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Georgia: Russian Cluster Bombs Kill Civilians

New report by Human Rights Watch. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 07:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon." This should also be mentioned in the cluster bomb article.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 07:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Do it. (Asking/noticing people usually brings nothing on Misplaced Pages.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 07:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Btw: bombing of Gori notbale enough, now? (Plus killing of journalists including the Dutch and injuring of the Israeli one and a lot of attention/reports in the media.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's all so strange. I'm absolutely sure, that the first time i've heard of cluster bombs, was report in russian media, accusing Georgians of their usage. There was video footage, showing unexploded allegedly western-made bomb found in Tskhinvali right after Russians took it. Wasn't that shown on some western media channel? And i didn't get it from the HRW report, but whether they've seen any evidence to russian cluster bombing, except photos and georgian doctors' statements? Cus, usage of cluster bombs for the purpose of destroying "warplanes producing factory" seems laughable to me - they're designed to take out uncovered people, not factory equipment safely hidden inside buildings. ETST (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It was standard practice in WWII to attack targets with a combination of high explosives, to destroy buildings, and cluster bombs, to kill first responders and make it harder for them to be rebuilt. I see no reason to rule out that the Russian Air Force used cluster bombs on the factory, particularly if the likes of Human Rights Watch says they did. It would make good strategic (though bad moral) sense; and Russia doesn't have the best record when it comes to inhumane armaments -- they used a lot of thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan and Chechnya. (And the US and UK use thermobaric weapons!? Ugh -- I had liked to imagine they were better than that...)

However, if you can find a reliable cite that the Georgians used cluster bombs in Tskhinvali, it wouldn't hurt to add that. That means a neutral cite, from a third party with a reputation for neutrality and no stake in the conflict -- Human Rights Watch, the Red Cross, Reuters. Other news services not affiliated with governments -- the BBC, the AP, etc. -- can probably be relied on, too; but the Russian media have been producing an awful lot of maskirovka in this war... ExOttoyuhr (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, such strategy is quite understandable - when we're talking about expected-to-be-prolonged wars that is. But in the context of a conflict, which i doubt anyone expects to last for more, than a month, be it in Russians' intent to leave Georgia, or conquer it(which i doubt, cus frankly speaking, be it that way, we would have seen it already; forgive me for my nationalism, that's certainly not the variant i want to see realized), such multi-layered destruction with its unnecesary long term disruption of factory work, while risking civilian lives, may be termed overkill, too gross, in my opinion, for actually taking place. Besides, i was mistaken(please forgive me, i sometimes get confused over "what media and when said who did what"; there are so much news on the topic, and wikipedia editing and news watching is not my main dedication at the time), in Gori, it was not a factory, it was said to be a military storage(i think. gotta verify me if you wanna make sure. i just keep on losing the links). I think, there will be nothing to restore, even after conventional bombing - poor building is likely to be torn apart by stored military explosives and munitions, the latter being damaged beyond usage, no matter what. Cluster bomb is useless against building, be it alone or following conventional one. OK, enough of my POV. What can i say, i was unable to find any links with evidence on western-made unexploded cluster bomb in Tskhinvali, but the people i've asked, seem to remember the mention of it in one of early reports, so i gathered this: statement on discovering the bomb after Georgian shelling was issued by S.Ossetia gvt on 9th of August, and could have been ref-ed at OS-inform(S.O. news agency)website, but yesterday it was cyberattacked, and the article in question was lost(though there are hopes, it will eventually reappear, as those people told me, based on their previous similar experience). So, if it have survived the attack, i might present it here, the only thing, troubling me, being you won't consider it a reliable source. ETST (talk) 18:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

FOX reporter Steve Harrigan underfire by Georgian Irregulars

Here's an interesting video from FOX News: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3029011&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://search2.foxnews.com/search?access=p&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=my_frontend&filter=0&site=video&proxystylesheet=my_frontend&q=Harrigan Jason3777 (talk) 01:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

à la guerre comme à la guerre; interesting news. --CopperKettle (talk) 02:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

This is surely off topic, but I'd note that if these are, in fact, "Georgian irregulars", it is exceedingly strange. There are so many oddities, in fact, I decided to note them all in a blogpostBdell555 (talk) 06:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Fox journalist says in the video that he was sitting with Russian forces before the attack came. It would be unusual for Ossetian irregulars to attack Russians. Esn (talk) 07:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

and the AP story says that "journalists gathered near the Russians tanks, taping and photographing them up close and attempting to talk to the soldiers" as well when "the situation turned ugly. South Ossetian militiamen, who are allied with the more disciplined Russian troops, appeared". Do you seriously think that "Georgian forces" would show up at the Russian checkpoint and "attack Russians"? With pistols and no armour? This after running from Russian armour for days? and that such a Georgian attack on Russians wouldn't be newsworthy to all the other media there?Bdell555 (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what happened, but I'd just like to add one more thing. The infobox currently mentions that there are Georgian volunteers (aka. "irregulars") as well, some from Azerbaijan. Esn (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is suspicious, without the rest of the video showing what they saw- when Georgian il-regulars literally aimed at civilians or they where just caught in the cross fire of a raid. Just speculating- but since Gori is undisputed Georgian territory why would Georgians fire on its own people- even if it was under occupation? To my understanding the ethnic tensions are between three+ groups the groups would not fired on its own civilians, so i think this is awfully suspicious.

Jade Rat (talk) 12:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

Total bias in "Humanitarian impact" section

This is for "South Ossetia" section on Misplaced Pages:

On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".

On August 8, the International Red Cross urged the combatants to make a humanitarian corridor to evacuate the wounded and civilians from Tskhinvali. According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left. International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties. According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."

The UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said that thousands of refugees left South Ossetia, mostly for North Ossetia in Russia within the first days of the conflict. About 140 buses, carrying thousands of refugees, had already arrived in North Ossetia on Friday evening, August 8, according to Reuters.

Human Rights Watch visited a camp for the displaced in the village of Alagir and interviewed more than a dozen people, including those from Tskhinvali and neighboring villages. Those from the city reported spending more than three days in the basements of their houses, unable to come out because of the incessant shelling. Residents of Satikhar village said that after the village came under heavy artillery fire on the night of August 7, all women, children and elderly (more than 100 people) started fleeing their homes. Most of them spent the next two days hiding in the woods and then trying to make their way toward the Russian border. Later, the Russian military in the village of Ger helped in the displaced civilians' transport to North Ossetia.

Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border. The United Nations refugee agency said that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia. According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9. According to western media who arrived in the city later, however, "everal residential areas seemed to have little damage" and "eporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas. According to Chicago Tribune, theater and typesetting school were heavily damaged or destroyed.

The fighting interrupted electricity and telephone service in Tskhinvali, and some inhabitants sheltered in basements with no access to water or medicines. Human Rights Watch interviewed an Ossetian man who noted that Ossetians had lost property "in Tskhinvali and other places".

Russian media reported on August 9 that several journalists were hiding in the basements, as they appealed to world society for a peace corridor to let them out of Tskhinvali.

At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said. Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings. and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.

