Revision as of 10:19, 24 February 2009

Languages Stub‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Kosovo Unassessed

Gora dialect is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Serbia Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Bulgaria Start‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bulgaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bulgaria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BulgariaWikipedia:WikiProject BulgariaTemplate:WikiProject BulgariaBulgaria Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

RE:Bulgarian Dialects in North-west macedonia

Some Goranian intellectuals and researchers define their language as Bulgarian, similar to the Bulgarian dialects spoken in Northwest Macedonia .

Could someone please find me these "Northwest Macedonian dialects of Bulgaria"? If anything they would be more closely related to Macedonian to Bulgarian!PMK1 (talk) 07:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is:"Some Goranian intellectuals and researchers define their language as Bulgarian, similar to the Bulgarian dialects spoken in Northwest Macedonia". These are the right words, published in the dictionary of Nazif Dokle. This oppinion is in conformity with the thesis about Macedonian dialects as a part of Bulgarian diasystem.--AKeckarov (talk) 17:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

In that case, said intellectuals must be quoted. Their thesis cannot simply be presented as fact. BalkanFever 04:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I am agree with your suggestion. I am wondering only whether it is necessry "what they call". Maybe the quotation marks are suffucient.--AKeckarov (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Torlakian language is a myth

There is no such thing as a *Torlakian language, or nation, for that matter. --Vladko (talk) 12:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a Belgrade ruse, very much like the *Macedonian nation. --Vladko (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, no need for this. Some self-identify as Bulgarians and that is enough. No need to add more nationalistic claims. You might get a block this way. I agree that the language is certainly just a dialect, but there's no need to get into lame disputes. --Laveol 14:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Dialect of anything

Look, both {{Bulgarian dialects}} and {{Macedonian dialects}} are POV here, obviously. There are people among the Gorani who consider themselves Bulgarians or Macedonians, but the majority have an independent consciousness about their national identity and language. Saying that "nashinski is transitional between macedonian and serbian. Bulgarian is a foreign language comparable to montenegrin or croatian" is, pardon my language, pure male cow excrement. It just highlights that somebody is here to push an agenda. Not to mention it's just funny because I really don't think there's a difference between "Montenegrin" and Serbian or Croatian.

I don't see why we can have {{Macedonian dialects}} here and not {{Bulgarian dialects}}. We can impose a Macedonian dialect on that population, but not a Bulgarian dialect? And that contrary to what the source we have cited say? We don't have even one reference here to back up the statement that Našinski is considered a Macedonian dialect and yet we have the template. Bulgarian has a reference, and one by the community itself at that, and has been removed by Macedonian nationalists.

Do you guys ever make any sense? Todor→Bozhinov 12:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

The community? It's one guy financed to write a bilingual dictionary by the Bulgarian Academy (sic). He says it's similar to the dialects in northwestern Macedonia (i.e. Macedonian dialects) which he is payed to say are Bulgarian... If you want we'll say referring to Našinski itself as Bulgarian is like calling it Slovenian, so you can get it through your head. Happy? BalkanFever 12:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

We don't work with original research here. If you think Dokle has been bribed by anybody or if you think Bulgarian is like Slovenian to Našinski, then back this up with sources. Till then, however, we have a serious reference (actually the first Gorani dictionary) published by a significant institution to back our position, and there's a nice big right after the Macedonian claims. And yet, you don't see me removing {{Macedonian dialects}}. Just face it: your POV is not the only one, learn to tolerate other people's views because NPOV doesn't work by imposing your own position. Just like I accept that this community is regarded as Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia, you'll get to accept that it's regarded as Bulgarian in Bulgaria. Oh, and learn to spell paid. I'd excuse that if you were a native speaker of Macedonian, but it's your damn mother tongue. Todor→Bozhinov 12:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL, even a native speaker is allowed to make a mistake. I don't really care if you excuse me or not, since you're not really in a position to correct me, are you? Especially with your misguided notion of mother tongue ;) Anyway, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. In Bulgaria they regard Macedonian dialects in their entirety as Bulgarian, not just Našinski by itself. Even Dokle does this, he calls Macedonian dialects Bulgarian. But it's been explained to you that it's a fringe view already. I can easily tolerate other people's views, unless they're fringe. And you know as well as I do that the "significant" institution wouldn't have published the dictionary if Dokle had called it a Macedonian dialect or a Serbian dialect. Even if he didn't bother to attempt to classify the language at all (it is a dictionary, remember) it wouldn't have been published. Našinski is connected to Macedonian dialects, which are connected to Bulgarian dialects. You cant go from Našinski to Bulgarian dialects (unless you call the Macedonian dialects Bulgarian). Našinski is (was) connected to Serbian dialects, which are connected to Croatian dialects which are connected to Slovenian dialects. Since you think Croatian and Serbian are the same, the Slovenian comparison works as a comprehension aide for you, not something I suggest should go in the article. You can't directly connect Našinski to Slovenian. That is what we call WP:COMMON SENSE. BalkanFever 13:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Guys, back off from those ideological obsessions of yours. The world is not interested if this variety "really is" part of this or that national language. That very question is nonsensical, and our article would become nonsensical if it spent time arguing for or against either of these "POV"s. We can say that the variety is "treated within the context of Macedonian and/or Bulgarian dialectology". That's just sufficiently vague so as not to sound idiotic. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:04, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any point in debating any further, I was just here to protect the article from vandalism-like editing, and I see it has been prevented. Thanks, Todor→Bozhinov 13:17, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

PMK1, could you be bothered to discuss at least once before you do mindless reverts? You're on the losing side here, I believe we agreed yesterday that the removal of {{Bulgarian dialects}} is unjustifiable. And if someone doesn't do it before me, you're getting reverted as soon as possible by me (I messed up my counting, that doesn't mean I like your edit :)) I'm not sure I need anything more to prove that I'm right, but here's a Focus News article in broken Macedonian, to enlighten you. There are local Bulgarian organizations in Gora, some Gorani are in contact with the State Agency for Bulgarians Abroad, they celebrate our national holiday 3 March and donate costumes to our national ethnographic museum. And to prove the language point, here's an ordinary Gorani guy who says his language is "more Bulgarian than Serbian" and doesn't even mention Macedonian as a possibility; the TV show is The Other Bulgaria on bTV. He must be on a Bulgarian payroll, right? Like everyone else who exercises their right to self-determination? Todor→Bozhinov 07:27, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Fut.Perf., would it be OK to go back to the version we agreed on yesterday? I've reached my 24-hour revert limit (I think, I had lost count and accidentally reverted myself thinking I'd 3RR-ed this morning) and PMK1's last intervention removed {{Bulgarian dialects}} yet again. I'm going to wait a few hours until my limit is over, but I do intend to reintroduce the template, it makes no sense to remove it and retain {{Macedonian dialects}}. Todor→Bozhinov 12:38, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not aware I (or anybody else) "agreed" on anything in particular with respect to the templates. I only commented on the body text. As far as the templates are concerned, I can very well live with Kekrops' tie-breaking proposal, of throwing them all out. The moment a template is being used more as a marker of territory-claiming by our editors, than as a navigation aid for our readers, something has gone wrong. People have an unfortunate tendency of exhibiting the same attitude towards templates as dogs towards lamp posts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, we all know lamp posts are very cool and very comfortable for pissing over :) I'm fine with the current solution. Todor→Bozhinov 13:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Yea Todor, it must be similar to the "Bulgarian dialects of North West Macedonia". If these people were "spoke Bulgarian" as the man claims, then subtitles would not be necessary. Todor y'all are like drowning men clutching at straws. Here's a document relating to them, , you may have seen their newpapers Гороцвет , a bit over the top but here is an interesting performance: , and Ismail Bojda leader of Macedonians in Gora . Not to mention the 2 Gorani villages located in ROM, they too must be Bulgarians. Not that anyone here actually cares, but you might think twice.? PMK1 (talk) 06:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No offence, but this is retarded. Subtitles are regularly applied when people are not speaking common Bulgarian: dialects from the Rhodopes or western Bulgaria are regularly transcribed because they're pretty distant from the official language. Do I really have to explain that? Can't you realize that claiming these people as one or the other is retarded? In their majority, they're self-identifying not as Bulgarians, Macedonians or Serbs, but as Gorani, so leave them be. What we're disputing here is not what they are, but whether there actually are any substantial claims by one side or the other. And since I believe I've proven my point that there are substantial Bulgarian claims, this dispute is over and I dare say you've lost. Todor→Bozhinov 09:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

1. West Bulgarian is known as MACEDONIAN, by the rest of the world.

2. No the majority identify as ethnic macedonian muslims or "goranci". They are not ehtnic Serbs, not since the kosovo war anyway. and bulgaria is related to them only through fiction and myth.

3. No it was your people that "lost"

go for it i "dare" you. PMK1 (talk) 10:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't be paranoid, mate. Under "western Bulgaria" non-paranoid people mean the region of Sofia, Pernik, Dupnitsa, Tran, Kyustendil, etc. Not southwestern Bulgaria, which is Blagoevgrad Province, and not northwestern Bulgaria, which is Vidin, Montana, Vratsa, etc. People in Bulgaria's extreme west speak transitional dialects which are pretty incomprehensible for people from more remote regions. Do you seriously believe the Gorani majority are "ethnic Macedonian Muslims"? I've never ever heard that nonsense before, somehow the Kosovo officials have missed that "fact".

And yes, it was our people that lost. Long live the Vardar Banovina inhabited by true Serbs! Now cut the paranoid nationalist crap and get busy with something else. Whatever you're discussing at the moment has no relation to the article. I'm out of here. Todor→Bozhinov 10:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• Stub-Class language articles
• Unknown-importance language articles
• WikiProject Languages articles
• Unassessed Kosovo articles
• Unknown-importance Kosovo articles
• WikiProject Kosovo articles
• Unassessed Serbia articles
• Unknown-importance Serbia articles
• WikiProject Serbia articles
• Start-Class Bulgaria articles
• Low-importance Bulgaria articles
• WikiProject Bulgaria articles