Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:30, 1 September 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Hello Jimbo

Hello Jimbo... Do you ever visit this site and write stuff? :) If so could you respond to this?

Thanks, Anonymous

Adminship of user:ChrisO

I'd like to question the adminship of user:ChrisO. This after arrogant behaviour concerning this template, such as pushing controversial edits through while ignoring discussion, using page protection tactically to consolidate his own edits and changing policy for specific purposes. In my view he is using his adminship to further his political views. . --83.249.240.108 (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Just so you're aware, Jimbo doesn't go around desysopping people just for the hell of it. If you have a legitimate complaint against an admin, bring it up on WP:ANI, not here. J.delanoy_adds 00:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be true that ChrisO misused admin tools, by protecting (and unprotecting) the page in February 2008 and April 2008, but I have seen no recent abuse of tools on Template:Countries of Europe, and ChrisO hasn't even edited the template since April (though he is still active on the talkpage). Asking Jimbo to de-sysop, based on something that happened a few months ago, seems a bit extreme, not to mention that Jimbo prefers that the community handles these kinds of situations (except in very very rare cases such as with the de-sysopping of User:Bedford). I do agree that ChrisO should not have been using tools at that template though, since he was not an uninvolved admin. Other than that, this issue is fairly stale. If there are other cases of ChrisO abusing tools, the best way to handle it is to bring them up (with diffs) at his talkpage. If the problems continue, a thread at WP:ANI or a Request for Comment would be the proper way to proceed. If there was community consensus that ChrisO had abused tools, he could choose to resign, or, as a last resort, the community could request de-sysopping via the Arbitration Committee. --Elonka 00:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

For transparency I would like to add that ChrisO opened Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Elonka. This was followed up with an administrative recall request, started by me, that gained support of 31 editors asking Elonka to resign or stand for reconfirmation. She has not complied for reasons stated. Criticism of ChrisO by Elonka should be understood within the context of these events. Jehochman 07:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, did anybody tell ChrisO that they were being discussed here? Jehochman 07:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've been informed, though I'm displeased that Elonka didn't bother to ask for my side of the story or apparently do more than the most cursory investigation. The short story is that back in February, two IP editors were edit-warring on Template:Countries of Europe; I semi-protected it, they resumed as soon as semi-protection expired, Ckatz re-semi-protected it, they resumed again, I semi-protected it again for a longer period. Nothing improper or exceptional about that. The complaint is essentially malicious. My offence seems to have been to argue against the complainant's view on Template talk:Countries of Europe that South Ossetia and Abkhazia should be added to the template. This is really nothing more than an attempt at harassment by someone who disagrees with my advice on the matter. I've certainly never intervened against him or his POV in any way. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Body of Pelosi letter sent out is now online

As a follow-up to the full letter to Nancy Pelosi sent on the 23rd, I just wanted to let you know that the body of that letter is now on my user page and in the Wikipedians against censorship page. I also told the censorship page that you said "Bravo" in your response. Chris (talk) 01:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, I am now up for the links up for Pelosi and another I sent out in July 2007 is up for deletion which I expected. Congrats on University of Alabama beating Clemson University last night. Chris (talk) 23:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

AOL ip addresses indefinitely blocked

Hello. Just wanted to notify you and everybody else who monitors this page that AOL ip addresses have been indefinitely blocked. I've used them to edit for 2 years. It would be nice to have edit privileges restored. 63.3.15.130 (talk) 08:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what's wrong with people, blocking all these IPs *solely* because they are public (I.P edits are anonymous anyway - right? If abuse happens, I.P. can be blocked and appealed later if nessecary.) But, I think when an I.P. is blocked for being public a user should still be able to create an account, etc. Some users don't have their own copmputers - or may have simply forgotten a password. I.P. is irrelevant in password recovery because the password still goes to a personal e-mail address.Rayvn (talk) 19:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Stable versions in German Misplaced Pages

Hello there!

