Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:10, 13 April 2009

Germany B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Archives

Early undated discussion (probably before 2004-03-23) 2004 2005 Jan-Apr 2006 May 2006 May-June 2006 June-August 2006 August-October 2006 October 2006-January 2007 January 2007-March 2007 March 2007–November 2007 December 2007–May 2008 June 2008–December 2008 January 2009-March 2009

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus Aervanath (talk) 17:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Expulsion of Germans after World War II → Flight and expulsion of Germans —

• Add "Flight": Although those who fled were expelled "in absentia" or upon returning, this was not foreseeable for the refugees, thus the flight/evacuations before the start of the actual expulsions which is covered in the article should be mentioned in the title as well. To seperately include "evacuation" in the title seems redundant as evacuation was no more than an (badly) organized flight which often enough turned into a spontaneous one.
• Remove WWII qualification: (1) "after WWII" is misleading, flight as well as actual expulsion started already during the war. (2) The WWII-related flight and expulsion was the only major flight and expulsion of Germans ever. Though there were other events when Germans fled or were expelled, the late and post-WWII events are those usually associated with the terms. Per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision)'s rationale, we should have a title precise enough to identify the topic, but avoid unnecessary qualifications. Per Misplaced Pages:Dab#Is there a primary topic? other events could be dab-ed above the lead. — Skäpperöd (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Support (nominator) Skäpperöd (talk) 15:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I gave it some thought today, but as I mentioned in the discussion above, I not convinced a rename is necessary. In respect of the addition of the word "flight", populations all over the world fled from advancing armies during WWII - what is notable here about the flight of the Germans is that it was rendered permanent by the later expulsions - the focus of this article. Adding words such as flight or evacuation is unnecessary. As for the reference to WWII, I think the words "after World War II" are necessary and don't represent "over precision". The proposed title is way too ambiguous - it's not enough to say that the subject of the article represents the only major population transfers of Germans, because it isn't even clear from the proposed title that it deals with population transfers. This is actually the sort of ambiguity that WP:PRECISION suggests we avoid. Since this is not a DAB problem, WP:PRIMARYUSAGE isn't really relevant, nor are hatnotes the solution.--Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. I don't have strong feelings on this issue. At the moment, like Skeezix1000 I don't see a need for a move and I also think that the qualifier "after WWII" is useful though not 100% accurate. If there's some strong arguments I'm perfectly willing to change my mind.radek (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Support proposition 1 to add 'flight'; it is well documented that a tide of refugees preceded the Soviet advance westwards in 1944 and 1945, motivated by fear, of communism and also of reprisals. This amounts to flight, not expulsion or ethnic cleansing as was seen, for example, in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Let's be clear: there were many people who definitely fled, and expressed no desire to return; an 'expulsion' is not simply 'being denied the right to return to an area from which you have fled'. An expulsion is where either a) people bang on your door in the morning telling you that you'd better be on the road by midday or else; or b) populations get forcibly transferred by some kind of (quasi-)legal procedure. Undoubtedly there were also expulsions after the war, but this article does not solely describe an 'expulsion' when so many left in advance of those they feared (for whatever reason). Cautious oppose to proposition 2 to delete totally a time frame - I think the article needs a time reference in its title. I agree that 'after World War II' is factually incorrect, but I think some form of wording should replace it. Perhaps "Flight and expulsion of Germans 1944-50" would do, as that seems to be the period in question? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Would not object to qualify with a date. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - The self-imposed evacuations are already covered by Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II, and to a lesser extent German exodus from Eastern Europe and Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II. This article should deal solely with the forced expulsions. The date qualifier is quite necessary; the proposed title is far too ambiguous. Parsecboy (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The article has been moved several times. Wouldn't a summary of such moves be useful? Xx236 (talk) 15:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Various German Civilian “Relocation” Statistics from Eastern Europe in Mid & Latter 1940s

High side figures: 12 to 16 million German civilians affected

Regarding Poland, German civilians were expelled by Soviet/Polish Communist authorities from the area within the 1937 borders of Germany east of the Oder-Neisse Line, with the exception of northern East Prussia, which was subject only to repopulation by Soviet citizens as the original German population was expelled. Also regarding Poland, all ethnic Germans living within the Polish 1937 boundaries in the places redefined by the Nazis as the Wartheland; Westpreussen; Sued-Ostpreussen; Kreis Suwalki (Sudauen); & Bezirk Bialystok were subject to expulsion, regardless of whether the ethnic German civilians had lived in those areas in 1937, or had been transferred in by the Nazis after September, 1939.

