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Template:Mergenote

I have created a template, {{mergenote}}, which is similar to {{AFDWarning}} and {{AFDNote}} but is used to notify the major contributors of an article on their talk page that there is a merge discussion taking place. Two parameters can be defined: the article name and the location of the merge discussion:

• {{subst:mergenote | ARTICLE NAME }}
• {{subst:mergenote | ARTICLE NAME | TALK PAGE WHERE MERGE IS BEING DISCUSSED }}

The major contributors of an article can be found using this tool by aka. Outside input on the {{mergenote}} template would be appreciated. I hope to include a mention of {{mergenote}} in this article. --Pixelface (talk) 19:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Need explanation from proposer

I see a lot of situations where the proposer puts up the appropriate merge tags at the top of the articles, but then does not initiate any discussion on the appropriate Talk page to explain why the merge is needed. Shouldn't some sort of explanation from the proposer be part of the merge process? Johnfos (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I really would be grateful for some discussion on this, please. It just seems to be common sense that the person advocating the merge should explain why it is needed, rather than leave other editors guessing. Johnfos (talk) 07:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It is always good form to explain why any tag is added. I've deleted any number of tags for merges, splits, disputed and POV after long discussion, simply because no one can figure out why they were added. However, this is noted on the help page— look for "After proposing the merger, place your reasons on the talk page." There is more on discussion scattered throughout the page. If there is reason to think that this should be more prominent, perhaps rounding up the subject of discussion into a separate section would be appropriate. --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 12:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Need help locating records of a merged page

Suppose that page X was merged into page Y months ago. Where can I find a record of the data on page X before it was merged?

(This is most important when the material on page X is severely truncated (shortened) during the merge and the reader wants to recover the lost information.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Comrade Sephiroth (talk • contribs) 02:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Page X should now be a redirect page. If you don't know the exact name, use "What links here". When you click on page X, you will be redirected to page Y. There will be a backlink at the top showing you were redirects—click that and page X will open. You can then check the page history. --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 11:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no process like with AfD where the outcome is clearly recorded with all the details available. If there has been a merge suggestion for an article in the past, your only hope is to search the talk page and archives. If you want to know if a page has been merged with another, you can only really do the same and look in the page history for 'merge', and look at what links here, though redirects from merges aren't highlighted or anything. The redirected page might be in Category:Redirects from merges, but it might well not be, in which case you'd have to check its page history to be sure. Perhaps we should make more of an effort to record the 'merge history' of articles, especially for major merges (or serious merge discussions). Do we even have a template one could use in such a situation, e.g. 'This page is the result of a merge between X and Y', 'Y was merged into this article on DD/MM/YY' or 'It has been suggested that X be merged with this page, but the consensus was not to merge (link to discussion)'? Richard001 (talk) 05:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion regarding defaults

I would suggest that the {{mergeto}} tag by default (if no talk page is specified) direct to the talk page of the same article, rather than that of the article it is suggested to merge into. It seems much more likely that the relevant discussion, if any, will be on the same talk page in that case. PSWG1920 (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it. The article that it is being merged into will probably be the more 'senior' one, with more people likely to visit the talk page. You would also have to change {{mergefrom}} so that it was set to the other page's talk page, which would be similarly strange. Richard001 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the mergefrom page generally becomes a redirect, the mergefrom talkpage essentially becomes orphaned. If the mergeto talk page has the merge discussion, then editors can figure out the merge more readily. --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 21:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Making the placement of merge templates easier

We need some automated process or bot to help setting up merge templates. This is especially so with multi-merges. A page where you could just fill in the page names and similar details hit enter, letting a bot or such do the rest, would be nice. A bot that makes sure merge proposals are symmetrical would also be good, i.e. one that adds a merge template to one page if the other has one on it. Richard001 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How?

How do i request a merge?. Mythdon (talk) 05:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussions

What are the policies/guidelines/etc. that cover merge discussions, which occur on the Talk page of one of the affected articles? In particular, I am interested in the proper procedure for closing a merge discussion. I've read Help:Merging and moving pages#Closing/archive a proposed merger (vague), as well as Misplaced Pages:Consensus, Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines, and Template:Discussion top, but I have not found anything directly helpful.

For XfDs, the closing editor must be uninvolved and may be a non-admin when admin tools are not required to implement the decision. Some merges may require history merges, while others can be done with cut-and-paste. Should an uninvolved editor be requested at WP:EAR, WP:AN, or elsewhere, or should the merge tags and their associated categories be relied on to attract this uninvolved editor?

Is it ever acceptable for an involved editor to close a merge discussion as no consensus following an extended period (1-2 months) with no new discussion, or does this involved closing always constitute a conflict of interest, as it would in the WP:Deletion process? If it may be acceptable, what constitutes a reasonable "extended period"? Flatscan (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Mergers are generally done by someone who has an interest in the topic. Deletion requires distance, but mergers require knowledge of the subject in some manner to have an idea of what needs to be kept. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I guess I'll cross-post my question once this is archived. Flatscan (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)?

