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Revision as of 23:14, 7 October 2005

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

An event mentioned in this article is a September 7 selected anniversary.

To anonymous deleter: I put back the text you deleted from this article because I could see no reason why it shold be removed. If you think there is a reason why it should be deleted, feel free to explain here. DJ Clayworth 13:54, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Was it a single German bomber that accidentally dropped its load over London on Aug 24 1940 or were there several aircraft involved in this incident? I've seem to remember hearing that it was a single bomber, but http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1940/aug40/24aug40.htm suggests that there were several aircraft involved. Jooler 18:02, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the Blitz, The Blitz?

Isn't "the Blitz" the more common capitalisation, rather than "The Blitz"?

Unfortunately, it is not possible to have a wikipedia article name beginning with a capital letter, due to technical restrictions.

Ahkayah cuarenta y siete 23:11, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Who Won?

Firstly the title of this section is awful. I don't like seeing questions in encyclopaedia articles like this, and it is such a glib phrase. Secondly the analysis given in the whole section is a load of cobblers. Jooler 23:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1800 Megaton bombs??

"15th November 1940 - the Luftwaffe returns to London hitting almost every borough. It uses a new bomb nicknamed Satan - it was huge - 1800 megatons of high explosive and it was a delayed action bomb. " 1800 Megatons? I don't think so. I'll remove that information. Do "delayed action bombs" exist? If anybody believes to know more about the subject, please rectify.--Malbi 18:50, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

There were such things as delayed action bombs. Obviously not of that size though. What they were nicknamed I've no idea. Shimbo 09:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

They were naval mines deliberatly dropped as city blockbusters. Clearly the number is an order of magnatude out, otherwise the Battle of the Atlantic would not have lasted as long as it did! A quick google returned too much noise, but a search with 23 November 1939 might lead to a page on them for this use. Philip Baird Shearer 11:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Blitzkrieg

the German word Blitzkrieg, doesn't mean "Lightning War", but "Fast War", suddenly and fast as a flash...

The Blitz

How ironic it seems that the London subway was a safe shelter during The Blitz and lately it proved to be the most risky place to be because of fanatics concealing explosives while they ride the tube.Musicwriter 20:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC).

I'm sorry to have to take this tone but, please, get some perspective. User:A.K.A.47

The Battle of the Beams

There is a section in the Battle of Britain article about the German use of beams to guide their aircraft. I think this would be more apropriate as part of this article as they were mostly used at night during the blitz.Shimbo 09:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The Blitz → Blitz. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Avoid the definite article ("the") and the indefinite article ("a"/"an") at the beginning of the page name --Philip Baird Shearer 11:13, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Oppose: While I recognize and support the convention, this particular incident is almost always referred to (so far as I've experienced) as "The Blitz". Oberiko 13:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
• Support: You can still write "The Blitz"; but as one word you can also link, without pipings to "the blitzing of London". This is precisely parallel to the cases listing in the Naming Convention cited above. Septentrionalis 17:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose . As you'd expect. The naming convention is not inclusive enough and needs to be refined to include cases such as this where the definitie article makes the subject something that it would not be if the definite article was excluded. Similar examples include The Ashes and The Holocaust, The closet, The Crown, The bends, The Last Supper, The Knowledge there's more I'm sure. - Jooler 21:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've never heard it called anything but "The Blitz", whereas "blitz" is a common verbal shorthand for blitzkrieg. --Carnildo 03:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, on grounds cited by Jooler above. The word "the" in this title and similar titles is not just an article; it can be thought of as a sort of demonstrative adjective. Which blitz? The blitz. Doops | talk 05:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. The RM is technically justifiable by a strict reading of the current policy; but as Jooler demonstrates, current practice differs in many such cases, and I think that broadly speaking, that practice is more sensible. I'd suggest that the pertinent policy be reviewed, with a view to making the two coincide better. Alai 02:21, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Francis Schonken 11:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Not voting, but following Alai's suggestion I added a third point to the "convention" of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), specifying this kind of case. I couldn't find a simple wording, so please have a look and adapt if necessary. --Francis Schonken 08:46, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Example in guideline adapted, and makes clear that "The Blitz", not different in meaning from "Blitz", could not be seen as an application of the guideline addition, so this time I'm voting. --Francis Schonken 11:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

While I recognize and support the convention, this particular incident is almost always referred to (so far as I've experienced) as "The Blitz". Oberiko 13:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

