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"Jewish American"

Template:RFCbio

I dispute that we need a first-sentence identifier of Seinfeld as a "Jewish American." I understand completely that his comedy springs from the Jewish tradition in America and that it's relevant that he is Jewish. But I dispute that the fact that he was raised Jewish is necessary as a first-sentence qualifier to "American." Other Misplaced Pages articles on people who happen to be Jewish don't contain such qualifiers, generally, and the first sentence is the place only for the most general of information. Seinfeld does not refer to being Jewish all that often in his comedy (though of course it's hardly a secret), and I really fail to see why his religion is relevant enough to put in the first sentence. The first paragraph, sure, but not the introductory sentence. Moncrief 00:28, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

That's fair enough. I still mildly disagree on the relevance issue, but not nearly enough to contest the point RMoloney 00:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity should be included, that's pretty obvious. As for Seinfeld mentioning it – it exists ("Elaine, let me tell you something about the Jewish people"), although I can't recall the specific episode at the moment. Drone2Gather (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

His nationality is American, not Jewish, which is not a nationality (there's an Israeli nationality, but that of course is different). To Drone2Gather: making that kind of change will require finding consensus. That is a big change and WP:BLP is policy. Also, do not accuse other editors of vandalism as you did on my talk page when it is clearly not. Please see WP:ASSUME. freshacconci talktalk 19:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish" defines nationality. It distinguishes us from gentiles. Please do some research on the subject, as it is a part of what I am and how I grew up (see your talk page). Drone2Gather (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

It may define your nationality for you, but does it define Jerry Seinfeld's nationality? Is that what he says about himself? Since he's still alive, unless you have a verified reference from a credible source, we have to adhere to the biography of living persons policy. Banaticus (talk) 22:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

No problem, I'll find a source that confirms that Seinfeld is a Jew. On the way, I also might find some sources confirming that he lives on Earth, that dogs bark and that the Pope is Catholic :-) Drone2Gather (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

freshacconci was right, Seinfeld's nationality is American, not Jewish. He's not an Israeli expatriot living temporarily in or otherwise visiting the US. His religion, his ethnicity, whatever, please just source your edits and conform to WP:BLP, ok? ;) Banaticus (talk) 23:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

When you are born to Jewish parents (actually, even a Jewish mother is enough) you are automatically Jewish by nationality unless you openly renounce it. "Israeli" and "Jewish" are not the same; there are Israeli non-Jews as well as Jewish non-Israelis. Many Jewish families live outside of Israel without having any actual connection to Israel, yet they are Jewish by nationality. I wonder how many times I'm going to have to explain this... Drone2Gather (talk) 23:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

1) The link already existed in the article, there wasn't a need to move it. 2) The link specifically calls him "American Jewish" -- you can't ignore the "American" part simply because you were raised with a particular viewpoint ("it is a part of what I am and how I grew up"). Please, again, use a verifiable link to a credible source that says exactly what you're saying when you reference it when changing the nationality of a living person, in accordance with WP:BLP. Banaticus (talk) 23:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

As I imagined, I have to explain it again. "American Jewish" consists of two words: American – his place of residency and citizenship, and Jewish – his nationality. As for your warning on my talk page – too bad you are attacking me with these vandalism warnings when my edits are clearly made in good faith. Drone2Gather (talk) 23:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at Nationality -- as a citizen of the US, as a person who lives and works in the US, as a person who is apparently comfortable with all of that, his nationality is at least partially American, unless you're saying that he's disowning the US, that he's claiming that his sole nationality is Jewish. You haven't given a link that says that Jerry Seinfeld has ever made such a declaration or even feels like that. You can't disown a living person person from the nationality of the country that they continue to live in, work in, maintain citizenship with and are apparently comfortable with, without a good verifiable reference from a credible source. Banaticus (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I've taken a look, here's a quote:

The word citizenship is often used in a different sense from nationality... nationality can refer to membership in a nations (collective of people sharing a national identity, usually based on ethnic and cultural ties and self-determination).

Drone2Gather (talk) 00:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to keep having what's becoming the same discussion in two places at once. You pick the place, either Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette_alerts#Constructive_edits_being_repeatedly_called_.22vandalism.22.2C_block_warnings_posted_without_any_attempts_of_discussing_the_matter or here, then I'll continue that discussion in that place. Banaticus (talk) 00:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

In that case, please post a clarification on my talk page regarding your "stop vandalizing or you'll be blocked" template. I've erased it, but it still looks bad on my history. When we're clear on my good faith, I'll gladly continue the discussion as we both want the best of Misplaced Pages's interests. (I gotta sleep soon, so it'll most likely be tomorrow.) Drone2Gather (talk) 00:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

So... here? Drone2Gather (talk) 00:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

In the last little while, another user has responded there and you responded and yet another user responded, so the discussion should likely continue over there since it hasn't continued here in the meantime. Banaticus (talk) 02:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

• Now for the content dispute. I just want to ask, is anyone actually claiming that Seinfeld is not Jewish? Of course Misplaced Pages articles do need to be verified, but I'm just wondering if this fact is actually doubted/debated by anyone or if this whole quibble is just over where to mention it and whether "Jewish" is a nationality, a religion, an ethnicity, a culture, or some combination thereof. For the record, I do not think nationality is the right answer. Where is the country called "Jewish"? Judaism is a religion, but Jewish is a culture, of which Judaism is a part. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • It really doesnt matter what it is, we can be pretty certain it isn't a nation and therefore not a nationality. --neon white talk 15:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've just noticed your comment. Jews are a nation!!! Please stop the revert cycle and wait until RFC is closed. Drone2Gather (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I can live with that. Jewish American it is. Drone2Gather (talk) 05:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we may have had a disconnect here. Seinfeld could be defined as a "Jewish American" but there is not agreement that that constitutes his nationality, indeed I think it is clear from the above conversation that consensus is quite the opposite. I have no objection to him being characterized that way in the lead of the article, as it is accurate, but it does not belong in the infobox as his nationality. If there is still disagreement on this then I suggest a request for comment be initiated to involve even more previously uninvolved editors. Let's not edit war or keep going around in circular debate here. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (biographies) on how intro paragraphs should be written - Opening paragraph #3 - "Nationality - In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable... Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability."

While some cases could be made that Seinfeld uses frequent references to Jewishness in his comedy and on his show (and thus fits the requirement of relevance), the opening "Seinfeld is an American Jewish comedian" does not tell me that. You should add something that would demonstrate this to the intro, similar to what's in Woody Allen's intro ("For inspiration, Allen draws heavily on literature, sexuality, philosophy, psychology, Jewish identity, European cinema and New York City, where he was born and has lived his entire life". All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 09:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with "fleshing" this out further into the article if warranted, but not in the lead sentence unless his ethnicity is why he is notable which doesn't seem the case here. I agree that there is quite a bit a Jewish references on the tv show, but again, that could be fleshed out in the approriate sections if properly sourced and given proper weight. Anyways, this is a digression from the original edit war over including ethnicity in the lead sentence. --Tom (talk) 14:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Grrrrrrrr... until we've finally reached consensus... Anyway, a request for comment can be a good idea. All Hallow's Wraith – I assume you know Seinfeld and the unique brand of humor he has created together with Larry David, who is also Jewish. It has "New York Jewish" written all over it. Can we at least try and exercise just a tiny bit of wp:common sense? Drone2Gather (talk) 09:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

(out)While he is, indeed, Jewish, the use of "Jewish American" does not reflect "nationality" as it also refers to religion. While some other articles use the term, it is unclear that it is the best way to handle this. WP does not, in general, otherwise use religion as the qualifier on nationality. Why not just say he is an American who is Jewish? The fact is not contested AFAICT, just the wording. (seeking compromise here) Collect (talk) 10:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason religion/ethincity cannot be mentioned in the lead of an article provided it is of sufficient importance to the subject but should not really be used in conjuction with a nationality as this is likely to mislead. --neon white talk 12:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's a message to all contributors: if you can, please refrain from editing the controversial section(s) of the article, until a compromise or consensus has been reached. Ultimately, it does not matter what the article actually says for what? 48 hours? 72 hours? This is the perfect place to work out your differences: here on the article talk page. May I suggest you use the following format. - Jarry1250 12:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

What controversial section are you talking about? This looks like run of the mill trolling. Way to much feeding is going on here. Please wrap this up so folks can move on to "real" improvements of this project. Thank you, --Tom (talk) 13:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The lead section seems to me to be the most controversial at the moment (and we're talking about violations of 3RR and such here). However, as I agree and see the possibility of this being blown out of proportion (god, I only just noticed the BLP/N thread), I have cut down on the templated sections I subst'ed below. I shall invite D2G and neon white to comment on the compromise wording of the lead section below. I'm glad you've been able to sort out the infobox according per the MoS, hopefully everyone will be able to agree that that is a non-controversial solution. - Jarry1250 14:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

compromise wording of the lead section?? What compromise is needed or deserved here? Has anybody read WP:MOSBIO where it deals with this "issue" specifically? I came here from the BLP board and it seems like a number of editors have reverted this bio back to it's "stable" version. Leaving ethnicity out of the lead sentence and info box as is the "standard" for 99.99% of bios. At some point, just chalk this up to, er, whatever, and lets all move on. Seriously, is there more here than one(?) tenatious editor bent on pointing out that Seinfeld is Jewish in the opening sentence? Ethnicity is covered in the early life section as it should be. Anyways, I will chill for now and let others chime in. Cheers! --Tom (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Tom, my role as the "lone Jew protecting him or herself from (sometimes-not-so) subtle antisemitism" is well known in this world. Please quit trying to "shush" this discussion, let alone the "trolling" assumptions. I'm starting to doubt who might be really trolling here. Drone2Gather (talk) 14:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

What are you babbling about? I have been dealing with this type of trolling for, er, 3 plus years now in this project. You have been the "lone Jew protecting him or herself from (sometimes-not-so) subtle antisemitism" in this project for how many days now? I will let others decide who not to feed, thank you very much. --Tom (talk) 14:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Compromise wording (lead section)

Anyone edits this paragraph:

... is an American comedian (etc.), who is Jewish, whose style is often described as ... is my suggestion for clear compromise wording. Collect (talk) 13:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The article American Jews talks about notable Jewish persons, who are also citizens of the US. Therefore, the original wording seems to work fine: "is a Jewish American comedian." Your wording, although obviously suggested in good faith, is of lesser grammatical quality. Drone2Gather (talk) 14:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not look at the obvious consensus above which does not support your argument? As for grammatical quality, I had my four years of Latin and I assure you my suggestion is grammatically correct. Have you noted the other opinions voiced above? Collect (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The primary consensus was Jewish American. At first, I wanted to point out that he is Jewish by nationality, but the objection seemed to concentrate around the fact that he is both Jewish and American. As you can see here, I have agreed with the compromise. Everything else happened afterwards. Drone2Gather (talk) 14:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting since I do not read the colloquy as you appear to do. Collect (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Collect. I appreciate you trying to reach a consensus here, but adding ethnicity to the lead sentence goes against MOSBIO and is unneeded, period. We do not do this for 99.99% of the bios out there. Why do it here? I have yet seen a good reason to deveate from the established MOS. Anyways, cheers! --Tom (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

My aim was to present a compromise which Drone, in all good conscience, should leap at, and which would not be unconscionable to others. As he seems unwilling to accede, I am perfectly happy with keeping his religion/genetics out of the lede. Seems a shame, really, that he did not jump at this offer. Collect (talk) 14:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No problem, I'll accept that if everyone's fine with it. If you examine my edit history, you can see that I am very conscious as far as grammar goes. I saw that the Seinfeld article was in need of improvement and genuinely took it as a project. Not only have no one mentioned a thing about my positive contributions, no feedback whatsoever has been received about helping me with the grammar/cleanup issue, as you can see under the last heading on this talk page. Is this how editors are being welcomed here? Drone2Gather (talk) 15:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Too bad that my attempts to glorify the contributions of the Jewish people to this world are being interpreted as trolling, while editors that deny the existence of a Jewish nation are being praised. Fuck this, I'm withdrawing from this witch trial and moving on. I am sure the Misplaced Pages community can find better ways to represent itself. Drone2Gather (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Jerry's grandfather

According to this Misplaced Pages article Jerry's grandfather, Simon Seinfeld, migrated to Ellis Island from Aleppo, Syria. However, the New York Times also stated that Jerry's grandfather migrated from Stanislau, Ukraine. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.70.114.144 (talk) 03:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

In accordance with your source, the following sentence has been removed from the article:

His grandfather was a Turkish carpenter known as "Selim Hüsnü" who migrated from Aleppo, Ottoman Empire to the USA in 1909 and took the name "Simon Seinfeld".

Please do not re-add it as it appears completely bogus, unless a source can be found (which I seriously doubt) as a matter of fact – it is bogus as I've found the correct info and inserted it. You may also notice that Simon was his paternal grandfather – the Aleppo story might be true if we're referring to the maternal side; I'll look it up later. As for your query, the NY times is obviously the reliable source out of the two. Drone2Gather (talk) 11:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

To summarize it: I've done my part as for finding reliable sources and established Jerry's roots from both sides of the family: he is half Ashkenazi and half Sephardic (half European and half Mideastern). I see no valid reason for removing this information as WP:OR as the NY Times is a reliable source. Anyone thinking otherwise? Drone2Gather (talk) 05:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• Obviously I thought otherwise. I don't think his family tree going back three generations is particularly relevant to his bio. If you examine this edit I did two things, which is why there are two remarks in the edit summary. I removed the genealogical information, and a sentence tagged with a {{fact}} tag. I didn't mean to say that the family history was OR, but rather the other sentence. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

That's actually two generations. Judging by the previous discussion (nationality) you might think that I'm somewhat biased (since I'm Jewish myself) but I think the history of Jews in diaspora is fascinating, especially when it comes to an immensely influential figure such as Seinfeld. Specifically, the European-Arab mix, which is quite surprising to anyone who knows him, not necessarily fans. Would you like to take it to WP:3O/WP:RfC? As for the {{fact}} tag – it's fairly fresh, I'd give it at least a month or so. I'll try and find the source myself. It generally seems to me that editors here are quick to remove. As long as it's not defamatory, I see no reason to "aggressively remove it" (as stated in the respective policy). Drone2Gather (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Again, I don't think either of these things, verified or not, are particularly important to his bio, be they sourced or not. This is an encyclopedic article, not a book-length biography. The purpose is to summarize the significant events of Jerry Seinfeld's life and career, not document his family history. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

We are obviously in disagreement here, so I'll repeat my proposition: would you like to take it to WP:3O/WP:RfC? Drone2Gather (talk) 07:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

(out)Minor point: Sephardim were from Iberia, thence to North Africa. As a result, many of their traditions differ from the Ashkenazim, but they are both equally "Jewish." As a practical matter, one group speaks Yiddish, the other, Ladino. Collect (talk) 11:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The word "Sephardim" originates from the Hebrew word ספרדים, which literally translates as "Spaniards." Basically, after the exile of Spanish Jews by the end of the 15th century, some went to Eastern Europe and some to the Arab countries in the Mideastern region. The term describes the latter. Therefore, it relates to Jews whose roots can be traced to Southwest Asia and North Africa. Drone2Gather (talk) 14:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I would submit that Morocco and the other North African countries are neither in "Eastern Europe" nor in "Southwest Asia", and are definitely not "Mideastern." I also consider "Iberia" to be the proper geographical term, since the Moors ruled much of what is now Spain and Portugal. Okay? Collect (talk) 14:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Grammar

Am I the only one who thinks the grammar in this article is in desperate need of improvement? I'll do what I can, but I don't really have the time to proofread the entire thing. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Drone2Gather (talk) 12:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

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