I believe the question is not who actually carries out the merger but who determines whether or not there is a consensus when there is no unanimity? I believe that it's been the practice in the past to request on WP:AN that an uninvolved admin determine consensus when it is unclear. Reggie Perrin (talk) 04:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Cross-posted from Misplaced Pages:Help desk/Archives/2008 May 24 to Help talk:Merging and moving pages, Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)

I was unable to find guidance or precedent. Is there support for adding a recommendation to request closing by an uninvolved editor at WP:EAR or WP:AN? Alternately, this may be recommended only if the closure is disputed. Flatscan (talk) 01:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Closure of a lengthy move discussion at Talk:New York was done by an uninvolved admin following a request at WP:AN. Flatscan (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I came across a discussion that implies scrutiny of closures by involved editors. I'll add the suggested recommendation if there are no objections. Flatscan (talk) 03:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I added the suggestion. Flatscan (talk) 23:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

What do to with the talk page of the redirected page?

There's no instructions on what to do with the old talk page. Should it be deleted, or just left? ImpIn | (t - c) 00:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I assume that you're referring to an article that has been merged into another. If the Talk page has any useful discussion, I would place archive tags and move it to a subpage of the merged article's Talk. Flatscan (talk) 00:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I came across Template:Merged-from, which is placed on the merged article's Talk and provides links to the redirected article and its Talk, making a move unnecessary. Flatscan (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge policy

1. Is AfD appropriate for discussing mergers, controversial or otherwise?
2. Is there need for a formal Mergers for discussion? Would it be sufficiently subscribed?

Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Mergers at AfD

Filing an AfD for a contested merge was suggested in this archived AN/I thread and its preceding merge discussion. There has been opposition to taking this content dispute to AfD, which is not a listed dispute resolution step. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations‎ was eventually filed.—add AfD Flatscan (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I was recently involved with a disputed split/merge that was eventually nominated at AfD. Although I thought such a nomination was discouraged, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Taser controversy attracted sufficient outside input and resolved the dispute. Steps preceding the nomination:

1. Article tagging and informal merge discussion per Help:Merging and moving pages, but not the optional listing at Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers
2. Intermittent discussion over a few months
3. RfC per DR, attracting zero outside input
4. Suggestion of refiling RfC or seeking mediation per DR

In my opinion, AfD worked well for this example because the merge was argued on Misplaced Pages policy, not specific and specialized knowledge. My guess is that lack of specific interest and/or reluctance to enter an existing content dispute hurt the RfC's success.

A way of looking at AfD is that it asks this question: "Does Misplaced Pages need an article on this subject?" Delete and Merge/redirect both answer "no". Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: I'm not sure if taking merges to AfD should be encouraged, but I think it's a reasonable forum for at least some cases. Flatscan (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Related discussion: Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 51#Articles for deletion and merging —Flatscan (talk) 03:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Another somewhat related discussion (towards end of linked section) —Flatscan (talk) 22:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Mergers for discussion

Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers already exists, but it is an optional step. My experience is that there is little collected guidelines regarding merge discussions, which may lead to protracted disputes over whether the relevant procedural precedent was followed. Flatscan (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Copied from Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Archive 50#Merge policy —Flatscan (talk) 01:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No guidance for direction of merges

I would think merges should prefer that the page content is merged into the page with the more detailed history, especially when there is a great disparity. Is there any existing guidance on this? There is none on the project page here. As an example, I just tagged a newly created page with just a three edit history for merger to an established page with a detailed history going back two years. This seems the obvious direction and I think most editors under similar circumstances would do likewise, choosing the new (little history) into the old (detailed history). Here's the rub: the newly created article appears to be at the better name. Assuming it is, if I want to do the merge in the history-favored direction, but then move that old article to the new article name, I won't be able to delete the new article to perform that move as that would destroy the history of the merged-from page, and the merge would then no longer comply with the GFDL. I suppose I could do a name swap...; never pretty but it would preserve both pages' histories. Anyway, any thoughts on whether merges should consider richness of page histories as a criterion for direction, or whether that or at least something about the merge direction should be added to the attached project page?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason against a history merge, such as the short and long edit histories being interleaved? A history merge would obscure what really happened, but the individual revisions would survive – I don't know if that would cause a GFDL problem. I could see history richness as a merge direction consideration, but at a low priority. Flatscan (talk) 00:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Afaik, history merges are for content that used to be on the same page that for whatever reason needs to be added back; cut and paste moves and the like. It doesn't seem logical to me to merge the histories of two pages that started independently because think about what a user scrolling through the history will find: two years in, suddenly an edit summary: "create article"; and if they look at the version they'll see a whole other article; the next edit after that is a stub tagging, and a few edits later, its back to the original article's content. It would be confusing and incongruous. Moreover, if the edits are spread over time, various versions of the two articles will be interleaved. Inspecting this merged history without means of distinguishing between the two overlapping progressions (since nothing in the history would indicate which version belongs to which sequence) invites much more severe confusion. Turning to the second part of your post, why is it a low priority criterion? Or more pertinently, what would be a higher basis to use? Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. The attached page has no guidance on direction at all and I would think that issue a fundamental concern for merges so let's change the inquiry:

What criteria should be considered for choosing the direction of merges?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I would use minimize amount of work necessary. This would include, in approximate order of priority:

• Merge into preferred name to avoid name swap.
• Merge into article with larger scope (e.g. merging a subarticle into a section).
• Merge in the direction that requires copying less text. This has the desirable side effect of having less text associated with the separate history of the redirected article.

