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====Cathedral of Our Lady of Tortosa====
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{{*mp}}... that the ''']''' of ] ''(pictured)'' in present day ] was fortified into a small castle in the 13th century, and is now one of the best-preserved religious structure of the ] era?
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:*''Comment'': Hook length = 196 characters if ''"(pictured)"'' is not counted.
<small>Created by ] (]). Nominated by ] (]) at 16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)</small>
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Candidate entries
Articles created/expanded on July 25
James F. Bowman
... that journalist James F. Bowman wrote a grandiose poetry review for The Californian magazine, then published an anonymous review in the Dramatic Chronicle savaging his earlier review?
... that Abdel Latif Boghdadi resigned of his position as vice president of Egypt because Nasser adopted a more Soviet Union style system for Egypt rather than closer United States relations?
... that in the Dutch children's book Pluk van de Petteflet a group of grown-ups get intoxicated from eating mysterious berries, a scene praised by educators?
... that Roman commander Gaius Considius Longus was killed by his own men during the Roman civil war as he attempted to escape Caesar's victorious forces?
... that Felix Salten's novel Bambi, A Life in the Woods, originally published in Austria in 1923, is considered by critics to be the first environmental fiction novel to be published?
ALT1:Felix Salten's 1923 novel Bambi, A Life in the Woods was not only adapted into the famous 1941 Walt Disney animated film, Bambi, but also two Russian live-action films in which the animals change to humans and back again?
Alt hook is too long (221 characters). Fact of the first hook checked and sourced to offline references - accepted AGF. Nice work on that expansion. Regards SoWhy09:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment from nominator: all three bolded articles could qualify as DYK on their own. Is there precedent for a triple-nomination?--Blargh29 (talk) 21:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that special Great Western Railway wagons were designed to carry goods as diverse as boilers, cattle, fish, fruit, long girders, gunpowder(wagon pictured), kaolin, motor cars, and sheets of glass?
... that the 1969 Jefferson Airplane psychedelic folk-rock song "Good Shepherd" is derived from an early 1800s hymn from a backwoods preacher and a 1930s gospel blues recording by a blind axe murderer?
Length, date and online hook refs verified; offline hook refs accepted in good faith. Nice article, you should take it to GA. --Bruce1ee14:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the United States’ largest stand of shinnery oaks (Quercus havardii) occupies 2 to 3 million hectares of the southern Great Plains, are hundreds or thousands of years old, and they are only 1 to 2 meters tall?
Comment: Due to the similarity between this nomination and the Arnhold's Mouse Lemur nomination immediately below, you may combine the two DYKs into one (if that's possible). The hook for such a combination could read: "... that both Morgot Marsh's Mouse Lemur and Arnhold's Mouse Lemur are both separated from their closest sister taxa by species barriers formed by the ranges of other Mouse lemurs?
Should it be taxon? Although (I think) I understand the hooks, I would really welcome their rewriting into plain English. Is there nothing else those lemurs are remarkable in (forgive me, I know nothing about this field, so as many other WP readers) ? Materialscientist (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
It sounds like Long Shrift addressed the "sister taxa" issue below. As for more remarkable hooks, sorry, but we're limited. Only one paper has been published on them (that I can find). They are both newly described species to science. I guess we could use this alternate:
Taxa would be appropriate as the two species from which the subjects are separated are different, though using "relatives" rather that "sister taxa" might make it more comprehensible to non-biologists (if slightly less accurate). You could also drop "by species barriers formed by" if that is problematical. Finally, there are too many "both"s in the combined nomination "that both...are both". Long Shrift (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I guess that could work. I was hoping to use the term "species barrier" to encourage people to read up on speciation. But that hook should be fine. –Visionholder (talk) 14:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The involvement of the Australian troops seems to be not as well-supported as that of the New Zealanders. Also, from reading the article, the massacre was of the men of the village (the women and children having been expelled). Long Shrift (talk) 09:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the old rank of mate was revived in 1912 as part of the Selborne-Fisher scheme for the accelerated promotion of promising enlisted personnel to become engineering officers, and ranked with, but after sub-lieutenants and messed separately?
I assume the article you are submitting is Selborne-Fisher scheme since the others are ineligible. In which case, the hook statement is only partly cited, and the part that is cited is not supported by the supplied reference. Gatoclass (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Why does he deserve an article in wikipedia, and even be on the frontpage. Dont think he is notable enough for wikipedia. -Pedro (talk) 10:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that Agaricus albolutescens, unlike other species of Agaricus, discolors a tawny-brown, rather than merely yellow, and has chocolate-brown free gills?
use a synonym to avoid "build...built" (construct,manufacture,assemble). What is meant by the "first American ship"? Is this not just the "first ship"? Long Shrift (talk) 10:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Fixed, and it mean just that, the first American ship, as the area had been inhabited for a long time by Native Americans who built canoes. It is also possible, and I didn't check be cause the sources say American, but the British may have already built a ship as well due to the long presence of the Hudson's Bay Company in the region. Aboutmovies (talk) 21:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
"first sailing ship" (as stated in the Star of Oregon article)? It wasn't "American" as Oregon wasn't a state at the time. Long Shrift (talk) 21:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The people who built it were Americans, not to mention that is what the "Dictionary of Oregon History" says American, and we are not really free to disregard what the sources say (see here), (this is even vaguer). As to sailing ship, as I wrote above, the British may have constructed a sailing ship there before this ship. In general this tends to show the state of affairs of vessels in the region: sailing ship built at Astoria (fort was American owned but the employees were not Americans) in 1811, thus the Star of Oregon could not be the first sailing vessel, but it can be, and the sources say so, the first American vessel (or first American sailing vessel if you like). Aboutmovies (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that Ilari Sahamies, a professional poker player, lost a total of over US$3 million playing online poker while drunk, and more than $700,000 in a single day?
