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Additional comments on the 'Criticism' section

Setting aside the personal attacks, I would like to make a few comments regarding the current 'Criticism' section.

1.) The introductory sentence uses a reference to the 1989 DOE report. In the intervening years, much has changed. While lack of reproducibility is still a problem, the other three issues have been addressed in part and need to be modified. Precision of calorimetry is not so much the problem as accuracy. While the historical notation that precision has improved is probably worthwhile, that is not a current criticism. The unanswered question today is whether or not a calibration constant shift mechanism is active (ignoring all debate on what would cause such a shift). The absence of nuclear products has been replaced by a massive abundance of supposed nuclear products. The criticism is that such products are the results of contamination or analytical chemistry errors. As noted in the last subsection, several theories have been proposed, but none are accepted, so the criticism today is that the proposed theories are still inadequate. The intro should reflect the current criticisms, not those that are 19 years old.

2.) In the ‘Precision of calorimetry’ subsection, most of the references used in the 1st two paragraphs are pre-2000, and as such are not relevant to current concerns (Browne, 1989; Wilson, 1992; Shkedi, 1995; Jones, 1995). The quotes from the 2004 DOE report in the next paragraph should be referenced to clarify to the readers that these are current comments (2004), not from 1989.

3.) The explanation of the current criticism by Shanahan should be modified to indicate that while the specific publications used mass flow calorimetric data, the method is applicable to any calibrated method, and as such applies to all type of calorimeters, i.e. to all available publications claiming excess heat production to be observed.

4.) Note that the Shanahan critique was published in 2002. In the next paragraph, ref. 88 is to a 1992 report. How can it possibly rebut Shanahan? Ditto for ref 89, which was published in 1997. The 88 and 89 references should be dropped. Ref 91 is the Storms 2006 rebuttal to Shanahan’s 2002 and 2005 publications, and it should be moved to after ‘published a rebuttal’. Ref 90 is a 2007 book, published after the 2006 Storms-Shanahan exchange. It may or may not be relevant, I haven’t read it. I will look into it. The Shanahan rebuttal to 91 is unreferenced here. Of course renumbering will occur.

5.) Regarding the statement referenced by 88, as noted in 4.) the ref. is not relevant. The statement comes from the Hagelstein 2004 reference, where it is also unreferenced, (i.e. an author’s opinion). The whole sentence should probably be struck, since it is just opinion, but perhaps a ref. to the 2004 DOE report might be minimally acceptable. That still gives it too much credence.

6.) In the ‘Lack of reproducibility of…’ section, it would be worth mentioning that Shanahan’s critiques make it clear that he believes there is an effect, but that it is non-nuclear in origin, i.e. fully conventional. Thus attempting to control the effect based on nuclear reactions would not work, thereby producing great difficulty in obtaining reproducibility in detail.

7.) In the “Missing nuclear prod…” section: The title is out-of-date as noted above. Today there are reports of nearly every element known to man being found in cold fusion experiments. This section should be split into two sub-sections, perhaps ‘conventional products’ (like 3H, 3He, 4He) and ‘unconventional’ (like heavy metals with or without isotopic distribution shifts). The first paragraph of the current section is fine and would be the 1st paragraph of the ‘conventional products’ subsection. The next lines referring to Clarke, et al’s work are fine, but the impact of the work is not communicated. There should be a statement added to the effect that the finding of significant air inleakage in samples provided by a prominent CF research causes considerable skepticism about similar claims when full analytical results and protocols are not disclosed (which has not happened to date). That ties in nicely with the next paragraph which is fine.

8.) Now on to the new subsection ‘Unconventional products’. This section should discuss the criticisms of the nuclear transmutation claims, which are standard variants of the criticisms quoted just above from the DOE 2004 report, namely contamination of the apparatus or samples. All the published claims to have observed transmutations are based in surface science techniques, such as SIMS, XPS, and SEM-EDX. If I recall correctly Scott Little used XRF to find new elements in a repeat of the G. Miley work, but Little only posted papers to the Web. (As an aside, I note that Wiki seems to be able to retrieve posted documents, like the DOE 2004 report, and others, and use them as refs., so why can’t we use Little’s papers?) The problem with surface analysis is that it is a trace analysis technique, by definition. If the researchers used 2.5 moles of water (about equivalent to 50cc) that was 5-nines purity, that means you have 5e-6*2.5 = 1.25e-5 moles of impurity, i.e. contaminant. That is ~7.5e18atoms (assuming an atomic contaminant) of contaminant. If we assume the radius of the atom is 5 Angstroms, i.e. the diameter is 10A, then the area it covers if we treat it as a square is 1e-14 cm2. That means we can cover ~75000 cm2 to a depth of 1 atom. Most electrodes are about 4 cm2 (2x2 cm). That mean we would be able to cover the normal CF electrode about 10,000 atomic layers deep if we started with 5-nines purity electrolyte solvent. Most surface studies do not indicate anywhere near full surface coverage, so we are safe in assuming what is observed could have come from a trace of a trace.

9.) Now if you put that contaminant in 50cc, you have 2.5e-4 Molar contaminant concentration. In “Principles of Instrumental Analysis”, (1971), D. A. Skoog and D. M. West, chapter 22, “Voltammetry”, subsection “Stripping Methods”, pps. 594-597, you find the statement that these methods a) include stripping trace contaminants from solutions with solid electrodes (such as palladium) electrochemically (as in a P-F cell), and b) that the concentrations that can routinely be measured lie in the 10e-6 to 10e-10 M range. Thus our 5-nines contaminant is already two orders of magnitude more concentrated that the normal upper range of the analytical technique. Both points 8.) and 9.) imply to avoid having to address the contamination issue, one needs to be another 5-6 orders of magnitude purer in all starting materials, i.e 10-12-nines material. Such a material cannot be purchased. Therefore all CF research claiming these things must (again) fully disclose all results and methods used to prove contamination is not the problem. To date none have, so there is no published claim to have observed heavy metal transmutation that cannot safely be ignored. The CFers just haven’t done their job, which would be very labor intensive as you have to run many, many cells made from different starting material batches to try to detect changes due to contaminants. Further, you may recall I pointed to Scott Little’s work where he took some of the most prominent ‘new’ elements on a CF electrode and actually tracked them down to contaminants, proving that it was a problem in relation to Miley’s reports.

10.) With regards to SIMS claims, I have noted before that the basic problem is that the CF researchers prefer to ignore the existence of M-H(or D) and M-H-H ion species in the mass spec signal. A case in point is “Producing Elements of Mass Number 137 and 141 by Deuterium Permeation on Multi-Layered Pd Samples with Cs Deposition”, H. Yamada, et al, Proceeding of JCF8, Nov. 29-20, 2007, p 26. (see http://dragon.elc.iwate-u.ac.jp/jcf/file/jcf8-proceedings.pdf) JCF8 is the eighth Japanese Cold Fusion Society meeting. In that paper, the researchers deposit Cs on a complex Pd-containing membrane. Cs is 100% mass 133. In Figures 2 and 3, they show mass spectra with a strong Cs133 peak (120 counts) and a strong mass 135 peak that they label ‘Cs-D’ (~90 counts), and a strong mass 137 peak(110 counts) which they do not label Cs-D2, but instead label as ‘(137La, 137Ba)’. In the text they also speak of 137Cs, a man-made Cs isotope. Why do they not speak of Cs-D2? In the text they dismiss the possibility without reference, and then also look at mass differences between the CsD2 and La, Cs, or Ba peaks that amount to 0.02%, claiming that that excludes CsD2. The most likely source of the mass 137 peak, especially given the agreed upon and strong presence of CsD, is Cs-D2. Such handwaving dismissal of the obvious is clearly biased interpretation, and serves as an excellent example of the criticism of the SIMS claims to heavy metal transmutation.

11.) I have no comments on the theory section, as this is not of interest to me.

12.) One could also add comments on conventional explanations of the CR-39 data as well, since such data was remarked upon in the prior section of the article.

Thus the whole section is out-of-date and does not reflect the criticisms of the field as they now stand. It needs to be rewritten, as I have said before. I might add that most of these criticisms were present in 2004 and should have been brought up to the DOE panel, but weren’t. So much for the validity of that review. I reserve the right not to respond if I so choose. Kirk shanahan (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Dr. Shanahan for these contributions. Misplaced Pages allows you to be bold, so feel free to make corrections to the article directly. You just need to remember that wikipedia does not tolerate original research, and that all statements in wikipedia must have been verifiable from a reliable source (please provide these sources). The condition for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. This may explain why some statements seem obsolete. If there are some ideas that you believe are true but not published, I'd suggest you have them published in a peer-reviewed scientific paper first, so that we can include them here later. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have been bold. New version of the section is up, refs also modified (or will be soon).Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It adds some good info, but contains a little too much analysis/synthesis (see WP:OR) in my opinion. Kevin Baas 19:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It would help if you were specific. Then we could discuss the points. I tried to be as short as possible, but in the 'accuracy..' subsection for example, the problem was that Storms failed to take into account my last publication, and came to conflicting conclusions about the CCS. That needed some explanation.Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I have removed unsourced statements, as per WP:BRD. Anything that cannot be traced to a reliable sources should be excluded from the article. Let's discuss if you disagree. Also, policies and previous discussions prevent us from quoting self-published sources (e.g. Little) or proceedings (e.g. Storms 2000). Pcarbonn (talk) 15:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I also believe that the new paragraphs are difficult to understand by the average readers. I would suggest to move it to the Calorimetry in cold fusion experiments article, and keep a simpler version in this main article. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

And so it begins... Pierre, you have gutted every significant new (as opposed to 1989) criticism I added. I am not going to get into a revert war with you. I don't have the time. What specifically did you think was wrong with these sections excepting of course that they directly cjallenge cold fusion claims? I think the rest of you should carefully examine the major edits P has made and put some of it back at least.Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I've removed what does not come from a reliable source. If you can provide reliable sources, I'll be happy to add them back. Kevin Baas concurred that the new edits contained original research. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

And as I said, I need specifics, not the generalities you and Kevin have posted to date. Let me give an example. You completely deleted the section on heavy metal transmutation criticisms. Why? Yes, I explained that contamination was a problem, but that's just arithmetic, and understanding trace and voltammetry. I also commented on the SIMS data mis-analysis, with an example of just such a problem referenced (which IS allowed by the Wiki policy if you read it). If the heavy metal transmutation claims are to be allowed in the 'evidence for' section, the problems with the claims should be allowed in the 'Criticism' section. Otherwise remove the transmutation claims from the otehr part of the article too. (I'll stop now until you answer my comments here before moving on the rest of your deletes.) Kirk shanahan (talk) 20:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Criticism of transmutations reports

You wrote 3 paragraphs on metal transmutations. The only source for criticism is the one from Little, and as said above, it is self-published and thus not reliable. If it was reliable, how come it has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal ? I also suspect that many of the statements that you made do not come from that source, but I'm willing to see the evidence. In a topic that is so controversial and full of dubious claims, we need to use reliable scientific sources. The evidence for transmutations that we cite does come from reliable source, hence there is no reason to delete it. Self-published evidence from CF proponents of cold fusion have been rejected in the past, so the same rule should apply to both sides. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Taking your comment line-by-line:

• You are correct, I wrote three paragraphs. I wasn’t aware however, that there was a word count-to-reference ratio requirement. Can you point me to that requirement please?