Regarding events in Poland, some sources claim 2 million ethnic German Civilian deaths, including deaths during the “run away” time (in areas that were (1) within 1937 German boundaries, and (2) in areas within 1937 Polish boundaries); deaths directly caused by enemy action; and, deaths during forced expulsions. (Note: the “run away time” is loosely defined as German civilians fleeing the approaching Soviet Army during the war.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 21:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yep, let's do our best to make Misplaced Pages the home page of the lunatic fringe who a) don't even have the decency to sign up b) don't bring any sources c) don't have the slightest interest in atrocities committed by, under or during the 3rd Reich d) probably have a personal Nazi memorabilia museum/drawer at home. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is much vandalism at times, but most is caught within a short time by the editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The Allied Crimes against the Germans

"It is the TRUTH that sets us free.. It is Propaganda that enslaves us..

Name: Peter data: 2008-08-01 12:25:41 email: itspete99@aol.com

REVISED ENTRY

Hello everyone! World War II was not a 'Good' war, as they want us to believe. It was a Bad war like ALL wars!

How Three Million Germans Died AFTER the War was Over

Why the Germans were ALSO Victims of World War II

Perhaps Americans could better understand the feelings of millions of German expellees if they could imagine the US losing a war and the victors arbitrarily awarding my home state California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and the great state of Texas to Mexico. If the truth be known, Mexico had a much more valid claim to these states than Poland ever did to Eastern Germany. Our friends the Brits could better understand if they would allow themselves to imagine the loss of one quarter of their present territory. One last thought; the German expellees from the very first days formally renounced violence and revenge when it came to reclaiming their homes and property. If they had not done this, can you imagine what the situation might be even now. Like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, they very might very well might be daily acts of violence between the German expellees and the Poles. Instead, the German expellees have remained peaceful, but never the less, well aware of the great injustice that was done to them. Someone has said, 'The greatest loss there is, is the loss of one's home.' "

Dear Friends, If you find the above interesting, I would be grateful if you could do some research about the 'Flight and Expulsion.' Ask your German friends and aquaintances if they are from the 'lost lands' in the East. Ask them about their experiences at the end of the War. You will be amazed and perhaps shocked by what they went through. There are some informative videos on www.youtube.de (and com) showing the explusion and atrocities against the Germans.

Sincere best wishes to you all, Peter-- Brenton359 (talk) 03:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Peter... the problem is that the Germans started this terrible war and they were the perpetrators not the victims. Ordinary Germans at the time were the perpetrators of the Holocaust. They were Hitler's willing executioners and had judged that the mass annihilation of Jews and mass murder of Poles was right. German civilian suffering at the end of the war was huge but blaming the victims for their suffering as you do above (Poles, Czechs ..) is not going to win you much sympathy, sorry...--Jacurek (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

one more thing, your comment contains many OBVIOUS historical inaccuracies. I don't want to go into details, maybe somebody else will.--Jacurek (talk) 06:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

re "Ordinary Germans at the time were the perpetrators of the Holocaust. They were Hitler's willing executioners ..." :This is an expansive statement which doesn't present much of a context, but implies a link to Goldhagen's book, "Hitler's Willing Executioners". The Wilipedia article on "Hitler's Willing Executioners" has a section titled, "Critical Reception of Work":

http://en.wikipedia.org/Hitler's_Willing_Executioners ANNRC (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, these kinds of rants, reposted from Facebook (!!!) do not belong on the talk page anymore than they do in the article. Misplaced Pages is not a version of free bloging software. And that's even ignoring the extremist nature of these posts. This should be just deleted.radek (talk) 07:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

@Brenton: It is not really helpful to copypaste blogs / oppinions of someone. WP:NOTAFORUM. It would be much more helpful if you precisely adressed the issues which in your view are missing / ought to be included into the article, and reasonably back that up per WP:V. How exactly do you want to expand/alter which sections/paragraphs? Sidenote: It was not a "German holocaust". The term holocaust should only be applied to the industrialized extermination of the European Jews, which has no cognate whatsoever in history. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

@Jacurek: (now a little violating WP:NOTAFORUM myself...) You fully apply the principle of collective guilt. "The Germans" were perpetrators, "the Poles" were victims. Be aware that this is a strong personal view of yours and just imagine what would happen if you applied this on issues other than the expulsion of Germans. I am glad that I do not live in a country where the wrongdoings of a clanmember of mine enable the member of another clan to cut off my hands. And I think the law system you are subject to also follows the principle of individual guilt, qualified with "innocent until proven guilty", and that someone even if found guilty of one crime is not civilly dead meaning everyone is free to commit whatever crime they want on them. You would do good stepping back and thinking of the merits of this approach, which is common law and moral standard in all the "first" world. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Skäpperöd... this is not only my view and no, I do not apply a principle of collective guilt and I acknowledge that the German civilians suffered terribly after the war. They suffered however ONLY because of the insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders THEY ELECTED and the war Germany started. Now....Let me ask you a question... What would have happen to the Poles or to the rest of the barely surviving Jews if Hitler have won the war?? I'm sure I would not be able to talk to you right now because I would not exist. Well...Hitler lost and as a result the German population suffered, but I and you, assuming you are German, are able to talk to each other.....and this is the difference.--Jacurek (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Consequence of the war Germany started: Absolutely correct. But not the necessary or only possible one.
• "ONLY because of the insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders": This however is very speculative. The motor of the expulsions were Stalin and his (international) crew. As outlined in the article, punishment for Nazi crimes were one argument, though not really the argument of those who planned the expulsions, but rather of some of those who pursued them. When the truncation of Germany and the expulsions were planned however, rarely anyone knew what the Nazis really did in Central and Eastern Europe. But Stalin and Churchill knew what they wanted, and did not hesitate.
• "insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders THEY ELECTED": The Nazis did not get 100% of the votes, and the Nazis were elected eleven years earlier when only very few could foresee what they were up to. I cannot go into detail here regarding the political, economic and social situation in Weimar Germany that led to the Nazi victory. But the majority of the votes the Nazis got not for their extermination plans, which took shape only later.
• "What would have happen to the Poles or to the rest of the barely surviving Jews if Hitler have won the war?" This is already the right question, but the wrong implementation. Yes, the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Poles and the Jews. Yes, that was evil. No, that does not mean that if the Nazis judge others solely based on racial criteria, that we do so too in respect to the Germans.

You said you don't apply the collective guilt principle, but in the same post you did again. "They" - the Germans. We are able to talk to each other because those who committed murder during and after the war, based solely on ethnic reasons, spared our (grand-)parents. This should prevent us from judging others based on their ethnicity, don't you think? Skäpperöd (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I used the term "they the Germans" to underline the "fact" and not to blame the whole Germans for it. I partly agree with you that there was more to it and there was another "evil idiot" in the East, Stalin, but facts are as they are. Germany started the war, they were the initiators of this conflict which led to the enormous suffering and destruction unseen in Europe until then. Now...who is there to blame for the eventual German suffering after the war, in most cases of innocent civilians, Wolf kids, raped woman and helplessness? "Three stooges" in Yalta, Teheran and Potsdam and their idiotic decisions to please Stalin? The Soviet Army? Poles and Czechs? Jews? ... or perhaps the Germans themselves? The German suffering after the war is indisputable but blaming the Poles as Peter did or even better, Polish Jews, who are also Poles, is simply disgusting...--Jacurek (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all let me assure you that we are not that far away in our views. If you'd replace "the Germans" and "the Poles" with "Germany" and "Poland", we would not have a big argument. Of course (Nazi) "Germany" and "Poland" are virtual bodies, maintained and able to act only via physical Germans and Poles, but not the Germans and the Poles. If Poland had tried/detained/expelled only those Germans who had actually ordered/supervised/committed atrocities, even if broadly defined and if executed with a "fair" amount of "collateral damage", the retrospect debate would be much different. But the expulsions/murders/atrocities were to a large degree indifferent to individual guilt and based on ethnicity only. They were not even limited to members of NS-organizations, and even those were not all guilty/supportive/aware of the Nazi crimes. In fact, the actual perpetrators were for the most part absent, like most adult males, when the flight and expulsion took place.

Both Polish governments, the exiled and the Communist ones, wanted German territory and they wanted the new Poland to be ethnically cleansed of Germans. The Polish vote in 1946 explicitly asked the Oder-Neisse question, and although this vote was held under somewhat dubious circumstances and the presented outcome cannot be taken for granted, it is undisputed that a significant proportion of the Polish populace supported the westward expansion and the ethnic cleansing evidently tied to it. It is also undisputed that it was not just Gomulka who cleansed, just like it was not only Hitler who engaged in mass murder and ethnic cleansing before, but that the orders of Gomulka and Co were willingly executed by other Poles, and that there were Poles who in this respect did not just do their "duty", but a lot more to Germans they encountered or detained in their camps and cellars. This is the undeniable Polish responsibility. But this does not mean that the Poles were responsible and/or guilty. It means that distinct Poles were perpetrators in this respect, and it does not mean that these Poles could not have been victims in another respect. In fact, all Poles were at least potentially victims of Nazi crimes, even those who were dubbed "racial Germans" by the respective SS bureaus, and many were not only potential but actual victims in this respect. That however does not make them victims in every respect.

Now what has all this to do with the article. I feel many editors dropped in here motivated by a desire to settle national scores, i.e. compare/equal one set of crimes with another and assign some sorts of ethnic guilt. This is not acceptable.

• We must present data and not own conclusions, phrase everything carefully without weaseling and without an underlying personal interpretation.
• We must carefully avoid generalization, especially by wordings such as "the Germans" and "the Poles" in cases where not all Germans or all Poles or whatever nationals were involved. Instead we have to properly attribute who said and did what exactly to whom exactly.
• We must show the ties the expulsions have with the preceding war including the Nazi crimes, but we must limit this to where these ties actually are. The place for the preceding Nazi crimes is the "punishment" section, which should focus on elaborating on the ties, i.e. published ties and not felt ties. WWII events and Nazi crimes have numerous own articles and should be mentioned and linked instead of getting boosted to make a point; expellee=German=Nazi=guilty=civilly dead is a prime example for a synthesis.

Skäpperöd (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Such comparisions as abover are not really appropriate as huge differences are in two situations which need to be pointed out

• -German removal was all there was to the action/The removal of Poles and Jews was part of far wider program of extermination which the Germans were not target of
• -The Poles and Jews were targetted as creatures on lower scale to be exterminated by German state with appropriate legislation included/the Germans were to be moved to new German homeland in order to prevent violence.
• -the German state during the war was based on ideology of racial genocide seeking to mass murder others as motive for its existance, no possibility of co-existance with Poles or Jews was possible or relations with Polish state/countries removing Germans had nothing against German state’s existance is some shape, and pursued relations either with West Germany or East Germany
• -the exact stated reason for removing the Germans was among others the persistant nationalist orientation of tho Germans in eastern territories, in part due to frontier nature of them. The area politically speaking has always been the primary nationalist region, dating back even to German Empire. They are many factors in this too detailed to describe, but for example nationalist organizations were awarded money and membership was finanacially rewarded by German state. The removal was seen as defence against German agression. On the other hand removing of Poles and Jews was quite openly justified by racist goals of German state during the war and quite openly described by German officials as agressive(which was in line with Nazi ideology of constant warfare)
• -comparing Gomulka to Hitler ? That’s really uncalled for. You have a ideologist activist for workers who became authoritiarian ruler and used state police against dissent to man who openly called for world war and exterminated tens of milions of people in the name of racial genocide while destroying Central Europe and creating a totalitarian state.
• -the territorial aspect is of course yet another matter-Germans were removed from border regions that were Germanised in the course of centuries from the native inhabitants. Poles were being removed from core Polish areas such as Poznań where the first Polish state was established or even areas with no previous German presence such as Zamojszczyzna. Again this shows that the extent and scope of German actions was different.
• -The expulsion and extermination of Poles and Jews had background in expansionism of former German Empire’s attempts to win control over Central Europe(see Polish Border Strip Plan), of course Nazis greatly changed the former plans changing their scope and methods/the removal of Germans had background in the populations seeking the removal being subject to German made mass murder and racist policists and hoping to end this ordeal or any possibility of its return
• -finally legal matters-German law in Third Reich included such legal conditions as higher status of househeld animals then Poles and Jews, I don’t think this was common in the international or any law at the time and now and things like injecting children of subhumans with poison don’t have any legal basis/The re-settlement of Germans to Germany had basis in already existing events such as population exchange of Greece and Turkey for example
• -as to resistance, sadly the available research shows that real resistance was a very tiny majority, we have to remember that around 51% of Germans voted for NSDAP and their political allies DNVP in elections. Even the most widespread resistance symbolised by Stauffenberg was influenced by fascism and nationalist ideas(for example while Stauffenberg did not want to exterminate Poles, he was quite in agreement that they are to be enslaved). True democratic resistance while it existed was very rare. Additionally the areas from which Germans were resettled were as mentioned before the centre of German nationalism.

