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Request for clarification: Motion on Macedonia 2

Statement by Avg

Since the relevant page has not been initiated yet, I put my request here and I kindly ask the clerks to move or refactor if necessary. I would like to ask the Committee if the injunction on renaming articles can be expanded in avoiding renaming how the Republic of Macedonia is referred within an article. Please advise if I have to notify any/all parties involved about this request.

Comment to Statement by ChrisO: The proposed motion clearly mandates to revert any rename, so that would obviously include vandalism, in order to return to the status quo ante. Not only it doesn't prevent, but it encourages reverting any user who unilaterally modifies the name, in order to restore the article's current status, pending resolution of the issue in ArbCom. Its purpose is the exact opposite of what you are advocating.

Statement by Man with one red show

This is a good idea, please extend the injunction. Hope this will also make clear that this issue (which was actually the initial issue) will be examined too and will not be let without a clear resolution. man with one red shoe 03:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Question by jd2718

Please clarify: "within an article" or "within the article"? The latter is quite clear, but if the former, could this extension be limited to parties to this arbitration? Jd2718 (talk) 05:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Fut.Perf.

I'm open to such a moratorium, but I ask that if it is enacted, it should be with a clear rule that violations can be reverted. That's because the situation is asymmetrical: most moves to rename, say, an instance of "f.Y.R." to "R.o.M., or an instance of "R.o.M." to plain "M.", have been coming from established users in good standing, who would feel bound by such a rule, whereas renames in the other direction, especially to "FYROM" and variants, come from a shadowy army of hit-and-run single purpose accounts, socks and IPs, who can easily risk a warning or a block. If we couldn't revert those, the wiki-wide situation would be shifted in a matter of few weeks; see the activity registered daily at the abuse log. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Further to the discussion ongoing above, especially Carcharoth: I don't think enforcement is a problem in the sense that you risk having participants blocked by involved admins. Come on, we involved admins may be wiki-suicidal, but we're not that wiki-suicidal. But yes, enforcement is an issue, and I repeat my plea above, when it comes to regulating how reverts to the status quo ante are to be done. If I read Rlevse's motion literally, it would seem that such reverts could be done only by uninvolved admins? That would introduce a huge bureaucratic overhead. Are we going to have to run to ANI for every little piece of everyday semi-vandalism to be cleaned up? Plus, there would also be the issue of where to draw the line between "normal" POV-pushing and true vandalism. For instance, just today I had to revert this: . Now, say what you will, this one I do consider vandalism in the full sense, and there is simply no way on earth I'd accept an injunction that would prevent me from cleaning up this kind. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Statement by Taivo

I agree that a moratorium is good in principle, but completely concur with Future Perfect's assessment that the problems are often one-sided and waged by sock puppets, anonymous IPs, and other hit and run types. As an example, two different anonymous IPs removed a Macedonian alumnus from Staffordshire University within the course of 48 hours. While Staffordshire University would, conceivably, not be included in "Macedonian-related topics", it is indicative of what happens to anything labelled "Macedonia" or "Republic of Macedonia" without provocation, without justification, and without any type of control. We must be able to revert these types of nationalistically motivated hit and run anonymous attacks. (Taivo (talk) 06:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC))

Statement by ChrisO

I concur with the above, but I'd like to ask the arbs for a further clarification - does this motion still permit reversion of the anonymous hit-and-run vandalism that is occurring daily, renaming "Republic of Macedonia" as "FYROM" and its inhabitants as "FYROMians"? If not, a lot of our articles are going to deteroriate badly. -- ChrisO (talk) 06:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(add) This diff is a perfect example of what I am referring to - Greek editors repeatedly deleting any reference of the term "Macedonia" for POV reasons and using the unexpanded acronym FYROM in its place. Note the edit summary. Please also see User talk:Rlevse#Persistent vandalism and disruption for an overview of the problem, which is widespread and fairly intensively ongoing. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Comment In order to reduce the drama, I'd say yes, it includes the term within the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Should this be left as a stand alone request for clarification, or merged somewhere into the main RFAR above? KnightLago (talk) 00:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll leave it here, and move and start a new motion, in effect a sub motion to the first one. Arbs please continue this discussion/voting above. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Why these disputes can't be resolved

This case pretty much serves as a warning to all not to get involved in national disputes. I was relatively peripheral to this case, and no sanctions are being proposed against me. It's still been WikiHell for me. As for those who've been willing to stick these disputes out and argue long-term for neutrality, they're up for sanctions. If this decision goes through, it'll be a giant leap toward making sure no one is willing to take stands against filibusterers under penalty of being sanctioned. The more mild-mannered, non-rouge admins (which I usually am, though this case has pushed that a bit) rarely have the tenacity to stick these sorts of things out, and it appears those are the only kind ArbCom is willing to allow these days. These sanctions here, should they go through, plus the earlier admonishment of Moreschi, are paving the way for POV-pushers. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

No, no, you got it all wrong, they were not POV-pushers, they are people upholding the highest standards of Misplaced Pages and they won't let Misplaced Pages be in error and use the wrong name, they also defended the policies tooth and nail like they didn't have anything dearer in the world than Misplaced Pages's policies, they also know the intricacies of policies and guidelines and made sure nobody makes a mistake in misapplying them, they edit war only because they love Misplaced Pages and its rules, it has nothing to do with the fact that they abhor a specific name of a country ... and it just happened that this was the only subject that interested them on Misplaced Pages... it also happened that involved (OMFG!!!) admins got mad for no good reason on these righteous and good willing people and behaved in a manner improper to admins. They should be punished for disrespecting Misplaced Pages bureaucratic rules that don't allow admins to do the right thing unless their actions are blessed by a chorus of people (who happen to be the same non-POV-pushers that we referred to before, or "uninvolved" admins who couldn't care less of the issue and would say "the best solution is to let things as they are" or ask "what's the consensus, what do these fine, good-willing and unbiased editors say?"). I foresee only good things coming out of this situation. man with one red shoe 05:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The red carpet has been out for POV-pushers for some time, so there's nothing new there. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"plus the earlier admonishment of Moreschi." The "admonishment" of Dbachmann a year before was the sign that the rot had set in. If this is the way things are going to be, then I think we should just create a Caveat lector template to stick on the affected articles, otherwise Misplaced Pages will be operating under false pretences. For example: "This page is owned by a bunch of national chauvinist, ethnic and racial obsessives or subject to uncontrolled feuding between special interest groups. Therefore its contents may bear no relation to the information you will find in standard English-language academic works on the subject. In fact, its contents may bear no relation to objective reality at all. However, we would like to reassure our readers that the authors of this article - despite being tendentious nutjobs - are very, very polite. Thank you." --Folantin (talk) 10:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I would really like to know about what specific articles you suggest the above template. I would also like to know to what specific people does the word "nutjobs" refer to. Could you please spell it out to me? Unless of course you are joking, but I can't tell. Shadowmorph 12:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above. I tried to write a general comment along these lines yesterday evening, but gave up after becoming rather angry at the exasperating ridiculousness of the whole situation. In vast areas of Misplaced Pages, the editing environment is so toxic that few "neutral" people dare to touch them, let alone commit the gargantuan amounts of time & patience that trying to fix them always entails. The result is risible content representig everything from simple bias to 19th-century-stlye approaches, to sheer ignorance & the latests visions of truth of outright nutjobs.

Only a few editors (including some of the ones mentioned or commenting at this very talk page) try to do something about it and deal with the tendentious people fighting ad maiorem gloriam. As a community, we fail utterly at supporting their dedicated, too often unappreciated efforts.

Now the Arbitration Committee has the opportunity to provide some help, and signal that their significant contributions towards Misplaced Pages's stated objectives are valued & appreciated (and partly among the main reasons why some content areas are not much, much worse than their current state). Instead, the proposed decisions indicate that an unrealistic ideal of civility in the face of utter disruption & tendentiousness is of more importance than actual encyclopedic content.

We should be encoraging others to accompany ChrisO's & Fut.Perf,'s efforts, and aim to transform ethnic battlefields into encyclopedic articles. Instead, the proposed decisions clearly indicate that we will be much better off leaving those entries (and whole areas) alone, and editing articles on koalas (at least until someone writes a blog asserting that the true nature of koalas is Macedonian, or Greek or Irish or Polish or Sanskrit or Persian or Martian or -worst of all- Argentinian). - Ev (talk) 19:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You have to be a masochist to edit - let alone administer - these articles. I've had e-mails from experts who are too frustrated or cowed to enter these no-go areas. Let's face it, given the immense expenditure of time and the personal harassment you are likely to suffer, the rewards are not that great. And now there is the added threat of punishment, which mugs are going to want to get involved? The trouble is, Misplaced Pages can't decide whether it's a social-networking site or an encyclopaedia. If it's the former, then civility and behaviour policies come to the fore; if the latter, then reliability of information and ability to edit objectively are the important things. Misplaced Pages's byline is still "The 💕", but I think in the interests of accurate product description we're going to have to change that.--Folantin (talk) 19:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

They're so difficult to resolve because each side is convinced by hundreds, if not thousands, of years of ethnic strife that their version of the truth is being twisted; and that is a very difficult thing to settle, both in real life and with in Wiki. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

We're not here to resolve "real world disputes". Britannica doesn't attempt to do that either. We are here to report on what reliable scholarship says on a given subject. That's why we have policies like reliable sources, no original research and "undue weight". It's quite clear there are editors who attempt to be objective in line with the above policies and those who are merely here to soapbox. We should be encouraging the former and booting off the latter. --Folantin (talk) 20:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Um, this may apply to certain problem areas on the wiki, but I don't see how it applies to the dispute under consideration here. Unless, that is, you think that ChrisO, Fut. Perf., and the other non-Greek, non-Macedonian, non-Bulgarian, non-Slavic editors that have gotten involved here are somehow motivated by "ethnic strife". Your comment seems to imply that both "sides" here have equally valid truth claims, and I don't think the evidence presented at the evidence page even remotely supports that. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I was making a general statement about ethnic wars on wiki, not just this particular case. As for this case, your points are very valid, but for many of the editors, but not all as you point out, the roots of this conflict do go way back in time — Rlevse • Talk • 20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a good point. Rlevse, this isn't a case of two rival ethnic groups (e.g. Koreans versus Japanese) on the wiki - it's a matter of one ethnic group, i.e. the Greeks, trying to impose their own POV on the wiki in rejection of the prevailing standards in the English-speaking world. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"for many of the editors, but not all as you point out, the roots of this conflict do go way back in time." I doubt if this conflict really goes back that far. But ithis is irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is not a battlefield and editors who are so enamoured of The Cause that they can't edit objectively should be shown the door. There are plenty of other forums on the Net if they want a fight. --Folantin (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I really cannot understand all this "fanaticism"... So many are talking about the POV of one side or the other, how the nationalists constantly harass Misplaced Pages etc etc etc, yet just a month ago, there was consensus, in plain English, a situation agreeable to all parties. It seems that ethnic Macedonians and Greeks were both happy with calling the state Republic of Macedonia (its constitutional name, the very name Greeks abhor for it contains the word Macedonia) in all articles except the ones explicitly about their country. There was a disambiguation page leading the user to whichever Macedonia he wanted to look up and the edit wars were limited in the battlefield of history, an issue that is anyway out of the ArbCom's reach here. Users had no problem, nationals of the two states had no problem, neutral parties had no problem and then a supposedly neutral, yet very involved admin, decided to singlehandedly destroy that consensus. Where is the Greek POV here? That there are other Macedonias? Actually I cannot even relate with any ethnic Macedonian POV, since their position (being acknowledged with their constitutional name) had already been accepted by all Greek regular editors for years, despite their nationalist/patriotic/POVed/historical/well sourced/badly sourced objections. Were there editors who disrupted this status quo? Of course there were, as will be after any ruling of the ArbCom, but these were few in number and easily controlled because this consensus was safeguarded by all parties involved. And of course no such editor ever had the power invested to ChrisO to impose his disruption on Misplaced Pages for weeks or months. Instead of talking about this supposedly pre existent problem, this never ending ongoing disruption, first we should judge the status quo ante, determine its problematic points and judge whether we had a functioning consenus, which respected all parties, Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic standards included. If we really believe that calling the country of Macedonia by its constitutional name (against Greek POV) constituted a problem imposed by the Greek editors, then we should strongly propose (since, according to the Pillars we cannot impose) that another name be used... but do we really think so, or is it just the opinion of an involved minority (whether this involvement comes from an ethnic affiliation or a willingness to protect the "weak")? Whatever the ArbCom decides, accusing the Greek POV, because the country of Macedonia was called by its constitutional name (against the Greek POV) kind of sounds absurd... GK1973 (talk) 21:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Gk1973, you conveniently ignore the fact that this dispute did not start at Macedonia and it did not start with ChrisO. It started at Greece with the application of Misplaced Pages policy and eliminating "former Yugoslav" there in order to comply with Misplaced Pages-wide usage. This started with the resistance of Greek editors to the application of Misplaced Pages policy at Greece. (Taivo (talk) 21:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

Did it? As far as I remember the case, this whole situation has to do with some people's crusade to go against consensus and needlessly destroy preexistent consensus. You see Taivo, regardless any Misplaced Pages "policy" you may bring forward, actually the result of a joint effort and consensus between all editors (Greeks included) stated in some essays, consensus remains the ONE, INDISPUTABLE Misplaced Pages policy. Or are you claiming that all this renaming crusade is just a retaliation against Greeks not admitting RoM's constitutional name in the article about their country? And if you admit that your cause has started from the point Greeks did not accept the usage of RoM instead of FYRoM in the article "Greece" then why didn't ChrisO impose his will there? Why don't you just ask from the ArbCom that the acronym FYRoM inside "Greece" be changed to RoM? Sorry Taivo, but this makes absolutely no sense...GK1973 (talk) 22:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, GK1973, there was no consensus about the use of "former Yugoslav" at Greece, there was only a cessation of efforts to change it for a time. WP:MOSMAC was never more than an essay, AFAIK, and even it says that there was no consensus" on the use of terms at Greece. But this discussion isn't really relevant here until ArbCom finishes its work and issues its final decision and remedies. Then we will see what is and what might be. (Taivo (talk) 22:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

To go back to the original question of this section, as long as new Greek editors come to Macedonia with this attitude, there will be the potential for problems throughout Misplaced Pages's Macedonian articles. I hope that after this entire process is finished (the process of determining a fairly solid Misplaced Pages naming policy for Macedonia) that an information block be permanently placed at the top of Talk:Macedonia to preempt these new editors in their zeal to honor the heritage of their motherland. (Taivo (talk) 22:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

As far as I understood the status quo was challenged by the other side, not the pro-Greek. Republic of Macedonia is a legit encyclopedic name (the constitutional name) that is still used throughout Misplaced Pages. Even ethnic Macedonians used the name trivially in their user pages when they could pipelink it any way they liked. One administrator - and I do mean only one - ChrisO, decided to change it and he did. Before ChrisO's move there was no indication that it would be supported. If you look at other people's comments, even Fut.Perf or ChrisO himself, "Republic of Macedonia" was accepted. Then overnight everyone shifted to "Macedonia" being the country as a primary topic against the more populous Greek subregion, the more populous greater region, and the ancient kingdom.

Now if no uninvolved admin is found to take the initiative and move the article back, ChrisO has managed to impose his personal opinion in Misplaced Pages and game the name-chosing system. The penultimate lesson of this is that "not everyone can edit". I guess while everyone tries to find neutral parties or seek a consensus anew the primary topic would still be locked and the page would be where ChrisO decided to put it. Naturally the occurrences of "Republic of Macedonia" would start to be replaced to "Macedonia". In that case the ARBCOM would have made a decision on content by proxy. Nothing in the PD is about the effect of the move. Therefore should the effect be legalized and endorsed, even when the process was against policy?

I am wary of what ChrisO's move will bring to Misplaced Pages from now on. Someone would say, for "simplicity", to make the hat link "for other uses see Macedonian (disambiguation)", just that, no need to explain anything, no need to distinguish (!) After all by the hit statistics, he will say, nobody cares. So why should Misplaced Pages direct anyone elsewhere? And lets delete Macedonia (terminology), since the word Macedonia has a very clear meaning in English ("it's always the country") and the views in that article only represent a fringe minority. Is that the way to proceed? Soon, the admins will be writing the articles themselves and locking them from changes. Just like if they wrote their very own publication. Just like it is done for a month now with the title.

When that happens then it's bye bye Wiki-pedia, hello Sysop-pedia.Shadowmorph 09:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Shadowmorph, the debate on Greece wasn't about that at all, as I had already protected the page when the Macedonia move occurred. The fight was over "Republic of Macedonia" or "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Some editors (mostly Greek) wanted "former Yugoslav" to appear in front of Republic of Macedonia throughout the article, which made the article on Greece different from every other country. The argument was over the (never consensus) opinion that Greece-related articles could use a different format for the name of the country's northern neighbor because of the political nature of the naming debate. It has absolutely nothing to do with ChrisO's later actions, and nothing to do with "Macedonia" versus "Republic of Macedonia". Horologium (talk) 11:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a few things

Of the findings about me, several are factually misleading.

1. "Future Perfect at Sunrise's protected his own version of an article" claims that "the user he reverted" merely "duplicated a banned user's changes". The truth is that he didn't duplicate them, he was that banned user, and very obviously so. All IP edits on the Greek alphabet article on 23 and 29 November, including several that were ostensibly reverting each other (, , , , , , ), were edits by banned user Wikinger (talk · contribs), using various tricks to confuse editors (such as, making his intended change, then adding some vandalism to it from another IP to trigger legitimate editors to revert to his own intended version.) I semi-protected that article after several such attacks in a row, and after two good-faith vandal reverters had inadvertently fallen for the vandal's trick (, ). It has always been my understanding that using admin tools against obvious vandalism and disruption from banned users is legitimate independently of "involved" status. (Semi-protection was especially appropriate here as this is otherwise a very low-traffic article with very little legitimate editing going on.) This particular vandal was known to use elaborate tactics of impersonation and double personas, in ways that could easily fool or confuse "uninvolved" admins (like here, where he was successfully trying to impersonate User:ΚΕΚΡΩΨ), so it was necessary he be dealt with by somebody who thoroughly knew his pattern.
2. "Future Perfect at Sunrise blanking of Macedonians (Greeks)": I didn't "blank" the article, I redirected it. That was, indeed, a legitimate outcome of the preceding AfD. The AfD had seen consensus even among the more experienced editors on the Greek side of this conflict (Yannismarou, Avg) that the article in that form was not useful . It had been correctly closed as "no consensus" because, technically, redirect votes are keep votes, but redirecting was then an appropriate editorial implementation of this outcome. Even independently of any AfDs, redirecting articles is always a normal, legitimate editorial action; citing it as allegedly disruptive behaviour is patently inappropriate. It should also be noted that when a new attempt was made at re-creating the article, I offered the editor my technical admin assistance for doing so , despite my reservations against the content, by performing a cleanup history merge between the two prior versions.
3. I challenge anybody to find legitimate diffs of where I have been "insulting to ethnic groups". That is in fact a very serious, almost defamatory accusation against myself, to which I object in the strongest terms. The FoF cites a few diffs where I am criticising the political system of a country. How that should be construed as an "insult" against an ethnic group is beyond me. Seriously.
4. It is also claimed that I "admitted prior knowledge of ChrisO's intentions to rename the disambiguation page". This is false in several ways. (a) I didn't "admit", I freely "confirmed". The word "admit" implies it was something reproachable, which it wasn't. There was nothing wrong about Chris and me brainstorming a few ideas in an e-mail. (b) The exchange I had with ChrisO wasn't about the title of the dab page but about the country article itself. (c) I didn't know about concrete "intentions" or a "plan" of his. I knew that he had been considering the idea; I did not know that this had thickened into a concrete intention.
5. There is a FoF stressing that I am an "administrator involved in this dispute": Of course I am, but I fail to see how this is a relevant FoF for this case, since there is no indication I used my administrator tools to further my position in this dispute. The FoF cites instances where I am involved in editorial actions in this dispute (well, yes, of course); and it cites one instance of admin action (the Greek alphabet one) which (a) isn't related to this dispute at all (the Greek alphabet has nothing to do with the naming of Macedonia or indeed with any other political dispute), and (b), as pointed out above, constituted legitimate and straightforward protection against a banned user. If the intention is to say that "involvement" should be construed as widely as to cover any action on any article related to Greece or the Balkans in even the remotest way just because I am involved in some other Balkan-related dispute, then that would indeed be shifting the goal posts quite considerably.
6. Also misleading is the FoF about my RFC. (a) the RfC did not "focus on my tendentious editing". A completely baseless and unsubstantiated claim of alleged "tendentious editing" was indeed made during the initial filing of the RfC, but unanimously rejected by the community. If the Arbcom disagrees, I ask them to substantiate its own FoF with evidence to the effect that there was any "tendentious editing" for the RFC to deal with in the first place (although I note Rlevse might want to recuse from that part then, because parts of the preceding content disputes over images were with him and with a wikiproject he is heavily involved in). (b) I did not argue against the addition of a "standard conclusion". There was never a practice of "standard conclusions" of that type. My objection , was against a newly invented form of conclusion that was not covered by policy and traditional practice and which I argued was demeaning and unjustified. This newly invented practice was indeed discontinued afterwards. The closer's comments were also not "left off", as the FoF falsely states, they were merely refactored into a format more in line with previous practice. (c) As for my substantial response to the RfC, or lack of it, it is here and here; I sincerely think nobody can claim I didn't show willingness to engage in constructive response to community concerns here. After that stage, however, the RfC petered out into a tired and worn-out troll fest that was indeed no longer worth reading. (Note that several of the parties who kept adding comments after that stage – Deucalionite (talk · contribs), Walnutjk (talk · contribs), Crossthets (talk · contribs) and כתר (talk · contribs) – were later indef-banned.)

Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Rlevse has now modified some of the findings with regard to myself, but left crucial accusations in. Again, I would like some explanation how a finding that (in my RfC, presumably) I showed "resistance to listening to the concerns of the community" is compatible with this and this, and in what sense Rlevse thinks the RfC was concerned with any "tendentious editing" of mine. Also, now that the Wikinger episode is off the table, where did I "abuse my admin bit"? I also object to seeing two diffs where I am mildly mocking a banned troll (by advising him not to eat too many penguins ) as evidence of being "incivil, intimidating, and insulting" (note that this is the same batshit insane "penguin eater" troll who did , , , .) Finally, I still haven't heard an explanation of what that "FoF" of my redirection of the Macedonians (Greek) article is doing there. If Rlevse thinks it was a disruptive editorial action, would he care to debate the content with me? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to butt in and comment on the first three points. This proposed decision points out a major problem with the arbitration process--namely, at this stage the arbitrators can introduce findings of fact and remedies that are unrelated or tangentially related to the discussion on the evidence and workshop pages, and the only opportunity the parties have to defend themselves against the new material is on the talk page of the proposed decision. Point 1 is a good example--was Greek alphabet discussed anywhere in the evidence or workshop? Does it have anything to do with the Macedonia naming dispute, anyway?

1) Yes indeedy, those IP edits were Wikinger, edit-warring with himself, as edit summaries such as ought to make clear. Some possibly relevant discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive152#Ban_notice:_User:CBMIBM and meta:Meta:Babel/Archives/2008-12#Cross-wiki_hoax.3F_Greek_letter_.22Yot.22. Note the obsession with heta. Characterizing Fut. Perf.'s actions here as "protecting his own version of the article", as if there was a legitimate content dispute with an editor in good standing, is not accurate. If the ArbCom wants to say that it's inappropriate for an admin to use semi-protection against IP socks of a banned user on an article that the admin has edited, fine; but my impression is that it is normal for administrators to use semi-protection (and even protection) against vandalism and IP socking by banned users, even when the admin has edited the article in question. Again, this has nothing to do with what I understood to be the scope of this arbitration, the Macedonia naming dispute.

2) Redirection is, in my experience, a not infrequent outcome of AfD discussions, and a plurality of editors at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Macedonians_(Greeks) argued for stubbing or redirecting. Fut. Perf.'s action was a reasonable interpretation of the AfD. Fut. Perf.'s actions on this article are mentioned twice on the evidence page, and thrice on the workshop page--and it didn't form the basis of any proposals at the workshop.

3) Accusing Fut. Perf. of being insulting to ethnic groups is basically an accusation of racism. The diffs don't back this up. Calling a country a "banana republic with no academic freedom" isn't an insult to an ethnic group, it's an insult to a political entity--especially when Fut. Perf. made it clear in the previous sentences that he was referring to a (proposed?) Bulgarian law regarding transliteration. If I should hear that a government plans to make certain transliterations lawful, and others unlawful, "banana republic" would be one of my milder reactions. It's patently ridiculous, and worthy of sarcasm. The "banana republic" comments were mentioned twice on the evidence page, and twice on the workshop page (never as part of a proposal, only in comments), so why did they get picked up as part of the proposed decision? --Akhilleus (talk) 06:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

A point of comparison: in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology/Proposed decision, some of the findings of fact against myself (which have been very strongly disputed) are based on an apparent principle that it's inappropriate to use admin tools on any article which you've ever edited, even if it's obvious vandalism or abusive editing. I don't think I have to spell out the problems with that principle. As User:Phil Sandifer has said, "WP:UNINVOLVED has never before been taken to mean that anyone who has substantially contributed to an article is forbidden from using any administrative tools on the article, no matter how long since their last contribution. This standard has no basis in policy." -- ChrisO (talk) 08:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Future Perfect called for a specific diff. Here is one from the evidence page "What I said was that your nation (and your wiki community) is collectively obsessed with this particular issue". I think "collectivelly obsessed" is an insult to that nation and its sensitivities. Besides "Banana Republic" about Bulgaria, you know, might not be okay for the people that constitute the population of Bulgaria. "Banana Republic" imho is a direct reference to monkeys, not even as light as an allusion. Maybe that term of his was misunderstood, but who is to blame? Shadowmorph

To blame are those who don't know what a banana republic is and that it has nothing to do with monkeys. BalkanFever 09:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Good grief. Indeed. If that was indeed what somebody understood, I'm speechless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course I know what you meant and what the term is. Still maybe you shouldn't use it since you are an administrator too. When insulting a political entity - a country - you have to respect that citizens of that country might be insulted too. Also what is "obsessions" to one is "patriotism" to another. Shadowmorph 09:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

""Banana Republic" imho is a direct reference to monkeys", Shadowmorph, you don't know what a banana republic is if you think it has anything to do with monkeys. It refers to Central American countries whose main export is bananas and whose governments used to be regularly changed from one petty dictator to another with the monthly coup d'etat. Get your facts straight first, Shadowmorph. "Banana republic" is as far from being an ethnic slur as "seventh-inning stretch" is from being a medical term. (Taivo (talk) 11:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages is no place for "patriotism" either so the point is moot. BalkanFever 11:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I know what it is. Ok, I should have said "might be misunderstood for" instead of "is". I did say that it was misunderstood in the next sentence. Nobody should have to know what the derogatory term is exactly, especially any e.g. Bulgarian that has less knowledge of the English language.

"Monkey business" is used side by side by that terminology. Monkey Business Befitting a Banana Republic Banana republic / Monkey business in the IDF.

"Banana Republic" was recently used against Obama's view of America. Many were confused whether the term was racist. They thought of the connection I adressed, here, so think of my comment as referring to what that confused persons would think. Other places with the same discussions: here and "Is it racist to use the term 'banana republic' when referring to Obama's socialist views?". Again I didn't invent the connection to monkeys. You know what, I'm tired of defending my rationality because I noted that others could think of that term in that way...

Misplaced Pages is no place to insult countries either. There is no reason to scandalize the patriotism dormant in any editor with using weird terms and repeating them over and over again. No reason at all. All I can say is that Future must have seen too much frustration during his time here to not be able to restrain himself in his expressions now. Shadowmorph 11:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding expressions, there is also this illustrative bit. It could also connect with point 3 above, considering other writings in the Workshop and elsewhere. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 12:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2, that's not what he said, that is your interpretation of what he said. man with one red shoe 13:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's my interpretation. That's life: we all have our interpretations, but we don't decide upon them. :) SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

OMG he said: "What I said was that your nation (and your wiki community) is collectively obsessed with this particular issue" what's so bad about that when even your people admit that more than 95% of the Greeks has a specific opinion about the name of the neighbor? Do you find any similar rate in any other country except Greece and Macedonia? man with one red shoe 13:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

General agreement if any is different from "a collectively obsessed nation". Shadowmorph 13:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Semantics... and an external observer is better positioned to call an obsession than an internal one. In the big scheme of things, people dying of hunger and so on (or other Wiki material that needs to be improved) being too preoccupied with a name of a country is an obsession, you can agree to disagree and dislike Fut. Perf. and my opinions, but making out of this a malicious and punishment deserving opinion is plain Wikilawyering... man with one red shoe 13:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) - I do know some other cases, just one example: the United States about war: "When the invasion began in October 2001, polls indicated that about 88% of Americans...backed military action in Afghanistan". Compare that to the international public opinion at the time. Anyhow, I wouldn't call that agreement an obsession and it did shift later on. Initially 90% of Greeks opposed any use of the word Macedonia by that country, now they don't. Shadowmorph 13:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

This, what happened there, this... in the grand scheme of things. Shadowmorph 13:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You can link to these directly. Can't get more direct and official than that. Unfortunately, some people don't see the big picture, because the region they live in is not affected (now, what about Greater Mexico....). And it's not even a question of power, as one paramilitary attack by a small group, could unleash the ugly beast. Typical in Balkans. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 00:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me for butting in...and I'm not sure where to post this. I am truly a klutz when it comes to wikipedia. However...I have watched the pages involved here for years and have come back to find this arbitration. As an outsider, I can not believe that any of this is happening. The pages related to Macedonia, any Macedonia are full of nationalist POV pushing that would put off anyone (not emotionally or nationalistically involved) even considering participating. My hats off the FPaS and any other editor who has managed to not walk away in disgust and frustration. I saw the "banana republic" comment as it happened and understood the incredible frustration that comes after years of trying to hold back the extreme POV pushing. My forehead would be bloody from banging it on the keyboard. Others I know feel the same way.

I had thought about finally learning how to navigate wiki in order to do some editing in the field I have some helpful knowledge in (as well as the library to back it up), but always hesitated because I didn't want to get drawn into the morass of modern politics forcing itself into a 2000 plus year old history ( my area of interest). There is a reason why, on many general interest forums, the entire modern subject is banned. It interferes with actual discussion and learning. When[REDACTED] is mentioned as a source I always tell people to read the talk pages first, so they can see just how skewed the actual article may be. That is tragic. There is a reason why[REDACTED] isn't considered a reliable source of information. And sadly, if good faith editors and admins give up or are removed, then there will be even less reason to do so.

There is consensus and then there is being overwhelmed by the POV of ONE government's policy and those who seek to push that view against the international and English consensus. It's screamingly obvious to "outsiders' with any knowledge of the situation. As for the use of FYROM and Skopje, well again, obvious. And a final "outsider" remark...as time has gone on "Macedonia" has come to mean the country to those in the English speaking world. I know it's hard to fathom for some, but outside of the Balkans and outside of academia, Macedonia the region in Greece or Macedon ( what the ancient kingdom was called in my American university studies) do not register as much as it does to those involved.

Again, forgive the possibly incorrectly placed comment. But I had to speak up. gingervladGingervlad (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. Nicely put, Gingervlad. Kafka Liz (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, talk pages are very helpful. It's a wiki-pedia and this is the real world. Not just black and white, but with many shades of grey. Many sides of a story. Highly recommended: Kurosawa's Rashomon. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 00:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Gingervlad, "Macedonia" has many meanings in the English language as does in the Greek or in any Slavic idiom. Nevertheless, I think that you have not followed this situation from the beginning. You say "There is consensus and then there is being overwhelmed by the POV of ONE government's policy and those who seek to push that view against the international and English consensus." Yes..there WAS consensus, but this consensus was not for the country to be called plainly "Macedonia" but "Republic of Macedonia". This was the consensus achieved and upheld for so many years. There was also a disambiguation page leading to all possible Macedonias, which ChrisO removed. You see, it was not the Greek POV that disturbed the consensus in Misplaced Pages but rather the actions of very involved people who declare themselves "sick of" the Greek attitude, as though they are some self appointed champions of the one and only truth... Misplaced Pages is supposed to work on consensus, because the "truth" is a very difficult thing to determine, especially when subjective, yet very strong, arguments (most uninvolved users usually ignore and most involved users choose to ignore according to their best interests) come in. This is why this whole issue is here. Because the ArbCom has to decide how Misplaced Pages will function from now on. Should it rule that disambiguation pages are not needed anymore or that established consensus (especially regarding sensitive articles, which although unimportant to the average American user, seem to matter a lot to large communities like the Greeks, the ethnic Macedonians, the Chinese or the Irish...) is weaker than the statistical skills of an admin, then we will have to abide by its ruling should we choose to continue to be members of the Wikipedian community. Such situations are abundant in Wiki and this ruling will affect them all. Yet, chances are that the ArbCom will not decide on the core of this issue but only point us all to some other discussion page to (again) reach a mutual agreement. What is sad? This agreement was achieved and it was not the Greek POV that brought on all this turmoil... GK1973 (talk) 08:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Taivo

Another thing: the "admonishment" for Taivo is patently unnecessary. He made that mistake once, received a friendly note that it's considered inappropriate, and immediately removed the posts, voluntarily and gracefully. Not the slightest indication of there being a pattern in need of an Arbcom intervention here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'm not worried about a "formal" wag of the finger in my direction. I made a mistake and the proposed decision simply says, "Yes, you made a mistake, don't do it again." I'm much more concerned about the excessive penalties being proposed for you and ChrisO. (Taivo (talk) 11:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

I'm not sure it's even correct, once you get an e-mail it belongs to you and you can do whatever you want with it including posting it in a newspaper. While it might not be always "moral right" it's well within the right of the person who receives a letter (e-mail or regular). man with one red shoe 13:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In the ordinary world, you can do whatever you like with an e-mail once you get it, but Misplaced Pages custom and policy is that you don't publish private emails without permission from the sender. This is a principle that's been clearly stated in previous arbitration cases; I can't remember which ones off-hand. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, here's one place to look: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Hkelkar_2#Private_correspondence. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

(E/C) Here's another one: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Durova#Private correspondence. Same principle, different case. Horologium (talk) 13:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like I was wrong, I read a bit about this subject, e-mail is indeed copyrighted, but it is not considered a "secret" either and there are fair use provisions. In any case, he got the "that's bad, don't do it" message and accepted it so it's pretty much end of story. man with one red shoe 18:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Private correspondence is what it is: private. We can't disclose what someone wrote to us in private, if we don't have his/her permission. Although this is not a court, FWIW many countries have legislation regarding this matter. I believe that the correct procedure would be to ask John Carter publicly (since it was related to the case) about his permission; if he refused, then Taivo could ask ArbCom about handling this. If I remember correctly MWORS, you were the one suggesting that e-mails can be forged? Of course, I don't question the validity of Taivo's claims, but I'm expanding my thoughts. As headers can also be forged and IPs easily change, there is no way of determining what really happened. Only when assuming good faith and believe that all parties are honest. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless ArbCom is making up policy out of whole cloth, there is no basis for sanctioning Taivo (solely) for republishing email. There is no community consensus on such a policy as can be seen here (Misplaced Pages:Private_correspondence). And the only place (I know of) where it is talked about in policy, also notes that there is no community consensus (see Misplaced Pages:HARASS#Private_correspondence -in any case, no way this could be construed as harassment by Taivo). R. Baley (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Avg and Kekrops

Isn't there a disparity between the finding of fact that Kekrops and Avg have "disrupted the project through years-long systematic advocacy editing in issues of Greek national disputes" and the remedies banning them only for a period of months? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO you appear also in many findings of fact showing your behavior since 2006 and the topic ban remedies about you are also for a pediod of months. Shadowmorph 09:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

about Macedonians (Greeks)

Macedonians (Greeks) is about a regional group of 2,750,000 people with many living outside Greece, that in addition has to be disambiguated from an ethnic group that self-identifies with the same name. The group is important historically and ethnographically and involved in several wars even before modern Greece. Let me remind that articles about regional groups are not unheard of: e.g. Quebec diaspora (seperate from Canadian) and even going further to linguistic breakdowns of one regional group like French-speaking Quebecer and English-speaking Quebecer. That is done in special cases where disambiguation of various groups is important.

Future Perfect did blank the article and left a redirect to something related. Misplaced Pages:Blank says not to have blank articles. Before that, in the dab page of Macedonia he had said "Include |Macedonians (Greeks)| only if and when it is a stand-alone article". Then he went on and deleted the content of that article himself. The effect would be the ethnic Macedonians becoming the single reference about any modern peoples called "Macedonian" in the dab page. He thought the article was worthless (not specifying if he was referring only to 'the content' or the notability of the 'subject'). He had disagreements over whether the article has "legitimacy" Misplaced Pages:Blank also states "Rather than blanking an article, fix it!, or use the deletion process". It is apparent that Future Perfect as an editor was not interested in fixing it and as an administrator he wasn't helpful in allowing others to do that. Blanking the whole content without having prepared a better draft is not a constructive editorial action and it is not an uninvolved administrative action either.

I have to say that he did abstain after I have completely rewritten it and helped with technical matters

See the votes from the AfD do your interpratations:

• Keep: 6 votes
• Redirect/Delete : 5 votes (voted for both options)
• Speedy Close: 1

I think my proposal to reduce it to a stub was reasonable, and it had support. Everyone was then engaged in this arbitration. Yet I managed to find the time necessary, from my own personal life to completely rewrite and enrich the article. Shadowmorph 08:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"I have to say that he did abstain after I have completely rewritten it and helped with technical matters", Shadowmorph, it sounds like Future Perfect's action in blanking the article was the appropriate action to engage your own creativity and research skills so that the end result was better than what existed before. And it sounds like Future Perfect helped you to complete that project. For that you think the proposed excessive punishment is justified? (Taivo (talk) 11:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

That is about my evidence, there are more about his behavior to justify a punishment.

I see it differently, I didn't ask to do the article under stress, there should be no WP:deadline. I don't think sparking anyone's creativity was the reason to blank, it wasn't apparent since when he merged the same article previously. I think he might have thought that nobody would bother fixing the article since even the Greek side didn't bother. For the record he didn't help with the article before, only after my work and only with the technical part of article history merging. He did edit the article only once since. Shadowmorph 12:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Remedies 3.3.13 and 3.3.14

While Nick ts (talk · contribs) has contributed no useful edits, and has been blocked twice for edit-warring (N.B.–his first block was from me), I would think that it is inappropriate to admonish him by name when he is not a party to the arbitration case. FWIW, he has not returned since his second block, although his editing history has been spotty at best. Horologium (talk) 10:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The same is true of Alfadog777 (talk · contribs), although his block log is clean and he has contributed to this arbitration proceeding. Editors not listed as parties to an arbitration should not be subject to remedies that identify them specifically. Horologium (talk) 10:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Without Chris O and FPaS what would these pages look like?

While there are others who've tried to deal with some of the problem, it's a fair bet that without these two admins, WP would be full of "FYROM" and "Former Yugoslav Republic..." but worse, "Skopjans," "Fyromanians," etc etc. But where in the proposed decision is the recognition of the contribution these two have made to this area? And where is the recognition that, without them, this part of WP would be significantly worse, reflect a hard-line nationalist agenda, etc, etc? Jd2718 (talk) 10:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am sure that from the thousands of the other admins someones will fill in the role of the admin that reverts the POVs. Shadowmorph 11:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Tut, tut, no need to resort to sarcasm. It would be an interesting experiment to see a couple of members of ArbCom (in their everyday capacity as admins) take over from Future and Chris for a while and see what happens to the articles. Of course, if these Arbs got frustrated and were the least bit "uncivil" or "rouge" then they would be subject to the same sanctions as any ordinary admin.--Folantin (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Been there several times, Ireland and Sri Lanka ethnic wars for example. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm reassured to know you'll be stepping in here then since you plan to desysop two of our best admins.--Folantin (talk) 11:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I know *I* won't be venturing into this area again. This whole experience has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Horologium (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hear hear. Part of the problem with ArbCom is that, almost inevitably, few of them have ever wandered into the territory of national disputes, because those who do inevitably make enough enemies to have no chance to ever win an ArbCom election. The closest we've seen is Jayvdb, who managed to have a fair ethnic bloc oppose him not because he got involved in a dispute, but simply because he enforced some AC remedies in a national dispute-related case. Thus we have a crowd with no understanding of the way things work in these disputes arbitrating them, and this case is quickly shaping up to be one of the prime examples of how that goes wrong. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 11:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not so sure. It is a painful exercise dealing with swarms of editors motivated by national pride rather than an interest in producing an encyclopedia. I think there are instances of problems with how both admins operated, but who would be willing to step in? So far I don't believe anyone has shown the slightest interest. In another area of WP, an uninvolved and unknowledgable admin tried, with poor results. Alternatives... ? Jd2718 (talk) 11:25, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The other alternative is to delete every article about Macedonia or Greece. No articles = no vandalism. BalkanFever 11:39, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Losing these two admins from this area would be a very difficult blow to recover from. AFAIK, I have seen four very actively involved admins in this dispute (Horologium was not as actively involved as the others)--Future Perfect, ChrisO, Yannismarou, and John Carter. Two have aligned on each side of the dispute. Do I need to point out that the proposed "remedy" will eliminate the entire population of admins from one side of the issue? That is no remedy or solution, especially when the other two admins are simply having a ceremonial finger wagged at them. While I'm sure that Yannismarou is a fine admin in other areas, at Greece he is hardly neutral. Indeed, in the straw poll conducted at Talk:Greece every other admin voting sided with "Republic of Macedonia" while Yannismarou supported "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Without serious academic Balkan experts like Future Perfect and ChrisO to balance that out, there is a very real danger of POV imbalance. Desysopping these two admins, as proposed in this decision, would be a serious error and would weaken Misplaced Pages in a group of articles that need strong admin oversight from non-resident administrators. (Taivo (talk) 11:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

John Carter wasn't very active in this area prior to the happenings at Talk:Greece. BalkanFever 11:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think John Carter said that he came only recently after Future's call to him in the Talk:Greece situation. John Carter, even after that very recent involvement in the talk pages, he refrained from moving any articles, even though he wanted to.

On the other hand check out how active other admins are in actually editing (not only discussing) those pages.

• Greece

1. El Greco (289 edits)
2. Future Perfect at Sunrise (234 edits)
3. ΚΕΚΡΩΨ (167)

....

60+ Yannismarou (18 edits)

(-) John Carter (0 edits - not in list)

• Republic of Macedonia

1. ChrisO (226 edits)
2. MatriX (149)
3. Telex (120)

...

50+ Yannismarou (20 edits)

(last) John Carter (1 edit)

from http://vs.aka-online.de/cgi-bin/wppagehiststat.pl

Shadowmorph 12:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

• I wonder why Taivo said like Indeed, in the straw poll conducted at Talk:Greece every other admin voting sided with "Republic of Macedonia" while Yannismarou supported "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Are you saying all admins should have done the way that you consider right? The amount of ChrisO and Future's activities on the area is not comparable to those John Carter and Yannis. On the other hand, Shadowmorph's statistics is totally missing vandal-fighting. Anyway I think the proposed remedies on Future are too harsh. I'm very worried.--Caspian blue 13:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify what I meant about Yannismarou's vote. If there were something in policy that was ambiguous or poorly-worded, I would expect a regular distribution of admins voting on both sides of the issue. But when only one admin votes on X side and X side corresponds exactly with the national POV of the country in which he/she resides, then the pattern is noteworthy. Yannis is a good admin, but in issues directly related to Greece I think that his judgment might not be NPOV. I would be surprised if an admin were not influenced by strong POVs of their homeland. To his credit, Yannis never hid that fact. But it also means that there needs to be a neutral admin who takes an active interest in the subject matter to balance out the natural POV of a person in relation to their home. The proposal to remove Future Perfect and ChrisO from their positions as administrators would mean a removal of the neutral, non-resident admins in Greece-related articles. There would no longer be anyone regularly patrolling the abuse logs and reverting nationalistic vandalism in this area. (Taivo (talk) 16:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

Shadowmorph's numbers, while accurate, remove context and are disingenuous to the point of rather audacious sophistry. He pulls two articles and attempts to paint Fut.Perf and ChrisO as overly focused on Greek/Macedonian issues. One of the things that a quick look at the numbers misses is vandal fighting, as Caspian Blue notes. It also ignores the effect of tag-teamming, where there are five or six people pushing their PoV for every one attempting to maintain a neutral PoV. It also ignores the fact that most of the Greek editors who are being sanctioned are essentially single-purpose, with almost all of their edits devoted to Greek and/or Macedonian issues; while they may not have as many edits as Fut.Perf and ChrisO on those two specific articles, they have more edits (and a far greater percentage) on related topics. Horologium (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of your points except on ChrisO's conduct.--Caspian blue 14:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing in there about ChrisO's conduct. Horologium (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant not only your view in this section but also elsewhere.--Caspian blue 15:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The only statement I have made about ChrisO's activities was at AN/I before the arbitration started, when I expressed dismay at the page move (and a related statement on my talk page). I'm pretty sure I haven't said anything else about it; I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about where that page is located. My involvement came about from protecting Greece after edit-warring over the name of the country to its north in the Greece article, my discussion came only on that page, and my contribution to the arbitration does not address the page move. Horologium (talk) 15:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my English does not correctly convey what I wanted to talk about. But this conversation is going toward nitpicking on my short sentence and derailing. I did not only talking about your comment on "the page move" nor ChirsO, but all of your comment and view in the dispute. I have no strong position on the naming of the state too. I'm only interested in knowing why some users and admins have to have relied on wrong DR methods for the dispute. And I found your general view is agreeable.--Caspian blue 16:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The numbers were mostly to defend Yannismarou and John Carter who were called equally heavily involved admins. On the other things Horologium said, I mostly agree. The numbers say nothing about what the edits were about. For what is worth John Carter's single edit there might be to revert vandalism. I didn't want to infer anything else than what the numbers are about: the number of edits, ho much someone has edited those main articles. Anyone is free to check out other articles and other users looking at the articles history rather than just the statistics, I gave the link too. Shadowmorph 16:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

However the same tool shows the percentage of the edits that were marked as minor. Since vandalism reversion is marked as minor we could look at that too. Of course everyone should be judged by the quality of their edits. The fact remains that both of them were more involved than any other admin on a person to person comparison Shadowmorph 16:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a non issue. Once the community decides which will be the prescribed reference for the country in the different areas of Misplaced Pages, a filter can be set up to catch any reference outside the norm. Any edit can be reverted immediately by any admin once caught by the filter and offenders warned (or sanctioned) on the spot. Also I don't think that if the only edits involved were reverting vandalism, we would be in arbcom in the first place.--Avg (talk) 17:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me reiterate, I've been in ethnic wars, as have some of the other arbs. I know the pressures. As for the "academic experts" issue Taivo brought up, that highlights part of the problem. Admins who are highly knowledgeable in an area of articles should really be acting as editors, or as admins, certainly not both. If they act as editors, they will over the long haul, have more influence on the article content (to bring it to NPOV). Strong admin oversight is needed, but knowing as an admin when to step back and avoid becoming involved or avoid losing your cool; when to take a breather, when to say "discuss on the talk page", etc is difficult, but it is the right thing to do. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if this is about me, show me where and when I acted both as an admin and as an editor in illegitimate ways (i.e. where it wasn't dealing with straightforward simple abuse). More generally, I believe the roles indeed cannot be separated that neatly. The whole idea of admins being "uninvolved" is commonly overestimated. You need admins that are more than just civility police and revert counters. You need admins who know the field and care about it. Who know the editors involved, understand their mentalities, can empathise with their ideological preoccupations, and, yes: who like them. Yes, damnit, I like Balkan editors, and I do think the people I deal with know that and appreciate it. Even if I yell at them from time to time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

SQRT5P1D2's views

Regarding "meatpuppetry"

Assuming good faith is a core principle of Misplaced Pages. The term "meatpuppet" is derogatory and should be used only with care. Informing editors absent for holidays, using public friendly notices and not asking them to support any position, is not "canvassing" or "meatpuppetry".

Per WP:CANVASS, the post in question was in the green area. It was one (1) message, the wording is neutral (and I offered an accurate translation immediately, followed by a detailed explanation), other editors may (WP:AGF) have their own opinions on the subject (and as we saw, they do). As for transparency, it is self-evident. If I wanted to hide something, I would post this privately on a massive scale and certainly I wouldn't include my own nickname in the message.

To sum it up: Friendly notice = Limited posting (scale) AND Neutrality (message) AND Nonpartisanship (audience) AND Openness (Transparency). This is the case with my message, although I see how others could misinterpret a (registered) newcomer's actions, due to older parties' influence. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding "SPA"

These are my contributions in the article namespace. I'm registered for less than a month and I was absent for holidays and business affairs for more than two weeks. My involvement in this case left me no time at all, when I was caught up reading policies, arguing with other parties and adding my own bits.

In addition, I restricted myself from editing Macedonia-related articles (except in two instances: one about weasel words, where I left a notice in the talk page and waited for someone to respond and the second about clarifying a derogatory term), while waiting for the case to be resolved. That means something. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Measures against parties

I certainly don't condone actions against policy, but drastic measures against parties, when balancing a decision, could be more harmful than helpful in the long term. Of course, I could always be wrong, thinking in idealistic and/or unrealistic terms, considering the history of the case. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Involvement in future matters

"Uninvolved" doesn't mean "qualified" or "neutral". And I'll leave it to that. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Starting anew

You can't escape the past, especially in connection with discussions about controversial subjects. But nothing prevents you to aim for a fresh start. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Responses to SQRT5P1D2

(This was pulled from the "meatpuppetry" section above to allow SQRT's thoughts to be expressed without interruption. My apologies for interrupting his defense section.)

Posting on a newsgroup is *not* in the green area. It fails three criteria: It's not limited (how many people read that newsgroup? Posting it there is the same as sending a separate e-mail to each of them); it's partisan in nature (based on the participation seen earlier, there is a high degree of correlation with being able to speak Greek and holding particular views on the arbitration subject); and it's not at all transparent (it was done off-wiki, even if you came here and notified the clerks; off-wiki commication is specifically deprecated at Misplaced Pages:CANVASS#Stealth canvassing). Horologium (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Horologium and thank you for your remarks. In WP:CANVASS, the scale of posting defines what is limited, not readership (in any case, the group is small as Usenet is marginal nowadays, especially for greek groups; you can count regular contributors with your two hands). We're talking about one (1) posting. A public posting is not private mass-mailing. Regarding partisanship (and it helps if you read the translated message), nobody can prepossess what is the POV of a current or a prospective editor. That's why WP:AGF exists. Claiming that whoever understands the X language holds certain views about a subject, leads us to a dangerous area. Finally, transparency is defined by openness. There is nothing secret about this message. Nothing "stealth". No behind the scenes actions. Not to mention that in "stealth canvassing", there is the exception of a "significant reason". The case about Macedonia is significant enough. As some people would not see their talk pages, due to Easter holidays, a single public newsgroup posting could be more appropriate, as most mail and newsgroup clients are combined. I should also mention that, when I recently left two (2) notices in other editors' talk pages, others claimed "canvassing" (oh, the irony)! So, if I can't post one (1) message publicly off-wiki and I can't post two (2) messages publicly on-wiki, I really should consider using private means and hide all about it. But I don't think so. I'll stay here and argue about it, abiding by policies and trying to prove that I'm not an elephant. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 12:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So, in your posting to Usenet, you admit you were trying to issue an area-wide announcement for people to come and participate. By your own words, you used Usenet because people wouldn't be reading their talk pages. In other words, you were canvassing, which is issuing an announcement for people to go to specific articles for the purposes of influencing the discussion or voting. (Taivo (talk) 12:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

The "significant reason" in the accusation about the "stealth canvassing" is an exception ("the use of email or other off-wiki communication to notify editors is discouraged unless there is a significant reason for not using talk page notifications"). I clarified it, to avoid more confusion and I thank you for that. About the other bits in your interpretation, my response above stands as is. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 13:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

One posting to a newsgroup, which is an open forum. See Slashdot effect, which is an example of what I'm talking about. The incredible swarm of new and unregistered users that descended on the talk pages shortly after that message was posted leads me to believe that it might not be so lightly read. Additionally, the scale does not equate to Misplaced Pages's talk page posting; even if the post was delivered to only 10 e-mail inboxes (the way that most people participate in newsgroups), that is the equivalent of sending the same message to 10 people on Misplaced Pages, which would absolutely fall under the canvassing prohibitions. That is one of the reasons why the whole off-wiki posting thing is so frowned upon, because it snowballs out of control. And AGF is not a suicide pact, nor is it justification for blindly ignoring the recent past; we had just conducted a straw poll on the talk page for Greece over the name of the country to the north, and every single Greek editor who participated had one view (with support from a handful of non-Greeks), and an assortment of editors from four continents had an opposing view. Stating that is not failure to assume good faith; it's being honest. Horologium (talk) 13:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Horologium, I think we shouldn't be diluting these self-defense sections with too much additional threaded debate. People who are facing sanctions will want their own sections where they can talk to the arbs undisturbed and make their voices heard without having them drowned in debating from their opponents or from the peanut galleries. I am certainly glad I have been able to put in my own side of the story in my own section above without having it interrupted and diluted; let's extend the same courtesy to SQRT too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The peanut galleries bit reminded me of Peanuts and Charlie Brown in the spelling bee contest. There were several instances in this case that we were all a bit like him. Anyway, you're right and I thank you for your comment. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Horologium, no disruption at all. You did good.

Regarding the swarms of new users, I can't take the blame for what others did. Perhaps you missed this: there were several blog and forum posts regarding this matter. Other people took notice of what happened in Macedonia and acted the way they acted. I have nothing to do with that. (But as a humorous note, being frustrated and trying to catch up, I was thinking that the vote in the talk page was still on, while it wasn't and arbitration was already scheduled.) Another example? ChrisO is not responsible for media reporting about what happened in Misplaced Pages, adding their cheers and nationalistic overtones ("Macedonia is ours"). We're not isolated from the rest of the world.

I chose not to participate in Macedonia-related matters until the case is closed. Even today, in a talk page, I tried to explain it to other editors, who were thinking that I pulled off from the discussion without adding references backing my arguments. That's why I didn't follow what happened in Greece. Although I appreciate your honesty, I still believe you're wrong in your assumption ("whoever understands the X language holds certain views about a subject"). This is extremely dangerous. If you open that can, you don't know what will come out. Soon someone will blame religion Y, race Z and so on. You can't avoid it.

Onto your specific example... Why many Greeks hold strong views on these matters? Maybe that's caused by the flood of pseudohistory and propaganda coming from the other side (read this recent letter, signed by 200+ scholars). Maybe they or their relatives live a few kilometres from the northern border and when they see the prime minister of the neighbouring country bowing to an irredentist map, they don't feel safe at all. As english Misplaced Pages is not an english POV encyclopedia, national and cultural sensitivities inevitably fall into the equation. Especially if there is no clearly defined primary topic (region for thousands of years, multi-ethnic country for sixteen years).

Concluding, I'm not worried at all about an admonishment - and not out of disrespect. I'm more worried about children brainwashed by propaganda, learning to hate the others across the border. In any case, I believe that if someone examines closely the facts for the accusations against me, he/she'll understand that they're unjustified. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 20:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Missing ARBMAC FoF

ARBMAC (the original), with its remedies and an assessment of the results. Note, the enforcement page looks substantial. Also note, Avg was sanctioned once, Kekrops twice under ARBMAC. Jd2718 (talk) 11:43, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Concerning 1RR

The tag-team effect cannot be overstated in dealing with vandalism and POV editing in these articles. Note this edit where a (presumably) Greek editor changed "Macedonians", which is unambiguous in this context, to "Macedonian Slavs". I reverted it with a note that it was not ambiguous in context. Another (self-identified) Greek editor then immediately changed it to "Macedonians (ethnic group)" here. I edited it back to "Macedonians" and added a comment on the Talk page here. There is a clear potential problem here in that Greek editors who want to push their POV seem to clearly outnumber other editors. Tag team changes combined with 1RR can lead to problems very quickly. (Taivo (talk) 16:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

The proposal also practically conflicts with the one on "Stalemate resolution", which envisages binding enforceable decisions. That proposal as worded now would allow only uninvolved administrators to enforce implementation of the decision, i.e. to make the necessary reverts. But if, as here, an enforceable decision may affect many dozens of articles, and disruption to the decided outcome is likely to come from many IPs or occasional drive-by accounts, then this would mean that editors watching the implementation of the decision would have to run to the admins to ask for assistance on every such occasion. That is impractical. Cases for which a binding "stalemate resolution" has been found should be exempted from the 1R rule. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Good points, added stalemate and gaming provisos. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:08, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"Efforts to GAME the system by tactics such as tag-team reverting may be reverted without penalty" is still impractical. If you leave it to editors of team A to decide whether editors of team B have been making "efforts to game the system", and thus to absolve themselves from 1RR, you're opening more than a can of worms. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Request

Remedy 6 appears to be merely a proposal. Would you be willing to consider changing the wording of the proposed remedy, or add a new remedy, stating definitively that something will be done to resolve this dispute? Perhaps something along the lines of

Upon the conclusion of this case, interested editors will find three neutral administrators who will then review the case and issue a binding decision on how the country officially named "Republic of Macedonia" will be referred to on the English Misplaced Pages. These administrators will be encouraged to review the evidence related to the naming dispute given in this Request for Arbitration, and will be free to apply the relevant policies in the manner that they deem to be most correct. If after a period of 14 days, the involved editors cannot agree on which administrators should be chosen to review the issue, the Arbitration Committee will appoint the three administrators.

I know this will probably be looked at as a drastic measure, but this dispute has been going on for more than three-fourths of Misplaced Pages's entire existence. There is absolutely no way that anything other than binding arbitration of this sort will end the issue. I would be willing to watchlist related articles and keep an eye on them, but unless I have something I can point people to and say, "This is how it is", I don't think there is much I would be able to do in order to attempt to stop the endless bickering. J.delanoy_adds 17:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, otherwise this would drag forever and there will be ceaseless edit wars (although I can foresee edit wars from anon IP regardless of the result) man with one red shoe 17:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. This is potentially the most important thing that will come out of this arbitration--a clear and unambiguous process to establish a clear and unambiguous Misplaced Pages policy concerning Macedonia's name within Misplaced Pages. (Taivo (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC))

We discussed something similar but the problem would be the policy that arbcom not mandate policy decisions, which is why the remedy is written the way it is. How much support is there for working akin to what j.delanoy suggested? The parties could also agree to this time limit themselves. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think J.delanoy's proposal has a lot of merit. This issue can't be resolved though a process that is subject to filibusters or wikilawyering; it'd be much better if a small number of neutral, uninvolved parties can review the arguments and evidence and make a binding decision. I would suggest doing it as a centralized discussion. The format would obviously need to be decided in advance - perhaps re-using the arbitration format (evidence, workshop, proposed decision) might work? Finally, there is the question of who would participate. I know you've proposed topic-banning myself and FP, but we are both unusually well-placed to contribute to the process. We've both gathered a very large amount of policy and usage information in WP:MOSMAC2 - I just added a mass of new data yesterday at Carcharoth's request. In addition, I literally wrote the policy on this issue; the lines you quoted in your FoFs from WP:NPOV and WP:NC are ones that I wrote. Would you be willing to make a pragmatic exception to your proposed topic ban for the sole purpose of allowing one or both of us to contribute to this process? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I also think there is a lot of merit to J.Delanoy and ChriO's idea. To keep within the Wiki model and the remit of Arbcom, we need to be wary Arbcom deciding content. I'd give due consideration to ChrisO and FPAS working on these ideas if it came to fruition. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

"...the community should designate a neutral uninvolved administrator, or group of administrators, agreeable to all sides of the dispute, which should review the situation and resolve it by applying Misplaced Pages policy. All sides should faithfully adhere to this decision." Isn't the ArbCom a neutral, uninvolved group of admins, agreeable to all sides of the dispute? As a general rule it might be more convenient to not constantly harass the ArbCom with these issues, but since ArbCom IS involved, why not produce a ruling that all parties in this dispute should accept and abide by? I reckon we are all educated adults with a sincere willingness to improve Misplaced Pages and put aside our pride or self acknowledged expertise in matters such as this. ArbCom is perfectly able to reach a decision regarding the way different Macedonias will be addressed in Misplaced Pages and rule a more esteemed guideline than any personal essay issued before. Of course there will be voices against any ruling, of course there will be those who will continually replace any agreed use of the term with arguments that will range from pure babbling to long, well-sourced essays, but if we just openly state our trust in ArbCom and commit ourselves to stand by its decision as long as the present day geopolitical situation remains stable, then the decision will be upheld. If, on the other hand, certain parties only accept the ArbCom's ruling when it is agreeable to them, then, let them speak, so we can all decide how to deal with the situation. There was consensus before ChrisO's actions, there will be consensus after the ArbCom's ruling and we are all here to guard it, but in order to achieve this, a guideline from the ArbCom is needed, at least for those admins and users who trust its objectivity and good faith. GK1973 (talk) 21:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom doesn't rule on content issues, by tradition - that's not within its remit. I think it's also inaccurate to suggest that there has ever been consensus on this issue; the discussion on the workshop showed rather clearly that there wasn't and isn't. Hence J.delanoy's proposal. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't care which uninvolved admins take the decision, to speed up the decision I think the admins from ArbCom would do just fine, but I understand if they want to recuse themselves for reasons that pertain to this case (if they don't want to create an impression that this case decision and the decision regarding the name are somehow related) man with one red shoe 21:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

But the request to the ArbCom was not to only judge the involvement of the various users in this dispute. It was also to offer a solution/proposal/guideline. Has this been denied? I agree that it is a very important decision with many possible implications but if ArbCom is not to decide on the content, then why is the article in question locked from further editing? Isn't this an imposed content? Edit warring might have been "prevented" but then a situation is maintained while the admin who imposed it is proposed to be desysoped for imposing it... People, I am really sorry, but if we knew that the ArbCom would not decide on content, then why did we ask for it in the first place? Can somebody point me to the initial statements page to check what we all requested back then? (these are honest questions, since this is my first ArbCom involvement...) GK1973 (talk) 09:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Temporary injunction

Another request. Can we please extend Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia_2#Temporary_injunction in some form until a real solution to the naming dispute is found? I mean, I can't imagine any admin daring to move the page again, but it is much simpler to point irate new users at an active injunction than to have to explain why all Misplaced Pages administrators are trying to suppress The Truth™. J.delanoy_adds 22:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I made a proposal along these lines in the workshop. Further moves without a solution are only going to cause more controversy. It'd be far better to freeze moves for a temporary period - your proposal would envisage a short period, I presume, not more than a few weeks? - and get a solution in place first. I note that the proposed decision doesn't make any judgments about the status quo being right or wrong; that decision should be left until a solution is decided. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate? For so many years no ethnic Macedonian, nor any Greek or neutral editor had any real problem with RoM being the name of the country nor with the disambiguation page. The few editors/IPs etc who worked against this consensus very quickly also consented or disappeared as is usual with various disrupting parachuters. When you say there was no consensus, do you by any chance mean that YOU did not agree with this situation? As for the ArbCom deciding, I just believe that should it reach such a ruling, we will be able to more easily accept and employ it. If it will not, then what is the point? To again start employing the same methods (discussion and editing) you already judged futile when you singlehandedly chose to take it upon yourself to impose a new status quo against every Wikipedian pillar and deny every concerned editor of their right to edit? GK1973 (talk) 22:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Dear J.delanoy, I suspect that there is a chance that the page will again move, should the ArbCom decide that ChrisO's edits were unnecessary or unwanted. But as far as the gist of your proposal is concerned, I definitely agree. Users and editors should know that there is an ongoing arbitration. GK1973 (talk) 22:55, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I don't particularly care if the article is moved by the Arbitration Committee back to Republic of Macedonia or if it remains at its present location. I just want something formally forbidding page moves until something is done to resolve the dispute. J.delanoy_adds 23:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I made the point in the workshop that the name shouldn't be changed for the sake of it unless there was some compelling evidence of harm - our readers should come first. Since there's clear statistical evidence that the move has improved navigation by not forcing people to go through a disambiguation page when the vast majority are looking for the country, I'd say that there's no evidence of harm - quite the opposite in fact. Reverting a beneficial move for the sake of process would actually harm our readers. That's something we should avoid all all costs. (I would of course have no problem with the article being moved if that was agreed in conjunction with resolving the dispute, but it's not something we should do arbitrarily.) -- ChrisO (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

But Chris, while statistics can be used in many ways (I believe that Shadowmorph posted some interesting observations), this is an encyclopedia and there are many factors to take into consideration. For example, when most of the english-speaking world refer to the USA as "America", in America there is a dab page. Isn't it also the "common SEO english name for the lay reader that shouldn't bother with an extra click because the kitty will die" (cue .gif references circa '96)? :) FWIW, I'm working on a proposal for similar situations (not restricted to Macedonia) and if I'm satisfied, I'll post it here. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 23:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Good lord, don't start this again. Post in your own section. I am sick of every minor request turning into a pitched battle. J.delanoy_adds 00:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to perceive the "post in your own section" bit, but I'm sure that since this case is open, requests should be justified and I responded to that. There are many similarities with things running in parallel and we can't have different measures. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we probably can have (slightly) different measures, since both sides have listed examples supporting their arguments (Luxembourg comes to mind). From what I gather, J.delanoy is getting a bit sick of you repeating your points everywhere. Especially when it's in a section regarding the temporary injunction...BalkanFever 11:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no fait accompli. We can also have status quo ante (old accepted NPOV), instead of keeping status quo (new disputed POV) for a controversial move. If ArbCom decides that Chris was right, then we can move it again and take it from there for other articles, America, China, Ireland, Internet (WWW) etc. How's that? Status quo is technically a POV decision. About JD, I said that I was unsure about that bit and I won't prejudge what he wrote. If he feels that he should clarify it, that's fine. Regarding points being repeated, I see everyone repeating his/her points everywhere. Including this section. To this day, I'm unaware of any restrictions in the presentation of counter-arguments. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The case hasn't closed so it's still in effect. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this is understood by everone, but will it remain in effect between the closure of this case and the determination of whatever dispute resolution process will follow? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought of that right after I posted my last comment. I'll post an extension as part of the PD. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Why doesn't the ArbCom revert the article to its prior status quo until the dispute is resolved? It might be mistaken as a sign that involved admins can resort to similar methods in order to impose a specific content for an unspecific amount of time. In this arbitration the "aggressor" is ChrisO's move. Reverting his edits until ruling would discourage similar actions in the future. Should the (final?) decision be that ChrisO's edits are necessary or welcome, we can always make them again, but should they be deemed disrupting, then we will have just encouraged other nationalist/involved/POVed/playful admins to act exactly as ChrisO did, since their edits will also most probably stand for months, even years, should any involved party sabotage any ruling of the ArbCom... I really would like an explanation as to the ArbCom's rationale regarding this decision. GK1973 (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Response to J.Delanoy about Temporary injunction

Posting in my own section as requested.

We can't expect a wiki to be locked for extended periods of time against legitimate edits/moves (e.g. moving the article back). What will happen after the extension you suggest? If the problem is not resolved, should we extend it again?. How long should we repeat that process?. Should nobody be able to challenge ChrisO's choice, even though it was initially imposed against policy (WP:UNINVOLVED, WP:consensus to cite a few)? Would that still be "temporary". Wouldn't that translate as asking ARBCOM to endorse the initial move? Temporary solutions (like UN's use of former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) usually chose a neutral choice or a status quo ante as temporary, not an imposed new status quo. Shadowmorph 09:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You do realise that WP:NPOV is a Misplaced Pages concept and not something from the real world, right? Because you keep misrepresenting the UN as some form of "NPOV" entity. BalkanFever 10:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Democracy also is not the best regime, but it's the best we have. The same goes for neutrality. There are many POVs, but NPOV is the best concept we have. If we can learn lessons from the ouside world (including the United Nations paradigm, where nations at war sit next to each other), there are only benefits. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 11:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The UN is more neutral than other official entities in these discussions. The UN has a POV, I did say there is a pro-UN position and a pro-WP:CONSENSUS position amongst us. The UN has a POV but it might be a more NeutralPOV than many of us in here. Nothing more and nothing less Shadowmorph 11:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

In searching what best conforms to the Misplaced Pages concept of NPOV, who should we consult better? the CIA? Anyway I didn't say to use the UN term now. I say move the article back to where it was before anything else. Nobody disputed the previous title, even ethnic Macedonians used the title "Republic of Macedonia" instead of "Macedonia" in their Userboxes. It means that name is more neutral, lets use it until we can find what the taxonomy of articles should be with the help of any third opinion. That's what I say.Shadowmorph 11:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Length of review

Question for J.delanoy: how long would you suggest the review should take? A few weeks, or longer? Would you want it to have a predefined cut-off point by which it has to be concluded? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:22, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. Most relevant evidence has already been mentioned in the /evidence page of this case, so I don't think it would be necessary for them to entertain new opinions. That alone would cut off several months. J.delanoy_adds 00:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Good point. It would of course have to be re-presented to the reviewers to get rid of the extraneous stuff about process, conduct etc, but that shouldn't take long. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to say that I agree with this proposal. If a neutral solution is found (and I'm sure neutral editors will come up with a neutral solution), all this will be a thing of the past. My only recommendation is that the neutral editors should have some background in dispute resolution and a very good knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies, so in fact my first choice would be the arbs (although not in an ArbCom context, in order to not mix ArbCom with content decision).--Avg (talk) 00:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

On desysopping

I am deeply shocked and more disappointed than I can say by the "remedies" proposed regarding ChrisO and Future Perfect at Sunrise. The idea that two administrators who have taken on the thankless and seemingly unending task of defending our core content policies - neutrality, verifiability and no original research - are deserving of censures including topic bans and desysopping is appalling, and the message it sends to the community at large, particularly to those who work in areas of ethnic dispute, is discouraging in the extreme.

Few administrators can fulfill the role that ChrisO and Future Perfect do, less because other administrators lack the necessary background knowledge (although this plays a part as well), but because most administrators just don't care. I know from experience that my requests for help from admins with these types of disputes rarely elicits a speedy response (initial report and response some 6 hours and 71 intervening edits later ), if it meets with a response at all .

Future Perfect is one of the administrators here that I respect and admire most. He is a fine writer and an excellent scholar who invariably insists on accuracy. He constantly strives for neutrality in the historically complicated realm of Balkan-related articles and until recently has conducted himself with grace and civility. It is true that his temper has been rather short lately, but I firmly believe that this is a result of the pressures of this ArbCom case. Most users would have snapped long ago; I know I would have. I do not doubt that his usual equanimity will return once this case has been settled, and I hope that others will extend him the same good faith that has been shown to the other parties here.

There will always be nationalists who want to claim that their people are the oldest in a given region, or were the first to make some landmark discovery. There will always be those who want to blur history to make a nation's past appear more glorious, or less infamous. These desires sometimes spring from malice but more often from ignorance. What is certain is that there will always be more such tendentious editors than administrators to combat them. I would urge the arbiters to please, please not make the problem worse by crippling those few who have tried to take a stand for neutrality. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Liz: It's hardly a recent trend as you mistakenly believe. For one thing, look at his RFC, where you staunchly defended him too, and this was months before this arb case: ...I apologised for removing his posts, and then I just told him, in simple, neutral words, that this wasn't the right place for him. He never posted again. And that was the right result. This guy may have been the nicest person in the world, but he wouldn't have become a constructive contributor in a thousand years. (emphasis his), and , also months ago. This is a long pattern of his. As for ChrisO, this is his fourth arbcom case for the same basic reasons. Just how many times do you think he needs to be warned by the arbs? I'm not speaking in FPAS-speak, but if I were, to quote a comment he made on this very page, I'd say your view this is merely a recent trend "batshit insane". Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Your own incivility is duly noted. I'm having a hard time seeing how you equate what I've written to the diffs previously described as "batshit insane": , , , and . If you really can't see a difference, then I don't know what more there is to be said. Kafka Liz (talk) 22:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Kafka. As I pointed out, there are currently at best 4 admins who are at least semi-active in Balkan articles. Arbcom is suggesting cutting that number in half, and then announcing that if you've ever edited articles in the sphere, you can't use admin tools? I'd like to know who they suggest will fill the gap. Because I don't know of anyone who has the subject-matter knowledge, the patience to deal with POV pushers, and at the same time hasn't edited the articles in question. These remedies are the very definition of wikilawyering - enforcing the rules to the detriment of the encyclopedia. // Chris 00:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I was an uninvolved editor when I protected Greece. I am no longer uninvolved, even though I have never edited Greece or Macedonia, and my edits to related articles are limited to wiki-gnoming here and there and reverting vandalism of the "FYROM" variety. However, I took a position on the whole naming issue, and suddenly I was considered so partisan that even my filing the arbitration case was being opposed. This sort of entrenched warfare is what other admins look to enjoy, and it's the primary reason I'm not coming back to this section of Misplaced Pages once the arbitration case is over. Horologium (talk) 01:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well if I can comment on this, I personally proposed you as a neutral filing party, even if you voted at the opposite side than me. I still believe you would be an excellent addition to the admins watching these topics.--Avg (talk) 01:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I've stated it elsewhere here and I will state it again. Removing Future Perfect and ChrisO from working as admins in the Balkan sphere would be a serious surrender to the POV warriors in this part of Misplaced Pages. And I seriously disagree with Rlevse's contention that academics should not be admins. Who better to oversee, supervise, and edit the articles on subjects for which you are one of the experts? Sometimes it takes a subject matter expert to recognize subtle forms of vandalism and POV pushing. (Taivo (talk) 01:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC))

I never said they shouldn't be admins, I said they need to keep from being involved admins (in wordier verbiage), while also acting as an editor, which all admins should do anyway--try to avoid becoming involved in a topic and acting as an admin in that same topic. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You "never said they shouldn't be admins"? Haven't you proposed desysopping, i.e. that we shouldn't be admins? -- ChrisO (talk) 06:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess that sentence was referring to "academics" in general, not to these two specific cases of freaking pathetic abusive admins, namely you and me. But more generally speaking, Taivo's point is correct: Even if one maintains that administrators (of course) shouldn't take admin actions to advance a position in a dispute they are an immediate party to, there is nothing wrong with administrators being generally active in topic domains of their interests. In fact, as I've been saying, complex fields like Balkan politics absolutely need that kind of involvement. You sometimes need someone who is thoroughly familiar with a dispute, including its content side, to distinguish disruption from legitimate conduct in a heated content debate. I dare say, if the Balkan articles hadn't had the permanent half-editorial and half-administratorial attention of an editor like me for the last two and a half years, they would be much worse now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Your two specific cases are different from the general principle. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Some comments from Avg

I had a look at the proposal regarding myself. Please allow me to write my comments below and apologies for the size:

First, the FoFs. "Avg has disrupted the project through years-long systematic advocacy editing in issues of Greek national disputes, including the Macedonia naming issue" is not an accurate representation of facts. Of course I do not negate my involvement in the Macedonia issues, after all I'm a Macedonian myself and very interested in the subject, although I do negate that my opinion is "years-long systematic advocacy" which has "disrupted the project". Such a characterization means that my opinion is in stark contrast with Misplaced Pages policies in order to promote a certain POV. Instead, I have been very careful to stay within Misplaced Pages policies and have often suppresed my own POV in favor of the policies. The greatest proof of this is that I am actually a proponent of a solution that does not agree with my POV, but which I consider to be the best for Misplaced Pages. And of course I mean that, although my POV is for "former Yugoslav..." to be the standard name, I actively support the "Republic of Macedonia" name to be the standard for all articles except the legacy special cases of International Organizations and Greece. On another subject, the wording in the FoF presumes my involvement in Greek national disputes other than Macedonia. In which other disputes have I ever participated? This is creating a wrong impression.

Now let's have a closer look at the diffs supporting this FoF. I will go through them one by one.

One can see that this is an empty title. There's absolutely nothing there and there never was. I have never put a single diff, even if I had gathered them, exactly because I considered this could enflame the situation.

I have already replied in the Workshop about those and the same applies as previously. After consideration I chose to refrain from inflaming the situation and did not edit-war. So both here and above, I actually turned down the heat myself, even if in both cases I was responding and never initiating.

This is a diff from 14 May 2006, so more than 3 years old(!). Back then I was fresh to Misplaced Pages (less than two months) and did indeed use "FYROMian", coming from a Greek background where this word is not considered offensive. However I soon afterwards substituted the word for "Slavomacedonian" and/or "ethnic Macedonian" after been notified that it might be offensive to some people. In fact I now strongly discourage its usage. Exposure to a non-Greek environment broadens people's horizons. Regarding the User:Greece666 issue, I could possibly put my comments in a more civil tone (again this was when I was a newbie!), however what struck me then is that a new user created the username "Greece666" (hence something along the lines of "Greece is evil") and then immediately entered into debates always on the opposing side of the Greek POV. And then on top of that he claimed he was Greek, which made no sense at all. This was a very very odd incident. Could I have avoided the confrontation? I guess I could have. I now do. If anything, I would say this shows I have vastly improved my behavior during my course in Misplaced Pages from 2006 till today. It makes no sense to be sanctioned for something I did in 2006.

I stand by this diff 100%. This is exactly what happened. I would say the exact same thing right now if asked.

Let's put it in context. This was a reply to this. I don't need to comment further.

Again, let's put it in context. It was a reply to this and this. If someone presents a false premise as a fact (rest of the World versus the obsessed Greeks), then this should be addressed.

Just stating the obvious (look right above at ChrisO's comment).

Yes, I considered that I should highlight what was going on and stand by Hectorian since he was threatened that a user conduct RfC might be opened against him. It's part of the series of threats that I was referring to my evidence.

Aren't you here shooting the messenger? I'm pointing the obvious double standards. Fut.Perf. was quick to call for an indef.ban of a user from the opposing side of his dispute, but he did not ask for any measures against users from his side of the dispute, stating he was too involved.

I chose not to edit war against Fut.Perf. but to take it to the talk page. Now regarding vandalism: Let me quote WP:VAN:"For example, adding a controversial personal opinion to an article once is not vandalism; reinserting it despite multiple warnings is". I see now that someone, weeks after my comment added a clarification that edit warring is not vandalism. However, when I put my comment, this was not there and my understanding was that this was vandalism.

I could answer to this one offline if asked. I don't want to further inflame the situation.

A statement of fact. One only needs to follow the timeline of events. There is no assumption anywhere.

A response to a statement just above that blocking a single IP has no effect at all, so the alternative was to block a whole range of IPs (which corresponds to thousands of users). And again just above, he seems to regret only for the fact that he was blocking IPs outside Greece (so the Greek IPs are ok to be blocked).

Just read above. This has indeed been one of my FoFs and I referred the matter to the arbs here (which incidentally is the next diff against me in here, for reasons I do not understand)

As with almost all the diffs, this one was a reply. Just above, ChrisO is trying to shift the blame for his move from him to me personally.

Not sure what is the problem of saying that these emails should be forwarded to the arbs (and of course not being made public).

In the next FoF I have discovered some inaccuracies.

Regarding the Greece666 issue from 2006, I have stated above what were my concerns, I explained my usage of the term FYROMian (which I now disapprove of and have long time ago stopped using it). I did not accuse him of being "leftist", how could I since I myself lean to the left, I only mentioned that a small leftist organization called OAKKE was the only one supporting Rainbow (political party), which is a fact. I finally state very strongly that in no way have I ever called him "Albanian", which is something I could never ever do! Please read the talk page. How did you infer this? I feel I have to add another comment especially for this. Having it as a FoF against me could imply that I'm even a racist! Please remove this completely. Finally, yes I did use Greek, but only as a way to check if he knew Greek and that's all. I did not use any offensive language and anyone can confirm this. Regardless, should I say again that I would not approach him the same way today as I did in 2006?

There are some diffs which are recycled from above (as mentioned, I decided to refrain from posting them)

The sabotage issue refers to the fact that the consensus was overturned towards one specific POV and it was not the "Greek" POV. When someone ignores the consensus and proclaims a guideline dead, only to release their own version of the guideline, then in my vocabulary this is sabotage. A textbook example of it.

Regarding Fut.Perf,'s sock, I have answered here . By the way, looking at this post I intended to ask for a clarification whether socks are allowed to be used for inflaming debates but I forgot to do so. I guess it is too late now.

I am accused of thisas "accusing others of an intent to deceive". This is exactly the incident were ChrisO did deceive the community by stating he made a "minor" change when he moved Macedonia to Macedonia (disambiguation)! Should I be blamed for pointing it out?

Regarding this this is my reaction when I realized that Fut.Perf. had made a 180 degree turn from what he was supporting previously and was now accusing others for supporting what he himself was supporting previously. Only if he deleted his previous contributions he could be considered to have a consistent opinion because they were extremely contradictory.

And the last set of diffs, about WP:AGF. Here I refer to the past, not to the future so I'm not assuming anything. Now this I really am at loss for words. Is it me who is accused of assuming bad faith here? Who made the bad faith assumption that I posted this on a board and wrote it in public for everyone to see?

My interactions with Taivo that are put here ,, are simple dialogue in my mind. I understand there may be people who consider it wikilawyering but I can only say this is the way I build my arguments.

Second, the remedies. I'll start with the topic ban. I have gone to my diffs one by one. I have tried very hard to behave and abide by the policies, even sometimes I felt very strongly about what I was seen happening in a topic that is very dear to me. I now see that, even if I hadn't restrained myself, I would get exactly the same sanction. So, restraining oneself appears not to be appreciated. In any case, I have repeatedly stated that I will respect the decision of the Committee and I plan to do so if it includes a topic ban, no matter how much I disagree with it.

Finally, the full ban. It is one thing to consider banning someone from a topic and a completely different ball park to consider banning someone from the project. I understand the remedy has been copied and pasted from Fut.Perf.'s draconian proposal but could someone step back and have a second look here. Why it is proposed to ban me from contributing to other areas of Misplaced Pages? Banning someone from the project means they are a liability to the encyclopedia as a whole. During my time here I have started dozens of articles unrelated to Macedonia and contributed to dozens more, I love this encyclopedia and I have dedicated much of my time to improving it. I have adhered to all its policies and I tried to respect them even at times like this where I was attacked relentlessly. I could possibly understand, even if I disagree, the logic behind a topic ban, but if you ban me from the whole project it's like telling me that my contribution is not wanted in Misplaced Pages. This is a very strong statement and I cannot find any incentive at all returning to the project afterwards.

These were my comments and apologies again for the long post.--Avg (talk) 21:46, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's take the first one as an example,you removed this from your section header "- A collection of the best POV diffs by Slavomacedonians" and scroll down on that same page I find this: "Yeah ok whatever. I refer to you as Slavomacedonians and someone tells me they're offended by me not using "Macedonians". My only alternative is then to use "Skopjans" as all Greeks do (since Macedonians as we've many times said are the Greek Macedonians in a Greek context, so there's simply no way any Greek would use "Macedonians" to refer to you).-- Avg 12:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)" And this diff seems very non-AGF-y when Yanismarou after working on some of the concerns said "Thanks. 3 out of 10 gone. Give me a couple of days to go through the remaining ones.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)". — Rlevse • Talk • 00:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually thanks for bringing up the first one, it probably depicts the situation even better. I've mentioned above that I myself am a Macedonian (of Greek background). A Slav Macedonian complained about my use of the term Slavomacedonians (which I have consistently adopted some time now out of courtesy), since they wanted to be called solely Macedonians. I cannot call someone else plain Macedonian, since this is what I call myself and I would deny my own identity. I explained to them that using "Slavomacedonian" is a courtesy and if I didn't want to be courteous I would use "Skopjan" which is the (non-offensive) term in Greek, although I agree that it is offensive in English (hence I refrain from using it).

Regarding the FAR proposal, you can find issues with all FAs, the important point here is the timing and the dispute over the "confusion" part. These two alone prove that it is a bad faith nomination, something that Yannismarou also said. Actually, it is commendable that he worked on eliminating even the minute complaints about the article, and proves how focused he is on improving the encyclopedia despite his personal feelings about a certain course of events.--Avg (talk) 00:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Objection to using current policy wording in a proposed decision

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions is a policy - but it's not a pillar; therefore it's open to evolution, and I disagree with quoting its current content verbatim in a proposed Arbcom decision (No.16). Novickas (talk) 00:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand this objection. Every policy is open to evolution, including NPOV. The current wording reflects the policy as it is now and as editors are expected to follow it. If it changes in the future that doesn't alter the standards that editors are supposed to apply today. Citing the current wording merely reflects that - it doesn't "fix" the wording as a standard that has to be followed for all time. -- ChrisO (talk) 06:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Arbcom quotes policies and guidelines of all types all the time, doesn't it? The mutability is no problem, because Arbcom doesn't operate with binding precedents, so quoting something as a guiding principle now doesn't mean setting it in stone forever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Lost sight of original dispute

Looking at the proposed decision, there is nothing which addresses the original dispute (at Greece), which was the debate over using "Republic of Macedonia" or "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", probably because of the firestorm over the page move of the Macedonia article. This is something that needs to be addressed, as that page is still fully protected; every time protection has expired or been reduced, the edit war over the two terms recurs. (Since Republic of Macedonia is a redirect, editors can simply add in "Former Yugoslav". This needs to be addressed before the protection ends (it's currently set for June 16th, but I will restore it again at the first sign of the edit war resuming). Horologium (talk) 12:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly sure that at least three of the most involved parties in this arbitration, namely John Carter, SQRT and Shadowmorph, didn't even know this was was the original dispute. BalkanFever 12:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)