Now as the German users' voting on stable versions is drawing near its end, it is quite clear that there is a majority for stable versions as default. Quite a large part of the community though is voting strictly against this, more precisely about a third of those who partake. The arguments between traditionalists and quality managers are fierce, the gap between the groups is easy to spot.

I'm a traditionalist. I actually believe in 'You can edit this page right now'. If the changes come in the German Misplaced Pages (yes, we just love to be the guinea pig here...;)), something of the free spirit will be lost. Already there are huge prejudices encountered by IP-users, these will ultimately congeal into a class system of edits, where some are deemed more worthy than others according to who entered them. Not to mention the huge amount of work which has to go into checking articles to not only provide stable, but also up-to-date articles, as well as the pressure on everyone to chime in to the new sound. In a nutshell, a principle considered 'sacred' is about to fall, and the community seems to be cleft.

I feel like the Misplaced Pages is closing its gates, and I am not certain it will be able keep its spirit along the chosen way. Is this really what you intend? When will you change your statement of principles then, once a new user, an IP user is not able to edit a page as they want any more, but can only make suggestions to someone who's got more rights than them in 'here'? Cheers from Germany, --Gabardine (talk) 23:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think reliability's more important than freedom - even if content's free, if it's not reliable it's worthless. – Thomas H. Larsen 05:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

And I think that, done well, stable versions allows a lot more freedom for anonymous ips, not less! The front page of the site can be edited by the general public for the first time in years!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:54, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

If this change gets through, absolutely nil can be edited directly by IPs and newly logged-ins anymore. Everything will need confirmation.

Concerning the main page: Suggestions can already be made on the discussion page. If one really thinks editing the main page is such a juicy treat to everyone, it would be logical to assume lots of people will try to do that. You'd then of course have to check each and every one of these edits. I presume you'll get a jumble of information and huge edit wars, and the outcome will be that the main page would have to be virtually closed again, as after a hundred non-confirmed changes made by IPs hardly a user will be able to confirm all this, no-one will have a clue what to keep and what to delete. Honestly, I think this is way too big a price to pay. These changes are immensely time-consuming and to me seem apt to cleave the community, as well as killing the very core idea of Misplaced Pages. --Gabardine (talk) 11:41, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Last I heard, stable versions can be configured in a wide range of possibilities and further can be applied selectively to some articles and not to others. I'm sure we can figure out some configuration that will wind up being an asset to our mission. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Where the Wiki fails

James,

all respect and gratitude to what you have created. Please do not feel that I am in anyway denigrating it in what I wish to post today. If I did not passionately support the project, I would not waste my time doing so.

You and the Misplaced Pages have had, and deserve, all your praise but, after several years and countless hours of involvement, I would like to briefly address the matter of "Where the Misplaced Pages Fails" because, in my documentable experience, I can honestly say there is a dangerous vein of unaccountable systemic failure that appears to run right the way up even to the bureaucrat level. And one, specifically, that in any other more accountable environment, such as academia, would be racial hate crime. Given the responsibility of the Wikipedian community as a provider of education to entire generations of world internet users, I wish to put this very seriously to you, purposefully knowing that it will be read by many including those currently abusing its open, goodwill system. To do so, I am going to require some degree of amnesty as since June I have been working on a project Documentingabuse which has incurred me considerable wrath. I am also going to have to ask for "good faith" from certain admins that certain histories are not "disappeared" in the meanwhile ... as I have seen happen.

In June of this year, after watching the scenario going on the highly political Korean-Japanese related topics for over a year, I decided to engage with one of the main proponents, a Korean-American Caspian blue (talk · contribs), and document the modus operandi of control and manipulation that is being fairly widely used across more fringe, nationalistic or passion inducing topics. I am neither Japanese nor Asian. I have no reason to have any anti-Korean bias but it does seem arise often as a Korean issue which I cant understand from a cultural perspective. After 4 years or more involvement, and having "cut my teeth" working on a topic about a cultic religion which wished to engage in concerted media control, I have encountered in the broadest manner how the system can be abuse by "skilled" individuals or small "tag teams", how content can be easily manipulated and, ultimately, not just how powerless the system is against such dedicated efforts but how probably over stressed admins actually support it.

