Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:54, 29 October 2008

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84Auto-archiving period: 5 days

Template:Community article probation

	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 18, 2004.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 5, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 19, 2008 Featured article review Kept Current status: Featured article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. U.S. Congress High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject U.S. Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United States Congress on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.U.S. CongressWikipedia:WikiProject U.S. CongressTemplate:WikiProject U.S. CongressU.S. Congress High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is about one (or many) person(s). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Illinois Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illinois, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illinois on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllinoisWikipedia:WikiProject IllinoisTemplate:WikiProject IllinoisWikiProject Illinois Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Hawaii Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hawaii, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hawaii on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HawaiiWikipedia:WikiProject HawaiiTemplate:WikiProject HawaiiHawaii Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Spoken Misplaced Pages This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Misplaced Pages Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Chicago Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WikiProject Columbia UniversityPlease add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. African diaspora Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. United States: Presidential elections Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections. Template:WPCD-People

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Template:Pbneutral

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jose Antonio Vargas (2007-09-17). "On Misplaced Pages, Debating 2008 Hopefuls' Every Facet". The Washington Post. Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR. Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR. Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic. Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One. Tom Foreman (2008-04-12). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN. John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review. Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger. Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "one of two pieces aired". WCBS Newsradio 880.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84Auto-archiving period: 5 days

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84

This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Back round info.

You, reader should vote for Barack Obama. He is in his forty’s so he wouldn’t die of age. He has two kids so not to many kids or pets in the White house. Another fact is six foot two inches. Also in the kitchen he loves to make chili. That is just some facts about Barack Obama.

Jermy

Why are changes like adding "mohammad" to his name at the top of the article keep making it in? Why can people edit the main page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.2.175 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone who is able to needs to remove the vandalism from the section "Early Life and Career" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlizard19 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

One of the links under footnote 20 leads to a downloader virus my antivirus blocked. I dunno how to remove it (sorry...I'm inexperienced at this) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.76.126 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Will someone with the correct authorisation please remove the "he's half monkey" quote from the bottom of paragraph one.

Overlinking

You know I've got a style question. Does it look to you like there seems to be an over abundance of inter-wikilinks within the article? It seems as if people have gone link happy and linked every word that might be misunderstood. Do you think that maybe we could go through and clean out some of the wikilinks that are unnecessary (I.E. easily understood?) Brothejr (talk) 00:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Edit: This is about the article's style not about Barack Obama or any the election controversies. Brothejr (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone added the "linkspam" today. I did not roll it back, but would quite agree if someone else were to remove all the links to common noun. LotLE×talk 04:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got the majority of the "linkspam" that had been added last night. Brothejr (talk) 10:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Brothejr, your thread-opening post is hilarious - I wonder how many people checked your links. Thanks for the laugh - much needed around these pages these days... Tvoz/talk 00:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering if people would get some of the links. Sometimes it is nice to deal with something to do with style and not the never ending inserts of fringe theories and conspiracies! Brothejr (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

<snark>Oh yeah? Well, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim who pals around with terrorists, and is simultaneously a Christian extremist and the messiah! Plus, he's a Communist, a Socialist, and a follower of Saul Alinsky! Did you know he was born in Kenya? Or maybe somewhere in the Middle East, because he's Arab, not African American. And remember, he wants to steal the election by registering Mickey Mouse to vote! Aren't you scared yet? Well... Why the heck not?!?</snark> --GoodDamon 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. I try not to follow politics too much (no stomach for it). Your summary is a great hoot. -- Suntag ☼ 04:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

← You betcha. Tvoz/talk 07:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jr. or II?

Usually when a son has his father's name, the son's name ends with Jr. not II. as Barack's father was also named Barack Hussein Obama, and he has no other siblings named Barack Hussein Obama, and he's not named after an ancestor other than his father. the term appended to his name should be Jr. not II.

From: http://genealogy.about.com/b/2006/06/19/jr-or-ii.htm

"In my experience, the use of the term II generally indicates a son who has been named after a family member other than their father, such as a grandfather or an uncle. It is also sometimes used to identify the second male in a line of three with that name, although in that case Junior is usually the preferred term. As to whether it is required or not, I would tend to believe that it isn't. Terms such as Junior, II, III, etc. came into use to distinguish between two family members with the same name, generally implying that these family members are all still living. I believe in the case of little Jacob Miles Burnum, since the ancestor in question is five generations back in the family tree, it is really a matter of personal preference - the II being a formal way to indicate that there was a first, but not required since the great, great grandfather is long deceased. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrVonMalfoy (talk • contribs) 04:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Please review the FAQ at the top of this page. It's covered. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 05:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The FAQ does not address this. If the choice of "II" over "Jr." is explained there or anywhere else, I'd appreciate it if you'd link to it here -- it does seem like an odd choice and I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 07:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Finding no answers here, I investigated the matter, myself. Apparently "II" is the form used on Obama's birth certificate. I went ahead and added this information to the article's FAQ. --74.183.166.57 (talk) 23:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, if anybody can understand the Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. article. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I meant to get around to that. It ties in a bit with the conspiracy theories, but more so with the section in MOS about using people's complete formal legal name in bold the first time it appears (which is why we use "Hussein" despite some attempts to portray that as a negative thing), and from there on out the name by which they are most commonly known (hence, Barack Obama). Wikidemon (talk) 23:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" sounds better than "won" ?

What does snag even mean? Grsz 03:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is far too colloquial/slangy for a featured article. Half the world won't know what it means here. ~ priyanath  03:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

which is why it has already been reverted--EmperorofBlackPeopleEverywhere (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Snagged" is another word for "grab" or "capture". Obama "snagged" the primaries, (Obama won/captured/grabbed the primaries). I changed it because I think it's more clear. I think it is more appealing and not as plain as won. I think it makes the article more interesting. Smuckers 03:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But being so unclear, it does just the opposite. In my opinion, it also makes the victories seem illegitimate. Grsz 04:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Smuckers, but no. Rlogan made a one hundred percent correct revert - "snagged" is neither clearer nor encyclopedic. I find it hard to believe we actually have to talk about this, but just in case anyone claims consensus in favor of it, here's another voice against. It is not common usage, even informally, to say that someone snagged an election - in fact according to Merriam-Webster it means "to catch or obtain usually by quick action or good fortune" which would be like snagging tickets to a Yankees game or snagging a good parking space. Not an election. And I agree with Grsz that it devalues the victories. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Snagged devalues the efforts that went into the success. -- Suntag ☼ 04:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Offensive lines

Would someone please delete the offensive three lines that were inserted under the second heading in this article.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So not appropriate, respectful or even particularly civilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.75.236 (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What lines are you referring to specifically?--JayJasper (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The offensive remarks were self-reverted and are now gone.--JayJasper (talk) 15:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Derogatory remarks entered in last edit. Please remove.

Rjwildcat (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Barbara Johnson

The vandal self-reverted. They are gone. Please refresh the page. --GoodDamon 15:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Next time, please check the history, compare versions, then delete whatever vandalism was made. You don't really need to post a comment about vandalism; on a page like this, someone will see it within minutes and change it. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Erase the horrible comments throughout this document

Who ever is the CEO or person in charge of WIKIPEDIA need to correct and block this article from futer abuse. **** —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, what comments are you referring to? The article currently has semi-protected status, and what vandalism does occur is usually deleted almost instantly.--JayJasper (talk) 16:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are correct, it is now erased. There were some horrible things under the early life section. Thank you, God Bless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I too, get frustrated with the vandalism of this article. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I read in the first part the sentence "he's half-monkey". Doesn't this qualify as vandalism? Fred 87.14.193.44 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Why is there no mention of the lawsuit filed against Barack Obama by Philip J. Berg which he alleges that Barack Hussein Obama is ineligible to run for President? This sounds like a very serious and important lawsuit to not be mentioned on Misplaced Pages. It also alleges that there is no records of Barack being born in Hawaii, and that his own family admits he was born outside the USA rendering him a non-US born citizen, incapable of U.S presidency. 71.112.196.141 (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Because it's a obscure theory that no normal person seriously believes. Grsz 01:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz, the issue isn't about what "normal" people believe. This is a FACT based information source. If 90% believed that President Bush was a space man from mars, and that the whitehouse was his ufo, would it then be TRUE just because 90% of the world believed it? Let me make this clear, I am NOT the same guy that made the original post here, but I myself have NEVER seen proof that he was born in the U.S., so this could be a VERY important thing. These articles need to be fair and balanced! Now I understand that most of the people around here are Liberal Democrats, but myself and people like myself are neither Republican nor Democrat and we would like to have ALL of the information on the subject, not just some of the information. TheСyndicate 19:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.188.221 (talk)

Closing this discussion per WP:FRINGE and WP:BLP. --Bobblehead 02:26, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Redirects from "Hussein Obama".

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

As a test, I just typed in "Hussein Obama" and it came here. This should be changed to "file not found" page or something. Whomever made this redirect is just trying to do a political GOP hit job on Senator Obama. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

LOL, this claim of "GOP hit job" coming from a computer registered to a firewall protected server in Washington DC? Now thats laughable. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Says the GOP-defending IP coming from Texas. Ironic. Grsz 03:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Texas? Ummm...you mean Missouri right? But yes, I admit I'm fond of capitalism, 2nd amendment rights, the right to keep the money I earn, smaller government, and conservative values in general and proudly admit it :) 70.250.214.209 (talk) 03:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

This isn't going anywhere productive. The issue was addressed. Grsz 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: A request of deletion discussion was made a few months ago, archived here, regarding this redirect. The result of that debate was Redirect to Barack Obama. Therefore, if you want it deleted, you need to post another request on WP:RFD. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Fringe citizenship/birth/lawsuit discussions

Kids Pick the President?

Why is it not mentioned about Barrack Obama's recent victory on Nickelodeon's Kids Pick the President?

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

http://realitytvworld.com/news/barack-obama-wins-nickelodeon-kids-pick-president-poll-1015365.php

There's a source. It may seem trivial, but I do think that the opinion of EVERYONE is important in defining a person, especially an elected official.

