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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Top-importance). Template:USP-Article United States: Presidential elections Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. 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view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 12, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 18, 2004 Today's featured article Main Page January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 16, 2008 Featured article review Kept November 4, 2008 Today's featured article Main Page December 2, 2008 Featured article review Kept A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008. Current status: Featured article

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Special discussion pages /Article probation, /Incidents /Historical diffs, /weight, /race

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Redundant discussions

In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.

Race

• Talk:Barack Obama/race
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race

Religion

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Religon
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Religion

Citizenship

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference

Full name

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II

Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion about Obama's birthplace, citizenship, race/ethnicity, etc. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

If you want to read about where Obama was born and have concerns about it, read Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Citizenship facts, rumors and claims and in particular this source which is heavily utilized in the article.

Creating (yet more) links on the page

A number of organizations that Obama was involved in or acted on the board of directors for don't have hyperlinks. Example, the Center for Neighborhood Technology. I think it would be beneficial to give people access to that kind of thing, and most of them have either their own webpages or wikipedia pages, so why not link to them? Unfortunately because of the (necessary) lock on the page, it's difficult to add those links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealintomorrow (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 21:35, 4 March 2009. I wonder how fast this comment will be censored. :) Misplaced Pages is really getting be be a joke! Unfortunately, this is a really great concept being more and more poorly executed! I'll guess I go back to using Google to find facts, because I just don't feel Misplaced Pages is unbiased anymore. If they can work with respond acurately and forcefully to http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 then maybe the reputation can be rescued. Otherwise, Misplaced Pages will probably become something of a joke similiar to the Washington Post, et al, along with the accompanying drop in users, readers, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.236.112.195 (talk) 15:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't he called "Barack H. Obama"?

Like Ulysses S. Grant, Rutherford B. Hayes, James A. Garfield, Chester A. Arthur, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, and so on? 203.211.75.108 (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Pure stylistic choice, as far as I can tell. George W. Bush employed the middle initial primarily to distinguish him from his father. The others did it because it mainly because it sounds good (compare "John Kennedy", "John F. Kennedy"). Dcoetzee 05:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan & Bill Clinton aren't called by their middle names. We name articles by the most common usage. Barack Obama is more common than Barack H. Obama. Burner0718 05:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Quick, without peaking, name the middle initials of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, or James Madison. I can't do it, but I'm sure some editors can. However, in any case, the simple fact is that different presidents (or those who write about them) have made slightly different choices about which parts of their names to use most commonly. Obama happens to be one with "middle name/initial usually omitted." LotLE×talk 05:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

None of those presidents had middle names.TomCat4680 (talk) 02:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Wilson did. It was Woodrow. It's of course not uncommon that people use their middle name as their first name Nil Einne (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough, but why do we call Adams "John Quincy Adams"? Are there other Adams to confuse him with? Why not just a middle initial? Truth be told there's no rhyme or reason. Padillah (talk) 15:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

His father, John Adams was the 2nd President 199.47.41.143 (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

What little faith I had in the American education system is plummeting quickly. As far as the rhyme or reason for the use of the middle name/initial on some presidents vs. others. You'd have to ask historians about that. The naming of our articles on the presidents seem to be inline with how they are referred to by historians and thus inline with the common names guideline. Barack H. Obama and Barack Hussein Obama are only common names amongst an extreme minority and thus the article is using his common name. --Bobblehead 16:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

And, in a practical sense, there's no Barack W. Obama or Barack Q. Obama out there he's likely to be confused with. PhGustaf (talk) 05:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Just as an aside, many early presidents, including Abraham Lincoln, did not have middle names at all. Tad Lincoln (talk) 06:19, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, imagine how silly we would look if we had "Jimmy E. Carter" and "Bill J. Clinton". Baseball Bugs 04:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I would also point out that prior to W. George H.W. Bush was generally referred to simply as George Bush AFAIK. Even nowadays, I suspect if you say George Bush people are more likely to assume you mean H.W. then W. Nil Einne (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I cannot find sources, but the answer is simply the stylings in cycles. Notice that Grant, Hayes, Garfield and Arthur all served in the same historical clustering as post Civil War presidents, and that the other five you mentioned succeeded each other in a similar cluster of time. GW was to differentiate between his father, much as we do John Quincy Adams. Keegan 07:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

