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	Ireland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result April 15, 2006 Good article nominee Listed October 13, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted October 30, 2008 Good article reassessment Not listed
Current status: Delisted good article

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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ireland Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

1. Pre April 2004
2. April 2004 to August 2004
3. August 2004 to October 2005
4. October 2005 - November 2006
5. November 2006 - February 2007
6. February 2007
7. March 2007 - June 2007
8. June 2007 - October 2007
9. October 2007 - July 2008
10. July 2008 - November 2008
11. November 2008 - January 2009

underlying bias

It seems to me that there is an underling point of view that needs airing.

The Irish Free State was a political compromise which was not much loved by anyone. The successor state claimed that it was the government of the whole of Ireland, a claim that was sort of fudged with the changes to the Irish constitution as part of the Good Friday Agreement.

It made sense for those who originally wrote a constitution that claimed sovereignty over the whole of Ireland to call it the Irish state as it summed up in one word the aspirations expressed in the constitution for a united Ireland -- Given those aspirations, it would have been daft to call it the Southern Irish state.

So the underlying bias in using the name "Ireland" for the state is that it implies a wish to see one unified country under an independent sovereign state (with a possible sub-plot that the British rule in Northern Ireland is illegitimate), while the use of the name "Republic of Ireland" is a statement that at the moment the government is the sovereign government over the 26 counties not the whole of Ireland, (with the possible sub-plot of "No surrender")

I think it is important that if some independent administrators are to be used to decide on the names that they are aware that there are strong political undercurrents over this dispute that are often hidden behind Google hits an other arguments. I say this because although anyone who has a preference for a specific outcome in this debate will already be aware of the underlying politics, this may not be apparent to the three administrators who may be appointed to decide the issue by the Arbcom. --PBS (talk) 10:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

And yet, be that as it may, Ireland *is* the name of the state. The territorial claim was still there when the term 'Repubic of Ireland' was invented by Dail legislation. Nuclare (talk) 12:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I see no point using this section to present any arguments in favour of one point of view or another as that has been done in other sections. --PBS (talk) 13:57, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, this illustrates a complete ignorance to the subject under discussion. To suggest that the Irish Free State was a political compromise is to ignore Lloyd George giving the Irish side until 10 p.m. that night to accept or reject the terms of the treaty. Failure to do this would he said, result in "an immediate and terrible war." So much for “a political compromise.” The British Government then insisted that the Free State constitution conform to the terms of that treaty.

On the 1937 Constitution, while article 2 defined the national territory as “the whole island of Ireland, its islands and territorial seas” article 3 stated notwithstanding this the laws of the State should only apply to the 26 counties “pending the re-integration of the national territory.”

The 1948 Republic of Ireland Act withdrew Ireland from the Commonwealth marking the end of the policy of “external association” and was universally acknowledged including the United Kingdom government. The UK government however refused to use the term Ireland, using instead Éire. In addition, the 1948 Republic of Ireland Act used the descriptive term of the Republic of Ireland. This did not and dose not change the fact that the name of the Irish state is Ireland under the Irish Constitution. Articles 2 and 3 have been replaced and to describe it as a fudge exhibits the same ignorance as outlined above.

Since 2000 United Kingdom government has referred to the State as Ireland, and the credentials presented by the British ambassador, Stewart Eldon, in 2003, were addressed to the President of Ireland. That you see no point using this section to present any arguments in favor of one point of view or another as that has been done in other sections, is contradicted by your own contribution. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

This came up before but, User:RashersTierney pointed out that there is an official British committee that decides what the UK 'official' name for the State is. From the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use

… the spellings of country names, as recommended by PCGN. This list reflects current British usage. Countries are arranged alphabetically under their common names. The official state title, (ie. the form used in formal, legal or diplomatic contexts), where different, is shown underneath and reflects the name used by the State itself. It is translated into English where necessary.

As Rashers says, seems to me as unambiguous as official texts ever get. The PCGN appears to be the body responsible for advising re. names at policy level. --HighKing (talk) 13:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

In order to avoid any possible bias or POV in any renaming of the two Ireland articles, why not those with knowledge of foreign languages contact other sections of Misplaced Pages to find out other reasonings? It's interesting to look at the main European languages wikipedia sites: German, Danish, Spanish, French, Italian, Dutch, Swedish and Finnish. Of those eight, 6 give the title Ireland for the state, 1 for a disambiguation page and 1 for the island. For those who are interested and have the know how why not contact them and find out their reasoning for the title articles? It may be the case that they have thought of points that no editors here have thought of! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.154.247 (talk) 15:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The rationale is obvious. Ireland primarily refers to the state, worldwide in most languages. -- Evertype·✆ 15:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

How do you know? Did you ever wonder where the state got the name from? (The island, maybe?) Mooretwin (talk) 18:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thats really helpful, Evertype *rolls eyes*. Rockpocket 18:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

So... you think that all those languages have Ireland referring to the state for some other reason? -- Evertype·✆ 02:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think if you want to find out someone's rationale you should ask them. You shouldn't impose your own opinion on them. Rockpocket 05:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Really! You know, I can read all of those languages on that list, except Finnish. Whom shall I ask? There is no one person to ask. And what good would it do? What kind of answer could they give? "We don't consider the state to be 'primary' but we put it under this article name because...?" Or maybe "Oops! We've been wrong all these years! Let's move the article!" Do you imagine they will give another answer? And what effect will that have over here (given the fact that Remedy 2 is in preparation)? It's possible to go to every link for Ireland in the other Wikis and report back, and maybe I'll do that in due course if the ArbCom thinks it would make a difference. -- Evertype·✆ 09:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that questioning people at those pages isn't a good idea (certainly not at this stage), but I think their rationale *could* be subtly different than what you claim it must be: It could, for example, be based on an assessment that states are primary over other units, rather than a specific analysis that judged "Ireland" meaning the state to be primary. Nuclare (talk) 05:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I know exactly what the problem here is. There's no bias this is all merely about opinions (pov). It almost goes back to the Irish civil war. The main question here is what exactly is the state called Ireland? Is it a continuation of the Ireland that existed for millenia (minus Northern Ireland of course) or is it a modern construct that has nothing to do with the previous centuries of Irish history? It's whether editors are agreeing to either the latter or the former that is causing editors to give different opinions on any titles.78.16.48.254 (talk) 19:02, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it could be neither of those two. The present state can (and does) have plenty to do with the previous centuries of Irish history, but that doesn't follow that the state must be deemed the 'owner' and sole 'owner' of all of that history. Nuclare (talk) 05:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Soon folks, the 3 Administrators will make their choices & finally our long wiki nightmare, will be over. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Amen. --HighKing (talk) 00:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Amen. (the IP formerly known as 89.101.221.3) --89.19.65.226 (talk) 21:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Which is why I took this to ArbCom. -- Evertype·✆ 02:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of what is more comfortable to describe the 26 counties, statistics based on a division need to be described as such. The law says to describe it as the republic, although the state of the government should be described as Ireland or Eire, as would be the intention. Republic of Ireland Act 1948. Also, if of any consequence, the British government backed that all the way with Ireland Act 1949. Unionist, British and Irish politics agree, the government is ok to be of Ireland so without dispute there is no reason for any international body to refuse that name actually, the British and Northern Irish reps opposed use of "Ireland" for the state and I guess that includes the government , sorry. ~ R.T.G 16:13, 28 January 2009 (UTC) but there is grounds, regardless of government, if you are making statistics of the republic or its boundries (or the north make no mistake), describe it as that (exactly what the laws say, who disputes that? and it makes sense. If you leave the north out you ought to say so. The state does not, so it should not say so.) ~ R.T.G 11:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Frederick Joseph Springsteen, "No Surrender", 1983:

"We made a promise we swore we'd always remember No retreat no surrender Like soldiers in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat no surrender ... Now on the street tonight the lights grow dim The walls of my room are closing in There's a war outside still raging you say it ain't ours anymore to win I want to sleep beneath peaceful skies in my lover's bed with a wide open country in my eyes and these romantic dreams in my head"

Springsteens father, Douglas Frederick Springsteen, was a bus driver of Dutch and Irish ancestry. Being that Bruce played lots of Northern Ireland nights, and has both orange and green backgrounds, is this a song inspired by the "No Surrender" slogan of the time? It's sort of vague. ~ R.T.G 16:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

A guy could trip over his pen and break his neck but does he want dismissed from his own house? No. ~ R.T.G 16:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"The law says to describe it as the republic..." is complete nonsense. The constitution, the highest law in the land says Ireland is the name of the State. The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 was Ireland leaving the common wealth, and delaring a Republic. It clearly states it is a descriptive term. --Domer48_'fenian' 13:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, my Funk & Wagnall encyclopedia calls the country, Republic of Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 14:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi GoodDay FWIW, if we were to go down that road we would not be having this discussion. The most common term per number of sources is Ireland. Only on Wiki hey. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

What's the most common term for the island? LOL! Mooretwin (talk) 11:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Okie Dokie. Has a third Administrator been designated yet? GoodDay (talk) 14:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I WANT TO ESTABLISH THE INVALIDITY OF THE NAME IRELAND ON THE ISLAND but so far I come up plum and I WANT TO ESTABLISH THE IRISH GOVERNMENT AS MORE SIGNIFIGANT THAN THE ISLAND but I don't believe it is.