Human Rights Watch entered Tskhinvali on August 13 and reported that it saw numerous apartment buildings and houses damaged by shelling. It said some of them had been hit by "inherently indiscriminate" weapons that should not be used in areas populated by civilians, such as rockets most likely fired from Grad launchers. It said there was evidence of firing being directed into locations where civilians frequently choose as a place of shelter, such as basements. Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.

What we got here?

1. SO is in Georgia. Why is "South Ossetia" section separate from "Georgia" section? It should be, say, "South Ossetia", "Gori", "Abkhazia" and "Elsewhere" sections, for example.

DISAGREE - Please tell me, we're not going to have this edit war of whether SO belongs to Georgia all over again. I'd have thought, it's already discussed more than necessary. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me good sir, but at this moment nothing changed an SO belongs to Georgia according to UN, Misplaced Pages (check out the maps of Georgia) and Georgia and every country in the world, possibly with the single exception of Russia. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

2. Most of this are unconfirmed reports of Georgian atrocities bia the Russian/"Russian citizien" propaganda - by now, this stuff should be in propaganda, and here only confirmed reports (UN, HRW, IRC, etc.). Russian propaganda (there's only Russian propaganda there) BS which has to be removed or moved to "Propaganda" section was highlighted by me in strike.

DISAGREE - I've seen nothing to date, which unarguably disproves any of your "strike-marked BS", and still all of them are official claims from official sources. And to put it into "Propaganda" section, or anything of the sort, you should wait, till it will be stated as such by all sides of the conflict(unlikely event in the near future, don't you think?), otherwise, it will be no more than (even if heavily supported) POV. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Wrong aproach. Please find anything which confirms these statements as facts. I havent's see ANY confirmation of any of these wild claims from UN, HRW, IRC, OSCE, or even a third-country journalists on a Russian military media trip. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

3. There's no mention but "according to western media" of the widespread looting and destruction of the ethnic Georgian villages, and the 15,000 Georgian refugees get less space then the wild ravings of V.V. Putin. This is not "according to western media", it's a fact (HRW, UN) which was only confirmed by media from the third-party countries too.

Well, maybe. But where this claims of "widespread" came from? I see no such word in HRW report, moreover it doesn't precisely account for actual spread. I think, we should list specific affected areas with refs to HRW(You did that once). And, knowing you, Captain, I urge you not to address the looters as men from regular Ossetian Militia, or any other Russia-affiliated regular troops, without at least adding "allegedly". ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Not isolated incidents - HRW researchers witnessed first-hand in several villages. They confirmed it's Ossetians, including a statement by an Ossetian officer saying they are destroying villages on purpose, to keep the Georgians from returning. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

4. As mentioned in the previous point, HRW quotations only regarding South Ossetians - and none of these disaproving Russian BS claims in the style of "total genocide".

DISAGREE - Goes to where your first point did. ETST (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, there's no mention(!) of the plight Georgians in Abkhazia. UNHCR via Reuters Reliefweb:

More than 700 frightened residents of the remote Khodori Valley in Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region have been escorted to safety in a two-day operation mounted by UN refugee agency staff. (UNHCR secures safe passage for Georgians fearing further fighting)

Why are they "frightened" and need to be evacuated from the territory controlled by "peacekeepers", where the Georgian army did not attack so there's no "revenge"?

Hmm... I dunno. Maybe it were advancing Russian Hordes screaming out their thirst for Georgian blood? Or maybe it were retreating Georgian soldiers' shouts(just like the ones, voiced in Gori for no apparent reason, except panic-inducing) of 'run for your life' fallen on ordinary Georgians' ears, which were struck already by Saakashvili's broadcasted screams of 'Russia invades us'? Sigh. I think, we'll never know... ETST (talk) 14:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By the same article: Right now there are 118,000 refugees, including 15,000 Georgians from SO (practically all of the Georgian population there) and 73,000 Georgians from "Georgia proper" (maybe including Abkhazia in the report), mostly Gori.

Of ~118,000 refugees, only 1/4 are Ossetians. The rest are Georgians. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I glad you've mentioned Gori. Again, i have to say, that i've seen nothing to date, that could justify people leaving Gori, except G-gov induced panic. And if we won't count Gori, then we'll get your statistic of 1/4 but this time it'll be in favor of Georgians. Of course, the Georgians are not where they're used to be, and nobody including me, will disregard that, but your implication of 1/4(O/G) ratio should be blamed on ""peacekeepers"" is, at least, unfounded. ETST (talk) 14:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There are, let's say, 30,000 Ossetian refugees and 15,000 Georgian refugees from South Ossetia, so hardly four times more Osetians. " G-gov induced panic" - you say, Tbilisi ordered the panicky rout of its own forces from Gori, making them abandon their guns, vehicles, barracks and army depots on purpose? This is very interesting, but I think people rather fled the guys who are now looting & burning, after the Georgian army abandoned them to the enemy mercy. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup, too

Also, what remains should be cleaned up, becuase it' badly written and mostly look like just copy-pasted (and doesn't matter if's in citation marks, it should be edited, it's supposedly encyclopedia and not a blog entry or a press article - if anyone wants to read more, they can click the link rwead in the source).

For example, the apparant copypasta of:

Human Rights Watch talked to a teacher at the local kindergarten, who said: "They were shooting from Grad rocket launchers, paying no attention to civilians living in these houses. We went deaf from the shelling. They simply wanted to wipe us off the face of the earth." The woman showed Human Rights Watch researchers the kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.

Should instad be:

HRW researchers found a kindergarten building hit by the Grad rockets, as well as fragments of the rocket itself.

If I'm back and nobody cleaned up this, I'll do it myself. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

DISAGREE - I believe, most of people do not look into ref's section, unless they're doing some research requiring strict verifictation, while, i feel, this witness' impression of what have happened is notable, and changes the whole tone of the section. ETST (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ha, they should. Are you going to post whole HRW reports here? Btw, the previous section manipulated sources: for example, the "Ossetian man" in Misplaced Pages complaining about the lost property in reality was an Ossetian militiaman saying why he's looting. Yes - I checked, and you should too - everyone should, instead of believeing Misplaced Pages editors. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

About moving to the "Propaganda" section

There's no such section, but should be (about the stuff which was presented as facts and provided as a justification for the invasion, but later turned out to be untrue). For example, we take the lie of:

According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia continued to bomb the hospital. Twenty-two wounded remained in the building, which reportedly had only two storeys left.

and the lie of:

According to Russia Today, more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital.

and make it:

• According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali's main city hospital was non-functional, and ambulances could not reach the wounded, while Georgia "continued to bomb" the hospital, which allegedly had only two storeys left and where 22 wounded were alleged to remain. According to Russia Today, "more than 150 people were trapped under the rubble of the city hospital". However, it turned out that the city hospital, which was hit in the roof by a single Grad rocket, did not collapse. The Grad rocket damaged part of the second and third floors of the building. The hospital, whose outer walls were also hit by either small arms fire or shrapnel, continued to operate in the building's basement until August 13, when all the wounded (of which 273 were admitted in during the fighting) were evacuated to Russia.