72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, kids' opinions may not be adequately represented on Misplaced Pages. The Nickelodeon program may be worth its own article, but as a matter of WP:WEIGHT it's a fairly minor ingredient in the overall election pie. There are probably articles in every state and every country, for example, on how people in that location feel about the election, and we just don't have room to include all of the opinions. In fact, we have very little coverage of anybody's opinion. Most of that goes into the election articles, under polling.Wikidemon (talk) 15:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I don't usually do much to articles, just grammatical things I notice when I'm reading through. Figured this might be important since kids typically vote the way their parents do and this poll has been right 80% of the time.72.65.91.58 (talk) 15:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning it. I just created a new article, Kids Pick the President. I hope you like it. It could use some filling out, links, categories, and so on. It's interesting to see there are at least two other major nationwide children's votes this year. Too bad, but I still don't think kids opinions are relevant enough to be covered in this article. Maybe that will change if Nick has its way. Wikidemon (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Of absolutely zero significance to Misplaced Pages: Every time I scroll by this heading, my brain substitutes the shortened "Kick the President" for the section title (and side article). Perhaps my very selective dyslexia is politically motivated :-). LotLE×talk 21:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this could be a new tradition: first kids-pick-the-president then kids-kick-the-president. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Conservapedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I know they are irrelevant, but if you wish to see some of the nonsense that the rightwingers are spewing out, have a look at Conservapadia.com's article on Obama. It's quite amusing. Also, should you feel inclined to write on their page, remember, ad hominem is all that matters to those people (evidentially). Aaberg (talk) 15:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead image change

Yet again. I really don't care which one is used, but I see no discussion of the change here. That makes me skeptical about it, even fairly opposed. We've been through such attempted changes way too many times, with consensus for a different image never being reached. LotLE×talk 18:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to change the lead picture to something more respectable. When logged in it shows his United States Congress picture, but when logged out, it shows him smoking a cigarette. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.254.7 (talk) 00:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

strange. Did you try clearing the cache?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism. Two trolls who added the image blocked, image deleted. You might need to purge your cache to get rid of the old image. --barneca (talk) 00:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Preparation of the election

Wouldn't it be useful to start to prepare a page in a specific area that could be put on line rapidly once he is elected ? Hektor (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, because there's no guarantee he will be. Please do not use this talk page for campaigning against or for Barack Obama. This is his biography, and any presumption that he will be elected President is premature. --GoodDamon 20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A) I am French, I live in France, so I have nothing at stake in this election. B) If you want that can be done for both (main) candidates. Except if you think a third party guy can be elected, I think there would be no harm in this. Hektor (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Therefore I reformulate my proposal : couldn't we create Barack Obama/President, and John McCain/President and we just put the winning page on line once the result is known ? That would allow an expedited update process and avoid multiple simultaneous small mods at the same moment. Hektor (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good idea to create those articles in Misplaced Pages article space. However, if you want to start work on article(s) in your User space, and invite other editors to collaborate with you there, that would be fine. Might I suggest User:Hektor/President Barack Obama and User:Hektor/President John McCain? Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• Reacting to news is a purpose of wikinews, not Misplaced Pages. If Obama is elected president, we have 8 4 years in which to update the articles. There's no rush. In the mean time, you might want to consider posting a note at Misplaced Pages:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates if he is elected. -- Suntag ☼ 04:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• This is a very nice principle statement. Unfortunately it will not withstand the test of reality. As soon as the election is announced hundreds of edits in any direction will be made. I still think that it would be much preferable to make a single well prepared edit and then lock the article for a few days. Hektor (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If Obama is elected

We should not describe him as president-elect, until after the Electoral College votes in mid-December. In the meantime presumptive president-elect would do. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Follow the terminology used by the mainstream media, such as the Associated Press and the New York Times. They will probably follow the practice of many decades past and call the person with the majority of presumptive electoral votes the "president elect," as soon as the a candidate appears to have the states with a majority of electoral vots in his column and the loser has conceded. See Eisenhower called President-elect by the New York Times November 8, 1952, Roosevelt called "president-elect" in November 1932, Hoover called "president -elect" November 10, 1928, Wilson called "president-elect" Nov. 19, 1912 , Taft called "president-elect" Nov 22, 1908 , Grover Cleveland called "president elect" November 20, 1892, , Garfield called "president elect" Nov 24, 1880 , Grant called the "president elect Nov. 17, 1868 , Buchanan called by the term Nov. 6, 1856, etc. Edison (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the legwork, Edison - I was going to make the same point. We're getting ahead of ourselves, but I agree it's putting way too fine a point on it to insist on "presumptive" president-elect - common practice is to use "president-elect" once the victor is called. 2000 was an anomaly. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, remember the United States presidential election, 1948!!! Somehow I think history may be about to repeat itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.198 (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Deweytruman12.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.198 (talk) 02:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

C-Obamamide?

The guy is everywhere. -- Suntag ☼ 20:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No mention of Ayers controversy? No mention of extreme positions on Abortion and Gun Control?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing as usual. See FAQ, see incredible amounts of talk page history, blah blah blah. Let us know when a preponderance of reliable sources mention Ayers without a) debunking the "controversy" or b) simply reporting on the existence of the campaign talking point. Also be sure to let us know when the campaign talking point has a significant impact on Obama's life, because according to the available reliable sources, Ayers himself never did. --GoodDamon 04:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How can you possibly not mention this controversy? The man's name never even appears in this article. While it's only now getting heavy attention, it's been a simmering issue for over six months.

Obama's positions on both are at the far left end of the spectrum, along with many of his other positions. Why are these not given any attention? On gun control, Obama has voted against the right of self-defense, as well as in favor of numerous extreme measures restricting ownership, sale, and purchase. On abortion, Obama has voted in favor of multiple fringe positions such as allowing the direct termination of live-born abortions and up-to-full-term abortion.

So much for balanced, unbiased attention.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.219.28 (talk)

This article is the biography of Barack Obama. The place to document election talking points is United States presidential election, 2008. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 01:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "election talking point" towards every valid concern. The fact that he's an pro-abortionist and gun control advocate isn't campaign talking points...it's just fact from his own words and positions. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 01:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I love how you spew "valid concern" towards every election talking point.

That approach doesn't get us very far, does it? In fact, the unproductiveness of such confrontational dicussions is one of the reasons why the community has put this article under article probation. In a nutshell, we are all instructed:-

• Do not edit-war;
• Interact civilly with other editors;
• Avoid making repeated comments unrelated to bettering the article;
• Avoid making repeated comments about the subject of the article;
• Avoid repeatedly discussing other editors, discuss the article instead;
• Not much leeway in pages under probation, so basically be a model Wikipedian;
• We actually know when we cross the line; we are all intelligent people;
• Don't get worked up when you get subjected to remedies such as a temporary block or ban. Take a break and come back refreshed.

Note that these conditions are in addition to normal Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. And with those in mind, I'm going to ask you, nicely and politely, whether you have reliable sources discussing these questions. If not, the material cannot be included in wikipedia. If you do have some sources, the question is whether those sources treat these as important aspects of the election, or of Obama's life. Based on that, we can decide whether it's best to document what the sources say in this article, or in the election article. And we'll decide in a civil discussion, aimed at building a consensus. Seem reasonable? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• See Bill Ayers presidential election controversy and Political positions of Barack Obama. -- Suntag ☼ 04:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem with Ayers

What I think the common complaint is about the Ayers controversy article is that it is practically orphaned. The only mainspace article in which a link to it can be found is Bill Ayers; there are no links from Barack Obama articles or 2008 Election articles which lead there. To clarify, I certainly don't think the controversy deserves mention in Obama's biography, any more than the cost of Palin's wardrobe would belong on her own page, but there should probably be a subarticle or template to which this article is linked. Any thoughts? »S0CO 06:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I would link it somewhere on the United States presidential election, 2008 page. It astonishes me that this hasn't yet been brought up there yet. If there's one article the manufacture of controversy related to Bill Ayers belongs, it's there. --GoodDamon 07:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and congratulations on posting the first thoughtful, well-reasoned question on the subject I've seen here! --GoodDamon 07:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

For the tinfoil hat crowd

The judge threw out your lawsuit re: Obama's place of birth ("ridiculous", "patently false"), so you can move on to another talking point. ~ priyanath  16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• While you're right on the facts, perhaps the mode of delivery is less than ideal. Nothing's accomplished by mockery. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. Even considering the plaintiff's background (lawsuits against Bush and Cheney for the murder of 2,800 people on 9/11), and the nonstop vandalism here, my delivery was unwarranted. ~ priyanath  16:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand the frustration. Dealing with conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theorists) can be maddening. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Normal modes of communication are lost on conspiracy theorists, or they would not be conspiracy theorists. We haven't found a good way to deal with them other than persistence, reverts, and if necessary, blocks. Once in a blue moon someone repetitively posing fringe material responds to the facts or to Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines. More likely they cry censorship and start making repetitive personal attacks on people. Who knows, taunting might work. Wikidemon (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• I've dealt with conspiracy theorists a lot, both online and off. Taunting never works. It just seems to offer them justificatiib for their belief that they are persecuted. _D.D.J.Jameson 16:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I was mostly joking about that one. Nothing direct seems to work though. One just ushers them on to ranting somewhere else.Wikidemon (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• I know what you mean. I've found -- at least online -- that the same people turn up believing the same fringe things across the various areas most deeply affected by conspiracy theorists. _D.D.J.Jameson 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I found the section header for this discussion to be small-minded and offensive. Tinfoil hats have been shown repeatedly to protect the wearer from all sorts of government monitoring technologies, not to mention dangerous gamma radiation from space. Wearing a tinfoil hat is a legitimate lifestyle choice, and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously a tool of the NSA spreading anti-tinfoil propaganda in a transparent attempt to bolster government mind control efforts. Misplaced Pages has a responsibility to tell the world about the risks that people incur by forgoing tinfoil hats. It may not be verifiable, but IT IS THE TRUTH! --Jaysweet (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama wears a tinfoil hat. I have an email that proves it. Where's the discussion about this?--210.248.139.35 (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

What's well known is that for the sine qua non safeguard of one's thoughts from government snoops one should wear a hat providing at the very least a waver-thin shield of lead.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 06:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Magna Cum Laude revisited

Jodi Kantor, the New York Times reporter who referenced his magna cum laude status, has stated that she read it on a curriculum vitae page at the University of Chicago which has since been taken down. She suggested that the Harvard Law School be contacted directly -- and they cannot verify it for privacy reasons.

So we have no existing corroborating document. So let's keep it off until we can actually verify that he did in fact graduate magna cum laude. The campaign refuses to release his transcripts so it's impossible to substantiate this undocumented claim.

Lordvolton (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no need. What you're describing would be original research on our part. When a source as reliable as a New York Times report makes a statement of fact, it's not our job to second-guess it. I'm sorry, but this has been gone over time and time again. The major newspapers all say he graduated magna cum laude? Then we say it. What's key here is verifiability, and we have definitely achieved that. --GoodDamon 04:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There are countless references that support the magna cum laude statement, including the Harvard Crimson which is cited at the end of that sentence. I've added two very reliable ones - The Guardian newspaper and Obama's article (signed) from Encyclopeda Britannica. ~ priyanath  04:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Lordvolton should note that WP:V requires that things be attributed to reliable sources such as have been cited for the magna cum laude, not that transcripts be examined by Misplaced Pages editors to verify it. Edison (talk) 04:08, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This pops up often enough that I'm beginning to think we need an entry on the FAQ for it as well. Look folks... We don't need to go in and make sure the freakin' New York Times is accurate in any statements of fact they make. There's a reason WP:RS specifically makes a clear delineation between primary and secondary sources, and it sure doesn't prefer primary ones. --GoodDamon 04:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, GoodDamon is correct pointing out that it is well sourced by reliable RS sources that Obama did in fact achieve magna cum laude. This does need to be included into the FAQ so we can all move on to more up-to-date fringe theories. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

There's an archived discussion about this at Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive 36#magna cum laude (Lordvolton was the only one arguing about it). An addition to the FAQ would help, but is there anyone beside Lordvolton pushing this particular POV? ~ priyanath  04:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, not that I remember. Most of Lordvolton's argument the last time he brought it up was based less on the magna cum laude theory then the fact that Obama's campaign has not released Obama's transcript like Lorbvolton would like. I think he is hoping that there is something deep and dark hidden in the transcript that we all should know about and that the campaign is hiding. (Sound familiar to other theories?) Brothejr (talk) 12:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

First African-American nominated?

Early life and career

The following sentences about Obama's father given the impression that his father saw him only once from 1963 through 1982: "They separated when he was two years old and later divorced. Obama's father returned to Kenya and saw his son only once more before dying in an automobile accident in 1982."

Is this really true? Obama Sr.'s wikipedia page has a picture of him with Obama taken in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jk469 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note the "once more" and note that its placement in the sentence is after mention that Senior returned to Kenya. This implies that from the time Senior returned to Kenya in 1963, until his death in 1982, Obama only saw his father once. The one time Senior saw Obama was when Senior visited Obama in Hawai'i in 1971. --Bobblehead 21:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Colin Powell's endorsement for Barack Obama

Since it's a part of Barack's history could someone please add to the wiki article the Colin Powell endorsement for Barack Obama?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This is Barack Obama's biography. As such, individual endorsements are completely beyond the scope of the article. There are so many, in fact, that a separate article exists specifically for this purpose. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Can we please add a link to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 in the Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the election is only one component of Obama's life, it seems that a direct link would probably be undue weight; however, the article does link to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, which then links to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. Don't forget that this article is a gateway to a whole slew of child articles (per summary style) which (in many cases) have child articles themselves, as in this case. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that one single link places undue weight. I for one would have liked to have known of this List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 wiki page. Could you please reconsider placing one single link in this Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is not about Obama's campaign, which means it does not make sense for it to link directly to Obama's campaign endorsements. It is enough that they share a common article (Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008) and a common category (Category:Barack Obama). In fact, this is precisely what categories are for, is it not? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

How can you say that when this article contains the history of Barack Obama? His presidential campaign is part of his history. IMO the endorsements should be directly in this wiki article. So to say the least there should be a link to the Barack endorsements. Can we please take a vote here? It is possible this blocked action is part of a biased opinion of Barack Obama. Thanks. --PaulLowrance (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got to side with Scjessey, here. Anyone who wants to read details about the campaign can follow the link to the campaign article. Then, if they want specifics on the list of endorsements, they can follow a link from there to the endorsements. This is a fairly typical scenario in large families of interconnected articles such as the ones on Barack Obama. Read the guidelines for summary style for details on why that sort of organization ends up being used for complex, multi-layered topics. --GoodDamon 15:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's silly to not place one single link that is regarding his history. I've been a system admin to over a dozen websites and a site owner since 1997 and it is common practice to place all relevant links on the page. The idea that this link will over weight the page is illogical.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand why you'd want to include this material here - after all, it's good material, it's reliably sourced, and it's part of the campaign, which is part of his life. I appreciate that you feel that the material you want to add is important, otherwise you wouldn't be bringing it to the table. But we can't include everyone's contribution at the top level. This material can be covered in depth at the endorsements article, and depending on editor consensus as to relative importance with other events in the presidential campaign (see Misplaced Pages:Due weight), it could also be mentioned in the (campaign article. But unless we start hearing that Powell's endorsement has made an impact on Obama's life - rather than his campaign - it is unlikely to get a mention here. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 15:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I can understand wanting to prioritize information, and hence the good reason for creating a separate endorsement page, but in this case we're talking about a single link, and one that is part of his history. Good web page design is one that includes good linking. The concept of making people read articles after articles just to get to a certain related link should be discouraged. Why not add an Internal Link section in this wiki article. I believe you acknowledged this is part of Barack's history, and hence a good reason to at least include such a link.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(Resetting indent) Ahh, I think I see the issue. It isn't a good idea to treat Misplaced Pages like a regular website, due to the sheer number and inter-relational nature of article topics. Misplaced Pages's category system is designed as an answer to that problem. Look at the bottom of the main article page, and you'll find a box that says "Categories." In that box, there's a link to Category:Barack Obama. Every single article in that category is listed there, including the list of endorsements. Anyone who wants to see, at a glance, every article related directly to Barack Obama can find it there. --GoodDamon 16:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Toward the bottom of the wiki article is the "Categories:", which is probably what you're referring to. The "Barack Obama" category is the seventh link. The previous 6 links are unrelated to Barack Obama, which are "Featured articles," "Future election candidates," "Spoken articles," "1961 births," "Living people." None of the categories are about Barack. How about moving the "Barack Obama" category link to the first category link? It should go without saying that the odds of someone finding the seventh "Barack Obama" category link and then sifting through that entire page to find his endorsement history page is slim and none. Since this is part of Barack's history I just think it's far more important and relevant. As it stands there's next to no chance of someone finding the endorsement history wiki page.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's a good point, but I'm not sure how to reorganize the categories. My wiki-fu is strong, but not that strong. It would make sense if the first category was the one named after him. Does anyone know how that's done, or even if it's possible? --GoodDamon 17:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Is it perhaps a template? It's just a minor change. I'm certain someone knows how to do it.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I was able to make the change. :-) Modocc (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Very nice! How were you able to do it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Per all the other experienced editors, I agree that a link to the Powell endorsement does not belong in this top level biography. An encyclopedia isn't a link farm. Less strongly (but still fairly strongly), I also feel that the general "endorsements" page also should not have a link on this main bio. The campaign article is, and should be, linked to from here; that article is the one that should logically mention the endorsements list. Conceivably, if the Powell endorsement is especially important (versus all the other endorsements), it might merit very brief mention directly in the campaign article (with details fleshed out in the endorsements article). Discuss that issue on the campaign article, definitely none of it should be on main bio. LotLE×talk 17:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone suggested to possibly adding a short statement in the wiki article to Colin Powell's endorsement, an important event in Barack's life. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team." I seriously doubt that Obama plays basketball is more important than the Colin Powell's endorsement.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Project Vote and ACORN

According to the Project Vote page, its association with ACORN started in 1994. Obama worked there in 1992. PhGustaf (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

No serious editors are asking for ACORN stuff in here, are they?LedRush (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ol' 300wack just placed a reference and had it reverted; I'm just preempting a bit. PhGustaf (talk) 15:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense, then. 300wackerdrive is a single-purpose account pushing to turn the ACORN article into an attack page and tie Barack Obama to it. He just came back from a block for edit-warring there. --GoodDamon 15:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

According to ACORN, they were involved in Barack Obama's 1992 registration drive and Obama has been teaching an annual leadership seminar for ACORN ever since. 300wackerdrive (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The link you've provided says march 2004, not 1992. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 17:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO the ACORN link is too weak to be part of the Barack main wiki page. I can't even get a single small link to Barack's endorsement history wiki page. ACORN has been involved with a lot of politicians, but that's nothing new or bad. The United States worked closely with Saddam Heusein, but that does not make the United States evil. One can find weak links to every politician. Besides, so far there's no evidence that ACORN has done anything wrong.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What you're seeing is the result of summary style. There's only so much room in this article, and there are literally books-worth of information out there, so we have to be extremely frugal with space. --GoodDamon 17:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

ACORN is not a relevant enough part of Barack Obama's life to be included in a summary style bio. Specific election year talking points typically have a very short life cycle, and little or no lasting significance to the subject's life. ~ priyanath  18:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that 300wackerdrive has been blocked from editing for edit warring. Hopefully there will now be a short reduction in disruptive editing hereabouts. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Social Security Blurp

I added a small detail of Senator Obama's proposed social security plan. It wasn't covered in the article, and obviously Social Security is a notable point to include into his political position subsection. Let me know what you think. Digital 20:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It is, but frankly your edit looked like a bit of coat-racking, and you sourced it to an editorial, which is a no-no for statements of fact. --GoodDamon 20:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I changed the source and used Money News instead, and it was reverted again. How is this coatrack or undue weight? Some people want it to be a Welfare like service, while some want private accounts. There's no way everyone will agree, so who cares? Digital 20:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

NewsMax isn't a reliable source. Find a real news source that characterizes Obama's Social Security position as "wealth redistribution." Better yet, find several to establish weight. And please, no more tabloids. --GoodDamon 20:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's still just presenting an opinion, in this case from a Republican talking point man, former White House economic advisor Larry Lindsey. And any piece presenting that 'view' will just be an opinion piece. It also violates WP:UNDUE for a bio about the life of Barack Obama. ~ priyanath  20:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok guys, check out the latest revision. I'm actually pretty proud of it because it's unbiased and actually reads well, and helps improve the article. Feedback? Digital 20:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I reverted because it's not relevant enough for this article, i.e. WP:UNDUE. Go to the 2008 campaign article. ~ priyanath  20:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also, Gooddamon, it's MoneyNews, which is a very reliable source when it concerns anything economy/money. Digital 20:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, how is someone supposed to improve the article when an edit is made, criticism is brought, the edit is made to reflect the criticism, so the edit is modified some more, and finally when all criticism is met someone simply says "this is the wrong place". Do you guys know my wife by any chance? Digital 20:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? When it's entirely opinion and not the politician's position, for one. Your edit is at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest. Moneynews isn't 'suggesting' anything. Republican talking point man Lindsay is the one with the opinion (again, not news). Since when are republican talking points, stated by said republicans, relevant for a bio on Obama? ~ priyanath  20:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your issue with adding this here - it's called 'consensus'. Wives also have consensus, at all times, so that's just coincidence :-). ~ priyanath  20:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

lol, nice "wives have consensus at all times" rebuttal. That's the truth! Anyways, here are some more sources supporting my addition to the article. I would like it do be a fair summary, because I really think his position on Social Security should have a small mention (thats a "key" issue, just like Iraq and the economy). Anyways, do what you will...honey :)

• http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10756391
• http://newsblaze.com/story/20081025080827zzzz.nb/topstory.html
• http://basseq.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/24/2036730-obama-wants-social-security-to-be-a-welfare-plan?commentId=3697431
• http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.economic,pubID.28751/pub_detail.asp
• http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_welfare.html

