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::::::::The article is about a rivalry between two college football teams that has earned a specific nickname. It is not about the teams themselves. As with the general use of logos, the individual teams' logos on this page cannot be used just for identification, but must be accompanied by commentary and criticism with respect for the logo's images to be included, otherwise it is simply decorative, since those logos, for a reader who has no idea about college sports but needs to research this particular team, will not be helpful in anyway, at least given that one can clickthru either team to get the full logo or can look at the game's logo to see parts of the teams' logo. Again, logos are historicly only used on the single page of the company or organization the logo represents. -] 12:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | ::::::::The article is about a rivalry between two college football teams that has earned a specific nickname. It is not about the teams themselves. As with the general use of logos, the individual teams' logos on this page cannot be used just for identification, but must be accompanied by commentary and criticism with respect for the logo's images to be included, otherwise it is simply decorative, since those logos, for a reader who has no idea about college sports but needs to research this particular team, will not be helpful in anyway, at least given that one can clickthru either team to get the full logo or can look at the game's logo to see parts of the teams' logo. Again, logos are historicly only used on the single page of the company or organization the logo represents. -] 12:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::If you don't think rivalry articles are about specific college football teams, than you have no clue about college football and really shouldn't be chiming in on the matter. About 95% of these articles do not have "nicknames" they are simply "Team A-Team B Rivalry" so the team logos are definitely warranted. You may want to look a little more into this, rahter than just looking at one article. Lord forbid you collect an informed opinion. ] (]) 18:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | :::::::::If you don't think rivalry articles are about specific college football teams, than you have no clue about college football and really shouldn't be chiming in on the matter. About 95% of these articles do not have "nicknames" they are simply "Team A-Team B Rivalry" so the team logos are definitely warranted. You may want to look a little more into this, rahter than just looking at one article. Lord forbid you collect an informed opinion. ] (]) 18:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | ||
:::::::::*If you can't keep your comments civil, then please do not post them. There's an answer to your query, but I certainly do not see, and I hope Masem equally does not see, a reason to respond when confronted with behavior like this. Thank you, --] (]) 20:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | |||
:: Alas, this is something that I find so incredibly mind-blowing - People get too caught up in the bureaucratic ways of the project to actually aid the project. As to your posed questions, (the "Why is that?" sort), I'm afraid that I'm not the one who can answer that. Undoubtedly consensus discussions, a bit of chance here and there. Ok, so non-free images aren't tops on our list of wanted things. Some things are going to undoubtedly be non-free. But, you know what? I don't think anyone, save non-free image crusaders, are going to complain about an extra image or two on a page. People come here to get information on something. They don't come here to look if the article has an incredibly ill-defined "limit" of non-free images. I can promise you that, even if only one person looks at that article and says, "Look, that image is there, that helps me gain a better understanding of this article" (of course that's not what would be said, but you get what I'm meaning), that will be one more person than persons coming on here, save for those who are trying to remove these on here, that say the opposite. | :: Alas, this is something that I find so incredibly mind-blowing - People get too caught up in the bureaucratic ways of the project to actually aid the project. As to your posed questions, (the "Why is that?" sort), I'm afraid that I'm not the one who can answer that. Undoubtedly consensus discussions, a bit of chance here and there. Ok, so non-free images aren't tops on our list of wanted things. Some things are going to undoubtedly be non-free. But, you know what? I don't think anyone, save non-free image crusaders, are going to complain about an extra image or two on a page. People come here to get information on something. They don't come here to look if the article has an incredibly ill-defined "limit" of non-free images. I can promise you that, even if only one person looks at that article and says, "Look, that image is there, that helps me gain a better understanding of this article" (of course that's not what would be said, but you get what I'm meaning), that will be one more person than persons coming on here, save for those who are trying to remove these on here, that say the opposite. | ||
:: I have no doubt that this will be shot down in any number of ways, and in retrospect will probably mean little to nothing in this discussion. But is deleting possibly helpful images really aiding the construction of an encyclopedia? ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>)</span> 04:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC) | :: I have no doubt that this will be shot down in any number of ways, and in retrospect will probably mean little to nothing in this discussion. But is deleting possibly helpful images really aiding the construction of an encyclopedia? ] (<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub>)</span> 04:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:43, 11 December 2008
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Archives |
Critical commentary
Unresolved – Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)What's the point of allowing non-free images to be used for critical commentary? Wouldn't original critical commentary violate Misplaced Pages:No original research and WP:SOAP, as well as violating Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view unless all major viewpoints are represented? -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 01:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- take a look at Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima it is an article about a picture, not an event almost everything in that article is critical commentary, as it discusses the image, usage, and effects of that particular image. critical commentary is by default neither positive nor negative. it is just sourced important commentary about said image. β 02:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- "Critical commentary" does not mean "A Misplaced Pages editor's critical commentary". In some cases (see Guernica, Mona Lisa, or for that matter Virgin Killer), an image may have well been the subject of significant sourced critical commentary outside of Misplaced Pages. It is not original research to write what reliable sources such as well-respected publications have to say about them, any more than it's ever original research to cite and attribute a source. Seraphimblade 08:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- IMO those are merely reports and summaries of existing critical commentary rather than critical commentary in and of themselves, which would be sufficient to meet the "in the context of critical commentary" criterion for cover art, but insufficient to meet the "for critical commentary" criterion used for screenshots, visual art and promotion material. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- I just looked through the archives. The last time this received serious, in-depth discussion was in What is "critical commentary"? in archive 31. In that discussion, the consensus was that "critical commentary" basically means "criticism and / or commentary", and we only use the misleading "critical commentary" term because it's a legal term. If so, why doesn't the guideline explain the term or at least mention the fact that it's using the American legal definition of "critical commentary" rather than the plain English definition? -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- IMO those are merely reports and summaries of existing critical commentary rather than critical commentary in and of themselves, which would be sufficient to meet the "in the context of critical commentary" criterion for cover art, but insufficient to meet the "for critical commentary" criterion used for screenshots, visual art and promotion material. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Template:RFCpol I've added an RFC. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand the basis of the question. To me (non-American, non-legal), "critical commentary" means casting a critical eye on the subject. That eye may discern a variety of positive and negative aspects - the role of a critic is not solely to disparage, it is to make balanced observations. Furthermore, critical commentary must always come from outside of Misplaced Pages, since we are here to report, not to comment by ourselves (well, in mainspace anyway :). Is there a mismatch in my understanding? Franamax (talk) 08:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I think by the sound of it you may have a mismatch, and I'd recommend you do read the discussion that Gordon linked above, particularly the contributions from User:Wikidemo, since Wikidemo is actually a US Copyright lawyer in real life. The point is, as Gordon has said above, that "critical commentary" is an American legal term which essentially covers anything justifiable as "purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research" (17 USC 106). But see the earlier discussion, particularly Wikidemo's comments, for a fuller presentation. Jheald (talk) 10:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm - that pretty much matches my non/non-view - critical commentary means talking about something, not just saying something exists. I like this quote from Wikidemo: "a requirement that an image be used for purposes of commentary means that it has to actually support and expand on what is said in the text. Merely proving with a picture that the text is true is not adding any commentary value". Franamax (talk) 11:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- In response to your first comment, that's also how I interpret "critical commentary" as a term in plain English, but including one's own subjective judgements and interpretations of a work is prohibited by Misplaced Pages:No original research, while summarizing what critics have said about something is merely reporting or summarizing criticism, not making it. Basically, I have four questions. Does this policy use "critical commentary" in the plain English sense, or in the legal sense? If this policy uses "critical commentary" in the plain English sense, isn't everything encompassed by the term prohibited by Misplaced Pages:No original research? If "critical commentary" is used in the legal sense, why doesn't the guideline explain what it means in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Explain jargon? If "critical commentary" is used in the legal sense and cannot be easily defined, why isn't there at least a statement that it cannot be easily defined, followed by a list of examples like the one at Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks? -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm - that pretty much matches my non/non-view - critical commentary means talking about something, not just saying something exists. I like this quote from Wikidemo: "a requirement that an image be used for purposes of commentary means that it has to actually support and expand on what is said in the text. Merely proving with a picture that the text is true is not adding any commentary value". Franamax (talk) 11:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I think by the sound of it you may have a mismatch, and I'd recommend you do read the discussion that Gordon linked above, particularly the contributions from User:Wikidemo, since Wikidemo is actually a US Copyright lawyer in real life. The point is, as Gordon has said above, that "critical commentary" is an American legal term which essentially covers anything justifiable as "purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research" (17 USC 106). But see the earlier discussion, particularly Wikidemo's comments, for a fuller presentation. Jheald (talk) 10:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Actually, in reference to something that was said a few posts up, "critical commentary" is NOT a term used in U.S. copyright law, and Wikidemo has been very clear about how in that sense it is a very POOR term to use. It's an amalgamation of two SEPARATE terms that show up in fair use discussions: criticism and commentary. You can look up my past comments on this subject, but I believe that the term is very poorly defined. It either means something that would plainly be barred by WP:NOR, or it covers everything we do at every article. I can't imagine very many images of an article subject that do not "support and expand upon" what's in the text. Croctotheface (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would support changing this phrase as well. I did a Westlaw search for the phrase a while ago, and got very few results. There is no use using a faux-legalese term that doesn't have an ordinary meaning. If we want to be more demanding than simply "commentary" we should articulate what we mean in plain English. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, let's try this, replace all references to "critical commentary" with "sourced and verifiable encyclopedic content and discussion in relation to the non-free work", since that's what "critical commentary" is. ViperSnake151 02:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
"Final" Ruling: Galleries of Non-Free Images - Acceptable or Delete?
