaby and Obedium block logs - had Evil Spartan bothered to check them. Apparently these thing are "obvious" to him, the actual facts of the case not withstanding. It's not the first time he's leveled that particular false claim either.

Now, about the range blocks -- The Spartan suggests that we Revert-Block-Ignore Scibaby's misbehavior. There are several problems with this approach - first, that it demonstrably doesn't work. He simply creates new accounts and comes back. It's been almost a year since he was first caught and blocked, but several hundred socks later, he shows no signs of stopping. The only method that has proven even half effective is to prevent him from registering new accounts. Second, constantly dealing with Scibaby's nonsense burns out the people who actually have to clean up the damage (Raymond Arrit quit over it). I'm sure it's easy for Evil Spartan to suggest that people RBI, given that he hasn't actually done a scintilla of work dealing with Scibaby. Those who do edit these articles, however, are quite clear in their desire to keep them Scibaby free. He wastes a great deal of time and effort from other contributors that could be better spent writing articles. Third, the ranges do not affect anyone with an account. People who do not have accounts can contact unblock-en-l and ask for one. Fourth, the ranges above were not blocked willy-nilly. I avoid blocking highly active ranges - if a /16 is active, I block the /24. Thatcher has already noted this elsewhere in this thread.

To reply to Will Beback - I started instituting year-long range blocks in place in or around February. (After shorter ones failed to stop Scibaby) He still hasn't stopped. Therefore, if after 6 months of consistent range blocks he's still coming back, it stands to reason that shorter blocks will not stop him either.

And lastly - I'm not even going to get into how ludicrous Kurt's comments are. Anyone who's seen his participation elsewhere on Misplaced Pages should have a pretty good idea of the soundness of his judgment. But to rebut one thing he said, he claimed (falsely) that I edited an hour before he did - several hours after I got Spartan's notice on my talk page. Apparently Kurt has issues reading dates and times. My last edit prior to this one was a full 20 hours before I got The Spartan's note on my talk page, not (as Kurt said) an hour before his edit at 01:32, 28 July 2008. Raul654 (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• There are several hardblocks, could they be tweaked to anon-only? –xeno (talk) 02:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Use of carefully applied, anon-only range blocks to help control this level of disruption is fully justified. Volunteer burn-out is a serious issue when dealing with serial sockpuppeteers, and it's dismaying to see those who aren't actually dealing with the sockpuppeter giving back-seat advice on what would actually work to those who are dealing with it. Jayjg 02:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. If the options are spend all our time cleaning up after jerks, or just quitting and doing better things with our time, because we can't take serious measures to stop said jerks, I think it's obvious what most people will be doing. ThuranX (talk) 02:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Based on Rauls experience, and vested nature into the project, I'm inclined to give Raul the benefit here. The rationale sure makes sense. I apologize Raul. Continue the work you do. NonvocalScream (talk) 03:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think that the fact that people/IPs can request to be unblocked is enough to determine that this did not belong on AN/I, as this is a topic that does not deserve to have anyone waste their time on, let alone should Raul, with his constant dedication and experience here, be questioned in such a strange way. Can't this be closed and killed already? Ottava Rima (talk) 03:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Have the hardblocks been tweaked yet? –xeno (talk) 03:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless someone is requesting unblock for any of those IPs to create an account, why would it matter? Misplaced Pages acts preventively, and so far this has been effectively preventive. Your concern seems unwarranted and would not stop the socks from being created. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

People are requesting unblocks from those IP ranges. Tweaking the blocks to anon-only would stop us having to create a new account and hand it IP block exempt at the same time. –xeno (talk) 11:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

"People are requesting unblocks from those IP ranges. " Then that shows that they are perfectly capable of doing so, and the system works. Therefore, you have no argument and your complaint is moot. Please strike accordingly. Thanks. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

So we should hand a brand new account an IP block exempt flag? Would be much safer to soften the block. –xeno (talk) 23:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I am being a little confusing - There is a person making sock puppets. He relies on constantly shifting ips and making new accounts on a standard basis, which allows him to use the socks later. The only way to stop this is to stop the ability to create new accounts. It is not IP postings that are a danger, but sock puppet accounts. By having the people have to physical request an unblock to make an account, or permission to make an account, it prevents this automatic account creation to work, or slows down the process. Soft blocking wouldn't achieve this desired affect. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and perhaps so am I, because I don't think you understand what I'm driving at. A few of those rangeblocks aren't set to "anon only". Thus even if we created an account for them, they wouldn't be able to edit (unless given the IP block exempt flag, something that isn't handed out without a good reason). Now if there is 1) a good reason for those ranges to be hard blocked or 2) an understanding that giving out an IP block exempt flag to edit through these hard blocks, then I guess there's no issue with them being hardblocks. if not, they need to be softened to "anon only". (keep the ACB). –xeno (talk) 00:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Yes, and perhaps so am I, because I don't think you understand what I'm driving at. A few of those rangeblocks aren't set to "anon only"." Actually, I addressed that above. We are trying to stop socks. Some of them are already created. To slow him down, he would need to request to unblock each. To make new socks, he would need to request to be unblocked. Chances are, he could be caught before he is unblocked. Understand how this is the only way now? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

So why are only a handful hardblocked? And, should I start handing out IP block exempt flags to brand new accounts that request it from those hard blocked ranges? P.S. I'd prefer a reply from Raul, as perhaps they are hard blocked for a good reason ( I did notice one of them mentioned it was a whole range of misconfigured web servers that acted as open proxies - is this the case for all of them?) –xeno (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Ok, so should I start handing out IP block exempt flags to brand new accounts that request it from those hard blocked ranges? " Most certainly not. They should be forced to explain some of who they are or other such things to make sure that its not a copy and paste job. Otherwise, it would be just as flimsy as letting him have free access to create. If they are current names, their background needs to be checked to see if there is overlap and a history that connects them to the puppet master. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Unblock-auto request comes from hard blocked range. I offer to create them an account, providing my standard boilerplate text which can be seen at User:Xenocidic/misc in the collapsed frequently used wikitext (I stole it from another admin). email comes from someguy at somewebmailhost dot com. "create me an account please". so I create them an account, and hand them IP block exempt? that doesn't seem like a best practice to me. neither does forcing someone to explain some of who they are (what ever happened to anonymity?), just because they happen to be in one of these ranges. and again, I'd prefer a reply from Raul, for reasons mentioned above. –xeno (talk) 01:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I will let Raul answer for himself, and I will have this be my final say on the matter - This happens quite often and is standard procedure when people have their IP and account blocked, and that IP rotates to someone else. It is hard knowing if the new person is actually a new person, or if the previous user is trying to game the system. Such extremes are taken because they are necessary. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

These aren't IP blocks, they're IP range blocks. Feel free to reply, I've decided just to ask him directly. –xeno (talk) 01:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I've seen the ranged blocked for socks. So, yeah. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Raul. — Coren  03:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You guys are missing the point. It isn't that an ip couldn't request an unblock, it's that an actual new editor, the most valuable resource in all of the lands of the 'pedai we hold so dear, might not know what a template is, or even where the { symbol is on their keybaord. And when they realize they are actually blocked, they're already gone. Beam 04:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it's turning away new editors. As an editor whose ip (from one of the places I regularly edit from) falls into one of the blocked scibaby ranges, I can attest to the fact that I'm unaffected by the block once I log in. I'm not aware of what particular disruption scibaby has caused, but I do know that a disruptive sock farmer can cause frustration enough to inspire an exodus of existing volunteers, so it makes sense to take aggressive measures to halt the disruption in order to not lose valuable editors. There's enough information on the block message that comes up for a potential new editor who hasn't created an account yet to contact the blocking admin to ask for help to proceed--I know there was enough info for me to email Raul the first time I got hit with the scibaby block message just to let him know the block was hitting a regular editor's ip. I don't see any real negative effects caused by these blocks, especially if it's effective in stopping the disruption. --MPerel 05:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I support Raul's range blocks, and I want to note for the record that Raymond Arrit isn't the only editor who has been damaged by scibaby. For some strange reason that I have yet to figure out, an administrator named Madman decided to block me for 48 hours for helping to revert the damage caused by one of scibaby's accounts in September 2007. Madman claimed that I had violated the 3RR (no such violation occurred), was being disruptive (helping to revert SPA is not disruptive), and that I was edit warring (edit warring with a banned user?). NonvocalScream (then called "Navou") and Nishkid64 supported the block. It would be nice if administrators would actually do their homework before using the tools. Blocking the correct account is somewhat important here. Viriditas (talk) 06:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Your editing was disruptive, lets not get twisted over 2RR versus 3RR. :| NonvocalScream (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There was nothing disruptive about reverting a scibaby account in September 2007, and there continues to be nothing disruptive about reverting their edits now. It appears that you don't understand the word "disruptive" as it used on Misplaced Pages, and I suggest you actually read WP:DISRUPT. You supported a bad block, and sadly enough, you have not learned from your mistake. If you are at all interested in correcting your error, you are welcome to take a look at this page and scroll down to 02:31, 25 September 2007 and below. It's pretty clear who is being disruptive here, and it's not me. Amazingly, User:Obedium was allowed to continue to edit until 28 November 2007 when he should have been blocked in September. Instead, you chose to support blocking me. Viriditas (talk) 10:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that was a ridiculously inappropriate block, I remember that now. All the more reason to be aggressive blocking abusive SPAs. The collateral damage to a highly productive top 100 editor like Viriditas is case in point that an SPA permitted to run amok is far more damaging to existing editors than an ip block that might possibly discourage a potential new account in the SPA's ip range. --MPerel 14:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It makes no sense to me. It doesn't appear the blocks are working, since Raul deems it necessary to continue blocking vast numbers of IP addresses. If Scibaby continues indefinitely, does that mean ranges will continue to be blocked as a consequence, obstructing and potentially deterring other users from participation? Isn't there a certain point at which the collateral damage exceeds what is acceptable in attempting to prevent one person from making easily-reverted POV edits? Also, has semi-protection been tried? Wouldn't that be a much simpler solution? Everyking (talk) 07:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, Scibaby creates multiple accounts at staggered intervals, so any attempt at SP results in a sleeper account coming out of the sock drawer. He recently attempted to do this with his last account, and he did it in full view while registered from another account. This is what sets him apart from other accounts; take a look at some examples where he creates one account after another: , , , , , , , and many more. Take a look at this one where he uses one account to create two. It's easy to break the the day/edit threshold by creating a new account every x days and making y number of edits. The solution is to block on sight, and since the modus operandi is obvious (same type of edits, almost no use of talk pages), this should be easy. Viriditas (talk) 07:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul is right; I am in error as to whether he edited. I made that comment on the 27th, but I was thinking it was the 26th (which at the time was also the date of the last edits he had made). I often am one or two days off on the day of the month, so that was an error on my part.

That doesn't change the fact that his method is wholly unjustified. Saying "Unless you're the one dealing with it, don't criticize those who are" is hardly a compelling argument; I do not need to be an NFL quarterback to recognize when Joey Harrington is stinking it up, nor do I need to be a businessman to recognize when a company is going under. The "collateral damage" caused by Raul's actions is, in my view, an unacceptable tradeoff. It's as simple as that. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 14:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You have no idea what you are talking about. You do not know how much collateral damage these blocks are creating, nor do you have any idea how effective they are at preventing Scibaby from creating new accounts. You are simply taking wild guesses based on no evidence or understanding of the problem whatsoever (which is what the arbcom sanctioned Everyking for, now that I think about it). Raul654 (talk) 22:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Hagger"

I randomly chose to browse Misplaced Pages by different languages and noticed that Tigrinya (spoken by Eritreans and northern Ethiopians) was on the list. As I have an interest in languages that developed alongside with Coptic, Greek, and Ethiopic, I decided to check it out.

I saw that the main page said "HAGGER" at the top, and that sort of freaked me out, because User:Grawp, who has a sort of obsession with typing "hagger" and using socks, sent me an email filled with disturbing spam, and prompted me to email an alert User:B, the guy who blocked Grawp from emailing others. I was also surprised because main page in other languages can be edited anonymously.

...It turns out that it was a single revision made by an anonymous edit authored by 67.83.35.73—here's the diff page.

In fact, in that page, the screen is still covered by the edit, so better yet, here's the history.

What makes the whole thing even worse is that it took six hours for someone to spot it, and it just happened to by myself.

Now I really think there should be some sort of common protection for different languages—something that covers vulnerable pages like George W. Bush, the main page, and so forth.

...does anyone know how connected these languages are and how they are currently regulated??? Also, is there a way to intercede in such matters in different language versions? ~ Troy (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Other language Wikipedias are common targets for them as security and response time increases here. I believe there is, or was, a discussion regarding global sysops ongoing, which would speak to the issue of under-represented other-language projects. –xeno (talk) 22:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but why the heck can someone edit the main page? I've never heard of it. One other question: when you say that there was a discussion, what would be the conclusion on that? Regards, ~ Troy (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Poorly configured, I suppose. See: meta:Metapub/Archives/2008-07#Global_sysops_.28poll.29_.28closed.29 - The results of the poll are yet to be announced. –xeno (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a dead link to me. ~ Troy (talk) 22:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC) :/

Try again, or this direct link. –xeno (talk) 22:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

About editing the main page -- some wikis don't have full protection on the main page or don't have the full protection cascaded --> the az.wikipedia's main page got hit by Grawp a couple days ago too. And what happened to global rollback? I thought there was a discussion about that too? Calvin 1998  22:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You've read my mind. There should be global rollback.

You should know that some languages have no admins or only one admin, though, so it's quite complex.

There should still be semi-protection at least—I'm willing to pressure for some sort of solution if I have to. ~ Troy (talk) 22:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And BTW, if there are few or no admins, rollback should still be granted to someone. ~ Troy (talk) 23:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Rollback is really just an easier way to simply load up an old version of the page, edit it, and click save... Just in case you didn't know. Also, cross-wiki vandalism can be reported here (meta:Vandalism reports)–xeno (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• It appears that the Tigrinya Misplaced Pages has zero admins, and zero admins is too few for any Misplaced Pages. I note that it's no longer possible to get a realistic view of the ratio of users to admins, though, because of global login. Apparently I'm now considered an editor at the Tigrinya Misplaced Pages, because I clicked over there, even though I don't even have a Tigrinya font on my computer to display the language, much less could I read it even if I did. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually there was a proposal at Meta to implement a global sysop bit, which would have addressed cross project abuse of this type and worse. English language Wikipedians prevented it from passing, and when a modified version got proposed that would have exempted English language Misplaced Pages, English language Wikipedians shot that down too. And many if not most of these cross project abuses originate at English Misplaced Pages and migrate elsewhere. If it sounds like this project is collectively behaving illogically and making life harder for the other WMF projects' volunteers, well--imagine what the volunteers on those other projects think. Durova 01:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it failed? I didn't realize. Where is the decision? –xeno (talk) 01:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At Meta. Durova 02:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes , the same link I linked above I suppose. They left the "poll closed - results unannounced" banner up for whatever reason. –xeno (talk) 02:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I just saw the same vandalism at the Tigrinya main page and reverted again. I think the proposal Durova mentions should be reconsidered. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Durova is correct, there isn't much we can do about the smaller wikis since proposals keep getting shot down front, right, center, but a new proposal will be brought to meta soon just after a severe bug gets fixed...--Cometstyles 10:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW: I protected the main page and blocked the IP responsible there. If anyone happens to notice vandalism on a small wiki where there don't seem to be active sysops, bring it to either the Small Wiki Monitoring Team's attention via the #cvn-sw channel on Freenode, or to the stewards, via the #Stewards channel, for attention. Stewards have sysop powers globally now and can easily revert or block as needed. Global Rollback is in the process of being granted to some very hard working and capable SWMT members (such as Cometstyles, for instance, really a good chap) as well. ++Lar: t/c 13:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A thought recently came to my mind that we should make the Cluebot recognize the word "hagger". Admiral Norton 17:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would help. He frequently uses H...A...G...G...E...R, where each "." is a different unicode character. (I think they're different. None displays on this PC, probably due to local security configurations, so I don't know what Unicode characters they are.) I don't think we can come up with a bot which will recognize everything that LOOKS like HAGGER. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

They don't display due to localization issues and encoding issues with your browser. He is using UTF-8 characters that your browser doesn't have the graphic character for, so it displays a small square instead. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's local security issues relating to localization issues; I'm forbidden from loading the font-sets which would display the characters. I don't know why fonts and character sets are considered security issues.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Because the glyphs (or letter shapes) that make up the fonts are often created in the PostScript language (or at least used to be), & some folks are concerned about that vector being used in security exploits. (Although I have never heard of that actually being done; anyway, that's the explanation I was given, years ago.) -- llywrch (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, it isn't Grawp, it's Hiwhispees (it says "This Page Was Brought To You By Hiwhispees). Grawp uses a different layout which states "This Page Was Brought To You By Grawp. Hiwhispees does not type in H....A...G...G...E...R. Hagger is a slang term coined by Grawp (Hagger's Brother). He types in "cut the economy" in LUCINDA SANS UNICODE. Thedevilsmode (talk) 01:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, admins may have access to #wikimedia-admin, which is useful for such cross-project cooperation.  — Mike.lifeguard |  02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ask an op to give you an +I  — Mike.lifeguard |  02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the limitations of ClueBot (it seems to be mainly a word and phrase recognition tool), but it would be easy enough to write a simple bot that would check for these kind of complex patterned structures (regexp to the rescue...). I mean, they're signature pieces; there's only so much variation they can handle without losing their unique look, and the bot can probably be adjusted more easily than the vandal can rewrite his code. if I get a chance this week I'll play with it, assuming there's an interest. --Ludwigs2 06:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(P.s.) I just looked at ClueBot's source, and I think it would be easy to modify it to handle this. I'll leave a note over there and see what they think. --Ludwigs2 23:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding personal attacks, disruption and continued assumption of bad faith by User:Inclusionist

I'll be as brief as possible. I became aware of Inclusionist's actions when I noticed changes to the Article Rescue Squadron page. Inclusionist began a merger which was opposed by a number of editors (the details are archived on AN/I). That problem itself is basically smoothed over. In the ensuing discussion, Inclusionist made a series of unhelpful edits and unpleasant personal attacks listed below:

• here, resulting in a warning from me here
• The second warning here referred to this edit.
• Inclusionist received a "vandalism" warning from User:Realkyhick (Which I felt was out of place) and responded by "forging" a template message to Realkyhick here. The third warning followed here.

Since then, Inclusionist has continued to assert some that some vague relationship between me and User:Prisongangleader exists over my continued requests for explanation and retraction. The first two comments (on my talk page and on An/I) resulted in this request for him to stop. since then he has continued to assert that such a relationship exists, even going so far as to make statements such as "User:Protonk lost a supporter of his position when Prisongangleader was indefinitely booted, and has been arguing passionatly against his block since then." I have asked him to stop twice, first on his talk page (as I didn't want to cloud the block review AN/I with that discussion, then on AN/I. In response to this he has responded with some claims to further the assertion.

Given this user's block record, which includes blocks following accusations that another editor was a sock/vandal/etc, I would ask that this user be enjoined from making these accusations against me or blocked for some period. I don't consider this a matter for the dispute resolution continuum as it does not strictly involve me and another editor (though a bulk of the accusations do). I also do not consider this a "content dispute" broadly defined (despite the different content stances we have). I'm asking that the community be given some relief from disruptive editing, accusations and personal attacks. Thank you. Protonk (talk) 02:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(removed response)

Protonk is correct, I should be blocked. Can the next administrator block me indefinitely please? Along with my sock User:RWV. (I am very serious). Inclusionist (talk) 11:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC) AKA RWV (talk) 11:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Protonk did not argue that Inclusionist should be blocked. --Abd (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"::You know I filed the current checkuser on him, right? diff Protonk (talk) 05:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)" the removal of this was most likely unintentional, so I'll just replace it. Protonk (talk) 12:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Update User was blocked at his (her) own request. I won't mark this resolved but it does seem to make the subject moot. Protonk (talk) 19:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:SELFBLOCK suggests that users not be blocked at their own request, so the block could be improper. --Abd (talk) 17:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It says the requests are typically refused. Inclusionist has since began planning some manner of wikicide. –xeno (talk) 17:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Editor Wilhelmina Will's no holds barred DYK race -- I propose a temporary ban for her

User:Wilhelmina Will has resorted to personal attacks in edit summaries, for which she has been warned on her talk page, and to reverting substantive edits in articles in order to obtain the correct number of words for DYK.

Apparently she feels so secure in doing this that she is willing to admit that is her sole purpose for reverting. I posted before on AN/I about her plagiarizing articles, and talked to her about it, but she did not respond other than to warn me away from her and admit she didn't understand what she had copied.

This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace).

Based on this I have asked that the Mesodermochelys article be removed from candidates for DYK.

She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award. She plagiarizes but isn't bother about it. The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately.

Is this what Misplaced Pages should be featuring on its main page? I don't think so. I think the main page needs a break from Wilhelminia. --Blechnic (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Since the DYK criteria are much stricter than the criteria for inclusion, an editor whose entire purpose is to create articles for DYK and rack up "medals" wouldn't seem to be bad on face. I can't speak to the specific problems this editor is generating but the underlying act should not be suspect in any way. Protonk (talk) 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Willing to edit war, revert edits that increased accuracy and clarity in order to have the right number of words, and calling another editor "revolting" are fine by you if used for DYK, then? Ugh. --Blechnic (talk)

(ec) Oh please, Protonk, you seriously think that adding pointless verbiage to an article just to jack up its word count for DYK (which she admits doing - follow Blechnic's links) is serious, useful, appropriate editing? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't know anything about the specific actions the editor in question has done. I'm just contending the general premise of this statement "This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace)...She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award." Protonk (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

She certainly did edit war for the purpose of the number of words for DYK: "My reason is to keep the main body of this article above 1500 bytes. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

then the problem is the edit warring, not the motivation. the solution (DYK topic ban) is a unique and probably helpful one. I'm just defending the notion that an editor may edit to only contribute to DYK. If we had a (hypothetical) editor that did so without introducing factual innacuriacies, without edit warring and without plagarising, we would lavish them with praise. the underlying motive isn't the problem here, though it is probably key to the solution. Protonk (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps something like a topic ban? No further DYK submissions from Wilhelmina until the community decides to lift the ban? If that's all she's here for, she's not doing the encyclopedia any favors. (Disclaimer: I have not evaluated Blechnic's post on the merits, but if his factual claims are accurate - which I have no reason to doubt - some kind of a circuit breaker ought to be tripped) (Another disclaimer:I am not an admin) --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I suggest, no DYK submissions or credits for Wilhelmina. I'm more concerned now, after working on this latest article, about her accuracy. She clearly does not understand extinct organisms--what she is currently writing about. --Blechnic (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps the stated DYK criteria are stricter than the criteria for inclusion, but in practice, an editor can plagiarize an article from another source and have it included in DYK--then we have a big fat copyvio linked from the main page. Wilhelmina Will's behavior is sufficiently problematic that I think she (?) should be given a temporary time-out from DYK--there are credible concerns of plagiarism, and the personal attacks aren't helping. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a shame - there are oodles of straightforward stubs (especially in geography and botnay) just itching to be expanded out there without having to get mired in technical detail. I note Fritzpoll has offered to mentor, which may be constructive (?) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think any kind of ban is the answer. Wilhelmina, though a little unorthodox, is a quality contributor; we should not be persecuting her for adding new content. Further, I see little difference in the diffs you've presented, Blechnic; there is no need to go searching for a conflict merely because you dislike a user. I see no inherent problem with trying to get a lot of DYK medals; the end result is lots of high-quality articles for the project. GlassCobra 05:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't dislike or like her. Her contributions are not quality, most I've seen are copyvios or wrong. Her science is really bad. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There certainly was no reason to revert just to get the article up to the correct size. More can be added to the article, if that's the only DYK concern. The personal attacks while reverting to the ever-so-slightly longer version are problematic. Not to mention the factual accuracy of DYKs "extended" in this manner. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GlassCobra, follow Blechnic's links, look at her edit summaries and talk page comments. Wilhelmina clearly admits that she's making changes for the sole purpose of jacking up the article's word count just to fulfill her "dream of having made 5000 DYK articles". That is just not on. A DYK ban is the least disruptive way of dealing with this. She could still edit the rest of the encyclopedia to her heart's content, but her incentive to commit copyvio's and insert useless verbiage would be gone. And the ban could be lifted as soon as she sees the light about her conduct. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

After looking at the history of Mesodermochelys, I agree that there are problems with Wilhelmina Will's conduct. But can someone point me to a diff illustrating the copyvio/plagiarism issues that people are talking about above?  Sandstein  05:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That was another AN/I, not this one. She copied a few phrases for this that should be, in my opinion, in quotes, but the article has mostly been entirely rewritten at this stage. I'll see if I can find a link to the other AN/I.--Blechnic (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to at least most of the discussion. I think her latest response to this AN/I thread will pretty much say it all, along with her calling me a "revolting" editor in her edit summaries while reverting substantive edits to keep the number of words high enough for DYK. She didn't respond to the first AN/I, and her initial response to me expressing concern about her copyvios, as I noted above, was to warn me to never "cross paths with her again." --Blechnic (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's start a tally, then:

• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina at least until she tells us she understands and is willing to abide by copyvio rules and stop treating DYK medals as an end in themselves.--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Until editor gets her act together and accuracy is part of it. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Based not only on the attacks in the edit summaries, but even moreso the reversions to simply keep it at the right technical length (versus actually improving the article), I support a decent-length topic ban from DYK for WW. S. Dean Jameson 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Per Dean Jameson's reasons (personal attacks in edit summaries, accuracy issues, edit wars based on article length for DYK), I think I'd also support a temporary DYK ban for WW. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina until she clearly starts producing accurate quality articles and shows more civility. (I also think that DYK encourages this sort of thing, earlier this year I found and dealt with multiple issues of copyvio from an editor collecting DYKs). Doug Weller (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Mesodermochelys isn't the only palaeo article created by her that has been a problem. I've made to make major changes to Mystriosuchus and Corsochelys to make them in anyway accurate. In addition, many of the palaeo articles created by her lack any information altogether (see her sea turtle creations). She seems to be trying to increase the number of articles out of the article request process, which is commendable; however all her palaeo article either are lacking in information or have serious accuracy issues and some copyvios. Mark t young (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here, it seems to be you, Blechnic. Just stop it, okay? Sceptre 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, it seems that Wilhelmina Will may have been brought up on AN/I more than the twice I brought her up ("everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here" implies a larger number than two including this one). However, I did not bring her up these other times she was brought up here at AN/I. --Blechnic (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think Blechnic deserves great credit for persistence in refusing to let an unpleasant problem be swept under the carpet. JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with JohnCD.ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support --CrohnieGal 13:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support for the short term per Mark T. Young, taking his owrd (and others) on copyvios and inaccurate material. I wonder if the situation could be saved by close monitoring and am opne to the idea. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support both a DYK ban and a possible overall short term block. As someone who has a few DYKs under the belt, her actions to attempt to rack up more is not only insulting to other DYK editors, but shows a complete lack of full respect for the rules regarding a DYK. In the last AN/I thread, I was ready to give Wilhelmina the benefit of the doubt, but the continuing on going problems and her responses to these issues make me feel that something more needs to be done here. I was suprised the last thread did not result in a block as she seemed to be ignoring all comments and the offer of mentoring to help correct a major issue with the use of copyrighted material, posting of blatantly false information, and the use of herself as a source. -- ] (] · ]) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, both a DYK ban, for a couple of months, and a short block for civility violations. Editing Misplaced Pages should be about improving the encyclopedia, not collecting awards. When someone edits an article with an edit summary indicating that the goal of the edit is simply to increase the word count to the DYK minimum rather than to improve content, this clearly demonstrates problematic and unproductive attitude both to DYK and to Misplaced Pages in general. Also, the edit summaries in the first two diffs provided by Blechnic are really unacceptable. There is no excuse for deliberately insulting other editors and the fact that the sole purpuse of WW's edits, according to those edit summaries, was to insult Blechnic, makes it even worse. I would think that a short civility block for WW is warranted just for that. Nsk92 (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban as proposed, plus mentoring/adoption if anyone is willing - I seem to remember that someone offered, but I can no longer find that on her talk page. We need to find out whether this editor's undoubted energy and enthusiasm can be channelled towards helping to build an accurate encyclopedia, rather than accumulating number-of-articles-created points and DYK credits. (In view of the amount of trouble it seems to be causing, I wonder whether the whole DYK system is maybe more of a hindrance than a help to WP?) JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support; DYK are not an ends, and savaging articles to make them qualify, quality be damned, is not acceptable. — Coren  17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support civility block, not just topic ban. This bald-faced lie in regards to the personal attack diffs provided by Blechnic is an insult to the entire community. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK topic ban and civility block. Plagarism is unacceptable, as are personal attacks. -MBK₀₀₄ 17:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, per all above. –xeno (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• SupportDYK Topic Ban and Civility Block, and civility and plagarism probations. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support If Blechnic, in return, is warned over lack of AGF ("This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals") and told to stop making personal attacks ("The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately."). These actions are not beneficial to an encyclopedia, and instead harmful. These actions are escalating actions and result in further problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Those don't look like personal attacks to me, but straightforward reporting of the user's behavior. Corvus cornix_talk 21:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Corvus, you cannot have a more clearer situation of a personal attack than saying someone lacks the ability to read accurately. That is clearly an attack on their person. Remember, NPA states at the top: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This was a clear breach. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, to be fair OR, that is an oversimplification of what Blechnic said - assuming good faith, we can assume that Blechnic was not saying she couldn't read, but couldn't understand the technical details of scientific journals. Not an uncommon problem, even for researchers in the field! :) Fritzpoll (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • If I oversimplified "inability to read", then I apologize. However, the language seems to be inappropriate, and this could have been solved by a simple redaction to say there have been problems resulting from her edits that remove the scientific accuracy, instead of blaming her "ability" as the root cause. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • While there may be a case for warning Blechnic, I fail to see why the decision about Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on some warning to Blechnic. —SlamDiego_←T 21:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Because Misplaced Pages is about preventative, not punitive, and personal attacks cause discontent between users, which will spiral the problem further out of control. The response to incivility is not to be incivil. We need to state the facts of the case, not discuss the attributes of others, and be as objective as possible. Otherwise, problems escalate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not arguing against a warning for Blechnic. (I have not formed an opinion on that.) I'm asking for why the response to Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on warning Blechnic. If we simply couldn't communicate with Blechnic (and thus could not make a warning), should we let Wilhelmina Will continue? —SlamDiego_←T 22:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Ah. It just seems like the situation happens around those two interacting, so the solution would have to be based on their mutual interactions. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Oppose any sanctions against Blechnic. That Ottava Rima is agitating so loudly in Wilhelmina WIll's favor, to the point of now creating two separate disruptive off-topic threads is absurd, and I ask that she be warned by an admin, and any further distracting sub-threads be 'rewarded' with a block for disruption of an AN/I thread. It's clear that Ottava is willing to risk his/her reputation, such as it is, to save WW, which is not going to work. As such, the warning would not only be to keep this AN/I focused but to prevent OR from his/her own worst impulses. ThuranX (talk) 02:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thuranx, your comments show short sighteness when it comes to fixing the topic, and ignore the fact that I've dealt with mediation between users quite often, have an extensive background in the DYK topic area, and that I already recommended WW be prevented in the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK ban until she gives reason to believe that she will adhere to the spirit of DYK when submitting. That would mean no copyvios (taking Mark T Young's word, which I have found to be reliable in the past) and meeting the minimum DYK requirements legitimately, withiut playing games. I can understand the frustration of falling a few words short and thus rewording things to use a few extra characters and being reverted, but there should be a better way to extend an article that needs extention. Rlendog (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be getting off track with all the arguing. There is clear consensus for a preventative DYK ban. However, we need something constructive to assist her with editing articles based upon academic citations. Can I suggest that mentoring is a condition of her DYK ban being recended? Mark t young (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be absolutely necessary. I have already made an attempt to talk to her. Based on her response, we will find out if such a thing is possible on her end. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Note - this was posted and there appears to be two DYK regulars who suggest opposes to the above in some form or the other. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford, who raised an alternative to a ban that I agreed to support should WW follow up on it. I will always support anything short of a ban, particularly if the user facing the ban shows an inclination towards working for an alternative solution. That seems pretty straight-forward. However, Will has not shown any inclination to anything but continuing to created bad and wrong articles and edit according to her personal desires rather than accuracy.
  • Also DYK users have a link to this discussion and explicit notice of the nature of this discussion should they choose to come here and participate. It is not necessary for anyone to suggest their voices. Did you post a note at Bedford's talk page to let him know you were speaking here for him here at AN/I, thouhg? Thank you, also, Ottava Rima, for speaking for me, but I have clearly spoken for myself above. Please do not speak for me. --Blechnic (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
    • PS I did let User:Bedford know that you spoke for him here, as you have not notified him, according to your user talk contributions history. --Blechnic (talk) 16:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford" it sure seems like you were opposed in your excessive pursual of this and the extreme lengths you are taking: "I think it is a little excessive. I suggest possibly cooling down a bit. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)". So far, there have been quite a few people questioning your eagerness. Now, you definitely aren't helping your case by acting condescending. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggested that she could no longer self-nom until five of her articles were nominated by others,and later placed on the front page. ANI has proven unreliable, and instead of a mass lynching, it is best if those most knowledgeable about DYK practices meet out a reasonable and fair punishment that does not discourage creativity, but does encourage competent prose.--Bedford 16:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:OWN doesn't just apply to articles, you know -- or are you suggesting that "outsiders" are incapable of making judgments based on the available evidence? --Calton | Talk 00:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Request review: protection of John Edwards

I've just protected John Edwards for 48 hours. In addition to a fairly pronounced edit war involving multiple parties, there was what I consider to be a significant WP:BLP issue which led me to protect a specific version. Hence I'm submitting the action here for review.

Background: the National Enquirer, a tabloid, recently alleged infidelity on Edwards' part, an allegation which he has denied. Thus far, a number of reputable media organizations are covering the brouhaha over these allegations, though they have taken care to avoid comment on the veracity of the allegations themselves, which appear to be confined only to the Enquirer. There has been a dispute/edit war at John Edwards over both whether the allegations should be included, and if so, how the material should be phrased.

I've left a lengthy rationale on the Edwards talk page for the 48-hour protection and reversion. The protection itself is justified by the edit-war, but the protection of a specific version is always controversial. To summarize: the essence of WP:BLP is that Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid; that we are not Wikinews and getting these issues right takes precedence over getting them in the article right now; that the mainstream sources covering this issue are themselves seemingly skeptical or iffy about the allegations; and that while this material may certainly warrant inclusion, the dispute over the material needs to take place on the talk page, not in the form of edit-warring in articlespace.

Potentially relevant WP:BLP/N thread here, though input was fairly limited.

I'm posting this for feedback and a sanity check from uninvolved editors and admins. Also, as a minor administrative issue: should this be logged as a special enforcement action under the provisions of WP:BLPBAN? I'm hesitant to be the "test case" there, but I believe this protection/reversion are in keeping with that decision. MastCell  17:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

On the least important point, I'd only log it under WP:BLPBAN if you are intentionally using that as the basis for your action. GRBerry 17:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd looked earlier at the talk page, in response to a thread above. Nothing relevant has been said since, yet the edit warring continued. The edit warring in and of itself merited protection, regardless of the BLP issue. It seems reasonable to have removed the paragraph also under WP:BLP. The final version before protection was arguably worse than the version being revert warred over. Hopefully in 48 hours there will be additional evidence relevant to determining the appropriate amount of coverage. I'd consider extending the protection to a week however, with a note on the talk page to use {{editprotected}} if an actual consensus version has emerged. GRBerry 17:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I was initially thinking of 3-5 days, but thought I'd err on the side of less protection. I agree about extending it if the same issues persist. I suspect that at the moment Reliable Sources(TM) have their fact-checkers and legal department working on the matter, and the appropriate level, tone, sourcing, etc should hopefully clarify itself shortly. MastCell  18:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

See also this recent addition to Story of My Life (novel) by 216.136.25.72. It has twice been re-added since its removal - once by 216.136.25.72, and again by 72.72.203.224. Voceditenore (talk) 18:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 1 week. MastCell  18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you mean fully protected? ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 19:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At Story of My Life (novel), the questionable material had been inserted solely by IP's, so I've only semiprotected it at this point. MastCell  19:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ack, sorry, I confused the two. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 20:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think protection was the right move based on the edit warring while discussion was taking place. As for inclusion, I think it is possible to include only what the sources say, that the NE reports A but that it remains unsubstantiated. Ramsquire 23:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• The protection is called for, but I think an admin needs to take the time to synthesize data on this scandal and edit the article, even while under the protection, to mention the scandal (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression admins can still edit protected pages). At this point, the scandal has been reported in Fox News (here), and dozens of national and international newspapers. The Fox News article contains sourcing independent of the National Enquirer. To allow the pre-scandal version of the page to stand in the midst of a growing media storm is to deny reality, and bring discredit upon Misplaced Pages. Regrettably, this protection is now making Misplaced Pages the subject of controversy. RayAYang (talk) 06:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, though it's strange without context. How's this at the end of John_Edwards#2008_Presidential_campaign? Edwards' chance of becoming Obama's running mate has likely been dashed by undenied July 2008 allegations published by the National Enquirer..--chaser - t 17:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Since when is a Democrat being a two-timer considered to be news? Now, a Mormon Senator caught messing around in the restroom - that's news. Baseball Bugs 17:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Admins cannot synthesize content information to resolve a dispute; an admin's opinion on a specific content dispute is no weightier than anyone else's, though admins may act to deal with edit-warring, WP:BLP issues, and other policy problems. While admins have the technical ability to edit protected pages, it would be a gross abuse to do so except in narrowly constrained circumstances (see the protection policy). This will have to be solved the good old-fashioned way - by discussion on the article talk pages.

Incidentally, I would strongly encouage outside input on the relevant talk page, since this is a thorny content issue without a clear "right" answer (though there are many, many wrong ones). Bottom lines: Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. There is no deadline; it's more important to get this right rather than to race to repeat unconfirmed rumors. Outside criticism should not be ignored, but being criticized doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong. Sometimes, depending on the source, it's a sign that you're doing something right. MastCell  17:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages welcomes outside input. That contrasts with the tabloids, which welcome inside output. Baseball Bugs 23:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand the need to contain a frantic edit war between the warring ideologues from both parties, but the section should be added as "alleged" event. It's been picked up by multiple legitimate news agencies with independent sources.

Comparing this to Senator Craig, or using it as an excuse to dismiss the alleged Edwards scandal by the admins is a joke. Senator Craig's events were performed in front of an undercover officer, who testified as to the events that took place, and Craig admitted to the allegations. Hence, it is NOT alleged. It is fact.

The Edwards situation has received enough mainstream media attention to warrant a section documenting "alleged" or as of yet unresolved events. If or when the events are proven/disproven, the section can be ammended to reflect those changes.

But unless there is an official moratorium on events before they can be added to wikipedia, selective censorship is counterproductive to the wiki community. There are undeniable facts that 1.) SOMETHING took place, 2.) Edwards was present, 3.) all of the witness reports and evidence (from sources outside of The Enquirer), point to the idea that it was an affair or rendezvous.

Either set a timetable for how long an event must sit in purgatory before being added as "alleged" and how many sources and news outlets have to have reported it, or make the changes.

Make rules and enforce them, or adopt a laissez faire attitude. You can't arbitrarily enforce edit and posting rules

Either deal in fact and theory, or only fact. But you can't selectively remove theory. And that applies to everything.69.81.18.5 (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.81.18.5 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 29 July 2008

FYI: redacted link that apparently everyone but me already knew about --Jaysweet (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you - we already have a handful of IP's and new accounts dedicated to spamming that piece on the article talk page. MastCell  18:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, haven't really been following it. I was just surprised to see Misplaced Pages mentioned as the second link when I gnewsed for "John Edwards". I have redacted the link, since apparently everyone but me already knew about it :D --Jaysweet (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Poor user behavior from out of the gate

Please take a look at FResearcher‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He has been ignoring the warnings of administrators, has been referring to me personally at such venues as WT:FRINGE and User talk:Martinphi and seems to be on the path to making Misplaced Pages into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. We need some outsiders to review his last dozen or so contributions, responses, etc. and guide him appropriately. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I did a bit more research and now think that this is actually our old friend Profg. However, any outside input we can manage would be appreciated! ScienceApologist (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

What administrators? And when did I refer to you "personally"? Search SA, search as you won't find it, until you addressed me personally. You guys love "upping the ante", especially when the intented reaction isn't what you planned. How long will this soap opera go on now, as it's almost 4pm and I'm looking for dinner. BTW, did posting to MartinPhi get you upset and Mastcell et al filled with this conspiracy idea, too? Well, he's the only guy I remember besides you, and I know how touchy you can get, so never bothered to post to you directly. Now that I have, why don't you get a chill pill? Being uptight is bad for you, even conventional medicine knows this! Sockpuppet now? PARANOIA CITY!! FResearcher (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

My concerns about this editor are encapsulated here, here, and here. This is a newly active account with a pre-formed grudge against specific editors and a reliance on aggressive, WP:BATTLE-oriented harangues and legal threats. I'm not familiar with Profg (talk · contribs) and am curious about the rationale for concluding these accounts are related, but in the grand scheme of things this is headed nowhere fast. MastCell  20:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If you take a look at User:Profg's patterns of editing, I think you'll see that they are very similar to this person's. They both hail from the same geographical location (in the case of profg, we actually know who he is). They both edit Scientific Dissent from Darwinism-related pages before following on to areas of alternative medicine and fringe theories. The similarities are uncanny. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Still upping the ante, Mastcell? Time is 20:00 on your post, and I'm waiting for an answer if you can check IPs. Or does Misplaced Pages just allow superadmins such access? Because Mastcell, despite being an admin, you're actually doing what admins are told never to do -- join a dispute (and now posting on a sockpuppetry topic to even heighten it more). By joining the dispute you actually become part of the problem, not the solution. Something any admin understands either by learning or is taught. FResearcher (talk) 20:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I cannot check IP's. What I've learned, as an admin, is to avoid being baited. At least, it's not going to be that easy. :) Casting me as your opponent and attacking me isn't going to work. I've expressed concern over your behavior, in an administrative role, and reiterated those concerns above. They revolve largely around your determination to turn everything into a fight, and you're reinforcing my concerns at present. MastCell  20:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, this and his previous comment in this very thread is beyond the pale. Could someone give him a block? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm just going to wait for the IP check. It's all a big comedy to watch this unfold. But SA, I expect an apology after the check comes in, here and on my userpage, when you're told how wrong you are. Just because I come here knowing something about you doesn't mean I know anyone personally in your battles (I've read the infighting for months, that's how I know you and these dynamics. I'm a researcher afterall). FResearcher (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

C'mon people! Why do I have to put up with people harassing me this way? What did I ever do to him to deserve this? Some administrator, please start doing your voluntary job already. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The editor has also engaged in what an uninvolved (in that particular part of the thread) editor called a personal attack bordering on a Legal Threat. The editor seems incapable of maintaining a linear awareness of their own words, as well. After characterizing all the opposition as a 'status quo' monolithic cabal, and literally bucking for a fight, he continues to act out. ThuranX (talk) 20:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I am familiar with Profg and this user does not look to me to be anything like him. I seriously doubt that they are the same. (I am not as of yet offering an opinion on a block for other reasons - just saying that they are almost certainly not the same person.) Following the editing restrictions that I imposed on him as a condition of his unblock, Profg's edits were under very high scrutiny and he created a sockpuppet presumably to avoid that scrutiny. Obviously, that was unacceptable and once it was discovered that he was violating the terms of his unblock with this sockpuppet, I reinstated his block. However, there's no reason to believe, based on a checkuser at the time, that he had socked before or since then. --B (talk) 20:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Just as a sidenote, something like would be way over Profg's head. They are pretty definitely not the same person. I'm inclined to support (or at least not be terribly opposed) to a block on FResearcher for other reasons, though (just generally making things a battleground, trying to pick a fight). --B (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

LHVU has blocked him indefinitely. Good block (though the block summary is unusual). Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I certainly can't argue with that. MastCell  20:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

My rationale, which I expanded upon on FResearchers talkpage, is that they represented themselves as a newbie a couple of sections above, yet a little while later in this section was dictating to Mastcell what a sysop may or may not do. I found the two statements to be incompatible, and concluded that FResearcher had deliberately misrepresented themselves earlier. Such evident bad faith lead me to take the action I did. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I also support this block. It was a very strange turn of events, and this user suddenly seemed to really have it in for SA. If I've acted incorrectly in any of this, feel free to drop me a (gentle!) note. Verbal chat 20:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm also endorsing the block. His tirades and his escalation elsewhere and in this thread was inexcusable. seicer | talk | contribs 22:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse, per Seicer et al. No great loss to the project. --John (talk) 00:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Side point - please ask ScienceApologist not to delete my comments on the ANI page. this is the second or third time he's done it, and it's a little rude... --Ludwigs2 00:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Diffs? ThuranX (talk) 02:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

in this discussion, here, and in a now-archived discussion here. if he feels my comments are unfair, that's would certainly have been worth discussing, and I might even have been convinced to edit my own statements. but just simply removing them is an unfortunate act. --Ludwigs2 04:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I've opposed SA's blankings before, and even reverted them at times. However, in the fist case, you were adding salt to a wound. 'A grain of truth' in FResearcher's ridiculous tauntings? Come off it. SA did the right thing this time by just deleting the attack. As to the second, bringing up a three week old infraction isn't worth the time. Should've said something then. ThuranX (talk) 05:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, FResearcher's response to being accused of being a sockpuppet when a cursory glance at edits makes it obvious he is not Profg wasn't overly out of whack. He felt he was being harassed and lashed out in response. That doesn't justify his actions then or other times, but I think that was probably the "grain of truth" that Ludwigs2 was talking about. SA's personal attacks in edit summaries (, ) are inappropriate. This response here is way out of whack with what FResearcher said if the accusation is false (which I contain it obviously is). So that's the "grain of truth", I believe. WP:NPA#Removal_of_text encourages caution removing personal attacks, especially when you are the "victim", so no, I can't really endorse SA's removal here at all. --B (talk) 11:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Obama / McCain article probation

A discussion a few days ago on this subject was archived. Now that ArbCom has declined to hear a case on the matter I've created a new page where we can continue the discussion, and a proposal that incorporated and synthesized some of the older discussion. It is at Talk:Barack Obama/article probation‎. Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong way to notify / propose and feel free to fix. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 21:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A bit redundant, since Talk:Obama/Article_probation? Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

How did I miss that? I didn't intend to create a discussion fork. Is the proposal in place or still under discussion? Wikidemo (talk) 21:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't for discussion (so yours should be okay) but more of a record of the proposal being enacted, and was pending a clear consensus in the thread. However, the thread was archived (not by me) before clear consensus could be called. :S Um. I have to log off for quite a while, but

I'm thinking the proposal is in place? :S It wasn't for discussion like the link you've made but I wouldn't object to the community of sysops clarifying their position on this. (In no particular order) MastCell, seicer, Cailil, SWATJester, Gamaliel, Rick Block, Moreschi, and other sysops who are somewhat familiar with the turbulent history...your input is invited. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm never clear on what, exactly, article probation accomplishes. It allows admins to sanction disruptive editors? We're already supposed to do that. I suppose it's useful as a warning to all involved that the article is under scrutiny, and that tolerance for bad behavior or misuse of the encyclopedia will be lower than average. MastCell  21:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's makes the sanctions binding when placed by an uninvolved admin - that's why these measures are imposed at ArbCom too, because ordinarily it won't necessarily be binding unless the consensus is clear by the community to make it binding. My understanding anyway. And yes, it also means that the article is under scrutiny...etc. etc. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of it also as a heightened standard of civility, and avoidance of edit warring, the availability to neutral administrators of an enhanced set of specialized tools they can use without needing to first gather consensus, specialized procedures and pages for dealing with behavioral issues (and a prohibition on dealing with them on talk pages or edit summaries), and the binding thing.Wikidemo (talk) 21:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is under scrutiny. The thing is that there are only a couple of admins dealing with the issue. What is needed is the view of uninvolved admins and not that of the same usual names (in no particular order). It would be better if admins would work on a priority basis but we understand the fact that admins are volunteers (same as editors) and some of them would rather intervene in an area familiar to them. The ArbCom cannot intervene when it comes to a content dispute; which is natural (there was something to note about the sockpuppetry accusation in this case however). The admins neither.

P.S. For better results, it would be better if thgis discussion be held on AN. -- FayssalF - 21:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Should a proposal for article probation be made there then? Is that the way to go about it? Perhaps an enhanced / streamlined set of expectations for participating administrators in dealing with the article could make it a more comfortable place to help, and also enhance the effectiveness of those who do. Wikidemo (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Wikidemo. I did something similar 2 days ago. I DECLARED a topic ban there. 48h. No response. I notified the parties appropriately. I understand now that the articles I've requested to be put under probation ARE under probation. But was I an "involved party". I don't know but both parties trust me... So I haven't heard from any of them. -- FayssalF - 22:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

P.S. This has just came to my mind. All the above was not meant to describe all involved admins as biased. I've got no idea about that. Nuffin'. -- FayssalF - 22:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

One possibility would be to embargo the articles so that every fact newer than November 2006 is prohibited from appearing until after November 2008. The exception would be a 3 sentence summary of the period Nov 06 to Nov 08. That sentence could be that the two received the most delegates, who they ran against, and the election is Nov 08. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper.

This suggestion would eliminate all the fighting over the campaign issues, he did this, he flip/flopped, etc.

The other possibility would be that a committee consider each edit. If the committee approved mention in one article, then it must appear in the other article. For example, both Senate careers would be written in the same way. Chergles (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

These are biographies, not articles about campaigns - the two people have very different lives and careers, and their biographies by definition are going to be different from one another, as they should be. That's not what the problems have been about. We already have separate articles for each presidential campaign. Although it's well-meaning, I don't think this suggestion is practical or addresses the problem. Tvoz/talk 07:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Legal threat at American Indoor Football Association

A new editor claims to be associated with this organization and threatened legal action in edit summary ccwaters (talk) 22:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put a {{uw-legal}} on his talk page, so hopefully one won't actually be filed. But, unless one is I don't believe we need to block him. It would highly help if sources were provided to show the information if false, though. Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 23:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the changes due to them being unsourced, along with POV stuff like "a great season"... as well as reverting a bogus "legal threat", on principle. Such a threat equates to vandalism and is against the rules. As well as being ridiculous in this case. Baseball Bugs 23:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, such a threat is a legal threat, which is rather more serious than vandalism. He should be blocked if he does it again. - Revolving Bugbear 00:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

All the more reason to revert. The user Lifebaka posted a nice friendly "Welcome" note along with a threat of his own - to cease and desist or else. The red-link has only made the one posting, so I'm guessing he's gone on to something else. If not, he'll be served a rid of Haybeah's corpse, or an ex-postal fax, or something. Baseball Bugs 00:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but my understanding of the policy on legal threats is that legal threat=block. Period. No discussion. Individuals making legal threats are not allowed to edit here as long as the threat stands. Of course, he's only made the one edit, so blocking may be irrelevant. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not always, as noted in Misplaced Pages:No legal threats. It depends. And my guess is that if he doesn't come back, nothing will happen. If he does, making the same threats, he's probably toast. Baseball Bugs 01:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And he's back, and while not making legal threats, he's still got no clue of how to do things, so I reverted him again as I would any other vandal. Putting "This is correct version!" in the lead of the article is hardly "encyclopedic". Baseball Bugs 06:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

He's also been talked to, in an even-handed way, by an editor with some good suggestions. Baseball Bugs 06:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(OD)I hope that's me. I've tried to steer him to the right WP pages, and suggested he go to the talk page and explain (and reference) what's bothering him so much. Hope it works. Dayewalker (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest pointing him to the WP:OFFICE, and in the mean time, get teh article sourced up solidly. ThuranX (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

He's now engaged in some degree of dialogue and apologized (to me alone, for some odd reason) for the legal threat. There appears to be some hope. Baseball Bugs 06:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hijinx and tomfoolery

The following single-purpose IP's have recently appeared with the seeming intent of unduly influencing the heated debate ongoing at Talk:John Edwards, some of which have leveled personal attacks:

• 128.118.230.17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 72.72.203.224 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 72.72.203.224‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log)
• 72.84.238.77 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 68.73.57.71 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 66.41.56.83 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Given references to past events (specifically repeated tirades about the liberal cabal of Blaxthos and Gamaliel), I suspect that we're dealing with Jsn9333 (talk · contribs), who disappeared shortly after he was sanctioned at ANI. In previous circumstances he admitted to sock and/or meatpuppetry specifically from PA (at least 2 of the IP's above are from same city/state that Jsn9333 referenced).

• Jsn9333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 69.244.181.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Any help would be appreciated. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At least some of these IP's are clearly related. One is the Penn State mobile network, which I'm a bit loathe to block. I think one could consider semi-protection of the talk page, given the influx of IP's, brand-new accounts, and Gawker.com spamming, but I'm not too excited about this since it prevents new users from even participating in the discussion and is probably a net negative. I would consider ignoring obvious provocation and removing posts which blatantly abuse the article talk page, as well as ongoing spam from Gawker.com. MastCell  23:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You've hit all the nails on the head. My concern is that semiprotection of the talk page would cause more problems than it solves, and since there are no (obvious) registered accounts. Another admin suggested someone run a checkuser to see if there are any related accounts. I've not acknowledged the baiting other than to report it here. Thanks for the help so far. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation & escalation

Check out the latest personal attack, along with confirmation that this is a character from episodes past (see RYNORT (talk · contribs)). A two-fer... /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalking - Badagnani

Badagnani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has been stalking me all day, harassing me to the point of the shakes. I cannot do anything with out him:

• undoing my changes and edits;
• putting merge or delete tags on articles or templates I have created;
• contesting changes that I make;
• claiming names that I chose for new templates were "unencyclopedic" and moving them, in some cases breaking the edit bar functions or creating circular redirects.

This stems from the {{Herbs & spices}} template which I was working on for the past 7-10 days. I merged another template with it and he disagreed with the merge, so an admin locked the templates down and started a discussion here on weather we should revert the edits or keep them merged. After seven days, the discussion produced no consensus for keeping the templates separate. Once the protection was removed, I continued with the merge, and that is when he began the whole stalking thing. The other template, {{Herb and spice mixtures}}, had not been updated or reviewed in months and I set about removing it because it was no longer used, he kept removing the deletion tags. I also created several other templates, {{Commercial herbs & spices}}, {{Medicinal herbs & spices}} and {{marinades}}, to deal with issues that I and others had brought up over the past few months on the discussion page. Once these articles were created, he jumped all over them with the issues I have listed above. I am ready to create a last template about historical herbs and spices at {{historical herbs & spices}} but am afraid of what he will do once I create it.

He has had a consistent history of abuse and problematic behavior on numerous articles that he has worked on, the last time he did this was at the Tan Kai article which resulted in another block on him, his seventh. He also has a habit of using language that appears to make him appear as the victim or the straight & narrow editor correcting wrongs by wording his edit summaries with WP buzzwords such as consensus, discussion, reverting blanking etc., when in actuality he is the on violating these rules.

I have had to take two breaks today to get away from this guy and cannot take it any more. I am so upset, I can barely type. Could some one please do something, I cannot get anything productive done with him following me on every edit I make.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 23:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've notified the editor of this discussion for a start. Toddst1 (talk) 23:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are to the point of shakes, I would step away from the computer and come back after a day or two. Don't let Misplaced Pages affect your physical health. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I took a third break after writing this and am going for the forth, but I thank you for your concerns. Editing and writing usually relaxes me and gets my creative juices flowing. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I will chime in here as I have worked with both Jeremy and Badagnani on different articles. I have always found Jeremy to be a thoughtful and studious editor who works for the best of Misplaced Pages, he uses the Misplaced Pages boldness philosophy well as it helps Misplaced Pages get past a stale level of mediocrity in many of the edits he makes. It is this boldness that seems to bother Badagnani in both Jeremy's edits and in mine in the past and a look at Badagnani's revert history, it seems the same with others as he feels that he has ownership over certain realms of Misplaced Pages and when someone edits something without "his permission" he goes on a coy attack with utilizing those "catch phrases" which Jeremy mentioned such as "consensus" which is a term he uses to make him look like the good guy, but I have seen through it as he has tossed it at me a number of times. As I have had interaction with this user, I do not feel it appropriate for me to make any recommendations as an Admin. towards him as it would be a conflict of interest, but his actions have become extremely aggressive as one can see that he is following all of the edits which Jeremy is making. I myself have had to close my laptop for a day to calm myself down from interactions with him. He has been accused of "stalking" other editors and harassing other editors as well in the past. His interactions with myself and others on Korean cuisine and its talk page are a prime example of how this user interacts with many users on Misplaced Pages. Badagnani does make some good contributions to the project, sadly he is incapable of "playing well with others".--Chef Tanner (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Just adding my two cents here, I have an ambivalent feeling toward Badagnani due to his behaviors. His contributions and passion for Korean cuisine or other cuisine related articles are helpful to expand contents in general, and I appreciate that. On the other hand, his ownership attitude and inserting original research to articles reduce his positive aspects much. His stubbornness on what he believe right and think that articles should be in order by his own definition makes hard to work with editors here. The above "incident" began actually a content dispute between Jeremy and Badaganani. Therefore, it ought to be fully discussed between people before merging the existing templates, although I believe the merging is a good idea for handling articles pertaining to herbs and spices and for increasing better accessibility to both editors and readers. The cases of wiki-stalking should be noted to the user to prevent him from doing so. --Caspian blue (talk) 20:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like just to add my experience. I had many problems cooperation with Badagnani as well. This user refused to cooperate, started an edit war, didn't seem to care about Misplaced Pages policy etc. You can check my talk page for the way this user tried to handle as issue he/she thought he/she was right. The situation ended with a 72 hours block of this user. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I want to say that I agree with the others, Badagnani has made many useful contributions, and I have had positive interaction with him in the past. The problem that occurs is when he goes over the top and starts up his aggressive behaviors. Once he starts, he won't back down, and escalates until he ends up damaging himself and angering others. While I have had brushes with his negativity in the past, this is the first time I have encountered the full brunt of his wrath with his personal attack on me.

This behavior, when it comes to the fore, is the problem. It makes all of the good he has done worthless, his behavior is self destructive and disruptive. He needs a serious reprimand, or he will continue this behavior ad infinitum. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 22:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I can't really say too much about this so-called 'stalking', since I have not had an issue with Badagnani. To me, he's just another user who had (or still has) improper font rendering support for the Khmer script, which prompted my comment on his talk page (which was at the time, coïnciding with his block). However, judging from the rest of his talk page, he is capable of good contributions as well as bad. It is in my opinion however, that both Jeremy and Badagnani are inciting each other to keep edit warring. One because he agrees, the other because he disagrees with the proposals. The other problem is because neither of you wait for a third party to add his or her imput on the matter at hand, as Willscrlt had suggested, you should promote the discussion, not believe that your sole opinion or his/her sole opinion are the end-all result within 8 days. Usually, 2 weeks is a good time to wait after proposing a merge (unless no one disagrees). - Io Katai (talk) 23:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply I tried to have the discussion moved to the main Wikiproject Food and Drink talk page as I knew that there would be no solution reached on the Herbs and Spices taskforce talk page. The offer was declined by Badagnani. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 00:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Fredrick day

I've been taking flack for blocking User:Frederick day as a sock of indef blocked User:Fredrick day then reverting all his edits as a banned user. The thing is, is he banned? I said yes considering the length of time since his block, the fact he's created socks to evade that block and no admin has so forward as being willing to unblock. Others may disagree though so I'd appreciate comments on whether or not he's banned. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, anyone is free to revert my revert of any edits that are perceived constructive - you'll obviously take responsibility for the edit, but it's no big deal IMO. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

An editor is banned, de facto, by virtue of being indefinitely blocked with no administrator willing to unblock. In the past, there has been dispute over whether a single admin was sufficient to reverse that presumption— but this does not appear to be the case for User:Fredrick day. As far as I'm concerned, this is a banned user and the block-revert of his sock is exactly correct. — Coren  00:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Per the banning policy - a defacto ban ONLY exists as long as noone is willing to overturn - if soemone is, then the defacto ban cannot exist. A community ban needs consensus to be overturned, not a lone voice(just clearing things up for everyone). Viridae 06:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd keep his contributions reverted for now, as per WP:BAN. —Mizu onna sango15 00:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the user being blocked, though I dunno about edit reversion or if he's formally banned. I mean, I certainly wouldn't unblock him, though it seems that this incarnation's edits weren't all bad. If there's support for a ban I'll add it in myself, though I'm looking through the edits now to see if there are any that are really needed to remain, but for now I'll hold off. Wizardman 00:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, revert any that you wish - you take responsibility for the edit, but if they're constructive, there's no problems at all. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide examples of who was criticizing your action? It seems to be exactly appropriate and precisely following all guidelines on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's one. I don't want to make a big deal about it, but finding someone reverting your talk page in order to remove an innocuous comment by another editor, without explanation, is rather disconcerting and looks like vandalism. If I hadn't gone looking for this report here I wouldn't have any idea what was going on. --Escape Orbit 09:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I had posted, a short while ago, a notice here about Fredrick day. Frederick day helpfully moved it to an existing discussion (where he also acknowledged being Fredrick day), and where it may have been a bit buried. I'll remember that trick if I ever need to cover something up. As to reverting all the edits as a banned user, my major complaint about that would be that Ryan's revert didn't state that as the basis, the one I saw. My guess is that most of those edits were basically good edits. I restored the one that I saw that Ryan had reverted. In my report here, I noted that he was not necessarily being disruptive (beyond the fact of block evasion), though he was certainly assertive -- which can be a problem dealing with new editors. He originally "sacrificed" this sock to point out to User:DGG about problems with what has now become Iraq War misappropriations. I did go ahead and complete some of the work he was doing on that article, I hope he finds it an improvement. I'd suggest to his friends -- or other editors -- that following after Special:Contributions/Frederick day or Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite and restoring the ones that are appropriate could be a good thing. Ryan is correct, though: you will be taking responsibility for them, as if they were your own. I'll restore ones that I happen to see. After checking. --Abd (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

before following up on his request at my talk page, I did check prior history--the name was so close that with my usual insensitivity to spelling I thought it was exactly the same & was puzzled to see it. (Abd helpfully reminded me to use caution, just in case I hadn't noticed.) That and a subsequent complaint were quite to the point. We seem to have a dichotomy between our insistence on removing work of indefinitely blocked editors and suggesting the pick a new user name and behave impeccably & nobody will notice. DGG (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it was WTF time for me for a while, until I figured it must be a variant spelling.... There should be no insistence on removing the work of blocked editors, but it is generally legitimate to do so, that is, any editor who thinks it to be safer for the project to blanket revert. Anyone else can then review and restore what they are willing to take responsibility for. When I did this for another blocked editor, Fred called it something like meat puppetry, which, of course, it wasn't. Ironically, one of Fd's little pranks was, when he knew I was watching his IP edits, and reverting most of them, to sprinkle some traps in BLPs. It's actually the only time I've gotten a serious warning. I figured that if some bad text had stood for months in a BLP, it wouldn't hurt for it to stand for a day more. But, no, the sense at AN/BLP was that this was a terrible thing and that each edit should be checked before removal, and I got a personal autographed warning Stop Now, Do Not Pass Go from Newyorkbrad. (The BLPs that were involved were for porn stars, and the allegedly defamatory material that I restored was actually well-sourced and not controversial. But it looked bad, and Fd knew it. Since I didn't care to do the research to find the most sterling, reliable source, I just dropped it. Did I really care if an article on a porn star had all the facts? Or, for that matter, that each and every edit of Fd be removed? No to both questions.) I would not have advised removing all those edits.... but Ryan was free to do so. I think Fred was on good behavior. Nothing I've seen was clearly bad, or uncivil by Misplaced Pages standards, and, in fact, I've reverted back most of what I've seen. I even voted Delete in an AfD that Fred had voted in, reverted out. Yes, pigs can fly and hell sometimes freezes over, but it was really a quite bad article that Fred found. Look, my position is that we need all kinds of editors, and my big objection to Fred was the incivility and edit warring. If he could learn to cooperate consistently (it looks like he's capable of it), he'd be a valuable member of the community. He did some awful stuff. But we don't -- and shouldn't -- punish. Just protect. --Abd (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Weren't you the leader of the brigade which had the User:Allemantando account indef blocked despite an evident change in attitude? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no. I was someone who noticed that Allemantando was possibly Fredrick day within about two days of registration, was involved in nascent edit wars with him and saw the damage done, but didn't do anything serious for almost a month, even though I saw disruption early on. I arranged for a friend of his to try to restrain him, and it worked, a little. But when he pushed and baited and continued to make a huge fuss about the mere fact that his edits and behavior were visible, I finally filed an SSP report and RfCU. And I don't recall demanding he be blocked. The fact is that he bailed before the process was complete. If he had simply come clean, or, later, had been willing to negotiate terms of a return, he might be editing yet. As has been shown, he could still be editing if he simply were discreet about it.

The rest I pick such obvious names is because of the level of hypocrisy this project displays. Everytime, I get blocked, invariably I get an message off one administrator or another who basically says "just sock quietly and avoid the areas you edited before" (and half the time it's the same admin who are here saying 'block this disruptive editor'). I don't want to sock quietly - if I wanted to do that, I could and would be entirely undetectable by the community - CU is a fairly blunt tool that is easy to avoid. But I don't want to do that, I've never wanted to do that because it avoids community oversight on my action and past conduct. I'm not being blocked anymore as a preventative measure, my block is now a punishment block - none of my accounts (whatever claims are made here and people can check the logs) were blocked or warned (*never* warned) for their conduct or editing beyond that week of fuckwittery towards the end of my time as Fredrick day (which is what? five months ago?) they are simply blocked for being me. The last time I went looking for unblock a couple of weeks ago and was discussing it with a number of admins, by an *amazing* coincidence - some edits from an ISP (*not* an IP, an ISP - one that has ten million customers) that it's said I've used in the past were dragged up and that was used to kick me to the kerb once again. It's a neat trick because at one time, I used all of the five largest ISPs in the UK - so with @ 25 million customers - I can be kicked to the kerb forever at simply saying "there he is!". --87.113.75.200 (talk) 09:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And he still doesn't understand. Yes, the current case of User:Frederick day is an example where an editor who was editing within norms was blocked because of prior activity. The problem is that when someone has been disruptive, again and again, we start to expect it even if they aren't being disruptive right now. This is not punishment, it's protective, even though in this particular case, there is little difference in the action between protection and punishment. By extensive, in-your-face, I-can-do-anything-I-want-and-you-can't-stop-me, yes, Fd has set up conditions where he probably cannot quietly edit unless he avoids any ... disruptive behavior. The problem, again, is that the difference between "disruption" and "strong editing" is not crisp, at all. The situation is really classic. Once an editor attracts sufficient negative attention to be blocked with a block that sticks, even if that editor returns and behaves in a manner that would normally hardly raise an eyebrow, those who oppose the editor's approach will scrutinize the behavior for flaws. Take a look at User:PHG. It's been quiet lately, no huge fuss seems to be current, but he's been blocked for *good* edits that allegedly violated an ArbComm restriction, when, on the face of it, they did not, and when that was pointed out, it was "wikilawyering."

But if we are concerned about justice, I'd suggest looking at how Fredrick day behaved with respect to the block of User:Sarsaparilla, who had done very, very little to deserve being blocked, who was blocked without warning for offenses that, again, would hardly raise an eyebrow. And who pursued his block-evading socks? Why, none other than our friend, Fredrick day. Sarsaparilla was creating excellent articles, making good edits, etc., and it was all being removed because he was a block evader. Where was Fredrick day then? If he's going to write about hypocrisy, perhaps he should look at what he could actually know directly, what is visible to him when he's not on the internet. It's a good place to start, actually.

He is almost certainly lying about the IP. But if not, remember the story about the boy who cried wolf? That coincidence won't continue to happen. It was not merely that the IP was from a major service provider (he's exaggerated the risk of that), it was the content and coincidence of articles of concern. Sure, there are lots of editors out there who might, say, vandalize a user page. How many vandalize my user page? Not very many. Take a look, they almost all came from his location. Is there something about me that enrages certain Brits? Very recently, there has been Fd-like behavior from the 87.112-87.115 range, edit warring with ... me. But the article is Routemaster. Did I try to get this IP blocked because it could be Fd? No. I asked for semiprotection. The IP is still welcome to contribute. With discussion. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And Fredrick day is still welcome to return as an editor, if he will openly acknowledge what he did, all of it -- which allows for the possibility that he's not the only person in the world who might do something nasty -- and if he will then engage not to repeat the behavior, and accept a short leash for a while. That's all. It was offered before, and he simply bailed. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I still reckon that pursuing an unblock of the original account is better than trying to get back in via socks. From what I recall, several of the "the should never come back ever, socks are bad" comments came from users who have been happy to approve the overturning of permablocks on accounts for editors they like. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But it's not going to happen - I've socked and therefore I must be *punished* regardless of what any of the accounts were actually doing. --87.113.75.200 (talk) 10:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

From as I see it, your block is preventative, because you are constantly making new names to draw attention to your self, which is disruptive. Hard work and remorse are a better way to win support than flouting rules and showing off while doing it. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the original question, I would urge Ryan to WP:IAR and stop unconditionally reverting FDay's changes. The reason we have the rule that contribs from banned editors can be removed is so that we don't have to vet every single change to see if it was in good faith or bad faith. Especially in the case of pov pushers or subtle vandals, that can be challenging.

But FDay's issue was never one of good faith or of constructive edits; it was one of civility and assertiveness. There is no reason to believe his contribs were in bad faith. If he made personal attacks that offended other people, the damage has already been done. I just don't see a purpose in reverting his changes, and so I would say WP:IAR and stop doing it. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I reverted him as a banned editor - they aren't allowed to edit, so we remove any edits that they do manage to make. I'll do that in the future as well - if someone wants to take responsibility of the edit, they are free to revert me back and take control of the edit - it's no big deal, but that's what we do with banned editors. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you can understand that if a user is allowed to make socks to get around his block and continues to act disruptively, than you cannot use "IAR", because IAR is for the best of the encyclopedia, and allowing people to think that they can get away with such disruptive actions are not for the best. Also, by going around and making multiple socks and acting in the manner that he just did above as an IP (assuming that is he), then he has broken AGF by his own admission. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Actually, the relevant section of the policy only state that banned users' comments "may" be reverted, so you don't even need WP:IAR; the policy even goes out of its way to say that it isn't the case that helpful edits "must" be reverted. -- (nonadmin) _{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

@Ottava: I'm not saying that FDay should be allowed back to the project just yet. Granted, I really wish he'd stop with the IP socking and such, because I thought as Allemandtando he was a very valuable and civil contributor -- but I absolutely agree we can't let people back under these conditions.

I'm just saying that wholesale reversion of all of his contribs is unnecessary and not beneficial to the project. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Question On a related note, is anyone willing to unblock him? We certainly have a continuum of views about his reasons for socking to avoid the ban. but I view the creation of an account "frederick day" after "fredrick day" as an inartful unblock request. So does anyone want to step forward and unblock him? Protonk (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There was a recent discussion on ANI (somebody wanna dig it up?) about allowing Frederick to return from the desert and contribute to the community. While it is largely recognized that most of his contribs these days are positive and that he probably has a genuine desire to contribute in good faith, the consensus was that using socks and IP socks to demonstrate as such is inappropriate, and to unblock him would be to reward sockpuppetry, thereby screwing up any deterrence effect we have in regards to block-evading socks.

The preferred method to rejoin the community would be to quit it with the socks and contribute to a different Wikimedia project for a few months, to regain community trust. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree (as a non-admin), that that would be more helpful. la-wp could do with more helpers if he wants a suggestion. (you might learn something too!) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that an outcome like that is self enforcing and sclerotic. We shouldn't treat bans/indef blocks as broad philosophical stances. We should treat them as actions against editors for disrupting the community (or rather, to prevent future disruption to the community). this isn't a moot court, so specific case by case actions shouldn't impact future decisions about unrelated incidents. To be clear, I'm only responding to you because you are the messenger. I'm not assuming you share those feelings or that you should share in my distaste for that outcome. I'm not an admin (and if I were, I wouldn't unblock him because I'm 'involved'), but the community shouldn't be motivated to take a hard stance against 'issue X' in such a fashion. Protonk (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Given his persistent socking, I've hardblocked his range 87.115.0.0/18 for a week. MBisanz 17:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

that doesn't block me - so someone might want to want to look into that because it affects other editors rather than me. --87.114.36.65 (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now are you blocked? MBisanz 19:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Frederick Day, can you please stop? It is actions like this which causes a problem and harms the community. If you really want to edit and contribute to Misplaced Pages to make it better, why do you continue to act in this manner? Its harmful, causes problems, and increases tension. It is not really fair to a lot of the members of the community. If you would come back to merely apologize, that would be one thing. However, this seems rather harmful and distressing. I implore you, can you stop these actions? Sure, you may feel slighted. Sure, you may feel that some people contradict each other. But there are a lot of good people out there that are affected by the things you do. At least think of them. There will be range blocks to stop you, which will cause problems. There will be sock checks to find you, which will cause problems. Innocent people will probably be hindered. Why will this happen? Because of your insistence to act in a "rebellious" manner, and for what reason? What purpose do you really hope to get out of all of this? Attention? To upset things? If you merely want to be respected and have your posting privileges returned, then you need to realize the damages that come about from your actions and stop this. Give it some time. Get in contact with some of the blocking admin. Prove that you want to help, not hinder, and please stop going about this in the manner that you are doing now. It won't help. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless there's obvious opposition, he is officially banned as of now. Wizardman 22:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that I agree with the idea of a formal ban. Frederick day has been a disruptive user at times, has socked quite a bit, but they have quite a lot of constructive edits intermixed with them. I think they do have some intent of constructively editing to the project, but obviously, for now, he won't be unblocked. I'd suggested to him that he edits another project for a few months, to show that he can constructively edit Misplaced Pages, and then return here and seek a review of his indef block. I disagree with the upgrading of the indef block to a formal ban, and I'm probably standing alone here, but if that's the case, then so be it. I wanted to make my opposition known. Steve Crossin (talk) (contact page) 23:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Forget it steve - in many ways, I'm actually glad to see a bit of clarity - it beats what's go on behind the scenes for the last month "how long does blocked forever mean? FOREVER", "so should I just start a new account in secret ? NO BECAUSE YOU WILL BE BLOCKED FOREVER", "couldn't we discuss some criteria for my return? NO BECAUSE YOU ARE BLOCKED FOREVER", "So I might as well just edit in secret ? NO BECAUSE YOU WILL BE BLOCKED FOREVER AND A DAY". At least this way, my block will be shown for what it is - a ban. --85.214.34.238 (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)First of all, Fredrick day is pretty much impossible to block, without advanced systems that we don't have in place. They could be put in place, but Misplaced Pages is almost paralyzed from my point of view. Whack it on the head and a finger twitches. Short of some major structural changes, in how we utilize our volunteer labor, I'll repeat it: it is impossible to block him. He has access to not just one IP network, but many, and easily. He's said that he can pick up a number of unsecured routers in his neighborhood (which is clearly densely populated). It's believable. In addition, he has one or more direct access providers, with one or more major ISPs. The range 87.112 - 87.115 is obviously one of them, I'd guess that he gets a new address in that range just by rebooting his modem. Then, should you block that entire range, he just picks up a neighbor's router. Or maybe he walks down the block to an internet cafe. Or maybe he drives around in his car. You can, with a lot of effort, and a fair amount of inconvenience to other users, make it slightly inconvenient for him. That's about it. I gave up a long time ago asking for IP blocks, even when his IP persists for a day. Oh, did I mention that he knows how to use proxies? Now, the real trick: if what he's stated in the past has been true (which must always be questioned with him), he has other accounts, so all this talk about registering a new account and editing quietly is ... rather silly. I suspect that he has specific IP *and computers* that he uses for these other accounts. In other words, the only way to even get close to identifying him would be behaviorally. And he's careful. He changes his behavior. Now, from various clues, I have come to suspect certain users. And I am not going to reveal who they are, unless I find I could actually prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and even then I might not reveal it. Why? Because punishing Fredrick day has never been my motive.

If he's got an account that is not disruptive, I wouldn't go after it, generally. I didn't act quickly on Frederick day (the new spelling), thought about it for a day, and then did file a report. After others had already acted, apparently. I filed a report, months ago, on another suspected sock -- the only one that didn't result in a clear identification -- based on an IP "accident" and some behavioral evidence. It came back "possible." Perhaps because of the IP. Partly because there is a good chance the editor is not Fd, but mainly because the editor wasn't disruptive, I dropped it. Again, assuming it wasn't him, that is part of the damage from extensive socking. It creates suspicion. Fredrick day is claiming that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't -- so he might as well do it. But that is a very old and very dangerous argument, and it shows, unfortunately, that the welfare of the project isn't first on his mind. His own opinions are first, his own unrestricted freedom of action comes first. So, he will continue to remain blocked, I'll predict, at least for the time being. With the accounts that, as he has said many times, he "wants us to see." The others, he continues to do what he wants, and he's careful to keep them partitioned.

Fredrick day showed, in his actions as Fd and as Allemandtando, a certain kind of poisonous attitude. When I came to suspect other editors, I saw that same poisonous attitude, only restrained, only expressed when the editor felt safe. Are they Fredrick day? That certainly doesn't prove it. There is plenty of poison to go around, and if Fd's computers were to melt down and he became indisposed, Misplaced Pages would still have to deal with massive incivility and factional division. He isn't the cause, and so I don't consider "getting rid of him" to be the solution. I'd rather try to find a way to include him. But that won't happen until he also recognizes what I've been saying. It's not personal.

As to deleting his contributions, the bottom line is that any editor may do it. I don't recommend it, but, on the other hand, in reviewing some of the User:Frederick day edits, there is a certain edge to them. He was correct, generally, that is, I haven't seen any edits that would, properly, even result in a warning. However, a very experienced user popping into obscure articles that are being edited by the clueless, who doesn't take them by the hand, welcoming them and guiding them through our sometimes arcane process, but figuratively bonks them over the head with Misplaced Pages rules, this does some damage. So there is some value in reverting him; on the other hand, it can raise false hopes for the clueless. Whew! -- they think -- dodged that bullet! And then comes the AfD and it snows Delete. I found it a rewarding exercise to follow Frederick's edits in detail and to restore some and to deal differently with others. He was always "right," so far, but his actions weren't always the best that could be done, because of that missing welcoming element. Bottom line: there is no policy requiring his edits to be reverted, nor those of any blocked editor. But any editor may revert on sight, without harm, except for the BLP problem I mentioned above. And if someone doesn't like it, they can revert them back, thus taking responsibility for them. If his friends care about his contributions, they are perfectly welcome to take up what I've done to a small degree: review all his edits and restore the ones where reversion was a loss. And then, if someone doesn't like that restoration, they have someone to complain to, a responsible party. --Abd (talk) 23:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Japanese war crimes/Yamashita's gold (third redux)

User:JimBobUSA has been warned many times about lawyering through the frivolous/unwarranted use of templates like {{disputed}}, {{refimprove}} and {{cn}}. Such practices are combined with his own deletion of credible/reliable references, such as a long article by notable historian Chalmers Johnson, from the London Review of Books, from Yamashita's gold, while misrepresenting it as a "novel". He has given up on that, but is now attempting similar actions at Japanese war crimes This suggests that he either does not know, or does not care, about the difference between: (1) novels, (2) scholarly books and (3) book reviews.

I have been involved with various disputes with User:JimBobUSA regarding the content of the Yamashita's gold article. Protracted, agonising discussion with him goes nowhere. He seems impermeable to reason and viewpoints other than his own prejudices. He did not respond at all to my suggestion of formal mediation on January 14. User:JimBobUSA seems prone to lawyering and to be disinterested in consensus and cooperation.

This all seems to be related to a personal agenda. As User:Hesperian noted here on 18 July:

This thread seems to sum up the problem with JimBobUSA rather nicely. If JimBobUSA disagrees with a statement, it cannot on any account be included. Even a straightforward statement like "Several historians have stated that Yamashita's gold existed", cited to no less than six sources, is rejected as a "novel narrative".

He also persists in misrepresenting Johnson's article as being a negative review of another source, Gold Warriors by Sterling & Peggy Seagrave. In fact it is a generally favourable review.

His actions have been decried on this noticeboard over the last week or so by User:Flying_tiger, User:Orderinchaos, User:SatuSuro and User:Cla68, among others.

It would be against the rules for me to deal with User:JimBobUSA myself and this is why I ask that other admins get involved. I think a stern warning, with follow up action if necessary, from someone other than me may help. Thank you. Grant | Talk 01:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No satisfaction on the previous complaints, so here we go again, eh? Grant65 fails to mention that he is the only one who has warned me, for removing his false references. I will post below (again) from the only source used to support his reference (The Seagraves novel), by notable historian Chalmers Johnson, from the London Review of Books.

• The Seagraves are not fully reliable as historians, they have a tendency to overreach and exaggerate
• Are unreliable on Japan and do not read Japanese
• The book is full of errors
• One of the characters (Lord Ichivara) is an absurdity
• The Seagraves sense that they might have a credibility problem, and have take the unusual step of selling two CDs that support the book

Maybe I am over thinking this, but what part of the above makes a novel scholarly. Moreover, it makes for a grand novel, with bits and pieces of real history, fictional characters and buried treasure. Nevertheless, it falls way short of “proving” the Seagraves conspiracy theories are anything but storylines in a novel.

Here is the last complaint thread(s): Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive453#User:JimBobUSA_.5Brevived_due_to_non-completion.5D and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive455#Japanese_war_crimes.2FYamashita.27s_gold_.28redux.29

To balance out the complaint, I would like to copy/paste this editor posting to Grant65:

"You appear to be asserting ownership. I removed some material and adjusted some other material due to lack of independent evidence of significance. Please find references from outside of the walled garden of the Seagrave conspiracy theories. In particular, please show evidence of discussion of the supposed CIA link in independent reliable sources - discussion in major national and historical journals, for example. Right now you are supporting "several historians" being in support of this theory, but all that is evident to the disinterested observer (I have no history here and am not American) is an amusing conspiracy theory promoted by two people who happen to be historians. There is no evidence of proper historical rigour, and no evidence of peer-review through journal or textbook publications. This applies particularly to the 2002 court finding, where you draw directly on primary sources without the benefit of analysis in reliable secondary sources. Please see WP:ATT, WP:V, WP:RS, and note that this seems to be Grant65 versus all comers, which is never a good sign." Guy (Help!) 09:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The above can be found Jim (talk) 01:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

-I would like to add here a notice about the request for a third opinion made on the same topic by user:JimBobUSA on Prince Chichibu article ] Here is what the «third user» answered to user:JimBobUSA's request :

«I am here to offer a third opinion. I have looked at the "Yamashita's Gold" page and the "Seagrave" page. There I find In its review of Gold Warriors: America's Secret Recovery of Yamashita's Gold, which dealt with allegations that post World War II the CIA had misappropriated billions of dollars of Japanese war loot, BBC History Magazine noted that whilst "numerous gaps remain.... this is an important story, with far-reaching implications, that deserves to receive further attention". Now, BBC history magazine is certainly authoritative and notable enough to support "receiving further attention" here. And it seems quite wrong to call such a book a "novel". It also seems easy to find notable skeptical sources. Can someone explain why a balance cannot be reached, please? Without saying "because of the other person"! Redheylin (talk) 00:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC) OK I have emailed the cited author to ask for confirmation. Check the time and see how long it took. Better than bad faith? I think so. Redheylin (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

-And, here is user:JimBobUSA's usual leitmotiv when he doesn't like the answer provided:

Thanks for your time and effort. Regardless, a book review about a conspiracy theory is still just that…a book review about a conspiracy theory. The reviewer saying it is an interesting theory is not peer-review or corroborating sources for the conspiracy theory. Jim (talk) 08:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC) It looks the dispute will last forever...--Flying tiger (talk) 13:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And here is the reply from Redheylin's email:

"Thanks for your email. Yes I did review this book although it was quite some time ago and that sentence could well have been what I wrote. The book is obviously very controversial and some of its conclusions may perhaps be a little fanciful but it did bring up some interesting issues which would benefit from further investigation. I don't know of any peer reviews of the thesis and although I do have a good general knowledge of history I have not done a sufficient amount of research on this to attest to the validity of all the arguments the authors make."

Very controversial, a little fanciful and no peer reviews. Pretty much well what I have been saying all along. Jim (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I have posted the following at the Wiki Third Opinion page, since I feel there is a possibility of that page being abused or disrupted, and that the facts are liable be presented to a future volunteer in a partial and misleading manner.

Talk:Japanese war crimes#Removing poorly cited reference. Disagreement over the use of a single-source conspiracy theory 12:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC) I have looked at this question. I find that this dispute is being carried on at the page I have just tackled and cross-posting is occurring. There is also a current abitration discussion on the same topic. I think it was ill-advised to open the discussion on more than one front but do not wish to remove the request without answering it. I therefore draw these circumstances to the attention of the administrator of the present page. Please message me. Redheylin (talk) 23:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:Suspected_sock_puppets/Nrcprm2026_(2nd_nomination)

I understand that there is a backlog at WP:SSP, but it's been two weeks since this attack against me was posted: could someone please evaluate the evidence presented and take the appropriate action(s)? I beg you to end this Kafka-esqe nightmare. Dlabtot (talk) 01:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Full protection of a non-blocked user's talk page

This doesn't seem right to me. Should this page have been protected? --NE2 01:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not if they're still editing, imo. Did you ask the protecting admin about it? –xeno (talk) 01:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I referred him here, where he can participate in the discussion. --NE2 01:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I really don't understand why there is a long edit war on that user's talk over sock puppet tags there. If it really is an abusive sock, put the tags on the user page. Jonathunder (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm moving the tags to the user page, protecting that, and unprotecting the talk page. Any problems with that, you'll have to refer the matter to someone else as I'll be gone until next Monday at least. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoever is complaining here should explain better. The "bad" user is accused of being a sock of someone who retired last year. I don't know of any rule that has been broken. Retiring or right to vanish is ok in WP. It does not mean you are banished forever. Unless there is more to it, picking on the user is not right. Presumptive (talk) 05:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, the funny thing is that Rschen7754 admits to being a sock. See that person's user page. Presumptive (talk) 05:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

So do I admit to being a "sock"! It's the abuse of multiple accounts which is forbidden; having ones is discouraged without some sort of legitimate reason, but is not disallowed. I hope that helps. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 12:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I am one of those involved in the complaining and its not as simple as you made it out to be. See both Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Artisol2345 (2nd) and Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/75.47.x.x+talk. -- KelleyCook (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That's still no reason to fully protect the talk page of an editor who hasn't even been blocked. I hope Rschen will think twice before locking an editor out of their own talk page in the future. It's acceptable only in very select cases, and it was pretty clearly not a good idea here, whatever disruption the editor may or may not have been causing. -- Vary | Talk 16:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly hasn't been established that 75.47 is Artisol2345/AL2TB/Splat5572, and, as someone who's tried to clean up after them, I'm not convinced. --NE2 20:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way NE2, speaking of "cleaning up after us" I've boldly decided to add all the junctions you removed back into the exit lists if you haven't noticed already - (e.g. from Bayshore Freeway back to U.S. Route 101 in California). Splat5572 (talk) 21:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I see that you've already been reverted, not by me. --NE2 21:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not debate the inclusion of freeway exits here. Take that to your talk page, now that it is unprotected, or to the relevant article or project pages. Before this thread spins out of control, is there anything more to be resolved here? Jonathunder (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, since the user's talk page is now unprotected and some editors have started using it, and since this user is responding to messages, I will mark this thread resolved. If there is legitimate concern this user is an abusive sock (and not all socks are abusive, as noted above) there are places to report that. If there is just concern about freeway exits or other normal editing concerns, discuss them in the appropriate places. Jonathunder (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --NE2 22:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up: Splat5572 has filed an arbitration request. It's probably not going to go anywhere, but he says he is AL2TB but not Artisol2345. As the only one currently editing is Splat5572, and particularly Artisol2345 hasn't edited for almost a year, is it really appropriate for his user page to be protected with a sockpuppet template? --NE2 02:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit war on History of Indiana

There is an edit war beginning on History of Indiana. The issue is over the use of AD\BC versus CE\BCE. An IP and a user account, who I assume to be the same person, are continually changing to AD\BC. (It appears this is the only type of edits this user\ip makes) The first time I noticed, I reverted it simply because they did not change every date and it was easier to revert the few they changed rather than go through and fix the ones they missed. The editor returned reverted my revert, at which point another editor, user:Dougweller, entered and has continued to revert this IPs edits. I personally have absolutely no preference on which system of dating is used. Another user and myself agreed to use CE\BCE when we wrote the article to maintain uniformity, and for no other reason. I am still the primary editor on the article and I am getting it close to FA status and this is getting kind of distracting. I have tried talking with the IP\user but to no avail. If there is anyway the page could be protected or some sort of action taken to prevent this edit war from continuing it would be appreciated. Thank you Charles Edward 02:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Before any protection takes place, we need a policy ruling, on which version is preferred under wikipedia guidelines, if any. Baseball Bugs 02:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

