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Revision as of 01:30, 30 August 2008 editSandyGeorgia (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors279,026 edits set up September archive  Revision as of 22:28, 2 September 2008 edit undoSandyGeorgia (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, Mass message senders, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors279,026 edits promote 3Next edit →
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== September 2008 == == September 2008 ==

{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Red-necked Grebe}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Disintegration}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Déjà Vu (Beyoncé Knowles song)}}

Revision as of 22:28, 2 September 2008

September 2008

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:28, 2 September 2008 .

Red-necked Grebe

Nominator(s): jimfbleak (talk)


I'm nominating this article for featured article because its passed GA, been improved since then, and it looks quite pretty (back to British English for this one, I'm afraid) jimfbleak (talk) 06:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Support. Minor pickiness
  • First line - they are water birds... water bird or waterbird? We tend to use the compound word on wikipedia (seabird not sea bird), which I accept doesn't mean it has to be that the whole wayy through, but I think waterbird is more common. Also, I'm not certain, but is waterbird a general term for freshwater birds or just the ducks? Perhaps that is a matter for here though. Maybe The Red-necked Grebe is an aquatic bird? Sorry, I'm rambling.
  • The caption - Wing flapping is a ritualised display behaviour - is this a territory defence behaviour or a courtship behaviour? Both?
Overall I am happy with the content though. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, changed to "aquatic" and "territorial" jimfbleak (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose—Way below the professional standard of writing that is required. This nomination is premature; tell me, please, that you're not using our scarce reviewer resources as a free article-improvement "gas service station" you just drive into. Please consider widening your collaborative circle so that you can prepare your nominations adequately before launching them. It's not fair on the system, including nominators who do prepare to standards, and the reviewers.

  • "The Red-necked Grebe, Podiceps grisegena, is an aquatic bird which breeds in northwestern North America, Europe and Asia. It is migratory, wintering around ocean coasts or on large lakes." I had to wonder where it goes in the summer; I guess we have to piece together the assumption that it breeds in summer—we're not even semi-experts. Why not make it crystal clear, and solve the stub sentence at the same time: "The Red-necked Grebe, Podiceps grisegena, is an migratory, aquatic bird that breeds in northwestern North America, Europe and Asia and winters around ocean coasts or on large lakes." Now it's more obvious.
  • I don't think the suggestion of abusing FAC is appropriate (see WP:Goodfaith). This article has been through GA, and I've worked on it since. I don't think you should ask others to collaborate with me when you are not prepared to do so yourself, and greet requests for help with rudeness (this probably isn't helping my cause). I do review at GAN and FAC myself, although since you don't think I'm competent to do so, that's probably a waste of my time too, at least at FAC. - Jim
  • I would have thought that it was common sense that birds breed in summer, rather than winter - hardly an example of expertise. Modified as suggested, but do you actually want summer in the sentence? - Jim
  • "This grebe's red neck, black cap and contrasting pale grey face make it distinctive when in breeding plumage, but it loses much of its colour in winter to appear as a rather dusky-grey bird." "This grebe" sounds as though you're about to contrast it with other grebes. But you don't. "The bird's ...". "Although" might be better than "but". "Rather" is an interpersonal epithet, and is too subjective for WP: "... to become a dusky grey"? I see more "buts" below, and they don't look as though they're proper contrastives. I've raised this issue before in relation to your nominations.
  • I think Casliber has fixed this. I accept the "but" comment and I can see that "rather" may not be appropriate. I actually think " The grebe" is better than "The bird", but you're the boss - Jim

(I changed about 2/3rds of the buts to althoughs, th eremaining ones I though were better as 'buts'. As an exercise, I'd be intrigued whether you agreed with which ones were better changed from my diff.) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

  • "Its two subspecies are similar in plumage, although the race found in North America and eastern Asia is larger than the European form." Is "race" the right word for birds? "Although" is a false contrast; why shouldn't the Nth Am. and eastern A. ones be larger with their similar plumage? "And" is better. This confusion over additive versus contrastive clauses is a continuing theme in your writing, I'm afraid. I don't usually direct people to my 1a essay, but there is a section in it on that very aspect.
  • "race" is standard as a synonym for "subspecies", and obviously doesn't carry the baggage that it does when applied to humans. I have read your excellent essay, there would be even more for you to attack if I hadn't. - Jim