I don't think we came to a complete understanding given we have like 5 threads trying to deal with the problem and it's become a mess with the arguing and bickering and people wanting to keep images for "Nostalgia's sake." So has there been a consensus or not? Galleries of Non-Free Images are acceptable, or "shoot on site?"--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 13:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Like everything else, there is no hard and fast rule (and never any final rulings). It is very usually the case that galleries fail, on rare occasions they pass. Use the criteria already listed on the project page. WilyD 13:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- rule of thumb, NFC galleries are to be removed. β 21:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Galleries don't get removed just because they are galleries. The images within them that don't meet NFCC are removed. In most cases, that will leave an empty gallery. Franamax (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- I do think we can state that the use of the gallery feature of Mediawiki to display one or more non-free images (among other possible free images) should be avoided and discourages save in highly exceptional cases, if only because such galleries tend to separate the image from the text that should be providing critical commentary on that image; instead, if multiple non-free images are to be used, they should be placed as regular images, user-created montages (with the understanding that a montage of x images counts as x images, not 1) or imageframes to group images together if they need to be put near the same paragraph of text. I don't want to say that non-free image galleries are never allowed, and thus urge that only exceptional cases may this be used (though what would be an exceptional case, I don't know presently). --MASEM 23:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Here are my two cents, galleries of non-free images should only be used with either commentary, or usage BEYOND the scope of a gallery instead of just being a gallery. I've seen those movie channels use galleries of logos as a fancier way of sorting the different multiplexes (like see The Movie Network for example). In my mind, the previous identities of a network is often a significant local interest, as some stations have been known for their past logos. Though for stations that have a logo so famous that they keep the design the same even through every little tweak (like WISN-TV, that is going overboard in my mind. So, we should go under this principle, if the content itself can increase the reader's understanding, arranging them into one place can help increase it more. But, we have to keep a balance. ViperSnake151 23:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- Galleries (within articles) with extensive captions can be be very effective in Visual arts articles, where more images than fit the text conveniently are often needed. These should be able to include non-free images where the usual free-use criteria are met. That is quite different from indiscriminate galleries of non-free images with little information, especial;ly "stand-alone" ones. The current guideline is a hopelessly unclear stand-off between different points of view & really needs clarifying. Johnbod (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kat Walsh posted on the Foundation mailing list when first explaining the introduction of the Foundation licensing policy:
- Some Wikimedia projects use media that is not free at all, under a doctrine of "fair use" or "fair dealing". There are some works, primarily historically important photographs and significant modern artworks, that we can not realistically expect to be released under a free content license, but that are hard to discuss in an educational context without including the media itself. Because the inability to include these works limits scholarship and criticism, in many jurisdictions people may use such works under limited conditions without having license or permission.
- The chances of getting a free licence on major artworks in copyright is virtually nil, yet this is one area, where, if a world class reference work is to be achieved, the inclusion of sufficient examples is essential; and sufficient is likely to exceed what is normally considered ample in other subjects. It is impossible to replace these images with words, which will undoubtedly give a completely misleading impression without examples. Nor is it sufficient to just give one example of, e.g. Abstract Expressionism, because the essence of a movement is only distilled through both similarities and differences evidenced in the artists of any movement. To a certain extent in this subject area, images have to do the job of and replace what might be achieved by text in other subjects. This is the reason why many art books are so heavily illustrated. Visual arts articles will often work best with a high image to text ratio. What one footballer looks like in comparison with another does enhance the reader's appreciation of a football team, but what they look like is not the fundamental reason for the topic. With a piece of visual art, it is. A gallery can be ideal, because it shows the works immediately next to each other, thus allowing the reader to make comparisons. This has been a cause of a certain amount of trouble in the past, and it needs to be approached with a sensitivity to and understanding of the special needs of the subject, and with, I suggest, more latitude than is normally allowed. Ty 02:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that by creating an exception for one field, other areas will envoke WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and demand that they have galleries and the like. We are not denying the ability to show artwork that is non-free, but we may need to limit artwork to non-gallery uses - if users want to compare art, they may have to open two windows. (that said, if a reliable source commented on the comparisons of two different works of art, a side-by-side comparison on the same article makes sense). --MASEM 03:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's not a problem, because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS specifically says that other stuff existing is not a justification. I am suggesting, just as Kat Walsh pointed out, that modern art works do merit special treatment. Ty 03:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, it's not a justification, but people will still point to any place that we've said a gallery is ok, and demand similar overallowance of non-free image, which usually descend into shouting matches. So far, the only rationale I'm seeing here for galleries is that it can be helpful to show different artwork in the same space but without a reason to compare and constast the art within the text, this can be done by clicking through to the individual articles the art is located on. --MASEM 04:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The assumption here that there will be "individual articles the art is located on", sadly, is likely to be wrong - such articles will rarely exist. Johnbod (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If there is no individual article on a piece of art, then there must be critical commentary on that piece of art somewhere in the article that it is being used in or we shouldn't have the picture at all. From what I've seen at the VA articles, these galleries are to point out examples of work, but additional commentary is not often provided. (I will go the way that I would expect that if a piece of artwork must be part of a arts article because it is critical to show something, there is bound to be critical commentary around to make an article for that piece of art to start with. --MASEM 12:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed..we are in agreement that text references to specific artworks is essential and many VA articles will be adding addition commentary to reflect that understanding..Modernist (talk) 13:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- If there is no individual article on a piece of art, then there must be critical commentary on that piece of art somewhere in the article that it is being used in or we shouldn't have the picture at all. From what I've seen at the VA articles, these galleries are to point out examples of work, but additional commentary is not often provided. (I will go the way that I would expect that if a piece of artwork must be part of a arts article because it is critical to show something, there is bound to be critical commentary around to make an article for that piece of art to start with. --MASEM 12:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The assumption here that there will be "individual articles the art is located on", sadly, is likely to be wrong - such articles will rarely exist. Johnbod (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, it's not a justification, but people will still point to any place that we've said a gallery is ok, and demand similar overallowance of non-free image, which usually descend into shouting matches. So far, the only rationale I'm seeing here for galleries is that it can be helpful to show different artwork in the same space but without a reason to compare and constast the art within the text, this can be done by clicking through to the individual articles the art is located on. --MASEM 04:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's not a problem, because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS specifically says that other stuff existing is not a justification. I am suggesting, just as Kat Walsh pointed out, that modern art works do merit special treatment. Ty 03:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that by creating an exception for one field, other areas will envoke WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and demand that they have galleries and the like. We are not denying the ability to show artwork that is non-free, but we may need to limit artwork to non-gallery uses - if users want to compare art, they may have to open two windows. (that said, if a reliable source commented on the comparisons of two different works of art, a side-by-side comparison on the same article makes sense). --MASEM 03:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kat Walsh posted on the Foundation mailing list when first explaining the introduction of the Foundation licensing policy:
- To make it more concrete, let me put it this way: I know of exactly one article that uses nonfree images in a gallery and is compliant with the policy, it's Padme Amidala. Others may exist, but working with images a good deal as an administrator for some time, it's the only one I've seen. WilyD 03:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The example you give is a case that applies extensively to the visual arts. Ty 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Though to a VA editor, it's an odd one, because there is so much text without images, a luxury we rarely have. There are other examples that have stable galleries, but of course people are reluctant to point to them here in the current athmosphere. Johnbod (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've no doubt there are. Certainly "modern art" is far more like to come across examples editing than I do writing mostly history, geography, astronomy. But as an admin who deals with images, it's the only example I've seen, is all. I thought an example/case study might be helpful. WilyD 13:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Though to a VA editor, it's an odd one, because there is so much text without images, a luxury we rarely have. There are other examples that have stable galleries, but of course people are reluctant to point to them here in the current athmosphere. Johnbod (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- The example you give is a case that applies extensively to the visual arts. Ty 03:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- As is often the case with works of modern art images are necessary to demonstrate the subtle differentials of meaning that define differing works and the distinctions between them. Images with Fair Use Rationales become more and more common in depictions of most 20th century artworks and 21st century artworks. Educational and scholarly wikipedia articles that are written to cover the subject of the visual arts would be severely handicapped by restrictions on the necessary images that actually describe and illustrate the subject and the meaning of the works of art and the article. The quality of the encyclopedia itself becomes questioned with such restrictions in this particular area where visual imagery is all....I agree above in that special latitude need apply based on wisdom and common sense, and in the spirit of education....Modernist (talk) 03:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Galleries in many cases are the most efficient space saving and clear way of illustrating artwork. Art is shown to a great effect in galleries. Especially to demonstrate a particular meaning..Modernist (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Given that gallery captions can be pretty long, what is the rationale for completely excluding non-free images from galleries? It is clearly not the case that sufficient discussion of an image in text to justify a non-free rationale has to be long enough to "cover" the whole size of the image in normal text - there are thousands of approved examples where the discussion is not that long. By their nature visual arts articles are discussing images the whole time, and constantly run out of space for images. Johnbod (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- And those articles are probably acceptable with an image. But it's not often that more than one is necessary, and where there is an exception, the image should be placed near the article text that discusses it. Seraphimblade 15:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- My point is (again) why is long caption text not sufficient - what's magic about article text? One non-free image is no use for a survey article on a movement in modern art. Johnbod (talk) 00:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's not the position where the discussion ended up, when the section was created and this was thrashed out at some length. In fact, if you consult back to that discussion, you will find one touchstone was the "Torchwood monsters" article. There was a strong party taking the view that if the article was to be properly comprehensive, then most of the Torchwood monsters should be illustrated: that this would significantly improve reader knowledge of the topic, in a way that could not and would not be achieved with less. My understanding was that the discussion was left with an agreement to disagree, which is why the rule-of-thumb proposal of no more than 5 has been left with a disputed/discuss tag since that time. Jheald (talk) 21:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- Even 5 is generally unacceptable, as in the Torchwood article—most if not all of those are described fine with text. Take, for example, "sex gas"—I would learn nothing of what that's supposed to be from the image, but the description is clear and makes sense of it quite well. It's excessive fiction anyway, but at the very least the images need cutting, I'll have a look when I have more time later. I don't see how any of those pass #8, but it's possible one or two might. The Torchwood article is an excellent example of the problem, what do we need so many nonfree images in that article for? (I would also question what we need the article for, it's largely unsourced and all plot, but that's irrelevant to a nonfree media discussion.) Seraphimblade 21:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's not the position where the discussion ended up, when the section was created and this was thrashed out at some length. In fact, if you consult back to that discussion, you will find one touchstone was the "Torchwood monsters" article. There was a strong party taking the view that if the article was to be properly comprehensive, then most of the Torchwood monsters should be illustrated: that this would significantly improve reader knowledge of the topic, in a way that could not and would not be achieved with less. My understanding was that the discussion was left with an agreement to disagree, which is why the rule-of-thumb proposal of no more than 5 has been left with a disputed/discuss tag since that time. Jheald (talk) 21:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've seen very few image galleries that pass every tenet of WP:NFCC, and as mentioned above, those that do are generally to do with film and visual arts. That, indeed, is why Misplaced Pages:NFC#Non-free_image_use_in_galleries is a guideline and not a policy. I can see no reason why the logo image galleries discussed here pass WP:NFCC#8 (and indeed, WP:NFCC#3a), in relation to the article they are in. They should all go. Black Kite 16:03, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
*sigh* My Kingdom for a ruling!! --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 06:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Having being somewhat involved in the previous discussion on television station historical logos; thought I'd post a few of my own observations on this:
1. The non-free content issue as it relates to the use of historical station logos in articles, essentially seems to boil down to two areas of debate. The first being a legal nature as to determine whether a group of non-free television station logos within a subheading pose a potential liability to the project under fair-use law of which much of the NFCC derives from. The other being the encyclopedic/content value to say if such images generally improve or detract from the article they are associated with.