What about cases like the London Blitz, the Coventry Blitz? (do a Google search to see how common this constructon is --Philip Baird Shearer 23:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Google proves nothing. You will find more hits for the The London Times (sic). Few people in the real world call it the London Blitz. It's almost always "The Blitz" (unqualifed) - and anyway this article is about the Blitz in Britain and not just London. cf. Re:Google cf "The holocaust" - "Nazi Holocaust" Jooler 23:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I did not say that Google proved anything, although 70,000 hits shows "London Blitz" is in common usage. What I was doing was showing you that "Blitz" can and is used without the definite article and will be about the German aerial bombardment of the UK. How about uses such as: "In 1944 there was a doodlebug blitz on London"? --Philip Baird Shearer 00:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Well that just proves the point - because "The Blitz" specifically refers to the aerial bombardment during 1940-1941. The V1 (doodlebug) and V2 attacks against London are not "The Blitz" any more than the aerial bombardment of Baghdad (the 'Blitz of Baghdad') are. Jooler 06:26, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I would question your dating as I personally would also include the later attacks as the little blitz. But that does not remove the issue that the word Blitz on its own means intensive German aerial bombardment campaign of Britain. It does not have another meaning in English and so the definate article is not needed for disimbaguation purposes. Philip Baird Shearer 16:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

You question my dating?! Read the frigging article for goodness sake. "The blitz" is 1940-1941 and not 1944-1945. Jooler 22:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

As you'd expect. The naming convention is not inclusive enough and needs to be refined to include cases such as this where the definitie article makes the subject something that it would not be if the definite article was excluded. Similar examples include The Ashes and The Holocaust, The closet, The Crown, The bends, The Last Supper, The Knowledge there's more I'm sure. - Jooler 21:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• • Comment. Some of these examples are more pressing and convincing than others. Personally I'd be in favour of the-inclusion in cases where "" and "The " refer to substantiatively different things (regardless of whether those things happen to both have separate articles on WP). See the Talk: page of the cited policy. Alai 22:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

In all the cases you give there is a common meaning for the words listed, so the use of a definative article helps define a specific case. Please explain to me another English language meaning for the word Blitz, because to date there are none listed on the disambiguation page. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

You'll note I suggested, "regardless of whether those things happen to both have separate articles on WP", which is what disambig pages are for.

n. 1. 1. A blitzkrieg.

2. A heavy aerial bombardment.

2. An intense campaign: a media blitz focused on young voters.

3. Football. A sudden charge upon the quarterback by one or more of the linebackers or defensive backs when the ball is snapped. Also called red-dog.

v.tr. 1. To subject to a blitz.

2. Football. To rush (the quarterback) in a blitz.

v.intr. Football. To carry out a blitz.

Alai 04:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The argument you are putting forward is that any phrase for example "United Kingdom" because it usually has "The" in front of it should have it included in the title. Are you realy suggesting that the title of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should be move to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" if not why not? Philip Baird Shearer

That's not "my argument" at all. "ashes" "knowledge" "blitz" "bends"- Those words mean little in isolation, bt put the definite article infront of them and what do you get?. Jooler 06:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

What does the word blitz mean apart from the bombing of Britain by Germany? Philip Baird Shearer 16:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I just gave you an example above of Baghdad blitz. But in other contexts... how about ...

• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+blitzed+through+the+job%22
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+got+blitzed+last+night%22
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22blitz+it+in+the+microwave%22
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22blitzed+the+quarterback%22
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22blitzed+it+in+the+blender%22
• http://www.google.com/search?q=%22surrounded+by+a+media+blitz%22
  • Jooler 22:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

... and in response to your direct question to me, above, I gave you enough copied-and-pasted definitions of same, that Houghton Mifflin Company are surely getting ready to sue. Do you then agree with the principle I suggested? Or is this a blind alley? Alai 02:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

All the examples that you give are derived from the main meaning from the bombing of Britain during the war and in MHO they not justify the violation of Misplaced Pages policy guidlines: "Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Avoid the definite article ("the") and the indefinite article ("a"/"an") at the beginning of the page name". What do you think is the point of guidlines if they are not addeared to unless there is a very good reason for nt doing so, and you have not come up with one other usage of Blitz as a noun which makes it necessary to put the definite article infront of the word Blitz. Philip Baird Shearer 12:25, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

There are also a few web usages of the phrase "the blitz" which are not direct links to the bombing of Britian by Germany (three of the firt ten returned by a google.co.uk seach weightsradio station). By the logic which has been expressed here then the page "the Blitz" would have to become a disambiguation page. Clearly no one is suggesting that, but the logic used in the defence of "The Blitz" against Misplaced Pages guidelines would dictate it. Philip Baird Shearer 12:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard it called anything but "The Blitz", whereas "blitz" is a common verbal shorthand for blitzkrieg. --Carnildo 03:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

"Blitz" is not usually a shorthand for Blitzkrieg. Philip Baird Shearer 18:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)