Now, that's just the first, small para in the lead. I'm not reading any more until it's properly presented. I suggest withdrawal, work, and resubmission. Tony (talk) 11:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

*Comments I didn't think it was that bad, but I will try and help - I haven't had much of a lookover of this one yet. Other comments below. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 13:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Current ref 12 (The Cornell Lab ref) is lacking a last access date! Jim, Im shocked that I have to point this out (LOL.. I never find errors in your references, I'm floored...)
Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
USFWS images work now; perhaps the site had been down for a moment? I haven't changed computers, browsers, or settings and the links are working for me now... ЭLСОВВОLД talk 13:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The images currently in the article look fine (I restored Image:Grèbejougrisparade.jpg, as the link is working); I'll drop a note for the uploader of Image:Podiceps-grisegena-008.jpg to see whether s/he can add the information needed. Ipperwash beach, on the other hand, was a "drive by" uploader in 2005, so I don't think it can be salvaged. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 13:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Fine, thanks. The Ipperwash image was just a nice habitat pic, so no big deal jimfbleak (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per 1A and 1B. The article clearly exceeds GA standards, and I wholeheartedly commend jimfbleak on the incredible job he has done shepherding this article from a stub to its present form... I've been poking around in JSTOR and AcademicSearchPremier etc. (and even on the dreaded EB- gasp!), and I think there are several facts that still need to be incorporated.. the species is called a "helldiver" due to its diving skill; the parents abandon their young at night, the restriction to coastal wintering areas is unlike other grebes... etc. I have emailed a set of articles to jimfbleak. Moreover, the writing needs more than a little polishing in my opinion. The WP:LEDE in particular causes me some hesitation... I think that this article could be buffed up to FA standards in about 2 weeks of concentrated editing. But I have to !vote now, so... Ling.Nut 04:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Thanks for accessing the subscription stuff and kind words. I'm incorporating some of the new material, although not sure what to do about "helldiver" which is applied to other species in NAm. Wintering on coasts isn't unusual for grebes, all the migratory species do, afaik. jimfbleak (talk) 06:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Revised the lede, see the article's Talk. This now has four paragraphs; I disagree with mechanically following the suggestions on Misplaced Pages:Lead section regarding this but am open to suggested improvements. I also prefer the infobox image I had placed there over the one currently there.. the image I had placed seems to highlight the plumage more clearly etc.. but as per usual I would not argue against consensus..
  • MMm apparently all grebes can and do winter on coasts, but the Bubba is distinctive for being largely restricted to that area... I got the "unusual wintering" bit here. Ling.Nut 06:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Fine on lead, The book is NAm only, its not unusual outside that continent. I've incorporated key points from all the subscription stuff except the Bonnie Stout article (not peer-reviewed journal) thanks again, jimfbleak (talk) 07:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Support, but please include a description of the eggs and the chicks as requested by RaveDave below. And thanks for another interesting article. Graham Colm 21:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Comments on today's version:

  • I don't like Perhaps the best... - it sounds vague.
  • A ball is not amorphous - it's a ball.
  • We have nominate throughout the article, I'm not sure what it means, do you need to say this? Graham Colm 13:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • thanks, Graham. Perhaps and the ball now gone. "Nominate" now has a better link which explains clearly. I don't really want to copy the explanation into the text - although it's a simple idea, it's a bit wordy to gloss in the article. jimfbleak (talk) 15:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Ling

  • Not noticed this addition, tidied, I'll look for a link for vagrant - Jim
  • This is a tangled sentence: "The parents do not interfere with the feeding of their chicks while they are still at the stage of being carried for most of the time, but subsequently they care for the younger chicks for longer, and show aggression to the older offspring, thus equalising the post-fledging survival of all chicks, and encouraging their independence." Ling.Nut 16:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • fixed by Graham -Jim
  • added - Jim
  • I've no idea how to convert a pdf into a png. - Jim

