Revision as of 23:19, 27 March 2009 editDomer48 (talk | contribs)16,098 edits →{{anchor|toptoc}}Edit this section for new requests: sanctions breech← Previous edit | Revision as of 23:26, 27 March 2009 edit undoSandstein (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators188,524 edits →Breech of sanctions: commentNext edit → | ||
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:::He did right at the top. The article falls under 1RR, 1 revert per 24 hours, Mooretwin has made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours. And I provided less information for a breach of the same sanction from the same case in the section below, and that was dealt with. ] (]) 22:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC) | :::He did right at the top. The article falls under 1RR, 1 revert per 24 hours, Mooretwin has made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours. And I provided less information for a breach of the same sanction from the same case in the section below, and that was dealt with. ] (]) 22:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC) | ||
::::... Yes, I see. This request is inartfully composed in that it does not make clear that the block of text starting with "''All articles related to The Troubles,..."'' is the operative ''arbitration remedy of that case''. What I expect to see in a request for arbitration enforcement is a statement like: | |||
:::::"User:X made the following edits which violate remedy no. X in arbitration case Y , according to which , because ." | |||
::::The request below I forgot; apparently, the operative remedy was linked to in the first diff provided, allowing me to deal with the case. | |||
::::This may sound bureaucratic, but I do not know all these cases by heart, and I do not wish to comb through them a second more than absolutely necessary. It's incumbent upon those requesting enforcement to do this. This allows us to filter out the many frivolous requests we get here as fast as possible. | |||
:::: In this particular case, I would still expect to be provided with the explanation the rules request. As a non-knowledgeable admin, I'd need an explanation for such things as how does this ], which happened in 1916, relate to ], which according to its article happened from the 1960s onwards. | |||
:::: Meanwhile, I have blocked {{vandal|Mooretwin}} for a month for simple editwarring on that article, taking into account his repeated blocks for similar conduct. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC) | |||
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Edit this section for new requests
Breech of sanctions 2
Arbcom case: The Troubles.
"All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related."
Mooretwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Mooretwin has made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours, first revert, second revert and third revert. He is well aware of the 1RR sanction outlined above, after being blocked for breeching it several times.--Domer48'fenian' 23:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Breech of sanctions
Arbcom case: The Troubles.
"All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, the Baronetcies, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under 1RR. When in doubt, assume it is related."
Mooretwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Mooretwin has twice reverted back to his preferred version in less than 24 hours, first revert. second revert and third revert. He is well aware of the 1RR sanction after being blocked for breeching it several times. --Domer48'fenian' 22:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Please provide all information required per "Using this page", above, or this request will be closed. Sandstein 07:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- What more information do you need, the report looks complete to me? Note that Mooretwin has now made his third revert in less than 24 hours. O Fenian (talk) 10:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Mooretwin has been behaving this way on various Irish related articles for some time and seems indifferent to multiple bans. It must surely be time to consider a longer term deterrent. --Snowded (talk) 11:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree O Fenian, but however. I've added additional information, if User:Sandstein wants me to add all the warnings, final warnings and blocks, they need only ask. --Domer48'fenian' 13:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have addressed all of User:Sandstein requests. --Domer48'fenian' 18:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, you haven't. The instructions request you to provide "a brief summary of how this behavior is linked to the principles, findings of fact, remedies, and/or enforcement mechanism of the arbitration case." I see no such information here. How did the user, by making the edits that you link to, violate arbitration remedies or sanctions, and which? Sandstein 21:56, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- He did right at the top. The article falls under 1RR, 1 revert per 24 hours, Mooretwin has made 3 reverts in less than 24 hours. And I provided less information for a breach of the same sanction from the same case in the section below, and that was dealt with. O Fenian (talk) 22:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- ... Yes, I see. This request is inartfully composed in that it does not make clear that the block of text starting with "All articles related to The Troubles,..." is the operative arbitration remedy of that case. What I expect to see in a request for arbitration enforcement is a statement like:
- "User:X made the following edits which violate remedy no. X in arbitration case Y , according to which , because ."
- The request below I forgot; apparently, the operative remedy was linked to in the first diff provided, allowing me to deal with the case.
- This may sound bureaucratic, but I do not know all these cases by heart, and I do not wish to comb through them a second more than absolutely necessary. It's incumbent upon those requesting enforcement to do this. This allows us to filter out the many frivolous requests we get here as fast as possible.
- In this particular case, I would still expect to be provided with the explanation the rules request. As a non-knowledgeable admin, I'd need an explanation for such things as how does this Easter Rising, which happened in 1916, relate to The Troubles, which according to its article happened from the 1960s onwards.
- Meanwhile, I have blocked Mooretwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for a month for simple editwarring on that article, taking into account his repeated blocks for similar conduct. Sandstein 23:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- ... Yes, I see. This request is inartfully composed in that it does not make clear that the block of text starting with "All articles related to The Troubles,..." is the operative arbitration remedy of that case. What I expect to see in a request for arbitration enforcement is a statement like:
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Breach of sanctions
Blocked for a week. Sandstein 08:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Arbcom case: The Troubles.
89.217.188.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The editor has twice reverted back to their own disputed version in less than 24 hours, revert 1 and revert 2. They were informed of the sanctions here prior to making their second revert. O Fenian (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- User is also lobbying editors on one side of the various Irish conflicts and appears to be a newly created IP for this topic only, with knowledge of who has been involved in prior debates. Original edit by User: 84.227.57.175 who from the style is the same editor --Snowded (talk) 05:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Colonies Chris is still delinking dates in violation of the injunction
See, e.g., these 11 edits of his: Cartagena, Colombia, Faith Lutheran College, Redlands, P-38 Lightning, Wynn Harmon, Enoch Powell, Bottom (TV series), Johnny Cymbal, George E. Staples, Cray, Liz Callaway, and Buick Skylark. He was previously blocked for 24 hours on March 6, 2009, for violating the injunction. Tennis expert (talk) 10:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC) Colonies Chris has been notified about this post. Tennis expert (talk) 10:41, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- You were told numerous times that the injunction does not forbid occasional delinking in the course of normal editing. The links above contain multiple manual wiki-gnomish changes and corrections and are thus legitimate. You know that. This is a frivolous complaint. Cut it out, now, or you will be blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Even under your interpretation of the injunction, Colonies Chris's edits of the Cray article linked above were not "occasional delinking in the course of normal editing" because 4 of his 10 edits involved date delinking. Nor was his edit of Association of Polish Artists and Designers, the sole purpose of which was to delink years. By the way, why are you so hostile and eager to assume bad faith? I honestly don't understand it. Tennis expert (talk) 12:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I am hostile to the continued bickering. Simple as that. The permanent stream of complaints and counter-complaints harms the project far, far more than any actual edits could. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- The injunction stipulates that editors should refrain from engaging "in any program of mass linking or delinking of dates", as opposed to occasional delinking in the course of normal editing, so I don't consider that any action is necessary. PhilKnight (talk) 13:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, that's your opinion, FPS, as expressed earlier this month when you insisted on the immediate cessation of blocking editors for violating the injunction and claimed that the whole discussion was ridiculous. But others believe that repeatedly violating the injunction is inherently far more harmful to Misplaced Pages and the arbitration process than any kind of "bickering" on the arbitration enforcement discussion page ever could be. The disagreements continue because: (1) the arbitration injunction is considered to be ambiguous by many; (2) the many discussions about the injunction since it was issued are hopelessly conflicting; (3) the arbitration committee itself has chosen not to clarify its own injunction, despite repeated requests to do so; and (4) administrators can't seem to agree among themselves about what the injunction means. So, when all the circumstances are considered, the one certainty is the fact that editors, including Colonies Chris, have been blocked for virtually the same kinds of edits that Colonies Chris has made since his last block. If administrators do not want to sanction Colonies Chris for his latest edits, then the community needs to know it so that date linking and delinking can continue (or resume) without hostility, threats, attempted mind reading, or assumptions of bad faith from administrators. That's only fair (or in the interests of natural justice or due process or whatever one wants to call it). Tennis expert (talk) 13:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- All the more reason to draw a line in the sand, and close off this complaint. Only then will these – I've lost count now – vexatious pieces of Wikilaywering stop. As pointed out by Colonies Chris below, there is a potentially much more serious complaint worthy of investigation. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:49, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Please note that my second edit to Association of Polish Artists and Designers was solely in order to revert the bare year linking that had been performed by User:KokkaShinto, which seems to be an account created only a few days ago for the single purpose of linking years. I suggest that account should be investigated for injunction violation and possible sockpuppetry. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Greek nationalist disruption on Republic of Macedonia
Request for sanctions declined. Requesting moves in opposition to clear consensus can be disruptive (but see WP:CCC), and reverting an admin close of a discussion most often is. I am not persuaded, however, by the evidence presented here that the request was made in an intent to disrupt Misplaced Pages and that it (as well as the revert) justifies WP:ARBMAC sanctions. This does not rule out ordinary sanctions by uninvolved admins (warning, brief blocks etc.), but the issue seems moot now because the move request has been (and remains) closed. The tone of this request is, I think, unbecoming a longtime administrator, and I am simply disgusted at the unproductive mud-slinging that the rest of the thread has mostly turned into, so I'm closing it. (Note for those whom it may concern: This closure is not to be construed as endorsing anyone's actions or position in this matter.) Sandstein 22:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
ΚΕΚΡΩΨ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (Kekrops), a party in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia in 2007, is a long-term Greek nationalist POV-pusher with an obsession about the name of the Republic of Macedonia (note his original arbitration statement). Greek nationalists object to the naming of the state and insist on calling it FYROM ("Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia") instead. They have repeatedly unilaterally attempted to rename the Republic of Macedonia article - which is why it's on indefinite move protection - and the issue has been discussed dozens of times by Kekrops and others, to such an extent that the naming issue has its own talk subpage. The current name was decided as far back as 2002, is supported by policy and has been stable for a long time. Kekrops has a history of Macedonia-related disruption; he has previously been blocked and placed on revert parole for repeatedly reverting templates and articles that do not use his favoured wording.
After another editor began discussion about the use of the term "FYROM" on the Greece article (see Talk:Greece#FYROM), Kekrops decided to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point by proposing, in bad faith, a move of Republic of Macedonia to a name favoured by Greek nationalists, "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". . I closed it yesterday as an obvious bad-faith disruption; he has this morning reopened it to continue the disruption . It will doubtless end with no consensus or a majority against the move, but in the meantime a great deal of time will be wasted and further disruption will be caused with the usual sockpuppetry, off-wiki canvassing and nationalist ranting from both Greeks and Macedonians. Kekrops is well aware that the proposal is futile; the aim is to prove his case that Misplaced Pages is biased against the Greek nationalist POV.
