| Revision as of 10:24, 12 January 2009 view sourceRabend (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users543 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 11:13, 12 January 2009 view source Rabend (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users543 edits →My thoughtsNext edit → | ||
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| On a personal note, and please don’t be offended by anything, I think it also does a disservice to the Palestinian people. The term suggests that the Palestinian people are mere victims, and thus further consolidates what I view as the eternal victim stance. The Palestinians always try to show how they are always victims in everything, and I think that’s not a good for them, strategically. In my opinion, they should take a more proactive, independent stand. Not always the crushed people, even though they might feel that, and Israel may indeed make them feel that. You see what I’m saying? Call it a “war”, or something. Anything that implies that you’re not again the hopeless victims, coz if they keep it up, no one in the world would ever expect them to make something of themselves, and that would be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not to compare in any way, shape or form, but take a look at what’s going on Israel, solely from this perspective. Forget about history and context and who’s right. Jews came to israel after being victims themselves in the Holocaust. But they chose not to wallow in the victimization feeling, but actually to be active, and build and create their country, despite incessant wars. I wish the Palestinians would do the same. While talking with the UN to see who’s right and wrong in this never ending conflict, decide that you stop being hopeless victims, and build a working country for yourselves. If they keep sticking to the victimization thing, they have a reason to not do much for themselves and instead blame everyone around them. The vast majority in israel thinks just that. Most Israelis have no special connection to the Gaza strip, and really don’t mind Palestinians around them. They just want them to create a viable, peaceful country alongside israel, so that the two people could live in peace. Right, wrong, guilty, victim. Whatever. We are all victims here to some extent. Let’s try to move past that. | On a personal note, and please don’t be offended by anything, I think it also does a disservice to the Palestinian people. The term suggests that the Palestinian people are mere victims, and thus further consolidates what I view as the eternal victim stance. The Palestinians always try to show how they are always victims in everything, and I think that’s not a good for them, strategically. In my opinion, they should take a more proactive, independent stand. Not always the crushed people, even though they might feel that, and Israel may indeed make them feel that. You see what I’m saying? Call it a “war”, or something. Anything that implies that you’re not again the hopeless victims, coz if they keep it up, no one in the world would ever expect them to make something of themselves, and that would be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not to compare in any way, shape or form, but take a look at what’s going on Israel, solely from this perspective. Forget about history and context and who’s right. Jews came to israel after being victims themselves in the Holocaust. But they chose not to wallow in the victimization feeling, but actually to be active, and build and create their country, despite incessant wars. I wish the Palestinians would do the same. While talking with the UN to see who’s right and wrong in this never ending conflict, decide that you stop being hopeless victims, and build a working country for yourselves. If they keep sticking to the victimization thing, they have a reason to not do much for themselves and instead blame everyone around them. The vast majority in israel thinks just that. Most Israelis have no special connection to the Gaza strip, and really don’t mind Palestinians around them. They just want them to create a viable, peaceful country alongside israel, so that the two people could live in peace. Right, wrong, guilty, victim. Whatever. We are all victims here to some extent. Let’s try to move past that. | ||
| I’m sure you |
I’m sure you might disagree with most of this, and you might think endorses a patronizing view (which I hope you won't), but I just wanted you to hear my opinion and the thoughts of the average Israel supporter. ] (]) 10:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 11:13, 12 January 2009
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bilady bilady bilady, laki hubbi wa fuadi
Hi Nableezy. I'm from Egypt too. Glad to see you :). --Darwish07 (talk) 02:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Tamam zaii el foll. Koll sana wi inta tayyeb :D. --Darwish07 (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Peace indeed
Hey, thanks for the message. I appreciate it. Our dialogue (as unproductive as it was...) actually made me understand a little better what "the other side" thinks about the issue, so some good did come out of it. There's really no right or wrong here, just two sides to a story. And, indeed, the same should be reflected here in WP. I really hope both Palestinians and Israelis will all move past this period of aggression and into more productive times, so I could drive down to Gaza and have some good humus with the people. So take care, and indeed let's hope for some more peace. Rabend (talk) 07:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Infobox inclusions
I have forwarded a compromise solution at the talk page of the Gaza conflict about the inclusion of UN workers and women and children. See it and reply please.BobaFett85 (talk) 15:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Fading away
Nableezy, my time limit is too small these days cause of the exams. If this silly debate about the "Gaza Massacre" term continued, just take a look at my 3-point ("Reply to claim 1", "Reply to claim 2", ..) answer to the 3 proposed "problems". I believe those 3 points are sharp enough to cut off all the proposed arguments, including bolding. Thank you. --Darwish07 (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
So far, my 3-point reply has not been challenged, cause I think they are powerful enough. See you soon. --Darwish07 (talk) 17:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Gaza Massacre
The reason I'm not taking active part in this discussion (as well as in many others) is that I am having a hard time to crystalize an opinion. I must say that I am appalled by the "massacre" terminology, as I find it to be nothing short of simple case of racism, yet, I can't see how we can ignore the fact that most of the Arab world does call it that way. That said, I guess I would have no objection to include the term in the lead, but don't quote me on that just yet. Also , most Israeli media outlets call it "the Gaza War". If "massacare" goes in so should "war" (maybe, I don't know). Bottom line: I am still contemplating, but I tend to agree it should stay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omrim (talk • contribs) 19:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Just to make it clear: I didn't take part in this discussion (I think). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omrim (talk • contribs) 19:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me post a message by myself--Omrim (talk) 19:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
We disagree with a few of your points but you have not let any discussion devolve into an unproductive debate. Thanks. I keep on forgetting to sign my posts.67.170.88.215 (talk) 00:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC) Edit: And logging in.Cptnono (talk) 00:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Grossly gross
No problem man. I appreciate it. I'm sure that poor soldier who misfired is utterly devastated and would have liked to apologize for that horrible accident. Maybe when the war is over. Rabend (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Thank you
I appreciate the compliment, and sending a similar one your way. It is exhaustedly difficult to maintain reason and calm in such tense times (while trying to have real life outside wiki at the same time) and I deeply appreciate anyone trying to do so, such as yourself. Peace indeed (even though I am quite skeptic about seeing peace in my lifetime...)--Omrim (talk) 02:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
Your recent edits
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My thoughts
Hey. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I also value your thoughtful contributions, and I think we’re helping this article finally reach a point of sustained neutrality.
I’ve been trying to put into actual words what’s bothering me with the massacre statement. I think it’s basically the effect that it has on the naïve reader, who is the target audience of this encyclopedia. I think that when the user encounters “the Gaza Massacre” in boldface in the opening lines of the article that is supposed to objectively sum up the conflict, cognitively, he will barely notice the suffix, and that the strong words will be imprinted in his mind and will be subconsciously associated with the conflict, thereby potentially creating an undue bias, before even reading the facts. This term is so emotionally charged, that the danger of such a potential bias overrides the necessity of putting it right up at the top. I agree it should be present in the article, but further down. The Hebrew term, by contrast, is “operation” (the people actually refer to it as “war”), which is a less strong expression, in my opinion (so is “war”).
This issue is particularly disturbing to (left wing) pro-Israelis, since we know for a fact that the IDF is doing all that it reasonably can to avoid civilian casualties. That’s why it’s using so much advanced intelligence equipment and smart weapons and doing door-to-door urban fighting, which is uber-risky. If the IDF really wanted a massacre, it would do it in a single 5-minute sortie with 0 casualties on its side and 100,000s of dead Palestinians. It feels like the use of “massacre” is not only false, but used as propaganda by Arabic media to bash Israel. When the western reader encounters this word, it is in the context of the western reporting standards that he is used to, and is more likely to accept that as fact. Again, the suffix is not so noticeable after those strong words. That is my opinion.
On a personal note, and please don’t be offended by anything, I think it also does a disservice to the Palestinian people. The term suggests that the Palestinian people are mere victims, and thus further consolidates what I view as the eternal victim stance. The Palestinians always try to show how they are always victims in everything, and I think that’s not a good for them, strategically. In my opinion, they should take a more proactive, independent stand. Not always the crushed people, even though they might feel that, and Israel may indeed make them feel that. You see what I’m saying? Call it a “war”, or something. Anything that implies that you’re not again the hopeless victims, coz if they keep it up, no one in the world would ever expect them to make something of themselves, and that would be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not to compare in any way, shape or form, but take a look at what’s going on Israel, solely from this perspective. Forget about history and context and who’s right. Jews came to israel after being victims themselves in the Holocaust. But they chose not to wallow in the victimization feeling, but actually to be active, and build and create their country, despite incessant wars. I wish the Palestinians would do the same. While talking with the UN to see who’s right and wrong in this never ending conflict, decide that you stop being hopeless victims, and build a working country for yourselves. If they keep sticking to the victimization thing, they have a reason to not do much for themselves and instead blame everyone around them. The vast majority in israel thinks just that. Most Israelis have no special connection to the Gaza strip, and really don’t mind Palestinians around them. They just want them to create a viable, peaceful country alongside israel, so that the two people could live in peace. Right, wrong, guilty, victim. Whatever. We are all victims here to some extent. Let’s try to move past that.
I’m sure you might disagree with most of this, and you might think endorses a patronizing view (which I hope you won't), but I just wanted you to hear my opinion and the thoughts of the average Israel supporter. Rabend (talk) 10:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)