• The way I read the Wiki policy on sources, use of web pages is frowned upon and is OK only when used for a limited specific purpose. The Little paper is used for 1 purpose, to illustrate to the reader how much work must be done to adequately address the contamination issue. I state that. This meets the policy requirement.

Here is what the WP:SPS says: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The Scott Little reference fails to meet this requirement, unless you can show otherwise. Because this is the only reference you provide for the 3 paragraphs, they should be deleted unless proven otherwise. If you disagree, we can ask Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard for a 3rd opinion.

Scott Little meets these definitions. He has listed 3 publications in peer-reviewed journals on his employer's web page (see http://www.earthtech.org/publications/index.html), one of which is directly related to the cold fusion field, where he is sole author. He was requested by Krivit to participate in the CR-39 round robin study (see http://www.earthtech.org/CR39/index.html).Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

In the reference I use, he collaborates with George Miley, a nuclear engineer, cold fusion promoter, and former editor of Fusion Technology (now Fusion Science and Tech.) So put the three paragraphs back...(since you imply that is all that was needed...).

Personally, I think that even without the Little example, the paragraphs belong. (more to come when time allows) Kirk shanahan (talk) 21:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, the source related to cold fusion is a proceedings, which we agree is not reliable. The other 2 are not related to cold fusion. So, he does not meet the criteria. You have not shown that "his work in has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Pcarbonn (talk) 21:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:Reliable sources. The word proceeding does not appear. Does a policy exist that states that everything that is labeled a proceeding cannot be a reliable source? --Noren (talk) 03:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

We agreed that the same rules should apply to both sides. It has been stated many times by others on this talk page that we should not accept proceedings as reliable for this controversial article, ScienceApologist has added this request to the To Do list for this article, and Dr. Shanahan independently requested it in this thread.

Why do I insist on proper reliable sources ? Because of what the 2004 DOE said : "It stated that the field would benefit from the peer-review processes associated with proposal submission to agencies and paper submission to archival academic journals." This applies for both sides of the controversy. Noren, I believe you insisted for the inclusion of this sentence in the lead, but I may be wrong. It would be a bad idea to not follow their advice for this controversial topic. Without it, the article would quickly be "full of controversial and dubious claims", as Dr. Shanahan said here. Pcarbonn (talk) 06:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, the WP:SPS policy says: "A reliable self-published source on a given subject is likely to have been cited on that subject as authoritative by a reliable source." In this case, Scott Little's webpage on transmutations has no such citations and cannot be considered "a reliable self-published source". We can all imagine what would happen if we would accept content from webpages from any CF researchers who has published in proceedings (like content from this page ?). Pcarbonn (talk) 06:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Here are 2 other sites that would qualify as sourceable with your proposed criteria : lenr-canr.org and Kowalski's site. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Storms meet this requirement as he has published articles in the relevant field in reliable third-party publications. Furthermore, books published by reliable publishers like World Scientific are not seen as self-published, but as reliable sources by wikipedia policies. If in doubt, you can request 3rd opinion at the Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• Your opinion of Scott’s work is not relevant. The reason I have to use Scott’s paper is that there is no equal paper from a cold fusion researcher, which is one of the points I make as a criticism. If you think I am wrong, I would be glad to look over the reference you can cite.

The references are cited in the nuclear transmutation section.Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

No, those references do not include any detailed descriptions of activities undertaken to assure that contamination is not relevant. My point still stands. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• You are correct that most of what I wrote does not come from the Little paper. That would be in violation of Wiki policy. I will look in more detail at what I wrote below. But I would note that since you say you’re not sure what the Little paper says, I would assume you haven’t read it. If that’s true, how can you conclude it violates Wiki policy, isn’t reliable, isn’t relevant, etc.?

As you acknowledge, most of what you wrote does not come from the Little paper, and is thus not sourced. Hence the deletion. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't need to read the paper because we are not judging the reliability of content, but of sources. Please read WP:Reliable policies. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• As to ‘reliable’ scientific sources, I find very few of the references cited by most cold fusion researchers (and the writers of the Cold Fusion Wiki page) reliable on scientific issues. Sure, you can cite newspapeer articles and the like for historical documentation, but the scientific citations are too often from Proceedings or journals that are cloistered in the cold fusion community alone, and clearly have inadequate peer review. Let’s also realize that books are not peer-reviewed either. This is primarily why the topic is so full of controversial and dubious claims.

With regards to the sources in the pro-nuclear transmutation section: The citations used are nos. 72 and 75 – 82. There are two double refs. to the same paper in that, giving us 7 refs. used. 72 is the Hagelstein white paper – not peer reviewed or published. 75 and 77 are books by Mizuno and Storms – not peer reviewed. 76 is a 1996 paper published in the first volume of the J. of New Energy. Highly suspicious because the cold fusion researchers have pulled together into a closed society and do not participate in normal scientific channels, claiming they are surpressed. A journal of ‘New Energy’ started in 1996 sounds like a journal formed expressley to promote cold fusion and the like – not reliable (at least to mainline scientists). 78 is a referenece to a publicity blurb written by the U. of Ill. Engineering Dept. – that’s not even a real reference – not published, not peer reviewed. 79 and 80 are refs to the same paper from the proceedings of ICCF10 (2003). In general Proceedings are of lower reliability that peer-reviewed journal articles, and the proceedings of a highly controversial field are even less reliable. This ref is semi-acceptable, but shouldn’t be taken as highest quality. Refs 81 and 82 are to the same Iwamura paper (2002) in J. Jap. Appl. Phys. I have commented extensively on it in spf about the time it came out, and I find all the usual errors in it. The journal may be reliable, but the paper isn’t, but that doesn’t disqualify this ref from the article. So out of 7 we have 1 good one, 1 marginal one, and 5 that have no reliability for deciding scientific issues. (The Hagelstein ref has value from the point of view that it represents the ‘best foot forward’ of the field’s proponents, i.e. it is expected to be highly biased. The balance comes from the DOE reviewers’ comments.)

72: Hagelstein paper: I don't mind removing that sentence if you have an issue with its reliability.

75: Storms is a reliable source, as noted above. Let's ask Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard if you disagree.

76: whatever your opinion of J. of New Energy, it is a peer reviewed journal and thus considered a reliable source by wikipedia.

77: is reliable because Mizuno has published in scientific journals on the relevant topic.

78: I don't mind deleting it if you have an issue with it.

79 and 90: i'm fine with deleting it too. Proceedings should be excluded.

Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that uniform standards should apply. I wasn’t around for the other issues you bring up, but I assume their use violated Wiki policy, unlike my targeted and specific use for a singular purpose.

Now on to what I wrote and why:

1st paragraph – I point out 1) these claims were not discussed in the 2004 review (they were mentioned however), 2) the criticism is the way the issue of contamination is handled, 3) the P-F type cell is essentially doing stripping voltammetry, 4) that extreme purity requirements are in force if one wishes to ignore contamination issues, 5) the CF literature does not support such purities (meaning the issue cannot be ignored),and 6) that my rebuttal paper makes note of a phenomenon in Storms work that points to stripping of the electrodes as relevant. Note I connect to Wiki pages on ‘trace’ and the various ‘voltammetries’, which is a type of internal referencing. To me, I have laid out as briefly as possible the issue, with supporting information to make sure the readers don’t think I (or the article) am/is just whining.

Unless this reasoning is sourced, wikipedia considers this as WP:Original research, and in particular, Synthesis of published material which advances a position. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

2nd paragraph – This paragraph adds the idea that the contaminants can be extracted from the things the cell is made of. This is not a new or original idea. In fact the whole polywater fiasco was attributed to this very phenomenon. So, I see no need of references for that, nor is it practical. This is Chemistry 101. Then I give the example of how hard this is to trace down. And I make the statement that there are no examples of this level of effort in the proCF literature. If you have a counter to that, please let me know, but to ‘reference’ my statement, I would have to cite every paper that claimed heavy metal transmutation, which is not practical of course. Nevertheless, the statement is correct. If you disagree, please cite a reference for the basis of your objection.

I would suggest that you get this reasoning published in a scientific journal. I'll support its inclusion in the article once it is done.Pcarbonn (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

One of the criteria for publishing is that something new and unique is added to the literature in the publication. Pointing out that a paper fails to address contamination is not new and unique. This is one of the primary reasons there is no reference to cite. It is basic, common knowledge. However, the psuedoscientist finds it convenient to pretend it isn't, and thus claims a paper must be published pointing out this problem before it becomes a problem. Not so, failure to conduct 'normal' studies addressing common and recurrent problems is a problem with or without someone specifically pointing it out. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

3rd paragraph - Here is where I address the second part of the cold fusion transmutation claims relating to shifted isotopic distributions. I connect to the Wiki page on the analytical technique used, and give a brief statement of the problem of multi-atom ions. The fact that the cold fusion researchers ignore this is another statement that would require citing every paper that makes SIMS claims of this type, not practical. Again, if you disagree, cite a reference where the SIMS data is unambiguously for transmutation. I also cite an example of the specific problem here, which is another Web page. But again, I am using it as an example for a specific purpose which fits the Wiki policy. I end with a clear statement of the critcism.

I would suggest that you search for a reliable source that says : "the cold fusion researchers ignore ". Pcarbonn (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

No what I have done is read the cold fusion researchers' papers and found no evidence they address the isssue. As explained above, I would not expect to find a particular paper stating that. If you have an example to the contrary, please cite it. make sure it is not just assertions that such work waas done. We need full disclosure, just as Scott Little did, to accept the revolutionary claims being made. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

All-in-all, I kept it as brief as I could while clearly stating the criticisms and explaining their technical basis (no one should accept criticisms without a basis behind them). Your block deletion of what I wrote is unjustified scientifically and from the point of view of Wiki policy. This subsection should be restored as written.

Shall we go on to the next block? Kirk shanahan (talk) 14:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

If you agree with what I said, we can go on the next block. Otherwise, let's resolve this first. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Over the weekend I've had some time to consider my options here, and I've come to the conclusion that I am embroiled in a battle that is going to take an inordinate amount of time to win because of your tactics. Further, I suspect that whatever I am able to accomplish through this battle will be obliterated within 6 months as was my prior attempt to set the record straight on this issue. All one has to do is look at how you altered the entire meaning of the 'Accuracy of Calorimetry' section to see this. The problem in dealing with fanatics when you yourself are not one, is that they will outlast you, unless you also become a fanatic. I don't consider this issue important enough to become fanatical about. therefore, I'm gone. Too bad that Misplaced Pages loses a balanced article. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

A pity that you quit Misplaced Pages. Hopefully that will give you some time to publish your original research in a scientific peer-reviewed journal. Because the threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth, as the policy says. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

As you can see I haven't quit, I am just not going to get involved in general, non-specific debates, or in line-by-line, word-by-word debates. What I wrote to add to the Criticisms section is basic chemistry, understood by all, and supported when possible by published refs, or in other cases with clear examples. I just apply that basic understanding to the case at hand. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Have I returned too late? I've been away from wikipedia for a while. I see I was asked for specifics before. My apologies, I thought the link to OR and "analysis/synthesis" would be enough. My problem is with anything like "...this means (i.e. implies) that..." or "...therefore...", or "...one could conclude that...", or "...apparently failed to...", etc. Anything with causation or logical connection is analysis. Any thing connecting two different ideas that were not connected by any of the sources is synthesis. Any analysis should be taken directly from a reliable source and attributed to that source and cited. (for instance "...such and such says that this means that...." (citation).) Any synthesis, by definition, does not have a source, and thus should be removed. Per wikipedia policy (see specifically WP:OR#Synthesis_of_published_material_which_advances_a_position). For an educated scientist such as yourself, it should be rather trivial to find these parts of the text, which is why I didn't bother to be specific at first (and now i see pcarbonn has done it for me). Kevin Baas 15:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Kevin, a) you're not being specific again, b) Pcarbon and I were discussing the nuclear transmutation criticisms in the mass deletion of additions I made to the Criticisms section, and I see no examples of what you are mentioning there, c) Pcarbon's tactics are the issue: failure to understand the point of highly specific refernces, requiring that every sentence be referenced even when this is grossly unreasonable and unnecessary, misapplication of Wiki policies designed to keep crank physics out to keeping normal chemistry out of a crank chemistry article, and block deletion of my comments, leaving behind sections that lead the reader to a completely different conclusion than was intended. I cannot engage in a line-by-line, word-by-word battle with him or anyone else. In reference to WP:OR#Synthesis_of_published_material_which_advances_a_position, please read footnote 2 of that page. Kirk shanahan (talk) 20:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I have removed footnote 2 of that page: this was a recent addition to the policy, and it does not have consensus as per talk.Pcarbonn (talk) 20:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I like this rule - http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:IAR Kirk shanahan (talk) 22:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

And you actually want to advertise that!? Kevin Baas 14:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely! When a bureaucratic rule or policy detracts significantly from the quality of an article, trash the rule. I think that makes perfect sense. Why do you have a problem with it? Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Because often times peoples opinions about "the quality of an article" are biased and that bias leads to POV, and the only way to overcome that bias is by faithfully and cooperatively applying a set of objective and common-sense rules. That's why the rules where made in the first place.

In this case it is very clear. The existing criticisms of the field are not being allowed to air. That's bias.

Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As discussed below, not all of the pro-CF arguments and counter-anti-CF arguments are being allowed to air, either, per WP:RS and WP:OR. But that is not bias. That is equal treatment of both sides. Again, that's why we have objective criteria: because subjective judgment is susceptible to unconscious bias, whereas objective criteria are not. Kevin Baas 15:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If someone's favorite rule is anarchy, then clearly their goal is not as self-less, to put it mildly. This holds true not just w/respect to Misplaced Pages policy, but in general. Children and criminals hate rules. I don't imagine you'd want others to perceive you that way. Rules are important in every day life, like not interrupting people and treating others respectfully. They work. If someone advertises that they don't want to follow them, well they're usually looked down on and shunned by society, and for good reason. I don't imagine you'd want to be looked down on and shunned. You're basically saying, "off all the rules, like don't call people names, don't bully people, don't revert war, etc., my favorite one is not following any of them." and when people hear that, it translates to "My favorite things to do are call people names, bully them, revert war, etc.". It's a big red flag; you're basically saying "I'm disruptive." And people don't like disruptive people so I don't see why you'd want to advertise that.

And as I have noted elsewhere, the primary rule being violated is NPOV. The reason it is being vioolated is the misapplication of other rules, so that's when the IAR rule comes into play, as it should, since the NPOV rule is being subverted by the other ones. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

No rules need "subvert" any other rules - understood correctly, they complement each other. I believe I have made IAR and the others clear by directly quoting them. However, it seems that either you still do not understand them, or you take issue with them as they stand. If you take issue with them, you should discuss it on their respective talk pages, not this one. Otherwise, I suggest you read them more carefully, and particularly the lines I quoted. If all else fails, I'm sure you can find an administrator or someone on one of the project talk pages to help clarify them for you. Kevin Baas 15:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

But for what it's worth, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that you were just trying to make a point. Understand that Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy and the rules on here are not suggestions. They are enforced. And we have a graduated process for the resolution of disputes. Misplaced Pages is more formal than you might think. If you read the essay on what WP:IAR means you'll see that it's quite far from a blank check. Quoting:

"Ignore all rules" does not mean that every action is justifiable. It is neither a trump card nor a carte blanche. A rule-ignorer must justify how their actions improve the encyclopedia if challenged. Actually, everyone should be able to do that at all times. In cases of conflict, what counts as an improvement is decided by consensus.

They're enforced except for the NPOV one apparently. And it's highly unlikely we will get a 'consensus' when there are 3 people commenting. That's why, in fact, Wiki is anarchical. Kirk shanahan (talk) 13:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Please refer to WP:ANARCHY. Kevin Baas 15:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

So WP:IAR isn't much of a prescription for action and therefore isn't much of a rule. And when it comes to Misplaced Pages's three core content policies (listed in no particular order):

• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view,
• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, and
• Misplaced Pages:No original research

WP:IAR is, for all practical purposes, the rule that gets ignored. The three core content policies are non-negotiable. Quoting:

"The principles upon which these policies are based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus.".

This includes WP:IAR. Furthermore, if you're following here, WP:IAR is trumped by consensus, and consensus is trumped by the three core content policies. As a new user, you should take some time to read and familiarize yourself with these policies, as they permeate the 'pedia. Kevin Baas 15:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

And of course it is my assertion that the NPOV rule is being consistently violated in this article that keeps getting ignored. The unwillingness of certain 'editors' to allow the valid criticisms of the field into the 'Criticisms' section means that the article is unabashedly 'pro' CF, when in fact the scientific consensus on this field, derived from the detailed studies of the 1989 review panel and confirmed by the 2004 panel, is that the field lacks scientific rigor. All I have done in my attepted additions is explain why that it so. Until such critcisms, explained for the layman, are allowed in the article, it will remain biased, which violates the NPOV rule. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly true. There are many criticisms against anti-CF arguments that are not in the article, but are left out because they lack reliable sources per WP:RS and WP:OR. This does not give the article an anti-CF bias. And the reason this does not give the article an anti-CF bias - the *only* reason - is because criticisms against pro-CF arguments that lack reliable sources are likewise left out per WP:RS and WP:OR.

If we were to introduce either pro-CF or anti-CF material into the article that violated WP:RS and/or WP:OR, in order to not also violate WP:NPOV we would have to do the same to both. The net effect of this would be that, though the article might still be neutral (depending on the balance of unsourced statements), the article would contain original research and would no longer be verifiable, thus violating at least two out of three of the core content policies, where before it had violated none (or, at most, one).

If there is pro-CF material that is unsourced or original research, the solution is not to add unsourced or original anti-CF material, but to find reliable sources if available, and if not, remove the offending material. Kevin Baas 14:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

First, nothing I have written in my article edits is OR, so let's drop that OK? If you have examples to the contrary, quote them.

Next, sourcing is needed when specific facts are cited, not when base knowledge of the field is referred to. This is why I asked if I needed to source 2+2=4. If it's a fact in the article, it has to be sourced, right? Of course not, it is basic, it doesn't need a source. The discussion ongoing so far was on the subsection of my edits dealing with nuclear transmutation products. I sourced specific facts (usually by going to Wiki pages!). What is being challenged is the idea that contamination must be adequately dealt with. That is basic to this field. It is ALWAYS present when an effect being discussed can potentially be attributed to a contaminant. In my years of chemical research and education, I have never seen it 'sourced'. It is just basic chemistry that if a component is present in an amount that is enough to cause an effect, it must be examined carefully before one can say it is not causing the effect. 2+2=4.

The fact is that at this time, there is precious little 'antiCF' information in the article that is not presented as having be successfully dealt with. In truth, there are MAJOR issues outstanding. A fair and balanced article would point that out and explain it for the non-technical reader. Instead, such additions are block deleted because of malicious application of rules (which normally are used with good intent and correctly). That is why the article as a whole is biased, critical facts (not opinions) are being blocked. Again, cite your examples where RS is needed. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn has already cited numerous examples of OR edits in your material. Until you acknowledge that, we aren't going to make any progress AT ALL. With all due respect, lately you are seeming less like a human and more like a brick wall. I much prefer talking to humans than brick walls. Not only do I find it more enjoyable, I also find it more productive. Kevin Baas 15:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

A) Welcome to the club. I've felt like I've been talking to brick walls for a couple of weeks.

B)I disagree Pcarbon's assessment of 'original research' being pushed off as fact in my suggested edits is correct. I have repeatedly tried to explain this, and have been repeatedly ignored or redirected to other issues. But I also recall that the majority of his comments were on not sourcing statements, not on 'OR'. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

a) I know. That's what I said. I really think it's a waste of my time. The section is full of synthesis and analysis and i can't believe that you aren't capable of seeing any. pcarbon did it for another section (apparently, my mistake), perhaps you can learn from the numerous examples he brought up? b) ...and I see no examples of what you are mentioning there - I see no examples of anything besides what i was mentioning there. c) Pcarbon's tactics are the issue - obviously not. we are discussing the article here, in particularly with regard to the policy that both me and have cited in relation to your additions. "requiring that every sentence be referenced" ... is policy. Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Kevin Baas 14:19, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And yet you refuse to cite one specific example we can discuss. I can't deal with your vague generalities. I know you don't like putting ideas together in one sentence, but that is not a Wiki policy violation. Especially when all that is going on is trying to explain chemistry concepts to laymen. That's all I did. If you have an example of where you think I do more than that, please cite it specifically so we can discuss. Maybe I did do so, but I don't believe so at this time. So help me out. Pick one! Just one case please! By the way Pcarbon did not do this as far as I remember. He disliked intensely my using Scott Little as an example, for good reason, as he refuses to allow the anti-CF view to exist in this article (making it a biased one...NPOV violation?). But he didn't pick any detailed example except this. He also resorted to vague generalities. By the way, I am essentially using the Socratic method here. You have made general statements I disagree with, so I want to discuss in detail what you think you are seeing. However, you're not participating. (By the way, read the Socratic method article, a very technical article in philosophy, and every sentence is NOT referenced.) You have gone way over the top on this one Kevin. Do you understand that you are adversely affecting the NPOV of the article? Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

To be specific: you discuss contamination in electrolytic cells, while the transmutation evidence provided in the article comes from a gas system. For the anomalous isotopic ratio, you say "cold fusion researchers typically ignore for unspecified reasons". However, Iwamura does consider molecular ions (p 4647). Surely, they are bad experiments to which your criticism would apply. But your criticism does not affect the good ones, and does not bring value to the article. That's probably why you cannot find a reliable source for it.

Your right, I didn't comment on gas cells. Would you like me too? The issue remains the same, only the chemical transport mechanisms change. I have commented extensively on Iwamura's work in spf when he first started publishing, and I doubt your statement is supportable. I also have been reading Storms' 2007 book, and he also does a little handwaving at the problem, but he concludes it isn't real WITHOUT CITING ONE REFERENCE. He says for exaple (pg 96) "Some of the reported elements are normal impurities made visible after being concentrated on the surface. However, many of the elements, especially those having abnormal isotope ratios listed in Table 9 cannot be explained this way." He then discusses several claims, without ever mentioning the molecular ion problem. Note that he has focused the nuclear transmutation claims on the isotope ratio problem, but doesn't mention the potential impact of H, D, and maybe even T on these numbers or discuss how the issue is avoided/neutralized. That is the criticism, they don't consider it, even when it is blatant as in the Yamada example I cited. And I can't find a 'reliable source' for that because a) contamination is ALWAYS an issue at trace levels, and b) no one but me is watching the field from the skeptics side, so if I don't publish, it doesn't get published, and I don't think its worth the effort, because IT IS AN OBVIOUS PROBLEM. What is so hard about understanding that mass 137 might be CsD2 as opposed to La (especially when one acknowledges CsD is present!)? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

What is so hard ? That transmutations happen in deuterium experiment, but not in control experiment with hydrogen. You would have to propose and demonstrate a mechanism for this selectivity for your argument to hold (unless you are a pseudoskeptic, of course). Pseudoskepticism should be resisted as much as pseudoscience. Pcarbonn (talk) 05:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Ummm...P, it's called 'the isotope effect'. H and D are very significantly different in their metal hydride chemistry. That's why we can use Pd to separate the isotopes. H is never a good control for D when you are talking metal hydrides. As a matter of fact, those who think the scientific method requires that you run a 'control' at the same time you run an experiment need to study this issue carefully, because it clearly shows that the real crux of scientific research is _being in control_, not in running a control. That's why the inability of the CFers to control their results is a clear indicator they are barking up the wrong tree with respect to what they think is the primary mechanism of the Fleischmann-Pons-Hawkins Effect.

Now as to the Iwamura paper, please give me the credit to understand the field in which I am employed. I don't recall the details of the paper today, and I'm not going to worry about it either, but I know that if my criticisms could have been addressed by considering the H data, I wouldn't have brought anything about it up. The simple explanation, which may not be the correct one (I'd have to look at the paper again) is that when you have a spread of naturally occuring isotopes and you add one to all (from H), the apparent spread will not change, especially if the highest mass is very small in contribution. But when you add D, you are adding two, which cause an apparent shift in disribution because some masses will be changed more than others. It all depends on the original bare element duitribution details. The other simple explanation is that the CFers routinely fail to report thier 'control' results in any way other than verbally, which is not full disclosue, which is required if one expects others to accept a revolutionary new concept. It is NOT accepted just based on assertions.

So now that I have 'explained' my skepticism, are you going to remove your implicit ad hominem attack against me? Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I have made an ad hominem attack. I just suggested that your argument is an example of pseudoskepticism. Since your response does not provide any experimental data in support of your explanation, I'll also consider it as a plausible explanation at best, and thus another example of your pseudoskepticism. Pcarbonn (talk) 12:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, get real. I assert that CFers are psuedoscientists AND explain why I say that and I get jumped all over. You assert that what I write is an example of pseudoskeptisicsm, WITHOUT explaining why, which you couldn't do as I always back up my comments with explanation, and you say you're not doing anything wrong??? Double standard again! Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought I had already made abundantly clear the difference between -ism and -ist. Apparently my efforts were in vain. Kevin Baas 15:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

That's because there is no difference in the communicated message between "That guy is doing pseudoscience." and "That guy is a pseudoscientist." Functionally, they are the same statement expressed somewhat differently. I think you may be infected with that dread germ "politicus correcticus", which alters your brainwaves so that certain preprogrammed phrases/words are automatically viewed as containing content that isn't actually there. Yes, it MAY be there in some cases, but when the speaker/writer of the word or phrase explains in detail why the phrase is being used, you can normally assume there is no perjorative content over and above that nominally contained in the word, i.e. saying 'He is a criminal.' does contain some negative connotations in most circles, but it does not necessarily contain anything beyond that. In a technical discussion, further perjorative content is usually indicated by the use of the word or phrase in an attempt to end the dicussion when the debate is stalemated.

With respect to my case, I used the 'forbidden word' to decribe the activities of cold fusion researchers, and I was specific as to what they do that qualifies them for that simplifying label. In Pcarbon's case, he just applies it, especially when I have just finished giving detailed reasons why I am skeptical about a certain claim. Giving details is not pseudoskepticism, in fact it is the opposite. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, my efforts were in vain. When you feel like comprehending what I have addressed ad nausuem, you will have your answers, as they have already been spelled out for you very clearly. In the interim, I won't waste my breath repeating what I have already said many times in many ways, because you clearly do not care to hear it. This matter is closed to me. Kevin Baas 15:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You also say: "any He evidence presented by cold fusion researchers MUST always be accompanied by a full analysis report of the examined gases (including masses for common air components) before it can be accepted, a condition that has not yet been met". First, what is the basis for this requirement ? Second, the SRI team did do it: they report that the ratio of 3He/4He significantly differs from its natural abundance, where 3He is a common air component. Surely, if one shows that the cell is Helium leak-tight, that Helium production is correlated to the heat generation and that the ratio 3He/4He significantly differs from its natural abundance, he has a strong case. That's what SRI said. Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought Pcarbonn (talk) 17:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The basis is the scientific method, which requires full disclosure, i.e. "archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists". Specifically a criticism is out there that says one of the top dogs in the field sent samples to a trace-level MS expert for analysis to confirm the production of 4He that were almost totally air! That means another top dog (and any 'lesser') researcher too is fully capable of NOT sealing their apparati from air inleakage. The level of importance of the claim, given the criticism, means that the claimants must fully disclose all relevant experimental details in support of their claims.

The scientific method requires publishing in peer-reviewed papers. That applies to criticism too. Misplaced Pages reports on published papers.

The scientific method is so much more than just that. Peer review is designed to be lenient, so some trash will alsways get published. The point is, that it is quickly pointed out by the interested scientific community at large. That's exactly what happened in the early days of CF, but the CFers have not addressed the majority of the issues raised, most focusing on contamination issues. Instead they withdrew from the scientific review process by circling their wagons and only talking to themselves. That's why the vast majority of their 'publications' are proceedings of ICCF conferences and the like. I'm reading Storms 2007 book. I checked the first 300 of the 646 references he cites in Chapter 4, and guess what, about 60% are to such Proceedings! The two specific cases I cite in my attempted additions to this page are their response to my CCS criticism, and their response to the Clarke criticism, or should I say non-response. In Storms book, he doesn't mention my final rebuttal to his comments, even thought they were published back-to-back, and he was privy to what I was writing during review! Neither does he mention Clarke's criticism (although he does mention the unexpected detection of 3He). Nothing but bias! Wave your hands at the critics and that's adequate. Not quite for good science... 192.33.240.30 (talk) 20:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Please beware of pseudoskepticism: i.e. beware of assuming criticism requires no burden of proof, beware of making unsubstantiated counter-claims, of offering counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence, of suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it. Using the same tactics, I could say this: if we accept that top dog researcher in CF is capable of not fully sealing their apparati, we can also accept that the trace-level MS expert might let air leak in. But that's not in line with the scientific method, the way I see it. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The 3He/4He ratio has nothing to do with air inleakage. 3He comes from T decay and is not normally present is air unless T decay is ongoing nearby. The ratio that Clarke use was He/Ne, but that wasn't even necessary as massive N2 signals were deteected. Your comment "Surely, if one shows that the cell is Helium leak-tight" is ABSOLUTELY the crux of the matter. No one has done that yet. To show it is leak tight, you need to do several things: a) show no N2 is present, b) show the 4He to Ne ratio is not that of air, c) show that you can accurately measure He conc by a full experimental apparatus test, not just a MS instrument check, and d)show that the amount of He4 produced is significantly greater than air concentration. 3He being present is strange. But those results are far fewer than 4He, and not replicated in detail, so the ugly issue of CONTAMINATION (this time of T) comes up.

I have a strong applied statistics background, and I find the 'correlations' presented by CF researchers to not be compelling. The problems are that they often are on limited data sets and not of high quality (note that a correlation coefficient of .8 is not hard to get). For example, in the reference you cite, Figure 1 is just such an example. They have 6 data points, and a straight line through them that originates at (0,0). However, 5 of the 6 points are clustered and a quick look suggests no correlation to excess heat (slope of fit = 0). The 6th point is offset a bit, and might drive computing a non-zero slope, but the fit appears to have been forced through the origin, which invalidates the correlation coefficient. Forcing it through the origin is like adding a large number of (0,0) points to the data to cause a desired result to obtain, i.e to go through (0,0). And in the end the correlation coefficient is only 0.78. I could go on but we have better things to do. (But note your criteria for accepting the McKubre case have all been directly questioned here.) Oh, and the McKubre reference you cite is from a Proceeedings...

We are getting into extreme technical details here which are probably not kosher for a Misplaced Pages talk page. We need to refocus on the article and specifically the Criticsims section here. I have cited the basis, as I did before, and explained it here. Let's put the comments on He detection that were deleted back in. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:49, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, this is not the place to discuss these issues. We are not a peer review committee. Science Journals have such committees. That's why wikipedia rely on them. There is absolutely no way that the unsourced statements that I challenge will get on wikipedia, unless they are properly sourced. And again, please beware of pseudoskepticism. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm more concenred with psuedoscience. Unwillingness to consider alternative explanations (i.e. 'criticisms') is a dead give-away of psuedoscientists. 192.33.240.30 (talk) 20:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

You may be concerned with pseudoscience. Please note however that a majority of wikipedia editors rejected the notion that cold fusion might be pseudoscience. See here. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Those responding rejected a proposal that the article on CF be placed in the category Pseudoscience. That is not the same as taking a stance on whether CF is pseudoscience or not. My personal opinion is that CF research is a minor and contested field of scientific research. Some of those who research in the field are scientists, others are not. Whether there is a genuine CF effect is something that scientists are far from agreeing on. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

You probably won't agree with what I said. The point of the policy is to avoid having to discuss controversial statements like these, endlessly. Either you find a source, or you don't. If you don't, I have the right to delete it: the policy saves a lot of time to both of us, while not impacting the quality of the article. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You may also want to read the warning at the top of this page that says that "This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute": "Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information." Pcarbonn (talk) 19:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn pretty well covered what I was going to say (I'll get you some specific examples when I have more time.), but i'd like to add one thing: You said "Do you understand that you are adversely affecting the NPOV of the article?". Do you realize that I have not made any edits to the article in a really long time? How could I be "adversely affecting the NPOV of the article" when I'm not even affecting it in the first place? That strikes me as a little ridiculous. Kevin Baas 20:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn's complaints were oriented around referencing, yours were oriented towards drawing unwarranted conclusions. To me they are separate issues. I did find it amusing however that when I pointed out that footnote, P went off and deleted it. Pretty typical. Your position prevents my additions from being restored, thus you are affecting the article, because no real, valid criticisms are adequately described as it stands now. I look forward to your specific examples (seriously). Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:58, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe I gave specific examples a few paragraphs above (3 indents before, starting with "To be specific:"). If not, please clarify how I can help further. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Done in detail in 2 of 3 cases. I probably have done the Iwamura case on spf, but I'll have to check. I may get back to this in a day oor two (or more). Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't bother. You'd better look for proper sources. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh but it was realtively easy. My comments on the paper you refernce are found in the thread "New cold fusion paper by Iwamura et al." started by Jed Rothwell on July 9, 2002. What's so funny is that in it, I make all the same arguments I make here today! 192.33.240.30 (talk) 20:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

And just so you know, we're not trying to gang up on you or anything, we're just trying to make the article better. As you can see, OR isn't taken lightly on wikipedia, and if somebody put this article up for review (e.g. WP:FA), that would be one of the first criticisms of it. We'd have to fix that in order for this article to achieve the coveted FA status. So we're trying to fix it now. Don't take it personally - we're perfectionists here, and if you hang out here enough, sooner or later you will be too ;-). Kevin Baas 15:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Iwamura

Dr. Shanahan, you are not going to win this argument by continuing to argue like this. You criticize articles published in reputable scientific journals, such as Iwamura's paper published in Japanese Journal of Applied Physics. This article describes how they have analyzed the possibility of contamination, and rejected it based on the experimental evidence they have. They also described how they distinguished molecular ions from atomic ones. Despited the evidence, you pretend that they have not made the necessary analysis, you propose a possible explanation without any experimental evidence to convince us that it can explain the observed behavior, and you still have not provided any published scientific paper related to the topic to support your opinion.

For the record, here are some quotes from Iwamura's paper:

"The offset voltage technique is based on the fact that the kinetic energydistributio n of atomic and molecular ions is entirelydiffere nt and the distribution of atomic ion energyis broader than that of molecular ions. If we filter the central part of the distribution by applying a certain offset voltage, all signals decrease, however, the signal of molecular ions decreases much more than that an atomic ions. Therefore we can select onlythe signals of atomic ions."

The key word is 'much'. First, how much is much? It is 'total'? They use an 80eV offset voltage, which from my quick checking is quite large. That really decreases signal strengths overall. I have a lot of questions on how effective this approach is, but (see below) it isn't really necessary to pursue this idea.

In fairness however, coupled with the fact that Storms also waves his hands at the contamination issue, I am willing to substitute 'inadequately addressed' for 'ignored' in what I wrote. Unfortunately, that begs some explanation (in the article) and people ar already complaining about length. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"The first point is that the XPS analysis of the nuclear products is performed in the vacuum chamber. We do not expose the Pd complex test pieces to an air environment during experiments, and w monitor pressure in the chamber. Monitoring pressure enables us to detect anygaseou s contaminants invading into the chamber, as the test apparatus is located in a clean room where temperature and humidityare kept constant."

Ok, fine. But that's not where the problem is most likely to arise from, so this statement is of marginal value. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"The second point is that since the detected material, Pr, belongs to rare earth elements, it is difficult to assume that Pr accumulated on the Pd complex test pieces by an ordinary process. The purity of the used D2 gas is over 99.6% and most of the impurityis H2. The other impurities detected by a mass spectrometer are N2, D2O, O2, CO2 , CO and hydrocarbons; their amounts are all under 10 ppm. We analyzed Pd complex test pieces deposited with Cs by glow discharge mass spectrometryand confirmed that the amount of Pr in the test pieces was under the detection limit (0.01 ppm). If we assume that all of the Pr at 0.01 ppm distributed in the Pd test piece (0.1 mm, 0.7 g) gathered in the analyzed area, a circle of 5mm diameter and 20 �A depth from the surface of the test piece, the number of Pr atoms attained the same order (1013 atoms) of the detected Pr However, it is impossible for all of the distributed Pr in the Pd test piece to gather in the narrow surface area against the flow of D2 gas without the application of a specific force on Pr, because such a phenomenon breaks the law of thermodynamics."

As noted previously on these Talk pages, the problem is that Pr and Cu have the same XPS peaks. Cu is a very likely contaminant. I note in the paper that the authors quote purity numbers on all the chemicals used, except the CaO! When I critiqued this article originally I was able to find a standard analysis label for CaO that listed significant Cu contamination. So, it depends on what they bought and used. Further, CaO was sputtered by an ion beam, but CaO is an oxide and will static charge, which will deflect the ion beam to the nearest conductive point, which in these systems is often Cu containing.

The neat thing about the quoted paragraph is that it shows that 0.01 ppm of contaminant can easily be detected by the SIMS technique, illustrating what I said in my CF article additions, that SIMS (and all surface analysis) is a trace level technique. In fact it is ultratrace. Iwamura, et al's final line is flat out wrong. Surface segregation, dealloying, etc., is a well known phenomenon in surface science. It was a talk on just that in Fe-Ni alloys that got me interested in surface science for my graduate degree. BTW, the flowing D2 may well assist segregation processes. I have read some Russian papers on this for lighter elements. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"The third point is that the isotope ratio of produced elements is anomalous. In this paper, we show the isotopic anomalyof Mo. It provides evidence that the detected material, Mo, was produced bycertain nuclear processes. If the Mo were a contaminant, such efficient isotope separations would not be possible."

In http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg20731.html, the comment is made that at ICCF13, Takahaski, et al tried to replicate the Iwamura results and found that the Mo was actually S. The fact that Iwamura detect masses in the Mo region just points to a tiny Mo contaminant. The principal change in Iwamura's data (fig. 9) is that mass 96 has grown dramatically. That's the iosotope shift he claims. Mass 96 would be the triatomic S3. Thus further suggests the mass filtering by Iwamura was inadequate. Lots more details on methodology and results needed before we can accept the 'Pr' and 'Mo' findings from Iwamura. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"The last point is that the elements detected by the D2 gas permeation varydepending on the given elements at the beginning of the experiments. In our experiments, Pr or Mo was detected when Cs or Sr was deposited on the surface of Pd complex test pieces, respectively. It is very difficult to assume that the detected elements change depending on the given elements byexte rnal contamination."

the contaminants present would also depend on the starting materials, so it isn't 'difficult to assume' at all. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"The above discussion stronglysuggests the existence of low-energynuclear transmutations induced by a simple method."

No it doesn't. See above comments. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

"We noticed that a certain rule exists between given and produced elements.13) The increase in mass number is 8, and the increase in atomic number is 4. At present, we do not have a complete theorythat can explain the obtained experimental results without a few assumptions."

Just shows you how silly rules (theories) can be generated when you misinterpret the data. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As said repeatedly, we are willing to include any criticism that is reliable and verifiable, but not self-published original research. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't used any self-published original reasearch other than Little and Yamada to illustrate one specific point and NOT to draw a conclusion, which I still say is within the bounds of Wiki policy.

BTW, for the record, I don't have problems using Proceedings as references as long as one understands the problems with them. In general Proceedings suffer a little less critical review than regular journal papers. Proceedings from a highly biased crowd are expected to have even less critical review. But typically published DATA is not impacted nearly as much as interpretations. Thus I often find facts and tidbits from such sources that are of value. My prior comments on the sources used in the 'pro' section were intended to point out that the same 'standards' that are being applied to me were not being enforced in that section (until I pointed out the problem).

Also, criticising articles published in peer-reviewed journals is common and expected in science. Publishing is not a declaration that the Truth has been found. It is a request for comment from the general scientific community. The peer-review system does not guarantee that trash is not published. In fact it is well-known that a lot does get published. that is by design, because we don't want to accidentally suppress real discoveries. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, you are going nowhere without proper sources. As you say, "criticising articles published in peer-reviewed journals is common and expected in science", so, why can't you publish your original research in scientific journals, as you have in the past ? Other critics of cold fusion did not find any problems in publishing their critique. We'll be happy to include it in wikipedia when you do. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

So we're back to that old saw again hmmm? You have the key in your comment 'original research'. This is not original research it is basic chemistry, a fact you refuse to comprehend. It won't be published because it's not original research! That's why it needs to be in the Criticisms section! Good grief! What does it take to get through to you! This is like saying 2+2 = 4! So anyway, I'm calling it. No more debate, at all, with Pcarbon. He's too biased to deal with. I may respond to Kevin if he ever get the specific example I asked for, but I may not. We'll just have to see if and when he posts. End result - Wiki loses. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it is not like saying 2+2=4. A good scientists would formulate your opinion as an hypothesis, and go out to test it experimentally. Thanks anyway for your other input. Pcarbonn (talk) 20:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

In this case, you could purposely add contaminants to the CaO layer, and see if you could observe them appearing on the Pd surface. You could measure the delay corresponding to the time required for the migration of the contaminants through the Pd layer, and see if it is compatible with Iwamura's observation.

Another case demonstrates the importance of experimental confirmation to avoid the pitfalls of pseudoskepticism. In 1990, Gary Taubes suggested that Bockris had spiked his cells with tritiated water, a then-plausible explanation for Bockris' tritium observations. Storms went on to test this hypothesis, and found out that the observations did not match Bockris' (see his report).

Pseudoskepticism should be resisted as much as pseudoscience. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:52, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Bockris investigation

The current article states that this article is evidence that a panel found Bockris "not guilty of violating Texas A&M standards in proposing, conducting or reporting controversial research." However, most of the article is about transmuting materials into gold and silver, not about cold fusion. It seems most likely that the investigators were not commenting on the Bockris cold fusion work, so this article should not be included in the wikipedia cold fusion article. Does anyone disagree (besides Pcarbonn)?

Also, it is not a good idea to have a major claim in the article which is only supported by an editorial from a non-mainstream journal . Does anyone know of a more mainstream source which discusses investigation of the Bockris work? Olorinish (talk) 11:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I have now provided a reference to a New York Times article. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

More eyes needed again

This is getting arcane and hard to follow. Perhaps necessarily. All I can really understand as a non-scientist is that Kirk is getting a hard time. Having a genuine researcher in the field present and editing under his own name is potentially helpful but it's not the normal state of affairs so we all need to be cautious. Please stick to the advice at the top of the page about being welcoming. The article needs more opinions, so I'm going to post a note again on the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. I'm also going to ask Kirk a question on his talk page for my own clarification. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I can see that for a non-scientist. The primary problem I am having is with basic explanatory comments I wrote to help the reader understand the criticisms I am listing being taken as some kind of original thought and thereefore needing refernces. They aren't available, because they are underlying concepts to the field of chemistry. That's why I keep referring to sourcing 2+2=4. I welcome more eyes, and I will go now to check my talk page. Kirk shanahan (talk) 17:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Which facts in particular were removed as unsourced?

Here is a sentence in the article which is very difficult for me to understand: "His response included a breakdown of the 10 experimental runs analyzed into 4 sets based on what seemed to be a clear time-dependent shift in the calibration constants. This time dependence suggests a chemical aging effect that can be reversed by appropriate in-cell processing, further emphasizing the non-nuclear nature proposed by Shanahan."

What is meant by "breakdown," "analyzed into," "time-dependent shift," "chemical aging," and, "appropriate in-cell processing," in that sentence? 69.228.210.225 (talk) 02:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you have read the version of Sept. 17, 2008 before the large sections I had added to the Criticisms section were deleted. After the deletion, only disconnected bits and pieces were left, the sentence you cite being one of them. I wouldn't have had a problem editing for clarity if what I had written made no sense to some, but the block deletions were a problem in my opinion. So, you can get some context from the Sept. 17 version. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Those two sentences are the same in the version of September 17th, with no more explanation for the terms I asked about than there is now. What do those terms mean in those sentences? 69.228.230.16 (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I was hoping that seeing them in their original context would have clairfied. In my paper I analyzed 10 'runs'. A run was an experimental sequence where the applied voltage to the cell was ramped up for 0 to a maximum and then back down to 0 (or near it). If you plot the calibration constants as a function of time (or simply in sequence), it is clear that there is a pattern present. I identified what seemed to 'reset' the pattern and start it over, and this resulted in being able to group the 10 runs into 4 sets containing 3,3,1,and 3 runs each. The CF 'activity' systematically reduced in the series to level measured with 'dead' electrodes. This strongly suggests a chemical process altering the electrodes systematically in time, i.e. a chemical aging effect. Since it could be reversed, i.e. the activity restored, this adds to the impression that chemistry is at work, not nuclear physics. BTW 'analyzed into' should not be connected as you have done, it is 'runs analyzed' and 'into'. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I altered the wording slightly. Any improvement? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Not for me. Would you please completely rephrase the summary in terms of the hypothesis (chemical instead of nuclear, right?), the data, and the reason(s) the data support the hypothesis? IwRnHaA (talk) 06:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is one of the sentences added by Shanahan. I have removed many sentences for lack of sources. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems you also deleted some sourced statements. For example, cited to Little and Yamada. You removed the citation to Little, so that can't have been an accident. Why? 69.228.210.225 (talk) 08:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The Little source is a self-published page on his website. Little has not published any paper on cold fusion in reliable scientific journals. Therefore, he cannot be considered as a reliable source according to WP:SPS. We should be particularly cautious about such sources on a controversial topic like cold fusion. Yamada is not offered as a source for the paragraph in dispute, but rather, is criticized without any sources. After removing the unsourced criticism, there is no reason to cite Yamada anymore. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

In his continuing attempt to make sure no valid criticisms get out about cold fusion, Pcarbon wiped out another part of my additions. I have restored them. Some simple editorial changes that he made (such as dropping the (a) and (b)) wouldn't have been a problem, but he wiped out the entire fact that in his 2007 book, one of the leading cold fusion scientists refused to fully address the issues I raised in my publications. That is a crucial fact regarding the current state of affairs with the conventional explanation of the Fleischmann-Pons-Hawkins Effect. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't see it as something as important as you do. I fail to understand why it is important, since the arguments presented are the same as the ones in the previous paragraph, and no sources are presented that are not in the article already. Again, please beware of WP:UNDUE weight, and of writing about oneself. I'm open to comment from others, though. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As this is the 'More eyes needed' section, I heartily request just that. Pcarbon is heavily biased and incapable of fairly editing any critical material. For those other eyes, there are two levels to all the criticisms that I have added (the ones present before were primarily from the 1989 DOE report, and, at least in part, were somewhat adequately addressed, and thus were of historical value only and certainly not very critical at all). The first level is the technical one, i.e., there is a simple and valid conventional explanation for apparent excess heat signals. The second level is that the researchers whose work is impacted by these criticisms routinely fail to incorporate any response to these criticisms, which is a very telling observation. To get a true picture of what is going on in the field today, one needs to know, for example, that Storms completely ignores the final rebuttal of his objections to the CCS problem, and further concludes in his book that it is not an issue! That is downright misrepresentation on his part, and that fact needs to be brought out in the Criticisms section. Note that he does the same thing with the Clarke results on He detection (not mentioned in the book), and Storms inadequately addresses the contamination issue (in that case there is no specific reference that can be quoted, as only basic chemistry is needed to understand the issue). Mainline science does not accept claims from scientists who ignore their critics. Kirk shanahan (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I now understand your point. No need to make ad hominem attacks: I'm perfectly capable of accepting other's opinions. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the only source that you have provided for your opinion is Dr. Britz review of Storms book : "The book makes a good case for cold fusion. There are some weaknesses. Some of the figures are poorly done, and the text is often awkward. Some expert criticism of Storms' calorimetry (Shanahan, 2006) is not mentioned, . Nevertheless, these weaknesses are comparatively minor and do not detract from the major message of the book, the rather solid experimental evidence of some exotic process taking place, from a careful and self-critical researcher." (cited by New energy Times)

While Dr. Britz gives notability to the idea that Storms' book has weaknesses, it does not exactly support your sweeping statements on "the true picture of what's going on in the field today" or on "downright misrepresentations", on the contrary. Your generalisation is largely overblown and exagerated. While I could see it mentionned in an article on Storms, I don't believe it belongs in the cold fusion article, for WP:DUE weight reasons. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Following a brief description of his calorimeter, Storms (p. 41, chap. 3) remarks that a 1.2% agreement in Joule and electrolytic calibration “demonstrates the calibration errors proposed by Shanahan are absent.” Ref. is to my 2002 paper. On page 172 (chap. 7), Storms writes that “Shanahan has proposed that…” and “This error is shown by Storms to apply to neither flow nor Seebeck calorimetry,” Ref is to my 2002 paper. Ref. is to a Storms presentation at a conference in 2005. Ref is to the Storms 2006 comment. My 2006 rebuttal to that, published back-to-back with Storms' 2006 comment, is NOT mentioned at all in either chapter. According to the Index, these are the only times my work is mentioned. These are facts. That's what was written. That's what was sourced. Check the book yourself if you think I am lying. Therefore your cites of rules and regulations are irrelveant, and just serve to demonstrate the extent you will go to to try to suppress my additions.

Further, what you apparently didn't get from my comment above, is this treatment from Storms (and may I add Kowalski's Web page does the same thing) is notable for those seeking to determine what is going on in the field, and thus is a valid addition in and of itself in the Wiki article. Remember "Some EXPERT criticism of Storms' calorimetry (Shanahan, 2006) is not mentioned," and "Mainline science does not accept claims from scientists who ignore their critics." Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the fact that your recent expert work is not cited in Storms' book. I'm saying that we don't need to give it a full paragraph and thus undue weight, based on what Dr. Britz say. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

In the last paragraoph, there are 4 sentences. I agree the second is superfluous, I didn't write it as I recall. If the second sentance is removed, the third needs some slight modifications to make sense. But those three sentences constitute the explanation of the problem with the Storms 2007 book. Thus, they are necessary and not redundant, as the other paragraphs do not deal with that issue. I will make the changes. Kirk shanahan (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I have removed an offensive phrase from the article: "With funding from the US DOE". This phrase was added by Pcarbon in an attempt to discredit my work by associating it with the 'big, bad DOE'. In fact, funding sources are irrelevant to this discussion. The work was published in a mainline, peer-reviewed journal where funding sources do not impact that process. Unless all work referenced in the article is equally described, the application of such a phrase ONLY to me is biased. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Please WP:Assume good faith. That the DOE is funding your work is relevant when some say that DOE is not financing work on cold fusion at all. It's also interesting to note that DOE held the 2004 panel AFTER you have published your work with their financing. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think it comes as a surprise to just about everyone that you have such a low opinion of the U.S. Department of Energy. Most people would take pride in having their work funded by the DOE, whereas you apparently take offense. I don't think anybody could have anticipated that so I don't really think it was meant to be offensive. It seems to me that, quite to the contrary, it was meant to give weight, notability, and credit to your research. But to each his own, I suppose, and I see no harm in removing it. But in the future try to WP:Assume good faith. Kevin Baas 17:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I began this exercise assuming good faith, but I was proven wrong. I can't assume that anymore.

I work at the Savannah River National Laboratory, which is a 'goco' (government owner, contractor operated), thus anything I do that gets published via work gets stamped with the 'DOE-funded' label, and since CF involves Pd, and I am a Pd-H chemist, I can't do it from home by the terms of my employment agreement. However, most of my managers can't understand why I want to worry about CF because "everyone knows it's bad science". I have taken as much flak over this as any other CFer. So don't assume DOE 'supports' me in anything but an indirect manner, just like the way NRL 'supports' CF research in its ballpark.

With regards to the 2004 review, when I found out about it, it was just about to happen (within a week or two). I contacted our rep. in the Office that was running the review and sent him/her my paper and additional comments, and was promised it would be passed on to 'the right people'. I personally know two of the reviewers, one of whom referenced my work in the written comments, and the other being one of the oral presentation panel, and neither ever saw a word of my work. I am not down on DOE, I am down on the review. It was inadequate if it was intended to get a full picture. I doubt we'd be having this debate if they had looked at my work and let me present the counterview. Fourtunately, they did specify publically what was considered, so we all know my work wasn't. Also note the discussion on my user page. I actually got involved with CF in about 1995, with my first publication submission in 2000.

Kevin, you haven't followed the CF field. They routinely harrange DOE for not supporting CF research. For an 'insider' like Pcarbon, the comment was an allusion to a 'conspiracy theory', because 'if DOE were fair, they'd be funding CF'. The idea is that I am a 'paid labcoat' that DOE trots out to 'confuse' the public about the reality of CF because DOE is really run by the oil companies. All hogwash of course, but it is a direct slam to my integrity. BTW, the reason I got into CF was that if what they say is true, I had the potential of suffering physical harm from an exploding sample, or releasing tritium to the environment due to same. When I asked my collegues why I shouldn't worry, no one could answer (because they all know CF is 'bad science'). Personal safety was my concern. Intellectual curiosity kept me going. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Kirk, thanks for the clarification on the DOE funding. I now agree that it should not be stated in the article.

Again please assume good faith. I was the one to defend the view that our article should represent the 2004 DOE panel's conclusion. See my personal page for the history of this article. Why would I do that if I consider them as part of a conspiracy ? I fully agree that the review had shortcomings, but I believe it affects both sides. I would fully support another review by the DOE if I was asked, and I would hope it would be done properly this time. I'm not sure what would be the outcome though. I doubt that your speculation on CCS would carry the day, but my opinion is irrelevant, and WP is not a crystal ball. My reason is that you have analyzed only one experiment (which uses Pt rather than the usual Pd), you have offered only an hypothesis which still needs to be verified experimentally, and there are still reports of unexplained radiations, even if not at the level expected in view of the excess heat.

You call me an 'insider' : I don't have anything at stakes in this, other than my intellectual curiosity and the wish that researchers provide a better world for my kids, if there is any chance they can do it. My (small) contribution is to present the state of the issue as it is documented in reliable sources, and to prevent the spread of unsourced and unscientific opinions like 'everybody knows that CF is bad science'. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

You say: "Fourtunately, they did specify publically what was considered, so we all know my work wasn't." Please elaborate, because as far as I know the presentations made by the researchers during the one-day session was not made public. I have no indication that your work was not considered (the only indications that your work may have been considered are your statements above, and the leaked comment from reviewer #5, who may very well have mentionned it during the one-day session). Pcarbonn (talk) 20:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I find I have to correct myself. The information that was once posted when the report was issued included the full presentation and comments but has apparently been taken down. That it was there can be seen from the link to it found at the bottom of this page: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/archive.cfm/pubDate=%7bd%20'2004-12-08'%7d#energy . Therefore, I seem to have no hard proof that this happened, which makes my claims simply my word. Take that as you see fit. Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just examined the 'leaked comment' and it is the documentation that I read at the time of the report. My memory may be faulty, but I thought I read this on the DOE Web Site where the report was posted. In any case, the context is now corrupted for this document, so it can't be used to support my previous claim anyway. (Reviewers 1-9 were the written-only reviews.) Kirk shanahan (talk) 11:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The document submitted by the CF researchers is already cited in the article (see Hagelstein). Is that what you mean to have seen ? I have never seen any copies of the 8 or 9 presentations made during the one-day session. I would be very interested in any info leading to them. If you have seen them on the net in the past, you may still find them on the wayback machine. Pcarbonn (talk) 12:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

For the record, what I recall reading in early 2005 was the Hagelstein paper, the DOE report, and the reviewer comments. That latter may or may not have been the 'leaked comment' mentioned above. I thought it was all on the DOE Web site at the time, but I may be wrong. In the end, all this means is that there is no visible proof my work was not considered during the review. I will stop claiming that now, and simply assert that that was the case. Take that comment FWIW to you. Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The statements a person makes reflects their character, and your statement "I began this exercise assuming good faith, but I was proven wrong. I can't assume that anymore." particularly stands out to me in this respect, and I shouldn't have to point out the irony that this statement was in response to two people proving your bad faith assumption wrong.

I'm sorry, but what are you reading? You completely misrepresent the situation. This particular discussion centers around the "With funding from the US DOE" phrase. I explained why this was a problem above and below. Pcarbon's first response was to cite rules at me again, which, again, weren't relevant. The particular problem I am having is that he doesn't stop there, he block deletes my additions, most of which are still in the 'deleted' state. You support him. I still contend this opposition is unwarranted. As a person who has 'published' a sarcastic note of the same ilk as those quoted below, Pcarbon is not unbiased or seriously trying to be neutral in my opinion. My comment that you quote was in response to P's attempt to stifle me once more by citing irrlevant rules, and I stand by it. Kirk shanahan (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

"Kevin, you haven't followed the CF field." - correct. "They routinely harrange DOE for not supporting CF research." - i'm an outsider but i can say with confidence that this is a misrepresentation. and it certainly doesn't follow that they think the DOE dubious or that them providing some funding somehow magically makes your results erroneous - that's flimsy even for an ad hominem argument. And to assume that someone - anyone - was trying to make such an egregiously flawed argument is downright offensive. Kevin Baas 16:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the truth usally clears things up a bit. Take a look at these Kevin. It only took me 15-20 min. to come up with this. I didn't check sci.physics.fusion, but I'm sure there's lots more there establishing a long tradition illustrated by the following.

Storms: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01633.html

(blames DOE for failing to act in the text) http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/editorial.html

In Storms 2007 book, pps 17-18, he describes not participating in the 2004 reviwew because it was "a waste of my time". He may be right, but it illustrates his attitude.

On page 91 he is talking about He evidence and speaks of the DOE review thusly: "Or this information can be simply ignored, as it was by many members of the DoE panel..." Dovetails with his Vortex comments well doesn't it.

Mitchell Scwartz (editor Cold Fusion Times): http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html (look for: "DESPITE the US Constitution, the directives of the US Congress, the President, Secretary") (also: "because of the competition with oil and hot fusion, cold fusioneers have been attacked for 17 years by the some in the DoE, the US Patent Office, and some hot fusion physicists to a degree that is unknown in other competing energy and science fields.") http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html#PTO connections (look for "But this has so far been obstructed by many including some in the DOE and the US Patent Office,")

enough from Mitchell Schwartz. Lots more available I'm sure.

Rothwell (LENR-CANR Website manager and all around CF aficionado): http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01660.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg03246.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg21601.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg21605.html http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg17808.html

Rothwell, but note the Storms and Miles connection: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg03309.html "The DOE Lies Again" @ http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LENRCANRthedoelies.pdf (also note the tomne of the discussion re; Miles proposal on the LENR-CANr website.)

enough from Rothwell. Tons more available I know...

Terry Blanton (Vortex): http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg07386.html

Brian Josephson (via Rothwell, Vortex) http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg02211.html

Kirk shanahan (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is all fine. I grant you that these examples represent instances where researches have expressed that they feel there is too much pseudoskepticism and neglect of the field, and in some cases specifically named the DoE panel (they probably found their arguments specious). However,

• They are not denying empirical evidence - they are expressing the sentiment that the field is excessively neglected and plagued with pseudoskepticism.
• Were it that they do not generally fund CF research, that would not imply that the CF research they funded was suspect.
• Giving examples of CF research that the DoE funded, far from supporting the notion that the "DOE CF research", undermines it.

Perhaps I could be more clear if I tell you that I see a number of distinctions here that it seems to me you are failing to make in your argument. Kevin Baas 15:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Scientists who write about their work in Misplaced Pages

By some accounts, there are over 3,000 scientific papers on cold fusion, and probably as many authors. This spring, one of them, Dr. Shkedi joined our company. Last month, Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit. How many more will come ? How many of them will want their work to be "properly" presented in our article ?

Four paragraphs. Dr. Shanahan has insisted that it takes 4 paragraphs to present his speculation on cold fusion. No other paper has had so much coverage in our article. Not even the original article of Fleischmann and Pons. Four paragraphs for a paper that was ignored by the DOE panel, 2 years after its publication. Four paragraphs for a paper that only had a mention in passing in Storms book, 5 years later. Four paragraphs missing from a 300-page book, an oversight that Dr. Britz qualified as a minor weakness of the book. And now, according to Dr. Shanahan, our one-page article could not do without these paragraphs ? Who is to believe him ? Who is to accept his presumptuousness ? Who would accept such presumptuousness from any of the 3,000 authors ?

Dr. Shanahan has recently shown his righteous interest in the WP:Reliable policy. Isn't it time that he look at the WP:DUE policy ? Joining the 2 policies together, he will surely realize that a reliable source is needed to demonstrate the extreme notability of his four paragraphs. He has not provided any.

Many public figures have already been tempted to write about themselves on Misplaced Pages. Jim Wales himself contributed to his own article. He was quickly frowned upon. How long do we still need to accept authors writing about their work ? How many of the 3,000 will we accept ? How much time will we spend arguing with them, for so little ?

Scientists are welcome on Misplaced Pages, but they should refrain from writing about their work. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Pcarbonn, you mention that your company recently hired a cold fusion researcher. Does your company have any interest in promoting cold fusion? If there is even a small chance that your company would profit from increased attention to cold fusion, you should disclose it. Olorinish (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

How could I have ever said that ?? Here is what I said about what I had at stakes. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Allow me to rephrase my question. Pcarbonn wrote "By some accounts, there are over 3,000 scientific papers on cold fusion, and probably as many authors. This spring, one of them, Dr. Shkedi joined our company. Last month, Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit.", which implies that his company is using its employees working on company time to investigate cold fusion. Is that true, Pcarbonn? 209.253.120.214 (talk) 16:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Sorry for the confusion. I meant : "Dr. Shkedi joined our company of wikipedia editors. Dr. Shanahan paid us a visit on wikipedia" But if they want to come to Belgium, they are welcome... Feel free to look at the talk archive for Dr. Shkedi's contributions. Or rather, in the mediation talk page, I believe. We had the same issue with him as with Dr. Shanahan. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Pierre, you were among those who welcomed Kirk when he arrived. It's difficult all round when editors are very close to the topics they edit on. But on the other hand you'll agree that my contribution is limited by the fact I have only basic scientific knowledge. We have to strike a balance. Let us continue to work in a reasonably civil manner and leave a note at the conflict of interest noticeboard to get some supportive - I stress supportive - intervention from someone who has experience of such situations. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I do welcome him. I have thanked him for his contributions, eg. on Clarke. I have reacted to his correct request to improve the references in the article. I have not reacted when he incorrectly called me a "fanatic". I have directed him to the relevant guidelines when needed. On his talk page, I have warned him against writing about oneself on wikipedia. Who has done as much as me towards him ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

In response to these ludicrous charges against what I wrote, I'd like to start by noting that no one else seems to have the desire to cover the criticisms. It is difficult to write NON_SCIENCE articles about oneself without introducting undue bias, however in this case, there's no such problem. The original additions I made may have been too wordy (but I think not in reality), but the stripped down version of what we HAD in the article certainly wasn't. It covered the facts very succinctly, probably too much so. Those facts are:*KLS published a critical article in 2002,*there were three propositions made in that publication,*those propositions were...,*SMMF published a 2005 paper deriding the KLS 2002 publication,*KLS responded, challenging the relevance of the SMMF comments,*Storms published a 2006 paper,*KLS responded back to back to all points raised,*Storms' published a 2007 book that ignored the KLS 2006 rebuttal. You can't get much more abbreviated than that and still get the message across. Further, the writing was totally in the third person, and would have been identical if someone else had published the Shanahan papers. (Try substituting 'Pcarbon' in for 'Shanahan' in what was written and see if that isn't true.) The idea that I am somehow self-promoting is unsupportable. Pcarbon has followed the path of many of the cold fusioneers. They seek to detract from my publications (because it requires them to redo their experiments to show no CCS effect) by intially attacking the message, but when finding out there is no valid way to do that, then attack the person (and the tenacity with which he does this clearly makes athe label 'fanatic' applicable). I thought Wiki frowned on this. In any case, in order to get even a minimalist version of the counterclaims into the Wiki article I have had to spend inordinate amount of time in a battel that in the end does doe nothing but label me as a fanatic too, clearly illustrating the old adage about what happens when you fight with pigs. I am done. I have added the primary criticisms and they have been deleted by the fanatics. So be it, science isn't done via the pages of Misplaced Pages. Bye. Kirk shanahan (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC).

Cleaning up the References

Several references need to be fixed or deleted per current standards. I would prefer, as per my own suggestion, that the original writers of the verbage using these references fix it up, but I will do so if nothing is done by early next week., unless good reasons can be put forth in the interim as to why they should not be deleted.

These references are incomplete. (They need to have journal, volume, year, and page)

• Epstein (1994)
• Feder (2005)
• Gozzi (1998)
• Hutchinson (2006)
• Joyce (1990) = page missing, but easily identified as ‘22’. (I will add.)
• Oriani (1990)

Refs. to Proceedings (should be deleted): Key:

• APS – American Physical Society
• ICCF = Int’l Conference on Cold Fusion (1 to 14)
• ICCMS = Int’l Conf. on Condensed Matter Science (the new way to say ‘cold fusion’))
• SMMIB 2005 = 14th International Conference on Surface Modification of Materials by Ion Beams (published as a separate issue of Surf. And Coatings Tech.)
• TFT26 = Transaction of Fusion Technology 26(4T) is the Proc. of ICCF4 (Note: There was a separate publication of Proc of ICCF4 by EPRI that actually contains more papers than the TFT26.)

Refs:

• Bush (1994) – TFT26
• Chubb (2006) – This is an APS session on-line agenda. Does this meet Wiki standards?
• Fleishchmann (2003) - Proc of ICCF10
• Higashiyama (2003) – Proc of ICCF10
• Hubler (2007) – Proc of SMMIB 2005
• Iwamura (2004) – Proc of 11th ICCMS
• Miley (2003) – Proc. of ICCF10
• Mossier-Boss (2007) – Proc. of 2007 APS March Meeting
• Schwinger (1991) – Proc of Yoshio Nishina Centennial Symposium
• Storms(2000) – Proc. of ICCF8
• Yamada (2007) – Proc. of 8th Meet. of Japan CF Soc.

Note: I added Storms and Yamada, and I will delete immediately.

Non-peer-reviewed refs.

• Josephson (2004)
• Kowalski (2004)
• Lewenstein(1994)
• Prow (2001) – a public relations piece, not a newspaper or journal article
• Szpak (2002a and b) – internal SPAWAR reports

I think we have already agreed elsewhere that Prow was to be deleted.

Non-reliable journal refs.

• Mallove (1999) Infinite Energy Magazine
• Krivit (2005,2007) – New Enegy Times
• Mizuno (1996) J. of New Energy
• Storms(1990) – New Energy Times

Biberian(2007) is incorrectly labeled a 'review' in the first section. Later on, it is correctly labeled an article. It is also mentioned using 'cited by' in several references where a primary article is referenced. I feel this is unecessary as the primary ref. is adequate. If we were to put 'cited by' after every referenced article, we would have to do a lot more editing.

Oh and I forgot the ref 124, last in the article. It is to Biberian, but the section is on theory and he doesn't speak to that. I suppose someone got the refs mixed up. perhaps they were going for the Storms 2007 book? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

In that paper, Biberian says: "At this point there is no satisfactory theory explaining the unique characteristics of condensed matter nuclear science". This supports the statement we make in the theory section, although our wording could be improved. Pcarbonn (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I’d also like to note for the record that the Biberian 2007 publication is in a journal devoted to nuclear reactors, and is thus completely out of place. Further the journal only started in 2005 and thus does not really have ‘mainline’ status as of yet (it may attain that in the future, if it survives). It is extremely unlikely that any competent peer review occurred in that setting, because people who could evaluate the claims made are not in that reviewer pool (this is a typical problem with a variety of CF publications). Is this considered a reliable source for Wiki? Kirk shanahan (talk) 16:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with some of your suggestions, please note the following:

• the WP:RS guideline states that "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." This includes other sources than peer-reviewed journals. So, the fact that a source is not peer reviewed does not disqualify it necessarily.
• You state that some papers come from proceedings, while the reference clearly points to a journal. Please clarify your argument for removal.
• We use 'cited by' in accordance to Say where you got it, or to show their notability.

Pcarbonn (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Responding:

• 'with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy' - that's the rub of course. Per the Goodstein reference: "...because the Cold-Fusioners see themselves as a community under siege, there is little internal criticism." That's why, for example, the J. of New Energy is 'suspect'. A journal's reviewer pool usually derives from its author pool, and when JNE has no mainline papers in it, its pool is drawn from the fringe. The condition noted by Goodstein normally obtains in that situation. Ditto for Proceedings, even when published by mainline publications (such as the TFT26 issue), as review of Proceedings papers is almost always (but with exceptions) done by conference participants. That's why on the pecking order of publications, proceedings articles rank second or third. Everything I questioned above has the problem of 'reliable fact-checking and accuracy'. As was noted by Goodstein in 1994, the cold fusioneers were arlready noted for this problem, and instead of trying to overcome this, they continue to publish the bulk of their papers under problem conditions (peer reviewed or not.)
• You may do what I do, go to Google, look up the journal's Web site, and check the volume quoted. I made no mis-statements above.
• In this case, the original references are all that is needed, the 'cited by' is extraneous. Someone citing your work does not make any more or less true. And again, if you want to cite Biberian just because he cites the other authors, you should do so on all references, which will make the reference list untenable. I believe the 'cited by' is to be used when you can't obtain the prime refernce, such as 'Socrates said' (cited by Plato...). Kirk shanahan (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC).

Your questions about sourcing could usefully be taken to the reliable sources noticeboard. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sub-Section Merge

Although this may seem trivial, I just wanted to formally point out a slight inconsistency. There are two headings with essentially the same name in the "Criticism" section. "Precision of Calorimetry" and "Accuracy of Calorimetry" appear to display an obvious redundancy. Respectfully, I will merge these unless otherwise contested; I don't expect a reply anytime soon.

Aaagmnr (talk) 22:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Precision and accuracy are in fact different concepts, but a heading "Precision and accuracy of calorimetry" might be OK. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Strange, I always thought they were synonymous terms. I have implemented your suggestion, and thanks for the clarification.

Aaagmnr (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Distinctly different, but don't feel bad, many scientisits haven't taken the time to clearly distinguish the two, including most of the cold fusioneers. When I made my additions to the criticism section, I left the old section 'precision...' in as I don't think I should be block deleting others' writings. However, the criticisms raised in that section were old, i.e. from the '89 DOE report, and more or less addressed in the years following, and as such really don't offer much in the way of insight for the situation today. (I even added a sentence stating that in my edited version from Sept. 17 I think, but that sentence was deleted.) Which is of course why Pcarbon sees fit to leave them there and relegate the real criticisms to a stub article which will likely be deleted in 6 mo. to a year, just like the last time. Anyway, in the old 'precision' section what was discussed were primarily 'accuracy' issues (which are also know as 'biases' or 'systematic errors'). Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Jed Rothwell on editing Misplaced Pages and Kirk Shanahan on electrolysis product recombination

Just for the sentimental (or the one curious in Misplaced Pages history): 293) Jed Rothwell comments on some accusations - a saved deleted version of this article. No opinions on Cold fusion intended. Said: Rursus (☻) 10:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is the item that I mentioned previously here, where Kowalski (although I guess it's really Rothwell) repeats the Storms tactic of ignoring my third publication, which rebutted all point raised by Storms against my conventional explanation. I note that McKubre is quoted as saying "What I objected to was you raising Shanahan's dead horse " (where 'you' is Dieter Britz). Funny, I am still riding my horse, and its far from dead... I further note that they are STILL equating my proposed cause for the FPHE with the Faradaic efficiency problem, which I clearly stated in my publications is not what I proposed. This does illustrate though that the CF community has designated my idea as dead without ever successfully explaining why. A clear sign of pathological science. The other funny thing is that they are dicussing the page I also worked on back in 2005 (I think it was '05), which has now completely disappeared from Misplaced Pages. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this your third publication: Shanahan, K. (2005) "Comments on 'Thermal behavior of polarized Pd/D electrodes prepared by co-deposition,'" Thermochimica Acta, 428(1-2) p. 207? Is there a courtesy link so that people who are interested can read it? I found http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/ms2004528/ms2004528.pdf -- thank you! IwRnHaA (talk) 06:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Please disregard that question, I see now that your other 2005 article must be your third publication. IwRnHaA (talk) 07:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I have summarized your argument thusly:

The excess heat observed in cold fusion cells may be from the chemical recombination of the products of electrolysis. Cold fusion skeptic Kirk Shanahan suggests that the effect measured by proponent and fellow chemist Edmund Storms can be explained by "a 17% recombination in the cell in the absence of the calibration constant shift ratio impact (which would nominally reduce the amount of recombination required to get the observed apparent excess heat)."

• Shanahan, Kirk (2005b), "Reply to 'Comment on papers by K. Shanahan that propose to explain anomalous heat generated by cold fusion', E. Storms, Thermochim. Acta (2005)", Thermochimica Acta, 441 (2): 210–214.

Please let me know whether or not you agree this is the main point of your argument. I corrected the spelling of "amount" in that quote. I also see that Szpak, Boss, and Fleishmann (2004) have claimed that the measurement of the volume yeilded from recombination of the evolved gasses does not support your suspicion. (Section 2.3 on page 102, citing S. Szpak, P.A. Mosier-Boss, R.D. Boss, J.J. Smith, Fusion Technol. 33 (1998) 38.) Is there any reason to doubt that? Does measurement of the volume yielded from recombination of the evolved gasses say anything about the possibility of the excess heat being from in-cell recombination? IwRnHaA (talk) 08:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate leaving the new guy to flounder about, so I will answer IwRnHaA's questions. Your summary is correct as far as it goes, but the problem is that the chemical recombination explanation of the FPHE is not experimentally proven yet. I had so much difficulty adding facts to the article that I was being very careful about what I wrote. The actual sequence is that I 'reverse engineered' some data that Storms used to 'prove' cold fusion, and found that a calibation constant shift could easily explain it. That is nothing but mathematics and has never been challenged. Next, I did some more math to show that a shift could occur from a heat redistribution in a cell/calorimeter. That also is just math and has never been challenged. Then, I _speculated_ that such a redistribution could arise due to H2+O2 recombination moving from the gas space of the cell to the electrode surface, which was implied by an Szpak, et al infrared video recording of an 'active' electrode. (All of this was published in my 2002 publication.) That hypothesis was attacked twice in the literature, once by Szpak and Fleischmann and coworkers, and once by Storms. I responded to both (Szpak in 2005, Storms in 2006), and in both pointed out that their complaints were ill-founded. The Szpak complaint focused on the idea that 'recombination' had been dealt with (see the Shkedi-Jones issue which used to be in the main article and now is in the stub), but that issue involves _electrochemical_ recombination, i.e. H2+O2 occurring via the power source that runs the electrolysis. It's a parasitic reaction which can impact your results if you use low current. However, the recombination I was talking about is the same as that which occurs at the recombination catalyst in closed F&P cell, i.e. _non-electrochemical recombination_. The CFers seem to have great difficulty understanding this. So, if I am correct in my speculation, then the CCS is likely caused by chemical recombination, but that is unproven speculation at this point in time. What is proven is that a CCS _can_ explain apparent excess heat signals in a F&P-type cell. Of course, excess heat represents the largest block of 'evidence' for nuclear cold fusion, so providing a conventional, non-nuclear explanation is quite a blow to those committed to the nuclear explanation. They respond by 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' by completely rejecting all my results. However, that is not good, as whether or not my speculative mechanism is proven true. the CCS mechanism can explain at least some of the excess heat results, and may wexplain all. One has to check their results against the CCS proposal to eliminate it, which is what has never been done to date.

My abbreviated summary would thus be: "It was shown that a calibration constant shift has the potential to explain apparent excess heat signals, and that such a shift can occur, at least in one way, by a redistribution of heat in a F&P cell. It was further speculated that such a redistribution would occur if recombination at the electrode became active, which is implied by available data, but is as of yet not experimentally proven." That would maintain the certainties as predominant and point out that experimentation is required to prove the speculation.

I've noticed you are using my 'papers' from the OSTI database. Be aware that these are the manuscript versions that were submitteed to journals for the peer review process. There usually are minor changes made due to that process. It would be best to get the real papers to be completely sure, but in general, the net changes I made were only cosmetic. No facts/conclusions were changed due to peer review. The manuscript version of my first paper can be found on the LENR-CANR website as well.

And finally, I won't be doing any more editing of the article, even though it badly needs it, as every attempt to do so is reverted by Pcarbon. Kirk shanahan (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Shanahan 2005b

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