Instead, Misplaced Pages is promoting disproved lies as "humanitarian impact". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As i have already said, i don't think we're ever going to reach consensus on the matter of existence of such section. Moreover, as far, as i can see, you failed to provide any refs to your "turned out" proposal. Add them, and we'll discuss that further. ETST (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Already done (btw, the damage by the rocket in the hospital is not even visible from the outside). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Captain and his bloody hungry beast - How much people you need bleeding and dying to call in "humanitarian impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.102.43.111 (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Only exactly how many had bleed and die and not even one more. Hey, shouldn't you be actually happy that 2,000 people didn't die? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tagging "original research" to the section. The "propaganda" is the conclusion of Misplaced Pages editor. --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 17:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So remove these lies altogether. :shrug: It's actually kind of beating a dead horse anyway. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If there is to be a section of this kind, I think ”Propaganda” is too wide a term. I propose ”Information warfare” instead, or possibly ”Disinformation”, or ”Alleged disinformation”, if you like.--gnirre (talk) 21:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Unused for now

OK.

• On August 8, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stated: "Georgia’s actions have led to human losses, including among Russian peacekeepers... Georgian peacekeepers were opening fire at Russian peacekeepers with whom they were supposed to work together in... maintaining peace in the region. Civilians, women, children and old people are dying today in South Ossetia, and the majority of them are citizens of the Russian Federation".
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin alleged that Georgia was responsible for a "complete genocide."
• Eduard Kokoity stated from South Ossetia that the death toll has risen to 1,400 in South Ossetia.
• Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on August 9 upon his return from Beijing to Vladikavkaz claimed that "tens of people killed, hundreds wounded" and 34,000 refugees had crossed the Russian border.
• According to Russian sources, Tskhinvali was lying in ruins, and more than ten border villages were burnt to the ground as of August 9.
• At a makeshift hospital camp in Alagir on August 9, Prime Minister Putin was told that Georgian troops had set fire to a house with several young women inside. "They were rounded up like cattle, shut into the house, and set on fire. In another place, we saw a tank run over an old woman who was running away with two children. We saw how they slashed up an 18-month child," a refugee said.
• Russian reports cited the representative of South Ossetia administration who asserted that Georgian troops opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali in order to prevent people from hiding in the basements of the buildings during bombings. and that Georgian tanks ran people down and that soldiers took away women.

I didn't even chceck the Georgia section, but I guess it may has similar problems.(?) "Buses" link was dead. (And yes, I check the links and the content - everyone editing should.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And yeah, Georgia proper reports also should be cleared of media sensationalism and the possibly rumour-type stories of panicky refugees (which may be or may not be confirmed later) and only post the preliminarily confirmed reports (of which some might also be corrected later). For example, the Cluster bombing of Gori. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, remove all the supposedly Russian POV, and fill it up with your pro-Georgia crap... That's what you do, isn't it. As long as it's AGAINST Russia, it's not POV? I esspecially like how you removed all the Russian sources, yet left all the Georgian/Western POV. Hypocrites.--SergeiXXX (talk) 16:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And the examples of the "pro-Georgia crap" in this section now? You can't possibly mean the HRW and UN, can you? No, "it's not POV". See also what I wrote about the media reports, just above (should be not used if only second-hand, like "refugees say militiamen murder and rape" and the journalists didn't witness it). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I noticed you ONLY pointed out everything that argues the Russian side. That's POV.--SergeiXXX (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Because there was just no Georgian propaganda in this text. If you see any, point it in bold. Go on. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Humanitarian impact. South Ossetia.

"Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including Grad rockets, HRW couldn't definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent" What a bunch of crap. Why would Russian bomb South Ossetians? They are our friends. They are on our side. Its OBVIOUS that this was the work of the Georgians.--SergeiXXX (talk) 17:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you should learn what the Human Rights Watch is. ("Human Rights Watch has been criticized for perceived anti-Western, anti-China, and anti-Israel bias while others have criticized it for having a pro-Western and pro-Israel bias." - which means they're completely neutral, and just for the truth and the equal human rights everywhere.) The source said: "There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes." (And "why should Russian bomb" Grozny and the rest of Chechnya, repeatedly, for weeks and even months, in several battles in two wars? Were the Chechens and ethnic Russians and others, all "Russian citiziens" - not "your friends"? Less friends than the Georgian minority? Or would you say it didn't happen?) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"There were also several aerial bombardments of Gori from August 9 through 12 which could only have been carried out by Russian airplanes."

Ok. Sure, Russia bombed Gori. I'm not disputing that. I was talking about Tshinvali.--SergeiXXX (talk) 18:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Since Georgian and Russian forces use identical Soviet-era weapons systems including main battle tanks, Grad multiple-launch rockets, BMP infantry fighting vehicles and tube artillery, Human Rights Watch cannot definitely attribute specific battle damage to a particular belligerent, but witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described below.

Anything else? And didn't Russia bomb the Russian citiziens in Grozny - a much larger city on a much larger scale, and much longer too (to say least)? What's so supposedly different between the Russian army in Russia (Grozny) and the Russian army in Georgia (Tskhinvali) to make it even a littlest bit incredible? Russia literally(!) leveled much of a city of Grozny, but couldn't even damage a town of Tskhinvali? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And that's also what Mikhail Sakaashvili said, check it out here, he also compared it with the bombing of grozny. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly Grozny in any case. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

United Nations

• Why the United Nations have not made of any decision in the first days of conflict? About it in article it is not told...--Shift register (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Because we don't know either?--Jakezing (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, what matters is the United Nations Security Council which will not make any relevant resolution since both Russia and the USA have veto power.

So don't expect a major decision or a resolution from the UN.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there no self-policing?

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Russo-Georgian War. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Russo-Georgian War at the Reference desk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought Lihaas (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You are overreacting or misreading.

An editor complained to the fact that we don't have a decision from the UN yet, I explained that it is futile to expect one.

Maybe we should mention the fact the UN in this conflict is being paralyzed by the United Nations Security Council.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that something new? Seriously, is it a new thing that the UN can't get anything done because of russia's veto? --Jakezing (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

With citations, by all means do so. But the other comments certainly don't pertain to improving the article. Lihaas (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Page becoming too long

The article at present is 114 KB long. Please keep in mind the average standard article size. While it is generally 32 KB, some featured article in wikipedia are 70 KB long. But more than 100 KB articles should be divided. If necessary, split information from this article to new articles. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the article is bloated.

Some of the information is highly detailed and unecessary, we are listing the items present on Belarus' aid to South Ossetia!

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 15:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

One could start by spinning out the "statements" section.Bdell555 (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

AGREE This was discussed previously and appeared to have a consensus, but was reverted. Why do we need a "statements" section instead of incorporating them into the article? If the statement can not be addressed in other sections, already within the article itself, then all it is doing is making an already HUGE article into a monstrosity.--Jmedinacorona (talk) 20:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

No August 9 bombing of Gori in timeline

Only the August 12 one (which killed less people, even if a Dutch reporter among them).

Some of the most iconic images of the conflict. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC))

What's your point? what does it have to do with the articlE? Lihaas (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Gori being looted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=AGfCkPU1-TA

What do you think about this? Are those Russians?