Given Google's love affair with the Misplaced Pages, and hence its influence upon the young and future generations, I feel that it is seriously failing in its responsibility in such contentious areas. By allowing willfully abusive practises to go not just unchecked but even to be rewarded, especially those which have an inherent race hate element, the Misplaced Pages is spreading not knowledge but planting and encouraging seeds of racial hate for the future.

What I set out to do was to document the experience of a new and reasonably balanced and informed individual coming to the Misplaced Pages to contribute. What I think I have now sufficiently documented is how such individuals go about destroying the goodwill the Misplaced Pages depends on from not just newcomers but also exactly the type of contributors it needs, informed individuals with access to academia and other archives rather than just Google and blogs. In my opinion, the Wiki should be academic and rise above racial disputes not be used for propaganda. Your response is welcome. Despite being an adult with responsibilities, I am willing to put in more of my time and effort documenting and discussing such cultural obstacles at the slightest evidence of reasonableness.

Thank you, --118.16.163.13 (talk)

First posted 18:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC) - censored and removed from talk page history.

(Please note, as stated often before, my ISP gives out dynamic address, I am neither puppeting nor hiding my identity.) --58.94.56.252 (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User, please post to my talk page if you have an issue you would like someone to look at for you. --mboverload@ 20:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

How to name this ?

Dear Jimbo,
There is currently a delicate discussion on the administrator's board on the French wikipedia.
This follows the undefinite block of a user decided by a big amount of sysops (18) while a minority opposed to this (5) and after one of these unblocked him...
The case has been taken in front of the ArbCom... It sounds as if the undefinite block will be (much) reduced (but this is not the issue).
-> some sysops claim that they will not obey to the CAr if it requires the modification of this undefinite block. One of these sysops is a steward, member of the Association Wikimedia France, another one is checkuser.
I think this is not anecdotical and important enough so that you intervene. My understanding of the fragile equilibrium based on consensus with some "committees" elected (or chosen by the community) to take decisions could collapse...

• Here is the thread of the topic (in French)
• You can ask details/comments to fr:user:Gribeco, who is against the principle to "obey" the ArbCom decision
• You can ask details/comments to fr:user:Hadrien, who is the ArbCom referee who "complained" about that.
• While trustable, I don't think fr:user:Anthère is neutral, due to the involvment of fr:user:Guillom, member of the association Wikimedia France in the discussions.

Ceedjee (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
NB: Feel free to ask me any translation. There also some contributors of wp:en, who do not participate to wp:fr, who could help you and support. As involved, while I didn't take part to the debate, I think I am not neutral either, even for a translation. Ceedjee (talk) 20:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

In the English Misplaced Pages we have a system of "constitutional monarchy," and some longstanding traditions around that. I would personally desysop any admin or group of admins seeking to defy the ArbCom, because the ArbCom is a valid part of our longstanding traditions. There are other ways, more proper ways, to seek for change. (Including, for example, an appeal to me and a nonbinding community poll requesting me or the ArbCom to reconsider a decision. There are lots of civilized possibilities.) In French Misplaced Pages, I do not believe I hold the same role at all, because it is not part of the community tradition there. So therefore, all I can do is advise you: admins defying the ArbCom in any language ought to be prepared to accept the consequences, but I do not know what those are, and I can't personally help you. My point is, I do not know what power I have in French Misplaced Pages at all, however as an elder of our community, I would suggest that random admins overturning ArbCom decisions is a serious mistake. Justice can only be achieved through thoughtful process, and an admin war of all-against-all with no agreed upon conventions for settling things sounds to me like a recipe for disaster.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)