Digital 20:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any objections in principle, provided it's well sourced that these are common opinions about his social security proposals, and also that the sources establish that this is an important issue for him and the voters to meet due weight (I have not actually reviewed them for that, but it seems plausible). There is room in the article for summarizing a handful of key issues and positions, although I agree that the main place for this is in a child article. I would think it goes in "political positions of", not the campaign article. Wikidemon (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Right now, the "Political positions" section of this article is a factual recounting of Obama's positions - not partisan analysis of those positions. If his position on social security can be added to the article—not analysis of, not Lindsay's opinion on social security, or any other politico, left or right—then it might work. ~ priyanath  21:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Assassination plot

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The recent assassination attempt all over the news right now is certainly interesting, but I don't think it relates to Obama's BLP article. It's more of a news event than a biographically significant event, since the attempt failed. On the other hand, it is most certainly notable. So... do we do anything with it? --GoodDamon 23:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The attempt never even started. This is just some rednecks getting pissed off. We knew this would happen. Move on. GlassCobra 23:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Not biographically significant - something for Wikinews, if anywhere. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Question withdrawn. --GoodDamon 23:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Barack Hussein Obama (please edit)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The middle name given for Obama on his Wiki page is both false and offensive. Will an established user please correct the page? Lacrosseizmygame (talk) 04:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, that is actually his middle name. See the certified copy of his birth certificate here. Some Republicans have emphasized Obama's middle name in rallies as part of an attempt to make him seem "foreign" and "other", which has caused some people to react strongly when his middle name is used; but that is his name. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Missing: Barack baptized at Trinity United Church of Christ

Hi,

It was ~ a month ago the Barack Obama wiki article mentioned that Barack Obama was baptized at the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988. What happened to the text? I can't even find it in the history. I know it's possible to delete history, but without a trace? Was it an admin or inside hack job, a possible attack on Barack's campaign? Anyhow, could someone please reinsert it? I have found that a good percentage of people falsely believe Barack is a muslim, so IMO this information is important.--PaulLowrance (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It was probably deleted by Jeremiah Wright. I've heard he sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment while editing Misplaced Pages. But yes, I do think it's important to mention that Jeremiah Wright baptized Obama. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in) Digital 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, it shouldn't matter where (or even whether) Obama was baptized, given that we are supposed to be a secular nation. That being said, I am puzzled as to why the information is not in the article. If you can locate a reliable source, I see no reason why it cannot be added to the last paragraph of the "Family and personal life" section. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It was this very wiki article that I learned of Barack being baptized in 1988, but it appears to have been deleted even from the history. If we find the sources then is anyone going to add it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I found a quote that used to be in this wiki article, but was deleted, interestingly enough. It is not the 1988 reference that I saw last month, but at least it makes reference to his 1988 baptism. Quote, >>>Obama writes: "It was because of these newfound understandings—that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved—that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized."<<< Again, this was already in this wiki article in under "Personal life." I have no idea when this was deleted. Can we please reinsert it? Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=181289394 --PaulLowrance (talk) 13:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The above quote was added in November 2006 and deleted in March 2008. I agree that it should be reinserted.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt the person who is doing to baptizing is what counts according to the Christian belief. When you say, "I've heard he sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment" you are probably referring to Jeremiah Wright's anger toward American war aggressions and racism-- reference: Jeremiah Wright controversy. There are a lot of good Americans who have voiced similar opinions.--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't recall any other Reverend of "Christian belief" that says things like; "US of KKK-A", "The government invented the HIV virus to destroy black people", and "God Damn America". I'm Christian, and that doesn't sound like my pastor. But hey, like I said, I think it's important to illustrate that Obama was baptized by him. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in Digital 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

First of all I am not defending the reverends words of anger. I am saying that such words are not uncommon from reverends, pastors, or whatever title you wish to give them. Anyhow, please show reliable references regarding the "US of KKK-A." As far as the the other quotes, sure you can. The famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) said things such as God sent Hurricane Katrina. Surely you recall John Hagee. He's the pastor that John McCain was associated with. Other famous Christians with similar statements include Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I'd much rather be associated with a reverend that thought the US government created HIV than a pastor who thought God sent Hurricane Katrina to kill human beings. Anyways, this discussion is getting outside the topic. Lets please not enter some heated debate.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I know your not defending him. I apologize for sounding bity. I just have strong reactions towards him. Here is a link to a video showing Wright himself saying "US of KKK A). Regards. Digital 14:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I apologize if I sounded biased. I agree that the reverend has in the past taken such issues way to far. According to Wiki page, "The Jeremiah Wright controversy gained national attention in March 2008 when ABC News, after reviewing dozens of Jeremiah Wright's sermons," Barack Obama has voiced his outrage of the reverends words-- Obama's response.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, when you say "I seriously doubt the person who is doing the baptizing is what counts", are you say that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus Christ, that it wasn't really notable that John did it. Instead, it was simply only notable because he did? I think I understand now. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in Digital 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

No, I am saying that according to the belief that it's not the person doing the baptizing that makes the difference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

We agree there. The act is the most important. I was simply stating that it's notable that Rev. Wright performed the baptism. Digital 14:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And getting back on topic... The reason editors removed the text isn't any sort of conspiracy to keep it out. It simply lacked a reference. Rather than leave a tag in the middle of a high-quality featured article, the text was removed. I'm sure if someone can find a good reference for it, the text can return. No great mystery here, folks. --GoodDamon 15:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think sourcing is really the secondary issue. The main issue is why should the quote be included in the article? What new information does it bring to the reader? At this point, with the article length being what it is and most sections already budded off into daughter articles (per summary style) every new paragraph added must have a strong argument for inclusion. Simply saying "I like it" or "it used to be there" isn't good enough. So far I haven't seen an argument for inclusion on the merits of the quote itself. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It does have a reference. It was part of the wiki for nearly two years. You need a consensus to remove such a well established famous Obama quote. This is an important quote, far more so than Obama playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, "it used to be there" is not an argument for inclusion. Why does the quote need to go in the article? Further, you're incorrect about consensus. The burden for consensus falls on the editor seeking to add material to an article. You have to gain consensus in order to add it (and please, please, do not make the argument circular by saying "I'm not adding anything because it used to be there.") Argue for inclusion on its own merits. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, now that I've seen the text, I'm of the opinion that removing it was the correct decision. It's complete fluff, and does nothing for the article but add verbiage. If anywhere, it belongs in a sub-article, but it's definitely not substantive enough for the main article. Perhaps without the quote, it wouldn't seem so fluffy, but with it it's just beyond the pale. --GoodDamon 15:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No it is not fluff. It's more important than the mention of playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably the same reason why any quote becomes notable? 1) It is an important part of Barack's history. 2) It educates people that Barak is not a muslim, but in fact a Christian, so much so that he takes his 1988 baptism seriously. 3) Too many people are spreading false information that Barack is a muslim.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, the aforementioned quote is the only mention of Barack's baptism.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The article already mentions Barack's membership to a Christian church. That is enough to convey that he isn't a Muslim (besides, anyone with any type of objective mind would see the truth in that smear). So far, the information you're providing isn't particularly substantive nor worthy by nature, as the key fact I see you've presented is to weigh and overpower that he's a christian for political reasons. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Now, I admit I would love the opportunity to link Obama with Reverend Wright further than what it already is, however that doesn't mean at the expense of article prose. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a lot better than John McCain's link to the famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) who said God sent Hurricane Katrina.--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, the wiki article did not mention his baptism. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team."--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

How about the following short text instead, "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988." followed by the reference number. --PaulLowrance (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

There was relatively recently a sentence very similar to this added to the article. I removed it after the editor who added it was unable to find a reference after a reasonable time, and after discussion of it on the talk page (now archived). The long quote is definitely too many words, but a simple sentence like PaulLowrance suggests seems perfectly relevant if someone locates an actual citation.

A partial citation was located in the recent discussion, but it only stated when Obama was baptized, not where. At the time the editor was arguing that it was likely the baptism occurred at Trinity. I agree it seems likely, but we cannot speculate here. I'm happy with the sentence either with the location removed, or with the location mentioned if citation is found. LotLE×talk 17:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is this same discussion from two weeks ago: Talk:Barack Obama/Archive_38#Baptism.

Quote reference --> Obama (2006), pp. 202–208. Portions excerpted in: Obama, Barack (October 23 2006). "My Spiritual Journey". TIME. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) See also: Guess, J. Bennett (February 9 2007). "Barack Obama, Candidate for President, is 'UCC'". United Church News. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Consensus interpretation: We will not allow one single mention on the entire WikiPedia website that Barack Obama was baptized in 1988. Show me one place in this entire website that you'll allow such a quote to exist, including the reference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps rather than spending so many thousands of words ranting about conspiracies against WP:TRUTH and strange and irrelevant digressions about the meaning of John the Baptist to Jesus, you could just provide a CITATION for what would be a completely non-controversial short addition if cited. Neither of the sources you give above mention Obama's baptism (at least not according to Ctrl-F). I guess it's more fun to brag about your persecution than it is to spend a few minutes with citable sources. LotLE×talk 18:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• So, according to you, John the Baptist is irrelevant and nobody cares about Jesus Christ? Digital 19:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You didn't read the source. See page 6 of the source. It's there.--PaulLowrance (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I did read that page. It says he was baptized, but it doesn't say that happened in 1988. So we have a reliable source that he was baptized and where. But it doesn't say when. --GoodDamon 18:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You guys all kill me; "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ by Reverend Wright in 1988." , , . Digital 19:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't verify that material in any of those sources. Time says he was baptised in 1988, and the UCC may claim him as a member (that wasn't clear from a quick glance), but it doesn't mention baptism at all, and I don't see any verification that Rev. Wright performed the baptism. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so leave the Rev. Wright bit out (although I thought it sounded good). The rest is sourced and accurate. But just an FYI: I talked to Obama personally and he said he was in-fact baptized by Wright. Digital 19:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"when John the Baptist baptized Jesus Christ"

Do you have a citation for that? And no, The Bible is not a reliable source. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Gasp Gasp, OMG*..."And no, The Bible is not a reliable source" it's gonna be a long afternoon :) Digital 20:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Still no answer as to where in wikipedia one can add that Barack Obama was baptized in 1988. Where? It was in the Barack Obama wiki for nearly two years. This is WikiPedia with rules, not "a group can take over the Obama page and do whatever they want." Why allow statements in the wiki that Barack plays basketball and refuse to allow one single mention in this entire wiki website that Barack was baptized in 1988? Can anyone answer?--PaulLowrance (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Paul, you need to submit this question to the Barack Obama Article Cable board of Directors (BOACBD). If you want, you can repost in a new section and I will make sure this matter is addressed in due time. Thanks for using Obama Talk Page Services.

P.S. Please see new section below, and make your edit. Digital 20:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Note that the date and location of Obama's baptism is in the article. Look at the article, Control-F, search for Trinity. Please don't start new sections for existing topics. --guyzero | talk 20:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama birthplace

Various proposals

We should cover Obama's groundbreaking political techniques

And I quote Barack Obama's website ,

"Studies have shown that kids can affect their parents and their siblings’ opinions and even change the opinions of older family members . . . including those of voting age. Are you still with me? Great, Let’s get started!"

And also here:

"For the first time in campaign history, children ages 12 and under, have a place to go and actually vote—through their voice. What a great way to be introduced to politics and to express your support for Senator Obama."

Obviously this is pretty groundbreaking and this deserves a mention in the article.TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, notable or relevant? Grsz 18:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That word "obviously" is doing a lot of work. Show us some reliable sources that make this assessment, please. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well it does say for the first time in history - I'd say that makes it notable. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

For the first time in history what? Kids can sign a poster for Obama, whoa, how revolutionary! Grsz 18:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)It's false. Children have mock elections all the time. See Kids Pick the President. It's also not reliably sourced. A politician's own website is not a good place to source claims made on the novelty of the campaign. Moreover, even if it were true, a childrens' outreach section of the Obama website does not rise to the level of being biographically important. What does it say about Obama's life, or even the election? It might belong in a grandchild article somewhere, or some other article on children's involvement in American elections.Wikidemon (talk) 18:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Since a politicians website is not a good source then we should remove the statement made that "Barack opposed the Iraq war" which is only sourced from Barack's website. In fact, I could quote Bill Clinton saying such a statement is the "biggest fairy tale" he's ever heard. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI, Fox News is the ONLY balanced news station on the planet right now. MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS...they're all in the bag for Obama. They talk about this all time time on the radio. Sean Hannity is always calling out how bias all the media networks are besides Fox. Digital 19:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And PS. Grsz11 just template warned me...how rude. Digital 19:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Haha, because Hannity is the archetype of journalistic integrity, right? Grsz 19:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(undent) He's not a journalist, he's a commentator with a moral compass that actually points North. But yes, I was hoping someone would see the irony in that statement. Digital 19:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thegoodlocust, please take more care when reading what other editors have written. Misquoting - or misunderstanding - another editor does nothing to further any discussion. Two editors now (myself and Wikiedemon) have asked for independent sources to verify your claim that this material is notable. If you can't provide them, this discussion isn't going anywhere productive. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand - what have I misunderstood? TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparantly Scholastic has conducted child elections since 1940 . Grsz 19:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Three editors (myself, Grsz11, and Wikidemon) have now questioned the notability of this material. If an independent reliable source isn't put forward that establishes its notability, the material cannot be included. In that case, further discussion will be unproductive and the thread should be archived. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks for explaining why I was wrong. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The claim that Barack obama gave $1 million dollars to "racially charged organizations" which have been described as "controversial"

Unreliable Source that Obama spoke out against the war (reference 116 looks to Barack's own website)

I quote NPR, "Even in this era of YouTube and camera phones, a recording of Obama's speech is all but impossible to find. The Obama campaign has gone so far as to re-create portions of the speech for a television ad, with the candidate re-reading the text, with audience sound effects." And so if there is no record of the speech, then how is a transcript from the candidates own website a good source? This does not make any sense to me. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a vanity recreation, but the first bit is enough to get the point. Grsz 19:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

How does this video not help prove my case? Barack "recreated" part of the speech and included audience effects. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

GoodLocust, seriously, you're on a not very fun path. I'd suggest to lay low for a while and edit some band pages or something. This is going nowhere good for you. Don't try and fight everyone at once. Less emotion. Digital 19:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, did anyone catch my reference to Karl Marx when referring to the editors on this page? I thought it was kinda funny...but I'm weird :-D Digital 19:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah i caught it, I thought it was a reference to Obama's "spread the wealth" comments. But anway, it wasn't my intention to fight anyone. I'm just curious how we can include something that is so poorly sourced. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If you find a way to include something that is poorly sourced into a FA, by all means PLEASE let us ALL know how :) Digital 19:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What does his speech have to do with his website? There is a perfectly good record of his website here: http://www.barackobama.com. If challenged, the website may not be a good source for a transcript of a speech. However, by republishing the speech the campaign endorses the contents, i.e. that Obama spoke out against the war. If he didn't do it at his speech he certainly does it on his website. As a primary source that is not as strong as a published account in a major independent reliable newspaper, which would be preferable. A cite to the campaign website can then be made as a supplemental, or courtesy link. I have a feeling all this commentary about reliable sources is a lost cause, though. There is zero chance for removing the statement that Obama is against the conduct of the war, although if you want to do some good you can propose a better source for it. Recreating this contentious section after it was archived, though, appears to be chasing a WP:POINT of some kind, though I can't tell and frankly don't care what point that is. Wikidemon (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

But the wikipedia article says he spoke out against the war - not that he "endorses" the message as you seem to be claiming on his website. It is far different to say that you strongly opposed something after the fact - especially when there was no record of him doing so at the time. I don't understand how there is "zero" chance of removing it - there is no evidence from the time that he gave this speech, and no recording of it anywhere. Facts are facts. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Some new information here. It looks like the Chicago Tribune article that covered the event, of pretty decent length, didn't include any mention of Barack Obama at all - or any state senator for that matter. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That isn't even the full article. Unless you used your library card. Grsz 20:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You can register to look at it or read it on numerous other websites that have reprinted it like this one. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, he isn't mentioned in the article. Our article doesn't say he made a breakthrough speech or something along those lines, it says he gave a speech at an anti-war rally. That's a simple fact. Grsz 20:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If it is a simple fact then it should be easy to find a source from the time period showing that he did make such a speech - not some after-the-fact account after years of Obama claiming he made such a speech on the stump. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a little strange. I just wish it wasn't so fringy feeling. Digital 20:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I does kind of feel that way, but the facts are the facts - no record of his speech, and even the local paper that covered it didn't mention Obama speaking at the time. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec X2) (addressing tgl) So what? The (claimed) absence of coverage in one account means it didn't happen? Please reread the article. Footnote 115 contains four citations to stand for the proposition that Obama attended the rally. If you need more, use google. For what it's worth, here is a sixth source. to stand for the proposition that Obama spoke out against the war at the Chicago rally.Wikidemon Enough of these conspiracy theories about Obama.(talk) 20:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Are any of those sources from the time period or are they after years of Obama making the claim on his website and at stump speeches?TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You are two clicks away from figuring it out for yourself, but as a hint you're barking up the wrong tree. Wikidemon (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I already looked at your source - it was written 6 years after the alleged speech and after several years of Obama making the claim. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I make this any simpler? Tree. Woof. Woof no good. Bad dog. To answer your question "are any of those sources from the time period" the answer is "yes, some of those sources are from the time period". Go back to the article, look for footnote 115 at the bottom of the page, and click on the blue hyperlinks there. You should figure these things out for yourself before you waste other editors' time with yet another conspiracy theory that "the facts" about Obama are not as they seem. Wikidemon (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) First off, please try to be respectful. Second, the source you mention is broken, but it refers to the story I linked above - and it contains absolutely no mention of Barack Obama. Again, I repeat, is there any source that mentions Barack Obama's speech from the time period? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Time period is irrelevant - your theory that Obama could have made up a speech he never gave and hoodwinked the press in the intervening time into believing it is too far over the line of weirdness and fringiness to be worth considering. Most or all of the links in footnotes 115 and 116 are not broken, and some are from the time. They describe the speech Obama gave. The new link works for me, and it apparently works for you - you deduced when it was published. I respect everyone's chance to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia; I do not respect repeatedly wasting people's time with fringe claims, inaccurate claims about what sources are in the article, and spurious interpretations of what those sources say. Wikidemon (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually time is relevant - otherwise wikipedia opens itself up to revisionist history. I have no doubt that he made a speech, but I do have questions about the claimed content since most of the claims have occured years later and come directly from his campaign website and stump speeches. Oh, and none of my claims have been inaccurate or wasteful - in fact, this entire discussion has improved the article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to propose a new rule that newspaper accounts of past events are unreliable, take that to WP:RS, not here. Please heed my caution and others to be more careful, and not waste people's time. 95% of your contributions today have been pointless, wrong, or both. Don't keep blustering through this.Wikidemon (talk) 21:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Please try to remain civil and don't attack me with straw mans. And, for that matter, quit deleting topics every time I try to have a discussion. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

← Oh for crying out loud. The sheer laziness of the people who desperately try to find justification for their extremely biased view is unbelievable. I paid $2.95 to get this contemporaneous article from the October 3, 2002 Chicago Daily Herald:

Date: October 3, 2002
Page: 8
Section: News

300 attend rally against Iraq war:

The Rev. Jesse Jackson called on the Bush administration Wednesday to "lead the world, not rule it" at a downtown rally protesting plans for war against Iraq. State Sen. Barak Obama, a Chicago Democrat; the Rev. Paul Rutgers, chairman of the Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago; and former state Sen. Jesus Garcia of Chicago, among others, joined Jackson in urging the federal government to avoid a military strike against Iraq. "While we're looking at Saddam Hussein, we're taking attention away from our economic problems," Jackson said, pointing to the recent stock market plunge and the $2 billion national deficit. Obama, along with several of the speakers, acknowledged the necessity of war in some cases, but only as a last resort. "I don't oppose all war; I oppose dumb war," Obama said. He also said a war in Iraq based on passion and politics would provoke the worst impulses of the Arab world. Police estimated 300 people attended the event.

- Greg Bryant and Jane B. Vaughn, Medill News Service

© Copyright Daily Herald, Paddock Publications, Inc.

You can do it yourself: Go to the Daily Herald archives and enter "obama" as your search term and choose the date range October 2, 2002, to October 3, 2002. You'll get an abbreviated search result indicating Obama's presence and support but you too can pay $2.95 to confirm the whole article. Will you stop now or are you now going to say it was talking about someone else because it misspelled his first name? Tvoz/talk 20:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not use the first citation in this thread? It even explains why there isn't much coverage of the speech.

Seems good enough to me. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 20:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, let's use the first source. Should we use Tvoz's source to in order to show the size of the crowd or would that be too POV? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The size of the crowd is not the issue, the speech and it's timing is. There's more:

Obama said the U.S. should focus on Afghanistan and on capturing Osama bin Laden. He spoke of "weekend warriors in the Bush administration with an ideological agenda." He called Saddam Hussein a butcher, but also stressed that the Iraqi dictator posed no imminent or direct threat to the United States. On that day, Obama also predicted a United States' occupation of Iraq of undetermined cost, length and consequences.

It's quite relevant that Obama predicted that this war would have undetermined consequences. ~ priyanath  20:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually the size is an issue, the wikipedia article currently says it was a "high profile" rally - which seems POV to me. Also, what is your source for those claims about Obama's speech? We don't have many sources from the time indicating what he really said. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, the source is the NPR link you provided at the beginning of this thread. ~ priyanath  21:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah I thought you had a source, from the time, which quoted him as saying that - not an article written 6 years later. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

All things considered, the way the article currently presents Obama's position on the war is a very good summary, and extremely well sourced. I can see why this was made a featured article. ~ priyanath  21:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did you take out that it had a low turnout?

The source says this, "Despite the small turnout, the rally marked the first high-profile public disapproval in Chicago of the Bush administration's war against terrorism."

Keeping in that it was "high profile," but leaving out that it had a small turnout gives a very misleading impression of the rally and it is very POV. We should either remove both, or put both in - not mix and match the adjectives we like. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That's an excellent point, and I agree that we need to keep the integrity of the quote/source. Digital 21:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I reverted Thegoodlocust's addition of "but low turnout" to the description of the anti-war rally because the number attending the rally ranges from 1,000 to 10,000 depending on the source (Chi Trib says 1,000, Sun-Times says "Crowd estimates from police and organizers ranged from 5,000 to 10,000"). So calling it "low turnout" is entirely subjective and POV. It was very high profile, since it was covered by every major newspaper in Chicago and even beyond, according to reliable sources. ~ priyanath  21:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing the two anti-war rallies - the first one ranged from 300-1000, and was described in the article as having a low turnout - keep in mind that this is Chicago we are talking about. Also, the low estimate of 300 people was given by the police - organizers tend to overinflate their numbers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The turnout is still irrelevant to the context of this article - which is that Obama spoke out against the war at that early date. ~ priyanath  22:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Then "high profile" needs to be removed too - if you just say it was a "high profile rally" then it sounds like it was a big gathering - not a small group of people like it really was. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose addition of low turnout claim as irrelevant and POV. I mildly oppose removing the "high profile" because that phrase is relevant and gives necessary context, and the statement "first" would likely be inaccurate without it. A less weaselly sounding adjective could be used if it can be kept concise, e.g. "well-covered" or something like that. The alternative is to say "a rally" without an adjective, but that suffers from a lack of context. Why would we describe a particular speech Obama gave at a rally in his BIO, when politicians give speeches all the time? The reason this is notable is that Obama was one of the very first moliticians to come out in a prominent way against the Iraq war.Wikidemon (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually it would be something like an "anti-war rally" which gives the context just fine. Also, it wasn't very notable at the time, and only became notable after Obama began running for higher office- lots of low-level politicians opposed the war. We probably have close to ten thousand state senators in this country. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Wikidemon above -- this speech, and Obama's stance on the Iraq War in general have been mentioned many, many times by reliable sources, thus the "high-profile"ness of this speech and the contents. I suspect the words high profile came directly out of one of the sources. Anyway, I'm for looking for better adjectives by way of compromise; "well-covered" might work. --guyzero | talk 22:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"High profile" is a direct quote from the NPR source - we could put it in quotes but that would be awkward. NPR was being neutral. In the article here it might sound like opinion, although paraphrasing to make it sound less so takes it farther from the source.Wikidemon (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep 'high profile' then, since it's from a neutral reliable source. It surely refers to the media coverage of the speeches - we've seen the heavy print coverage, and there was probably quite alot of tv at the time. ~ priyanath  22:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No NPR did not categorize it as "high profile" - the old source from when it first happened said it had a low turnout but was also "high profile." Just to be clear I SUPPORT either including both descriptions from the same sentence of the source OR removing both descriptors all together - I just want it to be consistent. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh and to "priyanath" - if there was "probably" a lot of tv and "heavy print" coverage, then how come we've only been able to find a few articles of the event at the time? And half don't even mention Barack Obama - plus there is no video of his speech. I think we can do better than "probably." TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

More on the baptism

First off, you guys are no fun at all. Joking aside, it's perfectly acceptable to note that he was baptized given the fact that we've established:

• He was in fact baptized
• The baptism was preformed in 1988
• The baptism was held at his church

Digital 19:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Pointing out vandalsim

Please note: "Editing other users' comments to substantially change their meaning (e.g. turning someone's vote around), except when removing a personal attack (which is somewhat controversial in and of itself). Signifying that a comment is unsigned is an exception. Please also note that correcting other users' typos is discouraged, per WP:VANDAL.

Can we all refrain from editing other peoples edits. Because of this, I look like an idiot a few paragraphs above by what seems like I had a nice conversation with Obama while enjoying a cup of coffee or something. Digital 20:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No, reverting uconstructive / disruptive edits is necessary maintenance work for the talk page, without which things would quickly grind to a halt. Please do not accuse other editors of vandalism. If your comment gets caught up in the archiving, you're free to move, delete, or update it. Wikidemon (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't accuse anyone of vandalism, and I tried to sound "light hearted" about the whole thing because I know that no malicious intent was intended. I just felt completely overridden in a very reverted manner! Digital 20:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I've stricken part of my comment, accordingly. Regarding making good natured comments to lighten up disruptive threads, all I can say is if you stand by the puddle you might get splashed.Wikidemon (talk) 20:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Closing as trolling started by account with history of vandalism on this page; avoiding deletion because of modicum of conversation on the topic - Wikidemon (talk) 23:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

This sentence in the opening section is completely absurd. What "official business" would a senator have? The article hardly mentions official business abroad in the body, nor does it appear that Obama has anymore official travel abroad than anyone other senator, but in fact the contrary. The way this reads right now gives a subtle impression of POV prose that should result in either this sentence being removed or the information in the body of the article being expanded per WP:N. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Look who's there. The POV vandal is back with opinion rather than with facts backed-up by sources. if you DO have sources for your claims just state them here instead of getting editorial in your comments, please.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Because it suggests that Obama has foreign policy experience. Thats why it's there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

See the Barack_Obama#Committees section where this is well referenced. Members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee often have official business in .... foreign countries. ~ priyanath  23:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree it seems like a subtle POV push. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not a POV push, but still, the mention in the Committees section consists of just a single sentence. The lead is meant to summarize the article as a whole - this one tidbit doesn't seem notable enough to mention there. »S0CO 23:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)That is laughable. Does this warrant a weighed mention in the opening section? I can't find one clearly sourced piece of information that is relevant to how he improved foreign relations. When Times Magazine, CNN, Fox News, and ABC all reflect lengthy articles pointing to Obama's complete lack of foreign policy, Misplaced Pages glorifies a few paid vacations to shake some hands once or twice. Not taking away from some of the obvious good work in this article, this fact doesn't seem very neutral in the least. 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, quick, close the discussion before healthy discussion can take place. Because once the article is written, it is perfect and can never be changed or evolve again! 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Please close this discussion now - the IP who started it, 70.250.214.209 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is a problem troll/vandal here, who I believe is connected to some long-term harassment of editors, and it is attracting more trolls. Thegoodlocust is edit warring over trying to keep it open. I closed it initially, but have self-reverted lest any wikigamers see my article monitoring as a 3RR violation. Wikidemon (talk) 23:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I'm not opposed to closing the discussion once it's discussed, I just would like to know why that sentence persists, when it's such a small detail in the body of the article? Why would that much weight need to be given to his small amount of foreign experience. Plus, the sentence is out of place and doesn't add any context to the opening at all. I would just like a rewording, or removal, or expansion, or anything really. 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Plus, it seems Thegoodlocust, SoCo (I think?), and myself all agree that it is just not notable for the intro. Can't we discuss ways to improve. I personally think something like this; "Obama has also traveled aboard during the two years he served on the foreign relationship committee" or something. 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It's official! So, let's get to work updating all applicable WP articles

LA Times headline re now foregone conclusion → "New Mexico newspaper headline: Obama Wins!"  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 01:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice "joke". Is there anything that would contribute to this page?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Levity perhaps. Justmeherenow has a history of unprovoked good cheer. Wikidemon (talk) 01:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I guess that's what you gotta do when you only print two editions a month. Grsz 01:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Now that's a good one :) . Cheers, --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources for Updating this and related articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Most of these desribe Obama's funding on the AAAN as "controversial" and I suspect these would be also good for updating the Rashid Khalidi and AAAN articles (among others) in addition to adding more detail in this article.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/27/obamas-education-groups-funded-controversial-organiations-s-tax-returns/

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-barackbash1,0,7527621.story

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS134696+25-Feb-2008+PRN20080225

TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Enough about your fringe/conspiracy attempts. Either try to improve the article or stick with blogs, etc. Thanks.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I was told I needed more sources to describe Obama's funding of these groups as "controversial." I have complied with more sources. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

GoodLocust, I'm convinced you'll find Conservapedia more to your liking. Grsz 03:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Republican, and even I know Conservapedia is a joke. It's like a mixture of Misplaced Pages and Unencyclopedia all rolled into a big conservative orgy with no real point but to provide a quick feel-good feeling in knowing some people are normal, regardless of how ill directed they are. 75.33.218.39 (talk) 03:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, you got that one right. Point for you ;)--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks are unnecessary Grsz - and I actually happen to be a democrat. TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Democrat, Republican or whatever. Your self-proclaimed (and non-provable) affiliation has nothing to do with it. Take a closer look at your Reuters source. The source of this article is "Aaron Klein" who is affiliated with WND.com. Can you hear a bell ringing here? Oh, and you're a Democrat with lower case? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk • contribs) 03:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

If he's a Democrat with a small "d", doesn't that just mean he's not a Socialist? 75.33.218.39 (talk) 03:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You've just lost your +point from above and owe now several. *big smile*--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you guys even read the Fox News article? That's actually a surprisingly well referenced link with some very interesting information. What would be the harm in looking at that objectively for this article? It covers decades in Obama's life...hence relevant to his bio IMO. 75.33.218.39 (talk) 03:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Fox news when it comes to Obama? Then let's make the Huffington Post reliable for each attack on McCain! Oh, no. That would be violating WP policies in both instances. So I guess we have to stick to the facts here.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(undent) You're right. I suppose it's nothing worth noting that Fox News is one of the largest (or largest period) news networks in the world. I suppose most of the world is biased though...right? 75.33.218.39 (talk) 03:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between Quantity and Quality and yes, everybody is somehow biased; There is no escape and being so close to the election it's getting harder and harder to get the truth out of news. Certain news channels (and Fox is not the only one I'm referring to) become less reliable every day and it certainly won't change till after the election is over. In my mind that is not just an opinion but a fact, (unfortunately). But enough of forum-soaping here. Wrong place for it.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Propose we close this as yet another pointless discussion trying to insert poorly sourced fringe-y anti-Obama material into the encyclopedia. Any objections among the established editors? Wikidemon (talk) 04:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Wikidemon. Close it now or I'll do it. Already wrote way to much soap in response.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Fox news and the Florida Sun Sentinel are "poorly sourced?" If there is a consensus among sources that Obama funded controversial groups then it should be included. TheGoodLocust (talk) 04:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sun-sentinel (a rewrite) and Reuters (it's a press release) are both from WorldNetDaily. Closing. ~ priyanath  04:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• (My personal views on, eg, one underlying question would probably align more than not with the harsh criticisms offered by those such as Chomsky and Khalidi..... ) however, FWIW, as a news junkie and Wiki-contributor, what amazes me the most is the impression of incredible insecurity given off by center-left dominated places in the media, through the apparently absolute imperative they feel to immediately silence even the slightest bit of arguementation as arises from anywhere on the conservative side of the spectrum. (I mean, geez, the general-interest news site Slate at least has one journalist who is Republican; Misplaced Pages articles concerning Obama cannot countenance open participation from even just one.)  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 05:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama "magna cum laude"?

