Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:52, 5 August 2008

This article was nominated for deletion on 18 June 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Holodomor Template

Holodomor Template was added to this article strictly for background information of related articles in Misplaced Pages. The Holodomor template is patterned after the Holocaust Template and the Armenian Genocide Template.

The template, if any, should meet the consensus by its content. So far it is a random and strange collection of stuff someone might have "heard" or something. It cannot be used in articles. --Irpen 05:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Tags - One by One

Hello,

There are three tags on the page, and I propose we discuss them one by one. First, the neutrality tag. The reason I think that this is not neutral is that by definition it ascribes the famine to the Soviet Union. When discussing the Irish Potato Famine, one knows that everybody in Ireland suffered. When discussing the Ethiopian famine, one knows that everybody in Ethiopia suffered. However, in 1932-33, only a few small parts of the Soviet Union suffered, mostly (and I mean MOSTLY Ukraine). Therefore, by naming the issue "The Soviet Famine" Misplaced Pages automatically distributes the suffering throughout the Soviet Union, which simply did not happen.

Second, the tag about OR. None of the references provided mention anything about "all the major grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". There are no in-line references until the "estimation of loss of life" section, and that is only to quote a number. Everything else seems to have been written by the editors, or put together by them. In other words, total OR. In the lead itself, there is a reference to the famine of 1932-34.

Third, about unpublished synthesis. In none of the references is there a description of a famine which affected "all of the grain producing regions of the Soviet Union". Because that never happened. That is not what scholars are saying, and therefore it has no place on Misplaced Pages. One more query about references. These were stated to be by "acknowledged experts", and yet one of them is titled "The Soviet Famine of 1931-33: Politically Motivated or Ecological Disaster?", with the wrong dates. How is this an "expert" source?

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

• Right, since you asked me to come here let me address the first point:

- The Ukraine at the time was part of the Soviet Union and all the references I found describe the event as the soviet famine therefore the article title is fine and based on that the title is neutral and factually correct. Jasynnash2 (talk) 09:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, you're right that Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at the time, but that's exactly the point - there were many parts of the Soviet Union, and most of them were not affected. Don't you think that by saying "Soviet Famine" it implies that everybody suffered, just like saying "Soviet losses during World War II" implies everybody suffered? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope. I think by saying Soviet Famine that it means soviets suffered and that the famine occured in the Soviet Union. Pretty basic stuff in my opinion (the exact same reasoning works for your Soviet losses example as well by the way. Jasynnash2 (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that we have to be careful here because of the topic. When you speak of wars, you can assume that the entire country was involved, because as a political entity, it decided to declare war. (of course there are many times, like in Canada during the two World Wars, that some political entities within the country objected)That's why when you talk about the second world war, its acceptable to say Soviet losses.

However here, we're dealing with a natural disaster, and arguably a genocide. When you talk about the Tokyo earthquake of 1921, it's not the Japan earthquake of 1921, even though it happened in Japan. When you talk about Mt Vesuvius erupting, it's not the Roman volcano, even though it happened in the Roman empire. In those cases, suffering was very focussed. Now, when you talk about the Irish potato famine, it means everybody in Ireland was suffering.

However, with the Famine in 1932-33, there were very focussed areas that suffered - not most grain producing regions, and not the Soviet Union. Naming it the Soviet famine makes that assumption. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 04:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo, your personal opinions are irrelevant. The famine's being Soviet is stated right in the title of one of the (if not the) most authoritative books on the subject by the leading scholars of the field.

• R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft, "The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 (The Industrialization of Soviet Russia)", Palgrave Macmillan, 2004, ISBN 0-333-31107-8.

The authors specifically speak about Soviet famine and if you ever intend to start reading any scholarly sources on what happened during this famine (in Ukraine and elsewhere in the USSR), your best shot is to start with this work. (I could recommend also some works in Ukrainian but I am not sure you can read Ukrainian.) Such works are by far more educational than local Ukrainian community newspapers that you mostly use to "source" your articles. While buying this book may cost you, it would be money well spent. Alternatively, you may try a good library. Regards, --Irpen 04:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Irpen, thank you for your opinion. Also, for somebody who makes grammar mistakes in English in almost every sentence, please don't start lecturing me about reading "scholarly sources". Note that THE most authoritative book (according to you) on the subject does not mention any soviet famine. It mentions soviet agriculture, and soviet russia. However, that is not what this is about. Perhaps "famine" and "agriculture" are two words that you could look up. There are some great dictionaries in bookstores, or if they are too expensive, you could check your local library.

If you have something constructive to add, please do. If you don't understand something, such as the difference between agriculture and famine, or soviet russia and the soviet union, please ask. However, please don't remove tags before checking the talk page.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo, if you want to be taken seriously and get responses, do not leave trollish entries like above. Best regards, --Irpen 08:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC).

Hello, Irpen, again, if you have something constructive to add, please do. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Horlo's negligence

I've added sources to the different regions of the famine's locations, Caucasus, Central Asia and Siberia are quite vast territories, add Ukraine to that and it certainly fits the definition of a nation-wide famine. Now we must focus on expanding this article. --Kuban Cossack 12:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ain't this wonderful: Please discuss before removing tags - personal attacks are not discussions yet where are you Horlo on the talk page? All your previous queries have been answered! What do you want discussions to go on without your participation and until they endorse your svidomy POV? --Kuban Cossack 11:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, if you actually read the talk page, you will see that none of the issues raised have been answered - there is no mention about a Soviet-wide famine. There is talk about people suffering, people starving to death, and one book that describes the failure of Russian agriculture. However, nothing about a Soviet wide famine.

I'm sure that if I count how many times you have called me a POV pusher - in light of the fact that you have not answered any of my questions, and undid how many of my edits claiming "read talk - no consensus" rather than discussing in good faith, I'm pretty sure that it would become obvious who has to participate on the talk page. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I provided refrences to three of the named regions, one from a demographic journal, one from a historical journal and one from the release by the Siberian Academy of Sciences. I don't exactly think those are synthesis...--Kuban Cossack 08:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the synthesis is your combining all of those events into one. That's exactly the problem with this article - there is no source stating that everybody in the USSR was suffering from famine. By stating that there was a soviet famine, you are synthesizing, and Originally Researching. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 21:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

In the Russian famine of 1921 there were areas of Russia that were not suffering from the famine. In the Holdomor there were areas of Ukraine that were not suffering from the famine. What's your problem? On the AFD NOBODY supported you in deleting the article, and now you want to discredit it. --Kuban Cossack 07:44, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I don't know anything about the Russian famine of 1921, so I won't comment on that. In the Holodomor, there were areas of Ukraine where food was available - the parts not in the USSR.

However, that doesn't change the fact that there was no one soviet famine, just a bunch of little ones. And please, don't speculate about my motivation - the reason I edit here is to make Misplaced Pages a better, and more transparent, place. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Really which is why so far your contribution has been a resultless attempt to mutilate the title of Kiev. Anyhow your lack of knowledge of the 1921 famine is really dissapointing, you seem to take so much interest in the subject but that comment shows how limited your wider knowledge of the subject really is. In that case, I would recommend that you withold from attacking articles you know nothing about, like this one. --Kuban Cossack 07:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Kuban kazak, please avoid such long-winded discussions that talk about alot but say nothing. None of what you wrote in that paragraph has anything to do with the discussion here - the famines that took place in the early 1930s.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 18:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't veer off subject Horlo, your limited knowledge of the topic and your ignorance to the wider facts are crystal clear in your tone above, and in the context of the content. I've made citations which prove everything, on the AfD NONE supported you. So please take that oppurtunity and read up on the subject. --Kuban Cossack 07:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, how am I veering off topic? I am asking questions about this article, and you are calling me ignorant. Please avoid personal attacks, but answer the questions. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

All your questions have been answered, you did not like the answerings file a WP:DR, stop reverting, otherwise I will request for the article to be locked from editing.--Kuban Cossack 07:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Hello, first, could you please show me one scholarly reference that states that there was a soviet-wide famine which included all of the grain producing areas of the soviet union? Let's start there. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

, is that enough? --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 07:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, actually, no, for three reasons. First, the book you found talks only about the Volga and Kazakhstan regions. Second, the book talks about denial by the soviet authorities and/or drought, not famine. Third, it does not mention one all-encompassing famine. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Look Horlo you might as well seek WP:DR, I can only say that your pointless attack on this article is getting irritant, reminds me of the fruitless attempt to rename Kiev, that one year on is nowhere. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 07:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, if you have something to add to this discussion, please do. However, statements like "your pointless attack" and "getting irritant" or even "that one year on is nowhere" do not help anybody. Please, try to avoid any personal comments, and let's build this into a better encyclopedia.

Now, do you have any reasons that the tags do not belong? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 05:32, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I ask - can you show one source that claims that "there was a famine in all major grain-producing regions of the soviet union"? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 05:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I had a look at the some of the scholarly sources that mention the "Soviet famine", they all seem to be discussing the famine in Ukraine. The way the lead is structured diminishes the famine in Ukraine to just another area in the Soviet Union suffering a famine, when it is clear that Ukraine had the lion's share of deaths, i.e. Ukraine accounts for >60% of all deaths in the "Soviet famine". I think the lead needs to be re-worded to reflect this fact. Martintg (talk) 11:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the lead to reflect the published sources. Martintg (talk) 12:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

According to who? says Kazakhstan lost a significantly larger percentage of its rural population than Ukraine. Krawndawg (talk) 02:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)