If the articles are roughly equal, then history richness could be considered. Flatscan (talk) 02:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of your points may have merit independently, but I reject the entire premise that minimizing work is even a consideration, which you use as the underlying basis for all your criteria. We do what is best and correct for the encyclopedia and if it takes more time to do it right, then that's the procedure we adopt.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. Endorsing laziness was not my intent. Flatscan (talk) 20:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Moving forward on mergers with no votes either way?

I proposed that Kristi Yamaoka be merged with Cheerleading#Dangers of Cheerleading. I got no response aside from a comment that was more of a clarification than a vote, and it's 11 days and counting. I figured it would be controversial and posted it in the proposed section here at the time hoping to get some input, but nothing has happened from that direction either, nor does it look likely to happen. What's the next step here? MSJapan (talk) 21:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any good recommendations. Considering the five previous AfDs, renominating to AfD with suggested outcome merge/redirect is an option, but not a good one. I would normally suggest leaving a note "seeing no objections, will proceed with merge", then going ahead per WP:BOLD after another 1-2 weeks of no discussion, but here I would expect an immediate reversion citing consensus established at AfD. Flatscan (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:SILENCE! II | (t - c) 22:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I think of it this way: If it's proposed for merge, the editor who makes the proposition implicitly votes for the merge unless explicitly says otherwise. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 05:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Old merge template; for proposed mergers that result in consensus against (or no consensus)

Mirroring {{oldafdfull}}, I've created {{User:Coldacid/Templates/oldmergefull}} for when a merge has been proposed, but resulted in a decision to keep the original article, or for when there is no consensus. I don't think it'll be used too much, but for articles where that happens, it's better than making someone scroll down the talk page, head to an archived talk page, or try and figure out what article was suggested for the merge.

Perhaps someone should work out how to work the template into the help article, perhaps after a move into the Template namespace and/or some protection. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 06:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Can we make it that you can remove proposed merge tags if the proposer doesn't leave any comments on the talk page?

I get sick of people doing this. No explanation, just tag and leave - rst20xx (talk) 00:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that people have done it in the past. Still, I'd say only if the proposer doesn't respond to questions about the proposal. Sometimes the case for merging is obvious to the proposer, and he or she thinks (wrongly) it should be obvious to others. A better option would be to send a message to the person who proposed a merge, asking them to comment on the article talk page about the proposal. If they don't bother, then pull the merge tags down if nobody else is discussing it. --coldacid (talk|contrib) 03:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Protocol in mergers, how much is consensus?

OK, here's one for discussion, both on how complete consensus is and how long to leave open a merge for. On September 19th, I proposed a merger here of lycanthrope and werewolf, two articles which could easily reach 50-75 kb at FAC, and which are to all intents synonymous in all definitions I can find apart from D&D, where lycanthrope was used to mean human shapeshifters.

• So far there are 9 supports, with 4 noting that a condition would be to mention and explain D&D usage and non-wolf shapeshifting material moved to therianthropy or shapeshifting (this is absolutely fine by me).

• There are two opposes, both on the D&D issue, but neither have returned to clarify whether there are any other issues or whether they'd be satisfied with.

Question is, how long do we leave this open and how many counts as consensus? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Procedurally, it looks fine to close this discussion now:

• Proper merge tags with precise link to discussion
• 2 weeks since discussion start
• 1 week since last non-supporting comment

My reading is that the merge is not particularly controversial, but its size requires some work to do properly. If my impression is incorrect and you expect vigorous opposition to implementing the merge, you may wish to consider additional measures:

• 1 week since last comment, to allow rebuttal
• Request closure by an uninvolved admin at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard

Flatscan (talk) 03:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

For future reference, closure was requested at AN, and the merge proceeded without opposition. Flatscan (talk) 22:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge tags on templates

Is there a merge template for use on templates? Eg, someone wants to merge Template:Bits and Template:Reins, and the merge template proposes (inappropriate) merges of the pages on which the template is used. --Una Smith (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Use <includeonly>. --NE2 02:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge edit summaries

According to Help:Merging and moving pages#Performing the merger, the source article must be recorded in the edit summary:

Save the destination page, with an edit summary noting "merge content from ]" (This step is required in order to conform with §4(I) of the GFDL. Do not omit it nor omit the page name.)

If the information is omitted, it may be recorded later using a dummy edit to the article or {{merged-from}} on the destination article's Talk page.

Do the bolded sentences carry the force of policy? It appears that these instructions are frequently ignored. Misplaced Pages talk:Copyrights may be the proper place for this discussion. Flatscan (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• The first mention of edit summaries was added 23 May 2005. The bold text was added 7 June 2007 by Uncle G. Flatscan (talk) 04:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• I think it's fair to say that this is so widely-ignored that it's not going to be settled on a help page's talk. I'd certainly support making this notice more prominent, but even better would be to have a technical solution - such as a bot - which would be able to identify when a redirect had been created following a merge and to flag both the article and the redir such as to comply with our licensing obligations. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I thought of a bot after I logged off. It seems like the classification logic would be simple, even for a high degree of confidence. Flatscan (talk) 04:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • A bot is probably the best solution. Enforcing this as we would other policies will be onerous and painful in practice. Protonk (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC
• It is frequently ignored because people have little or no knowledge of the GFDL, but that is not a good reason not to enforce it. The GFDL (or the upcoming CC license) are a core policy and should be upheld no matter what. I say we should point to Misplaced Pages:Merge and delete and Help:Merging and moving pages#Performing the merger more often to make people aware. Make a signpost article if we have to. - Mgm| 20:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Did you mean to put that in the thread immediately above this one? Protonk (talk) 20:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Since editors are not authors, and it stays within the same project, the GFDL doesn't play here at all (unless the source article's history contains an older, non-project source that is still relevant to the current article content). It is nonetheless good policy to mention the revision ID, because that is very helpful to all editors and shows respect to the contributors. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 22:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Moved comments from below. Protonk (talk) 23:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Editors are authors when they add significant content. Our articles don't write themselves and the essential point is that contributions are recognised and not copied without attribution. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
      • This is a common misunderstanding. No, Misplaced Pages editors are not authors, no matter how significant their contributions (who is to judge, anyway). They are collaborators. The author rights belong to the project as a whole. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 14:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
        • You may wish to review WP:C, which notes (in part) "The Wikimedia Foundation does not own copyright on Misplaced Pages article texts and illustrations....For permission to use it outside these terms, one must contact all the volunteer authors of the text or illustration in question." The reason one must contact them is because they own the copyright and have only licensed it under GFDL. --Moonriddengirl 14:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
          • The policy is correct. What you are missing is that it is about authors, not Misplaced Pages editors (but note that they may be the same person). Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 15:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
            • I'm not sure how this is consistent with "Misplaced Pages editors are not authors, no matter how significant their contributions (who is to judge, anyway). They are collaborators. The author rights belong to the project as a whole." The policy says that the project does not own the copyright; the authors do. As Colonel Warden indicates above you, "Editors are authors when they add significant content." How is that a misunderstanding, if the policy is correct? --Moonriddengirl 16:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
              • Because that's not in the policy. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 16:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
                • Then who are these mysterious "volunteer authors" who own the copyright to this text, if not "editors ...add significant content"? --Moonriddengirl 16:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
                  • Exactly what it says, they are the authors, nothing mysterious about it. If you write a poem, you (usually) have the author rights to that poem, and if you volunteer it for placement in Misplaced Pages, you keep those rights and should receive attribution. The editor that puts your poem in an article, however, gains no such rights, nor does the editor that corrects a spelling error made by that first editor, nor the editor that adds a reference to the original publication of that poem, nor the editor that writes down all notable comments on your poem, nor the editor that makes a list of poems on the same topic, etc. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 17:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
                    • Perhaps the misunderstanding here is in the phrase "significant content"? Spelling corrections are not significant content. Significant content is creative text such that copyright laws apply. Take the article Ship Ahoy (album). I am completely the author of that article to this point, at which time no other contributors had added to it. As per the notice at the bottom of the page, I irrevocably agreed to license my contributions under the terms of GFDL. This is not the same, however, as relinquishing copyright. I did not place the text into public domain. As a volunteer author, I still have the right to attribution of my work, no matter who uses it or how. This is spelled out at WP:C in the following sentence, "Misplaced Pages content can be copied, modified, and redistributed so long as the new version grants the same freedoms to others and acknowledges the authors of the Misplaced Pages article used (a direct link back to the article is generally thought to satisfy the attribution requirement)." Misplaced Pages makes no claims to copyright ownership of my material and explicitly disclaims it: "The Wikimedia Foundation does not own copyright on Misplaced Pages article texts and illustrations." If somebody wants to use that text in any other way than under the GFDL licensing, they have to ask my permission: "For permission to use it outside these terms, one must contact all the volunteer authors of the text or illustration in question." If they don't, and they don't respond to a standard takedown request, it's up to me to handle it, as "You can only file a lawsuit (or file a DMCA take down notice) if you hold a significant copyright interest in one or more articles" as Misplaced Pages:Standard GFDL violation letter notes. Misplaced Pages contributors who add substantial content to Misplaced Pages own the content they place here. Neither Misplaced Pages nor anyone else can use it without following the terms of GFDL, which requires attribution as specified in Misplaced Pages:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License. (See also: Misplaced Pages:About#Trademarks and copyrights: "Contributions remain the property of their creators, while the GFDL license ensures the content is freely distributable and reproducible." Note how this mirrors the language of the edit window release: "You irrevocably agree to release your contributions under the terms of the GFDL.") --Moonriddengirl 18:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) You are once again basing all that you say on a text about authors. It does't apply to editors. It has nothing to do with the notion of significance either. Since I am apparently unable to make you see the light, I suggest that you ask someone you trust to know about this stuff. Regards, Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 18:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• Is there some reason that you prefer to keep reiterating your basic premise without explaining it? Do you assert that you do have the right to copy material I authored in that article elsewhere without giving me credit? If so, how can you account for that under the specific text I've quoted from policies? You say " The author rights belong to the project as a whole", but this is demonstrably contradicted by policy at a number of points. --Moonriddengirl 18:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
  • No, I don't have the right to copy material that you authored without giving you credits. I'm talking about material that you supplied as an editor, and the absence of a need to credit editors. If you put your friend's poem in an article, I'm not going to credit you for that, I'm going to credit your friend. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 18:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Then granted that you do not have the right to copy material that I have authored, no other Wikipedian does either. Hence, no Wikipedian may copy my contributions to that article into any other space—on Misplaced Pages or off—without noting my authorship in accordance with GFDL. Since I have only licensed my text in accordance with GFDL, utilizing it in any other way is a violation of my copyright and against US law. --Moonriddengirl 18:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
      • What you forget is that you won't have authored most of what you enter. It does not become 'your text' by entering it into Misplaced Pages. If it wasn't already your or someone else's text before you entered it, it becomes Misplaced Pages's text. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 18:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
        • On the contrary, I authored every word (except those marked as quotations). It was mine the moment it moved from my brain to fixed medium, according to United States copyright law: "Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work.". Misplaced Pages is based in Florida and is bound by that law; as written, our policy clearly reflects that. I have quoted policy where Misplaced Pages makes explicit that it is not Misplaced Pages's text. I'll repeat what was said to you at village pump: perhaps you should contact the Foundation or our legal council to have this further explained to you. --Moonriddengirl 19:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
          • My dear, I check things before I say something, not afterwards. Now, that pdf file is not the law, it is merely a not entirely accurate summary of the basics of the law. Nonetheless, if you would read only a bit further, you would find that there are different rules for works made for hire. Even though you don't get paid, Misplaced Pages counts as such a work. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 20:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
            • Though evidently you don't find publications of the US government as accurate as your own understanding of US law, I'll still link to this in noting that as we are not employees of Misplaced Pages, you would have to be referring to "a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work...if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire." (Emphasis added). (17 U.S.C. sec 101) (Employees are identified by such factors as whether the "employer" controls the work ("determine how the work is done, has the work done at the employer’s location, and provides equipment or other means to create work"), controls the employee ("e.g., the employer controls the employee’s schedule in creating work, has the right to have the employee perform other assignments, determines the method of payment, and/ or has the right to hire the employee’s assistants") and whether or not the employer meets status/conduct test ("e.g., the employer is in business to produce such works, provides the employee with benefits, and/or withholds tax from the employee’s payment"). The US Government notes, "All or most of these factors characterize a regular, salaried employment relationship, and it is clear that a work created within the scope of such employment is a work made for hire." I have yet to receive my paycheck. I hope I'm not the only person here being stiffed.) There is no written instrument between me and Misplaced Pages expressly agreeing that this is a work for hire. On the contrary, there is a written agreement that I am licensing my work for reuse under certain specific conditions. And Misplaced Pages specifically disclaims ownership of this material, in spite of your opinions otherwise. I'm about to hit "save page" and irrevocably agree to said license for this text, too. --Moonriddengirl 21:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
              • I don't blindly assume any text to be accurate, government or otherwise. Surely, as a Misplaced Pages editor, you can understand this. Now, the key is that the Supreme Court doesn't say that all three criteria must be satisfied. (Also, benefits can take other forms than salary, but that is less relevant.) The first two are satisfied, and that is sufficient here. There is no significant difference beteen paid work and volunteer work in this respect. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 22:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Uh, is there any point to this hair-splitting between "author" & "editor"? Beyond this issue of the right -- or at least the common courtesy -- of giving credit to the person(s) who wrote the text? Because I don't see one. -- llywrch (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry for bogging down in minutia. I was trying to understand why this specific contributor does not seem to comprehend what looks to be explicit policy. :) You're quite right to remind that the issue here is credit. Two bits on that: GFDL violations are copyright infringement. That's why our contributors are advised how to send a DMCA takedown to external sites that utilize their text without authorization. Authorship credit is necessary to satisfy the terms of GFDL, which is (as we know) the license we agree to release our work under when we type in the edit window. If we copy another Wikipedian's words without credit, we're violating their legal rights. --Moonriddengirl 19:05, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, MRG, my question was directed more to Guido den Broeder than you; he seems to be the one hung up on labelling Wikipedians as "editors" & not "authors". If he is worried that anyone who does as little as fix a typo or change a single word is entitled to credit for an article — which is the only reason I can conceive for his repeated assertion — I doubt that anyone seriously believes that. But if he believes that someone who contributes significant text to an article — or even writes the entire article by her/himself — is no more than an editor, & which I assume you have in mind, then I emphatically disagree with him. Whether or not I expect an external user to identify me as the creator of the content in question. (Personally, I'm satisfied if that person only acknowledges Misplaced Pages as the source of that content.) -- llywrch (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
• Yes, even if you are the only editor of an article, that still doesn't give you the author rights. It does not matter that you disagree with me, we as Wikipedians can't change the law, nor can we ignore it. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 21:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Reading this, I'm still confused. I think we all agree that if I copy something from somewhere else to Misplaced Pages we aren't authors. But if I, for example, write a poem and post it here, I am the author. The same goes for anything else we write (not copy, but write). Even if the work involves citing sources and quoting from them, it is still authorship, just as a news article has an author even if it largely consists of quoting others. Hobit (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Perhaps this conversation is part of "Misplaced Pages, the social experiment". --Moonriddengirl 22:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Hobit, based on GdB's response you have nothing to be confused about. He apparently believes that if he asserts an opinion enough times in a given period of time, then it must be true. So far he has failed to explain why he is right, & we are best served by ignoring his unhelpful opinion. -- llywrch (talk) 22:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Feel free to believe otherwise, as the issue will probably never come up for you (but it has for me). Let's say we agree to disagree, or otherwise, ask someone that you trust more. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 23:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
        • I agree with both Moonriddengirl and Guido (I think). When a Wikipedian editor creates significant content – such as writing an encyclopedia article with a new collection of facts and/or interesting turns of phrases, etc. – then that Wikipedian editor is the author of that material in toto (though not the author of any bits that may happen to be quotes), and holds the copyright for it. But if a Wikipedian makes a small change to an article such as correcting a spelling mistake or adding a category, there is no copyright for that. However, I'm not sure that "the whole project" can own a copyright; I don't think it's a legal entity. Also, it may be unclear where the line is drawn; and there's no harm in giving people credit for their work, as a courtesy, even if it's not legally required to do so. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 01:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
          • Wikimedia Foundation is a legal entity, as are its various chapters. (Cf meta:Local chapter FAQ.) But the whole project not only does not (as noted above), but cannot own copyright of this content—not of material that's already been contributed to it, anyway. Misplaced Pages's contributors are required to license their content under GFDL, not to surrender copyright, and Misplaced Pages would not be able to retroactively claim copyright on material it has only been licensed to modify & distribute. In terms of legal requirements, WP:C notes that "The English text of the GFDL is the only legally binding document between authors and users of Misplaced Pages content." Material on Misplaced Pages can be reused according to the terms of GFDL, which (as we know) allows modification. GFDL is somewhat vague on the attribution required for simple reproduction, but not at all vague on the attribution required for modification: Section 4 points out that to modify a document licensed under GFDL, we must "B. List on the Title Page, as authors, one or more persons or entities responsible for authorship of the modifications in the Modified Version, together with at least five of the principal authors of the Document (all of its principal authors, if it has fewer than five), unless they release you from this requirement". Material copied from one Misplaced Pages article to another needs attribution for modification, if nothing else. The essay Misplaced Pages:Verbatim copying discusses some of the complications of straightforward copying, without modification. --Moonriddengirl 02:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• After walking away from this thread overnight & now returning, I realize that another part of "authorship" is involved here: responsibility for content especially in the case of libel. If I add information that is harmful to a person or organization, that party will come after me, not the WMF, per my understanding of the law. If we are all merely "editors", then this responsibility vanishes, reflected off of each contributor similar to light or images in a hall of mirrors. An interesting, although off-topic, question here -- & one I have not seen raised -- is if I add malicious content to an article, & several people make changes to that article before someone else removes it, then are those people also responsible for that malicious content even if all they do is make minor changes (fix typos, misspelling or update templates)? -- llywrch (talk) 17:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• ← I, for one, find Moonriddengirl's explanations to be compelling. In any case, it looks like everyone agrees that informative edit summaries are at least a good idea. Mgm's proposal of raising awareness is a good start. I have concerns that this page's Help: namespace has and will lead to it being dismissed as "just a how-to page", but I don't know if a separate Misplaced Pages: policy or essay is the right answer. Flatscan (talk) 04:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
• Certainly, I fully agree with the need for informative edit summaries. A permalink should be included.

  @Moonriddengirl: attribution is not handled by the GFDL because this is already regulated by law; the GFDL doesn't change anything there, and in fact no license can. You are indeed not asked to give up any author rights that you have; you just don't gain any either by editing. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 13:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I've not said you gain author rights by editing. You simply retain them, as governed by US copyright law. These sentences are mine. I've licensed others to use and modify them, but I have not surrendered my right to credit. The project does not own my words. They merely have my permission to distribute them in given circumstances. That's what licensing is all about. --Moonriddengirl 20:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
    • You can't retain what you did not have in the first place. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 20:42, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah! Guido den Broeder is working under the misapprehension that the contributions made by Misplaced Pages's editors are works for hire, and that Misplaced Pages (or, properly, the Wikimedia Foundation) automatically holds the copyrights to editors' contributions.

Since that's plainly incorrect, we can all stop arguing with him. I've referred him once to Foundation counsel User:MGodwin. Unless and until Mr. Den Broeder takes that very simple and straightforward step to confirm his position (which contradicts years of Misplaced Pages policy, Foundation statements, and assorted laws), there's no more need to waste time in this thread. What a relief! I urge everyone else to get on with productive business, and Guido is welcome to whatever last word he wishes. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Naturally, now that you so clearly point out that it is so plain, I will immediately ignore all the existing law, court rulings, literature, the unanimous opinions of all kinds of experts and my own experience of over 35 years in this area, and immediately fall in line. (Right. Have a nice day, folks.) Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 23:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Just for the record, as far as I can tell, you never explained why exactly you believe what you believe on this issue. I understand you have a lot of knowledge of the area (I have a fair bit having had to teach a bit on the subject, but I'm certainly a layman in the area). Could you provide the legal explanation for your assertions? Thanks, Hobit (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages sets rules for its editors and for editing; hence, editors count as employees, not as independent contractors, and author rights default to Misplaced Pages. While it could easily have gone another way, it's what we chose to be the law and its interpretation - not just in the USA, but in most of the world.

You can, however, circumvent this, by publishing your contributions elsewhere first, where you get the author rights, before you enter them here. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 17:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Hobit, of potential interest here is Community for Creative Non-Violence v. Reid, 490 U.S. 730, which see: "Reid was an independent contractor rather than a 101(1) "employee" since, although CCNV members directed enough of the work to ensure that the statue met their specifications, all other relevant circumstances weigh heavily against finding an employment relationship. Reid engages in a skilled occupation; supplied his own tools; worked in Baltimore without daily supervision from Washington; was retained for a relatively short period of time; had absolute freedom to decide when and how long to work in order to meet his deadline; and had total discretion in hiring and paying assistants. Moreover, CCNV had no right to assign additional projects to Reid; paid him in a manner in which independent contractors are often compensated; did not engage regularly in the business of creating sculpture or, in fact, in any business; and did not pay payroll or Social Security taxes, provide any employee benefits, or contribute to unemployment insurance or workers' compensation funds. Furthermore, as petitioners concede, the work in question does not satisfy the terms of 101(2). Pp. 751-753." Misplaced Pages's contributors, of course, supply their own tools, work without supervision, have absolute freedom to decide when and how long to work, have total discretion in hiring and paying (or not) assistants; Misplaced Pages has no right to assign us additional projects, does not provide payroll or Social Security taxes, employee benefits or contribute to unemployment insurance or workers' comp. Cf the following texts: 372 et seq, 73 et seq. --Moonriddengirl 21:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I'd want to read the whole thing. It does seem he was paid, which might make a difference here. Thanks to both of you. Hobit (talk) 14:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Including revision ID

I prefer to include the explicit revision ID in the edit summary, e.g., copy Taser#Safety concerns subsections, Taser#Tests section, revision 228248230, per Talk:Taser#Moving content to Taser safety issues (diff). The resulting permanent link is robust against page moves and will work as long as the specific revision is not deleted. Is there support for adding this as a suggestion? Flatscan (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Seems fine to me. I do that if I'm not redirecting the page (or at least I did it the 1-2 times I merged content without redirecting). Protonk (talk) 20:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge edit summaries (2)

Since the previous section of the same name was badly derailed by one editor's stubborn insistence on his own particular understanding of copyright as it applies to Misplaced Pages, I'm opening a new section for discussion.

I would urge anyone who wants to insist that they do not hold copyright over their contributions to Misplaced Pages to add their comments to the previous section. This discussion will stipulate for the sake of argument that Misplaced Pages editors do own the copyrights to their writing, and that there are GFDL considerations to moving material between articles. We're trying to have a productive discussion, and I welcome any constructive remarks. I'd say that the issues we're considering probably fall into three categories.

1. Going forward. What should our best practices be for giving credit following a merger? Where (and in what form) should the merger be noted in edit summaries? Is there anywhere else that the merger (and previous authors) ought to be acknowledged? What happens if an article is deleted? What (if anything) needs be done during a rename of the source or target?
2. Looking back. What is the minimum standard we'll accept? While it's unlikely that all article mergers in the past will comply precisely with whatever standard shakes out of this discussion, what level of good-faith acknowledgement effort is acceptable?
3. Cleaning up after ourselves. Some mergers will have been done badly in the past, and some will continue to be done poorly in the future. What do we do? Are null edits with the merger info sufficient? How do we handle more complex cases?

If there's anything else, shout out. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:GFDL says that the History page has to list all the previous authors. We kind of smear the Title and History pages around between oldid's (previous titles), history and talk, but it is mostly in the edit history of the article. This means that the history should be preserved in all its excruciating glory.

• Credit should be in the edit summary and on the target talk page. The source (in-merged) article history has all the previous author details. Renames can be accomodated by also noting the oldid/id of the source article, since otherwise there could be a problem with A merged to B; A(redirect) renamed to C; D created; D renamed to A; link in B now points effectively to D.
• More problematic is when the source article gets deleted - but this really should never happen, should it? Presumably the source article will get reduced to a redirect. However, adopting as best practice naming the oldid/articleid of the source will at least ensure that admins can provide the entire Title and History page(s) if necessary.
• Looking back / cleaning up - edit summary and talk page note again should be sufficient (again, oldid/articleid would be best practice). The essence is that any merge of text provides sufficient wiki-clues to trace back the exact provenance of every word. That's not required by GFDL, but given the MediaWiki diff facilities and requirement to preserve previous titles, that's really what should be possible. If we can't get a diff to every word using reasonable effort, something has gone wrong.

Summary: going forward, I'd say best practice is to note any merge on article talk, including either oldid or article id, and note that a merge has occurred in the edit summary; null edit summaries accompanied by talk page notes are fine for cleanups - if oldid's are noted, it should handle complex cases too. Franamax (talk) 04:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

These comments are a great start.

• Keyword "merge", current article name, and oldid cover everything for me. {{merged-from}} and any similar templates need to be modified to support the additional parameters. Do any ids change on delete/undelete? I think I read that undeleted articles receive a new articleid.
• These practices should generally apply to any copying or moving content between articles, not just full merges. I think even small copies should be noted on the Talk page, but there should be a better representation than one template per discrete copy.
• The source article should never be deleted (unless the target has been deleted), but it can be moved out of article space per Misplaced Pages:Merge and delete. It might be a good idea to note in the source's history, to make the GFDL burden clearer. A dummy edit is required if the redirection edit does not mention the merge.
• Dummy edits that conform with the standards, plus date and oldid of the actual merge, should be fine for history recording. Ordinary editing takes care of Talk page recording. A bot should be able to bring most merges done by a single editor into line. We may have problems when one editor redirects and another merges.
• Relating to Franamax's mention of attributing each word, I prefer to copy/paste the source with minimal editing (only deletions of whole paragraphs), integrating in separate edits similar to Help:Merging and moving pages#Full-content paste merger.

Flatscan (talk) 06:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Moving forward with productive conversation as wisely advised, perhaps the {{Merged-to}} would also be helpful at the talk of the source article, to help reduce the risk of inadvertent deletion? If {{R from merge}} is used, that ordinarily shouldn't happen, but if somebody overwrites that with new material, it's possible that a single note of a merge in edit summary would be overlooked by a deleting administrator. With respect to partial mergers, Coppertwig has created a template recently for splitfrom: {{Splitfrom}}. To standardize, perhaps it should be renamed split-to, with another created for destination article renamed split-from? --Moonriddengirl 11:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

On the technical side, I checked articleid's on my localwiki. If I delete the article and restore it, it keeps the original articleid in the page table; if I delete, re-create with new content, then restore the original, the original history is restored to the new article (histmerge) and the page table has the new articleid. Don't know if that helps at all. A selective restore could still omit some of the history but presumably this will be rare. Franamax (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

According to mw:Archive table, delete saves oldid (ar_rev_id) as of MW 1.5 and articleid (ar_page_id) as of 1.11. The information at mw:Old table covers 1.4 and earlier. Flatscan (talk) 04:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge templates

They are clearly broken. These templates need to seriously be simplified. (I, unfortunately, am not a rocket scientist, but a Wikipedian who wishes to propose a simple merge of several articles into one.) I am tempted to AFD every single article I am willing to open to a merge in this case, since that is easier to do than go through the merge-to-multiple-with-bullshit process. MuZemike 07:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not a rocket scientist, either; in fact, I'm a bit of a duffer when it comes to technology. Which means that I'll try to help, but I may fail. :D I tried {{Mergetomultiple-with |Abraham Lincoln|Barack Obama|Dolly Parton|with=Benji|date=January 2009}} on an article, and it seemed to work in preview. All of the articles showed up, and "discuss" opened Talk:Benji. It worked for me when I added a fourth article and when I reduced it to two. It didn't work when I tried it in my userspace, since it wanted all the other articles to be in userspace, too (we have no User:Dolly Parton). {{Mergefrom-multiple|Abraham Lincoln|Dolly Parton|Barack Obama|George Patton}} worked for me in preview, too. Is the problem with one of these templates or a different one? Is it technical, or do you think the instructions are too confusing? --Moonriddengirl 12:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If AFD consensus was merge, what happens if an editor refuses to allow any new info to be merged?

The consensus was to merge the article Akane-chan Overdrive with that that of its creator. Alas, no information has been added to that page at all. An editor has stated that the only information belonging on a biography page was the name of their creation and the year it was published, stubbornly arguing against the addition of even a brief summary of the series created by that author. If people voted for a merge, then is she required to honor that, and allow some information to be merged? Dream Focus (talk) 08:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 11:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Also read WP:FORUMSHOP. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This isn't a forum shop. This is the area to talk about the Merge guideline, I reading what the article saying, and asking a question about it. Because it seems as we have a different definition of what the word merge means. Dream Focus (talk) 00:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)