Jade Rat (talk) 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC) Jade Rat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCmfj0uQXs&feature=related

I'm not sure what they are saying, but could someone please translate and confirm what i think this sounds. looks like? I know those are Russians, but what question dose the journalist ask that causes such defensible outrage from the Russian men? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Please FOCUS. what does this have to do with improving this ARTICLE?? Lihaas (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

An issue relevant to the article is whether Russians themselves are involved in looting, of just allied militias, but this video is said to describe Russian regulars and Russian operated vehicles. I don't know Russian, so can't comment on what is being said here.Bdell555 (talk) 23:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The second video you give is mainly expletives. Some more clear expressions: "They had everything... everything!" "And still they lost!" 132.68.248.44 (talk) 00:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

In the second video - they look like regulars, but may be Ossetians (white ribbon, supposedly one of them has a Georgian uniform). Who knows. The initial dialogue is: "What fork is that?" "Go away, OK?" "And the fork, where from?" "And what difference does it make to you? Go away, I am telling you!" "But I find it interesting - where does the fork come from?" (2nd soldier:) "We are turning back" "A golden fork, where from?" (3rd soldier:) "To the first - to the first car. TO THE FIRST CAR!" "Golden fork, where does he have it from?"

The second part is harder to make out because of the argument, but it starts with: "And you - why do you have a Georgian uniform?" "Because this is not a Georgian uniform". 132.68.248.44 (talk) 00:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It has a lot to do with the accusations made against South Ossetia, and Russia- Georgia claimed they had been looting in Gori, but Russia denied it and i thought the videos could be investigated into seeing if they where authentic and what side was responsible, weather they are Russians, rebels, or Georgians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jade Rat (talk • contribs) 12:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Greek diaspora

I call for the reversal of this edit which removed information ont he effect of the war on the Greek diaspora living in Georgia, as I cannot see any reason why this information cannot be in the article. I perceive the information as enhancing our encyclopedia. NerdyNSK (talk) 19:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this article is already way too big. If we include every nationality affected by this conflict and their respective governments actions to secure their safety it would be even worse in size. I can empathize with all peoples involved and displaced in the conflict but can't see where it adds any substantive improvement to the article itself. Peace. --Jmedinacorona (talk) 20:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian National Park on fire

The Borjomi Gorge, which is important for Georgia's economy, is deliberately set ablaze by Russians according to Georgia.

If there are "massive fires", independent sources will report them. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Reports about forced labour

They are several reports about forced labour being made by Russian forces on Georgian population. Is this a violation of international law regarding treatment of civilians by military ? --Molobo (talk) 19:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"They are cleaning up after themselves," said Mikhail Mindzayev, South Ossetia's interior minister. (...) "Labor even turns monkeys into humans," the Russian officer said. And this is what I call confirmation (by now "only" be media, though). They seem to be pretty open about this (Comrade Mindzayev in particular) - maybe they'll even isse an official statement. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Convention concerning Forced or Compulsory Labour Of course South Ossetia is not a reckognised country, which is convient as it can claim it has no obligation to the likely unsigned convention. However this won't be an escape-since Russian forces control the region all responsibilty falls on them. Then again-it is a threat to control SO politicians with and keep in line. Usefull and quite well thought over.--Molobo (talk) 19:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Good find Molobo, I added a sentence about it to the Humanitarian section. Hobartimus (talk) 19:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Another Russian official admission of war crimes

"Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves," said Major General Vyacheslav Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, which is occupied by the Russians.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/15/europe/ethnic.php --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

And therefore Russia needs to stay in Georgia to protect Georgians from those Ossetians. Nothing surprising here.--Molobo (talk) 00:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Who let the "Dogs of Wars" free is responsible for all their criminal activities! If Borisov has bad luck he will be in Den Haag sooner or later. In the mean-time regular Russian soldiers can be watched on TV looting villages in central Georgia. Elysander (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Occupation of Gori

It's really, really poor. Don't delete it, though. If noone does, I'll rewrite it eventually. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 20:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Journalists under Threat

Don't we need to create a new section about attacks on Press? Above there is a discussion about turkish reporters. Israeli journalist Tzadok Yehezkeli was shot in Gori. It was reported that dutch cameramen was killed (and so it was seen o TV). I have no dutch sources but here are some israelis:

• http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=SimpleSite/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1218446183878
• http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16895
• http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-27361-israelnews-israeli-journalist-injured-georgia-flown-home

and here are Youtube sources also about Dutch cameramen:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrHHMwtIE6Y&feature=user
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6EQlfTThkI&feature=related

Shmuliko (talk) 21:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The Dutch journalist was Stan Storimans of RTL, killed by cluster bomb at a media center in Gori already after Georgian army abandoned the city. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

http://nl.wikipedia.org/Stan_Storimans (I'll made Stan Storimans) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm Dutch and it was said on the news he was possibly killed by cluster bombing. Wife of Mikhail Sakaashvili Sandra Roelofs, herself Dutch, will attend his funeral (he was a famous cameraman). 62.163.232.175 (talk) 21:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I made a stub of an article, expand if you want. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. The link to this stub will help. :) Shmuliko (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm cleaning up the humanitarian impact section right now, and there was this:

• British journalist Andrew Wilson of The Times reported that he was assaulted and almost killed by Ossetian fighters.

Moved here. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoever might be collecting it (and there are MANY attacks on and robberies of the press), "Earlier, a Sky News team was robbed at gunpoint on the outskirts of Gori by men thought to be South Ossetian separatist militia." --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC News

It seems that someone insists on deleting material that might suggest that the piece by Paul Reynolds of the BBC concerning western media bias against Russia is questionable. Although you can click here for a full account of all the problems I see in this BBC story, that's not what I'm adding. Rather, I'm adding "Other western media editors disagreed with this view... with the Washington Post arguing that Moscow was engaging in 'mythmaking'" cited to here. Perhaps the deleter can explain why the BBC's views should be featured in this section and not the view of the Washington Post.Bdell555 (talk) 21:53, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia keep 44 georgian tanks

Here's the link , 44 captured georgian tanks , the russian army will keep them

http://www.rian.ru/osetia/20080816/150423062.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW (talk • contribs) 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny, because just yesterday they said 65 tanks. Will it be 22 tommorow? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You may want to actually read the first article... first. --Illythr (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, 65 found, 44 of those kept, 21 destroyed(irreparable?). 68.151.34.161 (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas (talk) 10:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Concern over major edit (including removing several sourced comments)

I'm concerned about the extent of this edit by "Captain Obvious". There appear to be several sourced comments that were removed here, without any discussion as far as I'm aware. If Captain Obvious feels these sources are unreliable, I'd like to hear more details. Richwales (talk) 00:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Compressed:

On August 13-14, already after the official ceasefire, Chicago Tribune, Los Angeles Times, Novye Izvestiya, The Guardian, The Independent, The Washington Post, and Sky News, among others, reported Georgian government and refugee stories that Ossetian and sometimes also other pro-Russian irregulars (including reports of Cossack and Chechen paramilitaries) and even some Russian regular soldiers were looting and burning Georgian villages in South Ossetia and near Gori. These reports sometimes also including stories of the other, crimes like kidnapping, rape and indiscriminate murder, and could not be independly confirmed; as BBC News reported on August 14, "The testimonies of those who have fled villages around South Ossetia are consistent, but with all roads blocked and the Russian military now in charge of the area, the scale of alleged reprisal killings and lootings is difficult to verify."

No need for citations or details of the refugee stories.--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:50, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

CLEANED UP humanitarian secion impact

Phew.

I must say: you guys write really badly.

Now, next: "Statements by involved parties" section SHOULD BE INTEGRATED INTO THE ARTICLE (some - the important stuff) OR DELETED (the rest). Do it yourselves. I'm not alone here. (Even if sometimes I think I'm the only one serious. Like right now.)

And, god damn it, put the titles, sources and dates in your sources! --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 00:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey!! Cool down Shakespere, DumZiBoT is here to take care of that tedious work.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Bias in the introduction again

The ending of this sentence in the curren version of the lead:

The war began after a ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia broke down (each side accused the other of breaking the ceasefire), and Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force leaving the the capital Tskhinvali largely destroyed.

seems POV in that it calls the city "largely destroyed" while the significant destruction is in the form of "patches", mainly focused on the Ossetian government area. Maybe something like: "... Georgia entered South Ossetia with a large military force, causing significant destruction to parts of the capital, Tskhinvali." could be a compromise. 132.68.248.44 (talk) 01:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

More POV: There's 3 images of destoyed buildings in tskinvali now, and only one of gori. One picture of tskinvali should suffice (per wp:undue). Also the descriptions that say "destroyed by Georgian bombardment" should be removed, because according mikhail sakaashvili they were actually hit by russian artillery. We're not allowed to decide whose right. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Saakashvili? You're joking. No, the description shall stay as it is. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, apart from damages of Tskhinvali, introduction does not mention destruction caused by Russian military attacks of Gori and Poti. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 02:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with Alsandro, Gori was completely devastated by Russiam bombardment. Iberieli (talk) 02:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Again and again - the official Russian POV is pushed into the intro. The same paragraph has been made much worse than it was before. Bolded are the most obvious violations of WP:NPOV:

The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Irrespective of who was responsible for the break down of ceasefire agreement between Georgia and South Ossetia, the war began after Georgia unilaterally launched a major military offensive against th republic of South Ossetia with a disproportionately large military force and killed atleast 2000 out of the 70,000 South ossetian civilians. In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was heavily damaged. About 24,000 to 30,000 South Ossetians fled into North Ossetia (in Russia) 11,190 of those went back after russian intervention in the war

• Ever heard about bilateral offensives?
• Disproportionately large? In proportion to what? To Russia's forces? To the intended (and not reached!) objectives?
• Do we still have to take the initial Russian propaganda about 2000 dead, dropped even by the Russian media?
• Why is Georgia suddenly "the country of Georgia"? Is there any doubt that it might be the U.S. state of Georgia that is involved?
• What happened to the spelling: "atleast", "ossetian", "russian", no full stop at the end...

132.68.72.110 (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"a dirty little war"

If you want to know the story of this war, see this Guardian article.Bdell555 (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Really biased article. There is nothing to be gained by portraing Russians as evil barbarians, nothing. It's in fact really dangerous.

It's way more constructive to try to understand why the Russians are behaving like this.

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be considered for incorporation into the article? Otherwise what the point of this post? Lihaas (talk) 10:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article is called "Russia's objectives.." but starts with a story of some marauders. No mentioning on Georgian invasion into Tskhinvali, its called "..doomed military incursion..". How tragic. Then follow ramblings about Putin's yearning for Soviet years and about some graffiti on Moscow wall (I tell you, most graffities on our walls are run-of-the-mill obscenities, no need to travel that far to read them). The article is the hysterical anti-Russian propaganda masterpiece, an is as far from political analysis as I am from North Pole. It paints the whole situation upside-down. "..secessionist provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which broke away from Tbilisi during the 1992-93 civil war.." - no mentioning of the cancelled autonomy and attempted militatry crackdown by nationalistic Georgian government. Then they speak of Crimea as some "target" of Russia, what an imagination. "On Friday, the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, condemned Russia's invasion of Georgia.." ..then went on to condemn U.S. invasion in Iraq and Guantanamo prison, began laughing wildly and was taked to the nearby hospital. Oh my God. Of course such cartoonish presentations, whether painted by Russian or Western propaganda, have no place in an encyclopedia article. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Just look at this marvelous phrase: "..Like the Soviet Union's invasion of Czechoslovakia 40 years ago this week, this invasion took place in August...". Yeah, and just like the Hitler's annexation of Austria, the War in Iraq started in March. Cool analogies. Let's scan the history for cozy dating. --CopperKettle (talk) 10:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Stolen picture(s?), lie(s?)

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Bombed_civil_building_in_Tskhinvali_2008.jpg
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Tskhinval_(South_Ossetia)_after_Georgian_bombardment_on_August_8,_2008.jpg

Author Unknown;
Permission (Reusing this image) Non-commercial use with required attribution; commercial use only with written permission of the author

what

Could anyone screen them on the copyright issues? My spider sense says "speedy deletion". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to using the photos per se (assuming no legal issues - are they used on another language Wiki?) but the source seems to be HIGHLY partisan. A partisan source is not necessarily unreliable of course, and "a photo doesn't lie" per se, but the description of that photo might. I think it is important to state that the photo is from a Russian source, and state that in the caption. Yes, that's unusual, but look at the claims on the osinform.ru website: "Georgian fascists’ atrocities ... outshone those of World War II Nazis". That's pretty strong language!Bdell555 (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Souhtossetia1.jpg was stolen AND miscaptioned (it's AP photo from Gori).

This media file may meet the criteria for speedy deletion.

The given reason is: This image was stolen from http://www.daylife.com/photo/08d3553gUx8AL/Gori and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed."

Can we have a ban for Mr. LokiiT for stealing and lying? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Second image seems to be ok. Photogrpahs - . The permission - http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=610#610. --Anton Gutsunaev (talk) 03:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

ruskies got hands on some us weapons

Russia ‘seizes US weapons’

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66770&sectionid=351020602 —Preceding unsigned comment added by FiReFTW (talk • contribs) 02:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should it be incorporated it into the article? Lihaas (talk) 10:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

That is far from being honest and fair- it implies that the cargo planes where filled with weapons, not humanitarian aid. In reality we had supplied Georgia with countless arm deals over the years (as well as many other countries), and in all likeliness supplied them with out more effective rifles for Iraqi deployed Georgian units.

We have supplied all NATO members with the M-16 rifle, and i don't think it should come as a surprise that Georgia received shipments. That being said, it is well known that Georgia had m-16s before the conflict began, as well as Israeli weapons, and Russian weapons.

Speculation: Why would we make the situation worse by supplying rifles that would make no real impact on the outcome? Against the overwhelming odds what good would a few rifles do?

Image propaganda

The following image which was removed and falsly stated that the destroyed appartment buildng was in Tskhinvali, in fact it was in Gori. This image was stolen from and was taken by Bela Szandelszky, clearly the uploader lied about the source which claims "Osinform." This image was stolen from AP Photo and GettyImages which is under strict copyright laws, see link above, also the description section was falsified, the image description from which this image was stolen, states: "A Georgian man walks by his destroyed apartment building in the city of Gori, Georgia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Russia ordered a halt to military action in Georgia on Tuesday, after five days of air and land attacks sent Georgia's army into headlong retreat and left towns and military bases destroyed. More than 2,000 people were reported killed". I want to ask all neutral contributors to PLEASE monitors such gross violation of copyright laws, falsification of the mage description (to make one side more victim while vilifying the other). This is yet another example of how propaganda and falsification of data is carried out by some users on this article due to latest crisis. Please help us to prevent such falsification, lie and provocations on Wiki. Iberieli (talk) 02:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we should assume good faith and keep in mind the possibility that it was rather osinform.ru that lied.Bdell555 (talk) 03:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

disinfrom.ru. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I did not locate that image of Gori on separatist web site "Osinform" Hence the good faith. Iberieli (talk) 03:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Good faith" regarding whom - the uploader? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 03:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I found that image on a messageboard, the person who posted it said it was from the website I cited. I, not being able to read Russian, couldn't double check. Please calm down and stop making personal attacks and accusations of bad faith.LokiiT (talk) 03:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You could have double-checked by running the source page through Babel Fish or Google Translate instead of trusting some random messageboard poster as a reliable source. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Aid

I think there should be a separate article on Aid after the 2008 South Ossetia war. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 03:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be a criteria filtering which aids are worth mentioning. Right now even Lithuania's modest aid of 86,000 euros is being mentioned.

Are we really trying to keep track of every single aid sent to Georgia?

⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ Talk 04:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Timeline: Large changes proposed.

Proposed revision and restructuring of timeline. Because the timeline now has a main article link, this one should be highlights of events. There is room for cuts, but my proposed changes emphasize style here. My intention is to keep information the same and only to improve the section’s writing.

Please assume good faith.

There have been changes in this timeline since I began reworking it, so I have not intentionally left out later changes. Feel free to update this proposed revision. I offer them on the discussion page in the spirit of collaboration.

A timeline should be written in the present tense, but I am not personally invested in the tense. A timeline should be written in a clipped style, different from the body of the article. Thus my rewrites usually place the subject and action first. I may have unintentionally changed the meaning and even the dates in an attempt to clarify. For example, “By morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city” – so this would now be the next day, after the start of hostilities, August 8th, right? The UN meeting occurs during the night of the seventh, but after midnight, thus on the 8th. Are we going to use New York or Georgia time? 1:15 a.m. in NYC is (I believe) 10:15 in the morning in Georgia. And another issue for fact checkers, please check that the footnotes remain correct – some started out wrong. There are still contradictions and repetition that needs to be changed. There are important military issues that are left out and others that don’t need to be here.

I have placed my comments in parentheses.

(The first paragraph does not belong here. It belongs in a general introduction to the subject. I suggest removing.)

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are territories within Georgia that individually declared independence from Georgia and have each been acting in de facto independent capacities since the early 1990s. Neither state has been diplomatically recognised by any member of the United Nations. Georgia has offered limited autonomy to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but both have declined.

August 1, 2008: intermittent low level conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia escalates. Georgia and South Ossetia trade accusations on ceasefire violations.

August 3: South Ossetians (civilians ?) evacuate into Russia. (SOURCE?)

August 5: Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warns that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts.

August 7: Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili orders a Georgian ceasefire, but fighting intensifies. President Saakashvili vows to restore Georgian control over the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and the breakaway territory of Abkhazia. Georgia launches a night offensive against the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. Heavy shelling leaves the city in ruins; Russia characterizes the resulting humanitarian crisis "a genocide by Georgian forces." Russian media extensively covers Georgian shelling. Citing reports of up to 2,000 dead in Tskhinvali, Russia military intervenes, maintaining its mission is to defend South Ossetians.

Subsequent reports dispute reported civilian casualties.

(The preceding sentence does not belong here in this timeline, because it refers to later discoveries. I leave it to collective editors to politely exchange commentary over the proper place for the phrase.)

August 8: Georgia announces in the morning that it has surrounded the capital and captured eight South Ossetian villages. An independent Georgian TV station announces that the Georgian military controls the city.

8 a.m. (Georgian time, 11pm U.S. EST) Russia requests a United Nations Security Council meeting; 10:15 (Georgian time, 1:15am US EST), meeting opens, with Georgia attending. Council members cannot reach consensus on a statement calling for an end to hostilities.

(ADD DATE/TIME) Russia troops cross Georgian border, into South Ossetia.

(This section needs specific dates. The previous version – “in five days of fighting” – does not fit with the rest of the day to day timeline, though it may work later in a shorter summary.)

(ADD DATE?) Russian forces capture the regional capital Tskhinvali.

(ADD DATE?) Russian military pushes Georgian troops out of South Ossetia. OR Georgia retreats from its offensive in South Ossetia.

(ADD STARTING DATE?) Russia carries out airstrikes against Georgia’s military infrastructure far beyond disputed territories.

August 9: Russian Navy in the Black Sea sinks Georgian missile boat following a reported attack. Georgian ships retreat. Abkhazian forces open a second front in the Kodori Valley, the only Abkhazian region remaining under Georgian control.

August 10: BIGFOOT FOUND IN CAUCACIAN MOUNTAINS!!! WAR STOPS FOR A DAY!!! NOTHING HAPPENS!!

(Can we fill in this date?)

August 11, Russian paratroopers in Abkhaz attack Georgian military bases, cutting off Georgian troops in South Ossetia from reinforcements. The Russian military maintains they are not part of the Abkhaz assault on the Georgian forces. Russian forces destroy a military base outside Abkhazia near the town of Senaki. The Georgian government reports Russian military action in port of Poti and the town of Gori. Russians shell Gori; deaths include Stan Storimans, a Dutch reporter from the RTL channel.

(The following sentence does not belong here unless it comes from a source.)

Since Gori is along Georgia's main highway, its occupation by Russian forces would cut Georgia's lines of communication and logistics in two.

Most international observers call for a peaceful solution to the conflict. The European Union and the United States propose a joint delegation to negotiate a cease-fire. Russia rules out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdraws from South Ossetia and signs a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

August 12: Russian President Medvedev reports ordering military operations in Georgia to end. Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze maintains that Russian jets continue to target civilians. The British Daily Telegraph journalists report seeing no Russian troops in Gori. Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says “The status quo in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is no longer possible.” Russian president Medvedev approves a six-point peace plan brokered in Moscow by President of the Council of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy. Russian troops surround Georgian port of Poti.

August 13: Russian tanks reported at Gori. Russian troops reported camped on road one hour north of Tbilisi. Georgian troops reported to occupy same road six miles (about 10 km) closer to Tbilisi. All remaining Georgian forces, including at least 1500 civilians from the Kodori Valley, retreat to Georgia proper.

August 14: Russian occupation of Poti reported; Russia denies occupation; New York Times claimed that some Russian statements depend on the "technicalities of the definition of occupation." Russian troops fail in attempt to return Gori Georgian authorities. Attempt to institute joint Georgian and Russian police patrols in Gori breakdown, apparently due to discord among personnel.

August 15: President Saakashvili signs the 6-point peace plan in presence of United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Reuters reports that Russian forces advance within 34 miles (55 km) of Tbilisi, the closest yet during the war; they stop in Igoeti. The advancing

Russian convoy includes 17 APCs, 200 soldiers, including snipers, a military ambulance, and initially, three helicopters.

August 16: Guardian and the BBC confirm that the Russians had occupied Poti, as well as military bases in Gori and Senaki, destroying at least six Georgian ships and seizing large amounts of United States-made Georgian weaponry. The general staff in Moscow states, "There is a presence of our armed forces near Gori and Senaki. We make no secret of it." "They are there to defuse an enormous arsenal of weapons and military hardware which have been discovered in the vicinity of Gori and Senaki without any guard whatsoever."

U.S officials report Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s pledge to "faithfully" implement the ceasefire agreement. According to a U.S state department official, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned the minister after convincing Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to sign the EU-brokered ceasefire. An official reports that the Russian government had required President Saakashvili sign the agreement first.

(Note: as with other sources, this one does not quite match the text. The widely reported pledge to “faithfully” implement the ceasefire does not appear in this BBC report. I leave it for others to correct, even as I revise the prose.)

Adjpro (talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The factual, but probably not as terse style is better suited for the linked Timeline article http://en.wikipedia.org/Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war. More narrative style of the timeline in the main article makes it easier to read and matches the rest of the article. I would rather see the section renamed in future to something like August, 2008: Conflict Escalation. Other than that, your proposed changes make some points which should be discussed in the context of the Timeline article. Most of Misplaced Pages timelines seem to be using UTC.Gleb (talk) 06:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia started withdrawal from South Ossetia

Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/pullout/

USA media http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLH49224220080817

British media http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566199.stm

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 07:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some refutations of this information

Russian media http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/17/nopullout/

--195.98.173.10 (talk) 09:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Supposedly only to start in earnest Monday. Verification needed. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Warning: Zero Tolerance rule for dodgy image uploads

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

We apparently have had serial problems with uploads of non-free images of the war under faked or missing or otherwise dodgy licenses, by multiple accounts.

I'm now instating a zero-tolerance policy for such uploads here. Enough is enough. Please keep in mind that almost every image being taken of this war that turns up on this or that website will be non-free. You can't upload these. Forget it. No matter how badly you want to use them, you just can't.

Any account found uploading Ossetia-related war images with missing or wrong source or licensing information, here or on commons, will be blocked immediately, indef, and without prior warning.

If in doubt about whether an image is okay for upload or not, ask first, upload later.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

RIA Novosti allows us to use its materials (including photos) for free in "public free reference, educational and country-research (страноведческих) resources". Why can't we upload them to English Misplaced Pages (not to WikiCommons)? Alæxis_¿question? 10:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We'd require a license that allows free re-use for any purpose, including commercial. Failing that, the only avenue would be "fair use", but that is generally only possible for images that are in themselves so famous ("iconic") that we have whole articles, or at least sections, about them as photographic works. Fair use must include a "transformative" use component, i.e. we must be talking about the image as such, not just using it as a vehicle to illustrate something else. War photographs just to illustrate what the war looked like aren't covered; see WP:NFC, section "unacceptable use". Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try to find some free images of Tskhinvali... Btw I think it'd be POV to have only photos of Gori in this article. Alæxis_¿question? 11:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Go to Tskhinvali and make photos. This is how Misplaced Pages works. (Unless there are some photos by te US Gvt agency - American law makes them public domain.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I again advise you to mind WP:NPA. Thank you for your consultation on how this project works. Fyi, I've uploaded 600+ photos to Commons, about half of them made by myself. Many of them are for Abkhazia-related articles. I haven't yet been to SO but when I will I'll certainly make some photos. Alæxis_¿question? 12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Personal what? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Never mind... Btw, aren't you User:HanzoHattori? Alæxis_¿question? 13:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Photos

More photos:

http://lenta.ru/photo/2008/08/16/calm/

Most of them are Abkhazians and South Ossetians, but there are Russians and Georgians as well. -- 91.77.88.175 (talk) 10:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

... and please see the section just above. Hands off. These are AFP pictures. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've just liked this one. Wanted to share etc. After all to be neutral one needs to understand that no matter which side it is, soldiers are people. Most of them fight not because they like to kill or loot or whatever, but because they have somebody to protect. -- 91.77.88.175 (talk) 10:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why not? Maybe not fit for the Commons, but why not place them in the article? --CopperKettle (talk) 10:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

See answer in section above. And recent commercial news agency pictures like those from AFP are a no-no, under any circumstance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Edit Waring Prevention

Cityvalyu Edits on Aug. 17

I don't want to get caught in an edit war, but the majority of the edits made to the article today by Cityvalyu have so unbalanced it to a pro-russian point of view and seriously calls into question the further neutrality of it. I reverted one edit he/she made taking Georgia's stated reasons for initiating the attack on S.O. out of the Intro. section, and leaving only the reasons stated from Russia. This type of rampant nationalism/bias/vandalism(?) editing needs to stop to preserve the integrity of this article. --Jmedinacorona (talk) 12:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok he reverted my UNDUE and changed it back to his POV citing that it does not carry weight with other statements in the Intro. The Brig Gen Col was the Senior official of the Ministry of Defense in the area and in charge for overseeing peacekeeping operations for the Georgian Ministry of Defense. I'm NOT getting involved in an edit war nor am I going to press my own POV of the matter. It's up to the editors of this article to reach further consensus on the matter--Jmedinacorona (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

in respose, let me post the discussion in my talk page below(Cityvalyu (talk) 13:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)):

brigadier statements not equal to president/ prime minister statements

The Brigadier was the Senior goverment offical for Georgia in S.O at the time of the attack, as well as, being the person in-charge of the Georgian peacekeeping forces in S.O.. I believe his statement as the commander in the area holds a LOT of weight.--Jmedinacorona (talk) 12:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

one of the numerous brigadiers not equal to president/ primeminister..he is not even the defence minister..revert to combatant statement section..nevertheless if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too Cityvalyu (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

nevertheless your reverting it? If you remember your comment about my "owning the english language" made on my user page, now your acclaiming your owning of the 2008 South Ossetia war article? Your revert summary saying that a Brig Gen Col who happens to be in-charge of troops in the area doesn't carry as much weight as the president/prime minister is your OPINION and has not been weighed by consensus considering it has been there for almost 24 hours without debate. Obviously his opinion, which is referenced adequately, mattered to the source which it was taken from.--Jmedinacorona (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

YOUR BAIT IGNORED..should i revisit the old issue of "your miraculous ability to talk using something else"'?!!..i WONT ..

COMING BACK TO THIS ARTICLE, i find that no edit summary to justify your actions..i didnt own as my edits conform to neutrality clauses of wiki.. see above reply "if you want to add russian peacekeeper statements and south ossetian peacekeeper statements (&all the staements by russian brigadiers in charge of a particular operation), feel free to add (AFTER ADDING similar RUSSIAN AND REPUBLIC OF SOUTH OSSETIA statements for maintaining NEUTRALITY) that PARTICULAR georgian brigadier's opinion too "Cityvalyu (talk) 13:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

An attempt to take the matter from this talk page to users talk pages? Regardless, his edits are still POV and biased. See cited references and compare to edits. Highly biased and POV. He even states not to revert one of his edits on controversial subjects without first taking it to the talk page for consensus???? Then perhaps he should follow his own advise. I'm through with it. Other editors beware. Make your edits while he is online with care because if they don't adhere to his POV he will take charge. Have a nice day editing all. --Jmedinacorona (talk) 13:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

= inserting biased claims with spurious references

Im this edit Cityvalyu introduces claims that Georgia's initial invasion killed 2,000. Apart from also introducing bad POV language, the two external links which are provided to support this are completely spurious in that the first a) is based on a statement by Kokoity, and b) mentions 1,400 at the most (the headline in the reference is false) and the second external link basically doesn't deal with this issue at all. So I made two edits reverting this introduction of very poorly sourced biased material to what I found in an edit several hours ago (which was better still in that it didn't contain the POV term disproportionally). Cityvalyu reverts with the edit summary of "read previous edit summaries to understand why it looks different from 6 hours before..edit summary false?" I do not know what to respond to this as I am unable to see what previous edit summaries Cityvalyu is referring to. __meco (talk) 13:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

You should have looked further up the talk page under the section "Edit War Prevention." I've already had my battle with him. I'm done. --Jmedinacorona (talk) 14:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent propaganda edit fight

user:Cityvalyu has recently implemented mass biased changes in the introduction text and he or she seems to have violated Misplaced Pages's three-reversion limit. The guy should be prevented from polluting the article with pro-Kremlin bias. I would also ask the users who are allowed to edit the article to place the sign that shows that the current text is not neutral and factually accurate.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

no spurious reference inserted..i have not reverted anything thrice or i have not violated 3rr..please check your claims! all edits well explained to maintain NEUTRALITY..edit summaries can be seen adjacent to the edit time in the history page..please use edit compare option available in the history page..and avoid biased personal abuse USING LIES..Cityvalyu (talk) 14:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

requesting admin to delete this whole section harping on personal hatred attacks on an editor for sake of following wiki policy of neutrality and 'referenced' truth..Cityvalyu (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not been around this article all day to be able to verify the assertions by other editors that you are massively involved in propaganda editing (i.e. POV pushing). I have only counted one incident which I have detailed above. However, this incident was grave in my opinion, and your adamant insistance on protecting your (in my view) outrageous edit makes me question whether you should be prevented from editing on this topic altogether. So you go ahead and request that an admin remove this section and I'll start reading up on pertinent guidelines for having a user who abuses his editing privileges barred from editing on this subject. __meco (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

editor hatred shall not come in the way of stating neutral referenved facts (which need not be georgian/US pov)..please feel free to cite any error on my part..note that your (meco) edit above contains unproven lies against me!! you can also notice that other than you two, other valid users have accepted my non neutral view..see the number of editors who have edited since then..stop personal bashing in an article's talk pageCityvalyu (talk) 15:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian army carbines

We have a little illegal arms deals scandal brewing. Photos from S Ossetia show Georgian soldiers armed with Heckler & Koch G36 carbines, which have never een allowed fro export. source in Gemrna: here. Might be better in the article about Georgian miliatry, as it only circumstantially pertains to this war in particular. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, seems that US have been pumping Georgia with arms. --CopperKettle (talk) 15:27, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

First combatants to cross any border and noted by the side doing it was not Georgia.

The first side to note combatants crossing the border was the North Ossetian volunteers. They said these "volunteers" where going into S. Ossetia. My question is, "Why is this not in the introduction of the article?". These people where armed Russian citizens that lived in Russia. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Which border? Georgian troops didn't cross internationally recognised borders at all (there was no invasion of Russia). The border between Georgia proper and South Ossetia was crossed first by Georgians. Alæxis_¿question? 13:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia did not cross the Russian border. The border between internationally recognised Georgia and Russia was crossed by Russians (illegally) prior to Georgia crossing their provincial border with South Ossetia.PlanetCeres (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you bring sources confirming this? afaik volunteers from NO began coming to SO in response to a Georgian offensive. Alæxis_¿question? 13:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes! Even though the Russian sources are being deleted. (May have to use cache's and archives.) Not according to dated and timed articles. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, then please show them here at the talk at first. Alæxis_¿question? 13:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy Use the title in quotes in Yahoo/Google search if it has been deleted. PlanetCeres (talk) 13:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC) These troop movements seem to coincide with the evacuation of children. But, that is OR. ;)PlanetCeres (talk) 13:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You're right of course. Alæxis_¿question? 14:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please don't add this to the lead section - this information belongs to the background, since the conflict is defined within a 7.08-ongoing time scope. Same with other details that can go into their respective sections. Also please avoid long citations in the lead. --Illythr (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This incursion has ref from both sides and is relevant.PlanetCeres (talk) 15:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted

...that in the South Ossetian War article there is a reference to the fact that

Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs website is currently hosted on Estonian server.[180

This is on a server in the US State of Georgia [Atlanta}

It is hosted by a compnay named Tulix {not Tulip...as misreported in some news sources). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.214.205 (talk) 14:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Needs Section on US Interests

Considering that the US held military operations with Georgia just before this, that the US wants to put ABM's in Georgia, President Bush's various pronouncements, McCains pronouncements and that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili says "he talks to McCain, a personal friend, several times a day," it seems there needs to be such a section. (According to Dan Eggan and Robert Barnes, McCain's Focus on Georgia Raises Question of Propriety, Washington Post, Friday, August 15, 2008, A16. McCain also announced this week that two of his closest allies, Sens. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (I-Conn.), would travel to Georgia's capital of Tbilisi on his behalf, after a similar journey by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice....The extent of McCain's involvement in the military conflict in Georgia appears remarkable among presidential candidates, who traditionally have kept some distance from unfolding crises out of deference to whoever is occupying the White House. Carol Moore 15:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Children evacuation

It should be noted that the children began to be evacuated on the 2nd; and, was over by the 5th. Prior to a "Georgian aggression".

1. "Medvedev's official statement (August 8)".
2. Cite error: The named reference complete genocide was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. "South Ossettia leader says 1,400 killed in conflict". The Independent. Reuters. Retrieved 2008-08-09.
4. Путин: из Южной Осетии в Россию перешли 34 тысячи беженцев, RIA Novosti, August 9 2008.
5. Cite error: The named reference rt was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
6. Cite error: The named reference rb was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
7. "Peacekeepers say Georgian forces shelling apartments in S.Ossetia". Retrieved 2008-08-11.
8. "Georgia opened an irrigation canal to flood the basements of Tskhinvali". Retrieved 2008-08-11.
9. "Civilians perish as Georgian troops torch church".
10. "British journalist in brush with death in Georgia", The Times, 2008-08-13.
11. Russia Troops Violate Ceasefire, Sky News, August 13 2008

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