• 10 years of ceasefire may make peace, girls, but unless there are some signifigant declarations, Ireland is an island and the state that named itself Ireland named itself after every part of that island.
• When Northern Irish boxers, footballers and runners are Irish, nobody bats an eyelid so what's that about then?
• Leave that poor judge alone! If he is the only quote in nerly 100 years, leave him alone. And if the Good Friday Agreement changed the bounds of the state, youd better had my passport back because I claimed on it that I am(was?) Irish.
• The current president is one of the most respected lawyers either side of the border. Not only is she from Belfast Falls, she ran the Housing Executive. I guess Mary is less Irish than the rest of us these days but let her finish out her term anyways because you are so nice and maybe if she applys quick enough we let her keep the passport. Oh shit! That was ten years ago. Tough tit Mary you are going home (what a load of balls).
• The government saying that it makes no further claim to Northern Irish ground, to promote peace, does not mention "Ireland is now flown south for the winter".
• It is only ten years since the government down here declared they would not support an all out armed struggle for the north, hardly some strong ground to say "Its not the place we thought it was".
• When you kids grow up to about thirty, you will know that ten years ago you were some sort of adult not "Wow thats years ago. In the old days!". If you are looking for a social network try MySpace ~ R.T.G 15:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

@Domer48, sorry mate, actually Cosgrave explain it at the time that the law was intended to give the state the description of the Republic of Ireland in the English language. Cosgrave wrote the Republic Act and based upon his wishes it became law (they call that explicit). Minor points of law always boil down to the most important opinions such as the person writing the law making it absolutely specific his intentions. The state was named Ireland with no thought to the 26 counties. The government swears it will not fight and die for the rest of it now. If there is any more to that, such as an island that is no longer an Ireland, let's see it. How dare you be a small dependant country, taking with one hand but using the other to cut the neck of your smallest most dependent relative? Oh well, thanks for all the fish. Something unclear about that? ~ R.T.G 15:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Domer48 removed some of my comments. In reverting that action his own comments have been removed. If he wish to add anything more, I suggest he do so without editing what I have to say. I see nothing contrary to Misplaced Pages in what he removed. ~ R.T.G 23:22, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

If you go to the Department of an Taoiseach and read the Constitution of Ireland - Bunreacht na hÉireann, note, not the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland. the Constitution of Ireland it says in Article 4 “The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.”

The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 repealed the EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY (EXTERNAL RELATIONS) ACT, 1936, which withdrew Ireland from the British Common Wealth, and declared Ireland to be a Republic. This was made evident in the 1948 Act by section 2 which stated “It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland.” It is also clearly stated that this is a “description of the State” and not the name of the State. As I have already pointed to above, “The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.” Now unless or until there is a Constitutional Referendum that is the only official name for the State.

I would also like to draw your attention to WP:TPG and have edited your comments accordingly. You may also wish to read WP:SOAP, thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 18:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Any word on the third Administrator, yet? GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Nothing yet! --Domer48_'fenian' 16:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry Domer48, your interpretation is not incorrect but I see more value in the interpretation by the persons who introduced the bill and made it law. If everybody votes for murder to be illegal and then some Wikipedians are claiming "That wording says murder is legal!!", what is the conclusion? The wiki records murder to be legal with no contrary suggestion? I think it should record that murder is illegal with contrary suggestion in the wording (or else it's misleading the "underlying bias" here is one contrary and argumentative to the authorities and sentiments of the Irish government). It may be a good idea to write some articles about the gap in interpretation (and very good idea? for me, laws that are open to speculation are very interesting.) ~ R.T.G 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

That's two people who have said the exact same thing to you, and you've responded with an argument that when boiled down, amounts to "you're wrong". Nobody else here appears to support your imaginative interpretation of the bill or of Collins' statement. Can you try to refute arguments (as is normal) rather than meander on about murder being legal (?). Otherwise can we close this and move on? --HighKing (talk) 18:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that HighKing, regards --Domer48_'fenian' 21:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

:::OK Highking, in your perfect world, the purpose and description of the laws are not those set out by the providers of them but the ones set out by you and Domer48 where "youre wrong" means "no way" and "not if theres two of us". If what I say is of more importance to anything else....? Please, I am a lowly nut. Once more, what puts the authority of the makers of those laws out of the picture and if the name of the island is out of the picture, what is its new one? Before you answer that, quote to me the constitution, run me off where the leaders of sixteen differed between islands and anything else. Of course you guys know and them guys didn't but if you don't have sixteen to go against them, why not back them up a bit in that document that they died to make important, passed by British and all after the deeds, in the way they saw it rather than your own speculation of it? Is that sort of off the wall? ~ R.T.G 23:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I must be having a 'thick head' day. RTG, I've no clue, what you're posting about. GoodDay (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

People keep quoting the laws and constitution as a guide to what Ireland is. That is misleading. After that some are saying how the constitution was changed for the Good Friday agreement and that altered the sentiment towards the island, also misleading (read it).

• • Although Republic of Ireland is more comfortable and familiar for me, it makes no odds what they name it - the importance of the island is part of the basis of the state in law and constitution. Claiming the state is more important than the island goes against something the state always stood for. Nobody will cite proper difference to that. Any suggestion of the states importance should not dispute this article being about Ireland as would suit the states veiw of importance, right? If not, what is the underlying bias here? ~ R.T.G 07:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland is more comfortable and familiar for me - at least now I understand why most of your arguments are meandering and unclear. It's basically an argument for your own POV. Most editors here haven't a clue what you're trying to say. All the words are English, but most of the time we're all guessing as to the meaning. Sorry - I've no more time to spend on this, although there have been one or two genuinely funny thoughts put in my head by your prose. --HighKing (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Title problems

This argument needs to be sorted. This page is unfair to the citizens of ireland But if we gave this title to the state of ireland it would be unfair on Northen Irish people

We could sort this method out in three simple ways

1. Rename this page "Ireland (Island)"

2. Rename the Republic of Ireland page "Ireland (State)"

3. Make a page called "Ireland" that will just contain links to the above two —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.167.201 (talk) 18:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This belongs at the bottom of the discussion page. That's where new discussions are begun. GoodDay (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I moved this to the bottom of the page where it belongs as GoodDay said. You may be interested to take a look at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration where there is an ongoing attempt to resolve the naming dispute. If you are interested in this issue you could register and then join the project and try to contribute to resolving this problem. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This seems close to the consensus. It has been mentioned above that "Ireland (country)" would be more in line with other usage. I would recommend this option. The Georgia page is such a simple disambiguation, which starts out with "Georgia has two principal meanings: * Georgia (country) * Georgia (U.S. state) Georgia may also refer to:". The Ireland page could be a similar disambiguation page which starts with "Ireland has two principal meanings: * Ireland (country) * Ireland (island) Ireland may also refer to:".

I suppose that even if this is agreed upon there would be a long discussion on the order of the two links. I suggest that alphabetical order would not show a bias between the two terms.

Of course, links to "Republic of Ireland" should forward to "Ireland (country)".

There is currently a disambiguation page for "Ireland (country)" which states "Ireland (country) can refer to either: * Republic of Ireland, the political state of that name * Ireland, the island whence Irish people come".

This does not make sense to me that a restriction of a name to "(country)" should be considered to refer to the island. Red King made this a disambiguation page 11 August 2008; Rockpocket attributed the name "Republic of Ireland" to the country 1 November 2008; and 84.203.49.145 added a line (with typos) about the naming controversy. I just now corrected the typos and removed the claim that "Republic of Ireland" is the name of the country. I suggest removing this from being a disambiguation page even before the naming issue for the pages for the country and island of Ireland is resolved. Dfoxvog (talk) 18:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Given that the Ireland (country) had just become another edit-warring battleground in the ongoing dispute about Ireland (state) v Ireland (island), I accept Dfoxvog's argument and so have undone my original disambiguation and the series of edits that arose from it. But it should be recognised that, to a large body of people (including Rugby, for one), Ireland is a country that is divided between two jurisdictions/states - which is why I introduced the disambig. But I think we had just best accept the generic Misplaced Pages definition that 'Country' ≡ nation state', otherwise we will never resolve it. --Red King (talk) 18:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Corrib Gas Project needs link

This should not be controversial, but the page is locked, so i have to ask someone to do it.

There should be a link \] for the referenced words in the "Energy network" section. 140.203.154.11 (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Done, even if the Corrib gas controversy is hardly the best article on Misplaced Pages. This article is protected due to persistent IP vandalism. IMHO the whole project should be. If you want to edit you can always register. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 18:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Flag?

Should the Irish flag be shown at the top of the infobox for easy reference?

Currently, you would have to scroll half way down the page to find out what the Irish flag looks like.

FreeT (talk) 02:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The island doesn't have a flag technically, although the Tricolour is the de facto flag. O Fenian (talk) 02:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

No "technically" about it, there is no flag for the Island of Ireland and such things certainly do not need to be placed in the info box which would lead to a major dispute. BritishWatcher (talk) 02:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

There is in the eyes of the majority of the population, which is why I said de facto. O Fenian (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

No. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ireland does have a flag - the Cross of St. Patrick. Whatever it's origin, it's the only flag that has ever been officially used to represent the whole of Ireland. ðarkuncoll 10:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I beg to differ, but that is just based on this discussion backed up by WP:RS and WP:V. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Geography doesn't have flags , if the cross was ever used for Ireland it was for the political entity on the Island at the time Gnevin (talk) 13:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

As it currently stands, the island has no single agreed upon flag by ROI or NI. Therefore suggesting that the island currently has one singular flag would be misleading. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 13:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The only whole island flag ever used was the Flag of Saint Patrick but that was for the state of Ireland which no longer exists. Currently no Flag of Ireland exists. The republic has the tricolour and Northern Ireland uses the Union Flag...

The tricolour certainly should be inserted into the infobox. When one thinks of Ireland, you think of the Tricolour. Besides, as the user above commented, it is the "de facto" flag of the island. Bonzostar (talk) 22:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The tricolour certainly is not the flag of Ireland, de facto or otherwise, just as La Bandera de España isn't the flag of the Iberian Peninsula. Until the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland governments agree otherwise, there is no flag of Ireland.  Roadnote  ♫  11:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no single flag that represents the entire island of Ireland. There is a Flag of Ireland however. Not the same thing at all, and is a good example of why some form of disambiguation is required between the island and the state. --HighKing (talk) 12:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Misleading Description of Partition

This article is highly misleading that when discussing Northern Ireland says 'which rejoined the United Kingdom'. Overall Northern Ireland stayed the United Kingdom and the south left.

An editor User:O_Fenian who has instantly and quite discourteously shouted 'vandalism' at me insists that because Northern Ireland was in the Irish Free State for 48 hours that must mean that it 'rejoined' the UK. The fact that NI was in this state was merely a technical legal sub-step - it was already pre-determined before this legal manoeuvre that NI would not leave, so overall NI remained in the UK. This is a summary that summarises hundreds of years of Irish history in a few sentences - overall the south left the UK and the north remained. Highlighting that NI 'rejoined' in a summary section due to a sub-step lasting a matter of hours is just highly misleading. 84.226.43.118 (talk) 03:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

This is not vandalism, it is a content. However, it is in danger of turning into an edit war, and both sides should discuss the issue here to seek consensus.

The anon IP does have a point in this edit. The 48-hour hiatus was a technical step which (so far as I am aware) had no practical consequence. Taxes were not remitted to Dublin, public servants didn't take their orders from Dublin, the tricolour did fly over govt premises in Belfast.

This sort of technical hiatus applies in all sorts of situations, and should of course be described where the issue is considered in detail … but in a one-sentence summary to describe the situation solely as a "rejoining" is misleading. The full situation is explained rather well in a succinct paragraph in the history section, but the "rejoined" summary in the intro could mislead the reader into believing that Northern Ireland tried out life in the Free State for a while before packing its bags and going back to London.

I can see two solutions:

1. Keep the anon's wording of "remained in the United Kingdom"
2. Use a slightly modified version of O Fenian's preferred version. Instead of "rejoined the United Kingdom", say "technically left and rejoined the United Kingdom"

Personally, I prefer my suggested "technically left and rejoined" wording, because with the addition of only 3 extra words it conveys a much richer picture of what happened than either of two disputed versions. Can anyone see a better way of succinctly accommodating both perspectives? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

We could add lots of little unimportant technical details such as that there was actually Southern Ireland etc., but for a brief introductory paragraph covering the history of Ireland over hundreds of years I don't think that your modification is logical. 84.226.43.118 (talk) 04:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

You believe that you are right; O Fenian believes themself to be right. Both of your perspectives are based on a shared understanding of what happened, and the two of you differ only on the significance of the detail. For the sake of a mere three extra words (only 21 characters), why not accommodate both perspectives? My suggested wording may not be the best possible wording, but there must be some way to bridge the gap. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

How about something along the lines of "....Under the Act of XYZ Ireland became a free state and xix counties of the Province of Ulster exercised their right to opt our of that state to become Northern Ireland and thus remained within the United Kingdom" --Snowded (talk) 05:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

My so-called misleading version was much less misleading than the version which replaced it, which read "Following the war of independence, Ireland was split into two parts in 1922: the newly independent Irish Free State which left the United Kingdom, and Northern Ireland which remained in the United Kingdom". Now this IP editor (and similar ones) are clearly knowledgeable about Ireland and this article, and know that the sentence is not correct as it leaves out key facts, which are obviously inconvenient. At its time of creation, the Irish Free State covered the entire island, and it was the Unionists opting out which caused the "split into two parts". This subtle yet important difference should not be glossed over. The second option above is one which most closely resembles reality, unlike the spin of the first one. O Fenian (talk) 05:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Aha - You've let your raison d'etre slip - a line intentionally inserted to place the blame firmly on unionists for causing the split. The 'blame' can be equally (if not more so, but lets not go there) shared with nationalists for starting a civil war and demanding independence in the first place!!! 84.226.43.118 (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, and btw O Fenian's 'raison d'etre' might more productively be continued at the Existentialism Talk Page. RashersTierney (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

⬅ So are you agreeing to my suggestion? --Snowded (talk) 06:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No, BrownHairedGirl's. Your version has a problem or two, namely that it was the administrative sub-division called Northern Ireland that opted out, the extent of which was supposed to be determined by the ill-fated Boundary Commission. That Northern Ireland remained comprised of six of Ulster's counties (and not more or less of them) was due to the failure of the Boundary Commission, but your wording tends to present this as a fait accompli. O Fenian (talk) 06:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Except in a legalistic or technical sense, the real opt-out occurred in 1912 with the formation and effective arming of the Ulster Volunteers. You can throw into that mix the party political jockeying at Westminster (Bonar Law et al.), the Imperialist project (Walter Long et al.) and naked sectarianism (take your pick). If you're looking for a founding 'event' for partition, that's your starting point. RashersTierney (talk) 09:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The real opt-out occurred in 1912 with the formation and effective arming of the Ulster Volunteers? Except in a legalistic or technical sense, O Fenian is correct. --Domer48_'fenian' 09:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The sentence currently reads "Following the war of independence, Ireland was split into two parts in 1922: the newly independent Irish Free State, and Northern Ireland (which rejoined the United Kingdom)."

That implies that Northern Ireland was created in 1922, when in fact partition occurred the previous year, in 1921. AS the article Northern Ireland says "The island of Ireland was partitioned in 1921 under the terms of the Government of Ireland Act 1920".

So the bigger problem here is that the date of partition is wrong. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The date of the creation of the administrative subdivisions is not really that relevant. O Fenian (talk) 14:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

so why is a 48 hour period relevant if those dates don't matter!!! 84.226.43.118 (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Ive changed "rejoined" to "remained part of". Clearly the previous wording was totally incorrect so it had to go. There may be a better way of saying this which can be agreed on, but atleast its not wrong. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes it was. Please do not make unilateral changes while discussion is taking place. O Fenian (talk) 14:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I support changing it to suggestion one then. Im sorry but the wording is currently VERY misleading and such inaccurate statements should not be allowed to remain for too long. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:09, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone here actually defending the grossly misleading statement that Northern Ireland "rejoined" the United Kingdom? when infact every history book clearly says the South left? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please learn history before making incorrect statements and edits. The Irish Free State covered the entire island, and Northern Ireland opted out. The current discussion is about how this fact can be covered without being misleading, rather than censored. O Fenian (talk) 14:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

For 48 hours!! 84.226.43.118 (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Its not censorship its about accuracy and the current wording is grossly misleading and incorrect. Ofcourse debate about how to describe the whole situation and word it better is fine but something thats simply wrong should not be left in the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Technically its right, but it could give the wrong impression hence the debate --Snowded (talk) 14:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Is BritishWatcher actually saying that Northern Ireland was not temporarily part of the Irish Free State and independent of the United Kingdom? It is essential to note this as part of the unionist perspective. They were not just idle pawns while all this was going on, their opt out was a conscious decision that allowed them to remain in control of their own destiny. It was not a case of the British Government saying "we're creating a Free state but you will remain part of the UK", the unionists remained in control of their own destiny. O Fenian (talk) 14:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No, Northern Ireland was never independent of the United Kingdom in any normal sense of that meaning. As mentioned before, it was a legal manoeuvre 84.226.43.118 (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Im saying the current wording is very misleading which is why i changed it. Im sorry for jumping in but this looked like something that was going to take quite some time to reach agreement on to word the whole thing, so a change to something more clear whilst such a debate was going on seemed to be like a good idea. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian's argument against 1921 as the date of partition seems to be that it was the creation of "administrative subdivisions", which is the sort of term normally used for local councils or government regions created for administrative purposes under one political authority. In fact the two entities created under the Government of Ireland Act 1920 had both their own judicial system and parliaments with legislative powers, neither of which are charcteristics of an administrative subdivision. If you want to claim that they were purely "administrative" (a term which normally implies that there is no elected political control), please provide references.

Meanwhile please note that 1921 is given as the date of partition in the article Northern Ireland. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I see you have provided no references for your new wording. Swings, roundabouts, apples, oranges. O Fenian (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

From Dáil Éireann - Volume 3 - 22 December, 1921 DEBATE ON TREATY, a few quotes from Deputy Seán MacEntee (anti-Treaty), who said:

• "There you have, first of all, the real purpose of this clause, which is to ensure that Ulster— secessionist Ulster—should remain a separate unit;"
• "You cannot show me anything there, and I say as England has found it profitable to subsidise the Ameer of Afghanistan, she will find it much more profitable to subsidise Northern Ireland to remain out and weaken the Free State";
• "There you have the real purpose of that clause—not to bring the six counties into Ireland, but to enable them to remain out of Ireland."

Emphasis added by me, but the quotes are verbatim, as you can check from the link. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not answer the question I did ask, other than the one I did not? O Fenian (talk) 18:15, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I answered with whatever relevant I found in the Treaty debate. I'll have to check other sources to find a reference for the "technical" adjective, but don't have those to hand and will be busy next week. How are you getting on with finding references for the "administrative" adjective. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

My point was that you claim administrative division is unsourced, yet changed it to just division which is equally unsourced and does not take into account the complexity of the situation. O Fenian (talk) 20:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be no disagreement that there was a division of some sort under the 1920 act. However, the characterisation of it as adminstrative divison makes a judgement on the nature of that division, and that judgement needs a source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Deadlock

This is a situation I have seen happen before on Irish articles. The underlying facts are agreed, and clear references are available for them. There is no dispute over the full explanation of them further down the article; all the argument is over a brief summary, which by the very nature of a summary cannot convey all the nuances.

There is plenty of scope for a compromise wording which may be slightly less brief, but which provides an indication to the reader that the underlying situation is more complicated than be conveyed in a short summary. I have no particular attachment to the form of words I proposed, just a desire to see some wording agreed which roughly accommodates the various perspectives at play here and indicates to the reader that they will need more detail to fully understand what happened.

Unfortunately, the two sides are deadlocked: both cling to their preferred wording and resist any possibility of a compromise wording. So I think the only solution is to open an RFC, which I will do below. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:24, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I was in favour of your proposed wording, I said so unambiguously! O Fenian (talk) 20:06, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl - I am against your 'compromise' proposal, because they are essentially no different than what "O' Fenian" initially has said, and still implies the same PoV that he wants. Adding the word 'technically' may be correct to an extent, but is still misleading in a summary for someone who knows nothing about Ireland. O'Fenian has made it clear that he wants the article to imply that partition was the fault of unionists, and for you to add one more word in detail does no more to remove that PoV. Why in a summary are there no details about many of the other events during the Viking and Norman ages, but for this particular event you feel compelled to add minute and misleading detail. The situation was straightforward and very simple:

• Before partition in 1921/22 : North in UK, South in UK
• After partition in 1921/22 : North in UK, South not in UK

Therefore, north stays and south leaves. In a summary (that is supposed to be simple) why confuse and mislead the reader with unimportant technicalities that are absolutely meaningless in the long run? For a summary, keep the key facts that allow a new reader to understand what happened. Who cares about the meaningless details in a transitional process when all that's important is the end result. The added benefit here is that you don't have any PoV implications.

Also, Brown Haired girl, I don't see on Misplaced Pages that it's necessary to always 'compromise' - sometimes certain people want to imply a position to push a zealous political agenda, and that is something that is very hard to compromise with (and should not be done) 84.227.194.57 (talk) 23:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

:I have, however, no problem with the proposal from User:Snowded 84.227.194.57 (talk) 23:23, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It's easy to explain this issue in an essay, but the point here is write a summary. Snowded's proposal is a lot more verbose than mine, but you criticise my suggestion for adding what you call "minute and misleading detail". I have no objection to Snowded's proposal if editors are happy to agree on adding that many words, but I do wish you would make up your mind whether you regard a fuller explanation as "minute and misleading detail" or as "no problem".

You object to compromise, but so far as I can see bot sides here are taking a position compatible with a political agenda. That's why the wikipedia way is to find a solution which reflects both POVs, rather than just one.--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree with you Brown Haired girl. Said I shouldn't compromise, but sort of did because I was being too nice and polite. Snowded's proposal is definitely better than the ones from both you or O'Fenian in terms of NPoV, however, you are completely right in saying that it is too longwinded for a summary. Therefore, I would like to restate my original opinion that only the simple 'remained' is acceptable. 84.226.20.116 (talk) 20:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Remained part of the UK seems to be more widely used. The compromise is ok too though...--IrishMonarchist (talk) 20:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Summarising what happened to Northern Ireland under the Anglo-Irish Treaty

In the discussion above under the heading Misleading Description of Partition, editors are unable to agree on a form of summary wording to use in the lead section of this article to describe the fate of Northern Ireland under the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

One side insists that it is right to say that Northern Ireland "remained in the United Kingdom"; the other prefers to say that it "rejoined the United Kingdom". From what I can see, neither side is wrong, but it appears that the reality is more complex than is implied by either of those short phrases.

The underlying facts do not seem to be in dispute, and are set out in detail both later this article at Ireland#History and also in Northern Ireland#History. The treaty provided that Northern Ireland would become part of the Irish Free State, but would have the right to opt out and become part of the United Kingdom. There appears to be agreement that there was clear expectation on all sides that it would do so, and this was done immediately after the treaty came into effect. The whole process, which involved the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland travelling overland to London to personally present the documents, took 48 hours. I have seen no suggestion either in this discussion or in related articles that at any point in those 48 hours the Irish Free State had any practical control of affairs within Northern Ireland.

So I suggested a compromise wording: "technically left and rejoined the United Kingdom". That has been rejected by both sides, with demands for references for the use of the adjective "technically". I will in due course burrow in my box of history books, but I am not persuaded that a precise reference is really needed for an adjective such as this.

My suggested compromise may be a poor one, and I can see that for example "legally" might be an alternative adjective, or maybe some wholly different construct might be better. I hope that outside editors may be able to suggest some form of words which succinctly conveys enough of both perspectives on what happened for the reader to see that the underlying picture may be more complex than can be conveyed in a summary, and that they should read on for the full picture.

I will not be around much in the next week, but have launched this RFC in the hope that other editors can help build an agreement. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I never rejected your proposed wording, I said unambiguously that I was in favour of it. O Fenian (talk) 20:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm very sorry: that crucial point got lost in all the volumes of discussion.  :(

Hopefully the RFC will help to generate some wider consensus, so that it's not just me and thee agreeing. :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, thank you. I am also in favour of any proposed wording that makes it obvious that an opt out from the Irish Free State took place, rather than just the misleading version where "Northern Ireland remained part of the UK". O Fenian (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, my understanding of the situation. What is today Republic of Ireland, broke away from the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

That seems accurate to me, but omits any mention of Northern Ireland. Is that acceptable? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Mention NI if ya's want, but NI remained a part of the UK. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source that says that NI "rejoined" the UK? The reality is that it remained in the UK, despite the technicalities desperately being emphasised here. Mooretwin (talk) 09:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