2 "References" sections

Shouldn't the one containing the {{reflist}} tag be called Notes per WP:CITE and for both consistency and accessibility. It does not make sense to have them both named the same thing. I didn't want to make the change without discussion. Calebrw (talk) 05:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed it to Notes and References. I don't see where this would have been a controversial change... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

It was originally called notes. Some editor changed it without bothering to ask or to look and see that there was a separate section called "references". I thought I had reverted, but it seems that it didn't work for some reason. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Calebrw (talk) 20:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Occidental College

Does it really matter that he didn't graduate from there? He spent half his undergraduate career there. Why discount it just because it wasn't where he spent his final years? I don't think there's anything wrong with being inclusive here. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:15, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)

Everyone please stop reverting the article. Telling others to discuss the issue in your edit summary doesn't make it okay. Discuss the issue here yourself or shut the hell up. Equazcion •✗/C • 03:57, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)

According to the Alma mater article, that term applies to "the university or college from where a person has attended or graduated." Under that definition, Occidental College should be mentioned in the Infobox. SMP0328. (talk) 04:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. And by the way, Equazcion, I edited this passage ONCE. That is nowhere near WP:3RR, in spirit or in reality. So the next time you crawl up on a high horse and decide to call someone out in an edit summary, it might be smart for you to get your facts straight. And I have now done #2, as this user's revert was clearly done in bad faith as an exercise in point-making, rather than in the spirit of improving the article. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I was in error when I warned you of 3RR. That having been said, 3RR isn't absolute. You're not supposed to edit war in order to get your version of the article instated, but discuss instead. And there was absolutely nothing bad-faith about my edit. There's no need for accusations. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:22, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)

Tarc, in restoring the reference to Occidental College in the Infobox, referred to its removal as a "bad faith edit". I don't agree with that description. While I agree with the restoration, I believe the removal was in good faith. Whether "alma mater" included Occidental College was not clear. SMP0328. (talk) 04:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I was specifically referring to Equazcion's edit, not the newbie's. The former was made to make a point about a (wrong) assumption about 3RR. Not about the subject matter itself. Tarc (talk) 05:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It was an attempt to put a stop to the edit warring, not to make a point about 3RR. As someone relatively uninvolved I thought it might do the trick. If I were an admin I would've protected the article instead, but since I'm not, this seemed like the next best thing. There's nothing bad-faith about that. You'll notice I actually reverted to the version I disagree with. Besides which, if you think continuing the revert war based on the subject matter is somehow more proper, I'd say you're mistaken. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:37, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)

The best way to put a stop to the edit warring is simply not to edit it again, but to come here and discuss it. While it may be irking that editors put in their edit summaries: "please discuss in talk page first," it means just that. Why not discuss it before elevating the issue to a revert war. While WP:BOLD may mean at times go on in and fix what you see wrong, it also means that maybe it might be better to bring it to the talk page first and discuss it. Sometimes what you see wrong may not actually be wrong in the first place, or is a product of a long running argument that led to a consensus version. Changing things because you, as the editor, want to see it differently is not a good excuse to change things and can even be argued as just trying to make a WP:POINT. Brothejr (talk) 10:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Palin attended FIVE different colleges for her B.A. alone, but the only one listed is the University of Idaho. Why? BECAUSE THAT'S HER ALMA MATER. Your alma mater is not "any school you attended", it's WHERE YOU GRADUATED FROM. I cannot find a single other Misplaced Pages page, besides Obama's, that features a school that person DID NOT graduate from as their "alma mater." It's ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.111.52 (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Technically, an alma mater is anywhere you attended. Graduation is irrelevant. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Technically, that doesn't matter. The only places traditionally considered "alma mater" and the once places recorded in this spot on someone's Wiki page are where they graduated from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.73.111.52 (talk) 20:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I Agree 72.207.65.76 (talk) 07:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Obama spent two years each at Occidental and Colombia. They were both important to his education and both deserve mention in the infobox. I bet Occidental considers him enough of an alumnus to ask him for money. PhGustaf (talk) 07:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

For those arguing for one college equals one Alma Mater, then how about this real life example: A person goes into a program where they first start out in one college for two years. Then they finish their last two years in a different college graduating with a bachelors degree. After a couple more years they attended a third university and attained their master degree. Finally they went to a fourth university and graduated with a doctorate. They technically graduated all four colleges, receives alumni mailings from all four colleges, and thinks fondly of all four colleges. Which is their Alma Mater? (I personally know this person and I've heard of hundred and hundreds of others doing the same thing.) Brothejr (talk) 09:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Facts about Barack Obama

President Obama's Oratory Skills

Cultural and Political Image

I recommend an addition to the second paragraph of this section starting “Many have argued that Obama is and adept orator on par with other renowned speakers…” While this paragraph goes to great lengths to mention President Obama’s oratory skills, it does not address his use of Teleprompters. While it is expected that he would use it for state addresses, his constant use of them for small trivial appearances begins to question his oratory skills. There have been a few occasions were the Teleprompters had failed and the President was criticized for less than spectacular speeches. I would recommend adding the following after the first sentence of the second paragraph:

However, President Obama has also been recently criticized for the constant use of Teleprompters.

I would also recommend adding the following references:

Moesbob (talk) 02:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps add to the teleprompter article? This article is intended to set forth the facts concerning Obama, not criticisms, not supports. Just the facts, sir.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

How do the editors here respond to this? http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114

Hi, if you read this talk page, you will see several discussions that touch on it. There is also a discussion going on at WP:AN/I. Please feel free to join in, but if you do, please sign your posts. Thanks!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I would respond that it is biased, unreliably sourced, fringe nutjobbery that has no place in an legitimate encyclopedia such as this. Tarc (talk) 03:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

What, the teleprompter question? Anyway, teleprompters can be fun. I recall when LBJ was droning on through one of his boring speeches when he suddenly started to repeat himself - something had gone wrong on the teleprompter, and he had to improvise. One of the funnier moments in a Presidency that pretty much lacked in humor. Baseball Bugs 03:23, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposal

I think we should add some sort of special talk header at the top of the page informing WND propagandists that their website cannot and will not be used as a reliable source for whatever claims they want to add to the article. --Whip it! 03:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Is WorldNetDaily ever considered a reliable source? If not, then I don't see what good adding such a header only to this article would do. SMP0328. (talk) 03:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, for WP:SELFPUB, in their own article, they can be. Not for anything else. I don't think a header will work. These people are intent on enlightening us as to their views.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggest IAR and semi protection of talk page

I'm aware of the policy that both an article and a talk page should be protected simultaneously. Due to the heavy vandalism of this talk page, suggest we IAR and semi protect this talk page anyway for a limited period, say 72 hours.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

There's a strategy in play, referenced on WP:ANI, to let as many of these lunatics as possible expose themselves here, so that the checkuser case can cast as broad a net as possible. Baseball Bugs 04:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Are Misplaced Pages Admins like Bugs allowed to resort to name calling? 64.53.138.18 (talk) 05:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If I am an admin, then I am allowed. Baseball Bugs 06:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The talk page is the place for IPs and new users to point out errors on a semiprotected article. Sometimes they make good points, albeit not so much today. But I'm not in favor of disabling that feature. Now, if we could sell tickets to the talk page while the WND zoo is around... PhGustaf (talk) 04:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think what Bugsy meant was Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Barrack Obama. I'm all for cracking down on sockpuppetry, but the downside of leaving the page unprotected for that purpose is having to revert anti-Obama/Liberal/Wikipedia rants and other types of vandalism almost literally every five seconds, which is a real pain in the ass to do. --Whip it! 04:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Maybe the user who requested leaving the shields down (was it Wikidemo?) should be consulted to see if he's got enough fish now. Baseball Bugs 04:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, who died and appointed me Wiki-dictator? It was just a suggestion. There are people around here who know a lot more than I do about CU and how to manage article melt-downs. But yes, I think we've had enough fun watching this. If there's sockpuppetry I'll bet we will find it at this point. If not, I think playing whack-a-mole with a swarm of dittoheads is not going to help the encyclopedia, and it will only give the dittoheads more to complain about. Wikidemon (talk) 05:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I have posted it on the request for protection page. I asked for semi-protection. That should put the breaks on the IP's and the redlinks, anyway. Baseball Bugs 05:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection is warranted in this extreme case. No comment on the content of t6e article other than that it isn't as balanced as it could be. Enigma 05:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think protecting might just give them something else to shout about - they do love a potential conspiracy. Better to just quietly revert and not create another cause. Mfield (talk) 06:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it may be moving beyond the scope of checkuser at this point. As the Good Word trickles down from the WND/Drudge queen bees down on to the unwashed masses, it is likely going to be different people with the same agenda. There's already a topic over at the FreeRepublic ("Misplaced Pages Scrubs Ayers and Wright From Obama Biography", can't link directly) about this and how to hit protected pages. Tarc (talk) 05:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

