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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Large amount of Rangeblocks by Raul654

I have notified Raul654 (talk · contribs) and two other checkusers about this thread. I didn't contact him first because frankly I didn't think it would do much good, as I've expressed concerns about blocking patterns by Raul.

Raul has been blocking a simply ghastly amount of IPs in order to try to snuff out blocked Scibaby (talk · contribs). I've already expressed concern before that Raul is misusing his administrator tools with people he has a content dispute with (the thread was duly ignored: please note this does not include Scibaby, a sockpuppeteer). However, this blocking is simply above the pale; I don't have a checkuser tool, but I do see the several requests for unblock-auto affected by this every day, and I do have an IP range contribution tool which shows other editors on most of these ranges.

Range blocks include: /16:

1. 72.254.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
2. 207.67.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
3. 72.62.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
4. 68.27.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
5. 72.61.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
6. 198.172.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
7. 128.241.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
8. 72.58.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
9. 70.6.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB after same block overturned by another checkuser
10. 205.212.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
11. 99.204.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
12. 99.203.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
13. 99.200.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
14. 66.215.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by Raul.
15. 68.26.0.0/16 - 1 year AO ACB
16. 207.195.128.0/17 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
17. 66.215.64.0/18 - 1 year, AO ACB, ACB overturned.
18. 207.195.224.0/19 - 1 year ACB
19. 209.59.48.0/20 - 1 year AO ACB, overturned by another checkuser.
20. 99.204.37.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
21. 72.62.103.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
22. 68.27.123.0/24 - 1 year ACB
23. 205.212.78.0/24 - 1 year ACB
24. 128.241.109.0/24 - 1 year ACB
25. 71.196.216.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
26. 209.59.44.0/24 - 1 year ACB
27. 64.215.225.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
28. 207.67.151.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
29. 209.59.56.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
30. 207.195.244.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
31. 130.94.134.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB
32. 128.241.107.0/24 - 1 year AO ACB

This is a lot of IP addresses, and it only includes the ones designed to get Scibaby (there are others that have been problems, such as 213.249.0.0/16 - 1 year, overturned by the Office).

I believe these IP ranges should be unblocked. WP:RBI works best when dealing with one banned editor, not hard blocking over a million IP addresses. The Evil Spartan (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• Concur This is quite a large block. I like to hear from Raul, but absent any comments, I think these should be removed. This is something not even IP block exemption can scale to relieve, at least that was not the intent of the policy when I proposed it. Yeah, these blocks need looked at. As an aside, Raul does some good work on the project. NonvocalScream (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• Addendum to above: All this for one sockpuppet? NonvocalScream (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
• Too much collateral damage, methinks. –xeno (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
  • This is an impressive ammount of ranges, how come this was done for Scibaby AKA Obedium, when it hasn't been done for the puppeters with 200+ registered accounts and countless IP addresses? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Curious, what was the original block reason? –xeno (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have brought this kind of thing up before (as can be seen from Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive399#Improper_block). From what I can tell, User:Obedium - sockmaster- was blocked because Raul determined he was POV pushing on a global warming article and blocked him (the only people Raul ever blocks are people who POV push against global warming and for intelligent design). The Evil Spartan (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems the answer to my question is: "Scibaby was community banned for using massive numbers of sockpuppets to push POV." –xeno (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently I missed that in the block log. But I thought this was obvious given the nature of the case :). The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It was a quote from that thread you linked me to. –xeno (talk) 23:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul tends to prefer a ridiculous "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" approach, and apparently is intolerant of any criticism of it. Just a heads-up; I've had a run-in with him in the past over a similar issue. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 22:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not the first time I ran into Raul's enthusiastic range blocking; and I see their effects at regular interval on unblock-l— there is such a thing as unacceptable collateral damage, and I think this has crossed that line. I would hope Raul would acknowledge the fact that he may have been a little overzealous and that he might want to ease up on the /16 blocks a bit. — Coren  22:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

He won't, although he should. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Solutions

For this particular instance, is there a consensus, or can we discuss unblocking these specific ranges? NonvocalScream (talk) 23:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

We need to wait to hear from Raul what the reason for the blocks are. Some time ago when he detected increased scibaby activity he protected all the Global warming related articles. So, perhaps something similar is going on and he has tried a different tactic.

This is necessary to prevent the editors at Global Warming page from wasting their time reverting an Armada of scibaby socks. When that happens their editing pattern betray them and they are banned without doing a checkuser per WP:DUCK, and WP:Waste of Time as happened to User:Shenstar :) Count Iblis (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

My concern is that we could be turning away potentially valuable contributors with these rangeblocks, as evidenced by the numerous unblock-auto requests that come through. It seems we're making a trade-off of user time spent protecting a small set of articles and potentially losing valuable contributions to a larger set. –xeno (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

While some banned users are real pests and require drastic action to keep them off of the project, I wonder if these blocks are the best way. In my experience, banned users who have access to many IPs usually stop using an IP after it's been blocked, even if only for a short time. Unless he keeps returning to the same ranges perhaps shorter blocks would serve the same purpose while signifciantly reducing the collateral damage. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

A wonderful solution would be to desysop Raul. Unlike Bedford, Raul actually did something wrong--and so the community (and only the community) should endorse desysopping him. He's caused way too many problems. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense, he is only causing problems for the global warming denial propagandists. Anyway, this is the previous case and my proposed solution, which admittedly is not so easy to implement. Count Iblis (talk) 00:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

And the unfortunate souls who happen to use ISPs that are allocated IP addresses in that same range and who would like to contribute. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Can't they just ask for the block to be overturned? In these cases one could allow them to create an acount and then notify Raul about that created account so that the new editor can be monitored to see if it is not Scibaby slipping through the net. Count Iblis (talk) 00:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a lot of hoops to make a potential good faith contributor jump through. I would gather a good number of them say "sod it" and are lost forever. That proposed solution sounds like it could benefit from the stable revision enhancement. –xeno (talk) 00:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul's Response?

Has anyone been able to contact him? Has he made edits since being notified, is he ignoring this? Email? Does anyone know his usual log on time? I think there shouldn't be any mass revet action taken until we hear from him. Unless he's ignoring this, than I say some further discussion is warranted immediately. Beam 01:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

He most certainly has edited since; his last was just over an hour ago. I was looking at this earlier. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 01:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Raul doesn't usually edit wikipedia on Sunday. Count Iblis (talk) 01:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Tile join blocks

Just a note that Raul has also blocked large ranges of UK dynamic IPs when it would be simpler to just protect the articles that this one attacks. There are swathes of the most popular IPs blocked for 1 year, including BT, Tiscali and Sky. The thing is that even these rangeblocks are completely pointless, because short of blocking the entire ISP (tens of millions of addresses in some of these cases), one can just reboot the router and end up with a completely different IP anyway. I am on BT and my IP bounces between absolutely dozens of /16 blocks every time I switch off my PC and router. Examples;

• 81.153.64.0/18 (BT)
• 79.76.0.0/17 (Tiscali)
• 90.200.0.0/16 (Sky)

Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Half-cocked

Let's not go off half-cocked here. I just handled an unblock request from 207.195.224.0/19. There were only about 8 active IPs on that range, so I took a closer look. That range is owned by a hosting company. Hosting companies frequently host misconfigured web servers that act as open proxies and many hosting companies don't give a flying fig about the security position of their clients. Every IP on that range that has recent edits is an anonymous proxy, so I've reblocked the range with a different reason. Anyone who unblocks Raul's blocks without a damn thorough check and who thereby enables vandalism or socking is going to get a personal trout slap from me. Thatcher 01:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul's reply

First, I'd like to start this out by noting that The Evil Spartan has a history of making false and/or misleading statements about my actions, based on either ignorance or a distorted understanding of them. He has apparently chosen to continue this trend here. Above, he says that Obedium was the sockpuppet master, and that I blocked him because I disagreed with him. This is false on several counts - Scibaby was the sockmaster - he was the first one discovered, based on a checkuser request , and was blocked by William M. Connelley. I had nothing to do with that particular block. Months later, I did block Obedium for vandalism, and a few days thereafter (following some checkuser queries) I changed the block reason to include being a scibaby sockpuppet. All of this is available in the Scibaby and Obedium block logs - had Evil Spartan bothered to check them. Apparently these thing are "obvious" to him, the actual facts of the case not withstanding. It's not the first time he's leveled that particular false claim either.

Now, about the range blocks -- The Spartan suggests that we Revert-Block-Ignore Scibaby's misbehavior. There are several problems with this approach - first, that it demonstrably doesn't work. He simply creates new accounts and comes back. It's been almost a year since he was first caught and blocked, but several hundred socks later, he shows no signs of stopping. The only method that has proven even half effective is to prevent him from registering new accounts. Second, constantly dealing with Scibaby's nonsense burns out the people who actually have to clean up the damage (Raymond Arrit quit over it). I'm sure it's easy for Evil Spartan to suggest that people RBI, given that he hasn't actually done a scintilla of work dealing with Scibaby. Those who do edit these articles, however, are quite clear in their desire to keep them Scibaby free. He wastes a great deal of time and effort from other contributors that could be better spent writing articles. Third, the ranges do not affect anyone with an account. People who do not have accounts can contact unblock-en-l and ask for one. Fourth, the ranges above were not blocked willy-nilly. I avoid blocking highly active ranges - if a /16 is active, I block the /24. Thatcher has already noted this elsewhere in this thread.

To reply to Will Beback - I started instituting year-long range blocks in place in or around February. (After shorter ones failed to stop Scibaby) He still hasn't stopped. Therefore, if after 6 months of consistent range blocks he's still coming back, it stands to reason that shorter blocks will not stop him either.

And lastly - I'm not even going to get into how ludicrous Kurt's comments are. Anyone who's seen his participation elsewhere on Misplaced Pages should have a pretty good idea of the soundness of his judgment. But to rebut one thing he said, he claimed (falsely) that I edited an hour before he did - several hours after I got Spartan's notice on my talk page. Apparently Kurt has issues reading dates and times. My last edit prior to this one was a full 20 hours before I got The Spartan's note on my talk page, not (as Kurt said) an hour before his edit at 01:32, 28 July 2008. Raul654 (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• There are several hardblocks, could they be tweaked to anon-only? –xeno (talk) 02:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Use of carefully applied, anon-only range blocks to help control this level of disruption is fully justified. Volunteer burn-out is a serious issue when dealing with serial sockpuppeteers, and it's dismaying to see those who aren't actually dealing with the sockpuppeter giving back-seat advice on what would actually work to those who are dealing with it. Jayjg 02:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. If the options are spend all our time cleaning up after jerks, or just quitting and doing better things with our time, because we can't take serious measures to stop said jerks, I think it's obvious what most people will be doing. ThuranX (talk) 02:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Based on Rauls experience, and vested nature into the project, I'm inclined to give Raul the benefit here. The rationale sure makes sense. I apologize Raul. Continue the work you do. NonvocalScream (talk) 03:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think that the fact that people/IPs can request to be unblocked is enough to determine that this did not belong on AN/I, as this is a topic that does not deserve to have anyone waste their time on, let alone should Raul, with his constant dedication and experience here, be questioned in such a strange way. Can't this be closed and killed already? Ottava Rima (talk) 03:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Have the hardblocks been tweaked yet? –xeno (talk) 03:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless someone is requesting unblock for any of those IPs to create an account, why would it matter? Misplaced Pages acts preventively, and so far this has been effectively preventive. Your concern seems unwarranted and would not stop the socks from being created. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

People are requesting unblocks from those IP ranges. Tweaking the blocks to anon-only would stop us having to create a new account and hand it IP block exempt at the same time. –xeno (talk) 11:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

"People are requesting unblocks from those IP ranges. " Then that shows that they are perfectly capable of doing so, and the system works. Therefore, you have no argument and your complaint is moot. Please strike accordingly. Thanks. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

So we should hand a brand new account an IP block exempt flag? Would be much safer to soften the block. –xeno (talk) 23:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I am being a little confusing - There is a person making sock puppets. He relies on constantly shifting ips and making new accounts on a standard basis, which allows him to use the socks later. The only way to stop this is to stop the ability to create new accounts. It is not IP postings that are a danger, but sock puppet accounts. By having the people have to physical request an unblock to make an account, or permission to make an account, it prevents this automatic account creation to work, or slows down the process. Soft blocking wouldn't achieve this desired affect. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and perhaps so am I, because I don't think you understand what I'm driving at. A few of those rangeblocks aren't set to "anon only". Thus even if we created an account for them, they wouldn't be able to edit (unless given the IP block exempt flag, something that isn't handed out without a good reason). Now if there is 1) a good reason for those ranges to be hard blocked or 2) an understanding that giving out an IP block exempt flag to edit through these hard blocks, then I guess there's no issue with them being hardblocks. if not, they need to be softened to "anon only". (keep the ACB). –xeno (talk) 00:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Yes, and perhaps so am I, because I don't think you understand what I'm driving at. A few of those rangeblocks aren't set to "anon only"." Actually, I addressed that above. We are trying to stop socks. Some of them are already created. To slow him down, he would need to request to unblock each. To make new socks, he would need to request to be unblocked. Chances are, he could be caught before he is unblocked. Understand how this is the only way now? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

So why are only a handful hardblocked? And, should I start handing out IP block exempt flags to brand new accounts that request it from those hard blocked ranges? P.S. I'd prefer a reply from Raul, as perhaps they are hard blocked for a good reason ( I did notice one of them mentioned it was a whole range of misconfigured web servers that acted as open proxies - is this the case for all of them?) –xeno (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"Ok, so should I start handing out IP block exempt flags to brand new accounts that request it from those hard blocked ranges? " Most certainly not. They should be forced to explain some of who they are or other such things to make sure that its not a copy and paste job. Otherwise, it would be just as flimsy as letting him have free access to create. If they are current names, their background needs to be checked to see if there is overlap and a history that connects them to the puppet master. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Unblock-auto request comes from hard blocked range. I offer to create them an account, providing my standard boilerplate text which can be seen at User:Xenocidic/misc in the collapsed frequently used wikitext (I stole it from another admin). email comes from someguy at somewebmailhost dot com. "create me an account please". so I create them an account, and hand them IP block exempt? that doesn't seem like a best practice to me. neither does forcing someone to explain some of who they are (what ever happened to anonymity?), just because they happen to be in one of these ranges. and again, I'd prefer a reply from Raul, for reasons mentioned above. –xeno (talk) 01:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I will let Raul answer for himself, and I will have this be my final say on the matter - This happens quite often and is standard procedure when people have their IP and account blocked, and that IP rotates to someone else. It is hard knowing if the new person is actually a new person, or if the previous user is trying to game the system. Such extremes are taken because they are necessary. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

These aren't IP blocks, they're IP range blocks. Feel free to reply, I've decided just to ask him directly. –xeno (talk) 01:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I've seen the ranged blocked for socks. So, yeah. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Raul. — Coren  03:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

arbitrary section break after raul's reply

You guys are missing the point. It isn't that an ip couldn't request an unblock, it's that an actual new editor, the most valuable resource in all of the lands of the 'pedai we hold so dear, might not know what a template is, or even where the { symbol is on their keybaord. And when they realize they are actually blocked, they're already gone. Beam 04:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it's turning away new editors. As an editor whose ip (from one of the places I regularly edit from) falls into one of the blocked scibaby ranges, I can attest to the fact that I'm unaffected by the block once I log in. I'm not aware of what particular disruption scibaby has caused, but I do know that a disruptive sock farmer can cause frustration enough to inspire an exodus of existing volunteers, so it makes sense to take aggressive measures to halt the disruption in order to not lose valuable editors. There's enough information on the block message that comes up for a potential new editor who hasn't created an account yet to contact the blocking admin to ask for help to proceed--I know there was enough info for me to email Raul the first time I got hit with the scibaby block message just to let him know the block was hitting a regular editor's ip. I don't see any real negative effects caused by these blocks, especially if it's effective in stopping the disruption. --MPerel 05:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I support Raul's range blocks, and I want to note for the record that Raymond Arrit isn't the only editor who has been damaged by scibaby. For some strange reason that I have yet to figure out, an administrator named Madman decided to block me for 48 hours for helping to revert the damage caused by one of scibaby's accounts in September 2007. Madman claimed that I had violated the 3RR (no such violation occurred), was being disruptive (helping to revert SPA is not disruptive), and that I was edit warring (edit warring with a banned user?). NonvocalScream (then called "Navou") and Nishkid64 supported the block. It would be nice if administrators would actually do their homework before using the tools. Blocking the correct account is somewhat important here. Viriditas (talk) 06:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Your editing was disruptive, lets not get twisted over 2RR versus 3RR. :| NonvocalScream (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There was nothing disruptive about reverting a scibaby account in September 2007, and there continues to be nothing disruptive about reverting their edits now. It appears that you don't understand the word "disruptive" as it used on Misplaced Pages, and I suggest you actually read WP:DISRUPT. You supported a bad block, and sadly enough, you have not learned from your mistake. If you are at all interested in correcting your error, you are welcome to take a look at this page and scroll down to 02:31, 25 September 2007 and below. It's pretty clear who is being disruptive here, and it's not me. Amazingly, User:Obedium was allowed to continue to edit until 28 November 2007 when he should have been blocked in September. Instead, you chose to support blocking me. Viriditas (talk) 10:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that was a ridiculously inappropriate block, I remember that now. All the more reason to be aggressive blocking abusive SPAs. The collateral damage to a highly productive top 100 editor like Viriditas is case in point that an SPA permitted to run amok is far more damaging to existing editors than an ip block that might possibly discourage a potential new account in the SPA's ip range. --MPerel 14:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It makes no sense to me. It doesn't appear the blocks are working, since Raul deems it necessary to continue blocking vast numbers of IP addresses. If Scibaby continues indefinitely, does that mean ranges will continue to be blocked as a consequence, obstructing and potentially deterring other users from participation? Isn't there a certain point at which the collateral damage exceeds what is acceptable in attempting to prevent one person from making easily-reverted POV edits? Also, has semi-protection been tried? Wouldn't that be a much simpler solution? Everyking (talk) 07:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, Scibaby creates multiple accounts at staggered intervals, so any attempt at SP results in a sleeper account coming out of the sock drawer. He recently attempted to do this with his last account, and he did it in full view while registered from another account. This is what sets him apart from other accounts; take a look at some examples where he creates one account after another: , , , , , , , and many more. Take a look at this one where he uses one account to create two. It's easy to break the the day/edit threshold by creating a new account every x days and making y number of edits. The solution is to block on sight, and since the modus operandi is obvious (same type of edits, almost no use of talk pages), this should be easy. Viriditas (talk) 07:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Raul is right; I am in error as to whether he edited. I made that comment on the 27th, but I was thinking it was the 26th (which at the time was also the date of the last edits he had made). I often am one or two days off on the day of the month, so that was an error on my part.

That doesn't change the fact that his method is wholly unjustified. Saying "Unless you're the one dealing with it, don't criticize those who are" is hardly a compelling argument; I do not need to be an NFL quarterback to recognize when Joey Harrington is stinking it up, nor do I need to be a businessman to recognize when a company is going under. The "collateral damage" caused by Raul's actions is, in my view, an unacceptable tradeoff. It's as simple as that. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 14:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You have no idea what you are talking about. You do not know how much collateral damage these blocks are creating, nor do you have any idea how effective they are at preventing Scibaby from creating new accounts. You are simply taking wild guesses based on no evidence or understanding of the problem whatsoever (which is what the arbcom sanctioned Everyking for, now that I think about it). Raul654 (talk) 22:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmph. If people were prohibited from commenting at AN/I just because they didn't have a clue what they were talking about, you could hear a pin drop in this mofo. MastCell  05:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If Kurt Weber has an alternative solution, I would like to hear it. Viriditas (talk) 17:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Why present alternative solutions when it's so much easier to say "Let's give up and let Scibaby do what he wants." It doesn't require learning anything about the problem (something that neither Spartan nor Kurt thought necessary before commenting here). Better yet, one can blather on about it while not doing any useful work (Kurt's specialty). Raul654 (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That some people understand how to get around these blocks for good purposes does not mean that everybody does. The need to be accessible to newbies is at the very heart of WPs survival and growth. Raul, didn't you say above that even the current blocks weren't being effective? If so, why leave them up? DGG (talk) 22:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I said the blocks are half-effective - they don't prevent him entirely from editing Misplaced Pages, but they have had a demonstrable effect of slowing him down. He used to have dozens of outstanding sockpuppets at any given moment; now he has far fewer and they don't last nearly as long. Raul654 (talk) 23:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You, frankly, have absolutely no evidence to back up your assertion that I have no evidence behind my claims. Frankly, I submit that I'm vastly more informed about this issue than you are. And I find it ironic that you claim I do no "useful work", when I have done much more for Misplaced Pages than you ever have or ever will. "Not doing any useful work"...ha! Do you know anything about what I do here? Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion (you won't, since it's blatantly false, as a quick check will show). Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 22:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I still agree that we may be doing more damage than good with these rangeblocks. A few people manage to figure out how to throw up unblock templates, and I regrettably have to decline them, instead offering to create them an account, but rarely ever receive that email from them. Potential contributors, lost forever? There must be another way. –xeno (talk) 22:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

In this day and age, where can you post something on the internet (say a forum, on a blog, etc.) without at least giving your email address, or, more typically, by registering? I know of very few sites where you can still do this. What maters is that everyone who is really motivated to participate in editing won't find it too cumbersome to get an account here. Count Iblis (talk) 23:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• As I see it, we have two solutions: end the range blocks, and effectively make it impossible to prevent the socks from being created, which makes the blocking policy a complete laughing stock, or keep the blocks in place and potentially alienate new people while needing to burn more IPs in order to prevent this sock from acting in the way he is doing. Either way, the options suck. However, partisans are becoming far too much of that and forgetting that the blocks are here for the betterment of the encyclopedia. What doesn't help the encyclopedia is this bitter fighting. Can we please tone down the language? Everyone here wants to help the encyclopedia, and Scibaby is winning if admin are busy fighting amongst themselves. Thats exactly what he wants. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Since this problem is limited to the few global warming related pages, we could think about being selective in this respect. Is it possible to automatically block newly created accounts from certain IP ranges to contribute to a small list of articles? Count Iblis (talk) 23:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"Hagger"

I randomly chose to browse Misplaced Pages by different languages and noticed that Tigrinya (spoken by Eritreans and northern Ethiopians) was on the list. As I have an interest in languages that developed alongside with Coptic, Greek, and Ethiopic, I decided to check it out.

I saw that the main page said "HAGGER" at the top, and that sort of freaked me out, because User:Grawp, who has a sort of obsession with typing "hagger" and using socks, sent me an email filled with disturbing spam, and prompted me to email an alert User:B, the guy who blocked Grawp from emailing others. I was also surprised because main page in other languages can be edited anonymously.

...It turns out that it was a single revision made by an anonymous edit authored by 67.83.35.73—here's the diff page.

In fact, in that page, the screen is still covered by the edit, so better yet, here's the history.

What makes the whole thing even worse is that it took six hours for someone to spot it, and it just happened to by myself.

Now I really think there should be some sort of common protection for different languages—something that covers vulnerable pages like George W. Bush, the main page, and so forth.

...does anyone know how connected these languages are and how they are currently regulated??? Also, is there a way to intercede in such matters in different language versions? ~ Troy (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Other language Wikipedias are common targets for them as security and response time increases here. I believe there is, or was, a discussion regarding global sysops ongoing, which would speak to the issue of under-represented other-language projects. –xeno (talk) 22:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but why the heck can someone edit the main page? I've never heard of it. One other question: when you say that there was a discussion, what would be the conclusion on that? Regards, ~ Troy (talk) 22:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Poorly configured, I suppose. See: meta:Metapub/Archives/2008-07#Global_sysops_.28poll.29_.28closed.29 - The results of the poll are yet to be announced. –xeno (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a dead link to me. ~ Troy (talk) 22:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC) :/

Try again, or this direct link. –xeno (talk) 22:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

About editing the main page -- some wikis don't have full protection on the main page or don't have the full protection cascaded --> the az.wikipedia's main page got hit by Grawp a couple days ago too. And what happened to global rollback? I thought there was a discussion about that too? Calvin 1998  22:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You've read my mind. There should be global rollback.

You should know that some languages have no admins or only one admin, though, so it's quite complex.

There should still be semi-protection at least—I'm willing to pressure for some sort of solution if I have to. ~ Troy (talk) 22:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

And BTW, if there are few or no admins, rollback should still be granted to someone. ~ Troy (talk) 23:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Rollback is really just an easier way to simply load up an old version of the page, edit it, and click save... Just in case you didn't know. Also, cross-wiki vandalism can be reported here (meta:Vandalism reports)–xeno (talk) 23:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

• It appears that the Tigrinya Misplaced Pages has zero admins, and zero admins is too few for any Misplaced Pages. I note that it's no longer possible to get a realistic view of the ratio of users to admins, though, because of global login. Apparently I'm now considered an editor at the Tigrinya Misplaced Pages, because I clicked over there, even though I don't even have a Tigrinya font on my computer to display the language, much less could I read it even if I did. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually there was a proposal at Meta to implement a global sysop bit, which would have addressed cross project abuse of this type and worse. English language Wikipedians prevented it from passing, and when a modified version got proposed that would have exempted English language Misplaced Pages, English language Wikipedians shot that down too. And many if not most of these cross project abuses originate at English Misplaced Pages and migrate elsewhere. If it sounds like this project is collectively behaving illogically and making life harder for the other WMF projects' volunteers, well--imagine what the volunteers on those other projects think. Durova 01:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it failed? I didn't realize. Where is the decision? –xeno (talk) 01:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At Meta. Durova 02:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes , the same link I linked above I suppose. They left the "poll closed - results unannounced" banner up for whatever reason. –xeno (talk) 02:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I just saw the same vandalism at the Tigrinya main page and reverted again. I think the proposal Durova mentions should be reconsidered. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Durova is correct, there isn't much we can do about the smaller wikis since proposals keep getting shot down front, right, center, but a new proposal will be brought to meta soon just after a severe bug gets fixed...--Cometstyles 10:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW: I protected the main page and blocked the IP responsible there. If anyone happens to notice vandalism on a small wiki where there don't seem to be active sysops, bring it to either the Small Wiki Monitoring Team's attention via the #cvn-sw channel on Freenode, or to the stewards, via the #Stewards channel, for attention. Stewards have sysop powers globally now and can easily revert or block as needed. Global Rollback is in the process of being granted to some very hard working and capable SWMT members (such as Cometstyles, for instance, really a good chap) as well. ++Lar: t/c 13:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

A thought recently came to my mind that we should make the Cluebot recognize the word "hagger". Admiral Norton 17:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would help. He frequently uses H...A...G...G...E...R, where each "." is a different unicode character. (I think they're different. None displays on this PC, probably due to local security configurations, so I don't know what Unicode characters they are.) I don't think we can come up with a bot which will recognize everything that LOOKS like HAGGER. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

They don't display due to localization issues and encoding issues with your browser. He is using UTF-8 characters that your browser doesn't have the graphic character for, so it displays a small square instead. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's local security issues relating to localization issues; I'm forbidden from loading the font-sets which would display the characters. I don't know why fonts and character sets are considered security issues.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Because the glyphs (or letter shapes) that make up the fonts are often created in the PostScript language (or at least used to be), & some folks are concerned about that vector being used in security exploits. (Although I have never heard of that actually being done; anyway, that's the explanation I was given, years ago.) -- llywrch (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, it isn't Grawp, it's Hiwhispees (it says "This Page Was Brought To You By Hiwhispees). Grawp uses a different layout which states "This Page Was Brought To You By Grawp. Hiwhispees does not type in H....A...G...G...E...R. Hagger is a slang term coined by Grawp (Hagger's Brother). He types in "cut the economy" in LUCINDA SANS UNICODE. Thedevilsmode (talk) 01:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, admins may have access to #wikimedia-admin, which is useful for such cross-project cooperation.  — Mike.lifeguard |  02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ask an op to give you an +I  — Mike.lifeguard |  02:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the limitations of ClueBot (it seems to be mainly a word and phrase recognition tool), but it would be easy enough to write a simple bot that would check for these kind of complex patterned structures (regexp to the rescue...). I mean, they're signature pieces; there's only so much variation they can handle without losing their unique look, and the bot can probably be adjusted more easily than the vandal can rewrite his code. if I get a chance this week I'll play with it, assuming there's an interest. --Ludwigs2 06:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(P.s.) I just looked at ClueBot's source, and I think it would be easy to modify it to handle this. I'll leave a note over there and see what they think. --Ludwigs2 23:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Editor Wilhelmina Will's no holds barred DYK race -- I propose a temporary ban for her

User:Wilhelmina Will has resorted to personal attacks in edit summaries, for which she has been warned on her talk page, and to reverting substantive edits in articles in order to obtain the correct number of words for DYK.

Apparently she feels so secure in doing this that she is willing to admit that is her sole purpose for reverting. I posted before on AN/I about her plagiarizing articles, and talked to her about it, but she did not respond other than to warn me away from her and admit she didn't understand what she had copied.

This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace).

Based on this I have asked that the Mesodermochelys article be removed from candidates for DYK.

She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award. She plagiarizes but isn't bother about it. The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately.

Is this what Misplaced Pages should be featuring on its main page? I don't think so. I think the main page needs a break from Wilhelminia. --Blechnic (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Since the DYK criteria are much stricter than the criteria for inclusion, an editor whose entire purpose is to create articles for DYK and rack up "medals" wouldn't seem to be bad on face. I can't speak to the specific problems this editor is generating but the underlying act should not be suspect in any way. Protonk (talk) 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Willing to edit war, revert edits that increased accuracy and clarity in order to have the right number of words, and calling another editor "revolting" are fine by you if used for DYK, then? Ugh. --Blechnic (talk)

(ec) Oh please, Protonk, you seriously think that adding pointless verbiage to an article just to jack up its word count for DYK (which she admits doing - follow Blechnic's links) is serious, useful, appropriate editing? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't know anything about the specific actions the editor in question has done. I'm just contending the general premise of this statement "This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace)...She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award." Protonk (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

She certainly did edit war for the purpose of the number of words for DYK: "My reason is to keep the main body of this article above 1500 bytes. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

then the problem is the edit warring, not the motivation. the solution (DYK topic ban) is a unique and probably helpful one. I'm just defending the notion that an editor may edit to only contribute to DYK. If we had a (hypothetical) editor that did so without introducing factual innacuriacies, without edit warring and without plagarising, we would lavish them with praise. the underlying motive isn't the problem here, though it is probably key to the solution. Protonk (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps something like a topic ban? No further DYK submissions from Wilhelmina until the community decides to lift the ban? If that's all she's here for, she's not doing the encyclopedia any favors. (Disclaimer: I have not evaluated Blechnic's post on the merits, but if his factual claims are accurate - which I have no reason to doubt - some kind of a circuit breaker ought to be tripped) (Another disclaimer:I am not an admin) --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I suggest, no DYK submissions or credits for Wilhelmina. I'm more concerned now, after working on this latest article, about her accuracy. She clearly does not understand extinct organisms--what she is currently writing about. --Blechnic (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps the stated DYK criteria are stricter than the criteria for inclusion, but in practice, an editor can plagiarize an article from another source and have it included in DYK--then we have a big fat copyvio linked from the main page. Wilhelmina Will's behavior is sufficiently problematic that I think she (?) should be given a temporary time-out from DYK--there are credible concerns of plagiarism, and the personal attacks aren't helping. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a shame - there are oodles of straightforward stubs (especially in geography and botnay) just itching to be expanded out there without having to get mired in technical detail. I note Fritzpoll has offered to mentor, which may be constructive (?) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think any kind of ban is the answer. Wilhelmina, though a little unorthodox, is a quality contributor; we should not be persecuting her for adding new content. Further, I see little difference in the diffs you've presented, Blechnic; there is no need to go searching for a conflict merely because you dislike a user. I see no inherent problem with trying to get a lot of DYK medals; the end result is lots of high-quality articles for the project. GlassCobra 05:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't dislike or like her. Her contributions are not quality, most I've seen are copyvios or wrong. Her science is really bad. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There certainly was no reason to revert just to get the article up to the correct size. More can be added to the article, if that's the only DYK concern. The personal attacks while reverting to the ever-so-slightly longer version are problematic. Not to mention the factual accuracy of DYKs "extended" in this manner. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GlassCobra, follow Blechnic's links, look at her edit summaries and talk page comments. Wilhelmina clearly admits that she's making changes for the sole purpose of jacking up the article's word count just to fulfill her "dream of having made 5000 DYK articles". That is just not on. A DYK ban is the least disruptive way of dealing with this. She could still edit the rest of the encyclopedia to her heart's content, but her incentive to commit copyvio's and insert useless verbiage would be gone. And the ban could be lifted as soon as she sees the light about her conduct. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

After looking at the history of Mesodermochelys, I agree that there are problems with Wilhelmina Will's conduct. But can someone point me to a diff illustrating the copyvio/plagiarism issues that people are talking about above?  Sandstein  05:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That was another AN/I, not this one. She copied a few phrases for this that should be, in my opinion, in quotes, but the article has mostly been entirely rewritten at this stage. I'll see if I can find a link to the other AN/I.--Blechnic (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to at least most of the discussion. I think her latest response to this AN/I thread will pretty much say it all, along with her calling me a "revolting" editor in her edit summaries while reverting substantive edits to keep the number of words high enough for DYK. She didn't respond to the first AN/I, and her initial response to me expressing concern about her copyvios, as I noted above, was to warn me to never "cross paths with her again." --Blechnic (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's start a tally, then:

• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina at least until she tells us she understands and is willing to abide by copyvio rules and stop treating DYK medals as an end in themselves.--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Until editor gets her act together and accuracy is part of it. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Based not only on the attacks in the edit summaries, but even moreso the reversions to simply keep it at the right technical length (versus actually improving the article), I support a decent-length topic ban from DYK for WW. S. Dean Jameson 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Per Dean Jameson's reasons (personal attacks in edit summaries, accuracy issues, edit wars based on article length for DYK), I think I'd also support a temporary DYK ban for WW. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina until she clearly starts producing accurate quality articles and shows more civility. (I also think that DYK encourages this sort of thing, earlier this year I found and dealt with multiple issues of copyvio from an editor collecting DYKs). Doug Weller (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Mesodermochelys isn't the only palaeo article created by her that has been a problem. I've made to make major changes to Mystriosuchus and Corsochelys to make them in anyway accurate. In addition, many of the palaeo articles created by her lack any information altogether (see her sea turtle creations). She seems to be trying to increase the number of articles out of the article request process, which is commendable; however all her palaeo article either are lacking in information or have serious accuracy issues and some copyvios. Mark t young (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here, it seems to be you, Blechnic. Just stop it, okay? Sceptre 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, it seems that Wilhelmina Will may have been brought up on AN/I more than the twice I brought her up ("everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here" implies a larger number than two including this one). However, I did not bring her up these other times she was brought up here at AN/I. --Blechnic (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think Blechnic deserves great credit for persistence in refusing to let an unpleasant problem be swept under the carpet. JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with JohnCD.ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support --CrohnieGal 13:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support for the short term per Mark T. Young, taking his owrd (and others) on copyvios and inaccurate material. I wonder if the situation could be saved by close monitoring and am opne to the idea. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support both a DYK ban and a possible overall short term block. As someone who has a few DYKs under the belt, her actions to attempt to rack up more is not only insulting to other DYK editors, but shows a complete lack of full respect for the rules regarding a DYK. In the last AN/I thread, I was ready to give Wilhelmina the benefit of the doubt, but the continuing on going problems and her responses to these issues make me feel that something more needs to be done here. I was suprised the last thread did not result in a block as she seemed to be ignoring all comments and the offer of mentoring to help correct a major issue with the use of copyrighted material, posting of blatantly false information, and the use of herself as a source. -- ] (] · ]) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, both a DYK ban, for a couple of months, and a short block for civility violations. Editing Misplaced Pages should be about improving the encyclopedia, not collecting awards. When someone edits an article with an edit summary indicating that the goal of the edit is simply to increase the word count to the DYK minimum rather than to improve content, this clearly demonstrates problematic and unproductive attitude both to DYK and to Misplaced Pages in general. Also, the edit summaries in the first two diffs provided by Blechnic are really unacceptable. There is no excuse for deliberately insulting other editors and the fact that the sole purpuse of WW's edits, according to those edit summaries, was to insult Blechnic, makes it even worse. I would think that a short civility block for WW is warranted just for that. Nsk92 (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban as proposed, plus mentoring/adoption if anyone is willing - I seem to remember that someone offered, but I can no longer find that on her talk page. We need to find out whether this editor's undoubted energy and enthusiasm can be channelled towards helping to build an accurate encyclopedia, rather than accumulating number-of-articles-created points and DYK credits. (In view of the amount of trouble it seems to be causing, I wonder whether the whole DYK system is maybe more of a hindrance than a help to WP?) JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support; DYK are not an ends, and savaging articles to make them qualify, quality be damned, is not acceptable. — Coren  17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support civility block, not just topic ban. This bald-faced lie in regards to the personal attack diffs provided by Blechnic is an insult to the entire community. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK topic ban and civility block. Plagarism is unacceptable, as are personal attacks. -MBK₀₀₄ 17:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, per all above. –xeno (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• SupportDYK Topic Ban and Civility Block, and civility and plagarism probations. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support If Blechnic, in return, is warned over lack of AGF ("This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals") and told to stop making personal attacks ("The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately."). These actions are not beneficial to an encyclopedia, and instead harmful. These actions are escalating actions and result in further problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Those don't look like personal attacks to me, but straightforward reporting of the user's behavior. Corvus cornix_talk 21:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Corvus, you cannot have a more clearer situation of a personal attack than saying someone lacks the ability to read accurately. That is clearly an attack on their person. Remember, NPA states at the top: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This was a clear breach. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, to be fair OR, that is an oversimplification of what Blechnic said - assuming good faith, we can assume that Blechnic was not saying she couldn't read, but couldn't understand the technical details of scientific journals. Not an uncommon problem, even for researchers in the field! :) Fritzpoll (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • If I oversimplified "inability to read", then I apologize. However, the language seems to be inappropriate, and this could have been solved by a simple redaction to say there have been problems resulting from her edits that remove the scientific accuracy, instead of blaming her "ability" as the root cause. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • While there may be a case for warning Blechnic, I fail to see why the decision about Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on some warning to Blechnic. —SlamDiego_←T 21:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Because Misplaced Pages is about preventative, not punitive, and personal attacks cause discontent between users, which will spiral the problem further out of control. The response to incivility is not to be incivil. We need to state the facts of the case, not discuss the attributes of others, and be as objective as possible. Otherwise, problems escalate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not arguing against a warning for Blechnic. (I have not formed an opinion on that.) I'm asking for why the response to Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on warning Blechnic. If we simply couldn't communicate with Blechnic (and thus could not make a warning), should we let Wilhelmina Will continue? —SlamDiego_←T 22:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Ah. It just seems like the situation happens around those two interacting, so the solution would have to be based on their mutual interactions. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Oppose any sanctions against Blechnic. That Ottava Rima is agitating so loudly in Wilhelmina WIll's favor, to the point of now creating two separate disruptive off-topic threads is absurd, and I ask that she be warned by an admin, and any further distracting sub-threads be 'rewarded' with a block for disruption of an AN/I thread. It's clear that Ottava is willing to risk his/her reputation, such as it is, to save WW, which is not going to work. As such, the warning would not only be to keep this AN/I focused but to prevent OR from his/her own worst impulses. ThuranX (talk) 02:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thuranx, your comments show short sighteness when it comes to fixing the topic, and ignore the fact that I've dealt with mediation between users quite often, have an extensive background in the DYK topic area, and that I already recommended WW be prevented in the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK ban until she gives reason to believe that she will adhere to the spirit of DYK when submitting. That would mean no copyvios (taking Mark T Young's word, which I have found to be reliable in the past) and meeting the minimum DYK requirements legitimately, withiut playing games. I can understand the frustration of falling a few words short and thus rewording things to use a few extra characters and being reverted, but there should be a better way to extend an article that needs extention. Rlendog (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be getting off track with all the arguing. There is clear consensus for a preventative DYK ban. However, we need something constructive to assist her with editing articles based upon academic citations. Can I suggest that mentoring is a condition of her DYK ban being recended? Mark t young (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be absolutely necessary. I have already made an attempt to talk to her. Based on her response, we will find out if such a thing is possible on her end. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Note - this was posted and there appears to be two DYK regulars who suggest opposes to the above in some form or the other. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford, who raised an alternative to a ban that I agreed to support should WW follow up on it. I will always support anything short of a ban, particularly if the user facing the ban shows an inclination towards working for an alternative solution. That seems pretty straight-forward. However, Will has not shown any inclination to anything but continuing to created bad and wrong articles and edit according to her personal desires rather than accuracy.
  • Also DYK users have a link to this discussion and explicit notice of the nature of this discussion should they choose to come here and participate. It is not necessary for anyone to suggest their voices. Did you post a note at Bedford's talk page to let him know you were speaking here for him here at AN/I, thouhg? Thank you, also, Ottava Rima, for speaking for me, but I have clearly spoken for myself above. Please do not speak for me. --Blechnic (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
    • PS I did let User:Bedford know that you spoke for him here, as you have not notified him, according to your user talk contributions history. --Blechnic (talk) 16:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford" it sure seems like you were opposed in your excessive pursual of this and the extreme lengths you are taking: "I think it is a little excessive. I suggest possibly cooling down a bit. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)". So far, there have been quite a few people questioning your eagerness. Now, you definitely aren't helping your case by acting condescending. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggested that she could no longer self-nom until five of her articles were nominated by others,and later placed on the front page. ANI has proven unreliable, and instead of a mass lynching, it is best if those most knowledgeable about DYK practices meet out a reasonable and fair punishment that does not discourage creativity, but does encourage competent prose.--Bedford 16:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:OWN doesn't just apply to articles, you know -- or are you suggesting that "outsiders" are incapable of making judgments based on the available evidence? --Calton | Talk 00:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nominations are not limited to regulars in DYK, anyone can nominate. It was my suggestion, originally, that editors at DYK also discuss a solution, simply because editors at DYK and editors monitoring DYK are the DYK community. There is no door keeping anyone else out, though. The post is linked above, feel free to drop by and contribute to a solution if you like. --Blechnic (talk) 04:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Request review: protection of John Edwards

{{Resolved}} I've just protected John Edwards for 48 hours. In addition to a fairly pronounced edit war involving multiple parties, there was what I consider to be a significant WP:BLP issue which led me to protect a specific version. Hence I'm submitting the action here for review.

Background: the National Enquirer, a tabloid, recently alleged infidelity on Edwards' part, an allegation which he has denied. Thus far, a number of reputable media organizations are covering the brouhaha over these allegations, though they have taken care to avoid comment on the veracity of the allegations themselves, which appear to be confined only to the Enquirer. There has been a dispute/edit war at John Edwards over both whether the allegations should be included, and if so, how the material should be phrased.

I've left a lengthy rationale on the Edwards talk page for the 48-hour protection and reversion. The protection itself is justified by the edit-war, but the protection of a specific version is always controversial. To summarize: the essence of WP:BLP is that Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid; that we are not Wikinews and getting these issues right takes precedence over getting them in the article right now; that the mainstream sources covering this issue are themselves seemingly skeptical or iffy about the allegations; and that while this material may certainly warrant inclusion, the dispute over the material needs to take place on the talk page, not in the form of edit-warring in articlespace.

Potentially relevant WP:BLP/N thread here, though input was fairly limited.

I'm posting this for feedback and a sanity check from uninvolved editors and admins. Also, as a minor administrative issue: should this be logged as a special enforcement action under the provisions of WP:BLPBAN? I'm hesitant to be the "test case" there, but I believe this protection/reversion are in keeping with that decision. MastCell  17:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

On the least important point, I'd only log it under WP:BLPBAN if you are intentionally using that as the basis for your action. GRBerry 17:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd looked earlier at the talk page, in response to a thread above. Nothing relevant has been said since, yet the edit warring continued. The edit warring in and of itself merited protection, regardless of the BLP issue. It seems reasonable to have removed the paragraph also under WP:BLP. The final version before protection was arguably worse than the version being revert warred over. Hopefully in 48 hours there will be additional evidence relevant to determining the appropriate amount of coverage. I'd consider extending the protection to a week however, with a note on the talk page to use {{editprotected}} if an actual consensus version has emerged. GRBerry 17:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I was initially thinking of 3-5 days, but thought I'd err on the side of less protection. I agree about extending it if the same issues persist. I suspect that at the moment Reliable Sources(TM) have their fact-checkers and legal department working on the matter, and the appropriate level, tone, sourcing, etc should hopefully clarify itself shortly. MastCell  18:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

See also this recent addition to Story of My Life (novel) by 216.136.25.72. It has twice been re-added since its removal - once by 216.136.25.72, and again by 72.72.203.224. Voceditenore (talk) 18:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 1 week. MastCell  18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you mean fully protected? ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 19:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At Story of My Life (novel), the questionable material had been inserted solely by IP's, so I've only semiprotected it at this point. MastCell  19:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ack, sorry, I confused the two. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 20:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think protection was the right move based on the edit warring while discussion was taking place. As for inclusion, I think it is possible to include only what the sources say, that the NE reports A but that it remains unsubstantiated. Ramsquire 23:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• The protection is called for, but I think an admin needs to take the time to synthesize data on this scandal and edit the article, even while under the protection, to mention the scandal (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression admins can still edit protected pages). At this point, the scandal has been reported in Fox News (here), and dozens of national and international newspapers. The Fox News article contains sourcing independent of the National Enquirer. To allow the pre-scandal version of the page to stand in the midst of a growing media storm is to deny reality, and bring discredit upon Misplaced Pages. Regrettably, this protection is now making Misplaced Pages the subject of controversy. RayAYang (talk) 06:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, though it's strange without context. How's this at the end of John_Edwards#2008_Presidential_campaign? Edwards' chance of becoming Obama's running mate has likely been dashed by undenied July 2008 allegations published by the National Enquirer..--chaser - t 17:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Since when is a Democrat being a two-timer considered to be news? Now, a Mormon Senator caught messing around in the restroom - that's news. Baseball Bugs 17:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Admins cannot synthesize content information to resolve a dispute; an admin's opinion on a specific content dispute is no weightier than anyone else's, though admins may act to deal with edit-warring, WP:BLP issues, and other policy problems. While admins have the technical ability to edit protected pages, it would be a gross abuse to do so except in narrowly constrained circumstances (see the protection policy). This will have to be solved the good old-fashioned way - by discussion on the article talk pages.

Incidentally, I would strongly encouage outside input on the relevant talk page, since this is a thorny content issue without a clear "right" answer (though there are many, many wrong ones). Bottom lines: Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. There is no deadline; it's more important to get this right rather than to race to repeat unconfirmed rumors. Outside criticism should not be ignored, but being criticized doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong. Sometimes, depending on the source, it's a sign that you're doing something right. MastCell  17:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages welcomes outside input. That contrasts with the tabloids, which welcome inside output. Baseball Bugs 23:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand the need to contain a frantic edit war between the warring ideologues from both parties, but the section should be added as "alleged" event. It's been picked up by multiple legitimate news agencies with independent sources.

Comparing this to Senator Craig, or using it as an excuse to dismiss the alleged Edwards scandal by the admins is a joke. Senator Craig's events were performed in front of an undercover officer, who testified as to the events that took place, and Craig admitted to the allegations. Hence, it is NOT alleged. It is fact.

The Edwards situation has received enough mainstream media attention to warrant a section documenting "alleged" or as of yet unresolved events. If or when the events are proven/disproven, the section can be ammended to reflect those changes.

But unless there is an official moratorium on events before they can be added to wikipedia, selective censorship is counterproductive to the wiki community. There are undeniable facts that 1.) SOMETHING took place, 2.) Edwards was present, 3.) all of the witness reports and evidence (from sources outside of The Enquirer), point to the idea that it was an affair or rendezvous.

Either set a timetable for how long an event must sit in purgatory before being added as "alleged" and how many sources and news outlets have to have reported it, or make the changes.

Make rules and enforce them, or adopt a laissez faire attitude. You can't arbitrarily enforce edit and posting rules

Either deal in fact and theory, or only fact. But you can't selectively remove theory. And that applies to everything.69.81.18.5 (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.81.18.5 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 29 July 2008

FYI: redacted link that apparently everyone but me already knew about --Jaysweet (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you - we already have a handful of IP's and new accounts dedicated to spamming that piece on the article talk page. MastCell  18:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, haven't really been following it. I was just surprised to see Misplaced Pages mentioned as the second link when I gnewsed for "John Edwards". I have redacted the link, since apparently everyone but me already knew about it :D --Jaysweet (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus has formed on the article talk page on how to address this issue within the article, which I have updated accordingly. I think this thread can be marked as resolved.  Sandstein  07:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a BLP issue. Consensus is not the determining factor here. We have a single-sourced allegation from a questionable source. Not good. --jpgordon 14:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. This is a community issue, therefore consensus is always appropriate. Good! --Dragon695 (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. BLP, like NPOV, trumps any consensus arguments. BLP violations may be removed regardless of consensus. --jpgordon 22:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put the article back to semi-protection again, due to a 100% BLP violation or vandalism rate by IP editors or new accounts during the 10 hours it was fully unprotected. As I also reverted some of those edits today, I'm letting the community review my semi-protection. We haven't had any edit warring over this material by autoconfirmed editors in that period. GRBerry 21:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalking - Badagnani

Badagnani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has been stalking me all day, harassing me to the point of the shakes. I cannot do anything with out him:

• undoing my changes and edits;
• putting merge or delete tags on articles or templates I have created;
• contesting changes that I make;
• claiming names that I chose for new templates were "unencyclopedic" and moving them, in some cases breaking the edit bar functions or creating circular redirects.

This stems from the {{Herbs & spices}} template which I was working on for the past 7-10 days. I merged another template with it and he disagreed with the merge, so an admin locked the templates down and started a discussion here on weather we should revert the edits or keep them merged. After seven days, the discussion produced no consensus for keeping the templates separate. Once the protection was removed, I continued with the merge, and that is when he began the whole stalking thing. The other template, {{Herb and spice mixtures}}, had not been updated or reviewed in months and I set about removing it because it was no longer used, he kept removing the deletion tags. I also created several other templates, {{Commercial herbs & spices}}, {{Medicinal herbs & spices}} and {{marinades}}, to deal with issues that I and others had brought up over the past few months on the discussion page. Once these articles were created, he jumped all over them with the issues I have listed above. I am ready to create a last template about historical herbs and spices at {{historical herbs & spices}} but am afraid of what he will do once I create it.

He has had a consistent history of abuse and problematic behavior on numerous articles that he has worked on, the last time he did this was at the Tan Kai article which resulted in another block on him, his seventh. He also has a habit of using language that appears to make him appear as the victim or the straight & narrow editor correcting wrongs by wording his edit summaries with WP buzzwords such as consensus, discussion, reverting blanking etc., when in actuality he is the on violating these rules.

I have had to take two breaks today to get away from this guy and cannot take it any more. I am so upset, I can barely type. Could some one please do something, I cannot get anything productive done with him following me on every edit I make.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 23:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've notified the editor of this discussion for a start. Toddst1 (talk) 23:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are to the point of shakes, I would step away from the computer and come back after a day or two. Don't let Misplaced Pages affect your physical health. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I took a third break after writing this and am going for the forth, but I thank you for your concerns. Editing and writing usually relaxes me and gets my creative juices flowing. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 01:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I will chime in here as I have worked with both Jeremy and Badagnani on different articles. I have always found Jeremy to be a thoughtful and studious editor who works for the best of Misplaced Pages, he uses the Misplaced Pages boldness philosophy well as it helps Misplaced Pages get past a stale level of mediocrity in many of the edits he makes. It is this boldness that seems to bother Badagnani in both Jeremy's edits and in mine in the past and a look at Badagnani's revert history, it seems the same with others as he feels that he has ownership over certain realms of Misplaced Pages and when someone edits something without "his permission" he goes on a coy attack with utilizing those "catch phrases" which Jeremy mentioned such as "consensus" which is a term he uses to make him look like the good guy, but I have seen through it as he has tossed it at me a number of times. As I have had interaction with this user, I do not feel it appropriate for me to make any recommendations as an Admin. towards him as it would be a conflict of interest, but his actions have become extremely aggressive as one can see that he is following all of the edits which Jeremy is making. I myself have had to close my laptop for a day to calm myself down from interactions with him. He has been accused of "stalking" other editors and harassing other editors as well in the past. His interactions with myself and others on Korean cuisine and its talk page are a prime example of how this user interacts with many users on Misplaced Pages. Badagnani does make some good contributions to the project, sadly he is incapable of "playing well with others".--Chef Tanner (talk) 14:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Just adding my two cents here, I have an ambivalent feeling toward Badagnani due to his behaviors. His contributions and passion for Korean cuisine or other cuisine related articles are helpful to expand contents in general, and I appreciate that. On the other hand, his ownership attitude and inserting original research to articles reduce his positive aspects much. His stubbornness on what he believe right and think that articles should be in order by his own definition makes hard to work with editors here. The above "incident" began actually a content dispute between Jeremy and Badaganani. Therefore, it ought to be fully discussed between people before merging the existing templates, although I believe the merging is a good idea for handling articles pertaining to herbs and spices and for increasing better accessibility to both editors and readers. The cases of wiki-stalking should be noted to the user to prevent him from doing so. --Caspian blue (talk) 20:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like just to add my experience. I had many problems cooperation with Badagnani as well. This user refused to cooperate, started an edit war, didn't seem to care about Misplaced Pages policy etc. You can check my talk page for the way this user tried to handle as issue he/she thought he/she was right. The situation ended with a 72 hours block of this user. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I want to say that I agree with the others, Badagnani has made many useful contributions, and I have had positive interaction with him in the past. The problem that occurs is when he goes over the top and starts up his aggressive behaviors. Once he starts, he won't back down, and escalates until he ends up damaging himself and angering others. While I have had brushes with his negativity in the past, this is the first time I have encountered the full brunt of his wrath with his personal attack on me.

This behavior, when it comes to the fore, is the problem. It makes all of the good he has done worthless, his behavior is self destructive and disruptive. He needs a serious reprimand, or he will continue this behavior ad infinitum. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 22:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I can't really say too much about this so-called 'stalking', since I have not had an issue with Badagnani. To me, he's just another user who had (or still has) improper font rendering support for the Khmer script, which prompted my comment on his talk page (which was at the time, coïnciding with his block). However, judging from the rest of his talk page, he is capable of good contributions as well as bad. It is in my opinion however, that both Jeremy and Badagnani are inciting each other to keep edit warring. One because he agrees, the other because he disagrees with the proposals. The other problem is because neither of you wait for a third party to add his or her imput on the matter at hand, as Willscrlt had suggested, you should promote the discussion, not believe that your sole opinion or his/her sole opinion are the end-all result within 8 days. Usually, 2 weeks is a good time to wait after proposing a merge (unless no one disagrees). - Io Katai (talk) 23:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply I tried to have the discussion moved to the main Wikiproject Food and Drink talk page as I knew that there would be no solution reached on the Herbs and Spices taskforce talk page. The offer was declined by Badagnani. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 00:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Fredrick day

I've been taking flack for blocking User:Frederick day as a sock of indef blocked User:Fredrick day then reverting all his edits as a banned user. The thing is, is he banned? I said yes considering the length of time since his block, the fact he's created socks to evade that block and no admin has so forward as being willing to unblock. Others may disagree though so I'd appreciate comments on whether or not he's banned. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, anyone is free to revert my revert of any edits that are perceived constructive - you'll obviously take responsibility for the edit, but it's no big deal IMO. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

An editor is banned, de facto, by virtue of being indefinitely blocked with no administrator willing to unblock. In the past, there has been dispute over whether a single admin was sufficient to reverse that presumption— but this does not appear to be the case for User:Fredrick day. As far as I'm concerned, this is a banned user and the block-revert of his sock is exactly correct. — Coren  00:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Per the banning policy - a defacto ban ONLY exists as long as noone is willing to overturn - if soemone is, then the defacto ban cannot exist. A community ban needs consensus to be overturned, not a lone voice(just clearing things up for everyone). Viridae 06:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd keep his contributions reverted for now, as per WP:BAN. —Mizu onna sango15 00:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the user being blocked, though I dunno about edit reversion or if he's formally banned. I mean, I certainly wouldn't unblock him, though it seems that this incarnation's edits weren't all bad. If there's support for a ban I'll add it in myself, though I'm looking through the edits now to see if there are any that are really needed to remain, but for now I'll hold off. Wizardman 00:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, revert any that you wish - you take responsibility for the edit, but if they're constructive, there's no problems at all. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide examples of who was criticizing your action? It seems to be exactly appropriate and precisely following all guidelines on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's one. I don't want to make a big deal about it, but finding someone reverting your talk page in order to remove an innocuous comment by another editor, without explanation, is rather disconcerting and looks like vandalism. If I hadn't gone looking for this report here I wouldn't have any idea what was going on. --Escape Orbit 09:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I had posted, a short while ago, a notice here about Fredrick day. Frederick day helpfully moved it to an existing discussion (where he also acknowledged being Fredrick day), and where it may have been a bit buried. I'll remember that trick if I ever need to cover something up. As to reverting all the edits as a banned user, my major complaint about that would be that Ryan's revert didn't state that as the basis, the one I saw. My guess is that most of those edits were basically good edits. I restored the one that I saw that Ryan had reverted. In my report here, I noted that he was not necessarily being disruptive (beyond the fact of block evasion), though he was certainly assertive -- which can be a problem dealing with new editors. He originally "sacrificed" this sock to point out to User:DGG about problems with what has now become Iraq War misappropriations. I did go ahead and complete some of the work he was doing on that article, I hope he finds it an improvement. I'd suggest to his friends -- or other editors -- that following after Special:Contributions/Frederick day or Special:Contributions/Ryan Postlethwaite and restoring the ones that are appropriate could be a good thing. Ryan is correct, though: you will be taking responsibility for them, as if they were your own. I'll restore ones that I happen to see. After checking. --Abd (talk) 00:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

before following up on his request at my talk page, I did check prior history--the name was so close that with my usual insensitivity to spelling I thought it was exactly the same & was puzzled to see it. (Abd helpfully reminded me to use caution, just in case I hadn't noticed.) That and a subsequent complaint were quite to the point. We seem to have a dichotomy between our insistence on removing work of indefinitely blocked editors and suggesting the pick a new user name and behave impeccably & nobody will notice. DGG (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it was WTF time for me for a while, until I figured it must be a variant spelling.... There should be no insistence on removing the work of blocked editors, but it is generally legitimate to do so, that is, any editor who thinks it to be safer for the project to blanket revert. Anyone else can then review and restore what they are willing to take responsibility for. When I did this for another blocked editor, Fred called it something like meat puppetry, which, of course, it wasn't. Ironically, one of Fd's little pranks was, when he knew I was watching his IP edits, and reverting most of them, to sprinkle some traps in BLPs. It's actually the only time I've gotten a serious warning. I figured that if some bad text had stood for months in a BLP, it wouldn't hurt for it to stand for a day more. But, no, the sense at AN/BLP was that this was a terrible thing and that each edit should be checked before removal, and I got a personal autographed warning Stop Now, Do Not Pass Go from Newyorkbrad. (The BLPs that were involved were for porn stars, and the allegedly defamatory material that I restored was actually well-sourced and not controversial. But it looked bad, and Fd knew it. Since I didn't care to do the research to find the most sterling, reliable source, I just dropped it. Did I really care if an article on a porn star had all the facts? Or, for that matter, that each and every edit of Fd be removed? No to both questions.) I would not have advised removing all those edits.... but Ryan was free to do so. I think Fred was on good behavior. Nothing I've seen was clearly bad, or uncivil by Misplaced Pages standards, and, in fact, I've reverted back most of what I've seen. I even voted Delete in an AfD that Fred had voted in, reverted out. Yes, pigs can fly and hell sometimes freezes over, but it was really a quite bad article that Fred found. Look, my position is that we need all kinds of editors, and my big objection to Fred was the incivility and edit warring. If he could learn to cooperate consistently (it looks like he's capable of it), he'd be a valuable member of the community. He did some awful stuff. But we don't -- and shouldn't -- punish. Just protect. --Abd (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Weren't you the leader of the brigade which had the User:Allemantando account indef blocked despite an evident change in attitude? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no. I was someone who noticed that Allemantando was possibly Fredrick day within about two days of registration, was involved in nascent edit wars with him and saw the damage done, but didn't do anything serious for almost a month, even though I saw disruption early on. I arranged for a friend of his to try to restrain him, and it worked, a little. But when he pushed and baited and continued to make a huge fuss about the mere fact that his edits and behavior were visible, I finally filed an SSP report and RfCU. And I don't recall demanding he be blocked. The fact is that he bailed before the process was complete. If he had simply come clean, or, later, had been willing to negotiate terms of a return, he might be editing yet. As has been shown, he could still be editing if he simply were discreet about it.

The rest I pick such obvious names is because of the level of hypocrisy this project displays. Everytime, I get blocked, invariably I get an message off one administrator or another who basically says "just sock quietly and avoid the areas you edited before" (and half the time it's the same admin who are here saying 'block this disruptive editor'). I don't want to sock quietly - if I wanted to do that, I could and would be entirely undetectable by the community - CU is a fairly blunt tool that is easy to avoid. But I don't want to do that, I've never wanted to do that because it avoids community oversight on my action and past conduct. I'm not being blocked anymore as a preventative measure, my block is now a punishment block - none of my accounts (whatever claims are made here and people can check the logs) were blocked or warned (*never* warned) for their conduct or editing beyond that week of fuckwittery towards the end of my time as Fredrick day (which is what? five months ago?) they are simply blocked for being me. The last time I went looking for unblock a couple of weeks ago and was discussing it with a number of admins, by an *amazing* coincidence - some edits from an ISP (*not* an IP, an ISP - one that has ten million customers) that it's said I've used in the past were dragged up and that was used to kick me to the kerb once again. It's a neat trick because at one time, I used all of the five largest ISPs in the UK - so with @ 25 million customers - I can be kicked to the kerb forever at simply saying "there he is!". --87.113.75.200 (talk) 09:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And he still doesn't understand. Yes, the current case of User:Frederick day is an example where an editor who was editing within norms was blocked because of prior activity. The problem is that when someone has been disruptive, again and again, we start to expect it even if they aren't being disruptive right now. This is not punishment, it's protective, even though in this particular case, there is little difference in the action between protection and punishment. By extensive, in-your-face, I-can-do-anything-I-want-and-you-can't-stop-me, yes, Fd has set up conditions where he probably cannot quietly edit unless he avoids any ... disruptive behavior. The problem, again, is that the difference between "disruption" and "strong editing" is not crisp, at all. The situation is really classic. Once an editor attracts sufficient negative attention to be blocked with a block that sticks, even if that editor returns and behaves in a manner that would normally hardly raise an eyebrow, those who oppose the editor's approach will scrutinize the behavior for flaws. Take a look at User:PHG. It's been quiet lately, no huge fuss seems to be current, but he's been blocked for *good* edits that allegedly violated an ArbComm restriction, when, on the face of it, they did not, and when that was pointed out, it was "wikilawyering."

But if we are concerned about justice, I'd suggest looking at how Fredrick day behaved with respect to the block of User:Sarsaparilla, who had done very, very little to deserve being blocked, who was blocked without warning for offenses that, again, would hardly raise an eyebrow. And who pursued his block-evading socks? Why, none other than our friend, Fredrick day. Sarsaparilla was creating excellent articles, making good edits, etc., and it was all being removed because he was a block evader. Where was Fredrick day then? If he's going to write about hypocrisy, perhaps he should look at what he could actually know directly, what is visible to him when he's not on the internet. It's a good place to start, actually.

He is almost certainly lying about the IP. But if not, remember the story about the boy who cried wolf? That coincidence won't continue to happen. It was not merely that the IP was from a major service provider (he's exaggerated the risk of that), it was the content and coincidence of articles of concern. Sure, there are lots of editors out there who might, say, vandalize a user page. How many vandalize my user page? Not very many. Take a look, they almost all came from his location. Is there something about me that enrages certain Brits? Very recently, there has been Fd-like behavior from the 87.112-87.115 range, edit warring with ... me. But the article is Routemaster. Did I try to get this IP blocked because it could be Fd? No. I asked for semiprotection. The IP is still welcome to contribute. With discussion. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

And Fredrick day is still welcome to return as an editor, if he will openly acknowledge what he did, all of it -- which allows for the possibility that he's not the only person in the world who might do something nasty -- and if he will then engage not to repeat the behavior, and accept a short leash for a while. That's all. It was offered before, and he simply bailed. --Abd (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I still reckon that pursuing an unblock of the original account is better than trying to get back in via socks. From what I recall, several of the "the should never come back ever, socks are bad" comments came from users who have been happy to approve the overturning of permablocks on accounts for editors they like. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

But it's not going to happen - I've socked and therefore I must be *punished* regardless of what any of the accounts were actually doing. --87.113.75.200 (talk) 10:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

From as I see it, your block is preventative, because you are constantly making new names to draw attention to your self, which is disruptive. Hard work and remorse are a better way to win support than flouting rules and showing off while doing it. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the original question, I would urge Ryan to WP:IAR and stop unconditionally reverting FDay's changes. The reason we have the rule that contribs from banned editors can be removed is so that we don't have to vet every single change to see if it was in good faith or bad faith. Especially in the case of pov pushers or subtle vandals, that can be challenging.

But FDay's issue was never one of good faith or of constructive edits; it was one of civility and assertiveness. There is no reason to believe his contribs were in bad faith. If he made personal attacks that offended other people, the damage has already been done. I just don't see a purpose in reverting his changes, and so I would say WP:IAR and stop doing it. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I reverted him as a banned editor - they aren't allowed to edit, so we remove any edits that they do manage to make. I'll do that in the future as well - if someone wants to take responsibility of the edit, they are free to revert me back and take control of the edit - it's no big deal, but that's what we do with banned editors. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you can understand that if a user is allowed to make socks to get around his block and continues to act disruptively, than you cannot use "IAR", because IAR is for the best of the encyclopedia, and allowing people to think that they can get away with such disruptive actions are not for the best. Also, by going around and making multiple socks and acting in the manner that he just did above as an IP (assuming that is he), then he has broken AGF by his own admission. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Actually, the relevant section of the policy only state that banned users' comments "may" be reverted, so you don't even need WP:IAR; the policy even goes out of its way to say that it isn't the case that helpful edits "must" be reverted. -- (nonadmin) _{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

@Ottava: I'm not saying that FDay should be allowed back to the project just yet. Granted, I really wish he'd stop with the IP socking and such, because I thought as Allemandtando he was a very valuable and civil contributor -- but I absolutely agree we can't let people back under these conditions.

I'm just saying that wholesale reversion of all of his contribs is unnecessary and not beneficial to the project. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Question On a related note, is anyone willing to unblock him? We certainly have a continuum of views about his reasons for socking to avoid the ban. but I view the creation of an account "frederick day" after "fredrick day" as an inartful unblock request. So does anyone want to step forward and unblock him? Protonk (talk) 16:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There was a recent discussion on ANI (somebody wanna dig it up?) about allowing Frederick to return from the desert and contribute to the community. While it is largely recognized that most of his contribs these days are positive and that he probably has a genuine desire to contribute in good faith, the consensus was that using socks and IP socks to demonstrate as such is inappropriate, and to unblock him would be to reward sockpuppetry, thereby screwing up any deterrence effect we have in regards to block-evading socks.

The preferred method to rejoin the community would be to quit it with the socks and contribute to a different Wikimedia project for a few months, to regain community trust. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree (as a non-admin), that that would be more helpful. la-wp could do with more helpers if he wants a suggestion. (you might learn something too!) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that an outcome like that is self enforcing and sclerotic. We shouldn't treat bans/indef blocks as broad philosophical stances. We should treat them as actions against editors for disrupting the community (or rather, to prevent future disruption to the community). this isn't a moot court, so specific case by case actions shouldn't impact future decisions about unrelated incidents. To be clear, I'm only responding to you because you are the messenger. I'm not assuming you share those feelings or that you should share in my distaste for that outcome. I'm not an admin (and if I were, I wouldn't unblock him because I'm 'involved'), but the community shouldn't be motivated to take a hard stance against 'issue X' in such a fashion. Protonk (talk) 19:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Given his persistent socking, I've hardblocked his range 87.115.0.0/18 for a week. MBisanz 17:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

that doesn't block me - so someone might want to want to look into that because it affects other editors rather than me. --87.114.36.65 (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now are you blocked? MBisanz 19:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Frederick Day, can you please stop? It is actions like this which causes a problem and harms the community. If you really want to edit and contribute to Misplaced Pages to make it better, why do you continue to act in this manner? Its harmful, causes problems, and increases tension. It is not really fair to a lot of the members of the community. If you would come back to merely apologize, that would be one thing. However, this seems rather harmful and distressing. I implore you, can you stop these actions? Sure, you may feel slighted. Sure, you may feel that some people contradict each other. But there are a lot of good people out there that are affected by the things you do. At least think of them. There will be range blocks to stop you, which will cause problems. There will be sock checks to find you, which will cause problems. Innocent people will probably be hindered. Why will this happen? Because of your insistence to act in a "rebellious" manner, and for what reason? What purpose do you really hope to get out of all of this? Attention? To upset things? If you merely want to be respected and have your posting privileges returned, then you need to realize the damages that come about from your actions and stop this. Give it some time. Get in contact with some of the blocking admin. Prove that you want to help, not hinder, and please stop going about this in the manner that you are doing now. It won't help. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless there's obvious opposition, he is officially banned as of now. Wizardman 22:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that I agree with the idea of a formal ban. Frederick day has been a disruptive user at times, has socked quite a bit, but they have quite a lot of constructive edits intermixed with them. I think they do have some intent of constructively editing to the project, but obviously, for now, he won't be unblocked. I'd suggested to him that he edits another project for a few months, to show that he can constructively edit Misplaced Pages, and then return here and seek a review of his indef block. I disagree with the upgrading of the indef block to a formal ban, and I'm probably standing alone here, but if that's the case, then so be it. I wanted to make my opposition known. Steve Crossin (talk) (contact page) 23:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Forget it steve - in many ways, I'm actually glad to see a bit of clarity - it beats what's go on behind the scenes for the last month "how long does blocked forever mean? FOREVER", "so should I just start a new account in secret ? NO BECAUSE YOU WILL BE BLOCKED FOREVER", "couldn't we discuss some criteria for my return? NO BECAUSE YOU ARE BLOCKED FOREVER", "So I might as well just edit in secret ? NO BECAUSE YOU WILL BE BLOCKED FOREVER AND A DAY". At least this way, my block will be shown for what it is - a ban. --85.214.34.238 (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)First of all, Fredrick day is pretty much impossible to block, without advanced systems that we don't have in place. They could be put in place, but Misplaced Pages is almost paralyzed from my point of view. Whack it on the head and a finger twitches. Short of some major structural changes, in how we utilize our volunteer labor, I'll repeat it: it is impossible to block him. He has access to not just one IP network, but many, and easily. He's said that he can pick up a number of unsecured routers in his neighborhood (which is clearly densely populated). It's believable. In addition, he has one or more direct access providers, with one or more major ISPs. The range 87.112 - 87.115 is obviously one of them, I'd guess that he gets a new address in that range just by rebooting his modem. Then, should you block that entire range, he just picks up a neighbor's router. Or maybe he walks down the block to an internet cafe. Or maybe he drives around in his car. You can, with a lot of effort, and a fair amount of inconvenience to other users, make it slightly inconvenient for him. That's about it. I gave up a long time ago asking for IP blocks, even when his IP persists for a day. Oh, did I mention that he knows how to use proxies? Now, the real trick: if what he's stated in the past has been true (which must always be questioned with him), he has other accounts, so all this talk about registering a new account and editing quietly is ... rather silly. I suspect that he has specific IP *and computers* that he uses for these other accounts. In other words, the only way to even get close to identifying him would be behaviorally. And he's careful. He changes his behavior. Now, from various clues, I have come to suspect certain users. And I am not going to reveal who they are, unless I find I could actually prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and even then I might not reveal it. Why? Because punishing Fredrick day has never been my motive.

If he's got an account that is not disruptive, I wouldn't go after it, generally. I didn't act quickly on Frederick day (the new spelling), thought about it for a day, and then did file a report. After others had already acted, apparently. I filed a report, months ago, on another suspected sock -- the only one that didn't result in a clear identification -- based on an IP "accident" and some behavioral evidence. It came back "possible." Perhaps because of the IP. Partly because there is a good chance the editor is not Fd, but mainly because the editor wasn't disruptive, I dropped it. Again, assuming it wasn't him, that is part of the damage from extensive socking. It creates suspicion. Fredrick day is claiming that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't -- so he might as well do it. But that is a very old and very dangerous argument, and it shows, unfortunately, that the welfare of the project isn't first on his mind. His own opinions are first, his own unrestricted freedom of action comes first. So, he will continue to remain blocked, I'll predict, at least for the time being. With the accounts that, as he has said many times, he "wants us to see." The others, he continues to do what he wants, and he's careful to keep them partitioned.

Fredrick day showed, in his actions as Fd and as Allemandtando, a certain kind of poisonous attitude. When I came to suspect other editors, I saw that same poisonous attitude, only restrained, only expressed when the editor felt safe. Are they Fredrick day? That certainly doesn't prove it. There is plenty of poison to go around, and if Fd's computers were to melt down and he became indisposed, Misplaced Pages would still have to deal with massive incivility and factional division. He isn't the cause, and so I don't consider "getting rid of him" to be the solution. I'd rather try to find a way to include him. But that won't happen until he also recognizes what I've been saying. It's not personal.

As to deleting his contributions, the bottom line is that any editor may do it. I don't recommend it, but, on the other hand, in reviewing some of the User:Frederick day edits, there is a certain edge to them. He was correct, generally, that is, I haven't seen any edits that would, properly, even result in a warning. However, a very experienced user popping into obscure articles that are being edited by the clueless, who doesn't take them by the hand, welcoming them and guiding them through our sometimes arcane process, but figuratively bonks them over the head with Misplaced Pages rules, this does some damage. So there is some value in reverting him; on the other hand, it can raise false hopes for the clueless. Whew! -- they think -- dodged that bullet! And then comes the AfD and it snows Delete. I found it a rewarding exercise to follow Frederick's edits in detail and to restore some and to deal differently with others. He was always "right," so far, but his actions weren't always the best that could be done, because of that missing welcoming element. Bottom line: there is no policy requiring his edits to be reverted, nor those of any blocked editor. But any editor may revert on sight, without harm, except for the BLP problem I mentioned above. And if someone doesn't like it, they can revert them back, thus taking responsibility for them. If his friends care about his contributions, they are perfectly welcome to take up what I've done to a small degree: review all his edits and restore the ones where reversion was a loss. And then, if someone doesn't like that restoration, they have someone to complain to, a responsible party. --Abd (talk) 23:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

(non-admin comment) Abd, I hope this doesn't come across as rude, but I think it might be a good idea to let someone else "look after" User:Fredrick day, as it could be interpreted that your disagreements with him are turning into a personal vendetta. I first encountered him while opposing one of his deletion nominations, and since then it seems like you have appeared everywhere he goes. I obviously don't know what is going on in any other person's head, but it seems like someone could easily get the wrong idea. There are a few responsible and incisive administrators in the above thread who are looking at this, so it's safe enough to leave it for others. Now I'm off to take my own advice and edit an article that needs quite a bit of work! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 08:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, Grey Knight. One question, though. What "disagreement?" The last few days, yes, I have appeared in many places he went (as User:Frederick day. Restoring his contributions, more often than not, or in some way trying to make up for them being more or less automatically reverted. "Vendetta?" Strange vendetta, I'd say. As to "incisive admins," yes, some are involved. And I've gotten appreciative email from more than a few. So.... what? --Abd (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Full protection of a non-blocked user's talk page

This doesn't seem right to me. Should this page have been protected? --NE2 01:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not if they're still editing, imo. Did you ask the protecting admin about it? –xeno (talk) 01:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I referred him here, where he can participate in the discussion. --NE2 01:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I really don't understand why there is a long edit war on that user's talk over sock puppet tags there. If it really is an abusive sock, put the tags on the user page. Jonathunder (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm moving the tags to the user page, protecting that, and unprotecting the talk page. Any problems with that, you'll have to refer the matter to someone else as I'll be gone until next Monday at least. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoever is complaining here should explain better. The "bad" user is accused of being a sock of someone who retired last year. I don't know of any rule that has been broken. Retiring or right to vanish is ok in WP. It does not mean you are banished forever. Unless there is more to it, picking on the user is not right. Presumptive (talk) 05:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, the funny thing is that Rschen7754 admits to being a sock. See that person's user page. Presumptive (talk) 05:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

So do I admit to being a "sock"! It's the abuse of multiple accounts which is forbidden; having ones is discouraged without some sort of legitimate reason, but is not disallowed. I hope that helps. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 12:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I am one of those involved in the complaining and its not as simple as you made it out to be. See both Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Artisol2345 (2nd) and Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/75.47.x.x+talk. -- KelleyCook (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That's still no reason to fully protect the talk page of an editor who hasn't even been blocked. I hope Rschen will think twice before locking an editor out of their own talk page in the future. It's acceptable only in very select cases, and it was pretty clearly not a good idea here, whatever disruption the editor may or may not have been causing. -- Vary | Talk 16:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly hasn't been established that 75.47 is Artisol2345/AL2TB/Splat5572, and, as someone who's tried to clean up after them, I'm not convinced. --NE2 20:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way NE2, speaking of "cleaning up after us" I've boldly decided to add all the junctions you removed back into the exit lists if you haven't noticed already - (e.g. from Bayshore Freeway back to U.S. Route 101 in California). Splat5572 (talk) 21:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I see that you've already been reverted, not by me. --NE2 21:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not debate the inclusion of freeway exits here. Take that to your talk page, now that it is unprotected, or to the relevant article or project pages. Before this thread spins out of control, is there anything more to be resolved here? Jonathunder (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, since the user's talk page is now unprotected and some editors have started using it, and since this user is responding to messages, I will mark this thread resolved. If there is legitimate concern this user is an abusive sock (and not all socks are abusive, as noted above) there are places to report that. If there is just concern about freeway exits or other normal editing concerns, discuss them in the appropriate places. Jonathunder (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --NE2 22:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up: Splat5572 has filed an arbitration request. It's probably not going to go anywhere, but he says he is AL2TB but not Artisol2345. As the only one currently editing is Splat5572, and particularly Artisol2345 hasn't edited for almost a year, is it really appropriate for his user page to be protected with a sockpuppet template? --NE2 02:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I originally submitted an arbitration request because well the 75.47 IP advised me to do it sometime in March, and I didn't have the time to do it now. Anyways I'm fine right now. I removed my request. (Though I really don't know if I should take anymore advice from the 75.47 IP; he edits my user and user talk pages a lot, so I decided to do the same thing to him. Yes, it didn't get us anywhere.) Splat5572 (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I see User:Rlevse helped you withdraw the request, beat me to it. Since you have had bad advice about the use of Arbitration, let me point you to the description of dispute resolution so you can find out how to solve future problems. Arbitration is the very last line of dispute resolution. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Rschen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) blocked as a sock of Splat5572 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), confirmed by Thacher. seicer | talk | contribs 04:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if calling them socks is appropriate, since their editing periods don't overlap. It's certainly a username policy violation though. --NE2 05:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

User:emilyzilch

I have been having trouble with this user for a while, where she (or he) kept removing references from such scholars as John Esposito and calling them unscholarly and unreliable. Her edits and POV-pushing have caused much trouble in some articles. I have been more than polite with her despite her incivility. The tone with which she writes is very provoking, and I have restrained myself while replying to her. She has just accused me of harassing her and following her edits when I removed controversial depictions from 13 articles, two of which she previously restored. I didn't notice his/her edits to the article and after I replied to one of her many uncivil messages telling her how I didn't know she edited the article, she dishonestly complained to User:FayssalF and left messages on other users' talkpages calling me a 12-headed sockpuppeteer. The next time this user addresses with this tone, I will answer him/her with the same incivility and impoliteness. En Ne talk 03:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You're both guilty of some incivility, and I suggest you both stop it. Currently and thankfully, however, neither of you have gotten far enough to require sanctions, so please just stop it. I can see quite clearly that you two don't like each other, so I highly suggest staying away from each other as much as possible. And take the content disputes elsewhere. If nothing else works, try some dispute resolution. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 04:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I admit to having lost my temper because of constant provocation. You have also admitted to "chasing" my edits to "correct" me. This makes a girl cranky after a while.

However, please note that I removed myself from reverts involving User:GreenEcho/User:Enforcing Neutrality and instead referred the matter to other users. And E.N., you were just banned for having 12 sock-puppet accounts (cf the very bottom of the page Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/Klaksonn if you have forgotten so quickly). Naahid بنت الغلان 06:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In defense of User:emilyzilch, E.N. not only frustratingly has been deleting important content (depictions from religious figures) from Misplaced Pages, but content that has been agreed upon before and cannot be deleted for censorship on Misplaced Pages anyway. I took am too somewhat becoming uncivil. Please see Talk:Twelve Imams. --Enzuru 07:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If you guys want I keep a plate of {{cookie}}s in the back, I could go get it out. Should help, right? lifebaka (talk - contribs) 11:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I certainly enjoy a sweet snack full of love, so feel free... :-) Naahid بنت الغلان 16:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Is User:Enforcing Neutrality another account of User:Klaksonn? If that is the case, and I can see how it could be given the same sort of incivility and disruption on similar articles, then further action would be required. ITAQALLAH 22:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would accept your cookie, however, I am a vegetarian. --Enzuru 23:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – Reporting user satisfied with resolution. –xeno (talk) 20:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – Everyone agrees that the block is good

Resolved

Resolved – blocked Toddst1 (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved. Mehndi semi-protected, some IPs blocked.-Wafulz (talk) 20:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved – Baseless accusation. --barneca (talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The situation speaks for itself, I have no comment at this time. Tan ǀ 39 16:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Spent 5 minutes looking into this, and now I want my 5 minutes back. Completely baseless complaint. Tanthalus' actions are fine; one unblock request had already been declined by another admin, Tanthalus removed a second, abusive unblock request and protected page to prevent further abuse. We're better off without Hilscher. --barneca (talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

See also this help desk thread. Tan ǀ 39 16:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Seems like a reasonable block. More to the point, you are obviously Hilscher (talk · contribs) (et al.) using an IP to evade your block and complain about it here. If you'd like to appeal the block, please take a look at the steps listed here, or consider emailing unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org, rather than dodging the block with an IP and posting an apparently groundless accusation phrased in the third person here. MastCell  16:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Tsk tsk, Tan. Didn't your momma tell you not to join cabals? L'Aquatique 23:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Unresolved – Someone familiar with the subject needs to take a look at this. –xeno (talk) 14:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

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