According to the WP:MOS#Chronological items, both styles are acceptable. I am unaware of anything more than that in policy regarding it. Charles Edward 02:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think protection nor blocking is warranted at the present time, it hasn't really reached "war" stage yet. Still disputy. –xeno (talk) 02:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have no intention of continuing to revert the edits. But I am concerned the other editors involved do not share my position. Charles Edward 02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The MOS also says that editors should avoid changing articles from one format to the other without a good reason. I'll leave a note to this effect on the IP's talk page. J.delanoy_adds 02:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, so if it was written as one or the other, it should stay that way. (It was written as CE\BCE originally: ). The "reason" given in the edit summary was a purely subjective comment, so it's irrelevant. Baseball Bugs 02:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Assuming these are the same editor, he has made changes five times, , , , , . Charles Edward 02:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Even reverting back, it would be inconsistent. And the complaint is that Indiana itself uses BC/AD and should be consistent. There is merit to that complaint. Baseball Bugs 02:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please note that Indiana article wsa using CE\BCE before teh same user\ip also changed it to AD\BC. Charles Edward 11:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Then it should be changed back also, both for consistency and for the same principle of leaving it as it was. When was it changed, and by who? It wasn't the same IP, since he only edited once. Baseball Bugs 13:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It was User:Cool10191 who muddied the waters about a month ago by replacing Indiana's BCE/CE references with a summary that stated BC. Come to think of it... THAT'S YOU. What are you doing? Baseball Bugs 13:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Before I made those changes it was at that time using AD\BC - and i said previously, as I understand it so long as uniformity is maintained within an article then the style used does not matter. Because BC\AD was already in use on Indiana at the time of my edits I just used the same method. The CE\BCE had already been removed long before I edited. Charles Edward 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You're contradicting your earlier statement. If it was originally BCE/CE, then that should have been restored. The change in the Indiana article to AD by 98.226.137.57 came on April 7 it was switched back to CE on April 8 and then that IP did it again on April 13 and apparently it stuck. Later, the move to the spinoff article occurred, and that's when things started to get messy. This speaks more to a screwed-up policy (or lack thereof) than anything else. If there was a better rule than "whoever starts it gets to own it", you wouldn't have this problem. Baseball Bugs 15:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And by the way, BC/AD is easier to type than BCE/CE. Baseball Bugs 15:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There are only around five instances of the use of BCE/CE or BC/AD, so to argue over this potentially explosive issue in this particular article seems petty to me. Is there a way to rewrite the two paragraphs such that they do not use BCE/CE or BC/AD at all? —Kurykh 02:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

BC/AD is very traditional. My impression is the BC/AD is used more often in Indiana thna BCE/CE so this is preferred. It's the WP way to use the July 29, 2008 date style in U.S. articles because that's the way Americans do it instead of 29 July 2008. However, in British articles the 29 July way is probably preferred. Presumptive (talk) 03:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh, wrong. :This is something I've dealt with a lot. The practice is called date warring. It used to be a huge problem on Misplaced Pages. It's one of the reasons the folks at Conservapedia decided to launch their project. They couldn't convince others at the project to recognize that they were in possession of the TRUTH™, so away they went. It's particularly bad when someone tears through Misplaced Pages changing every instance of BCE/CE to BC/AD they can find to their preferred style. The relevant guideline can be found at WP:SEASON. It basically says this: unless you have a substantive reason for the change, leave the article the way you found it. Doing otherwise, especially edit warring over it (which certainly looks like it's happening), is disruptive and users doing so should be blocked. To be completely clear, efforts to preserve the pre-date war status quo are approved. Efforts to disrupt an article with a stable era style should be blocked. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The only "substantive reason" that stands out is what one of the red-links said, that the Indiana article uses BC/AD, so they should be consistent with each other. That's reasonable. The IP address' complaints, though, are emotion-driven and are irrelevant. However, I think you would find that most Indianans would likely say BC/AD rather than BCE/CE. I mostly hear the latter from non-Christians, and the U.S. is still largely Christian, hence BC/AD is what's largely used. Baseball Bugs 03:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, the guideline was designed to stop a major edit war that was disrupting a broad range of articles on Misplaced Pages, and keep it stopped. A cease fire was declared. The terms of the cease fire were that violations should be reverted on sight and blocks given out as appropriate. There are links that document this somewhere if you've got a few hours to throw away. One of those IPs has done nothing but go through various articles changing era styles. The other has edited that page only. You have no idea what it's like to have a page like Judaism on your watchlist, see that the era styles have been altered, click on the editor's history and see hundreds of similarly disruptive edits by someone on a holy crusade and nothing else. My greatest success in dealing with this has been to aggressively revert and warn violators and seek blocks where necessary (I don't think it is here, yet since the editor seems to be hopping IPs.) If this individual holds true to form, he's quite likely testing the waters to see how much he can get by with. Letting this go would just be a green light to do more of the same across the whole project. BTW, he did it again and I reverted. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 04:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• General comment: SJA is right on this point, whatever convention was used first should stay. I haven't seen anybody link this yet (Link to BCE debate of '05) but past efforts to implement one system over the other have not been fruitful. R. Baley (talk) 04:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with "whatever convention was used first should stay" sounds like ownership, which is prohibited under WP:OWN. Do not mistake this comment for support for the AD/BC people. Someone who changes all CE/BCE to AD/BC does not have my support. However, someone who changes it to appropriate articles does. I used to live near Indiana. CE/BCE was never used. AD/BC was much more common. Actually, just BC. Nobody says 2008 A.D. There are some places that BCE/CE should be preferred. Warning: my comments are not the same or in support of the AD/BC nor those for what appears to me to be ownership. Presumptive (talk) 05:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If he wants it changed, he can seek consensus the normal way. Now I would say what I'm afraid of now, but that might be dumb. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think this has gone on long enough. We're just turning the crank on years-old policy arguments. Since there's not a shadow of a call for admin action, I'm going to WP:BEBOLD and close this as no admin action needed. I hope that's not against the rules since, as I've said before, I am not an admin. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The comment above, about "ownership" is a good point. The article cannot be a slave to the whim of whoever started the article. As with whether to spell it "color" or "colour", it depends on the context. Indianans spell it "color", and they would be most likely to use "BC" so that's probably how it should read in the article. Articles about Judaism should say BCE/CE, because BC/AD is strictly Christian stuff. The most recent edit, by an IP address making a snide remark, is the only edit by that IP address, so I don't know where the "hundreds" is coming from. But at the very least, the article needs to be consistent, which it isn't at present. Baseball Bugs 05:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Last comment just to clarify. When I said hundreds, I was referring to other experiences I've had with date warriors in the past. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I see. Well, I made changes to at least fix the inconsistencies. I also went with BC/AD, as that seems more appropriate to Indiana. If someone wants to switch it back to BCE/CE, at least now they've got a consistent base. And I also don't see any point in mentioning AD or CE any more than necessary. As someone noted, a year is typically understood to be AD or CE unless otherwise indicated. Baseball Bugs 05:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I am definitely with SJA. We can't let someone change the articles originally dating system because of personal preference. The latest IP attempt says "The Gregorian calendar/dating system has been the worldwide standard for almost 500 years. Any other changes are a direct assault on that precept.)" It would be a bad move to let this sort of attempt succeed. I asked for semi-protection before I saw this discussion. If we let the original format be changed simply because Indianans (and I know a lot of them personally as I have family there and visit several times a year) use AD, then a huge number of articles are up for grabs on the same basis. It isn't the same as a spelling issue. Doug Weller (talk) 05:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

We can't let the original author "own" it, either. But if you change it back, be consistent. The version that was reverted to was still inconsistent within itself. I think I caught them all. Baseball Bugs 05:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

We do have a precedent of going along which what the first major author does, like English varieties (which in some cases is imposed as arbitrarily as date conventions). —Kurykh 05:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This is NOT resolved. SJA, for some unknown reason, is now risking an edit war by pushing a version with both BC and BCE in it. What's the point of that??? Baseball Bugs 05:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. And Bugs is doing the same by reverting my edits. I have now edited the article so that all dates are in BCE/CE style, the stable version that was disrupted by the two IP's. That's my third revert, which I'm sure Bugs knew he was inviting with his second one. Someone else will have to watch the article for now. I guess this is what editors get for coming here seeking help with disruption: more disruption. I'm sure Bugs understands that this noticeboard exists so that editors can notify administrators of situations where their tools are needed, not to reopen old debates on long settled editing policies and guidelines. Since there's no admin action asked for or needed here, will someone please close and archive this thread? I'm going to bed. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I just want a consistent version. You've switched back to BCE/CE, and also fixed that inconsistency, so we're good there. However, you've got some years linked and some not. What's the deal with that? Baseball Bugs 06:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I replied on the article's talk page. Far too many years get links, years should only be linked where it is relevant to context. So some might be linked, others not. Doug Weller (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how linking 300 CE is any more relevant than linking 8000 BCE, since they are both round-number estimates. Baseball Bugs 13:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

MOS guidelines aside, changing it back to the original version seems just as silly as changing it in the first place. All that matters is consistency; beyond that, the particular format generally doesn't matter, right? So if someone goes along and changes it to the other format for no reason, then as long as it's consistent, why escalate the situation by changing it back? He didn't actually hurting anything, and changing it back just seems to cause more trouble then it's actually worth. Leave it be. Perhaps eventually, someone will come along and change it back to the original version on a lark, without being aware of the history. That's fine, too. And then someone will change it back again, and back and forth. We'll all be better served if, instead of trying to keep it on the "original version," we just ignore it and let it be whatever it happens to be at the moment, so long as it's consistent. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 14:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Just ignore it and let it be whatever it happens to be at the moment, so long as it's consistent. ← I have agree with Kurt on this, and with Baseball Bugs I think. Linking to the year articles will help make the meaning clearer for any readers unfamiliar with a particular "style", so in a sense, the links are relevant to the context. — CharlotteWebb 15:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If we have to use links to round number years to explain what BCE/CE are, maybe we shouldn't be using them. Everyone who speaks English natively and can read knows what BC/AD are. Baseball Bugs 16:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

User:emilyzilch

I have been having trouble with this user for a while, where she (or he) kept removing references from such scholars as John Esposito and calling them unscholarly and unreliable. Her edits and POV-pushing have caused much trouble in some articles. I have been more than polite with her despite her incivility. The tone with which she writes is very provoking, and I have restrained myself while replying to her. She has just accused me of harassing her and following her edits when I removed controversial depictions from 13 articles, two of which she previously restored. I didn't notice his/her edits to the article and after I replied to one of her many uncivil messages telling her how I didn't know she edited the article, she dishonestly complained to User:FayssalF and left messages on other users' talkpages calling me a 12-headed sockpuppeteer. The next time this user addresses with this tone, I will answer him/her with the same incivility and impoliteness. En Ne talk 03:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You're both guilty of some incivility, and I suggest you both stop it. Currently and thankfully, however, neither of you have gotten far enough to require sanctions, so please just stop it. I can see quite clearly that you two don't like each other, so I highly suggest staying away from each other as much as possible. And take the content disputes elsewhere. If nothing else works, try some dispute resolution. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 04:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I admit to having lost my temper because of constant provocation. You have also admitted to "chasing" my edits to "correct" me. This makes a girl cranky after a while.

However, please note that I removed myself from reverts involving User:GreenEcho/User:Enforcing Neutrality and instead referred the matter to other users. And E.N., you were just banned for having 12 sock-puppet accounts (cf the very bottom of the page Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/Klaksonn if you have forgotten so quickly). Naahid بنت الغلان 06:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In defense of User:emilyzilch, E.N. not only frustratingly has been deleting important content (depictions from religious figures) from Misplaced Pages, but content that has been agreed upon before and cannot be deleted for censorship on Misplaced Pages anyway. I took am too somewhat becoming uncivil. Please see Talk:Twelve Imams. --Enzuru 07:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If you guys want I keep a plate of {{cookie}}s in the back, I could go get it out. Should help, right? lifebaka (talk - contribs) 11:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I certainly enjoy a sweet snack full of love, so feel free... :-) Naahid بنت الغلان 16:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Is User:Enforcing Neutrality another account of User:Klaksonn? If that is the case, and I can see how it could be given the same sort of incivility and disruption on similar articles, then further action would be required. ITAQALLAH 22:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would accept your cookie, however, I am a vegetarian. --Enzuru 23:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Semi'd for 72 hours. If they don't get the message, a rangeblock may be required --Rodhullandemu 15:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – Everyone agrees that the block is good

Resolved

Resolved – Not an AN/I issue

Resolved – reverted attack, semi-protected page for remainder of block Toddst1 (talk) 23:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – no issue identified Toddst1 (talk) 02:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Gordon- are you referring to him changing the term English to British? Might be a little less specific, but I don't see the need for administrator intervention, here. Have you tried asking him- nicely, mind you- to stop? L'Aquatique 02:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

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