De-collapsed FAQ; collapsed internal questions to make more adhd friendly

Since it's pretty clear that a lot of people are seemingly unable or unwilling to read the FAQ when it's collapsed, I've gone ahead and de-collapsed it, but made it quite a bit less space-consuming by collapsing the answers, leaving only the questions as headers to collapsible sections. Hopefully this will help a bit more. --slakr 05:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That's much better. It does take up a lot more vertical space, but that horse is out of the barn already, and people are more likely to read it if they can see which questions are addressed there. — Gavia immer (talk) 06:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Skydiver99

Suggestion that fringe controversies be treated uniformly

Comparison to standard/policy of George W. Bush Article

Conspiracy theory article

Folks might want to have a look at the recent edit history of Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. I don't know if I'll be reverted again, but I have to go, and besides I'm at my third revert, although I think it's pretty clear that this stuff meets WP:FRINGE and that the overall consensus here is that it is, indeed, a fringe approach. Cosmic Latte (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No Mention of Wright

While the policy in A5 (not mentioning "fairly minor issues no significant legal or mainstream political impact) would seem to keep any mention of Obama's citizenship controversy out of his article, I don't think the same can be said for his association with Reverend Wright and the church where he preached. Those had both significant and mainstream impact. Does someone disagree? Lawyer2b (talk) 09:49, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It's probably worth somewhere between two words and a sentence, as a matter of proportionality. It currently has a sentence, but in a footnote. If moved back into the main section it should be posed in a way that focuses on the relationship to Obama, and his decision to leave the church in light of the controversy, as opposed to focusing on Wright himself or the relatively modest campaign issue. However, it may be difficult to achieve any kind of consensus for a little while here given the editing issues.Wikidemon (talk) 10:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggest waiting a couple days for the wnd and drudge trolling to die down and then posting a proposed edit here for consensus discussion. cheers, --guyzero | talk 10:10, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

With the amount of press that this had, including Obama having to address this publicly, there must be some mention in the text itself, perhaps a sentence or two, with a wikilink or a {{main}}/{{see also}} to the proper article. While it should not, and cannot be allowed to take an undue role here, its only mention coming in a footnote smacks of POV hagiography which expressly violated WP:NPOV. -- Avi (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I would respectfully recommend three mentions of Wright. First, as Obama's mentor. Obama himself said so, and Wright's role in Obama's person life, as marriage officiator, baptiser and spiritual advisor. Seocnd, "The Audacity of Hope" title comes from a speech from Wright. This should be mentioned. Third, the leaving of Wright's church because of a swell of controversy. These three points should be understood by the reader. It tells the full arc of Obama and Wright's relationship. By putting each point in the article in places where it relates, we can avoid POV as none of these ponts directly relate to the views and controversial aspects of Wright and therefore we can avoid making the page about Wright directly. Bytebear (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if you feel those should be in the article, then you are going to need to find a couple sources to back each of those parts up. The ref's cannot be World News Daily, Free Republic, Blogs, etc. The ref must pass WP:RS and WP:V and if you are not sure, post it up on the RS/N for a check. Also, the ref's must exactly say each of those points, nothing can be implied. There cannot be any synthesis or original research. If you can find ref's that passes all then, post them here and we can discuss the changes. Brothejr (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I know this was probably missed in the edit warring, but Thatcher seems to have added a rather NPOV and reliably sourced mention of Wright into the Personal life and family section. I'd say we keep it, personally.;) --Bobblehead 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The man went to the guy's church for 20 years, was married by him, had his daughters baptized by hime, and gave a lengthly national explanation about him and yet Wikepedia feels this is too minor to mention in the man's biography? Amazing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.236.112.195 (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No NPOV tag?

How can anyone assert with a straight face that "Editors are NOT currently in dispute concerning points of view expressed in this article"? As long as these "discussions" rage here on the talk page -- specifically concerning the balance/neutrality of the article -- how can the NPOV tag be inappropriate? Opelio (talk) 09:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree. Lawyer2b (talk) 09:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Given the recent disruption, and concern over the legitimacy and intent of a number of the edits, this is not a good time to be considering this. Let the dust settle, see who is truly interested in improving the article, and we can consider it then. However, I do not see that a viable argument has been raised that the article has bias problems or that editors who have participated to any significant degree in the article believe there is such an urgent problem.Wikidemon (talk) 09:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Could someone please remove this tag? And please don't re-add it. There is little constructive discussion at the moment, and what is here is a mess. If we get past the sudden influx of suspicious editors, and external assaults on Misplaced Pages, and can't resolve this after going through the appropriate discussion and dispute resolution channels, then at least you have an argument for it.Wikidemon (talk) 10:08, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal who uses Conservapedia as a source of humour rather than information, but I have to agree that there are serious POV issues with this article. Not to have a single mention of Ayers or Wright on either this page or the presidential campaign page (although they are on the primary campaign page) seems incredible. As several people have said, Misplaced Pages isn't about truth, it's about verifiability and it's clearly verifiable that both men caused large issues for Obama during both campaigns. The Wright controversy was so big it gets its own article. I would have to say they warrant a brief mention on this page. --Rpeh 10:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think talk of this article being biased because it doesnt mention those issues is wrong, if they were left off the Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008 or Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 articles then that would be clear bias but its debatable if these issues were so important they deserve a mention on Obamas main article when theres so many sub articles going into more details about these things anyway. However a sentence or two at the most in the campaign section on this article mentioning them (or some of the setbacks during the campaign) would do no harm so i agree it should be included, especially the Jeremiah Wright thing because that issue led to his "race speech" which the media everywhere got obsessed with. But even if its not added i dont think the NPOV tag is justified. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're married and your spouse says, "There is a marriage problem," there is a marriage problem BY DEFINITION, whether you think there is or not. IF the NPOV tag means that some editors think the article may not conform to the NPOV policy, isn't it BY DEFINITION correctly placed on the article? Lawyer2b (talk) 11:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont think its biased there for i dont think the tag is needed but if many editors do think the article is biased then the tag should remain. Just because one or two editors claim its biased doesnt justify the tag, people disagree and make claims on many articles.. half the wikipedia articles would need tagging if a small minority disagreeing with something led to a dispute or npov tag. I dont see any reason why there shouldnt be a sentence or two in the campaign section on some of the issues mention above and if people cant provide any decent reasons against it they should be added. If someone then removes it with out explanation, the tag would be justified in my mind. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:14, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no way to tell if many editors think the article is biased. Back in the fall we had a bunch of accounts claiming that the article was a whitewash because it didn't disparage Obama enough. They turned out to be a few editors who had each created multiple fake accounts. The article has been quiet between then and now. Now we have a huge surge of people mostly making the same claims, often uninformed and impertinent. Decent reasons have been given over the course of months, which may all be discussed in due time in an appropriate fashion. Nothing under serious challenge or dispute should be added at this point, particularly not an NPOV tag, without some consensus. Wikidemon (talk) 11:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors are simply blocking the NPOV tag due to their own bias (check history, the most recent edit was removing the NPOV tag with 0 seconds of discussion). If someone removed all of the criticisms in George W Bush's entry, that the leftists here wouldn't slap NPOV on it immediately. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. Criticism of Michael Moore was pushed to a secondary article, and criticism of Al Gore (including his insane ramblings about 'global warming') has been getting scrubbed since Misplaced Pages has existed. I think you can expect more debate on this subject now that Misplaced Pages's leftist bias has again been exposed. Sniper Fox (talk) 12:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Can we please remove the tag again now. And make sure it stays off? Wikidemon (talk) 13:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this last comment pass without saying something. By referring to left-leaning folks as "leftists", making comments about Al Gore's "insane ramblings", and using WND as a reference you have disqualified yourself from usefully contributing to this discussion by exposing shocking right-wing bias. Decisions about what should and should not be in Misplaced Pages articles should be based on facts verified by a preponderance of reliable sources and carefully weighted to present a neutral point of view (which is not the same as presenting all points of view). The neutrality of this article is only disputed by biased editors seeking to make it fit their own point of view. An examination of the extensive talk page archive will reveal how thoroughly and carefully every aspect of this article has been debated and discussed, and the text is the result of reaching a painstaking consensus on each detail. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:19, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As I said before, I'm definitely a left-wing editor and I'd still argue that the article is biased - albeit in a way that happens to support my personal opinions. The fact that two highly noteworthy events have been left off the article, both of which had negative connotations for Obama, seems odd. What's worse is that I've not seen any good reason why this should be the case. This debate has descended into "you're a biased lefty" if you want them off and "you're a biased conservative" if you want them on. If there is a genuine reason why neither story should appear - all I'm suggesting is a brief mention in the campaign section - then fine. Until then, it really does appear to be a very biased article that pushes a certain POV. --Rpeh 13:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The two "noteworthy" events you are referring to have both received considerable discussion (please see the talk page archive). In both cases, they are only noteworthy in the context of one of Obama's political campaigns, whereas this article seeks to represent a summary of his entire life. When viewed from a historical perspective, it is clear that these events are not "noteworthy" at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm going to have to agree with Scjessey to a degree here. WND is a little to the right of Goldwater, and a little less reliable than my high school gossip maven. If an article "agrees" with WND, it is a clear indicator the article is strongly biased, and almost certainly contains serious factual errors. KillerChihuahua 13:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) They're not "left out" - they're in the appropriate articles. Every major politician has so many items that they do not all fit in the main article, and a great deal of discussion and thought goes into which items are in which article of the family of articles about each individual. Sarah Palin's editors discussed at great length before deciding what was appropriate in her main article, and what was appropriate in her candidacy article, and what was appropriate in her mayoralty article, for example. "Not in this article" does not mean "not here on Misplaced Pages". KillerChihuahua 13:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah. As I was typing that last comment and then being eced twice, Thatcher has added a section about Wright, linking to the controversy article. I think that's pretty much fine now. It just needed a mention. --Rpeh 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with KillerChihuahua. The World Net Daily and Washington Times are not widely seen to my knowledge as mainstream sources. Their influence is roughly on par with something like Free Republic or The 700 Club, and they aren't widely acknowledged (or even known) by most of America or global audiences. They ought to be weighted and handled on par with similar sources. rootology (C)(T) 13:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'm glad the wiki credibility issues are being brought forth in the mainstream media. The wiki entry for Barack Obama reads like a love letter, while GWB's reads like a HuffPo or DailyKOS entry. There needs to be uniformity, or there will be ZERO credibility. This comment will be deleted in 3...2...1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.12.12.2 (talk) 15:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

ROFL - which "mainstream media" are you referring to? Surely not WDN, Drudge or some other fringe website? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't usually bother with the political articles, because they are usually very neutral. Unfortunately, President Obama is a bit of a special case since his political rise and election has been rather meteoric. Scjessey, your analysis would be right if it were not for the fact that, up until now, Obama's 2008 electoral campaign is by far **the** most significant event in his young life. To put a mention of the biggest controversy faced in that time in his life is not bias. WND is not crazy, just decidedly right wing. That does not make it entirely innacurate. Though I am still pretty sure of good faith still being acted upon (especially with the new Wright mention) I think Wikidemon is the most correct here in saying the article should and probably will most likely change some when the hubbub has died down, and the trollers are gone. --XF22B (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XF22B (talk • contribs) 15:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Clearly a POV or unbalanced tag until the censorship of this article ends. It needs to mention the notable controversies and/or provide wikilinks to those articles. Rev. Wright wasn't a fringe story, it was covered by the mainstream press and was something Obama gave two speeches about. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

New section: first African-American

It is a misrepresentation that Barack Obama is the first African-American to become President of the United States. He is the first bi-racial man to become the president of the United States. This is verifiable through the fact that his mother was Caucasian. Michelle Obama is the first African-American to be the First Lady. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elsie4120 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It is how he is commonly referred to, and he has never indicated he prefers another descriptor. We might as well keep it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Please review the FAQ at the top of this page as well. Wikidemon (talk) 13:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Race is a social construct which depends on self-indentification. Obama identifies as African-American. Reliable sources call him the first African-American to be POTUS. We can only follow available, reliable sources. At the same time, his origins are clear in the article. Guettarda (talk) 13:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

As has been said around eleventy-billion times, the "African American" designation comes from the preponderance of reliable sources that refer to Obama in this way. Some reliable sources use the term "bi-racial" (or something similar), but most (several orders of magnitude more) use "African American", and Misplaced Pages must necessarily reflect this. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Obama calls himself African-American, and so does all the mainstream, non-fringe media, so that's what we call him. rootology (C)(T) 13:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition, Elsie, have you read the FAQ at the top of this page? There is a useful discussion of this very point there.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Consensus overrides Wiki rules of notability?

Presidents

I am new to Misplaced Pages I have read all the rules and regulations.My purpose of coming here was to read about American Presidents .I first read about the 43rd President George Walker Bush and then the 44th President Barack Obama , Anyone reading about Obama and not knowing his history would think he is a Saint,as opposed to Bush where every rumor and innuendo against his character is included.Shouldn't Obama admitting to alchohol and drug abuse and his association with anti American zealots and convicted criminals be included .You have not published a fair and balanced portayal of both men.You have contravened a host of your own rules and regulations and make me wonder about your objectivity and veracity of your entire web site. Jock311 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)]

If that is your assessment, I'm afraid you have completely misunderstood Misplaced Pages's rules and guidelines. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Give him a break, Scjessey. If he's new and yet has read all of them, he must have read at an average of, uh ... how many kilobytes per second? -- Hoary (talk) 15:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

To be fair Bush was President for eight very controversial years. Obama's been President for a month and a half. You wonder why there's more in Bushs' article? Could it be that bush was President for 64 times longer than Obama? Give him a minute. Padillah (talk) 15:32, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

George W. Bush is at it's current location because of his father George H. W. Bush. If GWB's father had not been president as well, it's likely GWB's article would be located at George Bush, but in order to disambiguate the two articles from each other, we had to create separate articles and chose a more precise name for their articles. You'll also notice the first sentence in this article where it rather clearly starts off with Barack Hussein Obama II. Thanks for playing though. --Bobblehead 15:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Grammar

If somebody who's not on a mission from some loony-right website may raise a point hereabouts....

"Neither Obama nor McCain are is a Martian." / "The race was between Obama and McCain, neither of whom were was Martian." / "Nixon bequeathed Liddy and Colson, neither of whom have has met the fate that he deserves." In my idiolect, anyway.

Obama also introduced Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections and the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, neither of which have been signed into law.

In my idiolect, wrong. However, my learned friend Scjessey disagrees. Polite of him/her to compliment me on my faith; but faith be damned, it's grammar that interests me.

(I'd also stick a comma after "elections", or, better, put the phrase "a bill ... elections" in a pair of parentheses rather than commas.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Obama also introduced the Deceptive Practices and Voter Intimidation Prevention Act, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, and the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, neither of which have been signed into law.

That's my take on the phrasing. Padillah (talk) 15:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying Obama also introduced and , neither of which have is grammatically correct? If so, I can only say that your idiolect and mine are different. -- Hoary (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

"Neither" is singular and should take "has" in this case. You may now resume reverting SPA IPs. PhGustaf (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is not a straightforward as that. It appears that either usage is acceptable (info on this). -- Scjessey (talk) 15:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

No Negative Information Mentioned....??

Screw You & Your Website Misplaced Pages!! You are a Liberal backed site, therefore do not show any negative information regarding this person's background. I am Boycotting your site since I know now that your site is bias, and will not show how dishonest and repulsive that the current President of the USA actually is!! World Net Daily has dedicated this report; http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91114 in your honor. Good Luck with your Liberal-Left Wing site you Bums!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.111.82 (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Censorship

Please stop removing the unbalanced or POV tag from the article. Until mention of notable controversies and criticisms are included, this article needs to be fixed. Adding a see also section that links to the notable stories is another possibility. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

1. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19663.html
2. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/15/obamas-teleprompter-hits-the-trail/
3. http://news.aol.com/article/obamas-teleprompter-use-debated/372666
4. Lois Romano (February 3, 2004). "Bush's Guard Service In Question". Washington Post. Retrieved September 1, 2008.

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