No. That is technically inaccurate. The UK of GB and I ceased to exist; NI became part of a new entity called "The UK of GB and NI". It couldn't remain in something that ceased to exist! Sarah777 (talk) 00:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. By that logic, Ethiopia, say, ceased to exist when Eritrea gained independence. Or Pakistan ceased to exist when Bangladesh gained independence. Mooretwin (talk) 09:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The state remained the United Kingdom. The GB and I to GB and NI is merely a technicality. --IrishMonarchist (talk) 20:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland was in the UKGBI between 1922 til 1927 when UK was renamed as UKGBNI. So the question is, surely, whether NI remained in the UKGBI in 1922. Scroggie (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

True. It didn't because the UKGBI ceased to exist except in name. The Kingdom of Ireland most certainly wasn't the "United Kingdom" after partition! This was recognised by the British 1927 Act. Sarah777 (talk) 11:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

To avoid your so-called "technical innacuracies" I suggest saying that Northern Ireland "remained in the union with Great Britain" 84.227.57.175 (talk) 04:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I happened by a statement that uses the phrase remained under British sovereignty in the context of NI. This is in the Judgment of the Court of Human Rights in the "Lawless v Ireland" case in 1961 which states on page 4 of the judgment in the "As to the Facts" section: "Under the Treaty establishing the Irish Free State, signed on 6th December 1921 between the United Kingdom and the Irish Free State, six counties in the North of the Island of Ireland remained under British sovereignty." Considering that the case was defended by the then Attorney General of Ireland Aindrias Ó Caoimh one could reasonably expect the facts to be as viewed by the state itself. Perhaps using that phrase would be preferable to any UK word use and you even have a decent reference to substantiate it and those are lawyers speaking. ww2censor (talk) 04:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

⬅ Looks like a strong possibility --Snowded (talk) 05:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

There was a time when states didn't have official names but managed to exist nonetheless. The Statement: "Belfast is a city in the United Kingdom" was as true in 1920 as it was in 1923 and as it is now. As a matter of English there's no ambiguity in saying that Northern Ireland remained in the UK.

Legally speaking it's the rules of state succession that determine whether the 1923 UK was the same state as the 1920 UK. At the time there was no disagreement that Great Britain (with or without Northern Ireland) was to be the successor state of the UK of Great Britain and Ireland. Thus it is was the Free State that joined the League of Nations as an entirely new entity while the UK remained a member.

Interesting interpretations of the Anglo-Irish treaty aside, the Free State never had control over Northern Ireland. Southern Irish troops (we didn't have tanks) didn't march in one day and out the next. Northern Ireland never re-joined the UK, because for all practical purposes, they never left. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 12:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protect?

The article seems to be suffering from excessive IP vandalism, which is not part of the current content dispute. Should the page be semi-protected again? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 18:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I have semi-protected it for 3 months. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you should stop winning about it, theirs nothing you can do about it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.199.204.1 (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Rejoined or Remained

Did NI "rejoin" the UK or did it "remain with" the UK at the time of Irish independence? I thought it remained part of the UK, but if you can prove otherwise please fell free to revert my change. LevenBoy (talk) 20:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Silver lock? (formerly "New Gaelic")

I can't remove this nonsense since this page is edit protected so can someone else remove that Irish/"new Gaelic" rubbish. "Eireann" is the genitive form of Eire (sorry no fadas on mobile device). There is no such thing as "New Gaelic". --89.101.220.70 (talk) 19:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Already done, but I'm going to take the role of GoodDay here and say get an account! Other editors can't always do stuff for you.MITH 19:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Silver lock. Even if I signed up I couldn't have made the change.

What is the reason of the silver lock? They make sense on pages like Halloween around the end of October each year. However, I've seen more signed-in users valdalise and war over this page - and add uncited nonsense, albeit in good faith (as in this case) - than IPs.

Keeping a silver lock on a page indefinitely for flimsy reasons run contrary to the goals of this encyclopedia (the whole "encyclopedia that any can edit" thing). Unless there is a good reason for it, it should be removed. --89.101.220.70 (talk) 11:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You can. You just have to register, make 10 edits and wait 4 days from the registering date and then you are a confirmed user meaning you can then edit as you please. It is protected to stop vandalism from ips such as this. It happened all the time before it was protected.MITH 11:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Translation: most people viewing the 467th most visited article on "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" cannot edit it.

Every page experiences test edits from new users, that is no reason to indefinitely block edit access to any page. Can you show that this page experienced more sustained vandalism that other pages? --Rannpháirtí anaithnid (talk) 16:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I dunno I'm hardly an admin who has to think about these whether a page should be protected or not. Are you the above IP editor or someone else?MITH 16:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Mirror image, added content from previous fork.

I've merged some of the content from the Republic of Ireland Article which was being used as a POV fork. The RoI Article now covers the RoI. With some of the content which was taken from this article being placed on the RoI, I've now replaced it. There is some duplication, which I will address and a number of Article names will have to be change from RoI to Ireland. Help with this would be welcome. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Ireland articles
• Top-importance Ireland articles
• B-Class Ireland articles of Top-importance
• All WikiProject Ireland pages
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists