| Revision as of 17:24, 15 May 2009 editAncientObserver (talk | contribs)583 edits →Gallery of mummies← Previous edit | Revision as of 09:49, 17 May 2009 edit undoLusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk | contribs)435 edits Aristotle and Cheikh Anta DiopNext edit → | ||
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| :I don't see this. What I do see is people trying to refight this discussion with original arguments, instead of relying on reliable sources and what they say. I'd also say that the value of 4000 year old pictures drawn with a limited choice of colours and according to schools of art that have died out 300 generations ago in determining the race of the subjects tends towards nil, especially for laymen like most of us here. And that goes either way. --] (]) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC) | :I don't see this. What I do see is people trying to refight this discussion with original arguments, instead of relying on reliable sources and what they say. I'd also say that the value of 4000 year old pictures drawn with a limited choice of colours and according to schools of art that have died out 300 generations ago in determining the race of the subjects tends towards nil, especially for laymen like most of us here. And that goes either way. --] (]) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ==Aristotle and Cheikh Anta Diop== | |||
| Aristotle wrote a sentence refering to the black skin of the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. It was in the old version of the article. It does no longer appear here. Could somebody find it? Otherwise I will try myself to retrieve it. Besides, I have the impression that someone removed the study on the skin of mummies done by Cheikh Anta Diop. This study is very important to understand why ancient Egyptians have to be considered as Blacks. It was presented at the Egyptological Cairo Symposium in 1974. But who is this man who always tries to destroy Diop's contributions?--] (]) 09:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC) | |||
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WP:Synth re Ahmed Saleh in King Tut section
One editor repeatedly moves around a comment about Ahmed Saleh to make it look like the comment referred to a press conference by Hawass on the race of Tut. In fact this is false. The comments by Hawass happened at a press conference in 2007 - see all references. The criticism by Saleh happened in 2005 - see reference quoted in the article at http://www.guardians.net/hawass/articles/Eternal_Egypt_Is_His_Business.htm. See also http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=3383, which makes it quite clear that the confrontation happened in or before January 2005. These comments were therefore clearly not a response to the press conference of Hawass, which only occurred two years later. The para on Saleh should be placed chronologically to reflect the true picture. Repeated attempts to correct this have been repeatedly reverted by an editor who clearly wants to create the false impression that Saleh was responding to the comments of Hawass in 2007. Wdford (talk) 11:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Wdford. To the contrary, I'd initially placed it where it was relevant and YOU kept moving and rearranging the context. Please explain. It doesn't have to be a response to Hawass' press conference, it was a response to his views. They are noted rivals and suppressing his opinion or pushing it to the background creates a preference for otherwise strictly subjective opinions. As far as yelling WP:Synth at every corner, it's getting worn out to the point where it lacks merit, especially when YOU'RE the one changing the majority of everyone's edits. Remember, wiki has a policy against article ownership..Taharqa (talk) 20:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
As I already explained above about the Saleh-Hawass conflict, Hawass stated in a CNN segment that Tut was not Black back in 2005 before Saleh got involved, so the 2007 statement was only a repeat of his position. That sentence by Saleh says he disagrees with many of Hawass's statements which is the truth. It doesn't matter that he made the comment in 2005. It doesn't read like a response to that interview it reads like a general criticism of Hawass on the subject which is exactly what it is. The comment is fine where it is. AncientObserver (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Hair Morphology
I recommend that a segment be made for hair morphology in the Anthropometric indicators section of the draft page. The hair of Ancient Egyptian mummies has been analyzed by several scholars to assess racial characteristics. We have an entire segment on Ramesses II which speaks primarily about the color of his hair. The texture and color of hair is analyzed by forensic scientists and used as evidence in criminal cases to identify individuals as well as determine the race of the person the hair belonged to. I recommend looking for sources to adequately address this topic. AncientObserver (talk) 20:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Good idea! Last year or two years ago, I don't remember well, there was something about it, if not in article then in the talk page. Still, the issue was raised. Taharqa might know about it and about the sources.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- This posting at mathilda's blog has a lot of information on Egyptian hair. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- Here's a webpage on Nile Valley Hair that also has alot of resources and info on Ancient Egyptian hair. AncientObserver (talk) 15:19, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Moving the draft
I think the draft is virtually ready to be incorporated into the main article. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think so to. The overall outline looks fine. We can always make further edits once it becomes the main article. AncientObserver (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- I have preliminarily merged the draft into the article. We can continue to work on the draft for important changes. Wapondaponda (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I think so to. The overall outline looks fine. We can always make further edits once it becomes the main article. AncientObserver (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Pictures
The pictures representing the Egyptians and the foreigners are renderings by moderns and not real images as made by the Egyptians. The main article does mention this fact. But the draft version doensn't. If kept the way it is in the draft, it might create polemics.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Why was Keita's quote on DNA deleted?
Wapondaponda, I'd like to know why you deleted this quote. The reason you gave was that it doesn't directly address the DNA evidence but the purpose of putting it at the beginning of the section is to give people an expert's perspective on the usefulness of DNA studies altogether. I took the time to transcribe the quote myself. I think it is very useful to the section. There are quotes throughout this entire article by experts on other subjects so I see no reason to delete this one. AncientObserver (talk) 03:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- AncientObserver, I removed the following quote:
When the question of race is raised about the Ancient Egyptians or any other African population it has to be understood that the concept of race is not felt to be valid by most modern scientists. The concept of race involved grouping people based on their external and anatomical characteristics. However we know that in Africa, basically the homeland of modern humans, that there is great diversity. So, the question to really ask is whether or not the diversity that we see there, in Africa, is indigenious, is of African origin. At the current moment it's very difficult to talk about the diversity of the ancient population because we don't have a lot of ancient DNA studies. However in terms of physical diversity it can be imagined that the modern diversity to be found in Egypt in terms of craniofacial features, skin color and what have you would likely have been very similar to that found in the past. We do have to acknowledge that at different moments in time, especially in Northern Egypt, various peoples who were non-Egyptian in terms of their ethno-nationality did in fact come into the country. I do think it's possible to look at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely are due to external influences of more recent time depths vs. more ancient influences perhaps even going back to the paleolithic period.
- The main reason is that it is quite long and DNA studies are barely mentioned. I agree that there are many quotes in the article. But in the long run we should try to cut down on quotes. In general quotes should be avoided in wiki articles and should be replaced by summaries. Only when there is a dispute about the interpretation of source do quotes become appropriate as per Misplaced Pages:Proveit#cite_note-1. In addition the portal wikiquote is meant specifically for quotes. See this essay for more information onMisplaced Pages:QuotationsWapondaponda (talk) 04:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Théophile Obenga's theory on the Egyptian language
Wapondaponda, I beg you to avoid provocations calling fringe theory what Obanga said about the Egyptian language. Maybe you don't know who Obanga is on the issue regarding the ancient Egyptians. I am not saying that he is absolutely right against others. But he is an autority having written extensively on ancient Egypt and having discussed successfully on the subject at the Egyptological Cairo Conference of 1974. Get informed if you are ignorant about this Cairo conference. I am going to put back what he said. If you cancel it again, I am going to eliminate systematically your contributions to which I don't agree. Please be careful and respectful if you want to be respected. You don't own this article, neither I. This article is about a controversy, not about what you like.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Luka, I somewhat disagree. Linguists are in widespread agreement on the existence of the Afro-asiatic language. If anything, it was Joseph Greenberg who fought against Eurocentric bias when he coined the term "Afro-Asiatic", specifically placing "Afro" in front rather than it being "Asiatic-African" language. Greenberg place Afro in first place to highlight that it was predominantly an African language family. Even Afrocentric and Africanist scholars such as Ivan van Sertima, Shomarka Keita, Christopher Ehret and Martin Bernal all acknowledge the existence of Afro-Asiatic languages. The theory by Obenga is very much a fringe theory and it makes the case for a black egypt much worse because it gives ammunition to those who claim Afrocentrism is Pseudoscience. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- I also desagree with you, Wapondaponda. Of cause I am not saying that I agree with Obenga in all. But we still have to report his theory in this disputed subject because Obenga is an autority in Egyptology. According to Obenga, Egyptian with Coptic form a group which is related to other African languages from a common ancestor. This theory is meaningful in that it justifies the so many elements common to Egyptian and other African languages. But its disadvantage is that it considers the Egyptian language as a group. Egyptian is not a group or a family. It was a spoken language. People who write about the Afro-Asiatic languages, I don't mind if they are called Bernal or Van Sertima or else, make the same mistake. How can you really put Egyptian, a spoken language, at the same level with Semitic which is an intellectual reconstructed family of languages? Egyptian has to be put at the same level with Arab, Hebrew, Wolof who are also spoken languages. I don't mind where this so called Afro-Asian languages were born. It is an absurd theory, because it mixes different levels of languages. Check for yourself, Wapondaponda, what I am saying. Jean-François Champollion noticed, at the birth of Egyptology, that Egyptian has nothing to do with Asian languages. Alan Gardiner, in the introduction of his Egyptian Grammar, observed that the Egyptian language has to be put outside the Semitic group because it shares very few elements with the languages of this group. Gardiner advocated for researches to be made inside Africa to give to Egyptian a true family. Serge Sauneron, at the Egyptological Cairo Conference of 1974, said that the common elements between Egyptian and languages of the Semitic group are not only few but also due to borrowings. Sauneron, like Gardiner, asked for intensive studies of the Egyptian in relation with the other African languages up to now left aside. It is here that enters Obenga. I have to mention his effort. But personally, I agree with Aboubacry Moussa Lam to consider West and Central African languages as Neo-egyptian languages. They represent the continuation of the Egyptian outside Egypt like the Coptic is the continuation of the Egyptian inside Egypt. I don't care for the Afro-Asiatic theory. But I am not afraid to see it mentioned in the article.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Luka, you are entitled to have an opinion on this, but so far, Obenga's theory has no support in mainstream science. I am not a linguist, but from what I can tell, languages families are scientifically and methodically reconstructed based on similarities of root words. Several independent studies have confirmed the relationship of Afro-Asiatic languages. According to Obenga "Afroasiatic was created with the purpose of cutting off culturally the Egypt-Nubian Nile Valley from the rest of Africa". This is not the case, because chadic and east African languages are all part of the Afro-Asiatic language family. In fact most scholars place the origin of Semitic language in Ethiopia. That being the case, there seems no evidence of an attempt to cut off the Egyptian language from the rest of Africa, rather the opposite is true. As far as I can tell, Obenga has not done any scientific language reconstructions to verify his hypothesis, that in addition to the lack of acceptance of his theory, even among Afrocentrists, it qualifies as a WP:FRINGE theory and should be treated accordingly. I agree that Ancient Egyptian is a single language but is treated as a separate language family. The reason it is treated as separate is because it related to the other language families, semitic, omotic, cushitic etc, but like you said it is almost equally divergent from them. There are various theories, some say Egyptian is similar to semitic and berber, others say it is most similar to chadic and beja, languages spoken by black Africans. But both these claims have been made with objective science rather than Obenga's pseudoscience. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Wapondaponda, it is not my intention to monopolize the discussion. But I would like to tell you that Obenga defended his theory at the Cairo Conference in 1974 where he was found to be with Diop on the best ground. Please read the report of that Conference and you will know what it means to do science. Obenga is not doing pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is on the side of people comparing languages which don't go together. I told you that according to Gardiner, Egyptian has little in common with Semitic languages. And that little, according to Sauneron, is from borrowed and not from inherited elements. If you work with this few elements, ignoring that they were borrowed by one language or the other, to show that those languages are related, you are on the wrong ground, methodologically speaking. Afro-Asiatic theory has no scientific bases. No confirmed Egyptologist can support it. Once more, I am inviting you to read the conclusion of the Cairo Conference. If you want to know more about Obenga's theory, read the introduction of African Philosophy: The Pharaonic Period: 2780-330BC, Origine commune de l'égyptien ancien, du copte et des langues négro-africaines modernes: Introduction à la linguistique historique africaine, La langue égyptienne pharaonique et les langues africaines modernes,Le sens de la lutte contre l'africanisme eurocentriste, and have a look at this Tableau negro egyptien theophile obenga.png. The publicity made around the Afro-Asiatic theory will not be enough to conceal its poor ground. It doesn't resist to a close and objective examination. Africa is not limited to East Africa, Wapondaponda! Wolof is spoken in West Africa and is classified as West Atlantic within the Niger-Congo. It is more closely related to Egyptian both in grammar (syntax) and in vocabulary (morphology and semantic) than any Semitic language. Mboshi, a Bantu language spoken in Central Africa, is also more related to Egyptian than any Semitic language. What are going to do with those facts? The Afro-Asiatic theorists Egyptian in comparison with Berber. Gardiner rejected this relation he qualified as thorny question! I maintain that Egyptian was a spoken language. It has to be compared with spoken languages. Egyptian is not a reconstructed group of languages. Those, like the Afro-Asiatic theorists, who are working on the Egyptian as if it is a group of languages, are absolutely wrong, methodologically speaking. They have to change their method if they want to be convincing. Good publicity is not synonymous of good science. They might control magazines and house editions, they don't control minds.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 09:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Luka, you are entitled to have an opinion on this, but so far, Obenga's theory has no support in mainstream science. I am not a linguist, but from what I can tell, languages families are scientifically and methodically reconstructed based on similarities of root words. Several independent studies have confirmed the relationship of Afro-Asiatic languages. According to Obenga "Afroasiatic was created with the purpose of cutting off culturally the Egypt-Nubian Nile Valley from the rest of Africa". This is not the case, because chadic and east African languages are all part of the Afro-Asiatic language family. In fact most scholars place the origin of Semitic language in Ethiopia. That being the case, there seems no evidence of an attempt to cut off the Egyptian language from the rest of Africa, rather the opposite is true. As far as I can tell, Obenga has not done any scientific language reconstructions to verify his hypothesis, that in addition to the lack of acceptance of his theory, even among Afrocentrists, it qualifies as a WP:FRINGE theory and should be treated accordingly. I agree that Ancient Egyptian is a single language but is treated as a separate language family. The reason it is treated as separate is because it related to the other language families, semitic, omotic, cushitic etc, but like you said it is almost equally divergent from them. There are various theories, some say Egyptian is similar to semitic and berber, others say it is most similar to chadic and beja, languages spoken by black Africans. But both these claims have been made with objective science rather than Obenga's pseudoscience. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- I also desagree with you, Wapondaponda. Of cause I am not saying that I agree with Obenga in all. But we still have to report his theory in this disputed subject because Obenga is an autority in Egyptology. According to Obenga, Egyptian with Coptic form a group which is related to other African languages from a common ancestor. This theory is meaningful in that it justifies the so many elements common to Egyptian and other African languages. But its disadvantage is that it considers the Egyptian language as a group. Egyptian is not a group or a family. It was a spoken language. People who write about the Afro-Asiatic languages, I don't mind if they are called Bernal or Van Sertima or else, make the same mistake. How can you really put Egyptian, a spoken language, at the same level with Semitic which is an intellectual reconstructed family of languages? Egyptian has to be put at the same level with Arab, Hebrew, Wolof who are also spoken languages. I don't mind where this so called Afro-Asian languages were born. It is an absurd theory, because it mixes different levels of languages. Check for yourself, Wapondaponda, what I am saying. Jean-François Champollion noticed, at the birth of Egyptology, that Egyptian has nothing to do with Asian languages. Alan Gardiner, in the introduction of his Egyptian Grammar, observed that the Egyptian language has to be put outside the Semitic group because it shares very few elements with the languages of this group. Gardiner advocated for researches to be made inside Africa to give to Egyptian a true family. Serge Sauneron, at the Egyptological Cairo Conference of 1974, said that the common elements between Egyptian and languages of the Semitic group are not only few but also due to borrowings. Sauneron, like Gardiner, asked for intensive studies of the Egyptian in relation with the other African languages up to now left aside. It is here that enters Obenga. I have to mention his effort. But personally, I agree with Aboubacry Moussa Lam to consider West and Central African languages as Neo-egyptian languages. They represent the continuation of the Egyptian outside Egypt like the Coptic is the continuation of the Egyptian inside Egypt. I don't care for the Afro-Asiatic theory. But I am not afraid to see it mentioned in the article.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 17:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Picture Vandalism by AnwarSadatFan
AnwarSadatFan deleted the following images:
File:Sphinx Frank Domingo.jpg - (→The Great Sphinx of Giza: rmv, this illustration is from the book "Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe?" which is an extremely Afrocentrist/Black supremacist)
File:Mannequin of Tutankhamun.jpg|Bust of Tutankhamun. File:VdR TIV9.jpg|Thutmosis IV. File:Amenhotep III.jpg| Amenhotep III. File:Ancient Egyptian women playing musical instruments.jpg - (→Gallery of ancient Egyptian art: these images were painted and colored in modern times, only have images that have original coloring)
There was nothing wrong with these images. There is no evidence that any of the images in the gallery were painted during modern times and calling the Black Spark, White Fire book an Afrocentrist/Black Supremacist book is an Ad Hominem attack that does not justify deleting the image which had material relevant to The Sphinx Controversy. When I work out the copyright status of the images the bot deleted I'm putting them back up and I recommend that AnwarSadatFan be blocked from this page if he continues to make disruptive edits. AncientObserver (talk) 09:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Can AnwarSadatFan come here in the talk page and discuss openly changes he is making in the article? What does he call an Afrocentrist website? Is afrocentrist opposed to science? What about other websites? Are they really neutral? Or are they simply Eurocentrist? How can he make the cause for the pictures? Maybe he is right. But why is he acting in the hiding?--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I am not even mad at AnwarSadat, I'm more annoyed at the admins higher up who do not seem to be interested in moderating this, but will moderate us to this point to prevent the black side from really having a voice in the debate. Like it's not a "real" debate. Just this article is a way of sandboxing us. --Panehesy (talk) 03:31, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- AnwarSadatfan attempted another mass deletion of pictures without seeking consensus from the other editors. Anwar if the gallery is getting too big or you don't think the page should have a gallery we can talk about that but constantly deleting images that other people made an effort to contribute to the page gives a bad impression of your intentions. AncientObserver (talk) 17:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Since the picture gallery is becoming a major distraction, it is worth considering getting rid of it and placing it in commons. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The problem isn't the gallery. The problem is AnwarSadatfan constantly deleting pictures in the article that he doesn't want there. I told him on his page that he should discuss this here or I would report him for making disruptive edits and while he did come to the discussion page he is continuing the same behavior. AncientObserver (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- The gallery is not a "major distraction." WP policy encourages the use of images to support the topic, and these images (if carefully selected) illustrate very well the basis of the controversy. However one editor has a problem with the validity of certain images (although does not explain why) and some other editors seem to think that the controversy will be settled by counting the images "supporting" each side of the debate, as though its an election, but overall the gallery is an aid not a distraction. Wdford (talk) 20:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Copyright problems
AncientObserver, some of the images that you have uploaded, aren't in the public domain such as this image. It will only be a matter of time before a bot will delete it for the umpteenth time. See Misplaced Pages:Image use policy for more information. Wapondaponda (talk) 17:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, as I said before when I requested help, I am still learning how to properly make copyrights for the images. AncientObserver (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Yep. The Caucasian side certainly has THAT one down. They put a million images of anything and it passes the copywright bot. But one black image comes up and a thousand points of copywright protection are activated. --Panehesy (talk) 03:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's very likely that I'm simply not putting up the proper copyright. I don't think the other editors are involved in a conspiracy with the moderators to suppress images they view as too Black, atleast I hope not. AncientObserver (talk) 12:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I was trying to find a copyright release to add, but instead found "Osirisnet is a totally non-profit site, and without advertisements. The site is copyrighted. Nevertheless, we are always happy to help people, especially students, wanting some documents or photos for a non commercial use.", which seems to indicate that the images are not free. They may be willing to relicense some images under a proper CC-BY-SA license. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC) (speaking for the conspiracy)
Wdford and the 1974 Cairo Egyptological Symposium
Wdford, I am happy to see that you have found the report of the 1974 Cairo Egyptological Symposium. You quoted in the article the anthropological conclusions which seemed to "whiten" the Egyptians. But you fail to quote the linguistic conclusions. It is, I believe, because that Symposium mentionned that Egyptian has nothing to do with Semitic languages, and that efforts must be made to find for Egyptian related laguages within Africa. This is something damaging for those who support the Afro-Asiatic theory. You will show some degree of neutrality if you bring the linguistic conclusions of the Cairo Symposium to the article.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 08:06, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Did the entire Symposium agree that Afro-Asiatic does not really exist, or was that just Obenga's suggestion? I don't have the report with me this week, and I won't get a chance to read it again for a few more days.Wdford (talk) 13:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please read carefully the general report by Professor Jean Devisse! You will understand why Egyptian has nothing to do with Asiatic languages but everything to do with African languages. Egyptologists present at the Cairo Symposium embraced fully the conclusions made by Cheikh Anta Diop and Théophile Obenga.--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Did the entire Symposium agree that Afro-Asiatic does not really exist, or was that just Obenga's suggestion? I don't have the report with me this week, and I won't get a chance to read it again for a few more days.Wdford (talk) 13:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Lusala, do you have a link that provides the conclusions of the 1974 Symposium? I would like to read it. From what I understand the symposium could not reach a consensus on the race of the Ancient Egyptians and stated that more research needed to be done in that area (this was stated in an audio clip by Zahi Hawass which is available online). AncientObserver (talk) 14:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- AncientObserver, I failled to find a link which provides the English text of the Symposium. I am giving you a French abstract from an article: "un large accord s'est établi entre les participants". "Les éléments apportés par les professeurs DIOP et OBENGA ont été considérés comme très constructifs. (…) Plus largement, le professeur SAUNERON a souligné l'intérêt de la méthode proposée par le professeur OBENGA après le professeur DIOP. L'Égypte étant placée au point de convergence d'influences extérieures, il est normal que des emprunts aient été faits à des langues étrangères ; mais il s'agit de quelques centaines de racines sémitiques par rapport à plusieurs milliers de mots. L'égyptien ne peut être isolé de son contexte africain et le sémitique ne rend pas compte de sa naissance ; il est donc légitime de lui trouver des parents ou des cousins en Afrique.". Otherwise, the English text can be found in the following book The Peopling of Ancient Egypt & The Deciphering of the Meroitic Script.Hotep!--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Amenhotep III placed in gallery is not an original
This image of Amenhotep III is not an original. Please only place original artwork in the gallery that has not been modified in modern times. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 21:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence that the artwork is not an original or that Tut's mannequin was painted in modern times? And the book Black Spark, White Fire is not a racial Supremacist book. It contains plenty of credible references relevant to this article. These edits of yours are unacceptable. Just because you don't like a source or picture it's not grounds to make excuses for removing material. AncientObserver (talk) 00:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
And this is what I'm talking about. This is unfair and unbalanced. I'm tired of everytime a black image is put on it's scrutinized so badly, but the white images aren't. Have we verified the copywright to such an extent for the Caucasoid ones? What is the criterion? "free for public use". ok who determines that--Panehesy (talk) 03:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Gallery of mummies
Since there is a gallery of artwork (which isn't really reliable) we should also have a gallery of mummies. That would be very valuable to the reader. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't recommend it. Mummies are quite gruesome to some people and looking at a decayed old corpse is not a good way to analyze its racial characteristics. I do think more should be said about the actual analysis of mummies such as the X-ray scans and hair analysis. AncientObserver (talk) 12:12, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I think mummies are defintely a much better way to analyze their racial characteristics than paintings that were recolored in modern times and statues that were reconstructed in modern times. Let's create a gallery of mummies, it is the most neutral and objective way to analyze this controversy. AnwarSadatFan (talk) 05:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Most of the artwork was not recolored or reconstructed. If you are going to make those allegations against certain images in the gallery provide a reliable source. Mummies are not very reliable because they are decayed old corpses. We can't tell the skin color of a mummy by looking at it and the facial thickness of a decayed mummy does not reflect the appearance of the person when they are alive. Even the hair is suspect. Anthropometric analysis of ancient remains are much more reliable for assessing biological characteristics. I for one don't support the idea but it would be good if some of the other editors weighed in. AncientObserver (talk) 13:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to do a section on mummies, here is some interesting material to think about. http://guywhite.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/egyptian-mummies-clearly-white/ Wdford (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's a racist blog, WDford. I found this page, which contains several credible sources on mummy hair, to be far more insightful. AncientObserver (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Can we be more straightforward here
Can we all at least admit this:
1. The images of Egyptians which denote them being black are not being put on. 2. There is far too much reaction to any black images. There are users here who are asking for far too much verification for the black stuff, but they make excuses for posting the white stuff without using the same scrutiny.
Can we at least agree that this IS happening? --Panehesy (talk) 03:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
That tut picture is really irritating, especially in that the other two representations in the same study are not posted. Why? Let me guess, someone is going to say "The cover is good enough". Well my response is this: It's good enough for an agenda to push one side of the debate, it's not good enough for the article to show both sides, as that is the purpose of the article, to demonstrate the reality of the debate. After all, the studies were done blind and double blind for the other two, and were also sanctioned by the Egyptian Anitquities department. Show them. --Panehesy (talk) 03:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see this. What I do see is people trying to refight this discussion with original arguments, instead of relying on reliable sources and what they say. I'd also say that the value of 4000 year old pictures drawn with a limited choice of colours and according to schools of art that have died out 300 generations ago in determining the race of the subjects tends towards nil, especially for laymen like most of us here. And that goes either way. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Aristotle and Cheikh Anta Diop
Aristotle wrote a sentence refering to the black skin of the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. It was in the old version of the article. It does no longer appear here. Could somebody find it? Otherwise I will try myself to retrieve it. Besides, I have the impression that someone removed the study on the skin of mummies done by Cheikh Anta Diop. This study is very important to understand why ancient Egyptians have to be considered as Blacks. It was presented at the Egyptological Cairo Symposium in 1974. But who is this man who always tries to destroy Diop's contributions?--Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka (talk) 09:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
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