Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:10, 18 May 2009

Template:Archive box collapsible

Thank you very much

for the barnstar. That was very nice of you, especially considering our disagreement over the article's merit. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 18:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. What Jalapenos said.--Gilabrand (talk) 20:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar for you

		The da Vinci Barnstar
		For your excellent work on the new template for depopulated Palestinian vilages and your technical assistance in fixing layout bugs related to coding (and beyond my ken) on various pages. It's my pleasure to edit alongside you. Tiamut 15:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You deserve it and you deserve others for patience, humour and many many other things. Take care. Tiamut 09:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I noticed you like hiphop from your user page. Do you know the group The Philistines? Here's an excerpt from their song, Free the P which I think you may like:

I place my palms to the East * Where my people seek peace * And freedom from police control, checkpoints and patrols * Domination from another nation * We used to be brothers like Cain * Now they got us living under occupation the pain * Is just a feeling I can't possibly explain * But the population of Palestine could probably paint * A proper picture of their predicament to publish and frame * Put it down for posterity's sake: * Free the P

You can hear the song here. Enjoy my brother/sister! Tiamut 10:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the music links. Love to hear new stuff. Keep 'em coming. I'm supercharged on coffee can smokes right now. Been up all night and into the day. I can't seem to wind down. I hope I crash at some point soon because otherwise I might have a slip of the tongue that lands me in some kind of trouble here. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for removing the POV tag on Lydda Death March. I'm trying to understand what the problem is, but like you, it seems to be a pretty clear case of "don't like it" and I have little patience for that sort of thing (especially with a lack of sleep). I listed it at RfC Politics to get extra feedback but the bot doesn't seem to be doing his work and/or no one has seen it yet. Oh well. Its good to know that at least one person (other than the DYK reviewer) doesn't see any problems with it. Thanks again my friend. Tiamut 15:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Misrepresentations

Anyone who has a "militia" is technically a "militant organization" regardless if they have a "political wing" or not. Also, reliable sources describe them as "the Islamic militant group Hamas"(Reuters) and "the Islamist group ... de facto ruler of Gaza"(BBC) which doesn't exactly coincide with describing them as "only a political party"(Nableezy). Please avoid making this misrepresentation in the future.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 11:13, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

That's simply not true in English usage, Jaakobou. In the history of the American Revolution, to name but one example, there was a very clear distinction between extraparliamentary or extralegal militias like the Regulators, or Vigilantes, and lawful militia forming part of a regional government. One must be very careful not to confuse legal militias with nondescript 'militant organizations' that can be anything from radical militarized extraparliamentary dissent groups to fullyfledged terrorist undergrounds.Nishidani (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you've confused yourself over the issue here, Nishidani, as the intention was to discuss Hamas' organizational status being misrepresented and not the history of the American Revolution.

Warm regards though, Jaakobou 14:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC) clarify 14:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC) +clarify 14:31, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

And I didnt say "only a political party" so if we are going to speak on misrepresentations I would appreciate you not misrepresenting what I wrote. Nableezy (talk) 14:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that this is not my own misunderstanding but I'm open to reconsider if you're interested in explaining.

Warm regards, Jaakobou 14:30, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I said they have a political party and a military wing. The political party is the governing party in Gaza. So they are the government of Gaza. Nableezy (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You can't exclude their "political wing" from the rest of the Hamas movement unless you explicitly say you're referring the political wing alone. Hamas is an inclusive name for all of Hamas, not just their "political wing" and as such, "Hamas" is not just a political party. This is easily clarified when reviewing reliable sources who cite Hamas as an "Islamic militant group". I hope this issue is cleared up now.

-- Jaakobou 15:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly, the military wing is the Qassam Brigades. And when saying the 'government of Gaza' it is clear that we are talking about the political wing. But this really doesnt belong here, you want to argue the point you should do it on the article talk. Nableezy (talk) 15:17, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of "the government" is not the same as speaking of the movement as a whole and your earlier statement was speaking of "Hamas", rather than the Hamas political wing, saying that "Hamas is only a political party". I'm well aware of the nuances here so I request of you to avoid continued misrepresentation of this issue.

Cordially, Jaakobou 15:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

If you are going to say I said something actually provide a diff where I said it. What I said in that diff was "there is no misrepresentation that Hamas is only a political party." Please stop misrepresenting what I said. Nableezy (talk) 17:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

'Militant organization', 'military wing', 'militia,' all have different connotations, and often the POV of the writer is shown by the language chosen. That Hamas's military members are described as a 'militia' is commonplace, a militia exactly in the sense you had militias in the American Revolution as opposed to unlawful militant groups like the Vigilantes.