2. Speaking to the legal/copyright issues, during the earlier discussion had this year regarding the use of these images, because there was such a divergence of opinion on whether or not these specific non-free images grouped together in a station's article posed a potential abuse of fair-use for non-free images, the input of Mike Godwin was sought as being a unique and knowledgeable reference of expertise that no one else here is able to provide. Clearly this was not a broad edict or directive dictated from the Foundation on high in regards to NFCC in general and the question posed was explicitly directed to the usage of past logos of individual television stations being grouped together to communicate historical progression. That said, I personally find it to be a little short-sighted if not counterproductive to make the claim of his opinion being irrelevant as much of NFCC is derived from fair-use copyright law.
3. On the content issue, logos used historically by television stations as a primary means of identification to the public I believe do have significant inherent encyclopedic value for an article on that station to not only show their historical progression but significance as their identification of an era or more usually spanning many years if not decades.
The most prudent proposal that I've read thus far is to approach these issues on a case by case, article by article basis and build consensus on that level whether it be on an article or project's talk page. This was done a while back in regards to television station logos and in the end agreement was able to be reached on both sides with concessions also made on both sides of the argument. In my opinion, NFCC has increasingly been used as excuse for individual editors to make massive blind edits to hundreds of articles without first making a genuine effort to reach consensus with other involved editors to improve the content of the article overall. Making any sweeping rulings like this only seems to open the opportunity for more of this kind of abuse. Tmore3 (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
- One could equally point out that the supposed inconsistencies in NFCC have also been used as an excuse for many editors to plaster multiple copyright violations all over Misplaced Pages articles, and then wikilawyer over their retention, and if that isn't the definition of abuse, I don't know what is. Black Kite 10:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- One eminent abuse - abuse of language anyway - is to call legal fair use a "copyright violation" :-) Jheald (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- They may be "legal fair use" in the US, but they're still copyright violations. We can't help the vagaries of the US legal system. More to the point, they're still against the mission of the foundation, perhaps that language makes it clearer. Black Kite 19:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- No. A copyright violation is something which is illegal. Fair use is not illegal, it is a First Amendment right. There are enough corporations that want to fence in that 1st Amendment right, we shouldn't talk it down ourselves. Read Duke University's graphic novel Bound by Law to get an idea of the land grab that the rights industry is sliding us towards, and why it's a bad idea. Whatever your view of fair use on Misplaced Pages, fair use in the real world is too important and too precious to besmirch like this. Think twice before you casually disparage it. Jheald (talk) 22:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think the use of the term is helpful though, because it reminds editors what is happening when they stray outside the narrow bounds that "fair use" embodies. And, of course, our NFCC is much more narrow than that (though you wouldn't think that from reading the views of some editors above). Black Kite 08:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- No. A copyright violation is something which is illegal. Fair use is not illegal, it is a First Amendment right. There are enough corporations that want to fence in that 1st Amendment right, we shouldn't talk it down ourselves. Read Duke University's graphic novel Bound by Law to get an idea of the land grab that the rights industry is sliding us towards, and why it's a bad idea. Whatever your view of fair use on Misplaced Pages, fair use in the real world is too important and too precious to besmirch like this. Think twice before you casually disparage it. Jheald (talk) 22:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- They may be "legal fair use" in the US, but they're still copyright violations. We can't help the vagaries of the US legal system. More to the point, they're still against the mission of the foundation, perhaps that language makes it clearer. Black Kite 19:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- One eminent abuse - abuse of language anyway - is to call legal fair use a "copyright violation" :-) Jheald (talk) 14:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Comics in the public domain
I was reading a discussion at ], which combined with this upenn.edu page, seems to be saying that the first two issues of Whiz Comics (and some other comics) are in the public domain. Anyone have a clue? Can Image:Whiz2.JPG be used without a fair use rational? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well I'm not a lawyer, but I think I'm finding evidence that the first two whiz comics are in the public domain, and a lot of other less known comics. For instance, that upenn site lists Time magazine as having issues printed before January 29, 1934 as being in the public domain. http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:Time-magazine-woodwin.jpg says the same thing except it has the date July 6, 1936. Some superman stuff is in the public domain, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:Fleishersuperman.jpg and Superman (1940s cartoons). I'm posting this in a number of places trying to find someone who knows. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Battle of Iwo Jima
I am amused by User:Megapixie's edit here, as he has now removed the exact example used in the policy WP:NFC#Unacceptable use Images # 4 to illustrate when fair-use is allowed, with the edit summary ""Raising the flag" is NOT fair use in this context - per Policy. Replacing with another suitable image." This must be something of a record in the annals of policy creep. Johnbod (talk) 22:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wrong. The article that policy cites is Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, an article specifically discussing the photograph.
- Agency photos cannot be used as a general illustration of the subject of the photo, eg Battle of Iwo Jima; they can only be used specifically in the context of the discussion of the photo itself.
- IMO failure to observe this distinction is probably the most serious systematic image problem we have on WP at the moment. Jheald (talk) 23:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- IMO WP:UCS says it's OK to use in that context...Modernist (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
- Common sense can't supersede US copyright law. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- IMO WP:UCS says it's OK to use in that context...Modernist (talk) 23:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Jheald, you are wrong. The guideline text is: "unless the image has achieved iconic status as a representation of the war or is historically important in the context of the war (e.g. Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima)." The image is historically important in the context of the war and can therefore be used in an article about the war, not just in an article about the image. Ty 00:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Correct - the policy example would make no sense at all if it was only referring to the article on the photo. Johnbod (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but we can't use a copyright photo just because we want to. Use of the photograph simply to illustrate the battle is not what is legally called a "transformative use". Rather, it is exactly the use the photograph was taken for, and exactly the use for which people have to pay AP their licensing fees.
- The use becomes transformative if the article, or the section of the article, is specifically a commentary on the photograph itself, and its cultural and historical significance.
- If the guideline doesn't make that clear, then the guideline needs to be rewritten. Because that's the legal position. Jheald (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- That is your interpretation of the law, which is a notoriously unclear one, and an interpretation which is against long-standing wikipedia consensus, as shown in the guideline and, for example, on {{Non-free historic image}}. An article which sets the image in its full historic context affects a transformation of the image, which is not then seen in the same way as it would be in isolation. Ty 01:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- See the discussion at Template talk:Non-free historic image about the copyright violation problems with this template. IMO we might be better off without this template because it seems to justify all sorts of CVs. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- And it is not that the guideline "doesn't make that clear", but that the guideline clearly says something completely different, but is being ignored. Ishould mention I raised the matter at the Village Pump also. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- That is your interpretation of the law, which is a notoriously unclear one, and an interpretation which is against long-standing wikipedia consensus, as shown in the guideline and, for example, on {{Non-free historic image}}. An article which sets the image in its full historic context affects a transformation of the image, which is not then seen in the same way as it would be in isolation. Ty 01:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Proposal
I propose adding the following wording in italics to unacceptable image use #4, to clarify the point:
An image whose subject happens to be a war, to illustrate an article on the war, unless the image has achieved iconic status as a representation of the war or is historically important in the context of the war and the image is being used in a section of the article specifically analysing the image's historical importance or iconic status (e.g. Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima).
Jheald (talk) 11:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
I support this change.Per howcheng below, I now think that this wording is that great either. But in any event, some change is necessary because the current wording is unacceptable. Jheald's explanation of the relevant law is correct - and this is not a "notoriously unclear" aspect of copyright law. Transformative use is pretty much the key to understanding fair use. It is a copyright violation to swipe AP's image because it happens to be a great way to illustrate the Battle of Iwo Jima (as evidenced by its achieving iconic status). AP took this picture exactly so it could charge people for this use! It is fair use, on the other hand, to use the photo in an article about the photo, because it is transforming the photo, treating it as an artifact in its own right. In short, {{Non-free historic image}} is frequently misused to justify copyright violations. We should clarify the examples and the template text. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)- Note that this is not "policy creep" - the current example is plainly incorrect. If we are going to have an example, it should be an acceptable one. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- If this isn't "policy creep" then it's "policy absurd" lacking common sense, and a misinterpretation of the context of use here...Modernist (talk) 16:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Note that this is not "policy creep" - the current example is plainly incorrect. If we are going to have an example, it should be an acceptable one. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose The proposed wording does not work. It retains the link to Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, which is clearly not the article the example intends to refer to - that is an article on the photo itself, and the degree of iconic status is just not relevant to fair use there. This is the link that has confused some into misreading the example. Equally, if "specific analysis" of the image is required, there is no point at all in the "iconic status" wording, indeed no need to have the whole exception there. But to remove the whole exception clearly would be a change in policy - downgrading to nothing all educational/non-profit factors & relying wholly on transformation. This approach runs against both US law and the Misplaced Pages Foundation declared approach, and should be resisted. I would add that Battle of Iwo Jima has sufficient analysis of the specific image to justify fair-use even if this wording were to be implemented, both in the lead, just opposite where this image was removed, and a much longer section slightly lower down. So even on this policy creep wording, it's removal was unjustified. Johnbod (talk) 16:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Oppose.As I tried to do in this edit, it's not that the guideline is incorrect -- it's that the example is. By using Raising the Flag, we create a conflict between #4 and #5, the latter requiring us to NOT use the photo because there's an entire article about it. Instead, the lead image in Six-Day War would be a much better example (although now that I look at the article more closely, it really needs more discussion to justify its use, but IIRC this one photo is emblematic of the war from Israel's perspective). howcheng {chat} 17:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)- N.B. I just added more details about the photo to the article, which should now easily pass NFCC. howcheng {chat} 17:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- But do you believe some change is still required, then? BTW your changes have just been reverted. If the text is WP:UNDUE as claimed, does the image even meet NFCC in that article? Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I unreverted and explained to Nudve why it was there, and he has agreed that the passage should be there. howcheng {chat} 18:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC) PS -- I guess I am not opposed to extra wording, just the example.
- The western wall photo should at most be thumbnailed next to the section discussing it. It should not be being used display-sized as the main photo, nowhere near the discussion of it. As regards Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, there is no conflict between #4 and #5, because "Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima" is the article entirely about the photograph. Jheald (talk) 19:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- The conflict is when people use "Raising the Flag" in other articles beyond the article about the photo itself, which prohibited by #5, but #4 implies that they can do so. howcheng {chat} 19:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- The western wall photo should at most be thumbnailed next to the section discussing it. It should not be being used display-sized as the main photo, nowhere near the discussion of it. As regards Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima, there is no conflict between #4 and #5, because "Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima" is the article entirely about the photograph. Jheald (talk) 19:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I unreverted and explained to Nudve why it was there, and he has agreed that the passage should be there. howcheng {chat} 18:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC) PS -- I guess I am not opposed to extra wording, just the example.
- But do you believe some change is still required, then? BTW your changes have just been reverted. If the text is WP:UNDUE as claimed, does the image even meet NFCC in that article? Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- N.B. I just added more details about the photo to the article, which should now easily pass NFCC. howcheng {chat} 17:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
A response to Johnbod's comment above: Is it a bit hazardous to be relying on our educational/non-profit status solely. From our article Fair use:
- "The subfactor mentioned in the legislation above, 'whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes,' has recently been deemphasized in some Circuits 'since many, if not most, secondary uses seek at least some measure of commercial gain from their use.' More important is whether the use fulfills any of the 'preamble purposes' also mentioned in the legislation above, as these have been interpreted as paradigmatically 'transformative.'"
The analysis in the case cited is very persuasive and is worth a read. On a tangentially related note, there was a recent related holding in the patent context: "our precedent does not immunize any conduct that is in keeping with the alleged infringer's legitimate business, regardless of its commercial implications. For example, major research universities, such as Duke, often sanction and fund research projects with arguably no commercial application whatsoever. However these projects unmistakably further the institutions' legitimate business objectives, including educating and enlightening students and faculty participating in these projects. The projects also serve, for example, to increase the status of the institution and lure lucrative research grants, students and faculty.". See also Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music:
- "The central purpose of this investigation is to see, in Justice Story’s words, whether the new work merely “supersede the objects” of the original creation, or instead adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the first with new expression, meaning, or message; it asks, in other words, whether and to what extent the new work is “transformative.” Although such transformative use is not absolutely necessary for a finding of fair use, the goal of copyright, to promote science and the arts, is generally furthered by the creation of transformative works. Such works thus lie at the heart of the fair use doctrine’s guarantee of breathing space within the confines of copyright, and the more transformative the new work, the less will be the significance of other factors, like commercialism, that may weigh against a finding of fair use." (citations omitted.)
Clearly transformation is at the heart of fair use analysis. It should be at the heart of our NFCC analysis as well. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am by no means proposing we rely "on our educational/non-profit status solely" - you are the one resting everything on transformation, which, I repeat, reflects neither the law nor Foundation policy. Are you saying "iconic status" is wholly irrelevant? If we are quoting cases, Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation would seem more relevant here. Johnbod (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Transformation is only one of the four factors of free use. There are a number of cases where the use of the copyrighted material was not deemed to be transformative, but the use was still ruled to be fair anyway, such as Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc.. However, those cases aren't always applicable to us. For our purposes, yes transformation is indeed important. The story of the JonBenet Ramsey photos is a good case study. howcheng {chat} 20:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Non-free (as in speech) is non-free, no matter how much fair use in copyright law is strengthened or weakened. Even if US copyright law explicitly stated "all reproductions of copyrighted work for non-commercial purposes is completely legal", our NFC policy cannot be reflected to accommodate that change because reproductions of copyrighted work still carry non-free use issues, and thus require rationale to be used on en.wiki in light of the free content mission. That's why it's important to recognize that the NFC policy is not derived from copyright law but from the free content approach. --MASEM 18:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Except our NFC policy also is intended to be well within the bounds of what is allowed by copyright law. These non-transformative uses of historic images, especially those by press agencies, are not well within these bounds. To that extent that our NFC policy aims to ensure that wikipedia's use of these photos is legally sound, it must track what the law says. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- In response to this, I have amended {{Non-free historic image}}. ViperSnake151 12:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
No time limit
I read somewhere (but cannot find it any more - old talk pages don't seem to show up in Google, and the internal search is no good for this) that there is "no time limit" as such, and this means that "replaceable" applies not only to things for which someome has a replacement here and now, but for anything for which replacement is or will be possible. The images are Image:Ldn Ovrgrd Train.jpg and Image:Ldn Ovrgrd Train Internal.JPG. The usual exemption here for future things is when it's not certain that they will exist, however in this case we are not only past the point of having any doubt, but the subject now exists. This photo is several months old, and I am reliably informed that the first units of the real thing are doing the rounds in testing. As I understand it, "reasonably" does not extend to having to know where something is at any given time, otherwise we could say that photographs of anything not rooted in the ground (including people) are not replaceable. I'd like to hear a few other people's thoughts. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 10:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'll say this again pretty much. It wasn't replaceable at the time it was uploaded, but it could be now. We just need someone to get off their office chair and get us the goods. ViperSnake151 12:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, but your response was one of the reasons I asked here instead. I had hoped for an answer from someone that actually understands Misplaced Pages policy. This may be a grey area, but "it's fine until someone actually replaces it" is definitely not the correct answer. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 12:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that we should not use photos of things that will exist in the future, including architects' sketches of buildings (which seem to be included frequently in articles of buildings under construction) and these train mock-ups. We wait for other photos to be uploaded, never knowing when an image will become available, and these we know will become available. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about that. I agree that once something becomes replaceable with a free image, the non-free image becomes immediately invalid, but until that can be done, a non-free is appropriate, though I would expect that in describing the "replaceable" aspect in its rationale to estimate how long that image cannot be replaced for (completion of building). That is, the "replaceable" aspect of non-free applies to the past and the present (what we know to be true if replacement is possible), but we cannot crystal-ball into the future. Example, a building that is being built gains appropriate sourcing to be an article, but mid-point in its construction, something happens to cancel it (collapse, lack of funds, etc.) The planned building doesn't lose any notability, but it will be impossible to get a free image of the final product. --MASEM 16:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- But in that case, wouldn't we just be able to undelete the image if the project is canceled? Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would think stuff like buildings would need an illustration of some sort of final concept anyway, since most articles on them will go quite into detail about what they are going to be like externally -- thus allowing the fair use until they are done. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 18:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- But why can't we wait until the building is done, like we do for every other subject? It may be years before we get a picture of Tulsi Giri, for instance--and for that matter we are likely never to get a picture--but we don't allow a nonfree image there. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- With living people at the present, it is always possible to get a free image, even if the likelihood of getting one is not readily apparent. You can't do that for a building that isn't completed. As long as editors are aware that as soon as something that could not be taken as a free picture becomes as such and thus voiding any allowable use of non-free images, we are sticking to the policy correctly. (and in the same fashion as soon as a living person dies, a non-free image of them is then allowable if there has been difficulty finding a free one while they were alive). --MASEM 23:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- To avoid any confusion, people were taking photographs of this in the latter phases of construction over 6 months ago, and I'm reliably informed that the trains have been sighted in the wild. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 09:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- With living people at the present, it is always possible to get a free image, even if the likelihood of getting one is not readily apparent. You can't do that for a building that isn't completed. As long as editors are aware that as soon as something that could not be taken as a free picture becomes as such and thus voiding any allowable use of non-free images, we are sticking to the policy correctly. (and in the same fashion as soon as a living person dies, a non-free image of them is then allowable if there has been difficulty finding a free one while they were alive). --MASEM 23:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- But why can't we wait until the building is done, like we do for every other subject? It may be years before we get a picture of Tulsi Giri, for instance--and for that matter we are likely never to get a picture--but we don't allow a nonfree image there. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about that. I agree that once something becomes replaceable with a free image, the non-free image becomes immediately invalid, but until that can be done, a non-free is appropriate, though I would expect that in describing the "replaceable" aspect in its rationale to estimate how long that image cannot be replaced for (completion of building). That is, the "replaceable" aspect of non-free applies to the past and the present (what we know to be true if replacement is possible), but we cannot crystal-ball into the future. Example, a building that is being built gains appropriate sourcing to be an article, but mid-point in its construction, something happens to cancel it (collapse, lack of funds, etc.) The planned building doesn't lose any notability, but it will be impossible to get a free image of the final product. --MASEM 16:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that we should not use photos of things that will exist in the future, including architects' sketches of buildings (which seem to be included frequently in articles of buildings under construction) and these train mock-ups. We wait for other photos to be uploaded, never knowing when an image will become available, and these we know will become available. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, but your response was one of the reasons I asked here instead. I had hoped for an answer from someone that actually understands Misplaced Pages policy. This may be a grey area, but "it's fine until someone actually replaces it" is definitely not the correct answer. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 12:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, I'd prefer that "replaceable" be read as "replaceable through the effort of modern persons". So, my preference is that depictions of future events be allowed (provided it meets the other criteria) until such time as it is no longer "future". I think it is silly to disallow non-free images when there is no possibility to create an alternative in the present-day. Obviously an artist sketch should be removed once it is possible to create an alternative, but not before that in my opinion. Dragons flight (talk) 09:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I refer you to the comment immediately above. See also here - first page contains 4 photos of the subject in question. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 09:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks to those Flickr images, I would say that we are no longer talking about the future. It is time to delete the designer's sketches of that train (though it is still fine to have an external link to the source.) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I refer you to the comment immediately above. See also here - first page contains 4 photos of the subject in question. 217.33.218.200 (talk) 09:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Non-free examples of paintings in lead sections on biography articles
I was wondering if I could get a few more opinions on the discussion here. J Milburn (talk) 21:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Is this a free-use license?
Please see http://www.saudi-us-relations.org/about/terms.html. Does this mean that photos found on that site are free use? -- Avi (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, it just means that you don't need to pay them to view the website. --Carnildo (talk) 05:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Great, thanks for the clarification. -- Avi (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Opinons requested - New CSD i9 propsoal
As this includes proposed removal of specific NFC wording I am letting editors know about the New CSD i9 proposal and request for comments. If you wish to read the discussions that led up to this proposal you can find them at Important I9 add needed, Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion/2008 December 4#Image:Australian embassy bombing flag.jpg and admin noticeboard. Thank you. Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
How long can copyrighted quotations be?
The policy states that "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used... Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited." What is the exact difference between "brief" and "extensive"? I've removed quotes longer than 100 words citing this policy only to be reverted. This article, for example, includes a 127 word copyrighted quote. Is that considered "brief" or "extensive"? Kaldari (talk) 18:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Given the lack of supporting text I would say that that usage is too much. Canis Lupus 20:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
For more tips, see:
Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright problems#"Repeating quotes verbatim is not plagiarism."
and the one that follows it (Guidance for writing "in your own words"?)
--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- "Brief" versus "Extensive" is very context-sensitive. The courts have ruled that quoting a single sentence of a 500-page novel was not fair use (a newspaper review of the book giving away the twist ending), and have also ruled that quoting the entire lyrics of a song was fair use (an extensive line-by-line analysis of the song). --Carnildo (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- For the "novel", I believe you're referring to Harper & Row v. Nation Enterprises, which was more than a sentence (300 to 400 words), but still a tiny tiny portion of the 500-page memoir. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- OK, then what's your specific opinion on the usage in this instance: Why Men Rule#Part IV: The Meaning of Male and Female. Personally, I think it's excessive. Canis Lupus thinks it's excessive as well. What are other people's opinions? Kaldari (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd drop the quote entirely. --Carnildo (talk) 00:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- OK, then what's your specific opinion on the usage in this instance: Why Men Rule#Part IV: The Meaning of Male and Female. Personally, I think it's excessive. Canis Lupus thinks it's excessive as well. What are other people's opinions? Kaldari (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- For the "novel", I believe you're referring to Harper & Row v. Nation Enterprises, which was more than a sentence (300 to 400 words), but still a tiny tiny portion of the 500-page memoir. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Require marking of fair use INSIDE articles?
Well, my interpretation of this particular line in the licensing policy suggests that we are still not in full compliance (but then again...we're not in compliance 100% at any point)...
As you know, the line I am about to bring up was used to rename all the non-free media templates to be prefixed with "Non-free" (which in my mind, actually makes sense from the ground up, even while not factoring this in, because the difference between "Non-free software screenshot" and "Free software screenshot" just "goes together".
Non-free content used under an EDP must be identified in a machine-readable format so that it can be easily identified by users of the site as well as re-users.
Personally, since it does not fully say "where" it has to be marked, I am assuming that there has to be machine-readable markings ANYWHERE dealing with a non-free image. The recommendation of the Comics Wikiproject "suggests" that a comment such as <!-- FAIR USE of IMAGENAME.jpg: see image description page at http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:IMAGENAME.jpg for rationale --> be placed next to every image (but then, it ALSO "requires" that a copyright notice of the publisher itself be used on the page too, which if anything...may be something to look into requiring everywhere, but still).
Anyway, per interpretations of the policy, should non-free images be marked INSIDE articles too? ViperSnake151 21:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- HTML comments and other notices within the articles should be avoided. as for template naming all non-free license templates should currently start with non-free. Canis Lupus 21:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Clarification request
A Bot has marked the images of the article Starshine (comics) as being non-fair use and orphaned- despite being from comic book covers (which as I understand makes them usable on Misplaced Pages since their purpose is promotion.) Also they are clearly not orphaned if they are being used on an article. I believe this to be a Bot error. Please someone explain this to me, otherwise I'll proceed to remove them from the orphaned list. Thank you. -Wilfredo Martinez (talk) 15:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Neither Image:Starshine I.png nor Image:Starshine II.png has ever been marked as orphaned, and I don't see any other images having been used in the article recently. Which images are you referring to? --Carnildo (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Precisely those images. The notice is at the bottom of my personal User talk:Wilfredo Martinez page. Again, note this was done by a Bot, which is why I think it's an error (and had to come here to ask. I hate bots.) -Wilfredo Martinez (talk) 03:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- The bot's telling you about Image:Starshine I.gif and Image:Starshine II.gif (note that they're .gif files, not .png), which are indeed no longer used. --Carnildo (talk) 08:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- So the Images were changed from .gif to .png? And now the old ones are no longer used? That's OK, then... but why tell *me* about it? Couldn't the person who did the change have removed the originals? Again: this is why I hate bots. I'm seriously thinking of just ignoring them from now on. Give me a REAL person to talk with. -Wilfredo Martinez (talk) 01:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Severe overuse problem
I've become increasingly aware of a growing fair use overuse problem and would like some input on how to proceed.
The problem is college sports logos are being distributed across a huge number of articles. For an example, I cite one of the most egregious cases: Image:Ohio State buckeyes logo.png. This fair use image is used in 102 articles. 102. There's only rationales for 6 articles, but that's not the real problem here. The problem is the immensity of use, and the rationales for such use.
The typical purpose of use in these cases is "Identification and critical commentary in the NNN article, a subject of public interest. The logo confirms to readers they have reached the correct article, and illustrates the intended branding message."
Now, WP:NFC says regarding acceptable use of team logos, that they can be used for identification. So, an argument could be made this is acceptable use. Yet, there is contradicting evidence. Looking at some major league sports, we don't see the proliferation of team logos on things like 2004 World Series, 2007–08 Los Angeles Lakers season, 2006–07 Boston Celtics season, 2005–06 Detroit Red Wings season and many other similar articles. In fact, I haven't found one where the logos are being used on such articles like Image:Ohio State buckeyes logo.png and many other college sports logos are being used.
I did a test case of addressing this. On 12 November 2008, I removed the sports team logos from 2005 Texas vs. Ohio State football game (). Yesterday, they were restored.
There's nothing codified, but the general practice on major league teams seems to be this: "Sport team logos are used only on the article specifically about that team, and on an article regarding that team's logos, if such an article exists. The use of the logos on every page regarding that team, such as season or game articles, is not supported" Am I wrong? If not wrong, I'd like to see this added to the guideline to help clarify the use of team logos.
Comments? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- To "brand" a page as belonging to a team to make it easier to the reader to know they hit the right page is definitely out of line. We don't use company logos on specific product pages (beyond any branding already on product's logo or picture), we don't reprint the title card of a television show on every episode page it may have. The only time a logo may go "free" on a page with a "for identification" rationale is on the company the logo represents, any other time it must be for criticism and commentary about that logo ("Company X said Company's Y logo was too similar to theirs and started a lawsuit..." would be acceptable to use the Y logo on page X for example). Unless the sports logo is already part of another non-free image for that page, the addition of a separate logo image needs to be removed. --MASEM 15:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, but the guideline doesn't indicate that. It says purposes of identification are sufficient. The common practice is as you say, but the guideline doesn't reflect that. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- WP:NFCC#3a covers that. β 15:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Not really. There's nothing there regarding not using images unless really necessary. #8 might apply, but #8 is frequently controversial and subjective. I'd prefer seeing something in the guideline regarding the general case of team and corporate logos not being used liberally everywhere the entity is mentioned. Right now, the only thing to point to is the guideline and it says that identification alone is sufficient, and that's exactly what the team logos are doing all over the college sports pages. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- WP:NFCC#3a covers that. β 15:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- That is blatant overuse. I personally think that we should just say, "Logos can only be used on the page of their subject, or if they are critically discussed in an article that is not directly about its subject" (which would clear articles on their subjects, and the few cases where a logo is famous enough for its own page, and maybe on season articles where we can say "the team also debuted this new logo for the 2009 season".). I do not think that these images are critically discussed inside the article, so unfortunately they must go. I have done this swiftly for every page they are still used on (well, within the scope of college sports) by removing the Image parameter from the offending template. ViperSnake151 15:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am seeing this as an overall issue, and it extends from logos to basic images. As it relates to logos I have been seeing some editors replace Template:Non-free logo with Template:PD-font claiming that fonts can not be copyrighted therefor any "logo" that uses fonts is PD. The greater issue is how to address any image that could be considered "fair use". The problem is that all images could be considered for that use. And that is, as I am seeing it, the core issue. Misplaced Pages has one set of editors that say anything and everything is fine, there are no limits. There is another section that says only images of news items are for use, other images, such as logos or images or artwork, are not. Other will narrow it down more and say logos the use text don't fall under fair use, they fall under Template:PD-font. I am not sure how to fully address the largest issue because we have policies and guidelines that already explain the issue fairly well. When it comes down to actually removing something that is a violation, that is where the real issues come up. I tend to feel, as does, User:ViperSnake151|ViperSnake151]], that explicit is better in this case. I do not think being vague is better, nor being worried about a user feeling we are not adhering to the "assume good faith" concept or the criteria are having too much "instruction creep". For articles we have WP:GNG and we break that down into subject specific guidlines, and some of those are pretty specific. I see nothing wrong with being that specific for images of certain types. Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- To be better stated, I would add two lines, one affirming the use of the current logo(*) of a company, product, or organization as allowable on the associated topic's page, and then a second negative use disallowing the logo on other pages for purposes of identification and/or without criticism and commentary. (*) This doesn't allow or disallow historical logos which I would still say is unresolved from the discussion last month. --MASEM 16:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This is not enough discussion to warrant wanton changes across the spectrum. While I see where people are coming from, fearing that universities will start suing Misplaced Pages for including their logo in a game article (I know, I know, doesn't pass the "laugh test"), I respectfully disagree that they are being overused when an article is about the team involved and the proper Fair Use rationale is provided. --Bobak (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- The argument "they'd never sue" is seen very, very often around these parts. It doesn't work. The fair use policies here are a superset of the law. These aren't wanton changes. See my original post in this section and note the articles on major league sports do not use logos in the way you want to use them. There's strong, strong precedent for deprecating this use.
- To others: I removed the logos from Jeweled Shillelagh, Bobak saw it and restored them. Sigh. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- And now, after I removed the inappropriate rationale from Image:LSUTigers.png, Mastrchf91 has reinstated it. Weeeeee! --Hammersoft (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- And the undoing of my efforts continues apace . --Hammersoft (talk) 22:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC) --Hammersoft (talk) 23:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- And on and on --Hammersoft (talk) 23:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Everyone realizes this is being done in good faith and you all mean to do the right thing. However, you really shouldn't be surprised that you've brought our attention. This subject has been discussed heavily before, and the result was the current system. Older pages had logos for every team a school played in the season, now that was overuse. You're not going to find people receptive to this current system. Moving forward without discussing it with WP:CFB or other pertinent projects? That's not the right way to go about it. --Bobak (talk) 22:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, I think this argument is trying to create a problem where there is no problem. These logos are used in articles about the organization that uses said logo. Period. None of the arguments presented here justifies changing the current situation, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Actually you do have to consider this isn't just a legal issue, but one of the few things that the Foundation says "this is the way it has to be". While I for one agree that it's probably fair use under US law, it does to me seem to skirt WP's policy right on the line and in light of what the rule is (note I say rule here, and not consensus), Hammersoft is probably right. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Our fair use policies are not written with the intent of finding ways to use fair use content as much as possible. Rather, it's the opposite. Using fair use imagery, even if already on the project, on dozens of articles does not support our m:mission of creating a free content encyclopedia. The more we make use of fair use, the less close to our mission we become. It becomes increasingly harder and harder for downstream users to make use of our work, and yes that is a consideration in what we do. It's one of the chief reasons we exist. If the use of logos to merely identify something were sufficient fair use claim, then we could scatter logos all over the project. But, this is not a transformative use, and if you want to get into fair use law, you do have to address that. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd respectfully disagree that this use of collegiate logos interferes with the Foundation's mission. Until a university objects about the use of its logo in an article, there's no reason to remove it. We're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet, and there's no simple alternative for the use of these logos. Nothing is as identifiable with the subjects of the articles, and a free use alternative simply doesn't exist. Until the consequences of using these logos outweigh the benefits to readers -- understandability, cohesiveness, etc. -- I can't agree that they need to be removed. JKBrooks85 (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Our mission isn't to remove content when contacted by universities. The problem already exists; fair use content being used in an excessive manner, contrary to our policies and mission. The simple alternative is naming the respective teams. That also makes them replaceable. The consequences of using them are severe; a free content encyclopedia that is considerably less free. That's our mission here; not trying to not annoy universities. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree first that there is a problem, and second that a university would be "annoyed" by such a use. Furthermore, a textual representation is far less effective than a pictoral one. It doesn't make as striking an impression, and to not use an image of the one single item that the vast majority of individuals associate with the subject is absurd. JKBrooks85 (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes they very likely wouldn't mind. Lots of people wouldn't mind WP linking to their YouTube videos of themselves playing PD music (perfectly legal on all counts) but we don't do that either. That's not the point (and shouldn't be brought up). The point is that -- annoying as it is to lose the aesthetic value the logos have (and I'm one who's BIG on aesthetics) -- WP rules simply do not allow them there. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- An established policy that 1) makes wikipedia better, 2) does not violate any copyright laws, and 3) is supported by a whole lot of users (judging by the near-instant reverts of a premature "cleanup" process already begun by Hammersoft) is a perfect candidate for Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules, imo, especially since I'm not even sure any rules are being violated. Zeng8r (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, no rules are being violated. Except that small little thing of our m:mission. No mind, who cares if we're a free content encyclopedia? Who cares that WP:NFCC and WP:NFC devolve from the mission statement? Who cares that the Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy strictly limits fair use image use? It's not a concern. Afterall, it improves the articles and I'm sure the universities won't complain. Perhaps we should start Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Fair Use Distribution. What say you? --Hammersoft (talk) 03:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Respectfully, if you wish to repeal WP:NFC, then please do a request for comment, but in any case, consensus appears to be overwhelmingly in favor of those who disagree with you. — BQZip01 — 06:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is about enforcing our policies, not repealing them. I'm not sure where I gave you the impression that I was advocating getting rid of our fair use policy. That would cause all manner of fair use to used all over the project. My position is the polar opposite of what you suggest. Also, be aware, fair use policy is not a consensus issue. Please note the very first line of Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy where it says "This policy may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored on local Wikimedia projects." I.e., even if consensus was unanimous to overrule that policy, it would still stand and would have to be followed. In particular from that policy, "Such EDPs must be minimal". Using any logo dozens of times across many articles is a clear breach of that policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Respectfully, if you wish to repeal WP:NFC, then please do a request for comment, but in any case, consensus appears to be overwhelmingly in favor of those who disagree with you. — BQZip01 — 06:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, no rules are being violated. Except that small little thing of our m:mission. No mind, who cares if we're a free content encyclopedia? Who cares that WP:NFCC and WP:NFC devolve from the mission statement? Who cares that the Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy strictly limits fair use image use? It's not a concern. Afterall, it improves the articles and I'm sure the universities won't complain. Perhaps we should start Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Fair Use Distribution. What say you? --Hammersoft (talk) 03:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- An established policy that 1) makes wikipedia better, 2) does not violate any copyright laws, and 3) is supported by a whole lot of users (judging by the near-instant reverts of a premature "cleanup" process already begun by Hammersoft) is a perfect candidate for Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules, imo, especially since I'm not even sure any rules are being violated. Zeng8r (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes they very likely wouldn't mind. Lots of people wouldn't mind WP linking to their YouTube videos of themselves playing PD music (perfectly legal on all counts) but we don't do that either. That's not the point (and shouldn't be brought up). The point is that -- annoying as it is to lose the aesthetic value the logos have (and I'm one who's BIG on aesthetics) -- WP rules simply do not allow them there. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree first that there is a problem, and second that a university would be "annoyed" by such a use. Furthermore, a textual representation is far less effective than a pictoral one. It doesn't make as striking an impression, and to not use an image of the one single item that the vast majority of individuals associate with the subject is absurd. JKBrooks85 (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Our mission isn't to remove content when contacted by universities. The problem already exists; fair use content being used in an excessive manner, contrary to our policies and mission. The simple alternative is naming the respective teams. That also makes them replaceable. The consequences of using them are severe; a free content encyclopedia that is considerably less free. That's our mission here; not trying to not annoy universities. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
"I disagree first that there is a problem, and second that a university would be "annoyed" by such a use." This hits the nail on the head. Universities do everything possible to get their brand and their image out there for recruiting purposes. There is no logical reason why they'd be annoyed by the use of an official university logo on an article about the university. Zeng8r (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I totally agree with User:Zeng8r that this is really not an issue. While I don't doubt User:Hammersoft is bringing this up with good intentions, I simply don't see what the problem is with using a fair use image in a few articles specifically relating to the team. I don't see that as overuse in any way. I think if College Football pages are being targeted specifically here, this should be discussed on the College Football project page where all of our editors can give their opinions on this. I really don't care either way (would support keeping the system the way we have it now) but if we are going to make a standard or policy on this, it definitely needs to go through the College Football project first. Rtr10 (talk) 01:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Totally agree with both Rtr10 and Zeng8r. There is no issue at all on this, and even if there were, then it should go through the proper channels. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 03:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Let's make something clear here. Proper channels is not and never has been a given project. The proper channel for discussing this is right here, on this page. Another potential channel is the Village Pump policy page. But, projects are not the arbiters or what should or should not be allowed within their area of coverage. Stamping an article as falling within a particular project doesn't protect that article from editing by any interested party. Similarly, it does not prevent it from be subservient to our policies. This is the proper place to discuss that.
- Compare; Let's say someone decides to put Milk Can (college football) up for deletion. The article is watched by Wikiprojects Idaho, Sports, and College Football. Should we then have three discussing regarding that article's deletions among the project members in those projects? No. We bring the article to WP:AFD. Similarly, we don't make policy decisions or conduct enforcement with the approval of a particular project. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Totally agree with both Rtr10 and Zeng8r. There is no issue at all on this, and even if there were, then it should go through the proper channels. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 03:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The issue is the same as it always is with non-free content; debating whether the university would mind or not is completely missing the point. When you use non-free content in an article you limit the re-usability of the content. Thus, using non-free content is always and indisputably bad; it's just that occasionally it's even worse not to use it. CIreland (talk) 02:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Section break the First
One of the key factors of fair use is "minimal use". You are supposed to use as little as you can, as little as possible. This is why we nuked the Trinity Broadcasting Network logos from all the articles of their "translators", because it was used too much, and it didn't increase the understanding as technically the stations all take a network feed and do not have their own logo. ViperSnake151 01:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, I can't see why Hammersoft should be appalled at our "undoing of efforts". It's much better to garner a wide consensus than to go on an incredible removing spree. Either way, the current system works now, and it's a bit ridiculous to start removing these images due to a very imprecise policy that could be interpreted many ways. I am a firm believer in policy, but common sense of IAR should apply here. Mastrchf (/c) 03:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's a bit ridiculous to include fair use images as far and wide as possible every time a particular team is mentioned. The common sense around here is that we are a free content encyclopedia. Those of you advocating for liberal usage of fair use images need to understand this basic, fundamental point. We do not use fair use images within the bounds of law. The law is really quite irrelevant. Whether someone would sue is irrelevant. If you believe those are the most important issues at hand, some education is in order.
- Let me give you an example. If the only concerns were whether something was legal use and whether copyright holders would complain, then we'd have album covers on every discrography of every group. It is legal, and the vast, vast majority of music groups would be most happy to have increased coverage of their works here, on a top ten website of the world. Yet, the reality is we do not have ANY album covers on discographies. Why is that?
- Here's another example: Why do we not have per character images of every character on every list of characters on the project?
- Here's another example: Why do we not permit the use of fair use images of people when we can reasonably expect to find free licenses images? It's legal to use the fair use images, and in most cases the people being depicted would probably enjoy the additional coverage. So why don't we permit it?
- Here's another example: Why do we not permit the use of fair use images in userspace, or on templates, or on portals? In a significant majority of those cases, the usage is legal and certainly holders wouldn't complain. So why isn't that permitted?
- Understand; the DEFAULT case on this project is NOT to include fair use material. A very strong argument must be made in each use of each image as to why that image is critical to user's understanding of a particular subject. That's just square one. There's plenty of additional constraints that, even if apparently legitimate uses can be found, prevent their use. Fair use content has to jump over massive barriers here to be included. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with Hammersoft. These are (in totality - a few uses will be ok) a clear breach of policy. Johnbod (talk) 03:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree with Hammersoft; these images are largely being used with complete disregard for the (non-negotiable, non-consensus) issue of minimizing non-free content. CIreland (talk) 03:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'll have to disagree with Hammersoft, and others pushing for this. Yes, in the case offered by Hammersmith where there are 102 uses of the Ohio State logo but only 6 Fair Use Rationales on the image's page, then 96 articles need to have the image removed because there is no FUR in place explaining why the image/logo is being used. But just today Hammersmith came and removed the logos of LSU and Ole Miss from Magnolia Bowl, an article that is extensively about both universities. Those are acceptable use, both images have a FUR in place for use in the Magnolia Bowl article, and both should not have been removed - especially in the midst of an ongoing conversation here about the very subject. - ✰ALLST☆R✰ 04:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Magnolia Bowl is not about either college, only the bowl game. Their logos are completely inappropriate for the page - this is further unnessitated by the actual game logo (which is appropriate) that repeats parts of both college's logos. --MASEM 04:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- You can't have a bowl game without the colleges.. they are indeed appropriate to the article as a means of identifying the bowl game participants. - ✰ALLST☆R✰ 05:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The colleges aren't playing, it is their representative teams. And logos for the purposes of identifying anything outside of the article about that topic is inappropriate. --MASEM 05:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- We are not using the logos of the colleges we are using the logos of the representative teams/athletic departments which ARE participating in these games. Just something you might want to think about. They are very appropriate in the article. Rtr10 (talk) 07:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, true, at least, the LSU one is the team logo, however, the logo serves no purpose beyond identification of the team on a page that is not about the team directly, and is duplicated by the official logo that should be on that page. There is no valid reason for those logos to be used here. --MASEM 07:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Please enlighten me, if these pages are not about the teams what are they about? They are specifically about the teams and nothing else. If two teams are not relevant to a rivalry, I don't know what else is. Your logic is totally flawed. The page directly involves the teams and there is easily a valid reason for those logos to be there. I don't know how I could make that more clear to you, but it is right there. You are simply refusing to acknowledge it. Rtr10 (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The article is about a rivalry between two college football teams that has earned a specific nickname. It is not about the teams themselves. As with the general use of logos, the individual teams' logos on this page cannot be used just for identification, but must be accompanied by commentary and criticism with respect for the logo's images to be included, otherwise it is simply decorative, since those logos, for a reader who has no idea about college sports but needs to research this particular team, will not be helpful in anyway, at least given that one can clickthru either team to get the full logo or can look at the game's logo to see parts of the teams' logo. Again, logos are historicly only used on the single page of the company or organization the logo represents. -MASEM 12:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you don't think rivalry articles are about specific college football teams, than you have no clue about college football and really shouldn't be chiming in on the matter. About 95% of these articles do not have "nicknames" they are simply "Team A-Team B Rivalry" so the team logos are definitely warranted. You may want to look a little more into this, rahter than just looking at one article. Lord forbid you collect an informed opinion. Rtr10 (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you can't keep your comments civil, then please do not post them. There's an answer to your query, but I certainly do not see, and I hope Masem equally does not see, a reason to respond when confronted with behavior like this. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you don't think rivalry articles are about specific college football teams, than you have no clue about college football and really shouldn't be chiming in on the matter. About 95% of these articles do not have "nicknames" they are simply "Team A-Team B Rivalry" so the team logos are definitely warranted. You may want to look a little more into this, rahter than just looking at one article. Lord forbid you collect an informed opinion. Rtr10 (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The article is about a rivalry between two college football teams that has earned a specific nickname. It is not about the teams themselves. As with the general use of logos, the individual teams' logos on this page cannot be used just for identification, but must be accompanied by commentary and criticism with respect for the logo's images to be included, otherwise it is simply decorative, since those logos, for a reader who has no idea about college sports but needs to research this particular team, will not be helpful in anyway, at least given that one can clickthru either team to get the full logo or can look at the game's logo to see parts of the teams' logo. Again, logos are historicly only used on the single page of the company or organization the logo represents. -MASEM 12:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Please enlighten me, if these pages are not about the teams what are they about? They are specifically about the teams and nothing else. If two teams are not relevant to a rivalry, I don't know what else is. Your logic is totally flawed. The page directly involves the teams and there is easily a valid reason for those logos to be there. I don't know how I could make that more clear to you, but it is right there. You are simply refusing to acknowledge it. Rtr10 (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, true, at least, the LSU one is the team logo, however, the logo serves no purpose beyond identification of the team on a page that is not about the team directly, and is duplicated by the official logo that should be on that page. There is no valid reason for those logos to be used here. --MASEM 07:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- We are not using the logos of the colleges we are using the logos of the representative teams/athletic departments which ARE participating in these games. Just something you might want to think about. They are very appropriate in the article. Rtr10 (talk) 07:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The colleges aren't playing, it is their representative teams. And logos for the purposes of identifying anything outside of the article about that topic is inappropriate. --MASEM 05:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- You can't have a bowl game without the colleges.. they are indeed appropriate to the article as a means of identifying the bowl game participants. - ✰ALLST☆R✰ 05:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Alas, this is something that I find so incredibly mind-blowing - People get too caught up in the bureaucratic ways of the project to actually aid the project. As to your posed questions, (the "Why is that?" sort), I'm afraid that I'm not the one who can answer that. Undoubtedly consensus discussions, a bit of chance here and there. Ok, so non-free images aren't tops on our list of wanted things. Some things are going to undoubtedly be non-free. But, you know what? I don't think anyone, save non-free image crusaders, are going to complain about an extra image or two on a page. People come here to get information on something. They don't come here to look if the article has an incredibly ill-defined "limit" of non-free images. I can promise you that, even if only one person looks at that article and says, "Look, that image is there, that helps me gain a better understanding of this article" (of course that's not what would be said, but you get what I'm meaning), that will be one more person than persons coming on here, save for those who are trying to remove these on here, that say the opposite.
- I have no doubt that this will be shot down in any number of ways, and in retrospect will probably mean little to nothing in this discussion. But is deleting possibly helpful images really aiding the construction of an encyclopedia? Mastrchf (/c) 04:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- There are probably a large fraction of pages on WP that would be better served with more non-free images to help improve the demonstration of content. However, first and foremost, WP's goal is a "free content" encyclopedia, and every piece of non-free media deters from that goal. People aren't coming here to "look" at articles, they are here to research, per the mission. Images are secondary to that goal save when it is impossible to discuss that content without visual or media aid. --MASEM 05:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- And yet again, this is what I'm talking about. Bureaucracy attempts to trump common sense. Trust me, without people who "look" at articles, I bet our daily page view count would be hovering at a nice even eight. How many of us legitimately came to Misplaced Pages to "research", not "learn"? We have a fundamental disagreement over the purpose and natures of Misplaced Pages, it's quite apparent, and I respect your view and realize that it's probably just about as true as mine. True, the goal of Misplaced Pages is being a "free content" encyclopedia, but completely removing a majority of these images dramatically hurts Misplaced Pages's goal of simply being an encyclopedia. We need to find a happy medium, and rashly removing dozens if not hundreds of images from pages (I haven't checked to see how many Hammersoft removed) is possibly the worst way to go about this. Well meaning, no doubt, but a horrible way of going about it. Mastrchf (/c) 05:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- The happy medium is permitting fair use in very limited circumstances, for example a sport logo on the page regarding that team, rather than it's rivalries, seasons, etc. If you think that's draconian, try spending time at the German language Misplaced Pages. They do not permit fair use there at all. The happy medium isn't permitting fair use wherever and however people want to use it. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- If WP was worried about its page count, then yes, the end user experience would be placed at a higher level. But we're not here for page counts, we're here to build a free content encyclopedia that will grow and last the ages, and we have also been tasked by the Foundation to keep non-free use to a minimum. Remember, there are some versions of wikipedia (de.wiki notably) that disallow any non-free content, yet they continue to build and expand. --MASEM 05:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- So, just making sure, we're here to make an encyclopedia that's going to be here theoretically forever, but, we don't care if anyone reads it or gets anything from it. Right? That's not what you meant to say, true, but that's pretty much what it sounds like. And the "page view count" wasn't meant to be taken literally, by the way. I'm assuming you realized that.... Mastrchf (/c) 05:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- We want people to read it, but we're not in any competition or for any profit; things that would normally be done on commercial or competitive websites to draw in viewers, such as more visually appealing pages, that otherwise interfere with the mission goals should not be done. --MASEM 06:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed with Masem and Hammersoft. We've for some time allowed logos en masse in articles about the subject the logo represents. I don't think that's a great idea, but it's current practice. On the other hand, use of those logos outside those articles is unnecessary and excessive. When we can name a team rather than using its logo (i.e., in all cases), the logo is replaceable. We can just as easily say "Somewhere Foos vs. Elsewhere Bars" rather than putting logos, and that's perfectly clear. Seraphimblade 07:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's obviously a matter of degree. 100 uses of a logo are too much. But the other extreme, for example the removal of images from Template:NCAATeamSeason is equally wrong (so, for example, 2008 Pittsburgh Panthers football team could not display a logo). In those cases, that logo is the logo of the subject and is thus perfectly appropriate. A rivalry page? Sure, include the logos. But more perplexing to me is this notion that fair use images and a viable 💕 are mutually exclusive. Why is that so? If images allow us to convey information more strongly, that makes Misplaced Pages a better source of information, which is why it's here after all. That in turn brings more readers, some percentage of whom will become editors, which leads to the creation of more content. I think the notion that non-free images (which I believe we all agree enhance the reader's experience) detract from Misplaced Pages's mission is misguided. Oren0 (talk) 08:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- That is an excellent point, Oren0. 100 instances is definitely excessive, but if it is only a few instances and there are Fur's in place for all of the uses, there should not be a problem with their use. Taking the absolute worst example (the Ohio State logo with over 100 uses) and trying to extrapolate policy from that is ridiculous to the extreme. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 10:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It isn't the point at all. The number of uses isn't the issue. The type of use is. Taken from that perspective (which it should be), the use of a fair use image just once beyond the bounds of where it should be used is just as much a problem as 100 uses. I'm not interested in the number. I used the Ohio State logo because that is what brought this problem to my attention. I fully expected and still expect to find other sports logos used rampantly like the Ohio State logo was. It's just one case of many. I highlighted a serious overuse problem. It isn't ridiculous to do so. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Every non-free media inclusion on WP harms the free content mission, though for en.wiki we recognize that some non-free media is needed for some subjects to make articles more comprehensive. That's why we need to strive for as minimal use as possible. As soon as you relax the requirements for certain classes of images, you will find people will use that to have the same for other classes, and maintaining minimal use will be impossible. We have to limit extraneous uses where the images may look nice and make pages more visually appealing because these cases serve no improvement for helping readers to comprehend the text. --MASEM 12:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- That is an excellent point, Oren0. 100 instances is definitely excessive, but if it is only a few instances and there are Fur's in place for all of the uses, there should not be a problem with their use. Taking the absolute worst example (the Ohio State logo with over 100 uses) and trying to extrapolate policy from that is ridiculous to the extreme. Cardsplayer4life (talk) 10:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's obviously a matter of degree. 100 uses of a logo are too much. But the other extreme, for example the removal of images from Template:NCAATeamSeason is equally wrong (so, for example, 2008 Pittsburgh Panthers football team could not display a logo). In those cases, that logo is the logo of the subject and is thus perfectly appropriate. A rivalry page? Sure, include the logos. But more perplexing to me is this notion that fair use images and a viable 💕 are mutually exclusive. Why is that so? If images allow us to convey information more strongly, that makes Misplaced Pages a better source of information, which is why it's here after all. That in turn brings more readers, some percentage of whom will become editors, which leads to the creation of more content. I think the notion that non-free images (which I believe we all agree enhance the reader's experience) detract from Misplaced Pages's mission is misguided. Oren0 (talk) 08:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed with Masem and Hammersoft. We've for some time allowed logos en masse in articles about the subject the logo represents. I don't think that's a great idea, but it's current practice. On the other hand, use of those logos outside those articles is unnecessary and excessive. When we can name a team rather than using its logo (i.e., in all cases), the logo is replaceable. We can just as easily say "Somewhere Foos vs. Elsewhere Bars" rather than putting logos, and that's perfectly clear. Seraphimblade 07:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- We want people to read it, but we're not in any competition or for any profit; things that would normally be done on commercial or competitive websites to draw in viewers, such as more visually appealing pages, that otherwise interfere with the mission goals should not be done. --MASEM 06:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- So, just making sure, we're here to make an encyclopedia that's going to be here theoretically forever, but, we don't care if anyone reads it or gets anything from it. Right? That's not what you meant to say, true, but that's pretty much what it sounds like. And the "page view count" wasn't meant to be taken literally, by the way. I'm assuming you realized that.... Mastrchf (/c) 05:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- And yet again, this is what I'm talking about. Bureaucracy attempts to trump common sense. Trust me, without people who "look" at articles, I bet our daily page view count would be hovering at a nice even eight. How many of us legitimately came to Misplaced Pages to "research", not "learn"? We have a fundamental disagreement over the purpose and natures of Misplaced Pages, it's quite apparent, and I respect your view and realize that it's probably just about as true as mine. True, the goal of Misplaced Pages is being a "free content" encyclopedia, but completely removing a majority of these images dramatically hurts Misplaced Pages's goal of simply being an encyclopedia. We need to find a happy medium, and rashly removing dozens if not hundreds of images from pages (I haven't checked to see how many Hammersoft removed) is possibly the worst way to go about this. Well meaning, no doubt, but a horrible way of going about it. Mastrchf (/c) 05:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- There are probably a large fraction of pages on WP that would be better served with more non-free images to help improve the demonstration of content. However, first and foremost, WP's goal is a "free content" encyclopedia, and every piece of non-free media deters from that goal. People aren't coming here to "look" at articles, they are here to research, per the mission. Images are secondary to that goal save when it is impossible to discuss that content without visual or media aid. --MASEM 05:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- (outdent) Let me just repeat something Masem said above me -- we have also been tasked by the Foundation to keep non-free use to a minimum. That's all the matters in the grand scheme. I absolutely agree that WP 'should' be able to have all these images. As I said, I'm a very aesthetic person, and I think the lack of images (or the horrid quality of some) is a bad thing. But this is a case of the fact that even if you don't agree with the rules, you still must agree to the rules. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm curious where this "task" comes from. Are you referring to Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy? It states: "Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works." Logos are specifically called out as when non-free content is appropriate. My reading of that document is that it says that non-free content is allowable for those three cases, plus limited other cases. I don't see anywhere in that document (though there may be something in another meta page), nor do I see anything in WP:NFCC, that limits the use of logos provided a rationale and that the logos identify their subjects. This is why I don't buy Masem's "If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk" argument. We're not the ones who say that logos are OK, meta is. Oren0 (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's the "limited exception" part that is important. Without it, the Resolution suggests that anytime a logo would make sense to include because the subject has been identified on an article, we should include it (such as the cases in point here). Limited exception means that we (through consensus) need to determine the exceptional cases when logos should be used to maintain minimal use. Now, it is true that there is nothing explicit that says "logos on the organization article's page only", but that's been an unwritten approach that has been used, and seems to be consistent with all other non-free use. --MASEM 18:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I believe we are at a grammatical impasse. The way that sentence reads to me is: "Non-free content can be used for these three things (including logos) or used in other ways as a limited exception". The "limited exception" doesn't apply to logos or the other two appropriate uses as written IMO. I don't believe that I'm wikilawyering here, as it seems that the intent is to allow NFC for these three cases (with no indication that that type of use should be limited) and in a limited manner for other cases (such as when a non-free replacement is unavailable and the pic is low-res, per en-wiki policies). Oren0 (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) That's an odd reading of the phrase. A more natural one would be that, apart from limited exceptions, an EDP should limit the use to illustrating historically significant events, including identifying protected works such as logos, or complementing (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works. Jheald (talk) 18:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- For example, a Google search for "with limited exception" brings up hits like
- "With limited exception, at least 10 facilities completed the survey in all regions" -- ie apart from a very few exceptions, in every region at least ten survey forms were returned
- "A provider of consumer loans (each limited to up to $25000) must, with limited exception, be licensed under Alaska law as a small loan company to make such loans" - ie except in certain exceptional circumstances, a loan company has to be licensed. Jheald (talk) 20:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- For example, a Google search for "with limited exception" brings up hits like
- On the other hand, it doesn't give carte blanche to use logos absolutely anywhere. While the logo may be identifying of the team, I find it hard to see as identifying of the competition. EDPs are supposed to tightly control usage even in allowed categories. WP:NFC is our EDP, and has to be respected. Jheald (talk) 18:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, I can see the "limited exception" could be read a couple different ways, but even the basis of "to include identifying protected works such as logos" seems to me to state that we include logos when it is necessary to identify them - that is, on the pages of the company, organization, or product it represents, and in rare cases on pages about the logo itself. No one has yet demonstrated the need to identify the logo of a college team on a page that is otherwise not the main article of that college team save for "it helps readers to identify the team", which is not a necessity (a good question to ask is would the article be impacted by de.wiki-type no non-free use requirements? Clearly here, the answer is no, there is no impact).
- Again, while it is possibly being concerned about something that will never happen, I've seen enough arguments on this page that evoke WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to try to justify excess use of non-free images. NFC needs to be as normalized as much as possible to prevent carving exceptions that others will see as special treatment and demand more for their articles of preferred interest. --MASEM 20:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's the "limited exception" part that is important. Without it, the Resolution suggests that anytime a logo would make sense to include because the subject has been identified on an article, we should include it (such as the cases in point here). Limited exception means that we (through consensus) need to determine the exceptional cases when logos should be used to maintain minimal use. Now, it is true that there is nothing explicit that says "logos on the organization article's page only", but that's been an unwritten approach that has been used, and seems to be consistent with all other non-free use. --MASEM 18:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm curious where this "task" comes from. Are you referring to Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy? It states: "Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works." Logos are specifically called out as when non-free content is appropriate. My reading of that document is that it says that non-free content is allowable for those three cases, plus limited other cases. I don't see anywhere in that document (though there may be something in another meta page), nor do I see anything in WP:NFCC, that limits the use of logos provided a rationale and that the logos identify their subjects. This is why I don't buy Masem's "If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk" argument. We're not the ones who say that logos are OK, meta is. Oren0 (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)