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Iran Unassessed

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Template:Iraq Sheikh mudasserhaleem bein attributed as a Sufi Sheikh is baseless and incorrect. The article is POV and has arguments and statements that have no proof. 68.69.58.146 04:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The Qadiri order of Sufis has him as their Murshid. There are books on Tasawwuf written by him. Why do you say that he is not a Sufi Sheikh? --Nkv 05:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What happens at the tomb of nizamuddin in delhi now does not mean that nizamuddin himself endorsed that. People later on fabricate a lot of stuff, so they take him as murshid means nothing. read abdul qadir jilani's books (fatuhul Ghayb or gunitu-talibeen and like) and you will know what his aqida was. Also, there are incidents in this article without any proof. It deserves a disputed tag 68.233.38.154 11:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it deserves a disputed tag. I don't know of anyone who seriously disputes that he was a Sufi. I can't read his books since I don't have copies nor do I understand the language. Perhaps you could post some links as to why he shouldn't be regarded as a Sufi? Also, perhaps it's a good idea to register a username for yourself? It helps track discussions and archive them. --Nkv 12:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I have read all his books and have some with me. There is one thing for certain, he was not a Wahhabi because he never advocated suicide bombing on fellow muslims just for showing love to their prophet and his house. When Wahhabi uses the word Sufi, they mean someone who worships the grave and then claim that none of the Sufi saint was really a sufi. What a stupid claim. Hassanfarooqi 16:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

you dont know the whole world - not even a small part of it Killbillsbrowser 17:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your ad hominem attacks are not helping at all. All I'm asking for is sources. --Nkv 17:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya Ghaus Al Saqlain!!

He is THE greatest of all Sufi Saints - or the "Saint of Saints" (Pir of Pirs). I don't think anyone can dispute that. His "Foot" is on the Shoulders of all other Sufi's,Auliya's- (No one can be a true auliya/pir who doesn't consider this.). He is a True Friend of Allah(SWT). Only the ignorant and arrogant cannot digest these facts.

Descendant speaks out

He was my great X grandfather. He being labeled as a Sufi isnt right. HE was muslim and never called himself as anything else. He lived his life as much as he could as the prophet lived his life. He didnt create no biddath (new false laws) and he never went to someones tomb.

Another Jilani Descendant Speaks out

You are right my brother! Sheikh Jilani never called people to worship shrines or graves of other pious people. He was a strict Hanbali and he never intended to form a sufi order. Those who came after him made him god-like figure and called him all kind of names that fit only God, such as "Gouth al-thaqalain" (the helper of humans and jins). Also, they say about him, "Abdul Qadir al-Jilani mutasarrif bi-lakawni" (i.e. A. Q. Jilani is in control of the universes!). Such saying are absolute kufr, al-Jilani had never attributed these things to himself! Bring your proofs if you are truthful!

The Nejdi Factor

Those who dispute that the Sheikh was a Sufi are a new minority sect in Islam financed by Saudi Arabian Royal family. They consider Sufism against Islam because it teaches non-violence and peace. They beleive in spreading their version of Islam thru sword and call themselves Salafies but are commonly known as Wahhabies or Nejdies (after Ibn Abdul Wahhab of Nejd). There are now two sects within this sect. One is follows the King and call itself Athari Salafi. The second follows Osama bin Ladin and is called Takfiri Salafi. Both the groups are violent in beleif and the whole world saw what they did on 9/11

Fake descendants

Having the last name of Jilani does not make someone a descendant of the Shaikh. It just signifies that someone's ancestor has come from Jilan, or someone was a descendant of someone named Jilani. Maybe someone became a Muslim on the hand of Jilani. There are lots of Jilanies who are Shias and dead against the Shaikh. After the 1947 partition, many people changed their family name during the crossing. Even someone is a descendant of Shaikh, he can be a convert to Wahhabism. I have seen some Jilani converts to Christianity.Hassanfarooqi 16:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that both 'descendants' don't even know what a Sufi is, and just base their opinions on Wahhabi garbage that gets posted on the internet. A true Sufi is opposed to bidah just as much as any other Muslim, but Salafi blood-libel has blinded many people.

EDIT: It's also pretty clear that the 'Nejd Factor' guy doesn't know that much about Wahhabis either. Terrorism is not the goal or purpose of the Wahhabi sect, that's just what westerners think. It's more of a Protestant reform movement very similar in some ways to the one in Christianity. The terrorism is likely caused by the lack of emphasis Wahhabis place on religious authority and the revolutionary nature of the sect. Despite what it looks like now, Wahhabism is likely to become a much more liberal sect in the future, in the same way as modern-day Protestant Christians are nothing like their violent Puritan predecessors. 91.107.198.58 (talk) 21:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Silly discussions

I find some of the discussions on here a little amusing - anonymous users with poor language skills claiming to be his descendants don't count as references. However, there are issues with the article. It's written from an extremely positive point of view, when it should just be neutral. Stories such as the man having a dream about Muhammad don't add anything to the article either; this is an informative biography about a historical religious figure, not his blog. In addition, there is an amount of controversy and criticism over his works and his followers and the article doesn't mention that. All articles on prominent figures, especially in the realm of organized religion, should include sections for opposing views. Despite the whining of some anonymous users - and i'm not trying to be rude, but most of what I see on this discussion page is whining - the article could use a tune-up. MezzoMezzo 21:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Persian Empire could never include Gilan. He was always referred as GILANI, neither Persian nor Iranian. Iranian government occupied Gilan almost 500 years after his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.74.47 (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Bad use of References

References posted one of them states a personal opinion of the author and should not be admitted, and I quote: "Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics: Volume 1. A - Art. Part 1. A - Algonquins By James Hastings, John A Selbie Published by Adamant Media Corporation, 2001. pg 10:"and he was probably of Persian origin"--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 12:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Claims of Origin

Many claim Abdulqadir Gilani to be of Persian origin, If so, why, I ask, isn't there one original manuscript by him in any museum or library public or private that has been written in the Persian language, instead we find them in the Arabic language only! Arab, Persian and Turkish cultures have the tradition of giving a nickname or second name in addition to the original name which can be a composite name as well, His complete name reads (Muhyi ad-Din, Abd al-Qadir) son of (Abu Salih, Musa, Jenki-Dost or Jangi-Dost) son of(Abdullah, al-Jili)...etc. His nickname (Muhyi ad-Din)(Template:Lang-en),(Template:Lang-ar)comes before his original first name (Abd Al-Qadir). His father's nickname Jangi-Dost is a Persian name, having lived his life and died in Gilan,it means(Template:Lang-en),(Template:Lang-ar). His grandfather was the first of the blood line to be given the nickname (Al-Jili), (Template:Lang-ar),(Template:Lang-en).The misunderstanding of this name format, the overlap of cultures in the area, along with the lack of accurate translation of the original Arabic scriptures, causes the inaccurate conclusions by foreign scholars and even local scholars who rely on the translated material as it is. If the origin of a person is determined by his name only (in this case nickname) disregarding all other facts, then I tell you dear readers, that most of the modern world is ruled by Arabs, including the United states of America, Iran and most of the far east, and Lebanon is populated by French people, and so on and so fourth. I will fortify my argument with references both Arabic (translated if possible) and English in the days to come, I ask anyone with access to such books to help me with this task, as they are hard to get in my part of the world. meanwhile I ask you to fairly reconsider some of the information posted on the page in question.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:OR,WP:RS and WP:Synthesis. There are also indications that Jangi-i-doost was not a nickname but the actual name of his grandfather. There other things like Abdul Qadir Gilani being called 'ajam in different manuscripts. Also if there are any authentic Arab writings ascribed to him, it is because Arabic was the main language of religion. Look at Hallaj who had Zoroastrian ancestry but wrote in Arabic. But in terms of wikipedia what counts is WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:verifiability and WP:synthesis.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 15:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Having such geneologies madeup for Sufi saints are not uncommon. For example Hajji Bektash Wali was made into a Seyyed, same with Shaykh Safi al-Din Ardabili who probably was not a Seyyed, same with Jilani and etc. In general actually, sometimes it is possible the title Seyyed was conferred on a person of high spiritual rank, just like the Prophet of Islam claimed that Salman is part of his Ahlul Bayt (Household). More plausible obviously is that Jangidoost was a simple Zoroastrian and his son converted to Islam. All the early references to being an 'ajam (not arab) about Jilani proves the point. By the way "Seyyeds" in Iran (which Jilani is not one) are assimilated to the local culture and it is culture, not ancestry that is the key mark of identity. For example, the last Shah of Iran had a mother who was Seyyed. Or Ayatollah Khamenei is a Seyyed but no one considers these Arabs. On the case of Jilani though, many scholars have now said he was not a Persian Seyyed.---Nepaheshgar (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The title "sayed" is not a spiritual title, the meaning of the name in Arabic is Master, it was given, along with sharif which means pure in ancestry to desendants of Ali bin Abi Talib from his wife Fatima Al-Zahra to distingwish them from the rest of Quraish (the general tribe that ruled Mekka, and wer considered the masters or the most powerful tribe in Arabia), so to be a Sayed, is exclusif to Arabs from that specific bloodline. The title given to a woman from that bloodline is "Elwiah" (علوية), which indicates the belonging to the house of Ali bin Abi-Talib.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As of Gilan being of specific nationality or belonging to a certain race at that time, it belong to the Abasid Islamic Khilafa that streched from China, to the Atlantic Ocean, that does not make Afghanistan for example an Arab state, nor does it make every body residing in this wide spread country Muslim.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As the for the indication of the true name, you have to be knowlagable of Arabic language, to better choose sourses that are logical and neutral in their statments. Having seen the original geneology document, (the family tree) written (first hand), I think I can modestly and with no disrespct, say that I know about the subject better than an Encyclopedia written by some historian in Oxford who never set foot in the Middle East in general, in Iraq in particular, writing about a culture and a religion that he is a foreigner from, although his name indicates a christian middle eastern origen. You don't see Chinese historians quoting Arab authors writng encyclopedias about their historic figures !, because it just might be inaccurate.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The geneology was undisputed for the last 400 years, and was recognized especialy by the Ottoman Emipe as an official authoroty, and Muslim clericks from diferent sects as the public opinion,a fact from which reulted the statement of the desendants of that blood line as Head syndicate of the Ashraf (Sayeds)(Nakeeb Ashraf)(نقيب اشراف).--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The fact that many Sufi Sheikhs claimed to be Ashraf is true, the example you mentioned (Hajji Bektash) is relativly reasant,as most of the claims regardless of authanticity. Abdulqadir Gilani was one of the founders (about 800 years ago) of the Sufi order, that was recognized as an order long after his death, but was baised on alot of his teachings that was spread by his student therefor credited to him. At the time of his life, and he lived at the capital Baghdad since age 18, it was almost considered treason to have claimed that title (sayed or sharif) because of the fear of the Abasid rulers of claimes of true Khilafa to a desendant of Ali Bin Abi-Talib, so fals claims at that time would have been foolish and suicidal.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The word "Ajami" as you mentioned indicates being from Iran in general in modern day Arab countries, but the word itself that was used in The Quran also meens "foreign, or foreigner", it was labled specificly to Persian people because Arabs had three main forein cultures that they wer exposed to, Persia, Rome, and Abyssinia (modern day Ethiopia), therfore (A'ajami, Rumy, Habashi)respectivly, and he was foreign to Baghdad due to the fact that he was born in gilan, arriving at the mature age of 18,not having family or freinds in baghdad, he was considered an A'ajami foreiner.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The fact that I don't have access to the sources of my research saddens me greatly, and I agree with the respecter Nepaheshgar about the providing of sources, therefore any personal thought although published, should be removed unless it is of no consiquense to the historic value and aithenticity of the artcle, for example explaining modern day tradition in certain places that is of relavence to the person, place or historic event the artcle is written about, that kind of input is subject to discution and aproval of the editors as well as readers. The fact that the sources are written in Arabic should not be a reason of dismissal, and I will try to find accurate translated versions if possible, if not, I'll quote the source in the Arabic text followed by the english translation, so it woul be easy for those interested to check up simply by using a dictionary. I will provide them as soon as possible, and I ask for the highly regarded readers and editors to aid in this task if possible.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 09:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear friend. Please read this: . We cannot selectively quote primary sources(Arabic) in articles unless accompanied by researchers who have been reliably published in the area. That is it violates WP:OR. Misplaced Pages articles are written based on secondary sources as stated in WP:RS (specific section I mentioned). There are Arabic sources that make him an 'ajam, for example they have called him 'ajam, and said he spent time in a tower which was later called tower of 'ajam..actually I think there is a whole thesis on this issue. But I should add, that even if he was a Seyyed (which sources doubt), he is still an Iranian/Persian Seyyed and for example one does not consider Ayatollah Khamenei or Sistani an Arab just because he is a Seyyed.--Nepaheshgar (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear friends, Abdul Qadir Gilani was a Muslim Historical figure, if you are seeking knowledge, than his origin should not be an issue, but for the sake of truth and non other I have pursued this matter, as it is a page about the person himself in particular with a general referral to his heritage.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

If there is such a story about the tower please state the source, if not you should remove it as you have mentioned above,(Synthesis of published material that advances a position) and the quote that has been stated "probably is...etc" is not reliable, even if it was from an Encyclopedia. As of the name ajam, I have explained with details what it meant, and you can verify it with aid of an Arabic - English dictionary , if you are not satisfied, an Arabic -Arabic dictionary will give you more details.

If there is a thesis about it, please state the name author and where was it published.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The respectable Ayatullah Khamenei, and the respectable Ayatullah Sistani especially, as he wares a black turban and with the name sayed must be of this specific bloodline, the black turban distinguishes the Sayed cleric from the other clerics, the black color of the turban is from the turban of the prophet Mohammad(P)that he used to ware in some special occasions.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I have given the advice of using a dictionary, and I took my own advise in checking out the name genki dost, surprisingly, it turns out that the meaning is: world or universe (jenki) friendly (dost), (every body's friend), if I'm not mistaken, that discredits the tower story, correct me if I'm wrong, with sources.--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I will provide a reliable source as mentioned above shortly--A.H.Gaylani (talk) 11:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The tower is sourced. Ayatollah Sistani/Khamenei and etc. are not Arabs because culturally they are Iranian. Jangi-Dost means battle-lover. Universe is Jahan. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

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