This is not only an attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point but is also a clear attempt to game the system. Both actions have been specifically prohibited by the Arbitration Committee in relation to Macedonia-related articles (see WP:ARBMAC#Decorum). I therefore propose a topic ban for Kekrops on Macedonia-related articles, for a period of not less than three months. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Firstly, I must express my strong objection to the personal attacks above. They are no doubt a progression of some of User:ChrisO's previous ethnic attacks on Greek editors. I fail to see how my proposal constitutes "Greek nationalist disruption". I have elaborated by position exclusively on the basis of Misplaced Pages policy, and posed a legitimate question regarding the rigour with which it is applied. I reiterated the proposal only after it was brought to my attention that requests for page moves should follow the procedure outlined at WP:RM, and certainly not to cause "further disruption" or anything of the sort. Finally, I disagree that it is an exercise in futility. Misplaced Pages policy is clear: common English usage takes precedence over self-identification, and it is my contention that the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is the most common term in the English language after plain "Macedonia", which according to WP:NC is ambiguous and therefore unsatisfactory. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I do not agree with Kekrops' proposal, not because I do not understand his reasoning but because I see no consensus in order to move to the direction he desires. I have serious concerns however about ChrisO's actions. Let me elaborate a bit:
- ChrisO believes that "Greek nationalists object to the naming of the state and insist on calling it FYROM". It is not the first time that ChrisO labels the 99% of my people (this is the percentage of Greeks who believe that this state should not be called RoM) as nationalists (for corroboration see here how emphatically he insists on this arbitrary characterization, and generalization, as well as my reaction). The promotion of such stereotypes, these arbitrary generalizations and the way he attacks Greek users like Kekrops who do not agree with him (it is characteristic that some months ago I was also attacked by him and arbitrarily threatened with a topic-ban on an issue it was proved that I was right) make me doubt about his NPOV concerning RoM-related topics. To me ChrisO looks more like an involved user, and less like an impartial administrator.
- Despite the fact that ChrisO has lost the trust of the Greek users, he decided to rush, and close himself the move proposal by Kekrops. By acting like that, he caused the immediate reaction by various users, who critisized his decision. It was only after this wave of criticism that Kekrops re-opened the move proposal. If ChrisO had let a more impartial, more trustworthy and calm adminstrator to handle the situation, we would have probably avoided all this "drama".
- I don't deny the fact that Kekrops has committed mistakes in the past, but I just say that, in this particular case, we should take into consideration all these details, includind ChrisO's unwise handling of the situation.--Yannismarou (talk) 09:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just to note that ChrisO has been notified at least twice( and ) for not exercising his administrative powers on the issue since he is evidently heavily involved. He chose to disregard the notifications completely and to proceed in reapplying the same administrative actions to the second case, although he became even more involved in the issue. NikoSilver 10:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- There has been no use of admin powers. The purpose of this arbitration enforcement request is to request that some other uninvolved administrator use his or her admin rights to correct Kekrops' behaviour. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
It's udoubtable that the request has been made to prove a point about policy (proof). However, I would please ask admins to let the renaming request run its natural course as any other uncontroversial request, and to close it normally. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- What sparked it is irrelevant to its merit or to whether it abides policy. A wp:point applies only when the action is against policy, which is definitely not the case. NikoSilver 10:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think that an outcome of this discussion should be that ChrisO is expected not to exercise his adm powers in RoM-related topics, unless such an intervention is regarded as completely uncontroversial and consensual.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Gràcies, Enric. That's all I ask, for my proposal to receive a fair hearing on its merits, as opposed to the usual allegations of "nationalism" which are invariably invoked to stifle debate. I have pointed out a discrepancy in the practical application of Misplaced Pages policy, and I believe I have the right to request that it be reviewed. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- This is pathetic. ChrisO, as a heavily involved administrator, blatantly abuses his admin powers and closes a legitimate move request by Kekrops. His abuse is condemned by a lot of editors and his instinctive and childish response is to file an Arbitration Enforcement request against Kekrops. I'm appalled. As a side note, referring to the move request itself, the Former Yugoslav Republic in Macedonia, as ugly as it might be, is and always has been the ONLY name that has been accepted by both parties of the Macedonia naming dispute as a name for this country, currently used officially by the UN, EU and myriads other organisations. The absurdity of ChrisO's arguments is evident since he categorises these organisations as "Greek nationalists".--Avg (talk) 19:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true. There has been no use, let alone abuse, of admin powers here. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true. Let's concentrate on that then. Why do you continuously claim in you intro paragraphs to third parties that supporting the "former Yugoslav..." naming is nationalistic? You're basing your whole case in false arguments. In fact this has been one of the main issues I have with both you and Future Perfect all along. When a third party is misinformed by you that "former Yugoslav..." is something totally arbitrary and unofficial that Greek nationalists have come up with, then of course he will bias himself against Greeks. But of course this has never been the case, it's an official appelation used by UN and EU and RoM itself and you very well know that Greek nationalists fervently oppose this name because it contains the term "Macedonia" in it. You're painting a completely different picture from reality, giving Greek editors a bad name, insulting us all and causing damage to Misplaced Pages by misinforming its readers and distancing good editors from the project.--Avg (talk) 22:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true. There has been no use, let alone abuse, of admin powers here. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Request endorsed. If WP:ARBMAC were enforced more often, we could finally have discussions on this subject peacefully, civilly and dramalessly. It is clear that whenever one wishes to even slightly discuss something related to the name of the Republic of Macedonia on Misplaced Pages, this will prompt immediate bashing and disruption from a group of Greek editors. I've started a discussion on the matter recently and it quickly spiraled into accusations of censorship, double standards and racism. The article on the Republic of Macedonia was also targeted in a clearly vindictive, disruptive and WP:POINTy move proposal. Húsönd 19:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- ARBMAC is an utter failure, and this is a fact proved each day on the ground. More of what you call "enforcement" would entail more havoc. Note what I say now, and we will be here let's say one year from now to see if I am wrong or right. All these stupid topic-bans were enforced one after the other, with what result? Zero! Another one, not because of edit-warring, not because of vandalism, not because of PA or incivility, but because Kekrops went through the official channels and submitted a move proposal, will be at least unhelpful. The proposal will be discussed, probably declined and this will be the end of the story. How would a vindictive topic-ban offer us anything more? Husond, you feel badly for being accused of censorship etc., and I totally understand that. But I also feel badly when the user who initiated this thread consistently accuses me of nationalism, threatening me on the past with a topic-ban using as a bugbear ARBMAC! As you can understand, I cannot endorse the request, and I regard the possible forming of a consensual majority adopting it as a huge mistake.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- There's a good reason why Republic of Macedonia and every conceivable redirect has had to be indefinitely move-protected, and it's not because of the actions of Macedonian editors. Let's face it - the only people who are campaigning here to change the name are a small group of Greek editors. Kekrops, who kicked this off, has a track record of disruption and blocks due to his actions on the naming issue. Everybody knows this is about nationalist POV-pushing, so let's stop pretending, shall we? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's true. This is not about a racial vendetta against Greeks, just a simple conclusion of a fact easily observed- Greek editors take this naming issue of the Republic of Macedonia very personally, and will do whatever they can to disrupt and complicate any discussions. Nobody's on a witch hunt, we simply need to create an environment where discussions can occur peacefully. If that means topic-banning a few users, so be it. But the bashing against users who dare touching this sensitive matter simply cannot continue indefinitely. And like Yannismarou said, the move proposal will be declined. So why starting it in the first place? How can it not be disruptive and vindictive? Fact finding... Húsönd 20:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why starting it in the first place? In the vain hope that policy might one day be applied fully and rigorously to Macedonia-related articles, if you must know. Evidently, that will never happen so long as changes are summarily dismissed solely for being proposed by a Greek or perceived to be favourable to the Greek side in any way. And the only "bashing" going on is that levelled against those who disagree with your position, as demonstrated by this very section and by your repeated personal and ethnic attacks. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 21:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Let's stop pretending that this is about anything other than your personal disdain for Greek editors, shall we? The fact that you refuse to regard us as individuals is telling. But let's set aside your colourful rhetoric for the moment. Firstly, I am a Macedonian editor. Secondly, are you really accusing me of engaging or intending to engage in unilateral page moves? If you are, I challenge you to produce a single shred of evidence to support such a preposterous claim. Thirdly, I have only one Macedonia-related block, and that was largely the result of your entirely arbitrary behaviour regarding templates over at WP:MOSMAC. I have certainly never been blocked for disrupting any Macedonia-related article. If you are going to level such serious allegations against a fellow editor, at least have the decency to be accurate. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 21:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
ChrisO, it's not a coincidence that every single Greek editor including the most moderate ones feels terribly offended and mistreated by your abuse of administrative powers. I urge you, once more, to stop being an involved party and an involved administrator at the same time. Your repeated attacks at both an ethnic and an individual level to every single Greek editor are telling. NikoSilver 21:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Your problem is, whenever an uninvolved admin dwells into the matter, he/she gets promptly accused of bias against Greeks, racism, double standards, censorship, etc, and then finally, becomes "involved". Húsönd 21:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- ChrisO and who else? NikoSilver 21:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Good point. Where are the uninvolved administrators? It's always been the same small group of faces, for years now. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 21:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Let me put this very simply for you, Niko, since you appear to have difficulty understanding what's been written above. No admin powers have been used. You have no excuse for repeating this falsehood when it's already been addressed. Now I suggest that you move on and find something more productive to do. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- You closed the first move proposal, which is an administrative action. You did this after you had voted in it. And it is you who moved the page originally to the present title 6 years ago, so you are the most involved editor. And you're threatening everybody with the arbmac bogyman on top. Then you claim you didn't exercise any admin powers and you repeatedly accuse all Greeks of nationalism and crackpot-ism (according toy your POV, of course), plus you are assuming bad faith while accusing policy abiding actions as "pointy". NikoSilver 21:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it's clear, Chris, that the closing of the first move proposal is an adm action. No reason to deny what is obvious. Live with it and go on. We all make mistakes, me more than once; the important thing is not to repeat them. Now, as far as I am concerned, I have nothing more to add to this "making circles" page. All the arguments are presented, and I think that we now get tiring for those reading. Therefore, I am out from here and going straight to FAC to do what this project is supposed to be about: create great articles! Do you remember that! So, come and kick my ass there! It's more creative.--Yannismarou (talk) 22:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Disruptive edits to the Mehmet Talat article
Ibrahim4048 (talk · contribs) has been making repeated reverts to the Mehmet Talat article to insert the word "alleged" in front of the phrase "Armenian Genocide".
On the 22nd March he did it on five occasions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278846793&oldid=278798713
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278862357&oldid=278859393
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278962105&oldid=278946499
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278964259&oldid=278963506
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278973428&oldid=278964782
On the 21st March he did it twice
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278702548&oldid=278573478
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278755731&oldid=278743423
On the 18th March he did it twice
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278024832&oldid=277955955
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Mehmed_Talat&diff=278142291&oldid=278131324
This use of the word "alleged" contradicts the majority academic viewpoint as well as all the other Armenian Genocide-related articles on Misplaced Pages (including the main article, the Armenian Genocide entry). The proper route would be for him to present his arguments on the talk page of the Armenian Genocide article, and if they were accepted there, any changes would flow down to other articles containing Armenian Genocide-related content, including the Talat one. However, Ibrahim4048 seems intent on using only the Talat article as a platform for his marginal opinion. Under Armenia-Azerbaijan_2 Amended Remedies and Enforcement can this editor be given restrictions that will stop him from editing the Mehmet Talat article (i.e. just the Mehmet Talat article)? Meowy 21:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Meowy, I am aware that you have been involved extensively in Armenia-Azerbaijan disputes. It is my habit not to take sides in ethnic conflicts on Misplaced Pages. I think it may be better if you use one of the lesser noticeboards, such as wikiquette alerts or third opinion, to troubleshoot this editing problem. You will hopefully find that bringing in an uninvolved editor will get a positive response from the other party. If that fails, an uninvolved editor or administrator can bring the matter here, and I will be happy to enforce the arbitration decision. We should use the least possible amount of pressure to resolve problems. As a practical difficulty, we do not have many editors participating here. I'd like more input from uninvolved editors before making a decision. Jehochman 09:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is prima facie evidence of POV pushing by the Ibrahim4048 account. Could you please notify them of this thread. I'd like to hear what they have to say. It seems that the Armenian Genocide has been established as fact by scholars, and that denial is a minority view. This article provides an interesting insight into the conflict. Whether Ibrahim4048 is willing to engage in other forms of dispute resolution will color my decision here. Jehochman 09:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'd certainly support at least a revert limitation in this case. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Let's wait for the editor to respond. Jehochman 13:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I placed a note on his talk page. Meowy 20:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would have supported a restriction before, but I think we should give Ibrahim a second chance, as he has calmed down during the mediation process. Let's not bite the newbies. Tealwisp (talk) 01:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Five reverts in one day is what you call "calmed down"?Meowy 03:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Let's wait for the editor to respond. Jehochman 13:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
We are already in a mediation process which meowy has tried to sabotage by warning users not to take part in the mediation because it would give me a platform and legitimize my arguments. He is basically denying me to represent myself in this dispute. He has also been very uncivil towards me and the mediator. Tealwisp, the mediator, has reported him to the adminstrators. Some of meowy's arguments in the mediation process are valid though. Tealwisp tried (after various other compromises) to avoid the dispute by rephrasing the part so that only undisputed facts were included and the disputed part left out. By doing this information was left out that was relevant to the article. Tealwisp did it in good faith though, not because he took a certain side. I agreed to the compromise at first but changed my mind after vartanM reverted and seeing his reasons. The best solution is to come to a decision whether in this case alleged or another construction must be made to show that the genocide is disputed or that wikipedia takes a stand and accepts the genocide as an established fact and representing it as such in its articles. I would like you to read through the mediation process carefully because this dispute is not so simple as it seems. Ibrahim4048 (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Without reviewing the mediation, I would comment that Misplaced Pages does not have a remit to take a stand over a matter; it follows what reputable sources report, and within that context give due weight to conflicting references. The ArbCom has previously decided, in this matter, that some editors are not editing with regard to due weight and it needs to be shown that this is again happening. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Can you show me where this arbcom decision was taken? I already asked meowy several times whether wikipedia had made a decision to recognize the genocide. I am new to wikipedia and don't know my way around here and also don't know many of the terms that are used. Does arbcom mean arbitrary commission? Can you provide a link to the decision that was made? Ibrahim4048 (talk) 10:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- The two cases are Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. I would comment that the Arbitration Committee (or ArbCom for short) did not say that the fact of the massacre was recognised, but that appropriate weight should be given according to the references provided that did, or did not, note the massacre. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Ayn Rand
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could someone please have a kind word with Stevewunder (talk · contribs) about his topic ban (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ayn Rand#Stevewunder topic banned and warned? He is a relatively new editor, and I believe he may not understand our conventions about topic bans. He could use a little guidance, rather than a stern warning. Thanks! --Vassyana (talk) 11:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Additionally, could an uninvolved administrator please look over Ayn Rand (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), particularly in the context of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ayn Rand#Editors not named and the following remedy? Thanks! --Vassyana (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'd like to second the latter request; a couple of new editors have shown up and the climate around the article has changed to be confrontational with editor's POVs on clear display and veiled insults in every other comment. Watchlisting and intervention by experienced admins very welcome. Skomorokh 18:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Peter Damian's insults seem quite open, such as "Whoever removed this is a complete WP:DICK." and "This is easily one of the stupidest things you have said. Which is something in itself.". He provides a link to Misplaced Pages Review where he indicates that Arbcom ought to have included him in the earlier action. "Interesting that I wasn't topic-banned at all, despite having a 24-hour block from Connelly for edit-warring (and calling one of the objectivist editors a 'wakner'). Could there possibly be a political bias here? Arbcom knowing well that I have given the Rand issue a high profile as I could within the profession.". Colonel Warden (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- You were provocative you know Colonel Warden. However whoever looks at this should note that we have a set of new editors exclusively on one side of the debate (there seem to be a supply of editors ready to move into pages associated with Rand/Objectivism etc.). Skomorokh while sympathetic is doing his/her best to keep the temperature down and stay neutral. However the root cause of the behaviour issues, namely questions of evidence (which are common to other articles with cult like followings) were not addressed and are now back. In this case managing behaviour is managing symptoms not causes. --Snowded (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- If you are suggesting that I am a cult member, you are mistaken. I observed some coverage of Ayn Rand in the Economist a few weeks back and so I cited this while making some other minor changes which seemed appropriate. In the discussions today, I found another good source which seems to assist us but my thanks for this is vituperation and innuendo. It is disgraceful. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I said that questions of evidence were common to pages that attract cult like followings. The only comment I made about you directly (or by inference) was that you had been provocative (which was a good faith assumption given your comment that Peter references below). --Snowded (talk) 19:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was commenting on your remark that ""As academic philosophers take little interest in our topic, it follows that, in general, they are not a good source for it. " Does anyone deny that was a monumentally stupid thing to say? In general, you are trying your best to remove any sense of academic neutrality from this article, and I am opposing it, because academic neutrality is what I stand for in Misplaced Pages. Peter Damian (talk) 19:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- On my remark about being a WP:DICK this was directed against the idea that the Oxford Companion to Philosophy was not a reliable source. Peter Damian (talk) 19:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- If you are suggesting that I am a cult member, you are mistaken. I observed some coverage of Ayn Rand in the Economist a few weeks back and so I cited this while making some other minor changes which seemed appropriate. In the discussions today, I found another good source which seems to assist us but my thanks for this is vituperation and innuendo. It is disgraceful. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- You were provocative you know Colonel Warden. However whoever looks at this should note that we have a set of new editors exclusively on one side of the debate (there seem to be a supply of editors ready to move into pages associated with Rand/Objectivism etc.). Skomorokh while sympathetic is doing his/her best to keep the temperature down and stay neutral. However the root cause of the behaviour issues, namely questions of evidence (which are common to other articles with cult like followings) were not addressed and are now back. In this case managing behaviour is managing symptoms not causes. --Snowded (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Peter Damian's insults seem quite open, such as "Whoever removed this is a complete WP:DICK." and "This is easily one of the stupidest things you have said. Which is something in itself.". He provides a link to Misplaced Pages Review where he indicates that Arbcom ought to have included him in the earlier action. "Interesting that I wasn't topic-banned at all, despite having a 24-hour block from Connelly for edit-warring (and calling one of the objectivist editors a 'wakner'). Could there possibly be a political bias here? Arbcom knowing well that I have given the Rand issue a high profile as I could within the profession.". Colonel Warden (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've warned the editor. Vassyana, if you or other editors feel that anybody else is violating the rulings, please name them and cite specific diffs. The best way to get enforcement action is through a concise report naming the case, the sanction, the editors and the diffs. Requests to "look this over" are not particularly helpful on this short-staffed board. ;-) Jehochman 09:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Here are the specifics requested. A template for this might be useful - is there one? Colonel Warden (talk) 10:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- The case is Requests for arbitration/Ayn Rand.
- The sanction is "Editors not specifically named or sanctioned in this case are not excused or exonerated for any inappropriate conduct. Administrators and the community may choose to enact additional topic bans, blocks, site bans, or other sanctions, as necessary to prevent disruption and ensure a productive editing environment."
- The editor is User:Peter Damian.
- The diffs are:
- Block for previous edit warring at this article (to demonstrate history of bad behaviour)
- Whoever removed this is a complete WP:DICK.
- ... cults and cranks and crackpots infesting this project
- This is easily one of the stupidest things you have said. Which is something in itself.
- ...that was clearly a stupid thing to say ... I don't subscribe to this civility thing
- that was a monumentally stupid thing to say — Preceding unsigned comment added by Colonel Warden (talk • contribs) 10:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Stevewunder: (this heading added March 26 by Slp1) Incivility building on past incivility despite support for a reduction in his proposed sanction. --Snowded (talk) 17:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Plain talk is allowed. Peter has not attacked anybody's person. He has called out stupid comments and dickish actions. While his manner of communication is not ideal, we do not sanction people for making blunt comments that are intended to advance the project. Jehochman 20:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Violation of topic ban
User:Stevewunder, despite understanding that he is topic-banned from editing the talkpage of the Ayn Rand article under this remedy (warning, acknowledgment), persists in commenting there. The comments have been affable rather than disruptive for the most part, but in order to retain some respect for the Committee's rulings, perhaps a short holiday from editing might be appropriate. Skomorokh 03:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Had User:Skomorokh not said anything above, I most certainly would have. Stevewunder's comments are now a combination of disruption to make a point (whatever that point may be) and downright disrespect for the ArbCom process. A short holiday from editing would not be inappropriate at this stage. Indeed, enough suggestions, indirect comments and (now) explicit warnings have been issued from multiple editors and admins that we can safely say WP:BITE was followed to the letter before requesting this Administrators' enforcement action. Too bad, really. I was originally sympathetic to his predicament, but not any longer. J Readings (talk) 04:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have blocked Stevewunder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for 1 week for violation of his restrictions aggravated by the disruptive nature of his comments at Talk:Ayn Rand (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs) CIreland (talk) 05:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks CIreland, I appreciate it. Skomorokh 06:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Definition of 'recently edited in relation to Abtract and Alastair Haines
OK, as I am a friend of Alastair I am involved, but thought I would point out this series of edits by Abtract which would appear to be in violation of this ruling, although Alastair last edited on the page a month previous. Anyway, I will leave it for someone impartial to decide. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:44, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- In addition, how about Alastair's edit followed by Abtract's revert four days later. Abtract was blocked two weeks in January by Shell Kinney. It seems that the ruling is being gamed. Alastair came to the article before Abtract, as far as I can tell, reviewing the history back one year. The block will be a month, the maximum allowed by the ruling. Jehochman 10:57, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Looks like this is an edit war from prior to the arbitration ruling:
- 22:23, 22 February 2009 Abtract (remove text that has been disputed for several months)
- 04:04, 18 February 2009 Alastair Haines (restore undisputed text)
- 19:06, 24 January 2009 Abtract (remove disputed ideas with no citation)
- 20:20, 20 December 2008 Casliber (leave a fact tag then - text can be analysed better if present rather than absent - some of it I have read before IIRC)
- 08:23, 19 December 2008 Abtract (remove OR and POV)
- 23:10, 18 December 2008 Alastair Haines (restore description of notability)
- 08:35, 25 November 2008 Abtract (rv renewed attempt to introduce pov which isn't that relevant even were it to be properly cited)
- 02:41, 25 November 2008 Alastair Haines (Undid revision 253440542 by Abtract (talk) please provide sources for alternative views you are aware of ... and add them! :))
- 19:07, 22 November 2008 Abtract (remove para laced with pov)
- 06:56, 2 May 2008 Alastair Haines (multi-ref)
- 00:20, 2 May 2008 Alastair Haines (+chastity)
- A look at the discussion page does appear to indicate that the chastity paragraph was disputed in November and December, and undiscussed since then. So "restore undisputed text" does not seem to be an accurate edit summary. Alastair Haines' edits appear to be contrary to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alastair Haines#Alastair Haines restricted (discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page) and the final sentence of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Alastair Haines#Motion re Abtract (avoid any unnecessary interaction with Abtract). -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree. Looking deeper, I saw that Abtract came to the article only after Alastair was already involved. It seems like Abtract showed up in November, mainly to annoy Alastair. In December, a motion was passed to precisely address that sort of behavior. I would think that Abtract should have taken the point and not continued the harassment of Alastair that was in progress. You say the content was disputed. To me, what Alastair added was a clear definition of terminology, the kind of content that helps provide context and makes an article more readable. Did anybody besides Abtract object to that content? Jehochman 15:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was not arguing against the sanction of Abtract; I've had to block him in the past too. But the arbitration outcome for Alastair Haines' does not mention that content reversions need not be discusses if he's reverting Abtract, or that he is to avoid unnecessary interaction with Abtract unless no other editor is on Abtract's side. And finally, I did see that BananaFiend also objected to the content on 10:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC) (and again later) on the Talk page, which is why I observed that the content was disputed. Alastair Haines should have taken the point and not restarted the edit war (18 December) without discussion right after the motion re Abtract was finished (17 December). -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it does take two editors to make an edit war. Would you warn Alastair about this behavior (since you noticed it), or place whatever sanction you see fit. Jehochman 15:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Blocked 1 week. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it does take two editors to make an edit war. Would you warn Alastair about this behavior (since you noticed it), or place whatever sanction you see fit. Jehochman 15:39, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I was not arguing against the sanction of Abtract; I've had to block him in the past too. But the arbitration outcome for Alastair Haines' does not mention that content reversions need not be discusses if he's reverting Abtract, or that he is to avoid unnecessary interaction with Abtract unless no other editor is on Abtract's side. And finally, I did see that BananaFiend also objected to the content on 10:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC) (and again later) on the Talk page, which is why I observed that the content was disputed. Alastair Haines should have taken the point and not restarted the edit war (18 December) without discussion right after the motion re Abtract was finished (17 December). -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree. Looking deeper, I saw that Abtract came to the article only after Alastair was already involved. It seems like Abtract showed up in November, mainly to annoy Alastair. In December, a motion was passed to precisely address that sort of behavior. I would think that Abtract should have taken the point and not continued the harassment of Alastair that was in progress. You say the content was disputed. To me, what Alastair added was a clear definition of terminology, the kind of content that helps provide context and makes an article more readable. Did anybody besides Abtract object to that content? Jehochman 15:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- A fairly thorough investigation of the overlapping edits prior to the motion being passed was done by myself and Ncmvocalist during the request for clarification, but last time I went looking for it on the talk page (where it should be archived, I think), it appeared to be missing. John Vandenberg 16:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Clerk must have missed it, added at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Alastair_Haines#Motion_re_Abtract. MBisanz 06:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Looks like this is an edit war from prior to the arbitration ruling:
- Comment (first contrib evidence links): according to this page contrib tool Alastair Haines first edited on 2007-10-25 and Abtract first edited about a year later on 2008-11-22 . Same goes for the talk page . R. Baley (talk) 17:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Erm, this block is five weeks after the edit in question - and refers to an editor (Abtract) who has been before arbcom for harassing other editors as well as Alastair - furthermore, the evidence against 'undisputed', namely the editor Bananafiend, made one comment in this section which came across as thoughtful and doubtful rather than opposed (and this is in November 2008), and he has never edited the article. This impresses as very tenuous grounds for a one week block (which I personally feel is unwarranted), but I acknowledge I am not impartial. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Both blocks are roughly the same time-distance from the latest contributions to the edit war, and both contributors are violating the terms of the arbitration. BananaFiend's participation in the discussion IMO has no bearing on either Abtract's or Alastair Haines' part of the slow edit war. Alastair Haines was to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page and avoid any unnecessary interaction with Abtract. Since they've already been through arbitration, and Alastair Haines' last two blocks from that arbitration were both 48hrs, I though 1w was a viable duration for this one. But I'm hardly active in this space (and only discovered it because I watch Abtract's Talk page, from back when I had my own disputes with him), so I'd be happy to get some mentoring from other admins about it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- We certainly need more hands here at AE, especially at some of the more complicated cases. I have state my opinion on the block, but I am unable to be unbiased here, so will ask someone uninvolved (who I thought would have turned up by now). Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, my block was for an edit on March 21 that continued a prior pattern. The diffs I cited from February were an earlier part of that pattern. I think it would be a good idea to offer to unblock Alastair if they agree not to edit war. I offered to unblock Abtract on certain conditions as well. Jehochman 20:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I made the analogous offer. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Both blocks are roughly the same time-distance from the latest contributions to the edit war, and both contributors are violating the terms of the arbitration. BananaFiend's participation in the discussion IMO has no bearing on either Abtract's or Alastair Haines' part of the slow edit war. Alastair Haines was to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page and avoid any unnecessary interaction with Abtract. Since they've already been through arbitration, and Alastair Haines' last two blocks from that arbitration were both 48hrs, I though 1w was a viable duration for this one. But I'm hardly active in this space (and only discovered it because I watch Abtract's Talk page, from back when I had my own disputes with him), so I'd be happy to get some mentoring from other admins about it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Erm, this block is five weeks after the edit in question - and refers to an editor (Abtract) who has been before arbcom for harassing other editors as well as Alastair - furthermore, the evidence against 'undisputed', namely the editor Bananafiend, made one comment in this section which came across as thoughtful and doubtful rather than opposed (and this is in November 2008), and he has never edited the article. This impresses as very tenuous grounds for a one week block (which I personally feel is unwarranted), but I acknowledge I am not impartial. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think we're going to need to have a serious look at Alastair's situation. He has been blocked a number of times since the ruling because he disputes it and continues to do so. Have a look at Alastair's exchange with myself and JHunterJ. What are the ways forward here?--Cailil 18:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't know this discussion was happening; I stumbled upon it when someone made a link to AE from AN - if I knew, I'd have definitely tried to look into this one when it was opened. As an update, Abtract continues to remain blocked for a week, while Alastair Haines original 1 week block has been extended to indef by Fram for 'making legal threats'. As I'm uninvolved but still know the merits of both disputes, I can review this in about 48 hours - I'll understand if that's too long to wait for the original 1 week blocks, but that's all I can offer at this point (sorry). Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Good blocks all around.
- Abtract should've backed off and not continued editing where Alastair Haines was editing. His response here suggests that he will continue to engage in conduct that may be deemed as harassment - one of the reasons Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Abtract-Collectonian was opened (he has attempted to game the non-voluntary restriction that was imposed on him). The block was needed.
- Alastair Haines on the other hand continued to violate his own sanctions. I previously left an "additional comment" (see here) for John (and Casliber) noting that if (1) Alastair did not understand what the problems are, and (2) did not have the willingness/ability to deal with those problems, he would find himself prevented from editing. It seems that it has come to the point where my words have come into effect (again); Alastair failed to give enough regard to the remedy that was imposed wrt Abtract (for Alastair's own benefit), but Alastair also apparently still has issues he needs to deal with when it comes to legal threats - one of the original reasons Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Alastair_Haines was opened. The block, and block extension, were needed.
- As such, I fail to see any reason that warrants lifting these blocks, and consider that this can be marked resolved. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The Original Wildbear
- The Original Wildbear (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The user's page states, Promoting accuracy in information. They have been disrupting Talk:Collapse of the World Trade Center with tendentious, repetitious arguments. It is highly disruptive to repeat the same rejected proposals over and over again. We've seen this pattern many times before. I request that this account be banned from all 9/11 pages under WP:ARB9/11's discretionary sanctions. Thank you. Jehochman 08:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Each single-purpose account that shows up beating the drum for the conspiracy theories should be warned once, and then banned from the 9/11 pages. There's no reason to keep going through this again and again. Tom Harrison 01:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- See for example User:DawnisuponUS. Tom Harrison 02:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment by User:WLRoss
This request appears to be a misuse of WP:ARB9/11. What The Original Wildbears user page states is irrelevant as it is not specific to the subject of the page in dispute and his beliefs should have no bearing on his licence to edit 911 pages without proof of POV pushing.
Wildbear has made a total of two requests in Talk for edits to the article page with another 9 edits explaining his reasoning. The first was a request on March 2 for a "brief explanation of the physics and mathematics" of the tilt of the upper floors before collapse be included in the page if worthwhile and the second was a request on March 17 to modify a section name.
The typical response to his first request (March 2) was that "as no reputable third party has covered it.. likely means it doesn't bear mentioning" and "the alleged tilt" along with accusations of WP:SOAPBOX for making the request. This totally ignores the fact that both Bazant and NIST, the RS used for much of the article, have both covered it. Wildbear made no more posts in this section after March 4 (almost 3 weeks ago). I see no problem with this section not being good faith on Wildbears part.
Wildbears second request (March 17) is problematic ONLY because he quoted a Steven E. Jones website but otherwise was also a good faith edit requesting a grammar fix. Replies dismissing Wildbear in this section ranged all the way from lies to misquoting sources with the only reply addressing the grammar being "It is not a matter of proper grammar" with the comment "Learn what grammar actually is" which is hardly constructive. Wildbear made no more edits in this section after March 18 (6 days ago).
The limited participation of Wildbear in the page, 9 edits over a period of 2 weeks with the last a week ago, contradicts accusations of tendentious and repetitious arguments on his part. If editors had replied to him without accusations and sidetracking in the first place there would have been no issue. Wayne (talk) 16:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- What is repetitious is that a new, single-purpose account appears revisiting all the same arguments as prior tendentious accounts that have been banned. We are not going through the same long process to the same endpoint each time a new account appears. Editors should be warned at most once or twice, and if they persist, they should be banned from 9/11 editing. There are millions of other articles they can edit. This should hardly be a problem. Furthermore, what an editor says on their userpage is directly relevant. We can take their self-declared agenda at face value. Jehochman 16:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would recommend having a list of issues that will not be discussed on the grounds that it would repeat old arguments. That list could then, perhaps, be added to the special sanctions of the 9/11 ArbCom ruling. As an example, the question of whether or not controlled demolition is a "conspiracy theory" could be defined as out of bounds. Or, if I understand Jehochman correctly, it could be considered out of bounds at least for SPAs or new users (just as only registered users can edit some articles at some times). I don't, of course, agree with such a policy, but I think it captures the principle on which I, for example, was topic-banned. As alternative you could identify a few places in the archives of the talk pages that new users could be directed to with a polite "We've talked about this before and decided ." This may not work, however, because most of these users will find some "new" angle that "needs" to be discussed. My preferred option is simply to tolerate the standing discussions as part of the behind-the-scenes activity that maintains the article. Part of the work/fun of editing these articles could be to explain the received view to holders of the increasingly familiar fringe view.--Thomas Basboll (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- On the Barack Obama talk page, they have an expandable FAQ towards the top of the page for this purpose. Of course, people still ask the same questions/raise the same objections over and over again, but it might help reduce them a bit. . A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I used the same solution in Talk:Alexander_the_Great and in Talk:Ejaculation, a "recurrent topics" list with links to the archives. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Firstly we need to clear up a few things that Jehochman had alleged.
- Neither of the two requests The Original Wildbear made as far as I'm aware have been brought up before.
- Wildbear is not a new user having had the account for two years.
- Wildbear is not a single purpose account as he has made only 5 edits to 911 related articles.
- I hardly think Wildbears user page agenda of accuracy and good faith in editing is a negative that should get him banned.
- Not only has he not been warned but has not behaved in a manner that requires a warning.
If there has been "tendentious and repetitious" editing it has been by the editors replying to Wildbear. For some odd reason his behaviour is being held to a much higher, if not impossible, standard than those editors who continually make personal attacks and misquote in support of their own claims to deny his edit requests. WP:ARB9/11 applies to both the editors who believe the official theory and the conspiracy theories equally yet seems to be "applied" ONLY to the later and arbitrarily at that for even good faith edits. This is leading to "ownership" of the article by a clique and discouraging legitimate editors from participating. I would take your lead and suggest that "There are millions of other articles they can edit" but I do not believe in preventing those I disagree with from editing. Wayne (talk) 23:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)