... that psychologistSidney W. Bijou wouldn't punish his 15-year old son for a joyriding arrest as he "had punishment enough", his son recalling that "it can pay off to have a psychologist for a father"?
... that Mahesh Rangarajan is a researcher, author and historian who analysed present-day conservation conflicts in India and found their roots in India’s colonial past?
Alternative: ... that for over 10 years Garboldisham Windmill(pictured) was the only post mill in Norfolk? (The source doesn't give a precise date for the restoration of Thrigby Windwill - it was bought in 1981 but the new sails weren't installed until 2003 - but this article states 1984.) Long Shrift (talk) 09:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
If you want to persue that line, Garboldisham was the only post mill in Norfolk from 1960 (when Tottenhill Mill was demolished) to 1984 (when the buck was erected at Thrigby Mill). Mjroots (talk) 12:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
It was created in userspace in 2008. Per the instructions, an article is created once it's moved to mainspace, so indeed the page was only started today. –Juliancolton | 05:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
My mistake. Another issue, the article should be synchronized with the hook on 6 major hurricanes (meaning names and brief description) - ideally add a ref. to the lead covering all 6. Also, I would quickly expand the lead to describe all 6 (now only 3). Materialscientist (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
... that a former Bear Stearns executive and magazine mogul (pictured) are part of the November Nine trying to prevent logger Darvin Moon from winning millions of dollars?
Unless I'm missing something, the picture is of some unconnected logging activity so has no direct relevance to the article (a generic picture of an executive or several bears' bottoms would be equally irrelevant). Long Shrift (talk) 09:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the hook is really related to the November Nine concept at all, is it? I mean, they are all trying to win millions of dollars; no player is ever thinking of just trying to take down one particular guy. The hook should be more along the lines of "... that nine players are vying for the top spot of the WSOP 2009 and the $x million first prize?" Gary King (talk) 16:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Removed the part about "a coalition" but other than that, the statement is entirely accurate. A bear Stearns executive and President of a magazine are trying to prevent another person from winning millions of dollars. Yes, they are also trying to prevent one another from winning millions as well, but a hook is designed to get people to read further. Your proposal is boring and not a real hook, it is a statement of fact that gives all the key information, not an invitation to read more.---Balloonman19:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
That still gives three "article"s in the same sentence. If you wish to avoid revealing that Bigipedia is a comedy show you could try: ... that the "Bee Whisperer" entry on Bigipedia was inspired by information found using the random article function on Misplaced Pages?". I am unsure of the regulations (if any) regarding links to internal functions (Special:Random), perhaps somebody else could comment. Long Shrift (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm happy to go with "... that the "Bee Whisperer" entry on Bigipedia was inspired by information found using the random article function on Misplaced Pages?" as a suitable link, but I do also agree that maybe someone needs to see if I should use the "Random article" link. If not, we can just remove it and stay with the new hook. ISD (talk) 06:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I can accept that, although a quote needs a source (in principle), and I don't have a source for this quote. I think it's cute and more subtly 'hook-ish' to just leave it unquoted, but I'll let the others decide. Crum375 (talk) 17:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Should either be capitalized as "Invariant Set Postulate" or uncapitalized as "invariant set postulate" (there aren't enough Google references to tell which is more popular). Although "Invariant" is the first word of the article title, we don't capitalize for that reason; see I6. Art LaPella (talk) 01:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The whole article is based on a single paper which has been submitted for publication in a non-prestigious journal (not even published). I wonder why is it not speedily deleted. Materialscientist (talk) 10:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
AFAICT, the primary paper ("The Invariant Set Postulate: A New Geometric Framework ") is marked on arXiv as "Accepted for publication in Proceedings of the Royal Society A". Proceedings of the Royal Society A is hardly a "non-prestigious journal". Article also now includes at least one secondary reference (in New Scientist, also a quite sound reference, I can add an extra link to the ref). However the article is not long enough anyway and it would probably be best to wait until some buzz (i.e. more secondary references) is generated by the actual publication of the paper. Circeus (talk) 15:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Not sure I understand this. I make it 1650 characters, which is above the min size. Accepting that this is discretionary, how many would you like? Also, I don't understand what is meant by "wait". Are you saying leave it at its present size and then expand five fold later? Clearly it will expire as a nom soon. BenMacDui19:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