(undent) I'm not the bird guy here :-) I defer to your wisdom, as always. :-) I won't make the .png. Ling.Nut 11:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Fjeldsa might be an expert, but his English is dreadful - a bit further on he says they are "brave" - anthropomorphic or what? - Jim
  • breeding season early spring and late fall? I keep finding snippets to suggest this; one e.g. "The Red-necked Grebe breeds in small numbers on inland freshwater lakes in Hokkaido (Ishikari and Kitami) where its season is from April to October." Ling.Nut 17:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • misleading, RNG rarely second broods, and while it might be present in Hokkaido in October, it certainly wouldn't be starting to lay eggs then. I'll add a bit about second broods or relaying extending the season though - Jim
  • added to description - Jim

17:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

  • hunted for feathers; now protected (where?): Both EB and this say grebes were a favorite of milliners due to their bright, silky plumage. This may be moe pertinent to grebe than red-necked grebe. Ling.Nut 18:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's the Great Crested Grebe in Europe, with its more southern and western range that really suffered - Jim
  • Snow gives figures for even more countries, but I didn't want to get bogged down in too much detailed data. - Jim

Comments

  • "It dives for fish or picks insects off vegetation, and swallows its own feathers, possibly to protect the digestive system." could probably be two sentences. Only 20% of it's diet is fish so the order should be at least changed. The fact could even be called out.
  • I think that would be misleading. Where does the 20% come from? proportions of fish are higher in NAm and northernmost Europe anyway, and both ssp eat mainly fish in winter. I've semi-coloned the sentence though - Jim
  • Have you looked for freely available audio to add?
  • couldn't find any - Jim
  • Have you looked for pictures of the bird in flight?
  • Couldn't find any, migrate at night and don't fly during the day much - Jim
  • Can you mention the chicks distinctive appearance? They look very different from the parents, and from other waterfowl chicks that I have seen.
  • It's there under "description" - Jim
  • Is it known why the chicks colored this way?
  • Couldn't find anything, all Podiceps chicks are striped, like all crake chicks are black - I think people would just be speculating anyway
  • Mention the color of its eggs?
  • It's there under "breeding" - Jim

-Ravedave (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, i found egg color but skipped it. Will try to relocate. Ling.Nut 18:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
light blue to chalky white, quickly stained Ling.Nut 18:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) A little bit of redundancy: the "Breeding and survival" section seems to mention floating nests in two places; the "description" section seems to discuss plumage in two places. Maybe could be reorganized a little? I could do it later, if no one else does. Also... the part about splitting the brood.. should that go in the "feeding" section or in "breeding"? I'm not saying it has to be moved; I'm not a bird person.. but it seems beter matched to the "breeding" section to me. I defer to others' opinions. Ling.Nut 05:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

  • I've moved the chick bit as suggested, similarly with description. Not sure about the nesting, first mention is of the large masses used for colonial breeding, to which the nests are attached, second is of the nests themselves. Please reword if that's unclear jimfbleak (talk) 06:18, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support comprehensive enough and well written with good media. The map seems to be outdated or does not include a large area of vagrancy in Asia. Would also like some info on hunting, it appears that it was eaten quite a bit in the Stone Age by humans. There is a "grebe" call here http://www.freesound.org/tagsViewSingle.php?id=10542 and if it is of the right species, it may be a good idea to include it. License is suitable Shyamal (talk) 07:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • thanks, and thanks also for the numerous copy edits. I'm not convinced about the call, doesn't really match my CD with Red-necked, but it has lots of different calls - might be Slav? The map is a bit elderly, but range maps don't normally show vagrancy anyway (or do you mean regular wintering?). I'll look at the stone age bit, but it may not be today - do you have a link jimfbleak (talk) 09:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • It's not possible to accurately depict a spherical surface on a plane, so all maps of large areas distort distances or directions or both. By non-standard, I assume you mean WP:BIRD recommendations. It's not easy to recolour, but the map is not a requirement of FA, so I could remove it. The map has an unambiguous legend, so I'd rather keep it with non-standard colours than remove it. jimfbleak (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks, and thanks for edits. Ling.nut and Shyamal helped to improve the standard too, both with editing and with finding material that I don't have access too - or just didn't find! jimfbleak (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks, this should have been a co-nom really, the amount of effort you've put into it. I'll have to go back to uni to get access to some of those sources too! First time around I don't think the telephone was invented, let alone the Internet (: jimfbleak (talk) 05:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:28, 2 September 2008 .

Disintegration

Nominator(s): NSR77 C, WesleyDodds (talk)


Disintegration is a 1989 album by The Cure. After some delayed promises in May and June to work on the article that was pushed back to July, it is finally complete. It was promoted to Good Article status prior to the addition of the final section. Several editors have given it a copyedit. All questions, comments, (and) or concerns will be dealt with in a prompt and timely fashion. NSR77 C 18:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Strong Support: excellently written, an engaging narrative as well as strong prose, well rounded with both good and bad reviews, nothing trivial or overly "fannish", properly cited. Well done. --Davémon (talk) 22:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments on images Oppose until fair use rationale is strengthened
  • Image:CureDisintegration.jpg - Who owns the copyright to this image? That information needs to be included in the fair use rationale.
  • Image:TheCure-Disintegration-30s.ogg - It would be a good idea to explain specifically why this excerpt is important to the article in the fair use rationale. It would make it much stronger.
  • This is not really sufficient yet in my opinion. Why this particular song? Why this particular excerpt? What is it about this song that makes its inclusion necessary to understanding this album? Awadewit (talk) 14:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The song is discussed at length and the section used displays the overall theme of the record, as explained in the sound-box excerpt. NSR77 C 16:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The fair use rationale has to explain these details, however. "The sample is of a song that is discussed at length, and will help the reader to comprehend such" is not sufficient. Awadewit (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
*Image:RobertSmith89.JPG - The fair use tag says this image is from a music video, but the description says it is from a concert - something needs to be fixed. Is Fiction Records the copyright holder? If so, could that be made more explicit?

These issues should be relatively easy to fix. Awadewit (talk) 23:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

comment Image:RobertSmith89.JPG doesnt seem to significantly increase the readers' understanding (WP:NFCC#8) and therefore its usage may breach FAC #3 Fasach Nua (talk) 12:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Prose spot-checks reveal problems:

  • "Disintegration was Robert Smith's thematic return to a dark and gloomy aesthetic that The Cure had in the early 1980s. Smith deliberately sought to record an album that was depressing, as it was a reflection of the despondency he felt at the time. As such, the record company's first listen to Disintegration was that of shock." "Had" is a bit of a clunk. "that characterized The Cure in ..."? Same for "listen to"; why not "impression of"?
  • ... according to journalist Jeff Apter by "unravelling ever so slowly ... Comma would be good.
  • A purist in logical punctuation would still put the period after the closing quotation marks, but you can probably get away with it as is: ... sees Thompson and Smith "treating their work to heavy duty flanging, delay, backwards-run tapes and more to set the slow, moody crawl of the track." But more importantly, please check whether you're permitted to link within quotations. Last time I looked, you were not. This is important to WP's ideal of being true to original source material.
  • "While Disintegration is mainly made up of sombre tracks, "Lovesong", "Pictures Of You" and "Lullaby" were equally popular for their accessibility. Smith wanted to create a balance on the album by including songs that would act as an equilibrium with those that were unpleasant." "composed of" would be nicer. "Make up" also means to contrive, which leaks out a little here. Does "equally" mean that the three songs cited were equally popular, or that taken as a group, they were as popular as the rest of the album was sombre? Either way, I don't think you can justify with precision that equality was true. This is a loose, oral-mode expression (even when not ambiguous grammatically) that should probably be avoided on WP. "A balance" and "an equilibrium"—you're not repeating the concept, are you?

Now, I find much of this article well written. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be scrutinised carefully by a good copy-editor (like Deckiller); we want to be proud of this on the Internet. Tony (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Support: This is a very well written and organized article, and it's worthy of the best album ever.
  • My only issue is the possible search priority/disambiguation. I feel like the physical act of disintegration, being the actual definition and the origin of the album title, should be the default link. Oddly, there is no entry for the physical process, but it seems a bit unusual (since other such physical processes, such as combustion, have full WP articles). The current state is, in my opinion, similar to having the default result for "Milky Way" retrieving a page about a candy bar.--Elred (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Question Is there a reason this article's title does not use parentheses? I strongly believe that the disambig page should be moved to this title while, this FAC article be moved to something with parenthesis. Nergaal (talk) 17:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:28, 2 September 2008 .

Déjà Vu (Beyoncé Knowles song)

Nominator: Efe (talk)
previous FAC (00:44, 4 July 2008)


This is the third time. I almost got this to FA but there were three opposes that I failed to address as quickly as it should. I believe all comments have been given attention and there has been a pre-FAC feedback that helped this one to reach some level of readyness. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Images/Nonfree content
    • Image:Deja Vu.jpg- thorough fair use rationale, source and license present
    • Image:DejaVuSample.ogg- thorough fair use rationale, source and license present
    • Image:Beyonce-Deja Vu in Sweden.jpg- free image, source and license present
    • Image:Dejavu-video2.jpg- non-free with proper rationale, although I think it might be a bit weak. "intended to represent the nature of the single"... but does it significantly aid understanding of the topic? Generally I would say no, but it does have a tie-in by illustrating the sexual themes commented upon in the article body. I'm iffy about inclusion, but if others agree it can be kept, I would make the rationale more explicit for purpose- something like "illustrates sexual content commented upon by reviewers and which provoked a fan response, commented upon in the article".
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Done. --Efe (talk) 06:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I still think there are issues with Image:Dejavu-video2.jpg, I would certainly imagine the text would justify a screenshot, I dont think this is very clear what is going on, and it is quite dark. I havent seen the video, but is there a better shot? Fasach Nua (talk) 08:44, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
In some sources, the scene is where the "unacceptable interaction" best shown. Its Knowles detaching Jay-Z's belt and seems "about to give a fellatio". Which part is wrong? The caption or the fair use? --Efe (talk) 09:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I would maybe increase the image quality, I think the caption and FU rationale are probably okay Fasach Nua (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay. I'll try uploading clearer one. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 11:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I did a screencapture off Beyonce's official site and uploaded a new version which is a tad less grainy and pixelated than the previous iteration. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 23:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Any more concerns? --Efe (talk) 05:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Removed watermark. --Efe (talk) 02:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments
  • ""Déjà Vu" is influenced by late-'70s funk elements, soul and hip hop genres." - Isn't this merely the opinion of the reviewers in question? Unless the songwriters confirm the influences, then this is speculation, and should be written as being merely their opinion.—This is part of a comment by LuciferMorgan (of 22:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following:
  • "It is hook-laden, similar in this respect to Knowles' 2003 single "Crazy in Love" from her debut album Dangerously in Love." - This is a comparison, so someone has arrived at an actual conclusion. Can you please clarify in the article whom has drawn that comparison? Whether something is similar isn't factual, and opinions differ from person to person.—This is part of a comment by LuciferMorgan (of 22:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)), which was interrupted by the following:
I am not referring to the term "hook-laden" in any instance. I am referring to two songs being compared to one another, and yes, this is an issue, or else I would not have raised it. I am vehemently against music articles misleading readers, and so is FA criteria. LuciferMorgan (talk) 01:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any idea how to rephrase it without tending to be POVic or ORish? --Efe (talk) 05:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Checked the article, and I can't seem to find anything that is an issue. LuciferMorgan (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Support. Meets all criteria: well written, succinct, informative. Good job. Orane (talk) 07:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support if IPs can support. Nice coverage. I would still make a few edits: the bass player is mentioned under the name John Webb and then under the name Jon Jon Webb; that certainly needs to be clarified somehow. More optional stuff: the last caption perhaps needs a little work, and the use of the phrase blow job seems incongruously informal given the tone of the article (perhaps "oral sex"?) 86.44.27.122 (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
    • Good point. The former is correct if based on the source. The latter is taken from the liner notes of B'Day. I will change it to John Webb since the source was an interview with him. Same through with blow job. Seems informal. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 04:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support for an article that has come along way since the first version I reviewed in the Spring. An incredible amount of time, effort and dedication has gone into this piece. I am not a fan of most popular culture articles, and I find them difficult to judge (unless the prose is poor). In this case I'm sticking my neck out and supporting because I think the readers who Google this subject will not be disappointed with Misplaced Pages. Graham Colm 16:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • Unlink common terms like "American"
  • "was already completed" – why the "already"? It seems out of place to me.
  • "One month over" – one month over what?

Gary King (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

  • Support

Like Graham, I rarely even read pop music/games articles, but I found this engaging, apparently comprehensive (I'm no expert) and without significant issues. jimfbleak (talk) 06:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.