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Poland Unassessed

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Wik. The German name of Swinemünde is Swinemünde. It is not a "former" name.

S´winoujs´cie: German pages: 5

Swinemünde: German pages: 13,300

Furthermore, the English name also seems to be Swinemünde

S´winoujs´cie: English pages: 5

Swinemünde: English pages: 766

766-5 - you love ratios like that, huh? ;-)

-- Nico 17:46, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Real figures:

Swinoujscie 34,600
Swinemünde 15,000

--Wik 18:12, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Ah, but Swinoujscie is certainly not the same name as S´winoujs´cie. Similarly is not Swinemunde the same name as Swinemünde. Nico 19:04, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

City population

source: Rocznik Statystyczny 1981, Główny Urząd Statystyczny, Warszawa 1981, Rok XLI
1960: 17.000 inbabitants
1970: 28.100 inbabitants
1975: 42.400 inbabitants
1980: 47.100 inbabitants

cc

Link extinguished

20.06.07 Who has extinguished my link? Pan Lugowski? http://erwin-rosenthal.de/swinemuende1/ Erwin Rosenthal

21.06.07 Who has extinguished my link? Pan Lugowski? Erwin Rosenthal

Conflict

If the place is currently in Poland, it seems reasonable that the Polish name should be listed first. If it was formerly part of Germany, the German name should be mentioned, but not first. Does anyone disagree, and if so why? Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 19:47, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I merely shifted them because known vandal User:Wik insists on adding 'former'. No problems with the current state. Jor 19:49, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What is wrong with calling the German name 'German name'? A clarifier like 'former' or 'historic' is wrong, since it is still the name in German (and in most English texts). Jor 19:51, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No, it isn't. I posted the real figures above. --Wik 19:52, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Take out the POLISH LANGUAGE results, and you end up with Nico's figures. Rather a difference, wouldn't you say? Call it whatever you like in the Polish Misplaced Pages, but stop trying to falsify history. Jor 19:54, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nico's search on the Polish name doesn't prove anything, due to its use of spacing accents, which hardly pick up anything. I assume this is an oversight. If i search in .uk I get 33 for Swinemünde, 21 for Swinemunde, 4 for Swinemuende, and 268 for Swinoujscie. This demonstrates that the latter term is more used in UK web pages. You can see I have no agenda here - I was even involved in the move war to get Oder-Neisse line where it is now. Morwen 19:59, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not accusing you of an agenda, fwiw. Jor

Google.com figures:

• Swinemünde OR Swinemunde in English pages: 1340
• Świnoujście in English pages: 1,260

Jor 20:07, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why do you omit Swinoujscie in English pages? Which is 9,810. Again, this must be another oversight. Morwen 20:08, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

It is. I also left out various variant spellings of the German/English name, this is a simple search for the main names. Jor 20:09, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why is 'Swinemunde' considered a main name, then, and not just a variant? I'm not sure this is being very consistent. The most frequently used name in English is Swinoujscie, which has nearly ten times as many hits in google as Swinemünde/Swinemunde. Even the form with the accents has as many hits as the German form, in English texts. I propose the wording 'Świnoujście, formerly Swinemünde.' As you say, what the German name is, is irrelevant on the English wikipedia. Morwen 20:14, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

ASCII does not include a ü character. Much software silently drops umlauts, or converts them to <char>e (which I did not search for). What is so wrong with the current form? Wik's revertionism implies there is some reason Swinemünde as a name is not acceptable, which I have yet to see him defend? Jor 20:17, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

ASCII doesn't contain a Ś character, either. I have nothing particular against the article in either of the states you are edit warring about. I am just trying to suggest compromises that might be acceptable to both sides? Since there seems to be little interest in this idea, I think I will go back to making maps of Libya. Morwen 20:21, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

If you can get Wik to accept a form without 'former', 'historic', 'ancient', 'fictional' or whatever else he wants to prefix the other name with, there is no more 'edit war'. I'd welcome a contribution by Wik to this article for once, instead of a revert or deletion.

I see Wik reverted yet again while I am typing this, I'm tired of it. Screw this, I've better things to do than try and fix Wik's vandalism. Jor 20:25, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I see Cartman's going home. And by the way, of course ASCII contains an ü character, otherwise you couldn't display it here without the &# code, which is required for Ś though. --Wik 20:34, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, ü is not in ASCII, which contains only characters 32 to 126. It is in ISO 8859-1 though, which is why we can use it. Morwen 20:37, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

That's extended ASCII. --Wik 20:42, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

In either case it is certain that Swinemünde as a name is still in use, and this 'historic' of 'former' is not wanted. I left out German, Dutch, etc. results from this search, as this is the ENGLISH wikipedia. Jor 20:09, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Morwen. The current English name seems to be Swinoujscie. However, the German name is surely Swinemünde, and it's not a "former German" name. Nico 08:53, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

what we are taking about Swinoujscie, is a polnish fantasy name, founded 1945 after the complete ethnical cleansing of the whole city by polnish forces. Using of such ahistorical names is suporting of ethnical cleansing. --Klastori 20:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, my German friend, contrary to countless other names indeed either invented or "repolonised" after the war, this one has been in use at least since middle ages. In fact it's the other way around, all towns in the area still have Slavic names, some of them Germanised. In Polish these are meaningful toponyms, in German they are not (just tell me what Misdroy means...). Anyway, the name was not invented by anyone in 1945.

Also, it appears that you might want to read up more on who owned the town during the later stages of the war and afterwards - and who expelled the local Germans... AFAIR it was not until 1948 that the Red Army finally passed it to Poland... //Halibutt 21:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

sorry you mixing up west-slavic and polnish origin. the most west slavic tribes around the year 1000 were not polnish or just conquered by them, for a very short time. the polnish claim on these area is a very bad historic joke. Its like the the british would claim the french britany area or the french calais area because around the year 1000 some britsh tribes were hunting in the bushes there. another example the germans could claim for the same reason the polnish area around Lodz because the germanic vandal tribes were jumping around there in the year 600. Sorry the polish claims are ahistoric and radical nationalistic. I think they have something common, with the nazi idea of General plan east. Its the dehumanisation and the rasscisem. These ill ideas should support the idea ethnical cleansing is ok, with the right historical justification. Its not!!!! --Klastori 08:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not even mentioning politics here, I'm merely pointing to the linguistic aspect. And explaining to you that the name was not invented after 1945, contrary to what you suggest. //Halibutt 12:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

as far as i know there were no poles living in that area and this area was not under a somehow polnish adminstration in the last at least 900 years. on all old maps of europe that i know its named swinemuende before 1945. english maps were not using polnish exonyms usally.--Klastori 13:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

And what does it have to do with your claim that the name was invented after 1945? //Halibutt 14:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well because this name was not existing before 1945 its a polnish translation of of the origional name. but in the english speaking world predominantly the origional name is used in its english version Swinemuende which is also better to spell in english. I have the strong impresssion that some poles in wikipedia want to introduce these new polnish names for citys in former ethnical and political german areas. The reason behind that might be to cover the fact that the origional population of this these areas were victims of brutal ethnical cleansing by polnish forces. that the mayority of the today inhabitants in these areas live on stolen property. Houses that they have not payed for. Old furniture stolen from thier former legal owners fit well in many polnish living roomes in these areas. Nobody has been punished for these polnish warcrimes till today. No financial compensations for the stolen property have been payed to the 12 million former german inhabitants. I think that many poles have a bad feeling dicussing these issues because they know these true facts. So some poles here in wikipedia try to cover up these facts by intoducing polnish names for citys in these area. The idea behind that might be that if somebody is reading a polnish placename like swinmousice, nobody will raise question about the bloody history of these areas and the dark sides of polnish history. the polnish people were not allways the victims of history they were also prepetraters of brutal warcrimes on germans, ukrainians, lithuanians and others. sorry but that has to be sayed, because these singele sided views jumping on my nervs. --Klastori 16:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

external link situation

Given disagreement over the presence of unofficial website links, in particular Prof. Erwin Rosenthal anonymous re-addition of his website, I asked on Misplaced Pages:Village pump (assistance)#external link situation in Świnoujście, suggesting that per WP:EL, we link to the official website only, and to the DMOZ category for Swinoujscie, what with Profesor's website already listed there in the German and Polish language versions (he can always ask them to add it to the English version, as well). One of the suggestions given was to seek consensus here.

My position is that Prof. Rosenthal is strictly using Misplaced Pages to promote his website, having expressly refused, when asked, to permit adding content to wikipedia based on and attributing his website in references (see pl:Dyskusja:Świnoujście). His adding his website is also a conflict of interest under WP:EL. WP:EL suggests that in conflict situations, linking to an appropriate DMOZ category be considered instead. I would like to see Prof. Rosenthal edit on Misplaced Pages, or at least cooperate with Wikipedians in expanding articles. Then, a reference to his website would be both appropriate and warranted by Misplaced Pages content. Furthermore, I think it is inappropriate to allow an individual to force an external link to his own website, especially when he is unwilling to expand the Misplaced Pages article. This particular article is a magnet for commercial links (particularly those promoting tourism), and it would seem appropriate to make a principled stand in order to prevent spam link creep.

Thoughts? --Mareklug 15:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree, the amount of links should be keep to official websites to discourage spamming, common with cities.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Expanded on revenge by victims of German state

Also double naming.--Molobo (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I restored information about the fact that victims of Nazi Germany took revenge on Germans and all were sentenced as result, please don't delete it.--Molobo (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Please don't whitewash the history.
• They were officials of the Polish Secret Police.
• The "revenge" was to kill and torture more than 40 Civilians.
• The punishment was 4 years of prison for stealing potatoes, not so much for killing Germans.
• use the source and don't play it down. Pommerland (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Please don't blackwash history
• The article states clearly that they were former victims of Nazism atrocities
• The article states clearly that they were believing that they are taking revenge for what was made to them by the Germans. Their belief can be viewed under the fact of the level of support for Nazism in those regions and the fact that majority of Germans according to post-war polls supported Nazism.
• Thank you for confirming they were sentenced for their behaviour. Including ending life of a German Please don't delete it again. The theft of food sources in times of German made famine( a very serious crime) was indeed one of the crimes, but not the only one punished. Zientara was punished for eight years for attacking German population not for stealing of food resources.
• You are deleting information that is clearly in the source.That they were victims of Germans, that they were punished.Note that I will be using Polish version of the article which is more detailed then the English summary.--Molobo (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• The article cites "'The killers were young members of the security forces, people who had experienced the atrocities of war, the death of family members, concentration camps, forced labour. They had a lust for retaliation, and from victims they turned into the executioners', says Paweł Skubisz", which is (as I understand it) rather a possible explanation, not an ensured information. Every Pole in 1945 experienced the atrocities of war..., but does Mr. Skubisz realy know it concretely? I havn't found any concrete information about their experiences before 1945.
• Where they sentenced for murder or torture? Or were they sentenced for stealing potatoes?
• You deleted that they were officials of the Polish Police, not just some young men. Pommerland (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• I don't use the summary in English but two extensive articles in Polish of which the English summary is based on.
• The article states clearly that Zenatara was punished for eight years in prison for attacks against German population by Polish court.
• They were not members of Polish police but of communist Urzad Bezbieczenstwa which also murdered and tortured Poles.

Anyway right now the whole sentence is manipulated and incorrect. It makes no mention that two court trials took place after the events became known, it makes no mention that the events happened due to isolation of the area by winter, it makes no mention that the some of the accused comitted suicide and therefeore couldn't be sentenced. Also to put it frankly mthe fate of 40 Germans seems irrelevent to this article considering the demographic.--Molobo (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

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