You are excused (although I am curious to know how this phenomenon is measured - volume? duration.?...) I have added a bit more in the meantime in any case :) BenMacDui21:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Let me explain my harshness: Proc Roy Soc. used to be among the top journals, >60 years ago, but these years and decades its impact factor, 1.7 (this year), is low, even for physics. This is just a note (yes, there are famous papers published in low-ranking journals). More important however is that the article is based on a single unpublished paper. "New scientist" is no support here. Media is known to pick up anything fancy in science, even if it is plain wrong. I wish you understand how premature it was to publish such idea, at this stage, at WP mainframe (promotion of potentially wrong science. WP is so popular on Google. "Invariant set postulate" is now returning <10 results, but very soon will be picked up by many web sites.). There are so many such theories around and publishing one gives a precedent to others. I do suggest deleting the article itself. "Wait" might mean to revive the article when it receives significant support in the serious scientific circles. Materialscientist (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Your desire for caution has its merits, but let me try to understand what your are saying. You are suggesting that Proc Roy Soc. is not a "serious" journal, that "New Scientist" is prone to publishing material that is "plain wrong" and that (leaving aside the reputation of the author himself) that Robert Spekkens of the Perimeter Institute and Bob Coeke of Oxford University are not in "serious scientific circles" either. Accepting that our singularly low standards elsewhere are not an excuse for replicating them in mathematics, don't you think this is setting the bar just a little high? What exactly is it that you are worried about? The article does not assert that the paper is a fundamental truth, just that it is an interesting idea. BenMacDui16:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
If you want my professional opinion on PRS, new scientist, and media, please ask me on my email, not here, tweaking my words won't do. My major point is the topic has no importance yet - base paper is unpublished; search counts low (google counts=8); even if published, WP needs secondary sources, one primary paper in PRS is not enough to create an encyclopedia entry. As to Spekkens and Coeke, their quotes do sound like a chat, rather than professional opinion. Don't get me wrong - the idea might be valid, but as we don't know this yet, the whole story does sound like rumors. Materialscientist (talk) 00:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
It is clear we don't agree and I don't see any purpose in repeating the reasons. You are of course at liberty to propose that the article be deleted, although I think we both know that's unlikely to succeed. As to how this affects this DYK I leave to others to decide. BenMacDui15:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
... that when hired as CEO of Rocket Chemical Company, John Barry changed its name to WD-40 to match its primary product, whose name came from "water displacement, formulation successful in 40th attempt"?
... that Venum Black has always been a fan favorite throughout his whole wrestling career and has never become a rudo before even though he has been wrestling for 17 years?
I don't see anything clear in the article on "always being a fan favorite" and "never being a rudo". Another concern is most sources in the article are unreliable (including luchawiki). Materialscientist (talk) 00:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
... that Barbara Margolis, creator of a Rikers Island restaurant training program, was held in such regard by inmates that her car was returned after prisoners learned it was stolen from a prison lot?
Comment: 2404 characters of prose text. This article uses a shortened footnote format for the inline citations. Consult the Sources section for full bibliographic information for the citations.
You can question it's availability as it's a magazine but to question it's reliability is just outright wrong. There aren't many reliable sources online that covers wrestling, even less than mentions an event that happened in 1981. I could check but this is the first time a printed source has not been good enough for DYK. MPJ-DK (talk) 04:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
The nomination text overstates the achievements of the group. They discovered evidence of the deer that suggested two separate herds were likely to exist. They did not discover two herds. Long Shrift (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Article: A survey in 1991 found that the species had already become extinct in over 95 percent of its former range, largely as a result of intensive hunting and extensive deforestation.
Source: ... a survey in 1991 found that the species had already become extinct in over 95 percent of its former range, largely as a result of intensive hunting and extensive deforestation ...
The tenses and agreement make the sentence a little awkward. If tag team is singular it should be "its ring attire" or if plural they "have been criticized". As regards tenses, "was criticized" sits better with "combined" (assuming tag team to be singular) as the team no longer exists. Also, "combined" might be better replaced with "mixed" to avoid the implication that the bow ties were incorporated into the thongs. Long Shrift (talk) 13:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
After staying up late to finish an article, I'm always tempted to submit the DYK nomination right away. This is a good example of why it should be done after some rest. I agree on all three points. How about "... that Well Dunn, a professional wrestling tag team, was criticized for its ring attire, which mixed bow ties and thongs?" GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand something, the article was created on 17 july with ~1000 characters and now contains ~2800, thus neither new nor 5x expanded. Also, expansion is done by several (partly anonimous) editors so it is hard to understand who has done what. Why is it in "22 July" section? Materialscientist (talk) 10:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the Cathedral of Our Lady of Tortosa(pictured) in present day Syria was fortified into a small castle in the 13th century, and is now one of the best-preserved religious structure of the Crusader era?
Comment: Hook length = 196 characters if "(pictured)" is not counted.
This is a very interesting article. I have a few concerns about the hook, though. The statement in the article about the location of the camp does not have an inline citation directly following it. Reference #1, which comes one sentence later, also does not state that the camp is under a bridge. In addition, because the exact number is not given, perhaps adding "approximately" before "140 members" would be appropriate. GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Hm. toured the now-infamous sex offenders' encampment under the Julia Tuttle Causeway, from the first paragraph in the first citation, and there's a subtitle that calls them the "Julia Tuttle Bridge sex offenders". The title of the 5th citation states the colony is under a bridge. I added the "approximately". --Moni3 (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the hospital where Barack Obama is prohibited by U.S. federal law from confirming his birthdate or that he was born at the hospital even though his birth home address was published in two newspapers?