I was under the impression that Harvard Law School does not rank their students, and hasn't since the 1970s. How did Obama graduate magna cum laude? Also, where is the original source for this?

Click on the footnote links next to the words magna cum laude to be taken to the sources (The Guardian and Encyclopedia Britannica). Quick google search shows that multiple additional reliable sources document his graduating magna cum laude. I removed your edit-request template as you did not specify a specific edit to be made, as per the instructions on the template. --guyzero | talk 03:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Mention of foreign trips in lead

The previous topic was closed due to the involvement of IPs with bad reps; per Wikidemon's suggestion, I'll post my rationale for the change here.

The lead of an article is meant to summarize its contents. Currently, a sentence in the lead lists countries which Obama has visited during his time in the Senate, representing only one sentence in the larger article. Given that John McCain has made more international trips than Obama, and yet no mention of these is given in the lead of his article, plus the aforementioned conflict with summary style, I would suggest that the mention of foreign trips be removed or replaced with a sentence mentioning Obama's international travel without providing a list of countries. »S0CO 04:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe some changes can be done but not because "other stuff exists". You could argue the opposite at john McCain's page to include more details because "stuff exists here". Clear enough?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I support inclusion of that 13 word sentence—which is about as short as a meaningful sentence can be—and provides a summary of an important aspect of his Senate duties as a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. ~ priyanath  04:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm familiar with WP:WAX. I just noted a discrepancy and thought change might have been needed. »S0CO 04:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate to brake it to you but this guideline doesn't apply here since (here) it is not about an entire article and not even a sub. If applied in spite of my first argument against it, it would have the same merit to include parts in question to other articles. So now the question is, which way to go. Since every article has its unique merits and reasons there always will be differences compared to other existing "stuff". There is just no default in that matter. This guideline speaks for and against inclusion and therefore is a wash. Obeying this policy does not lead to a binding conclusion and one rule alone rarely solves a problem. As in most cases it is a healthy mix of several rules/guidelines and policies which can (and usually do) lead to resolve complex issues.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(yes, a vandalistic IP who is now blocked for 8 days) I support keeping the wording as-is. The twelve words in question, "and made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa", (later expanded to thirteen when it became a separate sentence, with "and" replaced by "He also") were added on June 10, 2007. That was a summary of a 300+ word, three paragraph section "Official travel", one of two covering Obama's entire senate career. That is slightly less than the ratio of the entire lead (280 words) to the entire article (4,700 words) at the time. It was all well sourced. The article made the point that Obama's foreign relations subcommittee work, and the foreign travel involved in that, was important to both his career and his life. So it is well within reason for editors to decide travel is worth mentioning in the lead. The section does not seem to have been seriously challenged for sixteen months until now so it is safe to say there was a stable consensus on that part of the lead. By early 2008 the senate career section had been reorganized by the two sessions of congress rather than by subject, and the travel information pared down to one long paragraph. Around May 2008 it was reorganized again to divide the material into "legislation" and "committees." The travel section remained at one long paragraph. There was a general campaign to shorten the article over the summer and we managed to trim the article down from 6,300 words / 137,000 bytes to 5,000 words / 117,000 bytes. However, the travel section got trimmed without discussion as a separate matter by a disruptive anti-Obama editor, now topic banned. He made a lot of changes in short order that were more or less accepted by the community, after some reversions and further edits (see Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 33#Wholesale changes to Featured Article without prior discussion). There was no specific discussion at the time of trimming the travel section, and perhaps it got lost in the shuffle. Looking back, perhaps it got trimmed too far. However, there is an inherent problem with listing travel destinations that is similar to listing legislation, namely what to include without it becoming a laundry list. It is clearly an important issue, but it is hard to justify why one trip gets mentioned when another does not. At any rate, there is no weight problem here. We could probably find thousands to tens of thousands of articles about Obama's trips overseas as a senator, far too many to count. It is up to the editors here to decide how important that is to telling Obama's life story. I would say the 50 words now in the main article and 13 words in the lead is about right in proportion to the overall trajectory of things. Wikidemon (talk) 06:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Nicely said, well explained and laid out. It's quite complete and basically nothing of importance to add on.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 07:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Proof of Misplaced Pages hacking & abuse!

Since this thread is wasting the time of editors who are trying to help someone who does not want to be helped, it isn't funny anymore and has been archived. --barneca (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

At this very moment you can see the google cache for yesterday, Oct 28, 2008 10:36:43 GMT.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:1lCewv9YnT8J:en.wikipedia.org/Barack_Obama+%22barack+obama%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=firefox-a

If you hurry up and view googles cache before google updates it you will see there is no mention of Barack's baptism at the Trinity United Church of Christ. So this Barack Obama wiki went from detailed information about Barack's baptism (~~ one month ago) to nothing (as of yesterdy) to it's present outline of his baptism.

As of late yesterday I could not find any history of yesterdays insertion of Barack's baptism in this wiki article. This proves that wikipedia pages are being modified at a high level. As suspected, to say the least the wikipedia website is being abused for political purposes. I know for fact that ~~ one month ago the Barack Obama wiki article contained detailed information about his baptism. For example it mentioned the entire name of the church, which is "Trinity United Church of Christ." At this moment the Barack Obama article only says "He was baptized at Trinity church in 1988."

I searched high and low. I've been a system admin for several Unix servers since 1997. I've been a software engineer for ~ 30 years and was programming computers since the age of 13. So I know how to search a web page, and I literally search dozens of times on the Barack Obama web page.

So without any wiki history the wiki article went from a detailed mention of Barack's baptism, to nothing, and now back to an outline of his baptism. At least I now have my personal proof what is happening at wikipedia. Having been a system admin and software engineer, I know how easy it is to place backdoors on websites to allow key people to modify the pages and history logs without a trace. What a shame. Can't humanity accomplish anything free of abuse?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, the IP address, 209.85.173.104, of the above link is owned by google. It is not my IP address or web server.--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully this will be my last day at wikipedia for awhile, but if you care about your wiki community then could you please report this to higher authority? I'm certain the founder would like to know if wikipedia is being hacked or abused, especially for political purposes. I provided the proof. As you can see the google cache server recorded the Barack Obama history page yesterday showing there was no mention of the baptism, but as of late yesterday it magically reappeared. I checked every history change that occured yesterday and there was no insertion of his baptism.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

BARACK OBAMA + JIMBO WALES + MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL = ????. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Paul, you seem to think Jimbo would want to know about this. From the evidence you provided about "key people," what makes you think it isn't Jimbo himself? RonCram (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you checked the revision history, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Barack_Obama&action=history? Looks to me like it's all there. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I closely analyzed the history more than once. It's none of my business who believes me, but that I inform you. As expected, of course the abuser is going to eventually edit the history log. I tried my best to inform people as quickly as possible so they could see before the abuser changed it. I have my personal proof. One area the abuser cannot modify is google cache. Yesterday on several occasions I tried to *re*insert the Obama baptism, and in every case it was removed. Now it's there. The google cache provides proof that I was telling the truth that it was not there yesterday.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The cached version you posted seems to be exactly the same as what our records say was there at 10:36 on October 28th. Do you think differently? The sentence about his baptism was inserted during this edit by User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood. As I clearly said, yesterday I tried to reinsert the Barack baptism text, but it was removed, and suddenly it reappeared with a history trace. When it reappeared I checked the history in detail numerous times to see who added the Barack baptism. There was no history. As stated, I expected the abuser to eventually redit the history to prove me wrong. It is of no concern to me what others think of me, but that I do what I believe is correct, which is to inform people as quickly as possible. The admins and such of this server and website are advised to carefully watch for unusual activity. I have my personal proof at least one person is editing the site without leaving a trace. IMO the people who are trying to make this appear as if I am seeing things or whatever their intent is should be a good starting point of those to carefully watch.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I didn't realize you were alleging that this was a conspiracy, in which all the evidence has been changed so as to disagree with your version of things. That explains a lot. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Will this article become more NPOV once the election is over?

There are several editors here who will not allow any of the controversial issues in Obama's life to be referenced. This is a disservice to Misplaced Pages readers. Here are just a few that have not made the article.

• Obama's support for Khalidi
• Obama's fundraiser Tony Rezko .
• Obama and Ayers funded radical education groups rather than working to improve children's grades.
• Obama has had a lengthier and closer relationship than he has admitted.
• Experts say computer tests confirm that Bill Ayers is the author of "Dreams from My Father."

I will be glad when the election is over. Hopefully Misplaced Pages can get back to its mission on November 5.RonCram (talk) 14:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

redacted a couple BLP vios Wikidemon (talk) 19:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is that WorldNetDaily is not a reliable source. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

WorldNetDaily can only be considered a reliable source for the opinions of its authors. It is not a reliable source for any factual information, particularly when it comes to attempts to insert fringe theories into a biography of a living person. This has been explained to you previously. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I cited the Los Angeles Times, Sun Sentinel and WorldNetDaily. You only discuss WND. WorldNetDaily is quoted on Misplaced Pages more than 1,000 times. Not all of these have to do with the opinions of its authors. The Misplaced Pages community as a whole considers WND reliable, only certain editors claim it is not RS. I have also cited one of the papers WND referenced in writing their article. While people may consider the theory Ayers wrote (or doctored) Obama's book as far-fetched, there is no reason to consider the WND article as falsified or even controversial. They have supplied the original document on which the story is based.RonCram (talk) 15:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and WP:FRINGE. Do not continue to disrupt this talkpage with BLP violations. WP:BLP covers talkpages as well. You are welcome to take you claims regading WND to the reliable source noticeboard. --guyzero | talk 15:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

No, WorldNetDaily is not considered reliable by the "Misplaced Pages community as a whole." Quite the opposite. It is considered neither reliable nor verifiable and, far from having a reputation for fact-checking, it has a reputation for espousing fringe theories and repeating blatantly false information. The fact that there are plenty of poorly-written and poorly-sourced articles out there in the dark corners of Misplaced Pages is no secret. But we don't use those articles as an excuse to insert unreliable sources into Featured Articles. There isn't much more to say on that subject. Please stop disrupting this talkpage with fringe conspiracy theories that will never be inserted in this article (before or after the election). --Loonymonkey (talk) 16:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

No. WND is considered reliable by all but the politicos of a certain bent. There is nothing fringe about the story in the LA Times or FOX News or Sun Sentinel. You all are just trying to censor this page which is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. Blog posts like DailyKos, Huffington Post, iReport and LittleGreenFootballs are not reliable. I have no problem with that. Those have no editorial oversight. WND does have editorial oversight. There is nothing fringe about the stories from LA Times or FOX News but you want to act as if they are on the same level as LittleGreenFootballs. It is folly. RonCram (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

That's really more than enough. Ron, for what is hopefully the last time, this article talk page is not a forum for recycling the latest partisan talking points, conspiracy theories, guilt-by-association for everyone who once occupied the same room as Obama, and lowest-common-denominator smears. It is beyond me why you retain the ability to edit either this article or talkpage, given your record of consistent and unapologetic abuse of Misplaced Pages as a soapbox. Please consider taking a break until after the election, at which point you can once again militate to include this litany of clearly unencyclopedic material if you like. MastCell  16:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me for discussing process here, but I have been considering an appeal at AN/I to deal with several problems and to monitor this page more closely from now out through the election. In the past few days we have a surge of conspiracy theories, bickering, closed threads, and 3-4 vandal blocks per day. It is a major time sink, and it seems that any productive work here is hopeless. Perhaps we should be on lockdown until after the election. I can't see anything coming up of such significant biographical importance that it cannot wait until after the election. Not page protection, but a stern, short term, zero-tolerance approach could do a lot to keep the peace. Is it worth proposing? I don't want to start an unnecessary AN or ANI if we've already got it covered. Wikidemon (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Something needs to happen, since it's likely to get worse every day through Nov. 4. More admins watching and ready to quickly block trolls, fringe theorists, and vandals would be a good start. Full page protection may be necessary at some point. ~ priyanath  18:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I for one think that a full page lock is a great idea. If that doesn't work, maybe we can figure out a way to keep all opposition from changing the article for the worst. Great call everyone. Digital 19:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps as a matter of fairness, we can change every single article about any living person and take out everything that is considered negative. If we do that then we can all be happy, because nobody looks bad.--Jojhutton (talk) 20:00, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats a noble idea, and in fact the agenda on at least this article's persona. Digital 20:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Obama and Khalidi close friends

According to a new unreleased video tape, Obama has a close friendship with a Palestine Radical according to mainstream media. Is it notable to mention his close friendship with him? 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Having the occasional dinner and attending a party with a Chicago professor is not notable within the context of Obama's biography, no. We don't document the latest smears per WP:NOTNEWS --guyzero | talk 16:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

And McCain, when he was chairman of the International Republican Institute, funded Khalidi's organization with a half million dollar grant. Neither of these Zomg news items are relevant to the bios of their subjects, reliable sources notwithstanding. See Misplaced Pages:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM for a broader understanding of what an encyclopedia is and isn't. And WP:UNDUE for good measure. ~ priyanath  16:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Can we please declare a moratorium on election-year talking points in all Obama and McCain related articles until November 5th? Unless McCain eats a puppy on live television or Obama sets himself on fire at a press conference, no OMFGBIGNEWS coming out between now and the election should go into any article. --GoodDamon 17:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha, "OMFGBIGNEWS!!!11!!1!!!1!!11!!!!!!!111!!!!" was pretty funny. Ok, I can agree to keep the fluff out of the article, unless something comes out that is completely devastating (e.g. McCain eats a kitten, Obama sets himself on fire, or if a certain video of Obama sitting at a table toasting to Khalidi, Ayers, and Bernidine while sitting at a table surrounded by Palestinians). The latter would definitely be note worthy though! 68.143.88.2 (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I've read WP:UNDUE, WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:RECENTISM and I can't find the specific texts which suggest adding mention of Obama's association with with Khalidi or Ayers to violate any of those. Is the text you are referring to in WP:BLP? I genuinely interested in familiarizing myself with said policy, and would be very grateful if someone could help me find such specific text. Regards, Digital 19:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not news; we're not here to break any news about Barack Obama, John McCain, or anyone else. Recentism is a bad habit many Wikipedians engage in; because something is happening now, because it's in the news now, because politician A is talking about politician B now, it absolutely positively has to be in the article and oh my god isn't it just the biggest thing to ever happen ever ever? No. It's not. And in two weeks, we'll have the perspective to see that. Recentism in articles about living politicians is most commonly engaged in by POV pushers who would like to override a body of content covering a lifetime with new, and often largely inaccurate, information coming out now, typically from partisan sources. Case in point: Rashid Khalidi. Khalidi is not a terrorist. He is not a particularly controversial figure. He is an activist for Palestinian rights, and an Arab studies scholar. He's an American, too, but I'm willing to bet you didn't know that. Now then... If we crammed in all sorts of things about this guy into Barack Obama's BLP, we'd have to go in and remove it after today's talking point died down. Better to do the research first, say "hey, this is just a campaign talking point," and disregard it. Now then... Are you going to stop "researching" at the blog containing today's talking points and contribute to this article, or are you going to continue disrupting this talk page with your bogus questions above? --GoodDamon 20:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I actually did find why it shouldn't be included. However, it was in WP:BLP and NOT in WP:UNDUE since the sourcing was very good. However, on the lead in back on traveling to foreign countries, this does violate WP:UNDUE since it is in-fact such a small piece of his life. Adding that into the bio of a person is unjust, whereas adding it into the job requirements of the position he held, or mentioning it in the article body, is fine. That is how it should be. Digital 20:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) And I certainly hope you didn't think my questions were bogus. I sat here and read for 20 minutes trying to find out what I was doing wrong (or, more to the point why my pattern of thought was inconsistent with policy). If I'm going to contribute effectively, I need to know what I should do regarding my contributions, and that is exactly what I'm trying to learn. I'm actually a little offended that you'd say I was posting bogus questions; I really hope I didn't send any innuendo that I was attempting such actions. Digital 20:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that GD had you confused with someone else. The question is obviously sincere.Wikidemon (talk) 20:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

No worries if that's all case. I know I can AGF with GD (hence why I didn't accuse him of anything) :) Also, since apparently consensus is against me on removing that random sentence in the lead, I'm going to just ignore it while reading the article. So, until if/when consensus changes (maybe after the election), it's ok in my book. Just keep in mind, if anyone asks me if Obama ever traveled on official business I'm going to simply say consensus hasn't been reached on that IMO. Digital 20:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

My bad, sorry about that. Guhh... Been on article patrol too much this week, it's turning the brain to mush. Striking "bogus" comment. --GoodDamon 20:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Digital, the unwritten rule your action (viz., pointing out background details concerning the Democratic nominee with which some in the electorate may not be in full harmony (and not me, by the way; I'm personally more than fine with many elements of Khalidi's advocacy!))) violates is that it provides information that is incorrect -- politically. Please make a note of this and begin to act accordingly and you will have no further problems editing hereabouts.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 20:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Yeah! After all, how can people make an informed decision about Obama if they don't know he's a foreign-born Muslim (and scary black Christian extremist!) who pals around with terrorists, wants Socialism, steals votes through the ACORN branch of his campaign, bought his house for free from a crook, won't recite the Pledge of Allegiance, won't wear a flag pin, and will always lie to get his way, just like Saul Alinsky taught him? America deserves to know these things from Misplaced Pages, and suppressing them is suppressing free speech! ...Did that cover all the bases, or did I miss something? --GoodDamon 21:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention that he was trained in terrorist madrasas. Are you trying to hide something from the voters who need to know the truth? ~ priyanath  21:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You also failed to mention that he's directly to blame for the 2008 financial crisis, and is the anti-christ. Digital 21:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Justmeherenow, that is basically the way I understood it. Sometimes it takes a while for the meaning to sink in. It's difficult with hot topics like this to force yourself to not read "the letter" of each policy sentence, but instead try and grasp the meaning of such. I'm guilty of that, but I'm honestly trying to improve. Digital 20:55, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

religion?

As of reading it at 19:50, GMT the page lists Obama as a follower of Islam? the article then goes into detail about his Christian beliefs, baptism and personal convictions on the subject of Christianity, and the semi-smear campaigns lodged against him to portray him as a Muslim. This seems, at best, contradictory?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.110.242 (talk • contribs)

Must have been a vandal. It's been removed, thanks for the heads-up. ♪TempoDiValse♪ 19:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Protecting political articles subject to OMFGINTHENEWS syndrome

Would the idea of creating a Wikiprojects - Current Elections (worldwide) perhaps help? If we can build a small team of editors who improves/maintains articles of current political candidates and articles related as such, I think we can much more effectively manage increased trolling/vandalism in such articles. We already have a fairly diverse group on this articles talk page, and I'm sure more would be willing to join. Wikidemon and Gooddamon in particular seem fairy well versed in Misplaced Pages policy, Grsz is a good "watch dog", and I could help balance you guys out and keep things interesting :)

I don't know, just a thought. I'm just not a big fan of full protection, it's so iky feeling. Digital 20:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

As a long time, high-count editor of this article I can tell you that in the last 2 years it has only very rarely been under full protection. It was after he received the nomination and some partisan anti-Obama editors descended here to edit and distort - without a real understanding of how neutrality, verifiability, reliability, civility, and other core principles work - that short-term full protection was needed. The vandals are kept under control - I've long advocated semi-protection for the political articles because I think it puts too much of a burden on editors to continually revert the nonsense and often downright evil things that trolls and vandals add, but I do not advocate full protection except in very extreme circumstances and only for a very short time. I personally doubt adding another level of bureaucracy will be any more effective in controlling vandals and trolling than we already are. In general the idea of "review boards" has never gotten much traction here, maybe because it goes against the basic spirit of the project - I'm not questioning your sincerity in making the suggestion, but don't see what tools such a group would have that would make a difference, but maybe I'm missing something. Tvoz/talk 21:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Another source showing Project Vote, where Obama worked, is a sister organization of ACORN

As if that wasn't obvious from my previous source which lists it as such and shows they have the same address. This new source also says ACORN was given a donor list by the Barack Obama campaign although that may have to wait until we get an ACORN section or put it in a different article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages featured articles
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
• Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• FA-Class biography articles
• FA-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• FA-Class U.S. Congress articles
• High-importance U.S. Congress articles
• WikiProject U.S. Congress persons
• FA-Class WikiProject Illinois articles
• Top-importance WikiProject Illinois articles
• FA-Class Hawaii articles
• Mid-importance Hawaii articles
• WikiProject Hawaii articles
• FA-Class Chicago articles
• Top-importance Chicago articles
• WikiProject Chicago articles
• FA-Class African diaspora articles
• Low-importance African diaspora articles
• WikiProject African diaspora articles
• FA-Class politics articles
• High-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• Unassessed United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• Unassessed United States articles of Low-importance
• Unassessed United States presidential elections articles
• Unknown-importance United States presidential elections articles
• WikiProject United States presidential elections articles
• WikiProject United States articles
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press