• (I)Abbas went he issued a decree against Hamas, declaring that the Executive Force and Hamas armed groups were illegal. It was translated by neutral sources as cracking down on illegal Hamas militias, on Hamas which 'unlawfully used its militia to seize control of government institutions’ Fred Abrahams, Internal fight: Palestinian abuses in Gaza and the West Bank, Human Rights Watch (Organization) Human Rights Watch, 2008 p.15

• (2)‘By the summer of 2006, tensions between Israel and the Hamas militia in the Gaza Strip were spiralling out of control’ (b) ‘On June 25, 2006, units of the Hamas militia attacked an Israeli patrol on the outskirts of Gaza’ . . Dan Tschirgi, Turning point: the Arab world's marginalization and international security after 9/11, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2007 p.166, p.167

• (3)‘Hamas may well be able to transform its militia into a government-sponsored security force in order to facilitate access to weapons and funds and eventually its expansion. A stronger militia may bring about a greater assertiveness on the part of Hamas, particularly in Gaza,’ Efraim Inbar, Israel's National Security: Issues and Challenges Since the Yom Kippur War, Routledge, 2008 pp.192-3

• (4)‘Retaliatory air-strikes on Gaza by the Israeli security forces killed at least 60 Palestinians, most of them militia. President Abbas dissolved the NUG in the wake of the take-over of Gaza by Hamas militias.’ Lord Grenfell, Lord Roper/ Great Britain Parliament House of Lords European Union Committee, The EU and the Middle East Peace process: 26th report of session 2006-07, Vol. 1: Report House of Lords, Great Britain: Parliament,, The Stationery Office, London 2007 p.12

'Militant' is a POV term in English, whereas 'military wing' and 'militia' are not. Nishidani (talk) 16:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The distinction between 'militant' (refractive to legel control or authority) and 'militia', an armed group subject to lawful or paralegal authority is well maintained in the three articles on the Irgun, the Stern Gang and the Haganah in wiki. I.e.

• (1)The new movement was named Irgun Tsvai Leumi, ("National Military Organization") in order to emphasize its active nature in contrast to the Haganah. Moreover, the organization was founded with the desire to become a true military organization and not just a militia as the Haganah was at the time.' Irgun

• (1.b) the most militant elements of the Haganah splintered off and formed the Irgun Tsva'i-Leumi (National Military Organization), better known as "Irgun" (or by its Hebrew acronym, pronounced "Etzel"). Haganah

• (2.)In Lehi 'militia' is never used, but 'militant' is, twice.

• (3) It also acquired foreign arms and began to develop workshops to create hand grenades and simple military equipment, transforming from an untrained militia to a capable underground army.Haganah

• (3.b) Many Haganah fighters objected to the official policy of havlagah (restraint) that Jewish political leaders (who had become increasingly controlling of the Haganah) had imposed on the militia. HaganahNishidani (talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

In short, in remarking 'Anyone who has a "militia" is technically a "militant organization" regardless if they have a "political wing" or not,' Jaakobou is implying that when the Haganah articles reads:'the Jewish leadership created the Haganah to protect their farms and Kibbutzim,' the Jewish Agency and other bodies governing Jewish interests in Palestine, having formed what that page calls a 'militia', ipso facto, by having a militia became a militant organization. I don't think the Jewish Agency (political wing) was a militant organization because it had a militia. I do not think Hamas can be called a militant organization (and nothing more) because it has a militia. Hamas is here defined primarily as a militant body, with a political wing, whereas the Jewish Agency is defined as a political body with a military wing. Hamas was duly elected. The Jewish Agency was not duly elected by a plebiscite. Therefore, for coherence over pages, one should not use discriminatory language for similar situations.

It's called analogical thinking, using the same parameters for similar circumstances in order to weed out weaseled-in semantic POVs.Nishidani (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sickest man. Nableezy (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

On a related terminological issue, when Michel Warschawski was on trial in Jerusalem for "providing services to a forbidden organisation", the prosecution cited as part of their case articles in which Warschawski's group the Revolutionary Communist League described itself (in Hebrew, but using the English term) as "a militant organisation". The prosecutor translated this as "a military organisation", and several houts of court time were devoted to clarifying the disticnction between the two terms. RolandR (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar from the barnowl

		The Barnstar of Good Humor
		Pinned on a new Sherif riding shotgun on the wilder side of wiki, who exemplifies a spirit of, for want of a better term, we must now call imperturbable Nableez’oblige, and whom we can and should all learn from, esp.the undersigned blowhard from the troubled panhandle (s)he patrols Nishidani (talk) 18:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

3rr

Nab, I haven't thoroughly analyzed the diffs at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict but you're either very close to or already over 3rr. Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

edit warring

Please do not continue an edit war on article 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. As you've been warned before, this is your final warning and continuance will end up with you being blocked from editing to prevent disruption to Misplaced Pages. Essentially at this point you should be using a personal 1RR rule except for blatant vandalism. Disputes should be handled via the talk pages to hash out the issues and to establish a consensus. If that doesn't work you may wish to consider Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution guidance. Cheers, Nja 05:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

all right, fair enough, Nableezy (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Won't happen, I will tag team with nableezy from now on to ensure he doesn't get a 3rr violation ever again. Yeah, I am just kidding, but it is happening with other users (who are reverting Nableezy), look at the history. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 05:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

its all good, the problem though is that it is impossible to seemingly hash out issues on the talk page. Users just dismiss whatever has had wide consensus, and DR doesnt really work because nobody wants to get involved in this area of editing. I think we have made a half-way decent account of the events of that page, I think now its time to watch and see how long it takes to get turned to shit (there are definitely shitty parts in the article now in need of quite a bit of work). Im going back to Egypt for a couple weeks in a bit, and I will be interested in what that page will look like when I get back. Nableezy (talk) 06:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I have been watching some of the discussions... I am not sure how you are supposed to reach consensus with certain users who make nonsensical assertions. Don't give up on the page, you're one of the very few sensible editors there. Though having you gone for a couple of weeks is a bit worrisome, but you know there is Internet access in Egypt. :} If you choose not to connect while in Egypt, it is okay, you deserve to enjoy a break. Have fun in Egypt! ---Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure how either, and I did in fact know Egypt has internet (they also had 3G across the country before the US), but if I do find myself in front of a computer while I am there, and it might happen, I guarantee you wikipedia will not be on the list of things to check. If anything at all it will be to check on some sports scores (especially if the Bulls can pull off the current series win) Nableezy (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I might get involved in that article while you are gone, but to be honest I usually avoid those areas in Misplaced Pages. We'll see though. As for the Bulls, I hope they get the Celtics out of the way, but I'm sure our Magic will take them or anybody else out in the conference finals! I forgot you were a basketball fan. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I wouldnt if I were you, it really is too much drama, too many petty fights over nonsense. Tonights game has me pissed. But if we can get through this series, I aint scared of the Magic. Nableezy (talk) 02:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Yea I know, but if things get out of hand, I'll feel obligated to get involved. Right now the article is in a much better state than before—hopefully it gets even better or at least maintains its current quality. I was disappointed too, and I got to admit... the Celtic-Bulls games have been more of a treat to watch so far than the Magic-Sixers games (we should've wiped em out by now). Anyway, great job with your al-Azhar Mosque draft. It could be a future Good article if you go for it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but it still has a lot of work. I had gone through one of the sources making notes and my computer crashed, causing me to lose about half of the notes. I havent gone through that one again, and there are 3 other sources that have a lot to cover I havent gone through yet either. I dont think this will be done by the time I go, when I get back plan to work on it some more. But once that is done the university article is going to need a bit of work as well. So much to do, Nableezy (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You're leaving us for a few weeks!? Boo. Do me a favor please while you're there. According to my family lore, an ancestor of mine left his toothbrush in Egypt when he had to leave in a hurry. If you happen across it please bring it back to the States. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ill get on that. But look at all the trouble you caused with your warning, your penance is watchlisting the White Sox article while I am away, I am sick of these punk ass cub fans making it say White Sux. It wouldnt bother me as much if they had won something in the past hundred years, but really, them talking shit now is getting annoying. Nableezy (talk) 02:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I always wondered who in the hell are Chisox fans. You're the first person I've ever met from Chicago that's not a Cubs fan. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, this is a sick number. You should find out if it's a WP record.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The thing with the fan distribution is most of the richer areas in the city and damn near all the suburbs are cub fans. You go to the south or west sides of the city, get shot wearing them cubbie colors tho. I wonder if that link makes me more of a patient, good editor, or an irredeemable troll. Nableezy (talk) 03:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A little of both ;-). I'm like 1,700 behind you but you've left everyone in the dust. On the article page you're with the rest of the pack (thanks to the 3rr rule ;-)). --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know

And I'm glad someone has finally done something about instead of us all collectively kvetching at my talk page. :) Anyway, I think an admin will probably tell you to take to WP:AE. I'd like to hear from one of them first before jumping in to add stuff about his edit-warring as well, for which he was clearly warned by Elonka under ARBPIA on his talk page and which he continued to do at Ramot over the last two days. While I noted it in the Arbcomm, nothing is being done about these things and its gets pathetic really. Thanks for being so proactive once again. Tiamut 19:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Issues with NoCal

Hi. I see that you are having some issues with NoCal. They're of absolutely no concern to me but at the moment seem to be potentially pouring over into the Corrib Gas articles. I've been trying to work through some of the issuse on these articles with LP. This topic has seen a lot of conflict recently and could do without anymore. I've already asked NoCal to excercise care if editing these articles. I'd just like to do similar here and ask you to try and keep any conflict away from the corrib gas articles. I see you've brought up these issues at the administrators noticeboard, best of luck with it. GainLine ♠♥ 21:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I dont know anything about the content of those articles, so I never planned on editing them. My only 'issue' with NoCal is his general behavior. I have no idea whether LP is right or wrong on his edits, and honestly am not interested enough to look for an answer. NoCal may have issues with me, but I dont have any with him, so long as he stops hounding other users who have disagreed with him on other articles. But no worries, you wont be seeing me at those articles. Nableezy (talk) 21:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean it to come across that way, I've no right to ask you to not edit articles and wouldn't make any such request. I just don't want any events occuring that would cause LP or NoCal to start editing/counter editing aggressively on these articles. GainLine ♠♥ 21:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Dont worry about it, it did not come across that way. Just letting you know that I have next to no knowledge on that topic so I wouldnt edit the article. Best of luck resolving your disputes with those articles, Nableezy (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks man, happy editing! GainLine ♠♥ 21:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

hello

I find it it unfortunate that an I/P involved editor Avi has tried to stop the discussion about NoCal here, However, Black Kite just turned up and asked for clear diffs of wikihounding. I´m logging out here (it´s late in my part of the world), but you might help Black Kite? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

ANI

Hello, Nableezy. Thank you for the kind words. What you say is actually partially my point. Nobody here really did anything WRONG. DefendEachOther in general is a good thing, just as is trying to balance an article. However, in this situation we have two groups of people who editing in one of the most emotionally and politically charged areas in wikipedia, EACH one believing the other is violating rules, EACH one thinking that there is an off-wiki conspiracy by the other group, EACH one thinking all the other is trying to do is push a propagandist point of view, EACH one so burnt by wiki-zealots from the other side that all assumptions are of bad faith. For every complaint that the pro-Israeli editors have about the pro-Palestinian ones, the same complaint is had back. Hasbara vs. Yahoo! groups; blocks applied or lifted; article reverts; etc. There are editors who each side fels do what they can to paint the other side in the worst possible light skirting the boundaries of UNDUE and NPOV. I'm sure you can think of many pro-Israeli editors who you feel try and paint Palestinians poorly, and they likely think the same of you. The frustration that you and Tiamut feel, as much as you may not like to believe it, is felt by others on the Israeli side. Also, unfortunately, it takes much more effort, fortitude, and the ability to compromise to work together than it does to work apart, which is why so many of these articles become battlegrounds. So, in a nutshell, I don't think you did anything wrong, but what the entire situation needs is less DefendEachOther and more RespectEachOther and WorkWithEachOther. Thanks for listening to my half-baked rant, and please always feel free to drop me a line when you disagree with or do not understand what I have said or done. :) -- Avi (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Have a safe and successful trip. -- Avi (talk) 04:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Ma'asalama

I know you said that you won't be editing Misplaced Pages while you are in Egypt, but I will be checking the IPs on 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict for any Egypt-based ones to see if you really keep your word. :] Stay safe and have a wonderful time, ma'asalama. -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 05:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Welcome Back!

You just flashed across my watchlist. The toothbrush................?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

sorry, no luck. Though I was in a city that had been established long after the case of the misplaced toothbrush went cold. Spent a bit in Alexandria, but no time to hunt for such treasures. Nableezy (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

That was a quick vacation. welcome back! -Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, though I am pretty pissed that Tiamut seems to have been pushed to leave as a result of the nonsense that one encounters here. Dont think Ill be as active as before, but I do want to finish up an article I had been working on. Nableezy (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Well dude, this BS that goes on in here does not compare to the crappy situation I am dealing with in RL. These folks in here, they feel as if is them against the world, and our attitudes and passion won't rival theirs because we are not the fanatics. In due time, your suspicion that all will go to hell when it comes to I/P articles in Wiki, will come to be, and we will have to score it as a Mossad victory. I really believe that, something else other than the holocaust-prevention unit, is at work on these pages because someone would have to pay me to take the position that some take in here. Anyways, you and others know this bleh blah mebleh. I would love to provide the stick while others provide the carrots on these articles and whatnot, but I would only be happy with a topic ban for my work and not a general ban, and within a couple of weeks i'm sure the hammer would strike me rather in places I did not wished for. So blah bleh mebleh, but do have to say i respect you as an editor and i'm pretty i'll be delighted to have a few Heinies with you someday. I don't wish you, for health reasons, to spend much time on these articles, but I see your work everywhere and Wiki appreciates this. Anyways, welcome back and yayaya, be safe. No goodbyes here really, cause i aint going anywhere. Peace. Cryptonio (talk) 01:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mosque pics

The first one. The second would look better in the article on the city the mosque is located in because it shows more background. Tell me when you want to start work on the article. I've been working a lot on the Ayyubid era spectrum, but for Gamal I will make time. Welcome back by the way! --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)