As to support for extermination-it was very high above 30% after the war according to available Allied data, needless to say we can expect it to be higher in the effect nationalist regions just as the votes for Nazis were higher.

• To sum up-even a brief comparision between treatment of non-Germans by Nazi Germany and post-war treatment of Germans shows that the two are light years away and can’t be considered similiar. Where German state during Second World War engaged in industrial genocide aiming at extermination of whole nations, based on its core ideology of the time, the post-war resettlement of Germans was a population transfer based on previous similiar processes that were legal by current international law.

However I might mention that the intentional or unintentional attempts to compare the two have actually been noted by historic community. Of interest is the remark that such process sometimes goes into trying to show everybody during WW2 as guilty in the same way, and by doing so erases all guilt in the line of “If everybody is guilty, then nobody is guilty at all”. Perhaps this would be good to add in post war events, of course referenced by scholary works which observe and study the issue. --Molobo (talk) 13:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC) Comment to Peter: I served in the US Army in West Germany (1962-64, Gelnhausen).

1. I don't believe the bombing of civilians during war time is legally a war crime. 2. US President Roosevelt, Brit PM Churchill & Sov Premier Stalin approved what eventually became (via the Potsdam Agreement)an open-ended population transfer of all ethnic Germans from East of the Oder-Neisse Line. Roosevelt was dead and Churchill was no longer PM by the time of the finalization of the Potsdam Agreement. Per the Potsdam Agreement, theoretically all ethnic Germans were to be relocated to the West of the Potsdam Agreement determined Oder-Neisse Line (Stettin notwithstanding). The approved population transfers also covered all ethnic Germans to be transferred to Occupation Germany from Czechoslovakia and Hungary. 30 years later the Helsinki Accords (1975) made such ethnic cleansing against Human Rights, although it wasn't made retroactive to 1945. 3. The Nazis were well on their way to destroying Polish culture (which was one of their ultimate goals). Ca. 5.5 million Polish civilians were killed by the Nazis during the war (that figure includes 3 million Polish Jews). All of 1937 boundary Poland was intended to be ethnically cleansed (i.e., of all ethnic Poles and Jews) by the Nazis. 4. The policy in the US Occupation Zone of Germany between 1945 & 1947 had the effect of starving to death hundreds of thousands of Germans. The US State Department would not even let the Vatican send in supplies to starving German infants in the US Zone. 5. Most of West Prussia was assigned to Poland in 1919 following World War 1. ANNRC (talk) 10:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear ANNRC - the article by Professor Alfred de Zayas "Forced Population Transfer" in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Public International Law (online since September 2008) explains why the expulsions were incompatible with international law in 1945. De Zayas analysed this issue at length in his seminal article "International Law and Mass Population Transfers" (Harvard International Law Journal, Vol. 16, 1975) and in his book "Nemesis at Potsdam" (1-3 editions Routledge, 4-5 edition University of Nebraska Press, 6th edition Picton Press, Rockland, Maine ISBN-0-89725-360-4). The bottom line is that the Allies were not above international law, but had to abide themselves by it. The Allies broke general principles of law and numerous articles of the Hague Regulations on Land Warfare (notably articles 42-56) when they displaced the German civilian population from the areas where their ancestors had lived for 7 centuries. It is interesting to note that there was no "causal nexus" between Nazi crimes and the expulsion of the German civilian populations. The Nazis committed plenty of crimes in occupied France, Belgium, the Netherlands, but the French, Belgians and Dutch did not expell the Germans of Cologne and Düsseldorf to the East, whereas the Poles and Czechs did expel the Germans of East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, East Brandenburg, Sudetenland etc. to the West. This "forced migration" affected 15 million human beings, two million of whom perished (Statistisches Bundesamt, Wiesbaden, 1958, "Die Deutschen Vertreibungsverluse"; Gerhard Reichling, "Deutsche Vertriebenen in Zahlen", 1985). Churchill himself referred to the expulsions as "tragedy on a prodigious scale". Bertrand Russell called it a crime against humanity, as did several US Senators and Congressmen. The socialist British publisher and philosopher Victor Gollancz condemned the expulsions in his books "Our Threatened Values" (London 1946, Left Book Club) and "In Darkest Germans" (1947). Churchill and Roosevelt bear responsibility because they "accepted" the principle of forced population transfer which originated with exiled Czech President Eduard Benes. There is no doubt that the expulsion of the Germans was many times worse -- and more costly in human lives -- than the "ethnic cleansing" we all abhor in the former Yugoslavia. As de Zayas elucidates in chapters 5 and 6 of Nemesis at Potsdam, the Western Allies did not want to have the Germans epelled -- this was, indeed, against their own interests as occupying powers, because, as Churchill aptly said, the millions of expelled Germans "brought their mouths" with them. Great Britain and the U.S. as occupying powers needed the Eastern German Provinces (which used to be Germany's bread basket) for food production. And the millions of German refugees from those provinces would need food and shelter in the West -- this could only come from the US breadbasket in the great plains of Nebraska. Indeed, the occupation of Germany cost the U.S. and Britain many millions of dollars. It is interesting to read in Chapter 5 of Nemesis at Potsdam that the drafter of article 13 of the Potsdam Protocol, Sir Geoffrey Harrison, and his American colleage Cavendish Cannon made it very clearly to the Soviets that they were against the expulsions -- but that since a situation had emerged in Eastern Europe whereby the Poles and Czechs were expelling the Germans in a cruel and disorderly manner, this should be supervised by the Allied Control Council and channeled into "orderly and humane" transfers. Article 13 was not a "blank check" to the Poles and Czechs -- on the contrary. It was, of course, ignored in Warsaw, Prague and Moscow -- as we know from General Eisenhower's and Robert Murphy's telegrams to the State Department in October 1945. Robert Murphy, by the way, wrote the preface to Nemesis at Potsdam, which has become a "standard" in Germany, having reached 14 editions, the last one "Die Nemesis von Potsdam" in a completely revised and enlarged version with Herbig Verlag, Münich. ISBN 3- 7766- 2454-K --Immerhinque (talk) 06:30, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

(1) One account has it that the U.S. adopted the idea of debellatio (subjugation) in order to suspend The Hague Regulations in Germany by requiring unconditional surrender. In that specific context, population transfers (in 1945) did not fall within the specific context of the Hague Regulations. Roosevelt announced the concept of unconditional surrender at the Anglo-American summit meeting at Casablanca in January, 1943. That was well before the Tehran Conference in the latter part of 1943.

(2) Article 13 of the Potsdam Agreement put no limts on the amount of subject ethnic Germans to be expelled. Therefore, 100% was an operative concept. So, the US & British signatures on the Potsdam Agreement accepted in effect the expulsion of 100% of ethnic Germans from east of the Oder-Neisse Line into Occupation Germany, which was West of the Oder-Neisse Line. Some bureaucracy was involved, but that didn't change the significance of the US & British sign-off on the Potsdam Agreement: some lip service was given to the Allied Control Council (ACC) determining the numbers of Germans to be "resettled". But, nothing was done when the ACC thus met, since it had no teeth unless the Soviet ACC representation agreed, for example, on any proposal brought up in ACC meetings (For general ACC information, see Allied Control Council). The Soviet ACC representation never accepted anything less than the possibility of 100% German ethnic expulsion from east of the Oder-Neisse Line into Occupation Germany i.e., west of the Oder-Neisse Line. So, the ACC (which comprised US, UK, & USSR representation) accepted the de facto specific wording and results of the Potsdam Agreement (including the sign-off by the US President and the British PM), namely that the Soviets, Czechs & Poles could expell 100% of ethnic Germans from their areas of Eastern Europe into Occupation Zone Germany (for the Poles this meant territory to include all 1937 German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line, with the exception of northern East Prussia, which was destined for "final Peace Treaty" debate on incorporation into the USSR). What the US President & British PM signed off when approving the Potsdam Agreement included the specific, stand alone words, "The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof . . . " : "German populations" is left open to legal interpretation as meaning 100% of the ethnic German population in any given area, to include virtually all areas under consideration. The US & Brit members on the ACC knew by the end of their above indicated ACC meeting with the Soviet ACC representative(s) that that was precisely what the Soviets had in mind. No influential member of either the US or British government stepped forward to effectively challenge the ACC in the direct aftermath of the ACC's roll over, and thus the Potsdam Agreement became a 100% solution, regarding ethnic German population transfers, and was completely controlled by the Soviets in that regard. (Note: I've noticed a pattern of contributers starting to pretend that the Poles had a certain amount of limited freedom in their aggressive behavior toward expelling ethnic Germans. My advice to them: Get over it(!) . . . the Soviet Russians and their Army controlled EVERYTHING !! . . . there was no such thing as the Soviets later learning that the Poles had been harsh in some expulsion action and thus the Soviets (i.e., as a power center rather than individuals) were somewhat taken aback. Those are FAIRY TALES!! -- the Soviets controlled what the Poles did and could have easily stopped any "outrage", whether it be caught in mid-process, or simply by preventing re-occurrences. It is likely that the Soviets simply gave tacit approval to everthing the Poles did to expell the Germans -- both the Poles (in general) & Russians agreed upon the major issue: the expulsion of the Germans (not much room for sentiment in such proceedings).)

(3) In 1945 NOTHING COULD HAPPEN ANYWHERE in the Eastern Europe countries "liberated" by the Soviet Army without explicit or tacit Soviet agreement. Specifically, this includes the "Wild transfers".ANNRC (talk) 09:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Legality of the expulsions

re "Timothy V. Waters argues in 'On the Legal Construction of Ethnic Cleansing' that if similar circumstances arise in the future . . . would also allow the future ethnic cleansing of other populations under international law...." Comment: "similar circumstances" would by definition involve "unconditional surrender". Likewise, de Zayas says nothing about "unconditional surrender" in his book "A Terrible Revenge".ANNRC (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights

RE: "Ayala Lasso gave the German expellees recognition as victims of gross violations of human rights at the memorial service at the Paulskirche in Frankfurt a.M. on 28 May 1995" Comment: Given the international organizational focus on human rights starting about 1949 (Geneva Convention) and on-going, the assumption must be that if a future war includes specifications of "unconditional surrender", that the international organizations will be more pro-active in safeguarding human rights than they were, say, in 1943 when Roosevelt pushed for unconditional surrender. And of course, the climate of 1943 was followed in the same vein by that of 1944, 45, 46, etc.ANNRC (talk) 09:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The U.N. Charter was signed June 26, 1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ANNRC (talk • contribs) 07:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Added

Added on legal aspects in regards to UN Charter. Shortened the De Zayas quote. Although he is personal backer of BdV far more important people are not quoted.--Molobo (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

• B-Class Germany articles
• High-importance Germany articles
• WikiProject Germany articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics