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::::::I did not intend it to be a poem. I put each clause on a separate line, to make the sentence easier to read. I am still waiting for PMAnderson to disambiguate the expression, and to explain how a hyphen after "specially" makes a difference.
::::::I did not intend it to be a poem. I put each clause on a separate line, to make the sentence easier to read. I am still waiting for PMAnderson to disambiguate the expression, and to explain how a hyphen after "specially" makes a difference.
::::::-- ] (]) 21:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::-- ] (]) 21:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
*Manderson, all style guides are bound to be both descriptive and prescriptive. Now, tell me, as a child were you thrashed regularly by your father for disobedience? I'm trying to work out exactly why you have such a bee in your bonnet about rules. ] ] 00:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal to deprecate and remove images that say 'this is not an image please add one'
I see lots of pictures that say "Replace this image". For example see in Ann Robinson. There is nothing in the images section of the MOS about them. I propose the following text:
Articles should not contain images/text stating that there is no image and/or whose purpose is to invite editors to add an image. If such images are present, they should be deleted. This applies to "Replace this image male.svg" or "Replace this image female.svg"
Strong support—They look dreadful in their grey complexity; they make the article look perpetually unfinished; they push the assumption that an article can't be good unless it has an image; there are better ways of encouraging WPians to locate suitable images than defiling the very top of an article. I can see why the practice was started in good faith, but in retrospect it looks like a bad misjudgement. Such encouragement should be an important role of WikiProjects. Tony(talk)13:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Support. They look bad, push useful information further down the screen, and if anything probably encourage people to upload non-free images (people who know about Misplaced Pages's image use policy are also intelligent enough to know that an article doesn't have an image, and what to do about it, without being told). And the idea that we should discourage adding these things but not allow the removal existing ones is thinking at its muddledest.--Kotniski (talk) 15:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Support removal because new editors often imitate existing style rather than consulting the MOS, and also I think most if not all editors of a website know that an image improves a biography, so these placeholders are not useful. Darkspots (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't occur to them them that it is people like them who provide photos and they don't know how to upload/add them.Genisock2 (talk) 16:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
SupportAll of Misplaced Pages can be improved. There's no point in plastering pages with big flags attesting to this. This is a good article, but we're going to scream in your face that it can be improved. Punch the monkey to improve Misplaced Pages! Such self-references make good-quality articles look like they come from an amateur website with those awful “under construction” graphics. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-10 20:01 z
Support. They look awful. No image at all would be better in every case. This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog; these are put up largely for editors but the vast majority of users are only readers. They still have to look at these ugly placeholders. Britannica doesn't use imagery like this and neither should we. --John (talk) 01:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
And also because they don't like their articles to look like ass. Neither should we. These are the equivalent of "under construction" signs and they make our articles look ugly and amateurish. --John (talk) 19:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Support deprecation and weakly support removal of existing imaged commands. We're always under construction and editors who find images will look whether they are needed. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
+S Someone should find out who came up with this idea, and give that editor a barnstar for their noble intentions. But now we've tried the idea and seen that the costs outweigh the benefits. Let's delete them. Ling.Nut11:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose as proposed. No need to make tens of thousands of unnecessary edits just to remove these, and I they might actually prompt users to upload the images as intended (off the cuff unqualified statement). –xeno (talk) 12:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Consensus was not to mass remove them, just to discourage future use, no need to make all these edits. MBisanz12:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose per xeno. Users might see a lack of an image as an agreement not to have one; an explicit "hey, you there, put a proper picture here!" encourages additions. Prince of Canada12:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose. Absolutely not - the last thing we need is to take a wishy-washy statement about "some people don't like using these" and transform it into a blanket ban. Doing this would not help the encyclopedia one whit. Shimgray | talk | 12:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Placeholders have been independently invented by a number of groups (:No_Photo_Available.svg for example) which suggest a common need and a fair degree of acceptance.Genisock2 (talk) 13:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - They encourage image submission, which we want, and they don't exactly trash the aesthetic either. Why delete them? I don't think the MOS debate about whether they should be used was publicized widely enough, I'd like to see that misguided change reversed. Avruch13:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: I still think we should be using these templates — but that is a different discussion — I don't see any reason to go around removing them, no. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:28, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose: As long as we encourage readers to become editors through cleanup templates on the main article (as opposed to talk), then we should be asking for help whenever we can. --MASEM15:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
So would you support a message displayed automatically at the top of all articles, saying something like "YOU can improve this article by adding sourced relevant information or free images". It would be less intrusive than these placeholder images, and not be limited to one specific type of "help" on one specific type of article.--Kotniski (talk) 15:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
No, that would not be specific enough to be useful, and would still require a large number of edits to alter the current situation. Leaving it the way it is with images in infoboxes (where a free image will go) is fine. MBisanz15:33, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
So why that specific request for help? Why is it so likely that readers will have free pictures of people? Or why is it so important that we request those but not other types of image or information? And getting rid of the existing placeholders doesn't necessarily require large numbers of edits (even if you consider that a problem) - it could be done at the same time as bots perform other cleanup.--Kotniski (talk) 15:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose per Masem and Shimgray. The images themselves could definitely be improved though (more abstract, less "western" as someone said). -- Quiddity (talk) 18:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose There are certainly a lot of articles where the use of such images are pointless and feel free to remove those on a case by case basis, but even though they are discouraged there are still situations where they can be useful and so a complete "bad and delete" policy is not helpful. For example if a lot of people independently keep adding unsuitable non-free images to an article whenever the previous set gets deleted it can be useful to put up a placeholder to let them know that only free licensed images are wanted. Some of the main arguments against image placeholders in the past where that not all articles need images in the first place, but in the case of an article where fans will upload any old image they find on google if they find the article without one I think adding a "free image only please" placeholder makes a lot of sense even if it is generally discouraged. --Sherool(talk)22:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
But the placedholders we have don't emphasize "free image only", so I still don't see why you want to retain them.--Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
So how about we just edit the image to say "please replace me with a free image"? Or whatever the verbiage needs to be. One edit handles every instance of the image being used. Prince of Canada10:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Well according to the comments above, the verbiage would need to be more along the lines of "please do NOT replace me with an image unless you have a free one".--Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
The specific verbiage isn't that important at the moment, and I leave it to wiser minds than mine to come up with the specifics anyway. Point being, if we replaced with (or edited the current) something that actively encourages people to upload a new (free, legal, etc) image, there's a net benefit to the project. Or, why not try it for a month (arbitrary time period), and see what happens to articles, how often new images are placed, how often they're copyvios, etc. Prince of Canada11:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - what Avruch said. We want more people to contribute, not less. I'd be interested to know from the OTRS people who handle the photosubmission queue if people mention these when they submit pictures. Mr.Z-man06:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I note that none of the opposers has even attempted to answer my question - why do we scream at people to contribute these particular images as opposed to the many other types of images and information they are just as likely to be able to contribute? --Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree that there is no reason to limit this to people, but this is a major focus because it's where WP:NFCC#1 is most commonly abused. I would support (and be willing to create) similar placeholders for buildings, rivers, lakes, mountains, household appliances, etc. if there was enough demand. However at first glance most inanimate topics appear to already have a free photo, while most people do not. — CharlotteWebb10:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Well yes, because there aren't so many free images about, which makes it all the less likely that anyone will be able to contribute one, and all the more likely that they will be provoked into contributing non-free ones. So it seems that bios are actually the last kind of articles that we should wish to deface in this way. --Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
The thing about people is that people tend to have pics of them or they do not for buildings and other fixed objects people we get better results by finding existing wikipedians who live near them.Geni20:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't follow. People don't tend to have free pics of famous people very often; and "finding existing WPans who live near them" could be done with exactly the same type of placeholders.--Kotniski (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Your argument is illogical, "we don't ask people to contribute everything else, so we shouldn't ask for these" - why does it have to be an all or nothing thing? I'd actually support asking for more. We probably have at least (I haven't actually done the math) 10 readers for every editor. If we could get even 0.1% of those readers to contribute something we'd be much better off. Mr.Z-man17:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
So after every sentence in Misplaced Pages we should write "if you can improve or add to this sentence then please click the edit button and do so"? That's what your argument leads to. I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for help, just that it should be done in an unobtrusive way, and without irrational emphasis on certain types of help rather than others.--Kotniski (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
No, I didn't say that and my argument does not necessarily lead to that. If you can't argue rationally, please don't ask others to try and refute your points. That's like saying raising the legal blood alcohol limit for drivers will lead to a 5000% increase in drunk driving accidents because everyone will drive drunk all the time. You continue to make this an all-or-nothing thing - It doesn't have to be. Though, we do already put inline tags on particularly problematic sentences.
How can we ask for help in an "unobtrusive" way that will still have results? If we put things like this on the talk page, almost no one's going to see them, which defeats the purpose. Would you object to a "This article needs an image" cleanup tag? Mr.Z-man19:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
because your core claim is fundimentaly false. we ahve stub notices and cleanup templates (and placeholders for buildings and there is one around for warships).Geni20:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
What core claim? Stub notices are OK; they go out of the way at the end of an article. Cleanup templates, where appropriate, aren't bad, since as well as asking for help they usefully inform the reader that this article isn't really up to standard (as do stub templates in a way). Again, why buildings particularly? Why warships particularly? Why not simply have one unobtrusive (that's the main thing) object to be placed on any article that lacks an image? Like the "coordinates missing" thing that appears out of the way at the top? We don't need to do it with a placeholder that occupies exactly the same position and amount of space as our hoped-for image is going to.
because useing different images means we get a degree of auto categorization and there are a number of article where it is safe to assume that there will never be a free pic.Genisock2 (talk) 16:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - I think I share at least some responsibility/credit for these images coming into existence (a suggestion I made once on a mailing list). The hope was that we could correct a significant lack we had of photos of living persons. We can disagree about whether the approach was good, about whether it was successful, about whether we need to continue to add them. But I can't see any point whatsoever in immediately removing them everywhere. –RHolton≡– 17:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
You should perhaps drop by Chris Cunningham's talk page and ask him directly, he's the one that said that. I could not find anything either. –xeno (talk) 13:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
From what I recall, the use is discouraged on dead people's biographies if they were not living when photography was widely available thus an image unlikely. -- Banjeboi22:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
From the archives:
Stats. Of the first twenty images linked to the female placeholder, four are deceased. Gia Carangi, Kathleen Kenyon, Ruth Gordon, Sophie Germain. Three are twentieth-century figures who died in the 1970s or 1980s. One (Germain) has been dead 1831. If you're arguing in favor of the placeholders on the grounds that they help educate editors about "fair use"/"free" images, I will argue that in these four cases (20% of the sample) they are actually misleading editors about what kinds of images are usable. Now, the proponents will say that the guidelines discourage the use of the placeholder on any articles other than living person bios; however, the practice is somewhat less clear.Northwesterner1 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
The photosubmission queue on OTRS pretty much takes care of the second issue, especially if we remove the upload link (it should point to commons anyway). And removing the placeholders isn't going to prevent a "a determined copyright violator." Mr.Z-man17:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Why ask?
Kotniski demands to know why we should ask specifically for editors to contribute pictures of people.
It's obviously silly to tag every sentence in Misplaced Pages with "needs improvement". But when an entire article or section is missing a large amount of information, we tag it as a stub, or grade the article "Start" class. It is actually quite useful to do this - people working with WikiProjects or who just have a topical interest can survey a collection of related articles, see which ones need attention, and focus their energies more productively on filling large gaps instead of making minor tweaks to more mature articles.
When there is a specific sentence or paragraph missing in a relatively mature article, I do usually leave a note on the talk page with an {{expand}} request. I think it's important for editors to point out every deficiency that they notice and cannot correct themselves. Otherwise, it might never even occur to editors more knowledgeable than they or with more free time that something is missing. I see this happening where someone will make a generic "expand" request, and other editors will come along and say, "I don't see anything missing, I'm removing this tag unless you can be more specific." Whether that takes the form of "huge chunks of information missing, should be obvious, tagging as stub" or "here's an outline of what's missing from this article" or "needs date of birth". Specific requests for expansion are useful work that advance the project. It takes time and mental effort to find deficiencies, and doing so makes other editors more productive.
Requests for specific graphics are even more important than requests for text contributions. There's a much higher barrier to contribution, given the need to know how to find or make digital photos, and how to upload them. It's much more likely that someone will contribute photos across many articles than each article will get a photo from a different editor. A celebrity photographer, whether professional or amateur, might have a collection of photos, so it would be useful to generate a list of celebrity articles that are missing photos. But fans of particular celebrities are also likely to be reading the article, and they are more likely to have met the person at a convention or performance event. A personal friend might have a photo sitting around, including of someone who might be deceased. Even if someone has a photo of the subject of the article, it might not occur to them to upload it unless asked. And they might not know how, but having a click-through link lowers the barrier to doing so.
So I'm strongly in favor of asking for these contributions; I think the remaining question is, what is the best way to ask? One viable alternative is a template like {{reqphoto}}, which I use quite frequently, not only for biographies but for geographic places, foods, and so on. It goes on the talk page - it's not "in your face" but people can still stumble across it and it's still available to people who want to take a survey across many articles and who know where to look. The advantage of putting the request on the article itself is that it's considerably more visible. That can be bad if your primary concern is that articles have a "finished" appearance even if they are still a work in progress. But it can be good if your attitude is, "Glad you noticed; if it bothers you so much, help us fix it!" In my experience, notices on the article page tend to get dealt with a lot faster than notices on the talk page, probably because of the far superior visibility.
Is there any MoS guidance on use of a stop to end each item in a list?
I am thinking of the See Also section of an article as an example where I am noticing a tendency to put stops at the end of each line, even with short items that are not sentences. Is there any MoS guidance on this (I have looked, but not thoroughly)? If not, should there be? (It seems to me to be an undesirable affectation.) Globbet (talk) 01:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Generally speaking, stops should be only used at the end of a sentence. I can see three distinct cases here:
the whole list is part of a sentence
Punctuate as if part of a sentence; e.g.
I need to remember to pack
my toothbrush;
my hat; and
my ferret.
a list of sentences
Punctuate each entry as the sentence that it is; e.g.
It is usual in today's English to keep full stops to a minimum. For example, 50 years ago the BBC was written B.B.C., today it has no full stops. I also query the use of full stops when writing U.S. Should it not be US or better still USA as leaving off the reference to America is an arrogance that presumes that presumes there are not other united states in the world? Brenmar (talk) 06:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Brenmar
Dots are usually redundant; their use should be minimised. Some American writers still insist on "you dot es dot", regrettably. Tony(talk)12:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
In some contexts it is easier to do a computer search for "U.S." rather than "US" because if the search is not case-sensitive, the latter is the same as the word "us". --Gerry Ashton (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
That is true, but one would search for "US" plus another item such as "health system". Hmmm ... that would yield nothing, probably—just joking; actually, it's very successful on google, with WP's articles (which use the dots in their titles) the top two of 52.4 million hits. Looks like cyberspace has caught up the the dotless way. Tony(talk)13:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
MOS:DAB is specific that thou shalt not end entries with a period. For consistency, other list-like pages or sections should do the same (or else dab pages should conform to the general standard). SpinningSpark16:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. MOSDAB has hardened into a most unfortunate bunch of silly rules; but its requirements should not make Misplaced Pages look stupid. We have enough articles that do that already. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson20:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to impose nothing; I support the current option to use or not use dots for "US", but encourage all editors not to use them. On the other point (below), US editors apparently object to the dots in "U.S.A", and indeed even to the use of the triple abbreviation in most instances: see MOSNUM. Tony(talk)03:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the answer, Tony, is to refer to USA. That way makes it clear and avoids the arrogance of the Americans in thinking they are the ones with united states. Even presidential candidates call it the "United States of America" Brenmar (talk) 22:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Brenmar
List items are already clearly marked by bullets. Adding semicolons or periods is useless decoration, as would be adding colons to boldfaced headings. Periods should only be added as separators if the list items are mixed fragments and sentences, or short paragraphs. The same thing goes for image captions, whose nature is clearly indicated by their relationship to the image and enclosing border.
Like any functional product, typography is degraded by redundant elements, and it is not common practice to use them. —MichaelZ. 2008-10-25 00:33 z
So - general agreement, as I expected, but where in the MoS maze does it say, or of it doesn't, where should it say something like 'don't clutter lists up with misguidedly prissy punctuation'? Globbet (talk) 00:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried fixing Misplaced Pages:MOS#Bulleted_and_numbered_lists to remove the unnecessary punctuation and conform to WP:LIST and common practice, after asking for comments here and posting a project-wide request for comments, but my change was reverted by Tony1. -- Beland (talk) 17:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I didn't see an opposing view stated here by Tony1, so I have changed the relevant section, along with some rephrasing. Our table of contents is a prime example of final punctuation being omitted for a numbered list of non-sentence elements. --Zigger«º»04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason why no one stopped your crusade for imposed non-uniformity? Let's just stop being asses for a while and let's work to maximize uniformity. I listen to those who make constructive criticism, and when reasoning is explained, things gets done. I'm building a template that should cover 95%+ of citations and produce consistent output. If you don't like it, don't use it. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 05:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, I'm an ass? Where's the civility patrol when you need it? ;-) Look... several folks have flatly mentioned that your template is flatly unwanted. You flatly ignore them. I won't bother to speculate why. You aren't working within consensus, you're ignoring it. Ling.Nut05:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
We're both guilty of being asses here. And while several folks mentionned WP:IDONTLIKEIT (and arguments of the WP:IDONTLIKEIT type can duly be ignored, as they are not substantiated), several others supported the idea (, , , , , , , , , , , and the list goes on). As far as working with people go, just about everything that was raised has been addressed (I could offer diffs, but {{unicite}} is so different than its original form (since you know, I listen to people who argue with arguments) that this it'll probably be more confusing that anything to understand what the complaints were about). There's very little left to do to have something close to a "final product". The template generalizes the features to all templates covered, and streamlines pretty much everything. What's left to tackle is thing about how to format the quotes, and how to format original publishing dates, and to implement harvard referencing and COiNS. If you have a specific problem with a specific output, then I can address it. See for example , , , , , and a lot more. If you're simply throwing WP:IDONTLIKEIT however, I can't do much for you.Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 06:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Please don't lump me together with you in this respect; I'm not being an ass. And apparently you can't do much for anyone, since you won't listen to anyone. No one has made IDONTLIKEIT args. They've said your template is awkward and unnecessary, plus it leads toward unwonted and unwanted standardization. You don't listen. Ling.Nut06:30, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
"If you don't like it, don't use it." Since you have already stated your position is to deprecate existing citation templates, people who prefer the other templates to yours will absolutely need to complain sometime. Similarly, because some people who see a problem with cite template proliferation disagree with this proposed solution, they may see it as contributing to the problem & will need to complain sometime.
I agree that we can wait a bit longer to complain, though; if you want to make an unused & redundant template, more power to you. --Karnesky (talk) 16:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Then complain later. There's a million possible ways to do things. Bots is one of them. Replacing template code is another. I'm not interested in debating the specifics right now. If you have something constructive to say as far as format output is concerned, then go right ahead. You can continue to sing the oppose song if you want, but it's neither very productive, nor very relevant right now. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 18:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I have met a lot of arrogant Wikipedians in my time. Congratulations. You're not #1, but you're up there in the top ranks. :-) Ling.Nut07:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Are you, or someone you know or associate with, gonna TfD a whole slew of templates when you're done, Sir or Madam?
Depending on how unicite is implemented, maybe, maybe not. If the solution calls for TfDing 3 of them then 3 of them will be TfD'd. If the solution involves replacing the code of the templates, then there won't be a need for TfD. I'm not a fortune teller, and it's pointless to argue about the specifics of incomplete things. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 03:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me go straight to the heart of my concern.
You make a template. La de da. "Ignore it if you don't like it" you say. And more la de da. Oh. But then the people who think that deleting things is somehow contributing to the encyclopedia set upon every template in existence, aside from the One True template. TfD won't complain, 'cause the One True Template (allegedly) covers all bases. Mass deletions ensue. "Oh, it's OK" you say "Our template has so many options. Nothing is missing." The first problem is that you won't have all the options, but your bros will delete things not covered by your Swiss Army template. Oh. But then. Then the folks who say "Eeeew, those icky-poo Harvard thingies! We should standardize!" will start removing options from the One True Template. So much easier than TfD! Bye Bye harvard! Bye Bye LSA! Bye Bye... everything but footnotes. Conformity ensues.
And don't forget that Martians will also invade earth if unicite is ever used! Seriously, there's not one damned shred of evidence for any of the apocalyptic scenarios you just put forth. Now you say that "I won't have all the options". Tell me then, which options are missing? Because I've reviewed every templates in there and there are I think only two things missing right now. The first and the most important one missing is the support for the {{harvnb}} and similar templates, and the other is the support of COiNS. There might be some features from {{citation}} not yet implemented, but they will either make it in {{unicite}} or {{unicite}} simply won't deprecate {{citation}}. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 03:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
If what is being talked about here is the use of Template:Unicite, then I am adamantly opposed to using it personally. It has far too many parameters to deal with each time I want to make a simple citation. It would mean deleting the majority of fields as irrelevant upon each use. Either that, or people would leave the unused fields empty but in place, which will unnecessarily bulk up an article. Am I understanding correctly what is being discussed here? Personally, I find the current templates quite satisfactory and easy to use. {{unicite}} makes my head spin. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
HeadBomb said "let's work to maximize uniformity". Essentially, my concern is that this is a slow, stealth move to impose one and only one cite format as a no-other-option-allowed standard across Misplaced Pages. Ling.Nut02:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Well if you can you any other citation template, you can use {{unicite}} just as easily. If you can write {{cite book |author=] |title=How to Build your Life |year=1969 |publisher=Kettle Publishing |location=San Jose, CA |isbn=1-2345-8765-x}}, then you can just as easily type {{unicite |author=] |title=How to Build your Life |year=1969 |publisher=Kettle Publishing |location=San Jose, CA |isbn=1-2345-8765-x}}. If you can write {{cite web |title=Sid Meier's Pirate – A Review |author=Matt Brody |url=http://www.gamerbrody.com/SMReview |year=2002}}, then you can just as easily write {{unicite|title=Sid Meier's Pirate – A Review |author=Matt Brody |url=http://www.gamerbrody.com/SMReview |year=2002}}. Documentation is very very far from being complete or in final form, so don't pay much attention to that. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 03:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Ling, this hostility is unwarranted and unhelpful. You can add me to the list of Headbomb's supporters, but no one is trying to foist this upon other editors. The idea is simply to remove redundancies. The complaints about being too cumbersome, et al, and how the different elements would interact are being addressed. There's no point in getting up in arms. I for one would look forward to using the template in the articles I edit; no one is forcing you to do anything. So perhaps you can vent your frustration elsewhere; you're not helping, and you're most certainly hurting the discussion. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs03:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
It is not even required that any template be used in any of the guidelines. I take this to mean that maximum flexibility is valued in this regard. I used to dislike the Harvard, but lately I have seen its usefulness in specific situations and in certain types of articles. I hope our goal keep our options and and encourage flexibility. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Templates are extremely useful for linking the in-test cites to the full references on the bottom of the page. The option to simply not use templates, while real, is a disadvantage in this respect.
As for all other replies... yawn. I will have the tiny, tiny pleasure of being able to be the one saying "I told you so" within a year. Not a pleasure, though, not really. Ling.Nut06:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Replace {{unicite}} with a complex template mapping most forms back into the {{citation}} engine. That way, Headbomb could still use it, but the formatting would look reasonable, and if someone wants to do something weird, it can still be done. (I noticed his ISBN link is broken, also.) Most of the specific modifications he's made mean that people using it would have to change their formats in order to map into this format. — Arthur Rubin(talk)18:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
There's a couple of misconceptions in there. No one would have to change "their" format to this one, that would be automatic, and all the inputs would be covered. There would be no transition period. Now as far as mapping the old template to {{citation}} goes, what you'd have to do is to make {{citation}} into something like {{unicite}}. Well I've built {{unicite}}, and now we just have to work out the kinks of it. We're nearly there, and if people could simply comment on the output above, we could move on and fix the problem of non-uniform outputs in all the various citation templates. And the ISBN link isn't broken, it's just a crap ISBN that's given, so you don't get anything. Try a valid ISBN and you'll get somewhere. Headbomb {κοντριβς – WP Physics} 01:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
They would have to change their format if they wanted to mix-and-match different template and manual citations. If this {{unicite}} replaced {{citation}} and all {{cite XXX}} templates (and you have already singled out some that you don't intend to replace & others have been vocal that they don't want any replaced), you'd "only" have to change the formatting of manually-entered references. Unfortunately, I see no way for a bot to do that. This is why adhering to a pre-existing format more methodically may be a good idea. {{citation/core}} already does some of what {{unicite}} does. Because there is an active parallel effort to begin to use that as a backend to the {{cite XXX}} templates, I don't know what it lacks that you'd need for {{unicite}}, but I would imagine that it could be amended & you can transform {{unicite}} into a more meta-template, that let the popular {{citation/core}} do the formatting. --Karnesky (talk) 15:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) this discussion is bizarre but -- as I see it -- for different reasons. I can well imagine why some people might prefer the plethora of {cite xyz}s, and I can see the advantages of a unified template. But I don't see why they can't have the cake and eat it too. That is, the various {cite xyz}s can be wrappers/redirects to a meta template like unicite or citation/core, and still continue to be available for those who prefer individual {cite xyz}s. Whats wrong with having both? Is there any reason why {cite xyz}s have to be deprecated? I think not. The output would be the same, so who cares what editors type in wikitext?! -- Fullstop (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
It would be if it {{unicite}} didn't have intentional differences from all of the (cite xyz)s. There would be some small system overhead if due to the additional template renditions. but that seems mininal. The difference between pages=5 and pages=p. 5, which unicite seems to have lost, can probably best be dealt with by an additional translation template, and there are probably some other adjustments that may need to be made. — Arthur Rubin(talk)02:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Identity
"A transgender, transsexual or genderqueer person's latest preference of name and pronoun should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (e.g., she fathered her first child). " - This goes against the factual encyclopaedic nature of Misplaced Pages, although popular western media currently promotes the acceptance of transgender and transsexuals as belonging to their chosen rather than natural gender, this is not a globally supported position and creates an opinion bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.8.121.116 (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I just find it retarded that we're shoehorning political correctness into biological facts. If you're born with a penis between your legs, you're a man and you're a he. If you're born with a vagina between your legs, you're a woman and you're a she. Being post-op doesn't turn a man into a woman or vice-versa, you only have their appearance. These are facts, not opinions, and they have nothing to do with opinions. "Original genders" should be used rather, nonsensical pronoun usage being another of the reasons. I'm about as liberal as it gets, but an encyclopedia referring to men and woman (whether transsexuals, post-op, genderqueer, etc. or not) as women and men is pure and simple POV-pushing. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 05:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually both biological and linguistic gender is quite a lot more complex than whether or not one has a penis or not, not to mention the identity issue which is even more complex. For example some people are born with neither penis nor vagina and doctors chose which gender to make them them and if a ship can be a she then why can't a transgendered ex-male? The only sane guideline is to refer to people the way in which they prefer, particularly for example within biographies of living persons that should treat all people with respect. I fail to see the specific POV that is being pushed by calling someone who has chosen to become a woman "she" other than of course the view point of respecting peoples rights and feelings. ·Maunus·ƛ·05:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
And what do call people for whom we have no chromosomal data ()probably the great majority? Or people with downs syndrome or other chromosomal disorders?·Maunus·ƛ·06:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Your argument only works if we assume that linguistic gender maps directly to biological sex, which just isn't the case. What pronoun someone uses depends on what gender identity they associate with the subject (not what they know about their chromosomes) and since Misplaced Pages is supposed to be neutral and can't have an opinion of its own, it has to mirror someone else's. Who should that be, if not the person in question? Ilkali (talk) 21:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Why are we endeavoring to decide these issues? We should do what we do elsewhere: use what our sources use, with greater weight on more recent sources. By and large, this will be what the subjects themselves choose; where it is not, there is something unusual happening, which should be made clear to the reader anyway. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree that "gender depends on chromosome type alone" is just one POV. Gender#Gender_taxonomy lists 9 different potential criteria. Certainly there are people that will complain about "political correctness" POV if anything other than birth sex (if there is a clear one) is used to refer to someone, and other people who will complain about being insulting and holding anti-transgender POV if anything other than what the person chooses to be called is used. I think most professional news outlets these days simply go by whatever gender the public persona has. If a transsexual has legally changed their name and is dressing and living as a woman, they use "she" for the present persona and "he" when talking about the pre-transition persona. A casual transvestite might be a "he" when going to work during the day, but "she" when dressed up at night. Likewise for fictional characters - Peter Pan is referred to as "he", even if a woman is playing the part. I don't think this practice is necessarily an endorsement of political correctness, it's mostly a "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" philosophy. -- Beland (talk) 17:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
National varieties of English
I understand the reasons for and agree with the philosophy behind the MoS approach to WP:ENGVAR, but suggest an addition. Where a topic is itself a word that is spelt differently in different varieties of English, I propose that the MoS be updated to specify that alternative spellings be given alongside the first instance of the word in the article. Many people will be guided by the spelling used in Misplaced Pages, and will not necessarily realise that it may be spelt incorrectly for their region—particularly for medical, technical or otherwise specialised terms. Bleeding, for example, does this well in relation to 'haemorrhage' and 'hemorrhage'. Hematochezia, however, despite the fact that 'haematochezia' redirects to it, makes no mention of the alternative spelling and may lead people in Britain and Australia astray.—Zoe Ocean 10:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoe Buchanan (talk • contribs)
The guideline already says “If the subject of the page has a common abbreviation or more than one name, the abbreviation (in parenthesis) and each additional name should be in boldface on its first appearance”. Seems more than enough. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-06 18:03 z
The other day I ran into a "See also" section in a category, linking to a series of articles. I'd never seen that before, and, as it was ugly, a POV-magnet, and undermined the whole purpose of categories, I removed it. However, the person who added the "See also" section, User:Timeshifter reverted me, and insisted it was common practice, found in many categories. Having never seen that before in 4.5 years of editing Misplaced Pages, I asked him to show me examples, but he refused, repeatedly. I then investigated, and discovered that "See also" sections did exist in about 30 categories; all added in the last week by User:Timeshifter. I've removed these additions from the categories for now, and brought the issue here for further discussion. Thoughts? Jayjg 00:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The "see also" sections I found were not linking to a series of articles, but to a series of categories. I think that in some cases it may be helpful to point users toward other categories of interest that are related but are neither a parent nor a daughter of the category that is being viewed. I sometimes see this practice in the Commons, but not much on Misplaced Pages. --Itub (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The "see also" should be a semi-related cat (as noted above), or as links as part of the category introduction. But I agree that we shouldn't be using "see also" for overkill.
One thing in particular is to prevent duplicate (and incorrect) categorisation. Sometimes people will categorise something not realising that there is a more specific category. It's a hindrance to navigation (the point of categories.) The "see also" helps prevent that.
That said, in looking at some of the "see also" sections that you've removed, it looks like some of them could possibly have been apparopriately categorised into one or more parent cats. - jc3711:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
What's the point of hiding parts of the MOS and then turning reading and editing them into a treasure hunt!? In the WP:MOS#First sentences section:
I click the section “edit” link, but there's nothing to edit, except some opaque and unfamiliar code
There are puzzling grey bars in the MOS section, with no indication of their function or content
But the grey bars have instructions on them, saying “Click "show" to display more content information.” What is “content information?” Why does clicking “show” in this sentence do nothing?
I see there is another tiny label on the grey bar which says “”—when I click it I see that secret MOS guidelines were hidden—why, to save paper?
This is a terrible interface for an unneeded function. We don't allow such obstruction to readers and editors in articles, we don't recommend it in the MOS, so we shouldn't degrade the MOS by incorporating this. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-06 18:30 z
I understand the intent, but the implementation reduces readability, and is impenetrable for editing (I haven't even given any thought to where to discuss changes to a guideline which appears in three places and has a fourth talk page). A simple link accomplishes exactly the same thing without the complications—and a bit more work could add a useful summary which could remain stable even if the details of the source guideline change. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-09 20:14 z
It appears to me that there are two separate issues here: First, whether to use transclude text to coordinate information that appears on more than one MOS page. Second, whether to use the show/hide option within transclude text. The second issue is discussed in the new #When to use hidden/collapsible sections below.
Turning to the first issue, I am a proponent of using transclude text. It is easy enough to say "have a central location and link to it," but the reality is that folks edit the page they are on regardless of whether there is a link. The result: Balkanization. Using transclude text solves that problem. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Locking the page would also solve this “problem” in the same way—by making it impossible for the average user to edit the page. Seriously—I tried to edit the section linked above, and I could not. I'm an administrator, and editor for four years. I can't adequately express how bad a “solution” for anything this is.
If you are a serious proponent, then please, let's examine what this does. Let's say I wanted to edit the quotation in the guideline which says “"Homer Simpson is a fictional character in the television series..."”, while I'm looking at Misplaced Pages:MOS#First sentences. The normal procedure would be this:
Click the “” link by the heading
Edit the text and click the “(Save page)” button
In comparison, here's what I have to do now:
Click the “” link by the heading
See that the edit text says “{{:Misplaced Pages:Lead section TT first sentence content}}{{:Misplaced Pages:Lead section TT first sentence format}}<!-- for more about this edit see WP:Transclude text -->”. I actually cut-and-pasted three page names from this, and didn't see my edit text there either. WTF?
Post a question here on the talk page
Wait at least three days (that's how long it's been so far, and no one has yet posted the answer)
What now?
Hm, 5 steps instead of 2, and it's still not done. If you think I'm doing something wrong here, then please outline the steps a novice editor would reasonably take to edit this section. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 00:01 z
You lost me at step three. It seems to me that step three would be go to the transclude text page you want to edit, step four would be click the “” link by the TRANSCLUDE TEXT heading, and step five would be make the change. SeeMisplaced Pages talk:Transclude text#Oy!.
A little more cumbersome? Perhaps. But the transclude text approach, if one allows oneself to become accustomed to it, seems to be a reasonable middle ground between uncontrolled Balkanization (with the result that pages conflict with one another) and locking MOS pages. Is it your position that style pages disagreeing with each other isn't a problem? If so, please take a look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Manual of StyleButwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The page I want to edit is WP:MOS, and the heading is “First sentences”. I didn't see any “TRANSCLUDE TEXT” heading. What is step 3, for someone who doesn't know the location of this secret page?
Seriously, I looked at the three pages mentioned in the wikitext by cutting and pasting them, and they didn't give me any clue. How do I edit this page?—MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 06:14 z
"If the subject of the page has a common abbreviation or more than one name, the abbreviation (in parenthesis) and each additional name should be in boldface on its first appearance."
How do we define what a 'common' abbreviation is? I've seen more than enough examples of these that appear to be made up on the spot. --neon white talk15:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
If the abbreviation is listed in a reputable dictionary, or in the case of an organization, used on the organization's web site, I think that would suffice. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I think the issue is with the idea of 'common'. It often seems to leads to original research with editors point to instances of usage to try and assert widespread usage, where as, if we were to follow the rules as WP:NEO, it would be a requirement to "cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term". --neon white talk12:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms does not clearly define its scope. From reading it, however, it is obvious that it cannot apply to proper names and abbreviations for proper names, because the kind of sources recommended by the neologism guideline, like dictionaries, provide very limited coverage of proper names. If we tried to apply the neologism guideline to proper names there would be many noteworthy people, places, and companies that we could not write about. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I think you're misunderstandiung the point, this isn't about the notability of subject or the existance of articles on them. It's about the sourcing of alternate names and abreviations for a subject. It has to be sourced somehow or it's original research. --neon white talk02:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Are there any more links to relevant discussions about hidden/collapsible sections?
The various hiding-templates often get used to hide content that some editors simply cannot agree on whether to display or not (see the "influences" sections in some Writer-infoboxes (e.g. William Gibson), the Ponte Vecchio experiment, the vertical navboxes linked above, etc). Is this a usage we want to encourage or discourage?
My general intuition is that hidden/collapsable sections should never be used except for navigation elements. The reason is to facilitate moving articles to print form - everything has to be fully expanded in print. Dcoetzee20:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree, while some dynamic content in articles would be nice, there's generally no reason to show/hide article text. Mr.Z-man21:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't know if this is within the scope of the question, but I think it's legitimate to hide the solutions of "puzzle" boxes, e.g. chess diagrams or colour vision tests. -- Philcha (talk) 21:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Until we have a way to show collapsed sections on non-standard browsers (eg text-to-speech) and for printing, collapsed sections should be avoided. --MASEM01:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
CSS can define separate rules for display and printing, so that's an internal technical matter. In the case I raised, it's all done via a template, so if someone defines a CSS class "hide when displayed, show when printed" it can be applied very easily.
I've never used a text-to-speech reader. Do these have options to speak hidden text? If not, that sounds like a deficiency that the suppliers should resolve.
In any case the cases I cited are chess diagrams and colour vision tests, which would be pretty unintelligible to text-to-speech readers. -- Philcha (talk) 08:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I would hope (though I'm not sure) that screen readers would just act as a browser with JS disabled (where all the text should show by default), though I'm not sure. Printing is still an issue though, AKAIK. Mr.Z-man16:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Screen readers should be fine (as collapsing is done by JS), but that's why printing fails; I asked this before and it's not just changing the media type for CSS; IIRC, JS will react independent of the CSS media setting, so if tables start collapsed on a page, they will stay collapsed when the page is parsed for printing. We should be avoiding any collapsed media until this can be (if ever) resolved, despite the fact it can really help a page with lots of secondary information. --MASEM16:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. I'm still not certain what the consensus is though; A few specific questions:
For hiding things like:
the "influences" sections in biographical-infoboxes as a standard practice (this information is not always duplicated within the article-text)
anything, just to avoid argument (entirely hidden infobox at Ponte Vecchio)
are we recommending against these practices? How strongly?
To which guideline/policy page would we add any sentences related to this? (and discuss further there)
Besides the printing and usability problems, there are isolated text overlap problems (e.g. Ant infobox).
I'm also concerned that some readers will completely tune-out links, because at a glance they look just like links, down the right edge of the page. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand the question: we already have a guideline (and I note that none of the pages linked above considered that it's already dealt with at MoS) ... do people just forget that we have a Manual of Style when they're off discussing Wiki-wide style issues on individual template pages?
Scrolling lists and boxes that toggle text display between hide and show are acceptable in infoboxes and navigation boxes, but should never be used in the article prose or references, because of issues with readability, accessibility, printing, and site mirroring. Additionally, such lists and boxes may not display properly in all web browsers.
Thank you! That's what I was looking for. It took 3 weeks to get that answer! And for the record, no, I haven't had time to read/reread all 200+ guideline pages recently...
On further analysis, it appears that section did not mention hidden-text, until you added it on Aug 27 2008. Please don't be condescending just because we don't all watchlist & scrutinize the same pages that you do... :)
"Scrolling lists" does not bring to my mind "hidden/collapsible sections". This information should be easier to find without continually reading, as you say, all 200+ guideline pages. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Hidden code - section break
I've copied this here to remind/reinforce the consensus that these really shouldn't be used, and to get all the relevant links in one place. The hiding code is still popping up all over the place (See two threads up for a start...).
Agree that MoS subsection title should be changed. I went over there looking for "hidden sections" and could not find it. Had to come back here and find link to Misplaced Pages:MOS#Scrolling lists; I never would have guessed that "hidden sections", or "boxes that toggle text display between hide and show" as it is called there, would be under Scrolling lists. If that information were not here, I never would have found it. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I would hope (though I'm not sure) that screen readers would just act as a browser with JS disabled (where all the text should show by default)
Some text-based web browsers do ignore JavaScript, but the most common screen reader (JAWS) actually uses MSIE to interpret the web page, so all Javascript applies and hidden text is hidden (JAWS also ignores style sheets aimed at screen readers, contrary to the standards).
. . . the cases I cited are chess diagrams and colour vision tests, which would be pretty unintelligible to text-to-speech readers
Unless we are experts in the subject, we shouldn't make any assumptions about how differently-abled people access web sites. For example, the majority of “blind” people have partial vision, so some may make use of a screen reader to supplement limited vision. Real example: “When exploring CSS, it was the totally-blind kids who insisted on learning how to make words in different colours.”
Re colour vision tests, they're images that are meant to be fairly hard to read, so that only people with near 100% in the relevant aspect of colour vision will see the "content". If there's a colour vision test that evaluates colour vision accurately and is also solvable by users with 100% colour vision but poor visual acuity, you might like to post it at Talk:Color blindness.
Re chess positions and other puzzles, hiding the solution increases readers' enjoyment of these by not telling the answer until they've had time to try solving them.
If JAWS hides such solutions, I would expect it also to reveal them when the user "clicks" (or JAWS equivalent), the "show" link.
Chess positions are currently represented by a table (8x8) in which the cells contain images of chess pieces. They are generated by templates, so if someone finds a way to present chess positions that is suitable for the different needs of "normal"-sighted users and those who use screen-readers, changing the templates would apply the upgrade to all diagrams. In that case users of screen-readers who are also keen chess players would benefit from the opportunity to have a go at these "puzzles" before being shown the solution.
I do not think accessibility should ever be used as an excuse for eliminating facilities that are useful for "normal" users. --Philcha (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
anything, to save random space
Is Misplaced Pages running out of space now? Would someone carefully describe this problem, so we can evaluate this “solution” for it?
Thanks for pointing out that the MOS recommends against hiding parts of the page. And yes, and can someone please remove the hidden sections from this very MOS, under Misplaced Pages:MOS#First sentences? I am not able to do so, because of another creative “solution” for a nonexistent problem (see #MOS or video game?, above). Thanks. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 00:20 z
I believe I've fixed your specific situation. Now back to what we're going to do about hidden sections in general... -- Quiddity (talk) 09:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
See my comments on "puzzles" above. I cannot believe that MOS should be used to deprive the majority of users of features that may increase their enjoyment of articles. --Philcha (talk) 12:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Even if those that use screen readers or other assisted methods of "viewing" WP pages make up <0.1% of our audience, we should strive to make sure to achieve 100% accessibility. That's not to say we shouldn't see how we can support it somehow. I'm wondering if there's a way to build that into the Mediawiki software and make a preference (that's off by default) that enables collapsable sections. This would immediately satisfy the screen readers, but we may still have problems with printing (unless we provided a different approach to that). --MASEM15:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The printing thing is easy - CSS allows separate styling for screen and print. All that's needed is for WP's techies to define and publish in a well-documented location suitable CSS class names with the screen rule set to "display:none" and the print rules set to "display:block", "display:inline", etc. (so we need 1 class for each value that would be usable in a print rule). "Well-documented" may be the tricky bit, as WP is poor at documentation.
It can't work that way. WP already does have print media specific CSS, however, collapsible sections are implemented through Javascript, and thus what is collapsed when printing is called stays collapsed as the JS code is not magically called to expand sections (I asked about this a while ago to make sure). An option is to have a "Print this page" link that regenerates the page with all sections expanded, but we want to KISS and have printing through the browser's function call to do the same. And I would beg to differ about making sure the functions are still there for normal users - WP aims to be a free content encyclopedia anyone can use and edit, and any barrier that prevents this should be removed. Again, if we can figure out a way that works for all options, great, but right now there isn't one. --MASEM15:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Can you provide a link to your previous discussion of CSS and JS for hidden sections? What I described is correct for Web pages in general, although I know there are one or two tricky points in implementation.
Re "anyone can use and edit", I agree about "anyone can use", subject to not depriving the majority of users of features that may increase their enjoyment of articles. "anyone can edit" is more doubtful, as the tightening of policies like WP:N and WP:V has made the learning curve steeper. In addition there will always be more technically-knowledgable and less technical editors - I wouldn't claim to be a technical guru, but I've used my modest knowledge of (X)HTML and CSS to help other editors with layout issues, and have produced a few templates. Sometimes I get stuck and ask others with greater technical expertise in certain areas for help. It's just another aspect of collaboration. --Philcha (talk) 15:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
See here. It's not technically impossible, but is impossible without backend support in MediaWiki. Again, the point is that it is a nice beneficial feature for 99+% of WP's users, but that feature at the present time does prevent some content access to a small fraction. It does need to be fixed to achieve 100% usability, and until that is in place, use of collapsing sections should be avoided. (I believe, for example, a collapsed section at FAC will not pass due to this). --MASEM16:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Re printing, the discussion for which you provided a link seemed to close with the suggestion that @media print { div.NavContent, ..., ... table.collapsible tr {display:block !important} } would do the job.
Re "prevent some content access to a small fraction":
I'm far from convinced that it would prevent access. As I said before, "show / hide" is a link, and AFAIK screen-readers and other assistive facilities are quite good at enabling users to find and activate links. I imagine they must also be quite good at informing users of changes in the visible content, otherwise AJAX-powered standard features such as "watch / unwatch" would raise accessibility problems.
The actual puzzles to which the solutions are hidden are themselves meaningless to users who are effectively blind. You seem to be proposing that WP should force spoilers on those who can enjoy these puzzles, while providing no benefit to those who cannot because of the visual nature of the puzzles.
Please note that I am not arguing in favour of hidden sections in general, but that a specific exception should be made for puzzles which can only be presented visually. --Philcha (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
just found this thread — coincidentally I've been experimenting with templated collapsible sections (autosections) recently, and I'm looking for feedback there. (Sorry for my previous edit, which resulted from a restored Firefox session after a crash while doing a "section edit".) --Zigger«º»12:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
More about transclude text
This is laughable. For those still trying to “improve” the way the wiki works: here's an objective description.
Decipher “{{:Misplaced Pages:Lead section TT first sentence content}}<!-- To edit this text go to ]. For more about transclude text go to ] -->” and realize that you should copy the text Misplaced Pages:Lead section TT first sentence content
Notice that 253 words of content are followed by 464 words of neatly-organized documentation. Scan the documentation until you get tired of it, then click “Edit this page”
Edit in the textarea, click “(Save page)”
Close the browser window, to see your results in the previous browser window. Pray you didn't make a typo, because editing this stupid Misplaced Pages crap is B.S.
The second version is not an improvement. Adopting it is not supported by consensus. You're welcome to propose the idea, but please remove this from the MOS. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 18:11 z
(1) The transclude text idea has been in place since August and you are the first person to be so adamantly opposed to it. (2) You have not responded to the underlying issue of how best to coordinate MOS pages - do you have a better solution? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
1) That is no indication that this arrangement is better than the usual one. How many users have actually made content edits to that section in this time? 2) Yeah, and I've mentioned this more than once. You put the text in the page of the main guideline where it belongs, and you link to from the other places, optionally with a short summary which should remain stable. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 21:59 z
I've made it a little bit easier, by placing the ===headers=== within the transcluded text, so that if you click their links, you get taken to the correct page immediately. Still not perfect, but then neither is wikimarkup for talkpage threads... ;) -- Quiddity (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but when a reader clicks the edit link for the “First sentences” section, he is still confronted with opaque gobbledygook.
Please don't patronizingly write “Mzajac test”. You are breaking the way Wiki pages are edited—this is a slap in the face for the average editor, and a terrible example to put in the MOS. It is completely unsuitable for normal editing, and you wouldn't get away with leaving this kind of terrible arrangement in a high-profile article for a single day. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-10 21:59 z
I am sorry that you found my attempt at levity to be patronizing. I can assure you that I did not mean for the comment to come across in that light. 22:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
With regard to the issue at hand, transclude text has been in the high profile Manual of Style article for a couple of months now and you are the first person to argue so passionately against it. For the third time I ask: Do you have a better solution for the problem of conflicting style pages?Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 22:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Well I don't feel like continuing the slap fight, so I'll paste my last response again: 2) Yeah, and I've mentioned this more than once. You put the text in the page of the main guideline where it belongs, and you link to from the other places, optionally with a short summary which should remain stable. This technique is used on tens of thousands of Misplaced Pages pages without screwing things up. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-11 02:23 z
I find myself apologizing to you once again - sure enough, you did answer my question before. Sorry I missed that. I'm not sure what a "slap fight" is but I do agree that it appears that you and I have differing opinions regarding: (A) Whether it is realistic to expect that the short summaries you propose will actually remain stable. (I offer as evidence for my position the existence of conflicting style pages that have built up over time from the system you are championing. See also discussion beginning at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Manual of Style#An example of a serious conflict.) (B) Whether the alternative transclude text solution is so cumbersome that it should be abandoned. (With regard to this disagreement I note that no one has jumped into our discussion to support your position that transclude text is simply unredeemable. Instead, a few folks have taken some of your criticisms regarding functionality to heart and have made improvements in the transclude text to at least partially resolve those criticisms.) Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 03:23, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the pros, but the con which makes this unacceptable is simply that a button labelled “edit” no longer lets someone edit. A one-step operation turns into “road closed: read this map, back up, and take a detour”. If a new feature breaks one of the basics, then it is not an improvement. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 06:28 z
Where is this "basic" rule found? Assuming such a rule does exist, I believe that WP:WIARM applies (particularly in light of the improvements that have been made within the past few days to resolve almost all of the concerns you raised). No doubt you disagree. It appears that we are at an impasse. 16:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
If you absolutely insist on a citation for “this "basic" rule”, then you could read over Help:Editing, which this method subverts; it also undermines a few of the principles in WP:5: it is disruptive by greatly raising the threshold of accessibility for productive editing, and asserts article ownership by the precious few editors who are comfortable with transclusions. If this isn't painfully obvious, perhaps have a read over WP:Common sense, too. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 17:40 z
I'm sorry but I just don't feel your pain. With the recent revisions it does not appear to me that an editor needs to be comfortable with transclusion to change the first sentence text. And the citations you have provided don't seem to say that making editing as simple as possible is so crucial to Misplaced Pages that slight complications in particular situations should be banned even when the result is to solve another problem. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
“You don't feel my pain?”—that's exactly what I'm talking about. You are comfortable using this to deal with your own editing issues, with complete disregard for the needs of novice and average editors. Why don't you update Help:Editing with instructions for transclusions? —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 22:06 z
I respectfully disagree with your characterization of my position as being in "complete disregard for the needs of novice and average editors." In fact I (and some other, more talented editors) have recently made a number of changes to the first sentence section of this article to specifically meet the needs of novice and average editors. You appear to be completely disregarding those changes. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
True enough, you have tried to mitigate the potential problems, but this is inadequate. As I pointed out, clicking the main section's “Edit” button still gives the editor a completely unexpected result, and forces him or her to read some instructions. And even this is not applicable if subsections are absent, and will break down if the subsections are renamed or removed. Even for its intended purpose, this “solution” is less useful than just leaving a link as I suggested. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 23:30 z
I accept your apology. As to your other remarks, I believe we should proceed as you suggested below (i.e., set up a poll in the hope that it will move the discussion forward). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I have to admit, this transclusion business does make editing that section confusing. How do you accommodate those that have section editing turned off? Is the solution to that to make the "instructions" even more complex? If anything, IAR would prescribe reverting the transclusion, and quickly. --Kbdank7117:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Do those people need to be accommodated? It seems to me that turning off editing is something that is done by sophisticated editors. (I don't know how to do it and I'm not sure why anyone would do it.) I suspect those folks who know enough to turn off section editing can also figure out transclude text without too much difficulty. After all, the use of transclusion has been around for quite some time (seeMisplaced Pages:Transclusion). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
"My Preferences", "Editing". 2 seconds. 5 to save and refresh your cache. Fairly simple, even for unsophisticated editors who know nothing about transclusion. Regardless, though, it seems to me that making Misplaced Pages harder to use for most and (according to your instructions) impossible for others goes against this being a wiki. --Kbdank7118:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm still working on understanding the extent of the problem here. Would you please tell me why someone would spend the seven seconds to disable section editing? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you're not understanding the right thing. Don't bother understanding why they would do it, because it's irrelevant. Understand that those that do choose to do it will be unable to edit that section. Understand that even if they can edit sections, this makes it more difficult. We should not be putting up roadblocks and detours to edit wikipedia. --Kbdank7120:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, without the explanation I am left to conclude that those who do it are purposefully making it difficult for themselves to edit for no good reason. I am not sure we need to be too concerned about accommodating what I imagine to be a very small group of folks who (a) are sophisticated enough to know how to turn off section editing, (b) voluntarily chose to turn it off for no good reason (other than, apparently, the challenge of making it more difficult for them to edit sections), and (c) aren't sophisticated enough to figure out how to edit trancluded text (such as templates). Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 22:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
There's a lot of speculation here about what certain editors would do and what they wouldn't, and obviously the respective sides' arguments are not convincing the others, because we're starting to repeat ourselves. Why don't we just hold a poll, here or at the village pump, to gauge whether consensus supports adding transclusions to pages in the Misplaced Pages: and Help: namespaces? —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 22:06 z
That may help us make some progress. The problem will be in reaching an agreement regarding the the phrasing of the proposal. (I don't think we can talk about transclude text without talking about the problem of conflicting style guides.) How do you suggest we work on that issue? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 23:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
How about expanding the TT docs to include an explanation of the problem to be solved, a list of advantages and disadvantages, and alternatives. When this is stable, we can refer editors to the docs and let them judge for themselves—and the system can speak for itself. Also useful would be a list of places it is in use, so that we have a variety of examples. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 23:39 z
I just realized that the section in question here is actually two separate transcluded files. Wouldn't it be better to just use a single one? Currently, one subsection cannot be edited while viewing the other, and a section intro sentence can't be added before the first subsection (right?). And a simpler arrangement may be easier to understand. —MichaelZ. 2008-11-12 23:39 z
Should Presidential Templates Comply to MoS Naming Convention?
Presently, Barack Obama's template is using his full name. There are some editors advocating that all presidential templates should use full names rather than the most common name as specified here. I would like some resolution to this. Modocc (talk) 05:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Suggest that "Similarly" be removed (I found it impossible in a few minutes to think of an appropriate replacement, and it is not an active part of the policy issue discussed in the sentence). The first sentence differs from the second in that the first allows deviations from the main title to be used, the second demands a deviation in the case of disambiguation words or phrases. There is only the most tenuous connection between them: there is the -possibility- of the requirement of the second occurring within the bounds of the first, without regard to the mandate of the second. They have a shared subject, but the requirements of each as regards that subject differ. I hope I haven't done this potentially intuitively understood proposal to death with my dubious skill in constructing an argument of logic. Anarchangel (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
"By the same token"? Regardless of whether you select this or another phrase I think you can safely change "Similarly" to some more appropriate word or phrase without fear of much resistance. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 21:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the content of the two misleadingly titled sections just above down here, so that the topic is treated in one place. Below the existing material, I've posted a more detailed explanation of why the long-standing text should not be anodysed as Anderson has done twice in the past day.
In regard to the question of using a hyphen after an -ly adverb, User:Pmanderson has just informed me that "the question of English usage ... differs between the national varieties of English." The same editor has also changed the wording of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Hyphens, section 3, point 4. I looked for more information about the matter on this talk page, but found none. If those differences exist, what specifically are they?
-- Wavelength (talk) 05:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Reverted; thanks for alerting us, Wavelength. The reason for the rule is that an -ly adverb clearly flags that it will quality a subsequent verb (usually immediately after). Tony(talk)14:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
This is why I quote "specially-designed sound cards", where the adverb is not qualifying a verb, but an adjective (here a participle, but it could be any adjective). SeptentrionalisPMAnderson22:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
The comment I replied to was predicated on classification of participles as adjectives, which is contrary to mainstream linguistic theory. If the comment in question had a point (and I can't see one), it is defeated by that fact. Ilkali (talk) 17:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
The old wording encouraged, indeed mandated, the dehyphenation of compound adjectives, such as specially-designed sound cards. These are being "corrected" by a single-purpose account, who gives little scope for the use of the hyphen here in avoiding ambiguity, and none to the difference in this respect between American and British English.
He is also finding his instances by searching on ly-. This is a recipe for bad writing; although I have to admit it could be worse; he could be using a bot.
Response by Tony1: I've reverted Anderson's second attempt to dilute into meaninglessness a useful guideline in MOS that I believe has improved the readability of WP's article text. I've received a substantial email on the matter from User:Noetica, who is on an extended Wikibreak, but noticed Anderson's edits. Noetica writes:
"I subscribe to the Chicago Manual of Style online (recommended). Here is the Chicago ruling:
5.93 There are exceptions for hyphenating phrasal adjectives: (1) If the phrasal adjective follows a verb, it is usually unhyphenated—for example, compare a well-trained athlete with an athlete who is well trained. (2) When a proper name begins a phrasal adjective, the name is not hyphenated {the Monty Python school of comedy}. (3) A two-word phrasal adjective that begins with an adverb ending in ly is not hyphenated {a sharply worded reprimand} (but a not-so-sharply-worded reprimand).
Absolutely definitive, confidently prescriptive, and in accord with our long-standing text. Other guides issue much the same edict."
Anderson, please stop trying to impose your anti-centralist, do-as-you-please agenda on our style guides by anodyning its guidance bit by bit.Tony(talk)08:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
In general, CMOS is a hasty piece of shorthand for writers and editors in a hurry. We are not; we can afford to be prescriptive only when English usage is without exception. (And in fact, we omit most such points, because we don't need to specify them; when English usage is genuinely without exception, it's not controversial here also.) SeptentrionalisPMAnderson17:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm beginning to think Tony and PMA are using different definitions of "prescriptive". Perhaps they'd care to elaborate their intended meanings for the term in the above, because to my reading the CMOS quote above is more descriptive than prescriptive. LeadSongDog (talk) 20:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
PMAnderson, you flagged the guideline concerning ly-adverb modifiers as disputed. The way you did it disrupted the markup and the numeration. If you re-apply a dispute tag, check the effects of doing so. Otherwise you gratuitously blemish a page consulted by well over a thousand people a day. While you do such checking, take the time to read the section you are tinkering with. The section on hyphens includes the following proviso:
Hyphenation involves many subtleties that cannot be covered here; the rules and examples presented above illustrate the broad principles that inform current usage.
I have not joined in discussion here for ages. Nor have I edited the page for many months, though I have been one of its most prolific editors, if the statistics are to be believed. The reason? I thought progress was impossible beyond a certain level, because editors like you, PMA, stood doggedly against MOS as a genuine corpus of guidelines. You just don't seem to be able to separate the issues. Every style guide must guide. Every style guide adopts a prescriptive tone. That is its virtue, and its reason for being. That is what people value in it, and why we get our thousand hits a day (even after allowing for the activity of MOS editors themselves). We disappoint those who come here for guidance, if we offer only bland nullities. Don't tell them this, for example: "The hyphen may be omitted after an -ly adverb"! That will license text like this: "we had a really-good time". Tell them what all major guides tell them. That's what the current text does perfectly well:
A hyphen is not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy).
And don't purvey such unsupported conceits as this, to a readership of one thousand a day:
A hyphen is generally not used after an -ly adverb (wholly owned subsidiary) unless part of a larger compound (a slowly-but-surely strategy); sometimes, especially in British English, a hyphen may be used to clarify exactly what the adverb modifies.
Almost worthless. Can you even cite any authority for that assertion about British English? I have surveyed many style guides, and not one says anything like that. I don't approve of everything CMOS says, but the guides are pretty well unanimous concerning ly-adverbs and hyphens. Find one that contradicts our current guideline. In fact, ours is more complete than most, since it includes the most important kind of exception (a slowly-but-surely strategy). There are other exceptions sanctioned implicitly by some authorities; I know about them, through my extensive investigations. But you have not identified them, and you have not brought to this discussion any respected guide that so much as hints at them. Can you do that? I doubt it! And even if you could, such a source would have to be weighed against the united voice of the American CMOS, the British New Hart's Rules, and the other guides that I could cite.
If this matter did not affect the convenience of one thousand readers a day, I would have simply stayed away in graceful retirement, PMAnderson. Ever tried graceful retirement? Think it over. I thoroughly recommend it, for the new perspective and tranquillity it affords on old issues one has cared too closely about. But I cannot stand by, leaving Tony to struggle alone against such unreflective and obtuse depredations.
MOS cannot function at its best if it is not allowed to guide. It must not be a draconian imposition on editors, and it is not; but to guide, it must answer the questions that people bring to it. The thousand a day are looking for a concrete prescription, not the vapid deliverances of Desiderata.
Yes; it is part of Fowler's discussion of hyphens. (He does not prescribe for American.) The old wording, sans exceptions, is being used to justify bot-like removal of hyphens in this construct, even when they are grammatical and do add to clarity, despite the catchall sentence. When moderate wording indicating that hyphens can occur in this construction, although they normally do not, is agreed upon, the tag certainly can and should go. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson00:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I have stated the example that annoyed me, and it was not "really-good time". I am very tired of having red herrings dragged across MOS to defend it every time it says something stupid. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson00:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
PMA, the tag is designed to be placed at the top of a section, as its wording suggests. With some browsers (like recent versions of Mozilla Firefox) it interferes with the display of subsequent text if it is used irregularly. As for a really-good time, it is no red herring. You continue to avoid the issue. The wording you had proposed does not rule out such errors; the wording you attempted to replace did rule them out. That is why our MOS, along with every other major style guide, gives such a guideline. As for Fowler's, note first that it is not a style guide. Then I must ask: Which edition are you talking about? What does it say, exactly? Why should the fact that it typically does not address American English warrant our saying, to well over one thousand readers a day, anything at all about differences across the Atlantic concerning these compound ly-adverb premodifiers?
I personally find adverbly-adjective constructions acceptable, but I recognise the value of conventions and adamantly object to Pmanderson's constant attempts to erode the MoS. In this case, his proposed alternative is no better than having no text at all. I am in favor of the original wording. Ilkali (talk) 00:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
If I may presume to give the obvious answer on Ilkali's behalf, he prefers this uniformity (which is a perfectly serviceable approximation for all purposes) to insisting on his own preferences. He works toward the greater good. (Many of us do that, PMA. Take note.) In this case, the greater good is a style guide that actually guides. I don't know that Ilkali accepts a really-good time and the like; but he seems to want to give hundreds of thousands of Wikipedians each year access to a ruling that will keep us from becoming a laughing stock.
I don't, of course, accept a really-good time. What I should've said is that I generally find it acceptable to hyphenate -ly adverbs with past participles, but there are probably some exceptions. Likewise, there may be instances of hyphenating with simple adjectives that I find acceptable, despite really-good being aberrant. Without some way to concisely articulate my intuitions, and without any indication that others share those intuitions, I'm happy to accept a simple rule that sometimes excludes constructions I would accept, but reliably excludes ones we'd all reject. Ilkali (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
That still offers a wide scope for interpretation. Indeed, I would hope that many looked to see what this page said, and had better sense than to treat what they found as a ruling; and of those who sought "rulings", perhaps half-a-dozen looked at any given sentence (perhaps one; we cannot tell how many passed through on their way to subpages). Your language shows what is wrong with MOS: we are not a race of kings. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson06:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Please don't pretend we agree, PMan. As Noetica suggests, the difference between us is that I am willing to discard my personal sensibilities in support of something universally beneficial, such as the clarity and unequivocality of the text you want to replace. "Not English"? Absolute drivel. Is specially designed sound card "not English"? Ilkali (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Very well, we do not agree. You speak as a disciple of Carlyle and Lord Shang: Nothing is useful, except a direct unconditional order. Actually describing the English language is of secondary importance, if any. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson06:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
At this point, I have tried four different wordings in a search for compromise. Is there any reason, other than this "we must speak prescriptively" argument, why we should not say, as the other clauses do, that hyphens are not normally used after -ly? SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Reasons have already been given. Do you accept that, for any hyphenated form excluded by the original guideline, the unhyphenated equivalent is legitimate English? Do you accept that your version of the guideline permits illegitimate English? Ilkali (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Diff for the reasons, please. As for these questions: no, I do not accept that "specially designed sound cards" is good English; if sound were a true adjective, rather than an attributive, it would be worse still. Nor do I accept that "normally" permits illegitimate English, any more than the normally in the following clause: A hyphen is normally used when the adverb well precedes a participle used attributively (a well-meaning gesture; but normally a very well managed firm, since well itself is modified); and even predicatively, if well is necessary to, or alters, the sense of the adjective rather than simply intensifying it (the gesture was well-meaning, the child was well-behaved, but the floor was well polished). SeptentrionalisPMAnderson23:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
"no, I do not accept that "specially designed sound cards" is good English". Well, I don't know what to tell you other than that the purpose of the MoS isn't to license all of your personal preferences. Ilkali (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Style guides are by nature prescriptive. If you wish to abolish the MoS, kindly approach the matter directly and overtly rather than trying to disassemble the document one piece at a time. Ilkali (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not wish to abolish MOS; that is my next to last choice. But you are mistaken: style guides are not by nature prescriptive; they are descriptive, and advisory: They describe what English does, and recommend between the available choices, giving what reasons there may be for each. As an example, I quote the text for the second section of WP:HYPHEN.
There is a clear trend, not yet complete, to join both elements in all varieties of English (subsection, nonlinear), particularly in North America. British English tends to hyphenate when the letters brought into contact are the same (non-negotiable, sub-basement) or are vowels (pre-industrial), or where a word is uncommon (co-proposed, re-target) or may be misread (sub-era, not subera). North American English reflects the same factors, but tends strongly to close up without a hyphen when possible. Consult a good dictionary, and see WP:ENGVAR.
That offers facts and advice, which varies by national dialect. It makes no command, except the inarguable one to consult a dictionary, but it guides the reader all the same. If there were compilations of punctuation comparable to dictionaries, we would recommend that they be consulted for the rest of this paragraph. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson22:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
By their nature, all popular style and usage guides are prescriptive, though to varying degrees: some are fairly tolerant of deviations from standard English; others can be downright cranky. The most irascible critics are sometimes called "the Grammar Police."
By searching on the web, one may find almost any set of keywords; it helps, however, to read the text found and see what it actually says. This is addressing, as may be plainly seen, the opposite issue: whether a style guide should tolerate "deviations from standard English". That is not what is in question here: Ilkali and Wavelength are demanding that MOS forbid a usage that is standard English, and which is sometimes clearer and less ambiguous than the alternative. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson02:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
"style guides are not by nature prescriptive; they are descriptive, and advisory". Welcome to contradiction theatre, folks. Ilkali (talk) 03:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Does Wavelength look at search results before posting them? That list begins with a wikimedia user page, continues with Wedding, then on to es:Misplaced Pages:Manual de estilo. This at least has found some results which are not WP and its sister projects, mostly one Stephen Downes' blog, but is there a point here? (Aside from the question of whether {{rewrite}} should redirect here; the objections at Wedding are not MOS concerns.) SeptentrionalisPMAnderson03:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Above the list of links, you can see the number of links. At the bottom right corner of the page, you can click to see subsequent pages of the list of links. The distinction here between Misplaced Pages pages and non-Misplaced Pages pages is of minor importance. Even links to the project page from other Misplaced Pages pages are an indication of the importance of the project page. The main point here is to show the importance of the page by the number of pages linking to it, and thereby to supplement what Noetica said about the number of times the project page has been viewed. -- Wavelength (talk) 07:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
This has gone on far too long. If Anderson were able to present any evidence for the claim that he is now reduced to (inclusion of the word normally), we might have settled things earlier. He has referred us only to Fowler's. Which version, I asked earlier? No response! Fowler's does not, despite Anderson's assertion, deliver anything relevant to ly-adverbs that would support his case. Since Anderson cannot do or refuses to do the necessary work, I will. Garner's Modern American Usage (Bryan A Garner, OUP, USA; 2nd edition 2003, 928 pages) is a meticulous and authoritatively prescriptive work, at ease with its role and enormously well received by a wide readership. Garner devotes seven dense columns of text to phrasal adjectives. His essential message? Use hyphens. He begins with a general rule:
A. General Rule. When a phrase functions as an adjective preceding the noun it modifies the phrase should ordinarily be hyphenated. Most professional writers know this; most nonprofessionals don't. (p. 604)
This is followed by the solid reasons for such a practice, and long lists of examples. Then this (with my underlining):
Some guides might suggest that you should make a case-by-case decision, based on whether a misreading is likely. You're better off with a flat rule (with a few exceptions noted below) because almost all sentences with unhyphenated phrasal adjectives will be misread by someone. (p. 605)
Then follow illustrations of what can happen when hyphens are omitted. And last, the exceptions referred to. Only one of these is relevant to the guideline we are discussing:
B. Exception for -ly Adverbs. When a phrasal adjective begins with an adverb ending in -ly, the convention is to drop the hyphen . But if the -ly adverb is part of a longer phrase, then the hyphen is mandatory (the not-so-hotly-contested race).
That's it. Nothing more to be said that's relevant to our guideline. No qualification with normally, no sometimes, no British do this but we do that. After establishing the baseline assumption that hyphens are generally to be used in phrasal adjectives, and listing several dozen examples to reinforce that assumption, Garner finds only one class of phrasal adjectives with -ly that calls for a hyphen; and that is exactly the class that we mention. CMOS, New Hart's, and all other major style guides agree. If they mention any exception at all, they mention that same exception.
Now, I am aware of further considerations, and certain very particular sorts of further exceptions that no style guide I have seen addresses. But I don't think they amount to much, and I have no more time to devote to this exercise. Anderson should now accept that the weight of almost all who write in this field is against him, and that he has no body of support here. I have removed the attenuated qualification with normally that he inserted, pre-empting discussion here. And I have removed the dispute tag, for such an ill-founded and one-sided assault on our plain, useful, and perfectly justified wording. Let him waste our time no longer, without bringing detailed argument and evidence to the table. This has been a serious imposition on my time, and on the patience and time of many others here.
I have once again removed a dispute tag that was improperly applied in the middle of the section. See my edit summary. The edit appears anonymous because of a local system glitch. (I am not at my usual location.)–⊥Noetica!– 22:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, there is no question that there is a dispute in the section. If the dispute tag cannot be next to the disputed statement, it should be at the beginning of the section. — Arthur Rubin(talk)15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Please no, it makes people think that the whole section is in dispute. Better to leave the tag out completely - it serves no purpose except to half-direct people to what independent observers will conclude, sadly, is a very lame discussion.--Kotniski (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Nonsense. There is a legitimate dispute. If there's no way to tag just the disputed statement as disputed, the tag is necessary for the article to be a legitimate guideline. The alternative, I suppose, is to use the disputed guideline tag at the top; which we'd both like even less. — Arthur Rubin(talk)18:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
We don't insert dispute tags every time someone disagrees with part of the article. Is there some reason the tag is appropriate for this issue but not any of the others being discussed on this page? Ilkali (talk) 18:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Of course there is no reason to flag this particular section as disputed any more than the others. These disputes over dispute tags are becoming tiresome and disruptive - let's remember that guideline pages are not private battlegrounds, but are intended to be read by editors, who don't know what to make of a section that has a red question mark at the top (particularly misleading when the dispute is only over one insignificant detail of a large section; and the tag is added without even using the parameter that takes people to the relevant talk page discussion). Rather than continue battling the issue out here, I've tried to formulate some guidance for use of such tags, or rather to clarify and expand what was already written at WP:Policies and guidelines. Please comment on that talk page on my recent changes there. Of course I'm not saying anything I wrote there is applicable (anyone's perfectly entitled to slap a disputed tag on that), but I think it would currently imply that the correct solution in this situation is no tag or, if people really think it's useful, an {{underdiscussion}} tag, with the talk page discussion section noted.--Kotniski (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I am sympathetic to both sides here, and the general question needs to be discussed elsewhere; so thanks to Kotniski. In the present case, the tag disrupts markup if placed exactly where it is relevant, but if placed at the beginning of the whole section its scope is misrepresented. Luckily, the dispute has now diminished to exclusion or inclusion of the single word normally. No user of WP:MOS will be misled or inconvenienced by the tag's absence; but some might be by its presence. Accordingly, I am removing the tag. Let anyone reinstating it give a justification that counters the reason I have just articulated.
This discussion would not have begun if the absence of normally, or some such qualifying phrase, were not itself inconveniencing users of the encyclopedia. An irresponsible editor is taking its absence as an excuse to remove useful hyphens. Pleading the disputed clause as a justification for this form of vandalism should be more difficult if this tag remains. An in-line tag, like {{dubious}}, would be ideal, but I'm not sure one exists. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson15:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
"An irresponsible editor is taking its absence as an excuse to remove useful hyphens". At the moment this can't be taken as anything more than a single person's opinion. If nobody else agrees, there is no consensus either to make the change you suggest or to mark the section as disputed. Ilkali (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a repetition of part of a post which I made at 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC).
If "specially designed sound cards" is ambiguous,
then a disambiguation here would be helpful,
because I can see only one possible interpretation.
Is that supposed to be a poem? But on the question of the tag and the section's wording, can we all eat our tea if we include "normally" (like it makes any difference) and omit the (clearly misleading) section tag?--Kotniski (talk) 20:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I did not intend it to be a poem. I put each clause on a separate line, to make the sentence easier to read. I am still waiting for PMAnderson to disambiguate the expression, and to explain how a hyphen after "specially" makes a difference.
Manderson, all style guides are bound to be both descriptive and prescriptive. Now, tell me, as a child were you thrashed regularly by your father for disobedience? I'm trying to work out exactly why you have such a bee in your bonnet about rules. Tony(talk)00:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
MoS needs rescoping
I have for some time now had this fantasy that the generic material in the MoS will be transwikied into one or more WikiBooks projects—e.g. a scientific writing style manual, a Web content best practice manual—thus rescoping our MoS as documentation of our Misplaced Pages-specific conventions. Hesperian22:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Is there really any doubt about "boss's" and "dress's" (rather than "boss' " and "dress' ") as is implied by the latest edit? --Kotniski (talk) 11:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
A rule of thumb that I use (and that some publishers recommend) is based on the sound of the final S. If it's an S sound (boss, dress, bus) add apostrophe-s. If it's a Z sound (James, Hitchens), add just an apostrophe (though classical names like Zeus take just an apostrophe even though the final sound is S). Would it be useful to propose this here, I wonder? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 14:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
What about common nouns like "series", "species" (I mean the singulars)? For me, series' and species' look inescapably plural.--Kotniski (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Good question - but I'd definitely say "the species' origin is in ..." - meaning a singular species. So I guess it doesn't look inescapably plural to me. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs )
I'd regard those words as exceptional enough that they could be listed, if necessary. Certainly this is better than just saying "some don't". But more importantly, we should be basing this on cited examples of authorities which prescribe this rule, rather than anecdotal evidence. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk08:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Interesting — I think this perception comes from the fact that these words have invariant plurals. Which invites the question: Is there a common noun that (in the singular) ends in a voiced s, that does not have an invariant plural? Offhand I can't think of one. --Trovatore (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I would pronounce it to rhyme with the equally Latin series; so would the OED. This is not the currently popular pronunciation in Latin in either case; but we are dealing with English. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson15:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
For the pronunciation? Wiktionary is unsourced; the pronunciation given would be correct in (one of the half-dozen pronunciation systems for) Latin, but disagrees with observation and the OED (/'laɪmiːz/, if I have the right semivowel) for English. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson23:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
This guideline is a part of the English Misplaced Pages's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply. Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.
Despite the presence of the above box at the very top of WP:MOS, several editors here have recently indicated a belief that MOS should be prescriptive, and thereby demonstrated a lack of understanding that it is a "guideline", the meaning of which is laid out in WP:POL. Please take a moment to review at least the nutshell. LeadSongDog (talk) 02:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Certain editors regard anything less than than a command: Do this, Don't do that, as rendering MOS useless; see, for example, #Hyphens after -ly adverbs (rationalised section), above, where there are several objection to a proposal to change "a hyphen is not used" in certain circumstances, to "a hyphen is not normally used", on the grounds that to insert normally or generally weakens MOS to a nullity. (I hold that in the instant case, the claim is false without such qualification, but that should be discussed there.)
The question here is: Is this absolute language, in a guideline, which will have occasional exceptions and special cases, either helpful or appropriate? Some of us would prefer to describe what English does (often not always or never, and the cases where it is generally have not gotten into MOS, because we don't need to decide them). SeptentrionalisPMAnderson03:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
If we wanted to be genuinely descriptive, we would be neutrally describing all the errors that English speakers habitually make. We wouldn't be describing forms as "correct" or "incorrect" (,,,,etc), we wouldn't have at the top of the page "Editors should follow ", and we wouldn't use a word like 'should' over a hundred times throughout the article.
You don't actually want the MoS to be descriptive, and you're confusing your case by suggesting that you do. What you want is for it to prescribe a range of possible styles, all approved by yourself, without expressing any strong preference. That's still prescription, it's just a much blander form. Until you understand what you're advocating, nobody's going to be able to convince you that it's a bad idea. Ilkali (talk) 03:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I congratulate you on acquiring telepathy, but it seems to be wonky. I do indeed want MOS to be descriptive; that would in itself do most of the work of guidance we need. (We do not, of course, need to describe, still less to prescribe, all of English - including those actually occurring usages which are vulgar errors; that would require volumes, which already exist and are available elsewhere.) What would be useful is to describe what good writers actually do, and, as we do not, on what grounds they actually do it. That might even be persuasive, and obviate the bullying, bot usage, and name-calling. This would involve treating our fellow editors as adults, with minds to be persuaded; is that the obstacle?
I have no objection to the behavioural prescriptions, such as ENGVAR; they may indeed be the only really useful part of MOS.
Postulating what the other side are "really" saying has "all the advantages of theft over honest toil", to quote Bertrand Russell. When you get tired of arguing with straw men, do let us know. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson03:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
"I do indeed want MOS to be descriptive; that would in itself do most of the work of guidance we need. (We do not, of course, need to describe, still less to prescribe, all of English". As soon as you choose what to describe, you fall into prescription. You're trying to handwave that away by saying "no, we're just describing the language used by people we want our editors to copy". Can't that be said about virtually any prescription? Again, this isn't a matter of description vs prescription, it's a matter of how broad our prescriptions should be. Ilkali (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
As soon as you choose what to describe, you fall into prescription. Does anybody else believe this? Must we transcribe all of Jesperson (and he does not describe everything), or fall into prescription? (To say nothing of the fact that we are choosing to describe English, as opposed to French, or to chess.) This is another purely verbal argument, by a sophist, who, like Humpty Dumpty, makes words mean whatever he pleases. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a meaningless question. For a guideline to guide, it must prescribe some options while advising against others. There is no way a manual of style could be anything but prescriptive. Ilkali (talk) 03:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Just as it is easy to support practically anything from a judiciously chosen Google search, it is possible to lend all manner of absurdities a veneer of credibility with a well-chosen quotation from Bertrand Russell. The one I would bring to the table is this:
It is a waste of energy to be angry with a man who behaves badly, just as it is to be angry with a car that won't go. (Collected papers of Bertrand Russell, volume 10, Routledge)
But now that I consider more closely, this one fits pretty well: Anderson both behaves badly and, usurping the prerogative of the car, won't go. For this reason we are perhaps doubly wise not to be angry. Rather, Anderson, we should view your campaign against MOS with stoic equanimity, and meet it as we might some mere natural calamity. Truly, that is why I retired from my engagement with MOS some months ago. Until now. Your persistent jackal-like despoiling of others' good work has drawn me back, at least for a short while.
I suppose we ought to feel relieved: The Chicago Manual of Style (CMOS) earns from you as little consideration as our MOS does. Is CMOS truly "a hasty piece of shorthand for writers and editors in a hurry", in your words recorded above? An odd judgement, concerning the major style guide for the publishing industry – all 984 pages of its fifteenth edition. Hasty? Shorthand? Come now. Even I don't say that, and I am one of its stern critics.
There is a general uncertainty and unease about prescriptiveness. But let me remind editors: to prescribe is not to command; to advise is not to browbeat; to guide is not to goad. As Ilkali and I have pointed out (as if it needed it!), style guides by their nature prescribe standards and touchstones in support of consistent high quality. They offer remedies for the difficulties writers and editors encounter. Worthwhile style guides anticipate a good proportion of the most thorny and most probable problems, though none can predict every conceivable eventuality. Any attempt to do this would end up not as guidance but as an offer to take over the task of composition itself.
Misplaced Pages's own MOS is a style guide, and unlike such farraginous compendia as Fowler's, it must aim to prescribe real solutions to the problems likely to be encountered in making and improving Misplaced Pages articles. Sometimes it can do this well by description of accepted practice elsewhere; but to insist that is all it can do is to be a fanatic. No style guide merely describes! And let's be clear about this: style guides, in prescribing for good style, do not always have to use the imperative mood ("Do this, and not that"). Nor do they have to employ modals of obligation ("You must capitalise a proper noun"). No, they commonly use ordinary indicative sentences ("In British usage a colon is not often followed by a full stop").
WP:MOS should be a rationally organised suite of guidelines that genuinely guide: not detailed to the point of mind-numbing prolixity, and not broad to the point of vacuity. Its language should be simple, confident, and unambiguous. It should make sound and useful recommendations based on the deliberations of committed, interested, knowledgeable editors, and thereby earn the broader Misplaced Pages community's respect. Exactly how obligatory the community wants to make those recommendations is not our concern here. We should simply make the best guidelines we can. We should not work to sabotage that endeavour, through a misguided and fanatical confusion of roles.
From the above, I take it that Noetica interprets "prescribe" here by using one of its softer meanings. It has quite a range, and therein lies some of the discomfort. From my old Funk & Wagnall's:
prescribe v. 1.To set down as a direction or rule to be followed; ordain; enjoin. 2.Med. To order the use of (a medicine, treatment, etc.). 3.Law To render invalid by lapse of time. v.i. 4. To lay down laws or rules; give direction. 5.Med. To order a remedy; give prescriptions. 6.Lawa To assert a title to something on the basis of prescription: with for or to. b To become invalid or unenforceable by lapse of time.
Insofar as the MoS should be descriptive, it should be in that it forms a corpus of good practice taken from the prescriptions of authorities in the field. In this way, it documents what others have prescribed. We then go one step further and say "therefore, one should do X as this is what the authorities do". This is perfectly sensible as it allows editors the authority to unify the styling of different articles. Without any hint of prescription, every article is its own little fiefdom where local rules apply. I disagree strongly with this happening. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk13:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and LeadSongDog, please spare us the medical and legal definitions. Indeed, more than they are irrelevant in that comprehensive definition; fact is, "prescribe" has a range of meanings, and "enjoin" is one of them, as you point out. My Encarta Dictionary says of that word: "urge, encourage, admonish, press; instruct". But Anderson would have us dilute our style guide into nothingness—in the spirit of the political hard-right, he just can't abide centralised advice or direction for the good of a community (unless he quite likes it WRT a particular point). Tony(talk)14:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
In my experience, orders, demands, and a system which all must follow, without exceptions, and independently of the evidence, are precisely characteristic of the hard right. Australian politics may differ. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, Tony, I am not advocating the use of any one of those definitions (I simply quoted the entry entire), but rather pointing out that there is such a significant range of meanings as to effectively render the term useless for the purpose of this discussion. The link Ilkali kindly provided to Linguistic prescription was interesting. That article could benefit from some TLC to improve its inline citations and I have so tagged it, but it was still informative. Even so, we are not exactly talking about linguistics here, but about the WP House style guideline.LeadSongDog (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Collapsing
A recent addition says:
Scrolling lists and boxes that toggle text display between hide and show are acceptable in infoboxes and navigation boxes, but should never be used in the article prose or references, because of issues with readability, accessibility, printing, and site mirroring. Additionally, such lists and boxes may not display properly in all web browsers.
Info and navboxes shouldn't contain unique information anyway - they're at-a-glance summaries. I agree that keeping them short is a better solution than allowing them to collapse, but doing so shouldn't ever make information physically unreachable for certain readers, unlike collapsing sections in the article body. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk13:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
It's redundant; the chief problem with readability (and AFAICT the problem with accessibility) is that they don't display properly in certain browsers and devices. A shorter form would be welcome. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Proposed addition to "Currencies" section
I propose that the following text be inserted in the "Currencies" section:
The names of currencies, currency subdivisions, coins and banknotes should not be capitalised except where normal capitalisation rules require this (for example, at the start of a sentence).
If changing a heading, try to locate and fix broken links; for example, searching for Misplaced Pages "section headings" will yield links to the current section.
Perhaps I'm just being slow, but I'm unclear what this is trying to say. Should it read "... searching Misplaced Pages for ..."? And why "section headings"? Is there a special "search Misplaced Pages for section headings" feature (if so a pointer to it would be helpful), or does it just mean that you should use the normal search facilities to locate all instances of the text of the section heading in case they might be links to it. (Unless it's an unusual combination of words, good luck. A better option would be to search for Title#Heading, yes?) Matt 20:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.194.39 (talk)
Well, I think it means just to insert the string Misplaced Pages "section headings" into the search box ("Section headings" just being an example, happening to be the title of the section in which this statement appears). I'm not sure it's a great example though.--Kotniski (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Aha, I see what you mean... yes, I was being slow (in my defence, I think that using a section called "section headings" as an example is, as you say, not great -- not as currently worded at any rate). Would it be better to say '...searching Misplaced Pages for "Manual of Style#Section headings"...' then? Provided you enter the double quotes and click "Search" this seems to work, and would seem to be more generally applicable, as well as making it easier to understand what the explanation is getting at. For example, if you want to find a link to a section heading called "History" then searching for Misplaced Pages "History" might not be very helpful? Matt 03:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.30.114 (talk)
Footnotes in the lede?
I recently saw someone claim that the MOS says the lede section of an article should not contain footnotes. I dont care about the article in question, but please tell me this isn't so. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The idea is that the lede is a mere summary of the article, so all claims in the lede will be verified in the text. As such, visually distracting inline citations do not provide any benefit to the reader. If this is not covered in the MoS, I think it ought to be. the skomorokh21:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
There are many purposes for footnotes other than inline citations of specific facts. In particular, they are used for parenthetical and editorial comments. And the scientific citation guideline has long recommended that one way of indicating general references for the article is via footnotes or inline citations in the first paragraph, as in Mathematical logic and Aldol reaction. So I can't see that a blanket prohibition would be justified. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd agree in most cases, but I still think it's not totally uncommon to get the occasional cite-worthy statement appearing in the lede that isn't repeated anywhere else. Perhaps we could make a recommendation including exceptions; but perhaps not on this page, but on whichever one it is now that deals with citations.--Kotniski (talk) 22:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Aye, for well-developed articles. Many ledes are simply unsectioned leftovers rather than summaries. Something like "inline citations are discouraged in the lead sections of articles where the lede functions as a summary"? I image WP:LEDE would be the place to address this. the skomorokh22:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
(ec) Examples of two well-developed articles that use notes in the lead for dispute resolution: USS Constitution, an FA, uses two notes that point out facts that were often changed or discussed on the talk page. Led Zeppelin, a former FA candidate, uses notes in the lead to an extreme, again to avoid arguments about facts that were disputed in the past. I would have to say that the USS Constitution uses the correct style, and Led Zeppelin is overkill. However, in both cases without the notes disputes are bound to occur. I am constantly amazed that editors will remove, tag or dispute facts on talk pages without reading past the lead, but it does happen. Sswonk (talk) 22:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether we're talking about just footnotes as opposed to citations or both; people use the word "footnotes" both ways. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that a year ago, it was a common request at WP:FAC to remove all <ref> tags from the lead section, but there have been many FAC's this year that passed with multiple <ref>'s in the lead. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Note also that the common names of some birds are correctly hyphenated, for example the Great Black-backed Gull.
Maybe so, but the names of a large number of things are correctly hyphenated, and I don't really see why this one example is singled out for mention. Should we just delete it? Matt 03:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.30.114 (talk)
I agree, Anonymous. It's altogether too specific. Since this looks uncontroversial I'll revert it myself right now.
Undoubtedly, this is a remnant of a dispute about that specific article. The existence of a dispute suggests that we should say something, especially since Great Black-backed Gull appears to be correct. But it may be sufficient to say that hyphenated adjectives, on which we already have a bullet point, also occur in proper names. I included the example, as harmless and clarifying, but I don't care if it goes out again. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Having it as an example embedded in a more general point seems absolutely fine to me; it was just the prominence of the original standalone statement that seemed weird. But I'm not sure the new wording is exactly right:
Many compound adjectives that are hyphenated when used attributively (before the noun they qualify—a light-blue handbag), are not hyphenated when used predicatively (after the noun—the handbag was light blue); this includes usage in proper names, such as Great Black-backed Gull.
This implies that if you wanted to say "the Gull was black-backed" then you would not use a hyphen, which seems wrong to me. Matt 00:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.90.235 (talk)
A section for commas
While I'm focusing on MOS I thought I might re-configure just a little. It was strange to have the shortcut WP:COMMA pointing users to a section headed Serial commas. I've fixed that (here and at the redirect itself), and written a single sentence under the general heading Commas:
Commas are the most frequently used marks in punctuation, but also the most difficult to use well. See the article Comma (punctuation) for general principles governing usage.
Then follows the existing section Serial commas, demoted one level.
Obviously more should be said about the comma in general, not just about the serial comma. With my referral to Comma (punctuation) I've made a non-committal start. I hope that is not controversial. Others might now fill in details here, parallel with our treatment of all the other punctuation marks. I might well join in.
I don't think the Manual of Style can refer to an encyclopedia article as a source of guidance. The article is (or should be) completely descriptive, the MoS is (at least to some extent) prescriptive.--Kotniski (talk) 07:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why not; to the extent that we are advising people to do what English actually does, the article is exactly what we want. (It does not in fact discuss Common misuses of the comma, although it could: that grammarians regard some actually existing commas as "wrong" and "bad writing" is a verifiable fact about them.) SeptentrionalisPMAnderson15:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
A section for apostrophes
As with commas (see last section above), there was no section for apostrophes. I have therefore added that as a subsection of Punctuation immediately before Quotation marks (with which it shares issues), and added or altered internal links for the existing scattered treatment of the apostrophe in MOS. I also linked to the article Apostrophe, which gives excellent guidance for usage and surveys many of the alternative schools of thought. I also moved something about Ayin and similar characters to this new section, since that is more rational than covering it under Quotation marks (where is was for want of a better home).
Someone might like to make a shortcut link to this new apostrophe section, yes? WP:APOST?
Expanding and renaming a section: Colons and semicolons
Following the introduction of new sections for commas and apostrophes, it seemed rational to expand the section on colons to include semicolons as well. The two often operate together in the same sentence, and are frequently confused; so it is well to deal with them together. (It is also proper that they come immediately after commas, as they do.) I have deleted some information that is too obvious, or that should be addressed more systematically elsewhere for all punctuation (concerning spaces adjacent to punctuation marks).
There remains a general question about how much detail of this sort to include: but at least our treatment of punctuation is now more uniform and complete, with reasonable cross-linking.
Those would probably be clearer divided into a section for each mark. These do not overlap significantly; the use of colons as strong semi-colons, while their original function, is obsolete, and we don't even mention it. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson16:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
