Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:58, 3 August 2008

• WP:RSN
• WP:RS/N
• WP:V/N

Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. Please post new topics in a new section. If you are satisfied with a response, please tag your thread at the top with {{resolved}}.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page.

If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board.

Archives

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References

LoolLex Encyclopedia

I was wondering if we can get a ruling on weather or not Encyclopaedia of the Orient/LoolLex Encyclopdia is considered to be a reliable source or not. I don't know about all the issues, but regarding the Middle East issues, the enyclopedia looks very reliable and realistic. Chaldean (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• I would prefer to look for better sources than the LookLex Encyclopaedia. It appears to be written through user-generated content. The authors are not required to have any particular credentials, and the site is not set up to display references showing where the authors got their information from. Although LookLex is not a wiki, it does not appear to be much more reliable than a wiki, so I do not think it should be considered a reliable source. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

sorry, but isn't that the same as Misplaced Pages, who checks the credentials of wiki editors? I am in Malaysia and travel to the Middle East frequently and agree with the above comment. I personally would consider it reliable. Agungsatu (talk) 14:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

• That's the point. Misplaced Pages itself is not a reliable source, so an encyclopedia which is not much more reliable than Misplaced Pages is probably not a reliable source either. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Blogs

Hi,

I recently got changes I made to Wiki undone because I link to this website - www.urbanreview.co.uk - I maintain that while it is in Blog format, it has now evolved into a full music website. it gives reliable information which has been sourced & backed up, so I fail to understand why it cannot be regarded as a good source of information, it is one of the biggest Urban music sites in the UK?

Also, I have seen other sites, which are clearly in blog format & contain opinion, used as references & they remain intact (www.concreteloop.com - www.rap-up.com). I wonder if this could be explained to me?

I am not trying to change the world, just get some closure?

Thanks to anyone who helps me out.

Pulsetech (talk)

That website does not meet any of the criteria listed in Misplaced Pages Reliable Sources. If you see similar sites being used as references, you should remove them. Corpx (talk) 09:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Be cautious in removing references, even poor references. (Incorrect references are another matter). This is a tactic all too often used by editors who want to delete an article without following due process. It works like this:

• • Find a notable, referenced article that you don't like. Popular or Outsider culture from the pre-Web era is best.
  • Claim the references are "unreliable". You don't need to defend this, it becomes the citer's problem to prove that they are.
  • Delete the "unreliable" references.
  • Tag the article as unreferenced.
  • Tag the article as non-verifiable (because you've removed the refs that verified it)
  • Tag the article as non-notable, because notability without verifiability is hard to demonstrate.
  • Delete the article

Andy Dingley (talk) 10:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with due process. If a reference doesn't meet WP:V no editor is under any obligation to leave it intact. Any reference that doesn't meet wikipedia's requirements should be removed immediately because it gives a false impression that information or an article have reliability when they don't. Your assumption of bad faith is disturbing.--221.143.25.19 (talk) 18:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not an assumption of bad faith. he's simply detailing a procedure to get a referenced article deleted by eliminating references. He's not arguing that particular editors do this or that all editors do this. IF someone brings an article to AfD in that fashion and the discussants at AfD don't do diligence on the article, it can very well be deleted in error. Once deleted, prior compliant revisions are hard to find. Protonk (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe this should linked to the above talk Urban Review Agungsatu (talk) 15:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Raw Story

Are articles posted on the Raw Story a Reliable source? Are they reliable enough to be used in biographies on living people?Counteraction (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

perhaps you could provide a link to make it easier for us to form an opinion. Agungsatu (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Raw Story does do its own independent reporting, though most of the stuff on their site covers stories from other sites. Though, I guess every news source does this. —Slipgrid (talk) 19:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Major Minor Obit

There is a local well-established newspaper serving a community of about 500,000 which sometimes (re-)publishes obits from major newspapers in other cities. My question is do I cite the local paper or do I cite the byline of the major paper listed with the obit even though I cannot provide details of issue or page if I use the latter ? Low Sea (talk) 04:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone asks, the local republished "far away" obits are for people with some sort of historical connections to the local community (relatives, schools, whatever). I am not attempting to establish such a conection, only the biographical facts from the original obit itself. Low Sea (talk) 04:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the guideline at Misplaced Pages:CITE#Say where you found the material covers this. It appears that you should cite the obituary to the publication you actually had access to, not the publication where it originally appeared. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's good to know. One last question... If I list the local newspaper as the "where I found it" then what is the best way that I should attribute the source newpaper it mentions? Perhaps list the SacramentoBee/NYTimes/ChicagoTribune/etc byline as author? Low Sea (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried searching the website fo the original paper for the original obit. If you can provide an online link to the original article (which should at least give you the original publication date), the page number isn't so important. David Underdown (talk) 13:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I will try that but in my experience few newspapers publish their obits online. Low Sea (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

A better practice than citing the source you got it from is probably to cite both. Cite the original obit, followed by reprinted in "My Local Paper" on "This date", or something like that. I just seems to me you should actually credit the original publisher, and this makes it easier for someone to track down a copy. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This is an issue that crops up often in academic writing, especially student or other deadlined work when there isn't time to track down original sources. It's called the secondary source problem. You read about an experiment on the tensile strength of jelly, done by Smith and Jones (1932) in the textbook written by Brown and Robinson (2005); and you can't get your hands on the paper by Smith and Jones. How do you reference this responsibly? Answer: in the text, you write, "The tensile strength of jelly was measured by Smith and Jones (1932, as cited by Brown and Robinson, 2005)." Then you put Brown and Robinson, not Smith and Jones, in the reference list. That way you are not claiming what you don't have (first hand knowledge of what Smith and Jones actually reported) and you are telling the reader where you got your information from. It would be most unwise to give a direct citation of Smith and Jones in this situation, since Brown and Robinson may well have misrepresented them - and you might run into a know-it-all reviewer who actually has the world's one remaining copy of the Journal of Dessert Mechanics for 1932, and will denounce you triumphantly for not knowing that in fact Smith and Jones measured the sheer stress of blancmange, and Green and Robinson didn't check their facts properly. If you make it clear that your sourcing is secondary, any mud (or jelly, or blancmange) will stick on Green and Robinson, not you - and more important, the reader who wants to be absolutely sure will know that the authority of your citation is qualified. seglea (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Guysen News International

I'm wondering about the reliability of a mostly French-language website (with some English articles), Guysen News International. Has anyone heard of it before? A handful of Misplaced Pages articles link to it . As far as I can make out, it seems to be a French-language, Middle East-focused equivalent of WorldNetDaily or FrontPage Magazine, i.e. essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It is a rather important Israeli Press Agency of French langage : .

It is considered to be pro-Israeli.

Ceedjee (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have follwed Guysen News for some time ... In French it is here: http://www.guysen.com/ It calls itself "L'agence de presse francophone d'Israel et du Moyen-Orient". It is considered pro-Israel because it is Israeli. It operates out of Jerusalem and carries the Jewish as well as the Christian date. It carries articles in English and in Spanish, and has a television station associated with it which can be found on Israeli cable stations. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

ChrisO, better take another look around the site. It is set up as a newspaper with news, editorials, political, society, cultural, sports, arts, religion, science and high tech, tourism and financials, and more. Each section seems to be updated daily. There is considerable local (Israeli) advertising for hotels and airlines and such. Not at all like WorldNetDaily or FrontPageMag. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It may be "set up as a newspaper" but that automatically doesn't mean it is one, or that it follows journalistic standards, hence my question. Anyone can set up a superficially professional website but by itself, that doesn't make it a reliable source. Don't forget, "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog". :-) -- ChrisO (talk) 20:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well we can take Ceedjee's answer as definitive. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"Journalistic standards?" Are we trying to determine that on this noticeboard? I was just speaking to your stated opinion at the question "As far as I can make out, it ... essentially an outlet for commentary and opinion." As to pro-Israel, as I stated -- it is an Israeli news source, so of course it will be pro-Israel, much the same as any US paper will concern itself with US interests. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Daily Mail

Can anyone tell if Daily Mail RS or not? May I use this paper as a RS for the article Durga Vahini? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that this article is published in the Daily Mail of Islamabad, and not the UK newspaper linked above. There is an editor in chief, per this., but I am finding it difficult to find independent sources about this newspaper to help judge its reliability.--Slp1 (talk) 13:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Daily Mail appears to be a mainstream newspaper in Pakistan, editor-in-chief is Makhdoom Babar and its headquarters is located at Shahbaz Centre in Islamabad . My only confusion is whether I can use that particular piece for the said article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For anyone looking at this section enquiring about the UK Daily Mail, rather than the Pakistani one; the UK Daily Mail is a tabloid, hence definitely not a reliable source (I've seen blatant nonsense published there) -- 92.40.122.216 (talk) 10:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

National Post

Is the National Post considered a "tabloid"? It's a Canadian daily published in Toronto, and my impression is that it is a reliable media source, but I was wondering what others thought. ATren (talk) 02:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• It should be considered generally reliable in my opinion. As far as I know, it's a mainstream newspaper. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it should be kept in mind that it has a specific declared ideological bias. DGG (talk) 11:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

It also has a horrible track record on at least one politically sensitive scientific topic. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide a link to the "specific declared ideological bias" ? Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

IMDb - is there any common result if IMDb is reliable or not?

IMDb - is there any common result if IMDb is reliable or not?

Hello! 1. Is there any stable information anywhere on Misplaced Pages that has established if IMDb is a reliable source for Bios of Living Persons or if it is not?

2. If there is no established result, is then there any stable and established guideline anywhere on Misplaced Pages if a not finally discussed source like IMDb could be used for such Bios?

Please give links to Misplaced Pages-pages for question 1 and 2, if you say there are any final established results!

I posted this on the discussion page of Biographies of living persons, where this specific topic is better located, but there noone answered so far.

Greetings

IMDB is a very commonly debated source, although I'd rather not go hunting through the archives to look for them. There is Misplaced Pages:Citing IMDb, a failed proposal for a guideline on the matter. In summary, the common outcome of debates is that IMDB is reliable for raw facts about movies (cast/crew, release dates, run time), but not for its user generated content. I'm not sure about IMDB biographies though, as I have not personally witnessed a claim on that matter before. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to chime in with a resounding NO, no IMDB is not a reliable source. Please check out the Zachary Jaydon hoax for a great example of the perils of sourcing to IMDB. Anybody can add their name to an IMDB article and then come claim that they were in the movie or tv sho. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 18:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is weird since it isn't the situation I encountered .To add information about a possible new movie for Sarah Michelle Gellar IMDB wanted proof of sources mentioning it ( and Variety did ) and they still wouldn't list it immediately and when they did she was listed as rumored .Garda40 (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

IMDB biographies are written by IMDB registered users. Why would they be more reliable than registered Misplaced Pages users? For example, the same IMDB user, freemca, rewrote the IMDB biographies of a bunch of African-American actors like Will Smith, Jada Pinkett, Regina Hall, etc. and included "of both African American and Native American descent" in all of them (Is that true beyond the wishful thinking of this person? Who knows? It's certainly not verifiable in any reliable source). Then, Misplaced Pages user Mcelite went around and added "of both African American and Native American" descent to these same actors' Misplaced Pages entries, citing either the IMDB or random websites that copied the IMDB's bio. Neat. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

IMDb is definitely not reliable in terms of what they choose not to include; I've twice submitted to them a major error on the Thunderbirds (2004) DVD, which claims that Thunderbird 3 (the spacecraft) has a top speed of 5,000 MPH (in flat contradiction to established scientific fact; TB3 would need to go at least 25,000 MPH to even be able to get into space), but they keep rejecting it. -- 92.40.122.216 (talk) 10:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think IMDB should only be considered a reliable source if the information in it mirrors the information in other sources also (that is, a cursory Google search turns up no contradictions). Generally speaking, they are reliable for well-known movies/actors. Their reliability with more obscure information is more spotty. Basically I wouldn't rely on IMDB if it is the only source you have. Esn (talk) 22:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If however, the information is found in other sources, then just cite the other sources. There is no need to use IMDB. I would even go so far as to suggest that claims sourced to IMDB should be tagged {{cn}} and the IMDB cite removed. IMDB is open for all to edit just like a wiki and should not be used for a source. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

IRNA

Hi, I'm wondering if IRNA, the Islamic Republic News Agency, is considered a reliable source for news items outside of Iran. I believe that it is Iran's state-run media organization, so I'm unsure of how neutral it can be expected to be as a source. The specific article I'm looking at is here, though the question is a general one regarding its reliability as a news source for events outside of Iran. Thanks. ← George 04:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• The particular article you are citing was apparently derived almost entirely from a Los Angeles Times article. If so, it would be much better to find and cite the original L.A. Times article instead of the secondary source at IRNA. (I should note that despite my misgivings about the use of IRNA as a reliable source, it can be useful in some circumstances. For example, as indicated at Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel, some people don't believe Ahmadinejad said Israel should be "wiped off the map". It certainly seems relevant to note that this IRNA article says, "President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Monday that the Zionist Regime of Israel faces a deadend and will under God's grace be wiped off the map.") --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I've found the original article here. It would appear that IRNA is taking the article extremely out of context, and misquoting it. The L.A. Times article, titled "Lebanon’s Sunni bloc built militia" was renamed to "US has built militia in Lebanon" by IRNA. Furthermore, the original article doesn't state that the US built or funded the milita, it says that the US backed (as in supported) the Sunni political bloc that built the milita. This makes me question IRNA's status even more. I'm going to replace this with the original source in the article where it was disputed. ← George 04:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

ReligiousTolerance.Org

Why are we relying on what is essentially a one-person consulting business, especially since that person has neither scholarly nor journalistic credentials?

From the website of "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:"

• Almost all of the over 4,015 essays and menus on this web site (by 2007-OCT) were written by our main author, and coordinator Bruce A. Robinson. He is a graduate of the University of Toronto, class of 1959, with a BaSc (Bachelor of Applied Science) degree in Engineering Physics. He worked for a large multi-national chemical company for 38 years before taking a "golden handshake" and early retirement during a company downsizing. During his employment, he functioned as a specialist in the development of electronic instrumentation, as a computer programmer working in process computing, and as a group leader. Technical writing formed a major part of his work assignment.

• Bruce was ... motivated to organize the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance in early 1995, after becoming convinced that religious intolerance was responsible for much of the hatred, mass murder and genocide in Bosnia, and in other world hot spots, like Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Cyprus, Macedonia, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Nigeria, the Philippines, etc.

• Many visitors to our web site question our authors' theological credentials. We explain that none of our staff have theological degrees. We feel that a formal theological degree would be counter-productive in our work. It would probably tend to bias our authors' understanding of religious matters in a liberal direction. A Bible school diploma would also be counter-productive as it would bias us in a conservative direction. Either would probably bias our authors in favor of Christianity and against other faith groups.

• Advanced theological training is not needed for our work. We are not theologians or religious innovators. We are simply reporters on religion, spirituality, and ethics.

Comments?--Cberlet (talk) 18:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Where are we relying on it, Chip? I've only come across it used as a convenience link, hosting a government report. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

A bunch of places. Try searching Google using

• "ontario consultants" site:en.wikipedia.org
• "tolerance.org" site:en.wikipedia.org

In some cases they hits appear to be copyrighted news articles.  :-( .--Cberlet (talk) 20:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Note that "www.tolerance.org" is part of the SPLC, a very different outfit. Here's a link to the over 1000 weblinks to "religioustolerance.org". (Some are to tlak pages or user pages). That does seem excessive considering the source's nature. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Oooops. Sorry, My mistake. Thanks, Will.--Cberlet (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear dear. My impression is that this site can rarely if ever count as RS but I would be interested in reading further comments. I suppose in some cases they will represent a notable viewpoint. But if you are right about the breaches of copyright then they are to be avoided even as a convenience link. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

No, well, as they admit themselves, they lack academic credentials and so can't really be considered reliable sources on anything. I'd also watch systemic bias. The site appears to have a very heavy focus on US issues. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 21:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• I note that there was a similar complaint some 18 months. See Talk:Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance#700+ religioustolerance dot org links in Misplaced Pages. It appears nothing was done and it's gotten worse. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that religioustolerance.org does not meet the requirements of WP:RS. It should not be used as a footnote or external link in any articles. It's a self-published website of essays stating the personal opinions of someone who is not a published expert or academic. There are several reasons it's used so much by editors - the articles are easier to find with Google than many more valuable references, and they have full text available that's easy to copy/paste, unlike Google Scholar or Google Books that require more digging, not to mention libraries; and, the opinions of the outspoken author can be tempting to those who might want to convey a particular POV. This has been a concern for quite a while; there's even a whole page about it from 2005-2006 at Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org. The site is used so much, it would be a good result of this thread to make a strong statement that could be referenced later when the question comes up again, as it certainly will. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 03:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Source clearly does not meet WP:RS standards. Would it be possible to add it to the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam list? John Carter (talk) 01:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I hope you're kidding. I'm not familiar with this website, but "external links" do not have to meet RS; i.e. wikis with a history of stability are acceptable. If there are copyright issues that's something else. But I certainly don't think this should be wikilawyered onto the spam blacklist. The spam blacklist is supposed to be for spam. Squidfryerchef (talk) 11:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I hope YOU are kidding. ...external links do not have to meet RS. Where did you get that from? Rumiton (talk) 11:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Read WP:EL. Not every outbound link from a Misplaced Pages page is used as a citation for a fact. There's a different policy for the "External Links" section at the bottom, and while those should be kept to just a few that meet the editors' consensus, they are not bound by RS. They're often used to link to other wikis, to directories like Dmoz, or to various important pages about the article topic. Squidfryerchef (talk) 12:08, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

There still has to be a rationalle for providing the EL. If it's essentially there as "Here is what some random people think about the subject" then it shouldn't really be there. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

• They're notable enough for their article to barely survive AfD, and there is some flexibility for external links, and academic or other external credentials aren't needed for representatives of or experts recognized by relevant religions who explain what their religions believe and do, but nonetheless they shouldn't be provided to every organization that happens to have a web site and the ambition to promote itself. This organization doesn't seem to be authorized to speak for or considered reliable by any relevant significant perspective, academic, religious, or otherwise. These links may not be "spam", and I'm willing to assume good faith, but I see no reason for there to be links to this site all over the place. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The links are all over the place because they're a high quality source, per WP:EL and WP:RS standards. To even talk about them at all in relation to spam when places like NNDB and one off specialist wikis are spammed all over the site is just ridiculous. DreamGuy (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• As noted in the AfD, I've had personal interactions with these folks. They are known for being fairly biased. Primarily in favor of groups that are labeled by others as "cults" and against more mainstream religions (mainly conservative Christianity). That said, I've found facts on their site to be fairly reliable. However, I'd consider them a reference of last resort at best. Hobit (talk) 12:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding me. They are not "known for being fairly biased" -- they are quite unbiased, but that objectivity offends many people who would rather they side with them and give certain religions special treatment. I've had interaction with them, and when they had errors pointed out to them in claims made in support of Wicca they cheerfully apologized and removed them. They don't have an agenda other than tolerance of all beliefs, which of course the intolerant are opposed to. DreamGuy (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• Copyright issues for material they have not authored themselves:

• Fine to use as a convenience link where they state that they use material with permission (e.g. here).
• If no permission is stated, don't link.

• For their own writings, copyright is not an issue, only reliability and reputability. Looking at google scholar: , , their site appears to have entered academic discourse, and has been cited by numerous reputable and reliable sources (examples include The Lancet, the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, the Journal of Religion and Society, Nova Religio and others). That would appear to be in the site's favour – if the scholarly community accepts them as a source, so should we. Jayen466 15:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The Google Scholar refs don't amount to acceptance by the scholarly community. It depends what texts of theirs (authored by them? hosted by them?) are cited, why, and how. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are some examples:

• (University of Chicago Press, B. A. Robinson essay included in bibliography)
• (Ethical Studies textbook quoting Robinson)
• (Baylor University Press, cites religioustolerance.org as a corroborating source )
• (University of Wisconsin Press, cites Robinson article on religioustolerance.org)
• (academic review of theological web resources, berates undergraduates for dismissing the site in a course assignment, because it carried advertising)
• (Oxford University Press, lists religioustolerance.org among recommended secondary research literature sources)

Jayen466 17:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Those uses do not support reliability in the way Misplaced Pages defines it. Use of a source in a bibliography does not convey reliability, the context of the use would need to be reviewed. And a couple of those sources use it in other ways, for example one reference mentioned it in passing regarding a student assignment about analyzing website quality, noting that they skipped it because it had advertising, and another noting that it's a "counter-movement" site useful for "triangulating research", indicating that the site's bias can provide perspective. One of the links cites BA Robinson but does not mention that he's also the website's publisher; it seems the author was not aware of that. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• This source was written by Rebecca Moore Ph.D., who teaches Religious Studies at San Diego State University. She asked her students to evaluate material available online. The undergraduates did indeed dismiss religioustolerance.org because it carried advertising. Moore notes this as one of the "discouraging" results of the test, describing Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance as a "small non-profit group" running "a massive educational program". In her view, the students should not have dismissed the site.
• The Oxford University Press cite does not list religioustolerance.org among countermovement sources, nor does it describe the site as biased. It lists the site among the recommended secondary research sources, along with peer-reviewed journals. (The triangulation approach, as described in the book, consists in researching and contrasting (1) movement sources, (2) countermovement (= anti-cult) sources, and (3) secondary research sources, within which the author includes peer-reviewed journals and the site we are discussing here.)
• Another scholarly source, describing Robinson as the "primary architect" of the website, and directing readers to the site for a comprehensive overview of the topic discussed. --Jayen466 21:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, sites and people can be reliable sources based upon demonstrated history of solid writing and research, and this site has it in spades. It's certainly far more of a reliable source than, say, news articles written by journalists who aren't experts or haven't even done much with a topic but were selected by their editor to write a story. There's been a pretty massive effort to try to get all mention of this site removed from Misplaced Pages, and primarily it seems to be led by editors who are opposed to the opinions expressed on the site and not for any question of its reliability on factual matters. The religious tolerance site is accepted by all sorts of sources everywhere as authoritative for the topics it covers, and when I have spotted errors at the site and let them know about it, they have been corrected. If you deem the site as unreliable then most other sites will be as well. If we move over to only accepted accredited scholars for any cite, then, sure, but since we're not at that level (and probably never will be), I can't see any Misplaced Pages-policy based reasons at all for why people are complaining about this site. DreamGuy (talk) 18:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• As a self-published website of one person's opinions, someone who is not an expert, is not elsewhere published, and presents comentary from his personal bias, it is not a reliable source. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

He most certainly is an expert, by virtue of studying it for years and being recognized as such by countless other experts (many with credentials that are simply undeniable) who support the site as a reliable source. I also note that in your editing of several articles you have promoted far less reliable sources and with very obvious and undeniable bias if they presented an opinion in accord with the ones you have established as your own. Frankly, this whole attack on the site appears to be politically motivated. At the very least the most your argument could support is the additional of another source to try to counterbalance the supposed bias (not that I see any... being in favor of tolerance of all religions is not a bias, per se... not printing negative attacks on religious groups you oppose is not bias either), not in removing them completely. DreamGuy (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What can be said apart from "you have got it wrong"? I doubt whether anyone who has posted here is opposed to religious tolerance. We might even be very sympathetic to the aims of the site. We are simply trying to pursue consistency in sourcing. My mind is still open as to whether this may in some cases be reliable - I see essays by Bruce Robinson cited in some places - but the bottom line is that we are looking for peer-reviewed and fact-checked sources. You will find the regular respondents on this page to be rigorous on this point. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

David G. Bromley in the above Oxford University cite specifically mentions the site as a secondary research source to consult, along with other WP:RS such as peer-reviewed journals, specialist academic websites and mainstream media. If we have one of the world's most prominent scholars in this field categorising the site in this way, and have a professor of religion teaching her students to take the site seriously as a reference source, and have various other scholarly texts that use the site as a WP:RS or expressly refer their readers to it, do you expect us to discard all these scholarly judgments because a few Misplaced Pages editors are saying, "I'm not sure" or "I don't like it"? Are Wikipedians now more reliable sources than scholars? Has anyone here, against these positive assessments by scholars, brought just a single academic reference stating the opinion that the site does not deserve to be taken seriously? If anyone wants to make a case against the site, I suggest they bring scholarly references supporting their case. Otherwise this discussion is over; WP sourcing policy does not give a hoot about editors' personal opinions and WP:OR. (And by the way, the article on Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance is a complete and total mess. I don't think there are three sentences in that article that are not blatant WP:OR. Not a single media or scholarly source is referenced, even though there are literally hundreds of them available. The whole article is Wikipedians' analysis of primary sources.) Jayen466 22:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've used the site as a link of convenience for the executive summary of a report cited on satanic ritual abuse. They used to be a straight-up EL on that page, but as the quality of sources used have been slowly ratchetted up, it's been removed. I enjoy reading it personally as it gives a good skeptical summary of various controversial issues, and I've mined it for the respectable amount of references it cites. Ultimately I think it is a good link to be aware of but I would only use it as a source on a page that is a fringe topic where no other sources are available. I'd rank it below Skeptic's Dictionary in terms of reliability from a purely wiki standpoint. Yes it's a good summary from a lay-person's perspective. It's probably a reasonable depiction of the mainstream skeptical view on many topics. But if there are better sources, particularly scholarly sources, it is not a good choice. WLU (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Dramatica and the Issue of Open Sourcing

There is currently a discussion on the Encyclopedia Dramatica talk page regarding the citation of ED's "About Us" page. (Apparently, I am unable to link directly to their site from here).

One editor argues that it is a reliable source because it is described by ED editors themselves. I have some strong reservations about using an open source wiki -- any open source wiki -- to cite anything reliable for Misplaced Pages purposes. I notice the "About Us" page can be edited by anyone. To my mind, that invites instability to our own pages in the long-run, not to mention the issue of what exactly we should be citing on the "About Us" page (but that's a separate matter).

Originally, we cited the much more reliable New York Times description of ED. That is still in the article (I hope), but the issue of what to do about the ED open source is still pressing. What do uninvolved editors here think? I look forward to reading your comments. Thanks, J Readings (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Would an acceptable solution be to sample their self-description at two or three dates and to make sure that the reference says "version of .... (date)" ? Itsmejudith (talk) 12:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a wiki and not usable as citation. Anyone can change it at any time and taking a static version in the form of a diff introduces editor bias to supporting anyone version. The long and short of it is that it shouldn't be used as a citation period.--221.143.25.19 (talk) 02:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the logic of that. Self-published sources are acceptable for description of their own views. OK, this is a slightly unusual situation in that the content can change very rapidly back and forth. But to a lesser extent this is also true of the notable blogs that have articles. Of course the article must make it very clear that ED is a wiki and can therefore change by the minute. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

• Bingo. Just cite a specific revision of the about us page and go from there. as long as the SPS is not used to verify contentious claims or add to notability, it is not a problem. Protonk (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Malaysia TODAY

Personal blog by Raja Petra Kamaruddin. Is this personal blog reliable for biography for living people? It is a blog run by Malaysia's most famous conspiracy theorist, can this blog be used for reference for biography for living people?

Blogs are not considered reliable sources, especially not for BLP. It may be all right for material about its author but not for articles on other people or other subjects. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

As long as the blog can reliably be established as belonging to this individual it can only be used to source facts about himself, that is it.--221.143.25.19 (talk) 01:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The Internet Movie Database Bio Pages

I know that the main pages of movies, shows and creators on imdb are considered reliable, but are the biography pages, like this one, considered reliable? They're based on information supplied by readers, and are often poorly written and organized.

Also, the Jasmin St. Claire article gives her real name as Rhea Alexandria Scarfazzo Calaveras, and gives "USPTO trademark filing # 78463547" as the source. How can this be verified? Is there an online resource for checking trademarks? And how could a trademark establish a birth name? Nightscream (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

PTO applications are publicly available . Although I don't see that birthname anywhere in there. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

How do you use that page to search for it? I can't see a search field on it. Nightscream (talk) 07:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know nothing on IMDB is considered reliable, not even the main page. It is 100% user generated as far as I know including the main page which lists which movies/shows/etc they have been in. IMDB can be linked as further reading, but that is it. Randomly looking up an actress last night I noted many omissions from her front page.--221.143.25.19 (talk) 01:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

there are some past discussion on RS/N about IMdb. I've linked those and the SPS consensus here. Basic rundown is that production details are likely marginally reliable but anything user editable is not reliable (bio, trivia, goofs, etc). Protonk (talk) 17:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is run on a University of Tennesee website by James Fieser, Ph.D., founder and general editor and Bradley Dowden, Ph.D., general editor. It describes itself as "The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is a non-profit organization run by the editors. The Encyclopedia receives no funding, and operates through the volunteer work of the editors, authors, and technical advisors." I have seen some good info and some questionable info, so thought I'd get others' opinions before either knocking it as a source or using it as a source. Carol Moore 01:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

The two editors are both full Professors, so it's off to a good start. However, despite the front page saying "A Professionally Peer-Reviewed Resource", I can't say it's as reliable as a book published in a academic press or a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal (at least until an explanation can be found for exactly how the peer-review process happens in regards to this site's content). - Merzbow (talk) 23:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'll email and ask them :-) Carol Moore 01:45, 12 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

It is generally well-regarded as an introductory source of information in academic philosophy circles. It's not the most reliable source, but its failings are common to most encyclopedias and other overview or introductory sources. (It often glosses over details or omits some context, rather than any kind of gross inaccuracy). It's good for the basics and it most certainly meets our general model of reliability. That is, it is well-regarded in its field, it is written and maintained by experts, has editorial oversight and is published/endorsed by a reputable university. A similar project that has a slightly better reputation for accuracy, is much more complete and is much better established is The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, though it also has similar limitations/flaws to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Vassyana (talk) 21:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Tarmac

The article states that "tar-grouted macadam was also in use well before 1900". This goes against the general view that tarred roads did not really come into use until the turn of the 20th century with the advent of the motor car. Thus, I am challenging this statement.

The article needs more sources and if you know of any perhaps you could add them to the article or leave a message on the article talk page. However, I think it is clear from the article that although such methods were known and sometimes used in the 19th century, they were not introduced on a large scale until the patent of 1901 was granted. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Then, shouldn't we make this clear, that though the technology was known it was little used until the motor car arrived on the scene? 19century (talk) 02:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please feel free to tighten up the wording in the article so that it reflects the sources that we have. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Alexa.com

Is site information from Alexa a reliable source? Discussion at Talk:Communist_Party_of_Great_Britain#Successors. --Soman (talk) 16:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It might be OK for site traffic, I don't know. But from what I see at the talk page discussion, that does not seem to be the issue. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It's just a repeat of the claims made by the website, not an independently reviewed description. Cite the website directly for the claims it makes (but be cautious to follow WP:SPS). It would be greatly preferable to rely on what reputable independent sources have said about the topic. Vassyana (talk) 20:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

"It's just a repeat of the claims made by the website, not an independently reviewed description." Where is the evidence for your claim? The user Soman is a well-known Stalinist propagandist who is attempting to erase all mention of the anti-Stalinist successor group Communist Party of Great Britain (Provisional Central Committee). --62.136.183.186 (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, this is in no way a real source, it's repeating gossip and self-representation. No fault of the site, they're set up to do just that, and there's no indication that they're making any value judgements. It's like saying that "I typed cpgb into google, and this came up, therefore...". Funnily enough, I typed "cpgb" into alexa.com, and guess what came up...? Everyone outside of this sect sees them as having hijacked the name, not as successors. If someone can turn up a respectable academic reference then it may be applicable... but I believe that respectable academic sources see the CPB and the CPS as the "successors" to the CPGB. Grmdy (talk) 18:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi Publication as source of information regarding Polish German history  ?

Hi, I have a question regarding a source I encountered in the article Settlement Commission, which is about an institutions that aimed to increase number of Germans in Polish parts of German Empire. Recently a source was added with no date or location of publishing that claimed some of people settled by Comission were native to those territories. The source was only named as : Baron Galéra, Deutsche unter Fremdherrschaft, Band I, p.37

I started to search out of curiosity who that was. After a while it appears that the person involved published books for Nazi regime and was a pro-nazi propagandist.

His works are recorded in "Nazi Collection Research Resources in the Archives and Special Collections Research Center" Under:

Galéra, Karl Siegmar, Baron von. Deutscher Reichsspiegel: Männer und Bewegungen im Kampfe für Reich und Gegenreich. Leipzig: Hesse & Becker Verlag, 1936. Nationalistic survey of Germany’s greatest eras intended to instill pride in the Third Reich. DD89 .G3 1936A

Galéra, Karl Siegmar, Baron von. Österreichs Rückkehr ins Deutsche Reich; von Kaiser Karl zu Adolf Hitler. Leipzig: Nationale Verlags-Gesellschaft, 1938. Attempt to show Hitler as the fulfillment of the Austrian wish to be part of a Greater Germany. DB96 .G3

In Ball State University Library.

He is also mentioned in collection of Nazi Propaganda Literature: in the Library of the YIVO Institute for Jewish Research: Source Materials on Modern German Anti-Semitism, National Socialism and the Holocaust

He is named as "antisemtic, pro-Nazi Baron von Galera" in Jewish Currents by : Morning Freiheit Association published in 1956.

I also found the book itself that is used as source. It was published in 1933. Its title is longer and translated as History of robbed German territories. Poles and Balts in their war against German people. Which has obvious bias and indicates POV.

Throughout the book several statements are made praising Nazi movement. Several racist statements are made against Poles for example on page 25 it says Poles hate Germans because Germans are good workers and disciplined while Poles are culturally inferior and unable to create anything.

Page 93 calls Poles barbaric.

On other page the region of Poland is called "more German then Polish"

On page 273 the author states that Nazis want peace with neighbours of Germany.

On page 279 the author states that Nazis thanks to determination found a way to end suffering of Germany.

Several more such statements can be found.

I don't believe the book can be used as reliable source for information about history of German presence in Poland and Polish-German relations, I do have serious doubts if the author wouldn't present the presence of Germans and reduce the importance of state colonisation to support nationalistic claims against Polish territories. This a pro-Nazi, extremist publication. It use as source is unnacceptable. I believe that as Nazi publication the book should be removed as a source and a better one provided. Comments ? --Molobo (talk) 19:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It's only usable as an example of Nazi claims and propaganda, not as a source for anything factual. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Btw, I'd like to see an article on Karl Siegmar Galéra; we need more articles on Nazi "historians" (like Walter Frank). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The author is cited in the Settlement Commission article not for his views of anything, but for a statistic he surely did not work out by himself: Number and origin of the settlers. The total numbers cited by G. are the same as cited by the other sources (engl and polish) given in the article, so it can be taken for granted that G did not exaggerate. G was used as a source as he does not only give the total, but also the origin of the settlers and the ha size of the bought farmland. I do not see a reason why this particular informations should not be trusted. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I think there will be a concern if you don't see a reason why Nazi propaganda is not to be trusted. Use other non-Nazi sources.The claims of Nazi propaganda literature that German settlers who were to Germanise Poland were in part native to Poland are not reliable. It's obvious they would claim that. Furthermore we shouldn't encourage people to take Nazi propaganda literature seriously. Why did you used it as a source. Did the fact that the authro praises Hitler and makes racist remarks didn't warn about reliability of the author or did you not know who he is ? --Molobo (talk) 12:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Watch your tongue. I can no longer assume good faith if you turn my statement I do not see a reason why this particular informations should not be trusted into don't see a reason why Nazi propaganda is not to be trusted.. You call me a Nazi?! I regard this highly uncivil, mind you are out here on parol. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not talking about you but about the author who is listed as Nazi propagandist. I have no reason to believe you are him, so please don't change the topic of the discussion. May I ask for explanation why you put Nazi publications as source for Polish-German history--Molobo (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Molobo ??? What Molobo claims in Misplaced Pages and what was actually written in the book

]

Yes, this is clearly not (only) about the source or what's taken from it and was trumpeted into the world. Instead of bringing it up on the article's discussion page first, a whole campaign was created for publication here, at WikiProject Poland, at the talk page of the admin who had given Molobo another last chance and finally at your talk page. I fear this is about implying "I am just fighting Nazism, so help me / don't block me" and is not new of him but effectively flies under the radar of the filters including the most explicit one. Sciurinæ (talk) 14:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed I contacted an admin who dealt with me so that he might be able to deal in constructive way with this issue, I also contacted the board who is involved in Poland related issues. In addition I contacted Durova who is an uninvolved admin that I know from arbitration cases and I believe him/her to be a constructive issue solver. I see nothing wrong in contacting people who are constructive Wikipedians so that they will be able to solve that issue and engage in fruitfull discussion. This is how the process works Anyway you dodged the whole main issue that is the fact that an editor is using Nazi era publication which praises Nazi movement, Hitler and so on to source facts about Polish-German history. Obviously this is a problem--Molobo (talk) 14:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

You're confirming my very point. The main issue to you is actually the editor (guilt by association against Skäpperöd and honor by association for you). And you've just extended the campaign to trumpet it to yet another admin (Durova). I highly doubt that Skäpperöd knew much about the source, which is online and without any information about the date or any other disclaimer and nor is it typical of Skäpperöd to use such sources. This is just how you portray editors as having Nazi sympathies and is very typical of you. Sciurinæ (talk) 14:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the fact that I contacted Moreschi and Durova, do report it. I contacted Durova because he is an uninvolved admin and has expertise in solving Wiki disputes. If the Skapperod didn't knew about the source,he shouldn't have use it. However after I informed him that the source is a Nazi publication he once again used it as a source. I will repeat this-Nazi publications praising Hitler and making racist remarks about Poles can't be accepted as a source about Polish history.The source can only be used as presention on Nazi views.--Molobo (talk) 14:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I did not use the source again after you "informed me" ( and half of wiki) about the Nazi stuff in the book. I introduced a new source to a sentence and moved the old source out of the section backed by this new source. Who follows your link will discover this, who just reads your accusations might either think I am a stubborn Nazi (do you want this?) or "Why is Molobo so eager to make Sk look like a stubborn Nazi"(do you want that?). Stop your attacs like that.Skäpperöd (talk) 15:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not have a problem with the fact that you contacted Moreschi and Durova per se - you're putting words in my mouth. I have a problem with unfairly playing the Nazi card against Skäpperöd and for you. I have a problem with how you even beat about the bush, "I am not talking about you but about the author", and in the very same breath try to assert it: "May I ask for explanation why you put Nazi publications as source for Polish-German history" (nice generalisation). You're explicitly claiming that this is common behaviour of him and no, this is not what upright process is like. And no, Skäpperöd didn't continue using it as a source - on the contrary: in the very diff you're citing the only thing he did was replace for half a sentence the source with a good one. Sciurinæ (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyway how it will look like when Nazi propaganda literature where Nazi movement is praised is used by Misplaced Pages as reliable source for claim that German colonists in Poland came from Germanised territories ? --Molobo (talk) 12:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

What claim? Neither I understand what you mean, nor is there any claim in the article connected to the cited statistics.Skäpperöd (talk) 12:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is, the claim by the Nazi author is that thousands of German settlers were native to Polish lands inserted by you "35,000 people were German natives from West Prussia and the Province of Posen, and about 5,000 families were Germans of the other parts of the partitioned Poland, Congress Poland (Russian province) and Galicia (Austrian province)<ref>Baron Galéra, Deutsche unter Fremdherrschaft, Band I, p.37."Please find a source that is not a Nazi propaganda that claims German settlers in Poland were native to those lands. I would also like to know why you decided to use Nazi propagandist as source of information regarding Polish-German history ?--Molobo (talk) 12:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

And why do you think that this is untrue? Skäpperöd (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2008

I don't think any explanation is needed why Nazi propaganda is untrue. The article can state that Nazis claimed German colonists were native to Poland, but it shouldn't be presented as fact.--Molobo (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2008

The about 5000 native families from Poland outside the Prussian part mentioned by G. are backed up by another source I presented in the article. Up to now, I do not have a source backing up the number of families just moving inside Prussian Poland, but now I see even less problems regarding these particular statistics cited by G., even though there certainly is Nazi propaganda in the book. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi publications can't be trusted, its obvious they would claim German colonists were in fact native inhabitants of Poland.--Molobo (talk) 14:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The source did not claim that German colonists were in fact natives of Poland. The source said ~22000 families moved in, that is backed up by other sources. The source said, of these ~5000 families were Germans from Prussian Poland and ~5000 Germans from Russian and Austrian Poland. The latter is also backed by another source, which proves you wrong stating there were no German natives of Poland among the colonists. If the statistic would be manipulated by propaganda, it would state a higher total number of colonists and a lower number of German Poland natives. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I repear-Nazi publications aren't acceptable source of information. The Nazi propagandist can just as well make such distinction to make the claim more believable. Use a reliable, non-Nazi source and please remove Nazi propaganda literature.--Molobo (talk) 15:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Molobo, all Skäpperöd said was that if the numbers in a Nazi source agree with numbers in reputable sources, one can take those numbers to be reliable. No one is espousing Nazi propaganda as truth.
   If you look at ethnolinguistic distribution in Europe at the start of the 20th century, majority German inhabitation reached to within 100 km west of Krakow, with pockets of Germanic majorities extending throughout central and eastern Europe all the way to the Black Sea and up into Ukraine. Those are facts. What someone does with them is something else.
   You've obviously put in a lot of time to investigate the source. That doesn't mean you should now invest time in looking for a fight when there's no cause. —PētersV (talk) 15:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that, given the research Molobo has done here, even if the source is not wrong in this case, it is still not reliable for Polish German history. Everything it says would have to be fact-checked against other sources, and at that point, those would be the sources we would want to use, anyways. Antelan 15:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Not to mention that even Nazi statistics are suspicious. Are there any modern expert publications confirming those statistics? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The statistic in question (German families settling lands in Prussian Poland 1880s-1910s) was not a Nazi statistic, but from an earlier period. The problem is, that this statistic is cited in a Nazi era book also containing propaganda. There are other sources each in part confirming the statistic (in particular: the total numbers of settlers, and the number of settlers from the Russian and Austrian parts of Poland). What is still missing is a source confirming the number of settlers that moved in from other parts of Prussian Poland. I would appreciate such a source to be provided, but I think if the other parts of the statistics are right, why shouldn't this part be reliable, too. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, I think we can avoid books published in that era. If he is using earlier data, can we not directly examine the reliability of that data?

More generally, I see that

Lucassen, Leo (2006). Paths of Integration: Migrants in Western Europe (1880-2004). Amsterdam UniversityPress. p. 99. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) backs up the 22,000/5,000 from Russian Poland figure, but no backup for the 'Polish Germans' figure. A possible source of the confusion: according to Berghahn, Volker Rolf (2004). Imperial Germany, 1871-1918: Economy, Society, Culture, and Politics. Berghahn Books. p. 388., Poles took advantage of the fact that they were German citizens - and technically German under the law - to found credit cooperatives to purchase land for ethnically Polish peasants. Amusing. Incidentally, the methods of the Commission (consolidated lending to purchase bankrupt estates then turned profitable by setttlers with technical improvement) were being closely observed by Zionists in the German Empire. I love Misplaced Pages sometimes. I would never have known that otherwise. --Relata refero (disp.) 19:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Input

If the above description of this work is true, and I have not seen anyone challenge that, then this source is clearly not reliable for describing Polish German history. Certainly, better, neutral sources can be found for this subject. Antelan 15:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Trying to follow the long arguments above has given me a headache, but I will say this: Nazi propaganda is of absolutely no use as a source, either on its own or to corroborate other sources, except as a source of what Nazi propaganda says. -- SCZenz (talk) 17:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, weighing in here with a couple of clarifications. First, I am not an administrator; second, I'm a she. Molobo's research on the subject in question is a bit more accurate. I tend to edit more on French history than on German history, but I happen to have actually done more formal coursework on German history and I speak German, so please bear with me through a short background.

The dominant trend in nineteenth century German history was political unification. At the start of that century German-speaking peoples had lived in some 300 separate states, which got overrrun by Napoleon and then reorganized into 15 separate states after Napoleon's fall. Over the next several decades Prussia unified those states and initiated an expansionist policy to annex provinces with significant German-speaking populations from other countries. Some of those annexations remain part of Germany today (Schleswig and Holstein used to be southern Denmark) and some of them aren't (Alsace and Lorraine have returned to France). At the risk of some oversimplification, to Europeans of the mid-1930s Hitler's foreign policy appeared to be a continuance of that tradition--and in a sense it was, although so radicalized that it's barely recognizable as such in retrospect. This is why it's possible in the early 21st century for a well-meaning editor who is not an apologist to mistakenly suppose the statistics this type of source can somehow be separated from the racism: under the Nazis playing fast and loose with the facts in the service of politics was not only permitted but encouraged. They actually had an effort underway to rewrite the history of science and exclude contributions by Jews; a little fudging of population data about a country they wanted to invade anyway is trivial by comparison. This is why Nazi era sources by Nazi sympathizers aren't generally useful as anything other than documentation of Nazism. Occasionally other independent sources corroborate the numbers; they didn't always lie. But when that happens, just quote the other sources. Durova 18:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Two points made by Durova above and about supposed reliability:

Durova: Prussia unified those states and initiated an expansionist policy to annex provinces with significant German-speaking populations from other countries. 1. Some of those annexations remain part of Germany today (Schleswig and Holstein used to be southern Denmark) and some of them aren't 2. (Alsace and Lorraine have returned to France)

Should it not rather state more historical facts, such as:

1. Schleswig and Holstein have a many centuries old agreement, that they are one Schleswig-Holstein, ruled by dukes. The dukes became later also Kings of Denmark. Schleswig-Holstein remained governed by Schleswig-Holstein Dukes. It did not 'used to be southern Denmark', it was not 'an other country', but the dukedome of Schleswig-Holstein with German-speaking inhabitants. Just like any border region, people could speak both languages and often intermarried.

2. Wasn't Alsace and Lorraine or Elsass Lothringen for about 700 years German HRE Empire, only from 17th century taken over by France until 1871, returned to German Empire, forcibly taken by France after "Treaty of Versailles"

An Observer 13 July 2008

As expressed above, my summary oversimplifies somewhat. Any discussion as brief as this necessarily oversimplifies (yours does too). Durova 20:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Baron Galéra would indeed seem not to be the most objective source on the subject of this article, and would best be replaced by a more neutral, scholarly and reliable source. Nihil novi (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This PDF reference is in a matter of fact a valid reference, since it comes from educational site www.bsu.edu. But it shouldn't be used to document an article about Polish-German history. It should be used to document an article about Nazi propaganda. Imagine an article called simply "Slavs" or "Gypsies" with a statement in its lead like this: Slavs/Gypsies are Undermenschen (inferior race) than Germans also known as Übermenschen (of superior race)

---References---

• "Mein Kampf" - Copyright 1924 Adolf Hitler, Landsberg am Lech,

Fortress Prison Verlag 1

"Mein Kampf" is definitely a notable book, but it shouldn't be used to prove someone's point Slavs or Gypsies are of inferior race in English Misplaced Pages, as per WP:NPOV. greg park avenue (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Molobo ??? Misplaced Pages Reliable sources

What Molobo (see above page 25, 93, 273, 279) claimed of Dr.Karl Baron Galera’s book

What the book actually says (check out pages Seite: 25, 93, 273, 279):

Page 25

Galera (translated): ‘’The persecusion of the Germans seem to be explainable only due to hatred and jealosy of Poles. The hard working Germans… The woiwode Stephan Garczynki in Posen said that quite openly in 1751.’’

Page 93 - ------------ ( states nothing at all about barbaric)

Page 273

Galera quotes the new Gauleiter Albert Forster and Dr. Rauschning, Hermann Rauschning, representing the NSDAP in Danzig as saying:

1. (that they) have the wish to have peaceful cooperation… 2. (that they) are willing to acknowledge the treaties… 3. will adhere to the constitution guaranteed by the Voelkerbund (League of Nations)

Page 279

Galera describes the terrible strains and hardships Danzig has to endure under the enforced Polish Customs union… Danzig wants to have it voided. Galera (translation): ‘’The Nationalsocialists found, just like in torn-apart Germany, also in the deadly-sick Danzig the strength and perseverance to end this misery’’…

What is the justification for Molobo and others at Misplaced Pages to defame Dr Karl Siegmar Baron von Galera ?

Misplaced Pages User Molobo posted (above) a "Nazi-Propaganda List" of the Ball University shows besides books by Dr Karl Siegmar Baron von Galera the following:

• Emmi Bohnhoeffer 1965 (see: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
• Brockhaus
• Canada Privy Council
• Catholic Church
• Evangelical Church
• Centralverband Deutscher Staatsbuerger Juedischen Glaubens (Central Org. of German Citizens of Jewish Faith)
• Commission to Study the Organization of Peace ,The United Nations
• Friedrich Engels The German Peasants War
• Matthias Erzberger

In other words, Molobo (and a number of other Wikipedians) failed to check and to inform , that the Ball University site states: ’’’The Collection documents the era of the Third Reich in German history’’’ Nowhere does the University say , that all the books on the list are Nazi-Propaganda, as Molobo tries to make Misplaced Pages readers believe. The university states, that these are research materials for the Nazi ERA. All these books on the list were the property of a Robert Wire, who donated them to the Ball University.

The truly discusting thing is, that a number of Misplaced Pages people agree with Molobo, and fail to check facts about Karl Siegmar Baron von Galera. Misplaced Pages fails to check facts in so many other instances and rather starts or picks up and continues rumors.

It is particularly sad when one realizes, that Baron Galera was a victim of Nazism himself, as can be read in Halle University, where he tought: ‘’Dozentur wurde 1943 aufgrund der nicht-arischen Abstammung des Inhabers Siegmar Baron von Galera fuer erloschen erklaert’’ In 1943 his license was rewoked because of his none-arian extraction.

He wrote regional history of cities books and bios.

A number of books by Baron Galera show up on amazon books on eBay and in antique book stores, a number of books were reprints in the 1960s and 70s. An Observer 14 July 2008

Bell University wrote about his books: Galéra, Karl Siegmar, Baron von. Deutscher Reichsspiegel: Männer und Bewegungen im Kampfe für Reich und Gegenreich. Leipzig: Hesse & Becker Verlag, 1936. Nationalistic survey of Germany’s greatest eras intended to instill pride in the Third Reich. DD89 .G3 1936A

Galéra, Karl Siegmar, Baron von. Österreichs Rückkehr ins Deutsche Reich; von Kaiser Karl zu Adolf Hitler. Leipzig: Nationale Verlags-Gesellschaft, 1938. Attempt to show Hitler as the fulfillment of the Austrian wish to be part of a Greater Germany. DB96 .G3 --Molobo (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Stubs created on two authors named Gal(l)era

We have now stubs about

• Siegmar Baron von Galéra (based on de:Siegmar von Schultze-Galléra) (1865–1945), who had a tenure at University of Halle until 1943 when it was revoked for his non-Aryan extraction. He also was honoured by his home town in 1999, so he hardly was a Nazi
• Dr. Karl Siegmar Baron von Galéra, his son, who published at least until the 1960s

I strongly suggest to discuss these two persons at their articles instead of extending this mess here. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to {{db-author}}, these two stubs are now gone. Ashes to ashes. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That he fell out of favour in Nazi party is hardly argument to claim he couldn't be Nazi.Ernst Rohm was murdered by Nazis yet was still a Nazi. Likewise that some town honoured him is no qualification he wasn't a Nazi in 1933-Heinz Reinefarth was responsible for murder of up to 100,000 Poles in Warsaw Uprising yet people of Westerland voted him to become mayor after the war and later elected him to Landtag. So this claims are not in any way supportive of him being non-Nazi. From Galera "Hate of the unfree race against German Masters(...) that seperats Germans from other people of Europe "-can we end the discussion if he is reliable with this fragment ?

Um so tiefer aber wurde auch die Kluft zwischen den deutschen Herren und den Litauern, Letten und Esten. Es wuchs ein Haß der unfreien Rasse gegen das Herrrenmenschentum, jenes typische psychologische Moment, das seit den Tagen der Reformation die Völker Europas von den Deutschen trennt. page 46 --Molobo (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you obviously don't understand German properly. Second, your interpretations violate WP:NOR. Third, participation of editors at the stubs is disappointingly low compared to the heated discussion here. Is looking up sources and writing proper content so boring? -- Matthead  Discuß   10:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Is Communist-era fiction more reliable?

In 2005, a quote from Wolfgang Schreyer's book "Eyes on the sky" was added to Area bombardment. This author is discussed above at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Wolfgang_Schreyer.E2.80.8E. The quote is still the basis of the article Bombing of Frampol started in 2004, and attempts had been made to add it to Strategic bombing during World War II. I wonder why users who worry very much about Nazi era German sources seem to be much less suspicious about communist era East German sources? -- Matthead  Discuß   17:43, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to provide reliable sources that prove this is a work of fiction; there is nothing to say that Schreyer has not written this book as a work of non-fiction. It is not uncommon for an author who has written works of fiction to also write reliable works of non-fiction.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Piotrus, for these two sentences of reliable non-fiction. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

No, its not. Particularly not with regard to the German-Polish history. The People's Republic of Poland was marked by "hostility towards Germany" (Polska mysil zachodnia, Tomczak, Poznan 1993). Characteristic for the political culture in the PR Poland was the "connection of radical Lefts and Polish nationalists" (Die fremde Stadt, Thum, München 2003, page 279), and the official perception of history was "nationalistic" (Thum, page 280). Responsible for this "perception of history was the historical science of Poland" (Thum, page 281), which worked as a "legitimation science" (Geschichtswissenschaft als Legitimationswissenschaft, Peter, Frankfurt/M 1997). The propaganda of the PR Poland "defended its territorial demands" (former Eastern Germany) with "rhetoric means and historiographical methods" which were similar to methods which were used by the German science and propaganda during the Nazi years (Thum, page 290). Karasek (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Plenty German books printed in Bundesrepublic contain anti-Polish propaganda, both before the unification and today. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I don';t see this as being primarily about Communists. I would be reluctant to make general rules about german-polish reciprocal claims of hostility in any period. I think we need to know the reputation and general acceptance of this particular book, and other sources for the incident. That even the most staunchly non-communist Pole might have a similar POV to a communist Pole over German actions with respect to Poland in 1939 would seem pretty obvious. If the key issue is whether it was a legitimate military target, that might be distorted in either direction just as in such disputes in all other wars. And as to the general question of whether Nazi propaganda can ever be right, see Katyn. DGG (talk) 04:52, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Katyn article is a very bad example for your thesis Nazi propaganda sometimes might be right. Of course, propaganda is not always lies, see the definition of propaganda. But you can't depend on it to document the facts. In case of Katyn the facts are documented by NKVD/KGB files, not by Nazi propaganda, not by Soviet propaganda and not by Allies propaganda. Actually, this article is very badly written and inclusion of Nazi propaganda in it distorts the basic historical facts. For example: it has been said in it that Wladyslaw Sikorski relying on Nazi propaganda tried to break the alliance of Soviet Union with Great Britain, however, it was the other way around. It was Winston Churchill who advertised it, while Sikorski, as the only one Polish leader who didn't buy it, tried to make peace with Soviets. That's why he had to die, because on Churchill's agenda there was no place for sovereign Poland after the war. Half a year after he was coveniently killed, Poland, without any interference was sold to Stalin in exchange for some concessions to British during the Tehran Conference 1943, and later at the Yalta Conference 1945. greg park avenue (talk) 16:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Frampol cannot be a military target in any political system and any war. Xx236 (talk) 12:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Polish Historiography

Perhaps some insight into the value or lack of value of Polish historical works from the era 1945 - 1990:

• Recent Polish Historiography on Polish-Ukrainian Relations during World War II and its Aftermath
• Between Continuity and Discontinuity: A few comments on the post-war development of Polish historical research
• Imagining Their Lands as Ours: Place Name Changes on Ex-German Territories in Poland after World War II
• Henry Cord Meyer. Drang nach Osten: Fortunes of a Slogan-Concept in German-Slavic Relations, 1849-1990 HNET review

--Stor stark7 19:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Stor stark7,

I just read 2. Between Continuity and ... 3. about Place Name Changes. Exellent descriptions

Misplaced Pages should have articles about these topics.

3. Speaks of Stalinization of Polish Historiography , that historians were quick to discover that the switch to Marxism was now a sine qua non precondition of their continued participation in scientific life.

Stefan Kieniewicz defined Polish Historiography in the 60s and 70s by a state of sui generis schizophrenia... official (Polish) historiography full of falsifications , equivocations and half-truths, of Doublespeak an so on...

That explains a lot. Seems to me, people in Poland try to clear their country of this type of Stalinist Polish historiography. Polish-Misplaced Pages bans the Cling-on Followers of Stalinist Polish Historiography, now they have saturated the ENglish Misplaced Pages. An Observer 17 July 2008

As I have indicated some time ago, both Polish and German historiographies were biased (Talk:Bloody_Sunday_(1939)#Polish.2FCommunist). It is obvious that Polish historiography is as biased towards German as German is towards Poland, and when using one side's sources in reviewing their history, such bias should be controlled for. For more about German historiography, see for example the article on Historikerstreit. The problem, of course, lies not in the historiographies - but in the editors, who believe that their favourite side's historiography is perfect, and the other side's work is nothing but propaganda.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"It is obvious that Polish historiography is as biased towards German as German is towards Poland." While possibly true, this is not true simply by assertion. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

All national historiographies are biased. Just see historiography and nationalism. Or this book--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are. My objection was to the implication that they are all "equally" biased, which implies that some form of NPOV requires equal representation. This is not the case. --Relata refero (disp.) 23:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is possible to rank bias in national historiographies. Things that cannot be ranked are more or less presumed equal. Anyway, this discussion veers of to pointless semantics, I am afraid. The bottom line is that both Polish and German historiographies have their biases, and a common part of it is the Polish-German history. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It remains possible that certain historiographies are more mainstream than others; that "German" or "Polish" sources may use more modern techniques as part of their historiograpic projects; and several other possibilities. Which is why a "ranking" per se might not be possible, but that does not at all mean that sources are to be weighed equally because of our opinion about which historiography they are part of. That would mean, for example, that some might say our most reliable sources are "Western" in historiographic orientation, and thus should be balanced. This is unacceptable, which is why focusing on historiographies rather than reliability here is a mistake. --Relata refero (disp.) 23:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I second that. Historiography is hardly a reliable source, especially if it's coming from the so called new historians attached to the countries previously involved in the conflict. But old records are reliable sources, even if these came from KGB, Wehrmacht or Western agencies. greg park avenue (talk) 16:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

To answer Piotrus remark: there's a difference between the Polish historiography and Western German historiography: the Polish historiography was controlled by an authoritarian regime, the Western German historiography was not. The Western German historiography was and is marked by a wide range of thoughts and public debates. The historiography in all Communist states on the other hand, for example also Eastern Germany, acted as a legitimation science for these regimes. The historiography in Eastern Germany tried to construct a continuity between Thomas Müntzer, the Peasants' War and the GDR (and in the 80s tried it even with Prussia and Frederick the Great!), in Czechoslovakia the historiography tried to construct a everlasting antagonism between Czechs and Germans and interpreted almost every conflict in Bohemia (Hussites) this way, and the Polish historiography tried to explain the new borders with 1000 year old claims. I would therefore stay away from sources of that time when they address these topics, but otherwise accept them. Karasek (talk) 14:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Verifiable sources on List of best-selling music artists

This particular user Travelling Tragition claims both in the edit summary of List of best-selling music artists and in her/his discussion page that she/he could include only the name of the source which does not seem to have a web site through help of which users could verify the record sales figures of the artist T-Rex. Travelling Tragition claims that non-internet sources published by reliable sources could be used. I believe we should use sources which immediately could redirect users to those reliable sources claiming those sales figures. --Harout72 (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• Travelling Tragition is correct to say that sources which are not available online can be used and can be considered reliable sources. Not all books, newspapers, magazines, etc. are available online and some may never be, but they can be judged as reliable or not based on their own merits, not whether they are available on the Internet. However, it appears that in this particular case, the liner notes of a music album are being used as a source to establish the artist's career worldwide record sales. I would not consider the liner notes as a reliable source for this particular information (without further evidence that the liner notes really are reliable), due to the likelihood that the statement of total sales was based on record company hype and/or guesswork rather than actual statistical data. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• I find it baffling and disturbing that anyone would argue that non-internet references are inappropriate sources. The vast majority of scholarship and general reliable works are published in ink and paper. Thanks to the growing presence of inexpensive services like Questia, the need to (perish the thought) even leave the house and visit a physical library to verify such sources is steadily diminishing. Many online library services can even be accessed free of charge from home by university students and through local library services. Demanding internet-only sources is a drastic appeal to laziness and utter madness. Vassyana (talk) 23:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

of course non-internet sources can be used, but people using them should be prepared to give a page number and an exact quotation of the key point. But the question is not about published books, but really whether liner notes are an independent source for material on the music. I think this has come up many times before, and they are in the category of blurbs on book jackets--not really independent and reliable if contested or controversial. In some cases, though, they do provide the only available information, so I';d be prepared to be flexible in the interpretation here. DGG (talk) 04:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that for List of best-selling music artists, it's acceptable to use non-reliable or non-independent sources when there aren't any independent reliable sources available. Maybe the reason that there are no independent reliable sources to establish that a particular artist had sales of 50 million recordings is that the artist has not, in fact, had sales of 50 million. Admittedly, a review of the talk page suggests that some editors disagree with me on this point. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 13:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

FAIR.org

Thanks! --TexasDex ★ 15:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to decide whether Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting would qualify as a valid source in the article on Jesse Helms. They seem to have a reputation for of being progressive and targeting right-leaning news bias, but they don't have a reputation for inaccuracy that I can see. There's one almost trivial thing in the "errors" section, and one would think if there were any substantial issues they would be widely publicized. However I want consensus whether it's acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages. --TexasDex ★ 21:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I would be very reluctant to use them alone for controversial material about Helms, even though no longer a question of BLP. They can certainly be used as a source for their views, or even for liberal views in general. Sop just what is it you want to use? DGG (talk) 04:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I was hoping to support the quote

The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that has thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic and commerce and interfere with other men's rights. -- television interview, 1963

It appears both in a fair.org article and a New York Times article which I've cited. I have a troublesome user who disputes the NYT article (that's a whole 'nother story), so I suppose he's unlikely to accept fair.org as a source. I was thinking both together might be more persuasive and acceptable for a reasonable editor, although I doubt the user in question would be receptive. --TexasDex ★ 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The only practical question is whether the Times cited out of context, for which you need to find the original speech, & see whether it was made in response to some events in 1963. And it is reasonable to mention the date. You're certainly right that someone who wont accept the NYT as objective won't accept fair.org. DGG (talk) 16:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering, what exactly do you mean "it is reasonable to mention the date"? Are you referring to the age of the reporter, who (the user keeps pointing out) was too young to have witnessed it personally? Or do you mean the year of the quote should be mentioned in the article to give context? The latter is probably true, his comments are most likely in the context of civil-rights protests, so I suppose they did "clog the streets" but that doesn't reflect all that much better on him. There would have to be quite some context to change the racist implications of that quote, but the actual tape is probably going to be very hard to find. I've contacted the NYT reporter via email, (Kevin Sack, two-time Pulitzer prize winner) but I don't expect a personal response. --TexasDex ★ 16:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I mean it is necessary to emphasise that this was said in 1963, a good while ago, and represented his views at the time. Agreed, the interview sounds like it probably in response to some news event, and it shjould be said what the news event was. The odds are that there is a quotation of it elsewhere that the NYT used. DGG (talk) 16:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The NYT is a better source than FAIR. Your arguments in favour of the source on the talk page are convincing. You don't need to dig out where NYT got it from. Even if they quoted it out of context that is their problem. As DGG says, you should make sure it is crystal clear that the reported words were from 1963. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism

More opinions please about this edit and this source. The author is a political scientist. This is a self-published source and my concern is that the author's normal area of research is into constitutional politics and the self-published document seems to be an isolated venture into a completely different sub-field of the discipline. The discussion on the article talk page is not just about whether the source is usable at all the in article but also about whether it supports a statement in the lead that the petition in question is "an appeal to authority". Itsmejudith (talk) 09:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

It really does need further editors to be involved here. I only went to the article after a call was made either here or on WP:FTN. I've been rapped over the knuckles for incivility now. I'm withdrawing from this article for the foreseeable future. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Which is precisely how everyone else outside a certain set of editors winds up after encountering those articles.... Relata refero (disp.) --18:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Political scientists are not the best authorities on Darwinism anyway... seems unreliable to me. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:32, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, you don't need a political scientist to see that a petition of scientists/purported scientists/names vaguely connected with science is an appeal to authority. Of course it is. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

(i) A reliable source was demanded for that claim a while back, so yes, we do need somebody. (ii) As the issue of 'appeals to authority' is more a rhetorical/political issue than a scientific one, it is not unreasonable to cite a political scientist on this -- especially when the aims of the ID movement in promoting this petition are political (to get ID, in some shape or form, into the classroom). Hrafn_Stalk 19:05, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

You're overcooking it. Of course it's an appeal to authority. That doesn't need to be stated. Any reader can work that out for themselves. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 19:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now I'm starting to get worried about ID articles. Particularly after my experience with Jonathan Wells (intelligent design advocate) yesterday. Folks, you are killing the goose that has laid the golden eggs. Relata, Judith, and myself are all reasonable people, not Bible Belt nutters, and if we think something is wrong there's a good chance it is. Material such as "The Discovery Institute presents the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint" is not only tautologous but also non-neutral, I'm afraid. Particularly when cited to this source, which isn't really good enough. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

And, no, the material removed here wasn't good enough either. In fact, the whole article is very shoddy and a gigantic case of violating Number 44. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi, don't you think that the Jonathan Wells article is still a BLP violation? We've both read a lot of articles on exceedingly controversial people, and they didn't ought to read like that. They ought to read "X is an American author who writes about Y. He was in a public controversy with Z" and so on through a sourced chronological outlining of the controversy to the bibliography. I note that there is a proposal to merge the article on the author with that of the text for which he is notable. Is there a statement anywhere that this is a desirable procedure? I'm thinking of V.T. Rajshekar and Dalit Voice for example. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course it's a BLP vio. A massive one. C'mon, BLP fanatics, get over here! Where are you when we need you? Scared, I suspect. Really, this non-biography, which is just wholly devoted to proving how stupid he is, needs massive cutting down to the nub, or, alternatively, merging with something else. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 19:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah good luck with that. I note that Jonathan Wells info box contains his name, his affiliation with a nefarious intelligent design pushing organization hellbent on world domination, and an equally nefarious "cult" group -- Unification Church. Its so nice to see that Misplaced Pages functions to its purposes so well -- labeling possibly dangerous elements of American society. That's what the encyclopedia is for right? Its also nice to see that "uninvolved" editors who claim to have BLP concerns are still treated with complete hostility and suspicion on these pages -- as it should be since no one could possibly be an outsider on this one. Please note I've not used the word "cabal" once and I also request anyone incapable of reading the appropriate sections as facetious to please not get on my case.PelleSmith (talk) 20:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

PelleSmith, you're displaying shocking bias and intolerance. A living person proudly proclaims his allegiance to a religious view presented as science and agreed with by a high percentage of the American population, according to their figures, and his religious faith in a well known religious leader. As editors we should not be describing these as "nefarious", and must accept their assertions of aims of intellectual world domination as being sincere and understandable. Your attitude would create severe BLP problems if implemented, and I must ask you to accept what reliable sources state about these individuals and their own self-expressed aims without trying to impose your own feelings on the subject. . . dave souza, talk 00:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This is getting really confusing. Are you accusing Pelle of being a closet Moonie or a closet Moonie-exposer? Neither of these POVs must be imposed on any subject, I agree. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm utterly confused, but its most likely my fault for being "facetious" or perhaps more accurately "sarcastic". If Dave is being sincere then he clearly didn't understand that I have no bias against either Moonies or Intelligent Design advocates, and certainly don't find them either nefarious or threatening--nor do I even advocate using terms like "cult" (hence the scare quotes added to the sarcasm). In fact I'm openly mocking those who act like beating these types of identifications into the ground is somehow our one true purpose at Misplaced Pages (that part I thought was rather abundantly clear). I find it completely ridiculous that this person's religious affiliation is one of three things mentioned in the infobox. Richard Dawkins info box doesn't even tell us he's an atheist, but somehow its important to tell the browsing non-reader that Jonathan Wells belongs to the Unification Church, that he works for DI and low and behold that his name is Jonathan Wells? Featuring the fact of his religious affiliation becomes particularly suspect given the main thrust of the entry. Heavens forbid someone saw the entry and didn't realize how religious he is. That's the one thing they need to know! -- that's sarcasm once again. Besides my obviously cherry picked example of Dawkins which does not do this, seriously how common is it to feature someone's "religious beliefs" in an info box? Dave, I also don't appreciate the counter argument that we should not judge people based upon their identifications with ID or with certain religious groups when those highlighting these facts clearly are and do judge them in that capacity. You've told me several times now that you do not -- wonderful and I'm really happy for you -- but that is certainly not true across the board, and loading entries with certain types of information is clearly done purposefully to make a point. I guess I'm saying spare me. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 03:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

A minor correction: Dawkins' box actually does say he's known for "Advocacy of atheism and rationalism". Goodness knows I'd raise "holy hell" if that wasn't the case, he's a hero of mine for precisely that... - Merzbow (talk) 06:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I should read closer ... but what you point out illustrates an important distinction--and this is just the kind of distinction that anyone who cares about being sensitive to BLPs will take seriously. We aren't told that Dawkin's personal "beliefs" are atheistic, but that he is known for "advocating atheism". If Wells is known for promoting Unification theology (etc.), then that is another matter altogether, but then it should be stated as such. Currently it simply seems that his religious beliefs are conveniently highlighted so that readers will "get the picture" on where his various other beliefs are coming from. Indeed the main thrust of the essay that is his entry bares this out quite clearly as it anchors itself in the connection between his Unification beliefs and his ID arguments. Is the lesson here that it is OK to write essays about people in order to highlight certain aspects of their lives, and then to use the infoboxes in order to tell browsers only the "essential facts" that support our essays? I say it isn't, and while there is no way I'm going to edit these entries and am desperately trying to stay off of their talk pages as well, those who are regulars there should be welcoming people with BLP concerns who may see the larger picture here.PelleSmith (talk) 11:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

If you had read the article you would have noticed that Wells has written "extensively on Unification theology and taught from time to time at the Unification Theological Seminary", that he is "has written on the subject of marriage within the Unification Church and has been called a 'Unification Church marriage expert' by church sources" and was on the UTS board for a time. This clearly places him as a prominent figure in the UC community. Far from being 'conveniently highlighted', religion is the core of Wells' life -- from which all else flows. To omit it would be to leave a gaping hole in the article. Your claims of strategic mention are therefore spurious, as well as a failure to assume good faith. Hrafn_Stalk 05:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Except I clearly recognized all of those "facts" in my comment (e.g. connecting his Unification affiliation with his beliefs about ID) so you're pretty off base in suggesting I didn't read the entry. I note also the irony of accusing me of "bad faith" that comes with said suggestion of not having read the entry. You also fail conveniently to deal with the actual point, which is that mentioning someone's "beliefs" is not the same as establishing a notable fact about what they do in life (the difference between the entries of Dawkins and Wells ). It also seems ludicrously UNDUE when it is one of three things mentioned in the infobox--other than his name and his affiliation with DI. Lastly you use the entry itself as justification of the infobox, which oddly enough is precisely to the point of my criticism. The entry is an essay structured to highlight one point, and the infobox conveniently reflects this point. Thanks for reaffirming that. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 10:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify -- the notion that I might be asking to have his religious affiliation "omitted" from the entry is a straw man, perhaps unintentional on your part, but it isn't based in any observable fact as I've asked for nothing of the sort. Noting UNDUE attention to certain details, lack of attention to others, is not the same as claiming that the former are entirely irrelevant. This man is clearly very involved with the Unification Church, with its theology and with its practices. It is still highly unconventional and rather strange to mention his "religious beliefs" as one of three facts about him in an infobox.PelleSmith (talk) 10:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I know I started this thread here, but would it not be better to continue now it on the article talk page or BLP noticeboard? Many thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the digression. However, as seems to be the developing case with yourself, I have been thoroughly scared away from engaging discussion at these entries after some rather unpleasant experiences (in my case at Talk:Rosalind Picard). But you're right, this isn't the appropriate venue. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 12:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

PelleSmith, your position is ludicrous. Wells' involvement in the UC is not "UNDUE attention to certain details", it is arguably the most central aspect of his life -- utterly pervasive in its influence. Would you likewise argue that Pope Benedict XVI's belief in Catholicism is a mere detail? If one had to sum up Wells by stating two things about him, they would be his commitment to Unificationism & his opposition to evolution. Can you find any other aspect of his life that RSs give greater emphasis to? If not, then how can giving these two points prominence of placement possibly be WP:UNDUE? Hrafn_Stalk 14:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion moved: User_talk:Hrafn#Move_discussion_from_RS.2FN, per IMJ well taken point about relevance.PelleSmith (talk) 18:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Warriors of Legend

Is this a reliable source for discussion of Sailor Moon? It seems to be, but one editor suggested that its being unauthorized might mean it requires an extra qualifier, "such as is done with Biographies to note 'so and so said...'". Any thoughts? --Masamage ♫ 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It isn't reliable, not because it is unauthorised but because it is self-published. These two different things. I note that the book has had some favourable reviews, but in internet publications that themselves don't seem to be reliable. If you can find a mainstream media source that says that this book is accurate, or factual, then perhaps it might be considered RS. Even with the addition "so and so said" this is not an ideal source. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This article at Anime News Network (which is considered reliable) suggests that Genvid was involved with the book's production. That seems compelling to me. --Masamage ♫ 04:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, scratch that. I mixed them up with Geneon. So no good there, but does the ANN mention help? --Masamage ♫ 04:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages cannot be use as a source for itself, its part of our policies (see WP:V/WP:RS). However, references used in that article, once verified, can be used for other articles.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I mean the book itself, not the article about it. :P --Masamage ♫ 04:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Are interviews published "Aint It Cool News" and "Torn" reliable.

These interviews are self-promotional, and serve a public relations purpose. Whilst no doubt the statements are those of the people being quoted, the sources fail independence and lack journalistic rigor and cover matters which would be seen to be trivial by more reputable sources. and . The question came up after some source canvassing at The Hobbit (2009 film). --Davémon (talk) 18:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

• My response is directed only to AICN. The Hobbit question refers to the interview with Guillermo del Toro cited at The Hobbit film duology, which appeared on Ain't It Cool News at . I see no problem whatsoever with the reliability of that particular interview; I don't think there is any doubt that it is a report of an actual interview with Guillermo del Toro, the director of the upcoming Hobbit films. I don't really see anything in that interview I would want to use in an article, but if del Toro had said something like "The Hobbit will start filming in June 2009 in New Zealand", I would have been happy to cite that to the AICN interview. Here we see a book from MIT Press which cites an AICN interview with William Gibson; if the site's interviews are good enough for an academic publisher they should be good enough for us. Admittedly, many of the participants in AICN interviews are participating in them to promote their projects, and I wouldn't just take the word of the interviewee for the truth when more objective sources are available. For example, if a director tells AICN his last movie grossed $200 million worldwide, we should not just take his word for it as that sort of data can be looked up in reliable independent sources. But if the interviewee is talking about something within his or her knowledge and there is no reason to believe their statement is inaccurate, we can cite an AICN interview where it seems appropriate to do so. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your well researched and constructed reply. I'm still not convinced that wikipedia should be using this kind of infomercial as a source, but can see your logic and shan't be discouraging others in the future. By the way, for a good deconstruction of the manipulation of fandom by such sources : --Davémon (talk) 21:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Affidavits

A civil case was initiated in Queeensland, Australia in 2003. One of the respondents, a journalist, filed various affidavits. After losing the case and facing ruin, he filed a final affidavit with the court 16 months after the close of the case disavowing his previous statements, including a feature length article in a reputable Sunday newspaper insert magazine, Good Weekend. The affidavit was accepted by a clerk, but presumably had no bearing on the case which had already closed. PDF of affidavit The claim is made in Misplaced Pages that the affidavit, in which he retracts all of this previous comments including the magazine article, invalidates the article he wrote even though the publisher never issued a retraction. PDF of article Editors would also like to use the affidavit as a source for the actions of 3rd parties, named and unnamed.

The case received some notice in the Australian press and journalism circles, but the affadavit is not mentioned in any of the articles. The Queensland court does not have the documents online and charges a search fee of $12.50, a first page copy fee of $1.70, and $.50 for additional pages, plus postage. However the document is hosted on the website belonging to an American affiliate of the organization that brought the suit. For a sample of the types of outrageous statements that affidavits in civil cases can include see The Smoking Gun website:

In my opinion, the affidavit is an isolated primary source effectively available only from an unreliable, partisan source, and of questionable value since it was filed after the close of the case, was never reviewed in court, and has never been mentioned in any secondary source. It would not be an acceptable source for anything. Nor is it sufficient, in my opinion, to negate the magazine article published in a reliable source. Any other thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Will's suggestion that the journalist was "facing ruin" and that the affidavit "was accepted by a clerk" is his OR that might give the impression that this affidavit is some how compromised. It isn't. It is an attested court document and the journalist says in the affidavit that "since the litigation I have had a chance to reflect... and have come to realize my involvement was misguided...I believe I owe an apology" which he does in the affidavit. Many sources used in Misplaced Pages require editors to pay a fee or subscription to access them or buy the book, magazine or paper in question. This is no reason to discount them as sources. The affidavit is not, as Will suggests "an isolated primary source effectively available only from an unreliable, partisan source", it is readily available from the Supreme Court of Queensland, Australia (the highest court in that state) for anyone who wants it. Will is also incorrect when he says it "has never been mentioned in any secondary source", it is quoted extensively for two pages in a recently written, best selling biography on Rawat published in several languages by established and reputable publishers. It does not contain "outrageous statements" and its use is bound by normal Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. The O.J. Simpson article uses court documents in a similar way. In short, it is a high quality source of information about the court case and the activities that precipitated it.Momento (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected about a detail or two. But the principle remains true, I believe: that affidavits are not reliable sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a "detail" when you incorrectly claim the affidavit is "an isolated primary source effectively available only from an unreliable, partisan source" and "has never been mentioned in any secondary source". It undermines your whole argument. There are dozens of Misplaced Pages articles that use affidavits as sources and link to them.Momento (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I am still thinking about the various implications. But should we set much store by the fact that the paper never issued a retraction for the article? Looking at the dates, the affidavit in which the journalist states he made the story up was made about three years after the article appeared (affidavit signed April 2005, story appeared August 2002), and only filed (see court stamp and court file summary) on 9/1/2007, i.e. another two years later. Would papers print a retraction when so much time has elapsed between an article's publication and the coming to light of information that casts doubt on the article's accuracy? I honestly can't see that they would; even more so where the article, as in the present case, only appeared in a weekend supplement rather than the paper itself. At least I can't recall ever reading a similar retraction relating to an article that far back in time. Jayen466 11:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

On the general principle of affidavits, I believe that in general we regard court documents as primary sources, even rulings made by judges. There has been previous discussion about this. Affidavits are sworn and presented to the court but normally there is the chance for cross-examination, and this has not happened in this case. Maybe there are other articles that cite affidavits as sources, but they may in those cases be backing up a good secondary source. The general principle must be: regard as primary. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at core principles here. Affidavits aren't vetted or approved by any third party. They're self-published. A person who self-publishes information may swear to its truth, the self-publishing may happen through court papers rather than a book or a web site, but those details don't change anything . Since affidavits are self-published, they can be used only in cases where any other self-published source could be. In an article about this individual, thiss person' affidavit can be used to present their opinion or point of view. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

According to NOR - "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source". In many Misplaced Pages articles the affidavits stand on their own without additional sources. As long as we quote the affidavit verbatim, it can be used.Momento (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

But it's not a primary source. It's a self-published source. It's exactly the same as if he had posted information on his personal web site and aimply added the words "I swear this is true." The only thing a notary attests is that he wrote it, but having proof that he wrote it doesn't turn self-published information into a primary source. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB clarifies that self-published sources can be used only to provide information about the author. This would cover a statement like "The author later wrote an affidavit retracting this..." As long as we make only a statement about what the author did (wrote the affidavit), we're within WP:SELFPUB, particularly since an affidavit lets us be reasonably sure of who wrote it. Going any further would take us outside WP:SELFPUB. We can't present the information as relevant to truth of the article, only as information about the author. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

According to NOR primary sources are sources very close to the origin of a particular topic. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident is an example of a primary source. This affidavit is an eyewitness account of the activities it reports on.Momento (talk) 00:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The major strength of affidavits as a source of reliable information is that to declare a false one risks a criminal conviction (at least this is the case in Australia where the affidavit was sworn). For that reason far more care is given to making an affidavit compared to providing information to a newspaper reporter where there is no penalty for lying. Affidavits are high quality source for people's opinions. But as was said above, editors should not make ‘analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found’ in an affidavit. Verbatim transcribing is the way to go otherwise any statements made about the affidavit may suffer from interpretation. Terry MacKinnell (talk) 05:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the affidavit was sworn in Thailand. In the same case another party filed an affidavit retracting his previous statements, then swore a second affidavit retracting his first affidavit. The judge discuounted the second one, but I don't believe he penalized the party for filing a false affidavit. The affidavit in question was never reviewed in court, so its truthfulness hasn't been tested. I'd also note that in the U.S., at least, affidavits in civil cases, especially divorce cases, are notoriously outlandish. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Just for accuracy's sake, from the court record it appears that the affidavit was filed by the applicant rather than the respondent (i.e. not filed by Macgregor). Macgregor had, however, issued an apology to Rawat and the premies online a few months before he made the affidavit -- it's here if you haven't seen it yet. Jayen466 09:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Elan Vital itself claims that anything written on the ex-premie forum, to which you linked, Jayen, is not credible, they claim that posts are written by anonymous persons, most of whom are insane and/or criminals, and that all are members of a hate group. Some credibility you're providing here! LOL! In fact, Elan Vital goes out of its way on its FAQ to charge that Tom Gubler and John MacGregor are criminals, so that makes it even more hilarious that the adherents place so much credibility on this affidavit, when this NRM went out of its way to ruin the man's life. Sorry, Jayen, there is no way to prove who wrote that "apology," and it's not a public apology by any stretch. Sylviecyn (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

That letter by Macgregor says it all.Momento

talk) 02:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• It was a long, protracted lawsuit brought upon a journalist. There are plenty of reasons to assert this affidavit was given under duress. This ABC Australia Radio National] broadcast interview gives some more context about the immense pressure which the litigants placed upon John MacGregor. This interview was conducted in March 2004. Sylviecyn (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The affidavit in question was rejected for use as evidence by the judge in a defamation lawsuit in the California Supreme Court. The affidavit in question defames named private (not public) persons. Two are Misplaced Pages editors who edit with their real names. Another is a civil rights attorneys from San Francisco, who was the plaintiff in the above-mentioned defamation suit, the result of which settlement resulted in removal of defamation against her from the defendant's personal website. Another person named in the affidavit is a criminal defense attorney from Canada. I think great care must be taken in accepting this document for use on Misplaced Pages given it was rejected by a U.S. court and contains potential libel and defamation. Sylviecyn (talk) 11:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: To clarify, the affidavit had been presented for admission as evidence in the above-mentioned lawsuit by the defendant in the defamation case brought by the San Francisco attorney (the plaintiff), who later settled and as a result the defamation about about her wasremoved from a personal website of the defendant, Geoff Staker. Sylviecyn (talk) 11:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And FYI, Tom Gubler was convicted of contempt of court for breaching the undertakings he gave to the court and was given a suspended sentence.

Regardless of the reliability, accuracy or truthfullness of an affidavet, an affidavet is a primary source of information, and in this case it is also in the public domain. If another primary or secondary source of information comments upon this particular affidavet then it is also a legitimate source of information outside of the opinion of any editor. The exclusion of information provided by an affidavet in the public domain must either be a case of censorship or misleading information by exclusion. If Wiki policy allows a primary source of information such as this affedavit then to exclude it based on the mere personal opinion of some editor(s) goes against Wiki policy. Terry MacKinnell (talk) 23:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:PSTS requires us to be very circumspect in our use of primary sources. This particular primary sourec has a troubled provenance, unlike many. I'm not aware of any articles that use affidavits from civil cases as sources. If that's correct then we'd be making an exception to use tihs, rather than the other way around. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• Much care and consideration must be taken when using any court case document (even if it's a public record) that may contain possible libel against any private individuals who have nothing to do with the Misplaced Pages article. Private individuals are named in this document. And please, let's not be naive. Just because someone swore an affidavit doesn't make it true. It happens every day of the week. This is a slippery slope for Misplaced Pages. Consider divorce cases, for instance, or other defamation cases. Consider what the parties to such cases might say about each other in sworn affidavits. Does Misplaced Pages want to get into the business of allowing anything into an article based on it's status as a public record? I'd advise strongly against it. Also, it's not my opinion that the Judge in the San Francisco, California defamation case refused to accept this affidavit into a U.S. lawsuit. That was the opinion of the court. (I apologize -- I would provide a link to the case documents in the SF case, but the website is currently down.) I think extremely great caution needs to be used in this particular situation because Misplaced Pages is a corporation located in the U.S., not Australia, and two of the individuals named in this affidavit are attorneys. The plaintiff in the San Francisco defamation case is named in this affidavit. For all intents and purposes, she won her case, because the settlement reached provided her the relief from the defamation she was seeking by bringing the lawsuit. And by the way, the Judge who presided over this case in which this affidavit arises, also referred to Prem Rawat a "cult leader," therefore, one could argue that the use of the other public records in the same case is permissible, in order to prove that Prem Rawat is a cult leader, based on the logic being used that this affidavit is part of a public record. It's my opinion that using documents such as affidavits on Misplaced Pages is sliding down a very steep and slippery slope. Sylviecyn (talk) 20:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Curse of Billy Penn Gentleman's Agreement Source

On the Curse of Billy Penn, there was an unsourced reference to the gentlemen's agreement not to build any structure taller than the statue of William Penn on the top of the Philadelphia City Hall. An anonymous user recently posted a reference to a source that would take care of this problem (). However, in the course of correcting the format of the citation, I read the source page itself. The page is itself adapted from Misplaced Pages, and the Misplaced Pages article article on William Penn (on which the page is based) does not itself seem to have a source related to this Gentlemen's Agreement. Is it appropriate for a Misplaced Pages article to site as a source a website that itself references another Misplaced Pages article? Nutiketaiel (talk) 11:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Qualified no. If someone is staking an academic reputation on the reliability of a publication and just use (and quite properly cite) the wiki article for convenience as organizational inspiration but personally vet the facts, then sure. If someone just needs a quick overview and cribs it off of here, then they are not adding reliability over the wiki text.

Here is a WSJ column that does the same thing. We sure are convenient for verifying the existence of rumors. A number of less reliable sources repeat the story of the "curse", so the story appears to be locally well known and not a hoax. This AP article says that they are named the Ungentlemanly Towers in An Architectural Guidebook to Philadelphia (ISBN 0879058900), but my library does not have a copy. - Eldereft (cont.) 15:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your assistance. I will remove the reference for the time being, until I can find a more suitable one to replace it. Fortunately, I will be going back home to Philadelphia for vacation in the beginning of August, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find a source in one of the local libraries that will be suitable. Nutiketaiel (talk) 11:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

MEMRI, again

In wandering around wiki I have noticed that there are editors claiming that MEMRI is an unreliable source, ( for example: ) and are using this archived discussion as justification. In reading the discussion I do not pick up a consensus to that effect, nor is there a "resolved" tag on it. Although criticism of MEMRI exists, that does not automatically make it unreliable, as for example we have a BBC Watch which finds errors and bias in the BBC, and a similar site for the New York Times, ( ie Timewatch ); and while it speaks to controversy and POV issues neither have so far affected the reliability standard at Wiki for either the NY Times or the BBC. In thousands of translated articles there has only been a question on the exact translation of one or two words, one of which was in a written transcript and the other was a transcript taken from a film. In my view, this demonstrates a high degree of reliability. Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Look, these processes are not always black and white. There are many sources which, whilst not being banned from being used as sources, should generally be avoided. Using MEMRI as a source for any controversial claim relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should, in my opinion, be avoided. MEMRI is clearly a party in the conflict, and their statements and reports should be seen as representing one partisan position. Using their quotes of their translations should be avoided, since there is a history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material. This is not the fact that there is criticism against MEMRI, like there is on NYT or BBC, that is the problem in itself with using MEMRI as a source, it is the role MEMRI plays in the conflict. --Soman (talk) 15:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please source your contention that "there is a history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material"? Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you believe the passage "MEMRI is a non-profit, non-partisan research organization. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East"? Does MEMRI exist is a political vacuum? The intent of MEMRI is quite obvious from its actions, to portray the Arabs in a negative light, thus indirectly supporting Israeli positions. A few examples, , , and are some commentaries on the role of MEMRI. MEMRI doesn't just offer translations, they also create news spins. The way they handled the Mickey Mouse story wasn't just accidental, it was a planned manuever in a propaganda war. I'm not saying that MEMRI can never be used as a source, but using their material for any controversial claim is not a good practice. --Soman (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It appears you cannot source your contention that MEMRI has a "history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material." Will you strike it? Your first two sources are opinion pieces by the same person, the third is blog quoting from someone called "Professor As’ad Abu Khalil" but not listed as such on his blog, The Angry Arab News Service. The Angry Arab News got its transcript from someone named "Anonymous." Your final source is an opinion piece by Lawrence Swaim, a staff writer for what claims to be "The largest Muslim newspaper in California" and quoting Norman Finkelstein comparing MEMRI to the Nazis. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

There is consensus across several articles that advocacy organisations, of whatever bent, are best avoided as sources and are not reliable. If they reprint or extract material from otherwise reliable sources, those original sources are to be checked for accuracy of quotes and/or translation and to ensure that context is provided. MEMRI is not in any way singled out. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that probably advocacy organisations are not always reliable sources. But where has it been determined that MEMRI is an advocacy group and not what it claims to be, ie "independent and non-partisan" , doing what it says it does: "providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian,Turkish, Urdu-Pashtu media?" I agree that it also does "original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East" and as with any "original analysis," we are talking opinion, and it is buyer beware. But the translations should be considered reliable. As New York Times reporter Steven Erlanger says, "No one disputes their translations." Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, the NYT is clearly wrong; I recall reading a very critical Guardian article about MEMRI. In fact, looking at the Middle East Media Research Institute#Bias section of the article, it's evident that MEMRI has come in for considerable criticism. This goes back to the criteria set out in WP:V that "articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." If MEMRI does not have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy then I think it would pretty clearly be excluded as a reliable source. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Clearly MEMRI DOES have a wide "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", except among those who do not like what they hear. If you claim otherwise, among other things, you are in the position of saying the NYT Times is unreliable or POV. BTW, WP in its wildest dreams would be lucky to have MEMRI's reputation for accuracy!

The NYT article is titled 'In Gaza, Hamas’s Insults to Jews Complicate Peace'. If that's one's point of view on the prevailing situation in Gaza, well then there's not much to discuss. Obviously, there are people do don't trust MEMRI's 'translation service', albeit these people might be bloggers, political divergents, Arabs or Muslims. I don't really know what is the purpose of this discussion. I think the wikipedians who are critical of MEMRI won't issue a carte blanche for future usage of MEMRI as a reference, and those who are already convinced that Arabs are by default evil hatemongers will probably continue to believe that MEMRI is an eternal fountain of npov wisdom. It becomes a bit abstract to discuss this without discussing a concrete case and a specific wiki article. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion any future use of MEMRI in a controversial subject will invite further discussion. Such are the dynamics of the debate on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. --Soman (talk) 20:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Soman, will you strike what you said "Using their quotes of their translations should be avoided, since there is a history of conscious tampering and misrepresentation of the original material," since you cannot back that up? Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I won't strike any of my comments at this point, it is my understanding that my comment(s) still holds. We apparently have different judgements on this. --Soman (talk) 08:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It is pretty commonly accepted that many media review organizations, such as MEMRI and FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting), are advocacy groups. Their reputation for accuracy and fact-checking varies widely depending on the particular group. Even the most accurate of such groups have a strong tendency to provide a very one-sided presentation of the facts and issues. They generally should not be used to cite bald assertions, but are certainly appropriate for representing their perspective. They should also be explicitly attributed in-prose when used. As examples, it would be appropriate to use MEMRI to represent the neocon perspective of the Middle East and similarly appropriate to use FAIR as representative of the progressive view of domestic U.S. politics. The presence of a point of view or bias in a source does not make it unreliable or unsuitable for use. However, some caution is required when using such sources to avoid inappropriate emphasis of those views. Vassyana (talk) 02:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I do have a problem with the assumption that MEMRI is a media review organisation or an advocacy group, particularly on grounds that "it is pretty commonly accepted." MEMRI translates from Arab media what Arab media has to say to each other and the Arab 'street'. As long as there is no one else that does it, MEMRI offers an important and valuable service. I hope you would check them out yourself, and decide if they "provide a very one-sided presentation of the facts and issues." Here, for instance, is the latest economic news from the MEMRI Economic Blog (Highlights of the latest Arab census). Do you find the presentation slanted? The controversies surrounding MEMRI (translation) have basically to do with 2 articles, and the translation of a couple of words. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Translation is not a neutral science, and MEMRI is not a neutral conveyor of political commentary. The notion that MEMRI simply 'translates' for the sake of translation itself is a quite naive pov. But to repeat what i've said before, any use of MEMRI as a source for a controversial claim is bound to be questioned on the ground of WP:RS, but there is no ban on using MEMRI as a source overall. I have no reason to question the authencity of the translation of the Sharq al-awsat article from the MEMRI Economic Blog and wouldnt protest its usage in relevant article. --Soman (talk) 08:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"As long as there is no one else that does it" - that's almost certainly mistaken. BBC Monitoring makes translations every day. I believe the CIA has a similar service. These outputs are used mainly by professional researchers and sometimes MEMRI may be more convenient, but BBC or CIA translations can be regarded as reliable. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I was going to make the same point about BBC Monitoring (yes, it is ultimately funded by UK government departments, but it is broadly independent in most of what it does). The problem with MEMRI is that even thought it claims itself to be non-partisan, it appears to have a specific, political agenda which is focused on finding fault with what is said in the Arab world and other predominantly Muslim parts of Asia. That can feed through into a) what out of the zillions of words published every day in the Middle East they choose to translate and highlight; and b) how they translate some of those words. Translation is frequently an inexact science, as past incidents relating to Ahmedinejad and Israel, and Tomorrow's Pioneers show (I know someone already linked to this). I guess the point is, as broadly agreed above and as with all sources of this type, it's not unreliable per se, but proceed with caution and make specific attribution when using it. --Nickhh (talk) 11:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Using the BBC in this context as more reliable than MEMRI is ludicrous. The BCC is notorious for its bias in relation to the middle east. See BBC's anti-Israel bias and BBC asks court to block Israel report and BBC fights to suppress internal report into allegations of bias against Israel and BBC mounts court fight to keep 'critical' report secret They even admit it themselves. We are biased, admit the stars of BBC News By what method are we to supposed to accept that their translation service is more reliable than MEMRI? I agree that MEMRI and all reliable translations should be used carefully and with attribution. Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm several points here - a) BBC Monitoring is a different organisation from the BBC (although ultimately part of it). It is not a broadcaster or media outlet, it is a monitoring and translation division; b) even the BBC proper is not "notorious" for its anti-Israel bias, it has merely been accused of it by some people, just as it has also been accused of pro-Israel bias; c) you do realise don't you that the Daily Mail has an ongoing campaign against the BBC for its supposed "liberal" bias?

For all its faults and mistakes, and however impossible it is to attain, the BBC - along with other UK broadcasters - does have impartiality as an objective which is enforceable by regulators. MEMRI and other advocacy groups do not. --Nickhh (talk) 14:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The claim that "MEMRI ...represent the neocon perspective of the Middle East" is a bit delusional, unless actual translations/reality are deemed to represent the 'neo-con' view. MEMRI highlights material from both moderates and extremists . Aversion to using MEMRI must stem from an aversion to facing reality. Perhaps if wp editors didn't have an aversion to using reliable sources, wp would be more reliable.Bcdea (talk) 14:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be taking for granted what people above are discussing and hoping to establish - ie, is MEMRI a reliable source in WP terms? MEMRI may not represent exactly the neocon perspective, but there's serious doubt as to whether it's an impartial, balanced and objective reviewer of the Middle East media. --Nickhh (talk) 14:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, we are not talking about reviewing anything. We are talking about using their translations, not their opinions. No one has proven their translations unreliable, or even cast "serious doubt" on them. Perhaps we should look at the "impartiality" and "balanced objectivity" of MEMRI's critics. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I find this conversation shocking. So far as I know, MEMRI is the only web-enabled English language source for translations of news and views from parts of the non-English speaking world. If MEMRI's translations get cut out for any reason other than they are consistently unreliable, then that's like censoring out speech from the non-English speaking world. I mean what hubris! Only English spoken here! You have got to kidding! Non-English speakers are just as important as English speakers. We should be thankful for MEMRI's translation services, and if people don't like MEMRI or if MEMRI is necessarily selective, then let them start their own consistent translation services. Cutting out MEMRI's translations is just wrong if they are consistently reasonably accurate. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

As to the review point, I meant that this is what their activities involve overall - ie they (presumably) scour various sources, and then choose what to translate and flag up after that. That counts as reviewing, and it's the selection of course which is highly significant. And serious doubt has been cast on how they operate generally, as well as on specific translations - see the Brian Whitaker and Juan Cole articles cited above, as well as recent comments by Ken Livingstone. You may of course disregard these opinions, but these are not fringe figures who have chosen to question or criticise MEMRI. Having said all that, I'm not quite sure what this debate is about now, or how it is in any way "shocking". No-one above has said we shouldn't use their translations here, or ought to be "cutting out". The consensus seems to be, even among those who are sceptical about MEMRI as an organisation, that it is OK to cite them subject to the usual caution, and so long as there is clear attribution. --Nickhh (talk) 08:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Newspapers choose what news to print, does that mean they are "reviewing"? To the complaint that their selection of material is not "representative" of the media from which they take it, I have yet to hear the case made. And if they publish a lot of anti-Israel or anti-U.S. or anti-Western Arab media, do you really suppose they had to scour to get it? ha! Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Good. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Website on the French GR hiking trails

How does the website www.gr-infos.com seem for information about the different French long-distance hiking trails? There is nothing on the website to say who authored it, but by the same token it doesn't seem to be promotional in any way (apart from generally promotional of hiking). I haven't spotted any errors on the site so far. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Any views? We need to use good sources in non-controversial articles too! Itsmejudith (talk) 10:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The most authoritative site on these paths is http://www.ffrandonnee.fr, the site of the Fédération Française de la Randonnée Pédestre (FFRP), which originated and maintained the paths, and is recognised by the relevant government departments (see the history section of the site). Unfortunately they don't have a path-by-path section on the site, but you can find out where all the paths are by using their topo-guide catalogue, which you can search by path number. You can also get a Michelin map of France with the GR system overlaid on it (see the catalogue at http://www.stanfords.co.uk). seglea (talk) 00:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian Media Watch (PMW)

Hi all,

This has already been discussed before (here), but at least one editor in an ongoing dispute does not believs the conclusion there to be significant (here).

The question is, can Palestinian Media Watch be used as a reliable source regarding the opinion of Palestinians?

Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 17.07.2008 08:11

PMW is used by reputable mainstream sources, as linked at the discussion going on on the linked article. I'm sorry, but if its credible enough for CNN and Reuters, saying it is not credible enough for Misplaced Pages is somewhat silly. We are presenting their opinion, not as fact but simply as the opinion of the source as instructed by WP:RS. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

RS's can quote PMW, but that does not mean PMW is an RS. Imad marie (talk) 08:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

If its reliable enough to be quoted by the first tier news organizations such as Reuters and CNN, it is blatantly silly to question it especially when we've carefully gone to the length of attributing the context to the source which fulfills the criteria of WP:RS. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I posted this here to get outside, un-involved opinions... Can you take a break for a few hours and let others weigh-in? Cheers and thanks, pedrito - talk - 17.07.2008 08:33

PMW is considered a WP:RS. We've had a few discussions on this before. In short, CNN and other major sources, believe they are RS and use their translations for reports.

Samples: The Washington Times,Washington Post,BBC,Reuters, Forbes,Jerusalem Post,Channel 2 (Israel),The New York Times.

With respect, Jaakobou 10:27, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoa. There's a number of misconceptions here. The first thing to note is the general principle as stated by Imad marie above. Just because Reuters or the Jerusalem Post publish information that they got from PMW doesn't make PMW a reliable source. The info has to go through those sources' fact-checking procedures first. If you or I phoned a news story through to the Jerusalem Post and they reported it would that make you or me RS in WP? I clicked on a couple of these links and the story did not in fact come directly from PMW. Apparently PMW posted a film on YouTube, then PETA picked it up, and the story reached the news agencies from PETA. That doesn't make PETA RS either. On the translation question see my post above in the MEMRI thread. In general, small web-only "Watch" organisations are unlikely to qualify as RS. They don't originate news but collate it, usually in line with a particular viewpoint. They don't have the fact-checking apparatus that is the main criterion in determining RS. In the case of the animal rights story, there is no sourcing problem, you simply source to a mainstream news outlet. There may be some other stories that PMW carries but are not picked up by any news agency, newspaper or broadcaster. In these cases notability will probably be a concern, but it is worth bringing them here for consideration on a case-by-case basis. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the case of a singular instance however, this is multiple, rival, independant news agencies repeatedly turning to PNW for material. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between using a source's material (e.g. translations, videos, etc...) and adopting their analysis (e.g. typical celebrations). What's contentious here is the use of their analysis. Cheers, pedrito - talk - 17.07.2008 13:52

Once again, such material can be used when it is explicitly labelled as such as this image was prior to Pedrito removing that from the image's accompanying text. For the record, I've stated explicitly that this image is replacable and have asked for suggestions of images which relate to the topic of the Palestinian celebrations but have yet to receive any serious response to my good faith attempt. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

What you describe, Kyaa, is the normal process of news-gathering, responding to press releases. The papers publish material originating from the McCain or Obama campaign teams even more frequently. The point is that their fact-checking teams stand between the original material and the reader. That's if we are discussing whether they are reliable as to facts. Now, in response to Pedrito, PNW's website is considered RS for description of its own views. In articles other than the PNW article itself, it just might sometimes represent an expression of a notable viewpoint. But there will almost always be a better source for that. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Please see my above comment to Pedro. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That comment seems to be missing some punctuation. But if you and Pedrito are discussing compromises, that's good. If the issue is the use of images, please make 100% sure that copyright questions are resolved. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Advanced Technology Attachment article, is citing the ATA spec re. solid state drives considered OR?

I am having extreme difficulty with editor Ramu50. Several times now (,, ) Ramu50 has deleted a simple statement of fact from this article, even though I provided a reference the first time I restored it.

Ramu50 correctly pointed out that that citation was difficult to reach (the ftp site required a login, although public credentials were provided elsewhere at , so I changed the cite to point to an open ftp server with a copy of the document. Still, this seems to be not enough as this form of the cite was in the article when Ramu50 deleted it the third time (at least, I may have missed a few).

Ramu50 claims that citing this document, even though it is the defining document of the article subject, is not sufficient and is "original research":

And let me ask you, is the primary document written by one author, yes it is. Just because it follows the association request doesn't mean it isn't one person viewpoint. One person viewpoint = original research.

(Well actually it's written by the T13 committee; edited by one person, but not written by one person.) In the same diff Ramu50 also says

Direct Quote doesn't mean anything, Misplaced Pages stated before that multiple statements from documents and adding your own conclusion is considered original research.

That would be a point if we were talking about "original synthesis". But I am not "adding my own conclusion". The specs expressly provide for solid state drives, they added the "CompactFlash Association feature set" expressly for support of certain aspects of solid state drives in ATA-4 (the earliest non-obsolete version):

6.13 CFA feature set: The CompactFlash Association (CFA) feature set provides support for solid state memory devices.
--from AT Attachment with Packet Interface Extension (ATA/ATAPI-4), section 6.13, page 36

There are many other details of the CFA feature set throughout that document and the later versions (ATA/ATAPI-5, etc.). And ever since ATA-2 (a much earlier, now obsolete version) they have also said

Traditionally, a device on the ATA interface has been a hard disk drive, but any form of storage device may be placed on the ATA interface provided it adheres to this standard.
--from AT Attachment Interface with Extensions (ATA-2), section 3.1.7, page 2

Ramu50 insists that these cites are not sufficient to support the notion that "solid state drives" are supported by ATA.

At one point Ramu50 added this confusing and completely unreferenced section to the article:

Ramu50 generally writes in a very confusing (to me, anyway) style which has made discussion on the talk page strenuous to say the least. (And in Ramu50's most recent responses Ramu50 has rearranged my responses, removing them from context. My most recent changes before this "unfactoring" can be seen here: ) But as best as I can gather, Ramu50's contention that solid state drives either are not, should not, or are not "really" supported by ATA is based on poorly referenced claims that they are unreliable, or that nonvolatile memory is not really designed for being attached to an ATA cable, and that therefore the ATA documents should not or do not support them for legal or civil liability reasons. Ramu50 gives no evidence for this strange theory. There is weak evidence offered for unreliability but ATA documents do not include any requirements for reliability.

Ramu50 has also claimed that solid state drives are only mentioned in the ATA documents due to "pressure" put on the ANSI T13 committee by the drive industry, but the only "evidence" Ramu50 offered for that claim was a "buyer's guide" dated 2003 (five years after ATA-4!) and a "Concept White Paper" on SSDs that said absolutely nothing to support such a claim.

I am aware that the ATA documents are a primary source here, but I believe that my citation meets the standards of WP:PRIMARY as I am not at all making an "interpretive claim." The issue in question is the issue of whether ATA supports solid state disk drives. The ATA documents (all versions ATA-4 and later, which is all non-obsolete versions) specifically make provisions for solid state drives and also allow them by inclusion as per the above quote frm ATA-2 ("any form of storage device"). I believe that any reasonable person, even not a subject matter expert, would agree that this supports the notion that solid state drives are supported by the ATA standards.

Please advise. --Jeh (talk) 09:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Your post is rather long and detailed. I don't claim to follow any of the technical issues and I hope when you discuss with the other editor you can put aside differences and stick to the points at issue. If I have understood your question, I believe the answer is this: manufacturers' technical documentation is usually regarded as reliable for information about those manufacturers' products. As to quality of products, then the manufacturers will naturally assert that their stuff is good, so look instead for independent sources. For example the Coca Cola company's website is used as a source in that article for which kinds of drinks they made and when, but a variety of other sources, some hostile, are used in the rest of the article. If I've misunderstood the point, please say. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah. We're not talking about a specific manufacturer's documentation, but that of an international standards organization (INCITS). The "AT Attachment" documents describe the physical cable, connector, and electrical signaling that has long been used to connect hard drives and other storage devices to most computers (in the last couple of years it has been supplanted by Serial ATA). These standards are indeed independent of any manufacturer because the intent is that different manufacturers' products will work together.

Re quality: there is no assertion of quality of the interface, or of the specification, just an implication that "if you build it like this, you're building it the same way everyone else who complies with this standard expects you to build it."

My assertion is parallel to your understanding: These specifications are reliable sources for what they themselves say. Jeh (talk) 13:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

International standards organisations are considered highly reliable sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed (for reliable, notable ones, which INCITS certainly is). Note that the availability of the standard is important, but the free or convenient availability is not. RTCA standards are available, but not free. Likewise with many ISO standards, where drafts are sometimes freely circulated, but a final standard can be quite expensive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

One could also cite reviews of SSD that say they are connected via ATA. (e.g. references off of the wikipedia SSD page.) Though the citation you have seems like a more reliable source to establish actual support, rather than compatibility. Since your assertion is what is in the document, I don't see any way it could be regarded as OR. Zodon (talk) 21:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this is the right place to make this comment, but it seems to me that there is simply no bases to deny that SSD drives comport to the AT Attachment. SSD drives can readily be purchased that represent themselves as comporting to the ATA interface or the IDE interface or the SATA interface, all of which are one form or another of the AT Attachment specification. A quick google search will provide many such vendors. I have looked at a few of Ramu50's edits and find them completely without justification. FWIW, I have 25+ years experience in various disk drive interfaces including attendance at many of the standards meetings that led to the various AT Attachment specifications. Hope this helps Tom94022 (talk) 08:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Quite frankly this entire debate is extremely ridiculous. Ramu50 is being stubborn. Given that I can be quite stubborn myself, I know stubbornness when I see it. If specifications are not valid as sources when discussing those very same specifications, then nothing is a reliable source. This should go on Misplaced Pages's Lamest Edit Wars. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 (talk) 07:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you to all who commented here. The matter seems to be settled for now. Tom94022's insight in particular was most helpful: I pointed out that the lede said nothing about "support", only that ATA SSDs exist, and (after a few more cycles) that was sufficient. Jeh (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Does a source need to be DIRECTLY about a topic in order to use it on Misplaced Pages?

"

... Another phrase "So I herd u like mudkips," a reference to a sea creature from the popular animated show "Pokémon," spawned thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... viral phenomenon. Here's at a few of them: ... "so i herd u like mudkips": Originally posted on another Web site, members of 4chan adopted the phrase as in-joke. A "mudkip" is a lovable, water creature from the animated series Pokémon. You can watch some of the thousands of tribute videos on YouTube. ... " - WALL STREET JOURNAL - July 9, 2008 - Modest Web Site Is Behind a Bevy of Memes

I want to add that the phrase "So I herd u like mudkips" is considered a viral phenomenon by the WSJ to the article about the Pokemon Mudkip. But, an admin is saying I can't add it basically because

(a) information can't be sourced if it is not the main subject of the source article, and

(b) information must pass notability guidelines to be added to an article

Are these true? Here is the talk page with the argument. Habanero-tan (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(a) is a commonly held consequence of the basic content policies and their underlying principles. Essentially, off-topic and passing mentions are not accorded the level of editorial oversight and/or peer-review as the main thrust of the topic, meaning that the reliability of such statements is questionable. Additionally, such "throwaway" lines usually comprise an extreme minority of the claims and information on the topic, making their inclusion highly inappropriate and unbalancing.

Regarding (b), notability explicitly does not apply to article content, but rather to article inclusion. However, the basic idea of requiring substantive sources is often seen as inherent to basic content considerations, as noted above. Vassyana (talk) 05:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't comment on your example, but (a) is definitely true.Bless sins (talk) 00:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

(a) is preferred, and may be required to show notability, but there's nothing in policy that says if you want to source fact X that the entire article has to be about fact X. For instance, you might cite a book about World War II to footnote one fact about a particular battle in France. However, there's another level of indirection involved in this example. The WSJ article isn't so much partially about the Pokemon character as it is partially about a meme that riffs on the character's name. Most of the readers who look at the article will want to read about the Pokemon character, not about the meme. Some editors will cry "original research", but I think what we're interested in is WP:RELEVANCE, WP:COATRACK, or maybe WP:TRIVIA. One debate i saw one about connective fiction summed it up nicely, that if you want to point out that some pop-culture article has a reference to something more famous i.e. Shakespeare, then it's OK to point that out. But if it's a reference to something less famous (like this meme) it's best to leave it out of the article. Squidfryerchef (talk) 05:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

H.M.S. Pinafore Cultural impact section

I've been tasked with finding the references for a pre-existing Cultural impact section. Now, I don't need to find them all - we can just delete things that prove impossible - but I would like to try and get all the prima facie notable ones referenced. I'll be honest, though, I have no idea what sort of standards television and film references are held to, nor where to look for this sort of thing. For instance, would this be a reliable source to show that the Animaniacs parodied H.M.S. Pinafore songs? Please help. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I cannot imagine that some more "traditional" sources are not available for the general subtopic. The cultural impact, including pastiches and parodies, of Gilbert and Sullivan is a topic with an overabundance of sources. It may be difficult to source certain pop-culture claims in the section (though should we not put every nod to the work in there anyways), but it should not be overly difficult to appropriately rewrite and expand the section using reliable sources. CHUD is probably borderline, but acceptable. You may find the Manchester Universities' Gilbert and Sullivan Society website helpful as another online information source that is more directly related to the subject for that particular claim (though no harm in citing both references). TV.com also makes a clear reference to the nod. I hope this response is at least somewhat helpful. Vassyana (talk) 06:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Self-published sources and quotes from them on GNU/Linux naming controversy

Following discussion moved from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability per Shirahadasha's suggestion. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 07:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I get some opinions on this article? The subject is an acrimonious debate (want evidence? Talk:Linux/Name) and many of the sources on this page are either self-published (e.g. by Richard Stallman on the FSF's GNU website) or not even properly published but drawn from mailing list postings. The current argument seems to be that they are "experts" in their field. 76.10.148.211 (talk) 17:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

In the case of Stallman's publications (by an organization of which his is not the only member, merely an important one) I would suggest that unless the editor can be identified as Stallman himself, there is not a case of self-publishing in the sense WP cares about it.

I can write something, post it on any Web site (including one I run), and if you cite my work, everything will be fine. So, if I cite my work openly, there's a possible problem. If the Web site is a public one, it may be permissible here. If it's purely mine, then there's a conflict with WP policy. A middle case is me citing this last web site, but doing so as a sock puppet. Not always easy to detect, but if discovered, there'd be the same problem re WP policy.

In your example case, is the editor suspected, or proved, to be a sock puppet run by Stallman? I'd think it unlikely, given my impression of his perspective on various things, but perhaps it's possible. If so, the question re self-publishing citation is not so easy. The FSF is clearly a large and influential organization, and so it's not clearly obvious that Stallman's writing on its web site is self-publishing in this WP sense. Likely anything he feels strongly enough about to write up will find sufficient support to put on the FSF web site, but that's not a very clear case of self-publishing.

From a self-published citation perspective, being an expert in a subject isn't sufficient. Evaluating expertise is very difficult in a WP context. ww (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Stallman did write much of the material in question. However, I suppose I see it more like GNU and the FSF are the self-publisher, not Stallman. After all, the publisher in this case is by no means neutral: GNU and the FSF have a vested interest in the OS being called GNU/Linux. The same arguments were used elsewhere to remove citations to Microsoft's Total Cost of Operation studies, even though it wasn't Bill Gates himself who authored them.

I think another question with a more obvious answer is this: are Linus' and friends' posts to a mailing list unacceptable? I tried to delete references to them twice and got reverted. Check the recent page history. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 07:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

They're most certainly acceptable. They are recognized experts in the field ( and subjects of some of these articles ), and they're posting to expert's mailing lists. Squidfryerchef (talk) 15:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so they are experts in their field. I assume we are agreed that at least the mailing list postings are self-published. However, see the condition I discuss below: "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if: 1--7". Please argue that all 8 conditions for acceptability hold, i.e. the bit coming before the "and only if" plus the 7 conditions. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm really just asking for clarification, because I'm confused. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It might be worth stepping back for a minute and looking at what we mean by "reliable" here. What to name something is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. (There's no such thing as a factually wrong name.) Reliable sources on opinions have to be handled a little differently from facts. I think there may sometimes be some confusion because most of the examples given in WP:RS apply to facts and don't necessarily translate well to opinions. For opinions, reliable sources are authorative (they accurately present significant viewpoints) rather than accurate in the sense of the opinions themselves being "correct" (WP:NPOV prohibits judging opinions on their correctness, just on their significance.) We have plenty of independent sources that the dispute itself is notable (a question of fact.) We also have plenty of independent sources demonstrating that Richard Stallman, as a founder and towering authority figure in the whole field and party to the dispute (also a question of fact), so his opinion on the issue indisputably represents a significant opinion. So here, a "reliable" source for Richard Stallman's opinion is one that that has a reputation for accurately presenting Richard Stallman's opinion. A source directly attributable to Richard Stallman may actually be more reliable for that than one that expresses someone else's view of someone else's view of Richard Stallman's opinion. Best --Shirahadasha (talk) 22:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That's actually pretty reasonable. Certainly the reliability is fine and I don't dispute the reliability of the arguments presented by either side. They definitely said those things. So the next question is, what about WP:SPS? That page says it takes precedence over WP:RS because it is a policy. Even though Stallman is an expert in his field, WP:SPS says "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if: ...". First of all, the sources are not sources "about themselves". They are sources about a name, and so the bit before the comma in that quote indicates they are not acceptable. Second, even if we get to the "and only if" part, then we have the 7 conditions that follow, and in this case I think 2,3,4,7 do not apply. My intuition when I look at the article is that it is somehow artificially constructed... it does not feel "natural". It feels like documentation of a flame war between two well-known parties and (thus?) original research. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 06:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not a "flame war", its a debate between experts who cooperate with each other. These people are more than experts, these are the people who wrote and/or who are in charge of these different software packages. This is clearly "an article about themselves", and their posts are primary sources. Squidfryerchef (talk) 14:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

They may cooperate on their software but it this not a cooperative discussion about what to call their operating system. One side wants GNU/Linux, the other wants Linux. The title of the article is GNU/Linux naming controversy. It is a bitter and acrimonious debate. Please take a look at Talk:Linux/Name if you do not believe me. Anyway, let's assume the sources are really "about themselves" and not "about what to call the OS". Even if this holds, you've still only confirmed 1 of the 8 conditions.

Also, I definitely agree these are primary sources. As a separate issue, there are many interpretive claims in the article made about these primary sources and this goes against WP:OR. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Getting back to the "about themselves" question. The way I read that bit of the policy is that it is okay to use a mailing list posting by Linus Torvalds if the post is about Linus Torvalds. If that is not the case it would be helpful if the policy could be clarified because I am genuinely confused. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The real issue is that most computer-related articles don't get too whacked out about liberal arts standards. Most of them use primary sources pretty liberally, though I don't see any interpretive claims, just statements like "X said Y". The article could be improved by adding third-party sources that cover the debate, which shouldn't be too hard given there's Avogadro's number of Linux and free software journals out there, however that would be more to pacify the deletionists because it wouldn't change the overall content of the article, and I strongly support keeping the primary sources after secondary sources are added. The reason why computer articles rely more heavily on primary sources than, say, articles about religion, is because the topics are straightforward (software either works or it doesn't) and most of the editors who maintain them are very familiar with the subject matter. I'm also not interested in some list of eight conditions that was posted on some talk page instead of here ( note, that's not an invitation to post them here ), we're all familiar with WP's sourcing policies here. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

All I'll say is that there are a number of topics in the computer world that seem to behave an awful lot like religion articles. And this one seems to be something of an example. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

This is definitely one of those religion-like cases. We're talking about what to call the software, not how the software works. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion on primary vs. secondary sources. It's fine if you're not interested in the conditions, but they come from the non-talk part of WP:SELFPUB. If you cannot or are unwilling to help, then maybe another editor can help me. I would really appreciate clarification on WP policy here. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: to be absolutely clear, the 8 conditions are "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves" plus the seven items from the numbered list in WP:SELFPUB. Previously I referred to WP:SPS, as I did not notice the WP:SELFPUB link at the side. Again, this does not come from a talk page but the actual policy. My apologies if I was unclear or if this caused any confusion, but I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. I do not think the "about themselves" condition holds (to wit: a naming controversy cannot write about itself), but let's forget that for the moment and assume that it does. Even given this, I still do not think the seven conditions in the numbered list hold, specifically not items 2,3,4,7. Can we address these? Would you like me to explain why I do not think they hold? Thanks for your help. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 01:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Despite your lack of invitation, I'm just going to go ahead and list the disputed conditions here because I'm going to address them one-by-one:

2. it is not contentious

The material is very contentious. The name of the article has "controversy" in it. There is a 500+ kB talk page here: Talk:Linux/Name. (I think this may be why you thought I was referring to a set of conditions from some talk page.) It really is like some kind of religious matter. Or maybe political. I expect the same standards to be applied here that are applied to democrats vs. republicans and pro-choice vs. pro-life.

3. it is not unduly self-serving

The authors of these sources are generally involved with one of two sides. One the one hand we have Stallman, GNU, the FSF, and the "free software" side, and on the other hand we have Linux, X11, and the "open source software" side. There are big philosophical differences between them. The free software people want the name GNU/Linux because they believe it advances the prominence of GNU, and the open source software people generally want to dissociate themselves from GNU. Anybody publishing an article on a website or on a mailing list about this is advancing the position of one side or the other.

4. it does not involve claims about third parties

Most of the references do this. They must talk about third parties if they wish to dismiss the name the "other side" is proposing. (Or have I misunderstood what "third party" means? Is there such a thing as a "second party"?)

7. the article is not based primarily on such sources

The meat of the article is derived from these sources. If you look in the talk pages, you'll see an insistence on "prominent commentators", in other words well-known software experts participating in the controversy.

My interpretation of the policy is that if one of these 4 disputed claims listed above does not hold for a given source, then that source should be removed from the article. Is this an incorrect interpretation?

As a final note, Stallman is not only a software author. He really thinks of himself more as a philosopher and political activist, he hasn't written much software in ages. Thanks again, 206.248.134.130 (talk) 03:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the source should not be removed from the article. It's preferable that the article cite both primary and secondary sources for this information, but the primary sources should still stay. I don't know how an article about this topic could be written without quoting the principals involved. Your arguments are like saying we should not quote McCain and Obama in an article about the 2008 elections. This is clearly a case of "an article about themselves". I'm finding it difficult to assume good faith here, is there an objection to WP having an article on this topic? Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

website traffic

is hollywoodreporter.com a reliable source for estimating hits/traffic to a website? this article ] claims millions of hits for the site in question "since 2002," but actual traffic estimation sites such as trafficestimate.com , www.quantcast.com, and complete.com claim vastly different estimates from one another. should hollywood reporter be used as a source for traffic data? Theserialcomma (talk) 07:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• The Hollywood Reporter and its web site are reliable sources for discussion of the entertainment industry, but I don't believe they are directly involved in estimating web traffic. If the data came from one of its corporate affiliates, I don't see any indication of that. It would be fair to say that TuckerMax.com (the site in question) has been reported to have had millions of visitors (and cite that to Hollywoodreporter.com). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Safety of the Large Hadron Collider‎

Just need a pointer on something I'm sure I saw many moons ago about famous people expressing their points of view. It's pertaining to this thread here and the inclusion of non peer-reviewed and highly suspect science from someone who is not a physicist, and the only argument being noted for his inclusion is that he is in his own right notable as a biochemist. Where is the guideline on notable peoples thoughts with regards to controversial or fringe topics? Cheers 14:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The guideline doesn't deal explicitly with this but it urges you to look for sources that are expert in the relevant field. I'm wondering what kind of person is an expert on the safety of large scientific installations, and actually I think that it is not possible to identify one kind of expert. It takes a mixed team of physicists, electrical/electronic engineers, civil and structural engineers, etc. I'm guessing that CERN commissioned such an interdisciplinary team to report on the safety. Their reports are RS.

It is notable that a group of people started a court case to challenge CERN's view. The right kinds of sources to cover that are reports in mainstream newspapers and/or science magazines. (Here you are looking for reliability in news reporting, not reliability in science.) If the anti-CERN team commissioned a team with similar expertise to CERN's to back up their view, then their reports would be RS too. But since the case was dismissed out of hand by the judge, I doubt whether they did have such a team of experts. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic.com continued

Right, it's time now to continue my move to have allmusic removed as a reliable source on heavy metal genres.

Previously when I put this forward, the general response was that regardless of what case could be made, it was no good without reliable sources to back it up. So since then I have gone and found such sources, with more to come in the future if necessary. So far I've made use of three significant sources, all published books: Ian Christe's "Sound of the Beast: A Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal" (which I still have yet to go through in true detail), Essi Berelian's "The Rough Guide to Heavy Metal" and Garry Sharpe-Young's "Metal: The Definitive Guide". In each of these books I have found direct quotes and statements that contradict allmusic and prove it's unreliability as a source. The Definitive Guide has proven particularly useful given it's bredth and detailed information on many bands.

Here are specific examples of the evidence gathered, kept in short language:

Agent Steel - allmusic: not thrash metal. Definitive Guide: thrash metal.
Annihilator - allmusic: "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: "power/thrash metallers", no mention of progressive, just technical (distinctly different).
Atomkraft - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: within the "thrash metal" section.
Chimaira - allmusic: "punk revival". Rough Guide: they are "modern metal with a dash of hardcore" and "progressive metalcore", with comparisons to Slayer. Definitive Guide: within it's New Wave of American Heavy Metal section, which is specifically described as rooted in traditional metal "as opposed to punk roots".
Edguy - Allmusic: no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Edguy are a young power metal outfit".
Epica - allmusic: described solely as "progressive metal". Definitive Guide: clearly casts them as gothic metal ("Visionary goth-metal", "female-fronted gothic metal").
Godflesh - allmusic: "grindcore". Sound of the Beast: no where in the grindcore section, instead simply within the industrial metal one.
Grave Digger - allmusic: no thrash tag. Definitive Guide: described as "true survivors of the early-1980s German thrash metal scene", "lumped in with the emerging thrash acts of the day".
Hatebreed - allmusic: black/death metal. Definitive Guide: "a hardcore-influenced metal band", no mention of black or death metal.
Helloween - allmusic: thrash metal tag. Rough Guide: "power metallers", "power metal classics", "speedy metal", no mention of thrash. Definitive Guide: "A Hamburg power metal band", no mention of thrash.
Helstar - allmusic: "hardcore punk", no power metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Power/thrash metal", no mention of punk anywhere.
Kamelot - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "Noted progressive metal", not black/death.
Katatonia - allmusic: no mention of their gothic style anywhere. Definitive Guide: "heavy gothic elements".
Killswitch Engage - allmusic: "power metal", "thrash metal" and "progressive metal". Rough Guide: "metalcore", none of the others mentioned. Definitive Guide: "Metalcore", none of the others mentioned.
Lacuna Coil - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: No mention of black influence. Definitive Guide: placed in the gothic/prog/symphonic section, again black influence never mentioned.
Lamb of God - allmusic: just "black/death metal". Rough Guide: "elements of thrash, old school, hardcore punk and math metal", black/death never mentioned. Placed in the metalcore section. Definitive Guide: "metalcore scene leaders".
Massacre - allmusic: no death metal tag. Definitive Guide: "influential death metal pioneers".
Nevermore - allmusic: "alternative metal". Definitive Guide: "technical power metal".
Nightwish - allmusic: "symphonic black metal". Rough Guide: "gothic film-score metal", "combining progressive power metal, orchestral music and opera, with a strong element of drama and atmosphere". Definitive Guide: "Undoubtedly the foremost exponents of the operatic metal genre".
Powerman 5000 - allmusic: "heavy metal". Not mentioned in any of the sources at all.
Rammstein - allmusic: "progressive metal". Likewise, never mentioned, certainly not as progressive.
Razor - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "A prolific thrash outfit known for their low-budget yet aggressive releases".
Reverend Bizarre - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: simply described as doom metal, no mention of black or death metal elements.
Saint Vitus - allmusic: among other genres, they're classed as "alternative pop/rock". Definitive Guide: Just pure doom in description, nothing along those lines.
Shadows Fall - allmusic: "punk metal". Definitive Guide: Like Chimaira, NWOAHM, and thus classed as having no punk roots.
Slammer - allmusic: no thrash metal tag. Definitive Guide: "Bradford thrash metal band".
Strapping Young Lad - allmusic: "punk metal" (among others). Definitive Guide: Doesn't outright contradict it, but no mention whatsoever of anything like this.
The Black Dahlia Murder - allmusic: "black/death metal". Definitive Guide: "metalcore act".
Theatre of Tragedy - allmusic: no mention of their later techno influences. Definitive Guide: The album Musique "jumping brazenly into techno-pop".
Trouble - allmusic: no mention at all of their stoner metal/rock style. Definitive Guide: "Stoner legends".
Within Temptation - allmusic: just "goth rock". Definitive Guide: "Gothic doom metal act".
Xentrix - allmusic: no "speed metal" tag. Definitive Guide: "a speed metal act".
Last, and most definitely not least, allmusic lumps black metal and death metal together as a single genre tag, something all three of these sources (and no doubt every single other reliable heavy metal source) do not do at all.

So there you have it. The case against allmusic. If even this is not enough, there are further sources that will, I'm sure, only back up my argument, and mass opinion could easily be added in if necessary. Also bear in mind that given the lack of published sources that distinctly lay out genres, there are likely many more classifications which published sources would contradict allmusic on, they are simply not stated outright. There are also many other classifications that can be challenged, but not so definitively, these are the most obvious.

In the face of this evidence contradicting their genre classifications, I see no reason whatsoever to consider allmusic one of wikipedia's reliable sources for heavy metal genres. Prophaniti (talk) 16:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If the Rough Guide says a band is A and allmusic said it is B, then how do I know which is correct? Do you want us to comment on the reliability of the Rough Guide, the Definitive Guide and the Sound of the Beast? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

There are two ways to tell which is correct. Firstly, the three sources I've given agree amongst one another with regards to these bands, it is only allmusic that stands out. Secondly, mass opinion. I can quite easily turn up general votes regarding these genres, and I am confident very very few, if any, people will agree with the above classifications of allmusic. Given these, it is fairly obvious they are the ones with the incorrect information. Ultimately it would come down to this: no one will agree with allmusic on these bands, be it published source or mass opinion. In addition, the classifications given above by allmusic do not fit generally accepted standards of the genres they give (e.g. Nightwish do not fit the specifications for "black metal"). Prophaniti (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Disagreements among sources about music genres are common; this is not just about allmusic.com, but in general. The solution is to attribute the opinions. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 17:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Disagreements may be common, but at wikipedia we need to give bands genres, and thus need to determine which sources can be considered reliable and which cannot. My point is that allmusic very obviously isn't reliable, and so should not be cited as a "reliable source" in genre debates. Prophaniti (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The solution at http://www.discogs.com is to allow for 3 genres per record. Works really well. 206.248.134.130 (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Claims of unreliability on so subjective a matter as music genres are fairly weak. It's a matter of opinion. Even if the band steps forward and says, "We only want to be classified as death metal, period" there are still serious journalists that will go ahead and label them something else. --Laser brain (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Music genres are most definitely not just a matter of opinion. So many people seem to make this mistake. Just because they are in part subjective, doesn't mean it is entirely. There are many points in between "Entirely objective" and "Entirely subjective", and it's not good enough to just say "It's subjective". If it's entirely subjective, then why bother with the concept of reliable sources at all?

So no, I'm afraid it's not. Example: Thrash metal is a fast-paced genre. To qualify, a band will almost certainly have to play at a high tempo. Now, this isn't an absolute (very little really is of course), but it's a strong rule. Therefore, while it cannot be said with total objectivity that if a band plays at a slow tempo, it's not thrash metal, it can be said with a 90%+ degree of objective certainty. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Music genres are not subjective, they have defined characteristics and traits. The exact details of this may be debatable, but my whole point is that allmusic makes genre classifications that are very clearly wrong, because they don't even fit the most basic of accepted traits of said genres.

Another specific example: that allmusic lumps black metal and death metal together. I have just cited three separate, published sources that disagree, that describe them as separate musical genres. Add in millions of people who listen to the music to back that up. All that vs. allmusic. It's not hard to see which is in the wrong.

Granted, there is no ultimate reliable source. I freely admit no source can ever be called totally reliable, because there is a degree of subjectivity. However, we need sources that can be termed "reliable" within the context of the subject matter, or else we have nothing.Prophaniti (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, we agree on one point: If there is a published source available, I say it is highly likely to trump allmusic.com unless it is a vanity press or something. The book you mentioned above has favorable reviews and seems to be considered somewhat authoritative. I would support any genre in an article that is only sourced to allmusic.com being replaced by one sourced to a reliable print source. --Laser brain (talk) 19:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to put it a little more directly: in light of all the evidence above, can anyone come up with a specific good reason to consider allmusic a reliable source on heavy metal genres? More to the point, until someone can provide real reasoning for why they should be considered a reliable source on heavy metal genres, I will take it as an accepted unreliable source and act accordingly. Prophaniti (talk) 14:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic should be used when no other sources can be found. Also, consider reading Allmusic's bios for each band, they are usually more accurate than the labels, because those are just categories. I've found that the bio often contradicts the categories they put the band in. Plus, having actual text to back it up makes it much more verifiable than just labeling a band "death metal" or whatever. But either way, I stand by my previous statement: you should only use Allmusic if no other reliable sources are present. — Error 20:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, there were a good number of occasions when the text descriptions of the bands elaborated and were more accurate than the genre tags: but I left those ones out, as much as I could see. So the mistakes above are not including those.

Anyway, I'm glad to see at least that much is getting accepted. The only thing I'd suggest beyond that is also that allmusic not really be considered reliable if a genre is contested. Part of the reason for me doing this was a genre dispute being cut down when someone simply says "Allmusic says they're this", and that's that. In some cases there isn't another actual reliable source to use, and while I can see the validity of the "Something's better than nothing" argument, sometimes if something is contested I feel allmusic doesn't work as an end-all.

Example: Allmusic label Evile "black/death metal". Anyone who's heard them will confidently tell you they're thrash, not black or death. There's not even the slightest influence. But because Evile are relatively new and little-known band, there aren't other sources that actually mention them. In cases like this, and others like it, it doesn't seem right that allmusic can be used to override any amount of logic and reasoning (e.g. "Evile don't bear the following characteristics, the core ones of black or death metal"), when it's got such obvious flaws in this area.

Cheers for the reply. Prophaniti (talk) 22:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read. I don't see why we can't use the All Music Guide as a source; not only is it a website but it's also a published book. However, if people are uisng Allmusic, or any other source, to justify crufty lists of genres in band articles, then I agree with an above comment that we should do what Discogs does and only allow three genres to be listed. Squidfryerchef (talk) 15:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

And if you had read it you would have seen that I've provided three separate published books which all contradict allmusic. Just because something is published, doesn't mean it's reliable as a source. Example: There are plenty of published books stating that the holocaust didn't happen. However, because there is A) sufficient weight of published works saying otherwise, and B) sufficient logical errors in the theory, such books are not taken as reliable. I have provided both counter-sources and logical reason why allmusic's classifications are incorrect, and since no one's managed to come up with a remotely convincing counter-argument yet, I see no reason to treat it as a reliable source. The three genres thing sounds fine, but I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. Prophaniti (talk) 17:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Just because something is published, doesn't mean it's reliable as a source.. Actually, yes, that does make it a reliable source. "Reliable source" is a term of art on Misplaced Pages which means that we may cite it. It does not mean that its true. For example, there are all kinds of books about urban legends, conspiracy theories, and paranormal phenomena which aren't true, but we can cite them, and can cite other sources that contradict them. We're certainly not going to blacklist Allmusic as a source because they say some band is "speed metal" and some other source calls it "dark metal" Squidfryerchef (talk) 20:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't make it a reliable source. It may make it fit the technical definition of "reliable source", but what I mean is it isn't actually "reliable", in the real sense of the word. It might be considered -technically- a "reliable source", but many sources may fit this definition while not actually being -used- as a reliable source, because their credibility in a subject area is too low. It's also a lot more than them "saying some band is "speed metal" and some other source calling it "dark metal"". As I have shown above, it's MANY bands being very badly miscatagorised by allmusic, and SEVERAL sources contradicting them.

While wikipedia may utilise any published source, with such sources always contradicting one another, wikipedia must decide which to go with. In this case, for example, allmusic will call a band "A", while other sources call it "B", and the two cannot both be right. Given the large number of cases when allmusic is blatantly incorrect in it's catagorisation (as evidenced by both published sources and, if you wish me to gather it, mass opinion too), it cannot possibly be taken as a reliable source on this particular topic.

Also, allow me to pose a question, one I've asked numerous times previously but never once gotten an answer for: what precisely WOULD it take to have allmusic blacklisted? Because the impression I'm getting so far is it's impossible to get a source blacklisted in any way, no matter what argument or evidence is placed against them. Prophaniti (talk) 22:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

There's only two ways to have a site blacklisted as a source. One is for extremist websites, and the other is for spam. Allmusic is neither of those. I believe the argument you're getting at is that they might not be the best source for heavy metal genre names. This is more of a matter for WP's music projects, or talk pages on individual articles. It's not unusual for different editors to pick different sources and then agree that one source has better information than the other, but that's something you talk about with other editors on the talk page. Remember that Allmusic might be a perfectly fine source for classical or jazz music, and it wouldn't be right to remove it as a source for those articles. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh certainly, I've only ever been speaking of allmusic's reliability regarding heavy metal genres. My knowledge extends little beyond that, so I leave it's reliabilty in other areas to others entirely.

I agree, allmusic is neither spam nor extremist. But there are two issues I still feel need raising specifically:

1.) Part of the major problem is when there isn't an alternative source. As I mentioned above, Evile is a fairly new and not that well known thrash metal band, so very few (if any) published sources mention them. Allmusic terms them black/death metal, but anyone, I mean ANYONE with the slightest knowledge of heavy metal and Evile will tell you they're not at all black/death. This is an extreme example, but my problem is it doesn't seem right that allmusic can be utilised in this particular area when it contains so many errors. Especially since books are very rarely comprehensive in music genres (i.e. they might not outright say what a band is or is not, or cover them all).

2.) While allmusic may be qualified in some areas of music, music as a whole is very broad indeed, and qualification to catagorise music in some form doesn't equal qualification to catagorise all forms. Take history as an example: a historian may be a real expert in modern history, but know next to nothing about ancient history, or vice versa. And given that allmusic itself is part of a large company, it wouldn't seem hard for them and their writers to have works published regardless of any actual qualification in that field. Their very claim to cover "all music" would suggest a low reliaibilty because of this very nature. Prophaniti (talk) 08:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Still waiting on why it can be cosidered unreliable.72.81.227.98 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Then I suggest you actually read my post. Because I'm still waiting on why it can be considered reliable. Prophaniti (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2008

And I'm waiting for the opposite. You give us sources that say something other then AM and tell us they are right because 1 they agree with each other and 2 majority opinion. 1) So what? I still can't tell that they are right over AM. It's not uncommon for sources to be in agreement with each other. How many sources call, let’s say fall out boy emo? A ton. A ton of sources also call them Pop punk. We'd report both. It's not our job to figure out which is right. An example:

Within Temptation - allmusic: just "goth rock". Definitive Guide: "Gothic doom metal act".

Both would be put in the info box. 2) Neither I nor wikipedia care about the "random idiot in the street test" as my friend put it. What mass opinion is, is irrelevant.72.81.227.98 (talk) 23:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(reset indentation to save cluttering)

They agree with each other and yet none agree with allmusic, that's the point. If you have three sources saying one thing on one side, and another saying a different thing on the other, the weight lies clearly against allmusic. It's not uncommon for sources to agree with one another, but the point you fail to mention is that here you have a number of sources on one side and a single one on the other.

Mass opinion -is- a factor, because there is an element of subjectivity involved in musical genres. There's plenty of objective fact too, but a mixture of the two overall. It's not a science, so while it's not true that "there are no right and wrong answers", it's equally not true that mass opinion counts for little.

For what it's worth, your own argument can be turned against you: you see, while you might not be able to tell how ridiculous allmusic's classifications are, anyone who has had any expeirence of heavy metal and the bands in question can. This is why I bring up mass opinion. So while the "random idiot in the street test" may be meaningless, I'm afraid it's you who represent the "random idiot" in this case (no offence intended). What I mean by mass opinion is the opinion of anyone who has had any experience of the band(s).

It's okay to report two genres if they are not mutually exclusive, and indeed some of the examples I've found aren't mutually exclusive, they are in to add to the overall case. But a lot are exclusive, and regardless are just plain wrong. Yes, we could put "power metal" into Killswitch Engage's info box. But their music doesn't fit the defintion of power metal, as given by any reliable source.

The fact is, there are very few actual published sources (comparatively) on this sort of subject matter. I've turned up three that contradict your one, allmusic. Three against one. Until you, or anyone else, can provide sufficient sources that back up allmusic, there simply isn't a reason to consider them a genuinely reliable source on heavy metal genres. Prophaniti (talk) 23:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, you need to read wikipedia's policies on varifiability, personal attacks, civility, andoriginal research. As far as wikipedia is concerned, mass opinion is not a factor as it is neither reliable nor verifiable. People with experience will write an article about it. Second, again sources agreeing with each other means nothing. It's not uncommon for sources to do so. "Yes, we could put "power metal" into Killswitch Engage's info box. But their music doesn't fit the definition of power metal, as given by any reliable source." that's what I mean by original research. It's not our job to figure out which genre is true. BTW, when did I say that AM is right?72.81.227.98 (talk) 19:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I accept sources agreeing with one another doesn't inherently mean they're right. But it's a clear sign when you have several sources agreeing against a single one that stands out.

And while it might not be wikipedia's job to figure out which is right all the time, it's still important. In some of the above cases, both genres can be incorporated. But in many, they can't. We have two directly conflicting sources, one has to be right, the other wrong. In these cases, it is our job to figure out which is wrong.

Basically, it comes down to this: I can accept allmusic qualifing as a technically "reliable source", fitting that definition on wikipedia due to it's publication. However, clearly some sources are more reliable than others, and I have outlined how allmusic has made a large number of, sometimes quite fundamental, errors in it's classification of heavy metal band genres. These can be deemed mistakes by other published sources, mass opinion (no one, and I mean no one, will agree with most of those) and simple logic and reasoning (the band genres above do not fit the genre classifications as accepted by any number of published sources).

So, what I'm moving for is for allmusic to be considered a largely unreliable source on heavy metal genres. This isn't to say it can never be used, but rather that if it comes under challenge, it should always be considered the weaker of sources, and indeed be open to dispute sometimes even without directly conflicting sources, if it has no others to back it up on whatever the point may be (because often another reliable and relevant source is not available on such points). Prophaniti (talk) 11:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's a few observations, and hopefully this can be moved to another forum:

1. According to our article about Allmusic, it has a large staff of professional music critics, its database was made into a published book, it's widely used in the industry, so it meets all our sourcing guidelines.
2. Categorizing metal bands into subgenres is really something that should be settled by a consensus of editors. Isn't there a "heavy metal" Wikiproject? If not, start one.
3. Your project might want to standardize on six or seven categories of metal and decide the rest are synonyms or subcategories. Pop culture writers make up "genres" all the time, and sometimes the same style of music has different names in different countries ( a very common cause of disputes in these articles) You might also decide on a pecking order of which sources you prefer for metal genres.
4. However, you don't want to rely too heavily on one source for this information, for copyright reasons. Quoting a book about rock bands for what genre they consider some band to be in is fair use. Quoting the same book thousands of times to get that information for every band becomes a copyright violation.
5. I might suggest you use news articles, articles from rock magazines or guitar magazines to get this information too. You'd have a more authoritative cite, with a well-known reviewer and a well-known source. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The key thing I'd dispute there is allmusic being qualified to catagorise simply because they are general music critics. It means they can be used some of the time, but it doesn't make them particularly reliable. After all, music is a very big area, people can be experts in one field and know nothing about another. There's nothing I've seen to specifically qualify them to talk about heavy metal music, and while they could be reliable, the above evidence implies that they make a lot of heavy mistakes. This needs to be taken into account when using them as a source, especially as they get used so often (in my experience, if there's an incorrect music genre tag, chances are allmusic is at the root of it). Prophaniti (talk) 11:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That is one of the things that makes them qualified,they are peer reviewed. The above evidence implies nothing. Again, we cannot tell which source is correct. 3 on 1 means nothing because none of the sources state the other as wrong, they merely have a different catagorization. Info boxes are NOT a one genre deal ever... you seem to think they are. Looking at a bands playing style and looking at a genre as described by a source and deciding that the band is not that genre is a violation of WP:OR.

"And while it might not be wikipedia's job to figure out which is right all the time, it's still important. In some of the above cases, both genres can be incorporated. But in many, they can't. We have two directly conflicting sources, one has to be right, the other wrong. In these cases, it is our job to figure out which is wrong." Again that is false. Both genres can be put into the info box regardless of wheather the genres are similar. It's originale research that cannot be used. When you want to decide which genres to be in the info box you bring up the sources and decide via concensus which source should be used. You do not argue which genre they do or do not fit IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE. And this should be done on the indevidual articles talk page. BTW, there is a Wikiproject heavy metal already.72.81.227.98 (talk) 00:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"Again, we cannot tell which source is correct. 3 on 1 means nothing because none of the sources state the other as wrong, they merely have a different catagorization. Info boxes are NOT a one genre deal ever... you seem to think they are."

As I have stated twice now, I fully understand that genre info boxes can have several catagories in. But a lot of the above genre clashes are too direct, they cannot fit into the same box unless they describe different albums, which there's no indication they do. And this is also the whole reason I cite mass opinion: no one who knows anything about this music will agree with allmusic. If three sources vs. one means nothing when they clearly DO state the other is wrong (in as much as possible, because no book will ever say "Oh by the way, allmusic is wrong" like that), in an area where there are so few published sources, then it would seem various editors are just being mindlessly fussy and stubbornly refusing to accept what is plain and apparent: allmusic cannot catagorise heavy metal bands reliably.

Nightwish, for example, are NOT black metal. They never have been. This, like many other examples, are plain and obvious to anyone who knows anything about the band. I do have other sources, and if they're not enough then I don't particularly care whether it counts as original research, it's accurate and that's that. Although I question whether it truly is original research given that it's based on published source's and their classifications of said genres, which is what allmusic clashes with. In addition, you admit that consensus is used to decide which source is used when there is a conflict: so you admit that general opinion does have an influence after all, and that is part of the argument: that in given conflicts, allmusic would lose every single one of the above examples, because they're accurate.

Also, I don't know where the "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE" point comes from, as I have got a source, that's rather the point. I'm becoming tired of arguing the same points over and over and people simply refusing to listen to them. Prophaniti (talk) 10:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Guys, easy there. I know lots of editors are worried about so-called "original research" but we are definitely ok to act as a filter and choose the best/most accurate information out of the thousands of sources availiable to us. We are definitely _not_ supposed to tack on what each and every source says about a band because like I explained in the numbered list above, we'd have a copyright problem. I'd suggest, after merging some of the genre articles together, so we know we're talking about universally recognized genres, to do the "original research" first, agree on what style of music a band is, and then use the most authoritative source to back it up. You could also try Googling the band name against the major genre names to see if there's a consensus on the rest of the net, then cite the best source that backs it up. And please take this off RS to one of the WikiProjects. Squidfryerchef (talk) 04:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

First off, Prophaniti, you need to read WP:NPA. You've violated it a second time now. Continue to do so and you will be reported and likely blocked.

"As I have stated twice now, I fully understand that genre info boxes can have several categories in. But a lot of the above genre clashes are too direct, they cannot fit into the same box unless they describe different albums, which there's no indication they do." whether they come from 2 albums, or whether they clash or not is irrelevant. All we need to know is a source has stated them as such.

"Although I question whether it truly is original research given that it's based on published source's and their classifications of said genres..." again looking at a source for the description of genre X and listening to band Y and coming to the conclusion that band Y plays genre X is original research. If you don’t like this policy you have some options: 1) Ignore the policy and be blocked from editing wikipedia. or 2) Follow the policy. or 3) Try to change the policy on the relevant talk page. or 4) Stop editing wikipedia. Simple as that.

“If three sources vs. one means nothing when they clearly DO state the other is wrong…” no they do not. You seem to be dead set on a one genre to rule them all thing but no band is ever one genre only. Every song and every album differs down to the smallest detail. It is these differences that make more then one genre applicable.

Again what the mass opinion of a bands genre is, is irrelevant. Unless there is a source stating what a bands genre is, we don’t add it regardless of majority opinion.

“In addition, you admit that consensus is used to decide which source is used when there is a conflict: so you admit that general opinion does have an influence after all, and that is part of the argument: that in given conflicts, allmusic would lose every single one of the above examples, because they're accurate.” Nowhere did I say that general opinion has an influence on what genre the band plays. I said it is decided via consensus of the editors as to which sources for a genre to use. This is done NOT by arguing which genre the band sounds most like but rather the majority of verifiable sources. Indeed, if you were arguing this on a given bands article talk page, you’d likely succeed. Of course, this kind of thing is only done when the genre section gets too long, so as long as it’s 3 genres long, don’t expect to get very far on most bands articles. BTW, AM wouldn’t lose because the other sources are accurate, it would lose because there are more of them... granted print sources are usually NOT the best for this sort of thing.

“Also, I don't know where the "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A SOURCE" point comes from, as I have got a source, that's rather the point.” You completely ignored my point with that. I was talking about individual band articles.

Regardless, this is something to take up on the wikiproject page, not here. 72.81.227.98 (talk) 05:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

First off, no I haven't attacked you or anyone else even once. I've become frustrated, but I've never attacked anyone. If you've taken offence at something, I'm sorry for that, but do not start threatening me with blocks or the like.

Anyway, I've now given up hope of people seeing sense here. I'll take specific disputes to the heavy metal project page, but I will make one last appeal for sanity:

Never have I said I insist on only one genre. But that also doesn't mean that just because a source says a band is a genre, it is. Sources -can- be wrong. The argument I outlined is that we have a lot of weight on one side of this (three sources, each on their own more specific to heavy metal and thus slightly more reliable than allmusic with it's broad scope, any number of individuals, and simple logic and reason) and a single isolated source on the other. Granted, none of the sources say outright things like "Nightwish aren't black metal", but that's because those things are such absurd suggestions in the first place. You won't find a source, I'm sure, that says outright "Harry Potter is not a science fiction series", but that doesn't mean any source is saying it might be. These books go into sufficient detail that not mentioning a genre of a band is as close to saying they're not it as any source on this topic will ever get. As such, the sources -do- disagree with allmusic, and given the hefty outweighing of one side of that disagreement, it's obvious that allmusic is incorrect in many cases.

I'll say it one more time, although it seems to have been ignored the times I've said it so far: I've never said one genre for each band, nothing of the sort. But just because a band -can- have a genre, doesn't mean it should, not when several other, more focused sources say otherwise.

Anywho, I've given up hope of convincing people here. i've shown allmusic to be unreliable, something I knew even before I found any sources. Whether or not certain people will accept this doesn't matter much, I shall simply treat it as such when it comes up.

Resolved tag added. Prophaniti (talk) 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi and Stalinist Soviet sources

Currently, an editor has expanded this article: Massacres of Poles in Volhynia, using Stalinist Soviet and German Nazi sources that I find unreliable. Examples:

• The newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940 reported,
• Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians.,
• The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina (from the fall of 1939, after German and Soviet attack on Poland),
• The Sovet newspaper "Komunist" for October 20 also published a report from its correspondent in Berlin about the massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv. (refers to the year 1939),

Furthermore, facts mentioned here (the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians - where, when?) and (massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv - when?) have not been described in any other sources. Thank you for help. BTW see also talk: Tymek (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi sources would definitely be considered unreliable and shouldn't be used (even in articles about themselves, you can easily find a neutral third party source).

"where, when?" Very good questions. If a source is reliable it should be able to answer this and give reasonably sufficient details.Bless sins (talk) 00:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for help. Tymek (talk) 00:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever else, these are primary sources, and per WP:PSTS should not be used to make any controversial claims. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Benny Morris

This has probably been discussed before:

Is Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001 by Benny Morris a reliable source for historical facts?Bless sins (talk) 23:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Reading from the Benny Morris article he is notable and reputable on the subject he publishes about. So you can cite from the book, but WP:NPOV should be followed. =Species8473= 23:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Author is an academic historian whose work has been the subject of academic disagreement. "Use and balance" is the standard approach here. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Christianity Today

Is Christianity Today Magazine a reliable source on third parties? In particular is it a reliable source on Islamic countries, or citizens from Islamic countries? This shows that it is a non-objective source. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very good resource for Christians and those seeking healing. But don't think its a good source for wikipedia.Bless sins (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly Christianity Today is written from an evangelical Christian point of view. But that does not mean that the information in their news section is inaccurate. For example, the following item about events in an Islamic country appeared in its News Briefs section: The Malaysian government has ruled that non-Muslim publications may not use the word Allah. The Herald, a Catholic newspaper, filed a lawsuit against the government December 5 protesting the prohibition, and it continued to use Allah in its 2008 editions. This item was accurate, as can be seen from the International Herald Tribune and Reuters. Hence, we should not assume that Christianity Today is inaccurate in its coverage of news events in Islamic countries. Each citation to Christianity Today should be judged on its own merits. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is reliable for statements of opinion (ie for statements about what the magazine says). As for statements of fact, I agree with Metropolitan90... each citation should be checked out, to be sure that the admitted evangelical bias of the magazine is not distorting the facts... but that needs to be done on a citation by citation basis. Blueboar (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Biased sources are not equivalent to unreliable sources. While bias can obviously affect reliability, it is not a question that should be resolved by using other sources to disprove their points and cast them as "unreliable". That is an approach contrary to our only founding content principle: NPOV (see m:Foundation issues). Generally, the use of biased sources should be evaluated based on proper weight. For example, extremist sources are often considered unreliable, but the clearest (and most fundamental) principle excluding them from use is NPOV, which excludes extreme minority views. All that said, the reason question at hand in this case is whether or not the evangelical Christian perspective is significant enough for inclusion in the article in question. Vassyana (talk) 18:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The Black Parade

I have two questions about sources I wish to use in The Black Parade article. The first one is http://www.everyhit.com/index.html which is an archive of the Top 40 UK Charts. The other is http://swisscharts.com/index.asp which is a source for the Swiss Charts. I had originally obtained these sources from the Dookie featured article so I figured they'd be reliable to use but a concern was raised in the peer review that the sources are possibly not reliable. I wish to use these sources for their chart information in the article. Both are archives of past information.  Orfen  • _C 19:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

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