This article is a well research 28k article that is over 20 times the required length. It is also less than 1 hour old, meeting the required newness. The person related to the article is controversial but the article should not be because no politics are discussed. User F203 (talk) 22:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
No! That article is full of fighting that even ArbCom had to get involved. Don't let Obama-haters and Obama-lovers come to DYK and fight their battles here! User F203 (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Oppose. That a hospital will not "confirm or deny" something is true of EVERYONE, not just Barack Obama. --guyzero | talk23:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Oppose per Guyzero (funny seeing you around wikipedia); this is blatant POV-pushing and pandering to exhaustively debunked conspiracy theories. → ROUX₪23:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, it does seem facially neutral. My concerns would be, per Guyzero, it is par for the course in Hawaii, and if you put this on the main page, it will be a feeding frenzy for the birthers and their opponents. Can't we just say that his parents met in a Russian course at UHM?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This potential DYK is true of any person born in the US. It is not remarkable about Obama or anyone else for that matter. How about the Baskin Robbins bit? That was news to me. --guyzero | talk23:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
It is not neutral on its face; it is deliberately implying there is a specific federal law preventing access to Barack Obama's birth cert. HIPAA affects all healthcare providers in the USA. → ROUX₪23:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not my fight, and F203 hasn't sent in his retainer to hire me as counsel, so I'm going to sit back and watch. Popcorn?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
(ec) Interesting that this comes up, because just today there was an edit war over Obama's birth location at Natural born citizen of the United States. One user was blocked. Anyway, I have !voted for the article to be deleted, as it mostly seems to be either fringe sources, or unwarranted speculation/synthesis based on trivial sources. rʨanaɢ /contribs00:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The alt hook has been modified to add the required links. The alt hook is not related to the edit war because it has nothing to do about the birth controversy. User F203 (talk) 14:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Looks good. The bottom two images are causing the references section to scrunch up; do you think you could fix that? Thanks, NW(Talk)15:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't replicate the problem (Mac + Firefox), even by making the window about two inches wide. I have removed one image - does that help? BenMacDui19:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a {{clear}} tag to the See also section; hopefully that fixes it. Feel free to revert me if it breaks it for any other browser/monitor setting. NW(Talk)22:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Correction noted and Alt. hook given. But its endangered status is due to poaching only for its pod. Hence, IUCN has declared it as EN grade IV category.--Nvvchar (talk) 14:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I may have been unclear, sorry: the link to pod goes to a page listing all the possible entries for pod. The musk page does mention musk pods though, so the pod link is not required. Long Shrift (talk) 14:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
You could drop the link to pod or expand the link to musk to cover both musk and pod. (I think I've done it in the hook above). Long Shrift (talk) 14:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not so sure about this one. It's not really an encyclopedic stand-alone fact. Perhaps it could be worded differently, or replaced with something else entirely? –Juliancolton | 15:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Susan Fleming
... that despite his non-speaking persona in films, Ziegfield GirlSusan Fleming found Harpo Marx to be "a warm, fun, darling man to talk to", marrying in 1936 after she had proposed to him three times?
Stating what it didn't have seems strange unless it is unusual. Don't many smaller political parties fail to have candidates elected to parliament? Long Shrift (talk)
Maybe, the interesting fact is that they actually held a seat in Drammen. That's unusual for political parties of this type. Geschichte (talk) 16:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
It is? In Germany, sadly, such parties hold such seats without it being unusual. Undesired is the word I'd use. Is it the first such party to win such a seat in Norway? Or is there any thing special about this far-right party than there is with similar other such parties? I have to agree with Long Shrift that the hook is something that will make me ask "so what?" Regards SoWhy18:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
"are green on top"? (assuming the leaf doesn't have more than two sides). A shrub "of" the southern Appalachians probably reads better too. Long Shrift (talk) 13:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Changed "in" to "of" as suggested. Thanks, Long Shrift. "Top" is not that accurate, though, as most leaves do not lay flat with the green side facing up. --PFHLai (talk) 15:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The hook is 231 characters (should be <200) and is not supported by any ref in the article. Besides, I do oppose such nominations and suggest withrawing it. Materialscientist (talk) 06:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The hook is shorter and now referenced in-line. I don't righly understand what is inherently wrong with this proposal or why I should withdraw it. It's a great set of poems, it's very popular, it's been reprinted in a wonderful, illustrated hardback edition by probably the most important literary publishing company in the Netherlands. If editors are squeamish concerning the word 'rectal,' well, you could take that out--though that would damage the hook. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 16:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I do not think putting this hook on the front page of WP is a good idea. As to the popularity of the book, it is limited to <300 of Dutch web-links, which is very low for "the most important literary publishing company in the Netherlands", and is simply an echo of the fact that the book is available for sale. Tussen haakjes, the hook is still unsupported - ref. 2 implies, but does not mention the book. Materialscientist (talk) 06:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't get it. If you're denying that De Bezige Bij is probably the most important etc., then that would be really strange. That publishing company has fewer than 300 Dutch weblinks? That makes no sense. Are you confusing the book and the company? As for the hook, the sources says "Komrij werd uitvinder van de patentwekker (ontstoken kaars in anus: vroeg opstaan – diep inbrengen)." In good English, "Komrij was the inventor of the patented alarm clock (lit candle in anus: rise early, insert deeply." I think that would support the hook, unless one would doubt that "Komrij werd uitvinder van de patentwekker" is a reference to "Komrij's patentwekker." (Literary critics sometimes play such word games.)
But just to make sure, I've made an extra link to the reference from de Volkskrant, which has now become reference nr. 3. That article paraphrases the design (in first person, as a literary trope--don't pay too much attention to it): "Het hoofddoel van mijn uitvinding is de productie van een wekker in de vorm van een kaars uit Gouda waarop met een potlood streepjes worden gezet waarbij elk streepje het verstrijken van een uur markeert (*) Het voordeel van mijn wekker is dat die eenvoudig in de aars van de slaper gestoken kan worden en wel zo diep dat het gewenste aantal uren nachtrust uit voornoemde aars van de slaper steekt (*) en dat de kaarsvlam na het opbranden van dit aantal uren de slaper wekt." I will be glad to translate that passage, but I'm sure there's enough occurrences of the word "anus," in Dutch and English, on this talk page. Let me assure you, it's quite literal.
To address your first point last: that's all you. Misplaced Pages non olet, and neither does poetry. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 01:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, thank you for your time and your comments, and maybe someone else can have a look at this nomination. We obviously have different opinions on what topics are suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Drmies (talk) 12:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with the suggestion (I prefer the second version, as the first version reveals something of the mechanics without the requirement to read the article). On the question of encyclopaedic merit, my personal threshold for inclusion would be far above the Misplaced Pages standard, so I can not usefully comment. Long Shrift (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
1995 Mayfest Storm
... that the 1995 Mayfest Storm was the costliest hailstorm ever to hit the United States when it occurred?
The hook does not really sound like anything worthy to point out. Maybe it should rather represent the fact that he was the first Republican from Bossier Parish, Louisiana in the House? Regards SoWhy18:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Tzippori Synagogue
... that the ancient Tzippori Synagogue was discovered by workers building a parking lot?
None of the refs seem to support the hook (and some article details). I also doubt in the notability of this article. Could be speadily deleted if you don't find more reliable refs. Materialscientist (talk) 00:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
You should look again at the article because i've added the appropriate citation and thanks for notifying me. Mario198710:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Ref. 4 now supports the details, but I do believe this article is not notable enough for en.WP. Also refs. 1-3 are short of useful information. Materialscientist (talk) 11:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Because search for "Insomnia Summer Show" returns <40 results, all local, in Romanian. This might be a good article for romanian wikipedia, but not for the english one (local event; we can't put every single sport competition on the main pages). Materialscientist (talk) 05:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
A perfectly good article and hook can't be promoted because the event was a local one! Good reason, you made my day! Mario198719:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Many parochial articles are featured in this section; the argument for the exclusion of this article on a geographical basis doesn't appear valid to me. Whether the article should be in the encyclopaedia at all is another question. Long Shrift (talk) 14:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the State Capitol of Pennsylvania is the third capitol building to be in Harrisburg, after the first one burned down in 1897 and the second (pictured) was deemed "ugly" by its designer?
... that the St. Johns River was Florida's first tourist attraction and the primary travel route to the more remote parts of the territory before it was developed?
... that the Renfrew County Courthouse was described as "one of the finest in Canada" by the County Atlas of 1881?
ALT1:... that the 1866 registry office in Renfrew County Courthouse was built to the fire-prevention specifications of the then-Chief Architect of Canada, who had an "obsession" with safety?
ALT2:... that the Renfrew County Courthouse won the 2009 People's Choice award from the Ontario Association of Architecture?
I'd describe this as POV given that the hook, which is being presented as truth, it the estimate of the protesters, and the hotel estimates it as considerably less. Suggest that we say $2.4-7 million.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The article has <1000 characters of prose. Please expand to at least 1500. Ref. 1 (supporting the hook) does not seem reliable source. Materialscientist (talk) 10:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
OK. I've expanded the prose and added several more references. The statement now rests on multiple sources, one of which is the above expert. I asked him if he felt this statement was reasonable (as opposed to "first online comic"), and he agreed. If another currently unknown comic surfaces later, we can update the article then, as we did for Where the Buffalo Roam. (In fairness, I should note that a user in talk disagrees with this, and so it may be necessary to change the hook to "among the first online comics". I feel this misrepresents the sources — we don't know of anything until a full five to six years latter. But it's up to you. I'll be away this weekend.) GreenReaper (talk) 07:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
... that Per Kristiansen has written booklets on orienteering themes such as training advice, psychological factors, and quality control during planning and accomplishment of competitions?
This article currently isn't long enough for Did You Know. Please see C1 for details. Also, I4 requires the article to be linked from the hook, like this:
I've expanded the article based on the USFWS press releases, and re-formatted it, is it up to snuff now? (I don't have the word-counting script installed, so I'm really not sure how close I am.) Beeblebrox (talk) 17:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The article is a bit too short of the standard. This topic can be easily expanded (e.g. kicking a referee after a taekwondo match at the last olympics, etc.) Materialscientist (talk) 01:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This does not qualify as "expand". As a minium, you should have explained the case and its consequences; and I was hoping to see more. Materialscientist (talk) 09:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
As opposed to by longitude. Technically parts of Alaska are the easternmost and westernmost by longitude, since parts of the state crosses over the 180 degrees mark. Once you go past 180, you are technically east. But if you're actually traveling east from the US, the Virgin Islands are farthest east. Ditto with the one in Guam -- if you're going west from the US, it's the farthest west. There's more at Extreme points of the United States --AW (talk) 05:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Q1 limits the visible length of a hook, not the length of wikitext. So ] wouldn't nudge the character count at all, and no such exception is necessary. Art LaPella (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
ALT3 "... that the westernmost and easternmost points in the United States by travel, in Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands, are both named "Point Udall" after brothers Mo and Stewart Udall?"
I definitely agree that my original hook needed a lot of clarification, and I also agree that you're hook is acceptable. Thanks for the suggestion! -- ]02:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The claim in the hook, "only LGBT immig. advocacy group in US" (ital. mine) probably originates from the organization's website. They are not the only one: , . Lionelt (talk) 03:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
They are indeed the only national organization doing this, full-disclosure Lionelt had prodded this for deletion as non-notable so I expanded it thus negating the need for deletion. -- Banjeboi18:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Article checks out in terms of length and history, but the hook is not terribly interesting in my opinion, even if female crewmembers are uncommon. I don't speak Turkish, so I can't verify the source, but from reading the article it sounds like the Turkish government rejected the idea of freeing the ship by force because there wasn't a legal precedent in Turkish law on handling captured pirates. If that is the case, that is a pretty interesting thing to note. Facts are cited in the article, but as said, sources are mostly Turkish, so I AGF. Strikehold (talk) 12:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
... that in 1904 the whitewash was removed from the west wall of St. George's church, Trotton leading to the discovery of an unprecedented 600-year-old wall painting (pictured)?
Why and why? "Discover" makes it clear they didn't know it was there before, which "reveal" doesn't. "Rare" is stronger than "unusual", and applies, so I don't see why not to use it. --Tango (talk) 00:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Revealing: "leading to the discovery of" if you prefer. The agent in "revealing" is the removal of the whitewash, but the removal of the whitewash can not be the discoverer in "to discover" Rare: rare is more specific than unusual. Most 600-year-old paintings (most paintings in fact) will be one-offs rather than rare. Rare implies scarcity but not uniqueness. Unusual is the term used in the source. Do with it what you will, I am making suggestions only. Long Shrift (talk) 01:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I see what you mean - "and ... was discovered." might work too. You've convinced me with "unusual", though, although I'll go a little stronger - the book I have says "unprecedented" (in England), so I'll go with that. --Tango (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
After further consideration, I've gone with "leading to the discovery of". Thanks for your help! --Tango (talk) 00:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Lavalin
... that after a massive expansion program in the 1980s, Lavalin's corporate bankers forced it to merge with its arch-rivals, SNC Group, becoming one of the largest civil engineering firms in the world?
"... that after Lavalin's massive expansion program of the 1980s, its corporate bankers forced a merger with the company's arch-rival, SNC Group, to form one of the largest civil engineering firms in the world?" (assuming it is the company and not the bankers that expanded). Long Shrift (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Pondberry
... that pondberry, an endangeredwetland shrub, produced fruit that was used long ago by children in the rural South as ammunition in toy pop guns made from hollowed-out elderberry stems?
Seems fine to me. Aren't the suggestions supposed to tweak the reader's interest? As a reader of DYK I'd like to see more entries like this. Long Shrift (talk) 23:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Note: As a clarification of this article's expansion, this revision of the article contains just 102 words of original prose, i.e. excluding quotes. In contrast, the current Historical overview section alone contains 486 words of prose. WilliamH (talk) 10:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
That's what the source says, but how is that possible? Why would the cemetery often be called by the exact same quote? Why wouldn't someone call it a "small Gothic jewel" instead of a "miniature Gothic gem"? Art LaPella (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC) Resolved by rewording. Art LaPella (talk) 05:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think you mean the chapel, not cemetery. I'm quoting the Historic American Buildings Survey (National Park Service), so if they say it's often called a "miniature Gothic gem", I have no reason to change their statement. It's from a RS. From WP:V - "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." APKthat's not my name03:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Notable? LA Times coverage seems somewhat minimal. More substantive coverage is provided by LABJ, but it's audience is specialized. Lionelt (talk) 00:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Alt hook: ... that the first Hof's Hut was opened by Harold Hofman on September 16, 1951, in Belmont Shore, the same day his son and current owner Craig Hofman was born?
"that the first Hof's Hut was opened in Belmont Shore by Harold Hofman on September 16, 1951, the same day that his son (the chain's current owner) Craig Hofman was born"? (so it doesn't read as Craig Hofman being Harold Hofman's current owner). Long Shrift (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Pocket Neighborhood
... that pocket neighborhood developments have included smaller homes around a landscaped common area to promote neighborly contact while keeping parking out of view?
... that the first newspaper in Hawaii(pictured) was printed by students of Lorrin Andrews in 1834, on a printing press brought to the islands in 1820?
Length and date good. But the ref actually says it is the largest "fruit fight", not "food fight". Maybe there is no real difference, but I could imagine, say a pie fight. Could the hook be reworded to say "fruit fight"? Rlendog (talk) 01:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
... that due to a violent intimidation campaign of the Federal Republican Party, no other political groups dared to contest the 1901 municipal elections in Las Villas, Cuba?
I know it's not sensational or anything, but it's a very nice new little article; surprised no one has commented yet. Perhaps someone can come up with a better tag version in an ALT1.--Pericles of Athens20:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
... that when The Falcon (now a public house) (pictured) was a town house owned by Sir Richard Grosvenor in 1643, it was the first building to enclose its portion of the Chester Rows?
... that, although Calgary Stampeders head coach Jack Hennemier was later fired halfway through his second season, he almost signed Forrest Gregg, "the finest player ever coached"?
Not enough citations in the article. You should strive for at least one cite per paragraph. Also, hook statement isn't clearly cited. Gatoclass (talk) 04:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
I've installed the DYK check script now, which is counting "1318 B (218 words)" in the last version before I had started to edit the article. It gives 6919 of prose now. Including the tables with the numbers, which are relevant to the topic of the article, and which are expected by readers (So Germany had how many people in 1895?), its over 10000. The total article size has grown more than tenfold since, 1,661 byte to 17,052 bytes. -- Matthead Discuß 03:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Your first edit to the page was in June. Articles should be expanded (from start to finish) within 5 days of nomination for DYK. We use scripts because they're an impartial way to evaluate prose size. The information in the tables isn't prose, and isn't even in complete sentences. Right now you're at 7059/1702 = 4.2 x prose expansion. This is in the discretionary range, but the article is unlikely to pass with that many unreferenced paragraphs. Shubinator (talk) 23:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
E-1 (rocket engine)
... that Rocketdyne's E-1rocket engine never saw production, but its rapid development and successful testing gave NASA the confidence to continue development of the F-1 that powered the Saturn V to the Moon?
or how about: ... that Rocketdyne's E-1rocket engine never saw production, but gave NASA confidence to develop the F-1 that powered the Saturn V to the Moon? I would also suggest repeating the link to F-1 in the body of the article, and elaborate on its influence on the F-1 (e.g. a quick comparison of the designs) and why it gave confidence in the F-1. And NASA pictures might be public domain (although Rocketdyne's might not be?) so a pic would be great. W Nowicki (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll be taking a trip the next week or so, and as such, may not be able to address any concerns about this article and its nomination, so I'll answer the questions that I foresee:
This article was created on the 17th but wasn't past 1,500 characters until later. A: As I've understood it, if an article is created as a stub, but is expanded to at least 1,500 regardless of whether it's 5x or not within the five or six or howevermany days you'll accept it for DYK, then it still counts as 'creation'. That's the vibe I've always gotten from this process, anyway.
The hook is kinda negative. A: Yes, it kinda is. Then again, you've probably seen Evony's ads, maybe wondering if you were going crazy, or if they were growing subtly more and more...racy. They are racy. A lot of people should identify with this hook for that reason. Anyway though, if you don't want to use the hook because if its quote or whatever, try:
... that a 2009 ad campaign for the MMORPGEvony featured depictions of scantily clad women, and the tagline "Save the Queen!", despite the fact that there is no queen to save in the game?
Comment: You'll find the hooked fact at the bottom of the Design section. To verify, you might want to look at this page directly; the link provided in the citation goes to the first page of the article instead.
Comment I'll be going away for a week starting tomorrow so if there are any problems please keep it on until I get back. Thanks,--Giants27 (c|s) 22:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Length, date, and source verified but the hook misleads as if the singer were under 19 yeas old and turned into a soccer player some times ago.--Caspian blue21:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
... that the CubanPeople's Party was barred from contesting the 1901 elections, as the government demanded the party produce a register of thousands of members in just two hours?
I am confused why the text in the timeline sections does not count. I am aware that WP:DYK#Selection criteria counts only prose and that lists of things do not count; however this is not a list. It is prose, a collection of complete sentences presented in bulleted list format to make it easier for the reader to understand. Prose is described in Prose#Poetry and prose as "composed of full sentences, usually divided into paragraphs, and then smaller segments known as meta-paragraphs." The timeline section of the nom'ed article is exactly that: complete sentences organized in bulleted paragraphs and meta-paragraphs. Would you please reconsider the size of this nomination? Thanks. Truthanado (talk) 17:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Each entry in the timeline has one sentence (a few have two). The timeline entries are not logically connected in the way sentences in a paragraph would be. But regardless of whether the timeline is technically counted as prose or not, the article doesn't sufficiently cover the topic. After reading the article, I'm still not sure what ICBS is. Shubinator (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Shubinator that the article is much too incomplete. Where does ref. 1 say about ERTMS? Another issue, ref. 1 is not user-friendly (requires registration for viewing). Materialscientist (talk) 00:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not intended that ref 1 says anything about ERTMS; it identifies the companies. The next sentence in the article is taken from the ERTMS article where it is ref'ed in the References section. It certainly is not my intent to require registration to access the ref; I go straight to the Progressive Railroading article text w/o having to register; my apologies if others must register. Thanks. Truthanado (talk) 04:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
There's nowt I can really add to the article. The mill only had a short working life. I have the measurements of the machinery but this is from a personal visit and thus OR. Never mind, can't win them all! Mjroots (talk) 09:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Nursehound
... that the rough skin of the nursehound(pictured) was once used as an abrasive called "rubskin", which was worth a hundred times more than sandpaper?
Ref.20 seems irrelevant there (?) I'm not sure about interpreting Ref. 19. "Worth" in terms of price is poor comparison because of rarity of rubskin. Materialscientist (talk) 06:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not certain what the issue is. The source (Day 1884) states directly that a pound of rubskin was worth a cwt of sandpaper. Thus, it is worth a hundred times (or rather, a bit more) as much. -- Yzx (talk) 07:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
This clarifies it for me, but I suggest, e.g. "hundred times better than" instead of "worth a hundred times more" - "worth" implies price.Materialscientist (talk) 08:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Then I don't see any sense in this hook, comparing price of rare sharkskin and sandpaper. Suggest deleting everything after "rubskin". Materialscientist (talk) 09:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Why? It's a simple statement of fact regarding the historical value of rubskin versus another abrasive. -- Yzx (talk) 19:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
You stated two separate facts (i) rubskin was used as abrasive; (ii) rubskin was 100 times more expensive than sandpaper. (i) is much more appealing, but, we have to be more specific on dates (which make a big difference here). Thus either (A) delete (ii) and replace "once" with dates, or (B) keep as is, only to say with (ii) that rubskin was known at the time when sandpaper was available. I'm not happy with (B) because it is dubious and unclear on dates. Materialscientist (talk) 23:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Is your issue that the historical timeframe for the hook is not specific enough, or that the price comparison is invalid or irrelevant? Those are two separate things. If it is the first, then remove "once" and insert "in the 19th century". If it is the second, then I disagree. The economic value of rubskin versus sandpaper is relevant because they're both abrasives with similar uses. -- Yzx (talk) 03:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The alternate hook implies that the reason why rubskin was more expensive than sandpaper is due to rarity, rather than its actual usefulness as an abrasive. While this may or may not have been the case, it assumes beyond the source, which simply states that rubskin was valued and gives a figure for that value. I don't understand why User:Materialscientist finds the original hook so objectionable, considering that its factual accuracy does not appear to be in question. -- Yzx (talk) 04:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
ALT1 does not imply rarity at all. It states the same information as your original hook, but puts an important contradiction in it, which links two originally disconnected parts. Materialscientist (talk) 06:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
AGF hook is supported by Polish-language source cited. Article length and 5x expansion verified. Added possible picture to hook and corrected typo (14h -> 14th). --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Comment: The church article is new; Kingston has had a 5x expansion. The apparent inconsistency of the names (by Sea? Buci?) is explained in the article. The official name of the parish is Kingston Buci, anyway. Kingston by Sea had a merge tag, but I feel the sources support its independent notability.
ALT: ... that Kenneth W. Winters, having experience as a former university president, was named chairman of the Education Committee of the Kentucky State Senate?
length and date find but I search for "nine" "centuries" and "900" and the words are not in this article. Can you make the hook obvious please in the article lede section. Victuallers (talk) 01:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Argh! Sorry for not putting the correct URL reference in there... I fixed it now. You can see the interview between Fry and Dinkelspiel here on page 534. Dinkelspiel, the assistant campaign manager, has established that he and Harvey Hancock had a degree of independence from Chotner and the Southern California campaign. Dinkelspiel agrees that the pink sheet was a specific instance of he and Hancock not running Chotner's materials. The north guys didn't think it smart to compare the voting record of Douglas with that of avowed Communist Marcantonio, because Nixon's own voting record was closely aligned as well. Binksternet (talk) 14:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
ALT... that Jane H. Smith is not only the first woman state legislator from Bossier Parish in northwestern Louisiana, but she is the first woman to have been a high-school principal and school superintendent there as well?
A scan of the plate is online, and out of copyright protection (?), but it is not nearly as attractive as the photo selected here. --Una Smith (talk) 17:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Hook statement does not appear in article's main body text and lacks a cite; article is short of citations in general. Gatoclass (talk) 04:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid not. Where, for example, does the information come from that "The first edition featured printed color plates, rather than hand-colored plates. Most of the plates were color photographs, but also some paintings."? Your cited ref has no such information. Gatoclass (talk) 14:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
The cited ref is the first edition itself, it is online, and this information is apparent in it. It is mentioned also in other sources. However, is a textual source really necessary? --Una Smith (talk) 03:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
How do you know they are "printed color plates" rather than "hand-colored" if you don't have a reference which specifically says as much? Gatoclass (talk) 05:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Note: Articles nominated for a special occasion should be nominated within five days of creation or expansion as usual (with the exception of April Fools'). Also, articles should be nominated at least five days before the occasion to give reviewers time to check the nomination.
Alt hook is too long (221 characters). Fact of the first hook checked and sourced to offline references - accepted AGF. Nice work on that expansion. Regards SoWhy 09:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The Insider is short of 1500 characters of prose and contains random info like the cost of subscriptions. More importantly, though, the wording in the John Verbanac article is the same as the source. See this Signpost dispatch for more on plagiarism. Shubinator (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Length, date and online hook refs verified; 
The article is not on Shanghai Stem Cell Institute, but on stem cell research; it should be merged into a proper article. Materialscientist (talk) 12:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Verified ref. and article, but the hook is 206 characters and needs polish (so as the article). Materialscientist (talk) 12:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
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Done -- Sk8er5000 (talk) 05:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
