Misplaced Pages

Catholic Church (the sequel)

There is some new action on this. Would you be willing to take a look? Sunray (talk) 20:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

It was bound to happen. Shell 20:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your intervention, it was well timed. I had to be somewhere else and wasn't sure which way it was going to go. Looks like it may be settling down now. (At least until the next time).  :) Sunray (talk) 23:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Moving forward with dispute resolution

I have started this discussion in a good faith attempt to resolve this ongoing dispute. Any help you can lend in terms of mediating the discussion will be appreciated. Thanks. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If you could advise me

Hello. Recently you weighed in on an RFC dispute over sources at Talk:Herodotus where you appeared to agree with my assessment of the situation. The discussion has now reached a dead end with no resolution. From my point of view it is a simple rules violation and should have ended long ago with the exclusion of the material in question. A majority of the users who have weighed in over there appear to also agree. Yet the original editor continues to re-insert the material (without even the bother of an edit summary) in violation, I believe, of WP:Burden. Doesn't he have to make his case definitively before he can add the stuff back in?

Could you please advise me on what my next step should be? Is it time for formal mediation? I don't feel that he communicates in good faith as he continually ignores any point that goes to the heart of the matter. (I also feel like I'm being tag-teamed by another editor/admin who has historically come to his aid.) I don't want to get caught up in an edit war and yet what more can one do than revert material that violates the rules? Should I use the "Uw-unsourced" template on his talk page as a warning? As you can see I find myself on uncertain ground here. I'd appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks, Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's a clear consensus for or against including that material at this time since several editors have both supported and opposed the inclusion. You may want to try further dispute resolution such as an informal mediation with the WP:MEDCAB. I would not suggest warning the other editor in this case since I don't believe there is a clear reason to do so; based on the conversations and the support of more than one person, they likely believe in good faith that they are doing the right thing just as you believe in good faith that including it is not the right thing. Its just going to take a bit more work to settle something that you both can agree to - have you tried suggesting any compromises? Shell 20:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Things heating up...

significantly over at the R. L. Hymers article. I deleted this from the article, left this message on the user's page. You can see the editor's response and my reply. Any suggestions/feedback? Thanks. Xymmax _{So let it be done} 22:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately I saw this coming - Scooge and someone claiming to be affiliated with Hymers had recently clashed on another website and are now importing the feud here. I strongly support liberal blocking if any more shenanigans occur. Shell 23:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Nguyen Review on Quackwatch

Shell, could you offer some help in a 6 day edit war over the addition of this statement "Nguyen-Khoa stated that the implementation of a peer review process would improve the site's legitimacy." to the Nguyen review in the Site Review section of the Quackwatch wikipedia article? The statement was derived from this statement "A giant step toward true legitimacy would involve active peer review of the articles to be published, a logical transition for a site that relies on so much of the accepted medical literature as its foundation." in the Nguyen review of the Quackwatch site which appears in the Consultant Pharmacist (American Society of Consultant Pharmacists. ). Quackguru has been reverting it for 6 days now with various reasons. Here is the last revert He is now claiming that Nguyen's view that peer-review would improve the Quackwatch site is a tiny minority view and therefore should not be in the article, as per WP:Weight. Can you give some guidance in this matter of WP:Weight if you have time? Here is the section on the talk page: Talk:Quackwatch#Nguyen_Review. I would appreciate any help you can give in this matter. --stmrlbs|talk 08:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The best advice I can give you on this and other disputes with this same small group of people is to get more editors involved somehow. It should be pretty obvious by now that QuackGuru tends to be on the polar opposite of yourself and Levine; there's nothing wrong with that, but it does make it difficult for you guys to work out your differences into some kind of compromise.

After looking at the history of Quackwatch it does appear that QuackGuru is edit warring; I'm a bit concerned though that we've got anons popping up again and its a bigger concern that they always seem to pop up just in time to make it look like QuackGuru is the only one edit warring. I guess I'm going to have to ask a checkuser to flush the bin once and for all. Let me do some investigating and then I'll see if I can't wade in there too. Shell 12:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, please check all the IPs for sockpuppets. The new IPs are making changes both ways. 86.146.119.24, 86.134.240.225 86.146.119.24 are all supporting Quackguru's reverts, In fact QuackGuru came to the defense of this IP, uncharacteristic of someone who is usually accusing all IPs of being sockpuppets). These IPs seem to have some personal vendetta and prior knowledge based on the remarks on their edit summmaries. The other IPs,166.205.131.73 69.234.129.52 support my Nguyen review changes. I would welcome a sockpuppet check.

To be honest, I don't like protecting a page like this against IPs, because they are usually the only new editors - but unfortunately, most of them don't go to the talk page to discuss their edits. A lot of them really are fly-by editors. 70.71.22.45 seems to an exception and has learned to participate in the talk discussions; but I wish he would register because, as I've told him, people (like me) just don't remember IP numbers. --stmrlbs|talk 18:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.174.126.62

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.174.185.155

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.154.164.246

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.173.111.155

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.173.129.141

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.174.109.187

http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/32.133.106.62

The editor Stmrlbs welcomes an IP check. Here is a list of IP socks. QuackGuru (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Shell, please check these IPs against both me AND Quackguru. The IPs he just posted mysteriously appeared in a past discussion, then Quackguru used accusations of sockpuppetry to drive the discussion away from the content, as he is now doing at the Quackwatch page . He is now also making accusations on his User Talk Page This is a pattern of QuackGuru's. the rest of the section where QG accuses everyone who doesn't share his POV of being sockpuppets. Another example Talk:Chiropractic/Archive_30#Mysterious_IP_reverts. Then QuackGuru files an "incident" without notifying anyone, slapped sockpuppet templates saying that these IPs were suspected sockpuppets of me: , again without telling anyone - and I see he has done it again: . Nor did he mention in the incident report that he repeated vandalized Levine's user page twice, and replaced it with a big Sockpuppet accusation, even though QuackGuru had filed no WP:SPI report. When he was told to take it to the sockpuppet board, both at the admin board, and on the chiropractic pages - he never did - said it was "stale".

So, imo, this is just a tactic QuackGuru uses to harass other editors and to try to drive them away. I also think it is an interesting coincidence that these IPs seem to pop up when QuackGuru wishes to try to discredit other editors. So, I would appreciate a checkuser on these additional IPs QuackGuru posted for BOTH me and QuackGuru.

I would also like to know if QuackGuru's habit of slapping "suspected sockpuppet" templates on IPs without notifying the Users he is accusing is against Misplaced Pages policy? Thanks for your time in this matter. --stmrlbs|talk 23:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Quite frankly I've been tempted several times to comment on the talk page that both of these editors should be taken out behind the outhouse and given a good spanking. They have both been editing warring. There are no innocent parties here.

As to IPs, yes, they all need to be checked, especially 70.71.22.45 and two other related IPs from the same region:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/24.68.247.69
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/96.48.249.100
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/75.157.217.64 (added later)

They are all three four likely IP socks of the same user who refuses to use his registered username. Brangifer (talk) 00:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. No innocent parties here. BullRangifer, since you've opened the door by insinuating that the 2 IPs are socks of 70.71.22.45 ("the same user who refuses to use his registered username"), I would like to say that BullRangifer also uses this tactic of accusing other editors who do not share his POV - both registered users and IPs - to bait and disrupt article talk page conversations . I am not the only person that has gotten after him for this: 106 Personal attacks (2nd section named Personal Attacks). Like I said, this is a strategy used by both QuackGuru and BullRangifer to divert conversation from content to discrediting other editors who don't share your POV - and they often use each other's accusations to bolster their own. I am sick of it. So, please feel free to check my IP now and forever more, because I have never used a sockpuppet. I have no problem saying what I need to say under my own handle. --stmrlbs|talk 02:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

A diversionary ad hom attack won't help you here. It is perfectly proper to point out when socks are operating, and those IPs have been a problem, regardless of their POV. Editors should use their log-in when they have it, and they shouldn't use multiple IPs when editing. By logging in it makes no difference how many IPs they use because everything is registered to the same username. That avoids violation of a fundamental policy here. It is forbidden to avoid the scrutiny of other editors. All of an individual's edits should be attributable to the same username. Only under certain circumstances are multiple usernames allowed, and editing the same articles using different anonymous IPs isn't cool at all. What I have written is not a personal attack, but an attempt to get an editor to abide by our policies. Because these articles are covered by special ArbCom sanctions, Shell or any other admin can impose topic bans, blocks, require a user to use their log-in, or whatever is necessary to prevent disruption. Something needs to be done. I agree with you that a CU should be performed on all the editors in this matter, both IPs and registered users. There has been too much socking, meatpuppetry and tag-teaming going on. That's why I've been staying away from the subjects most of the time lately. It's a hornets' nest.

This latest edit war of yours is really a pain, especially since it's all been done and settled long ago. That you don't like the result shouldn't be our problem, but you insist on messing up a pretty well written section by going back to old matters that were reasonably well done. That's classic disruption and stonewalling. That QG plays his IDONTHEARIT game where he repeats himself is doubly irritating, all the while fighting alone against a group who tag teams him. Believe me, many share his POV, but abhor his methods. He's probably frustrated that I and many other editors don't help him, but his manner of editing irritates me, so he'll have to go it alone, even though it means that fringe POV pushers get the upperhand in their efforts to smear Barrett and Quackwatch, and whitewash chiropractic. That his efforts sometimes border on whitewashing Barrett and Quackwatch doesn't help matters. Both sides engage in the same offensive actions, just in different ways. Brangifer (talk) 03:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

yes, how dare I edit a Misplaced Pages article when the ruling group of editors have decided it is perfect the way it is! I'm sorry, I guess I didn't read that part of Misplaced Pages policy.

Since you brought up Tag Teaming, here is a classic example that I will never forget. I started a new section discussing 3rd party opinions on the Board Certification issue, and one day the discussion is there, and going on, and the next day Poof! gone! courtesy of QuackGuru . I tried to restore it . Then BullRangifer archives the whole discussion again Decision supported by the team (which evidently I wasn't a part of since I wasn't asked how I felt about it.) Actually.. it was so outrageous, it was kind of funny.

But enough of the fond memories. I hope that Shell will continue with the CheckUser requests, and clear up the sockpuppet accusations. --stmrlbs|talk 05:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

• Working on this guys; its in my sandbox for right now while I dive in to the different IPs a bit. Shell 01:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Shell. I really appreciate it. Can you answer my question about the proper procedure for templating suspected sockpuppets? Is it proper procedure for QuackGuru to plaster these IPs with "suspected sockpuppet of stmrlbs" (me)? He did this in the past without ever filing a report, and I see he has done it again. I just want to know what the proper procedure is for this. Thanks. --stmrlbs|talk 01:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I missed that in all the noise. No, that's not appropriate and I'm fairly certain he's been told that before. I've reverted those recent tags and left a warning. Shell 02:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Shell. QuackGuru also did the same thing to Levine2112 at the same time he did this to me last time. --stmrlbs|talk 03:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your suggestion for more editors to get involved... I tried, and found that when things didn't go QuackGuru's way, he began to shuffle around the comments, using a totally deceptive edit summary, which I found to be unethical and manipulative, recasting the entire conversation in a different light, an assessment another editor agreed with. I tried to revert this nonsense a few times, only to find Ronz suddenly rabidly attacking me for it, demanding I apologize for insulting the great QuackGuru. I've decided the page isn't worth fighting over, QuackGuru's OWN issues are completely repulsive to a new editor, in both senses of the word. I'd also like permission to email you regarding another related matter. ThuranX (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

"only to find Ronz suddenly rabidly attacking me for it, demanding I apologize for insulting the great QuackGuru" I have to point out that someone was doing some attacking, but ThuranX appears to be confused as to who. Further, I don't recall anyone asking for an apology either. More confusion, I'm sure. Nothing some basic adherence to WP:CIVIL wouldn't have settled and resolved long, long ago. But this is the editing of Quackwatch, so editors have to make sure that the regular disruptive editing environment continues. --Ronz (talk) 19:48, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

a side note

I just wanted to make a note of something I was thinking about in one of the edit summary of 86.146.119.24: here where 86.146.119.24 reverts my version of Nguyen's review back to QuackGuru's version - the comment is "(undo vandalism by 2 well known fringe pov pushers)". I've only been editing regularly since April 2009, and have only edited on a few articles, some about alternative medicine, some not. So, for this IP to make this remark, they must be familiar with the edits that I do on these few articles. The alternative articles that I've participated on aren't exactly high profile. The Quackwatch and Barrett articles have very low view counts. I've done some editing on Colloidal silver which has twice as many people looking at it as the Quackwatch/Barret articles - but it is usually pretty quiet with only about 3 regulars - 2 of them admins.. So, Quackwatch/Barrett, Colloidal Silver, and Chiropractic are it for the "fringe" articles in my editing history. I have also edited "Blood type diet" in the past, but added criticism of the theory for that article. So, I wouldn't be considered a "fringe POV pusher" by the regulars on that article. I would think this indicates a strong possibility of 86.146.119.24 being or knowing one of the regulars on the Quackwatch/Barrett, Chiropractic articles.
Of course, there is the possibility that I've become so well known in a few months that even fly by IPs are familiar with my "fame". (But I think the probability of that is minute) --stmrlbs|talk 08:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If the edits had a different POV, I would have suspected Macromonkey of making them, as they resolve to the same area, but obviously there are other people living there. It might be a good idea to add that IP to your CU list. Brangifer (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I have never interacted with a "Macromonkey". And, like you said, wrong POV. --stmrlbs|talk 16:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Clocking in

Shell, I was away all weekend. I just got back and I am trying to catch up here (but at the same time trying to catch up in RL). Looks like you're off to a good start. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance here. Thanks. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 16:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Shell, I ma very concerned about QuackGuru going around dropping "suspected sock puppet" banners on several IP talk pages such as this one: User_talk:76.222.232.146. QuackGuru claims to provide "evidence" on his own talk page, but it is very weak, maniputalively written and chock full of false accusations and bad faith assumptions. The fact that he has an IP editor (or multiple IP editors) reverting many of his edits speaks more to the low quality and biased nature of his edits than it does sockpuppetry. I am grateful that there are others out there who revert his bad edits when he makes them. Typically, I encourage these editors (or any IP editor I see) to sign up for a proper account 1) because I would like them to join Misplaced Pages and contribute in a manner beyond blind reverts under the anonymity of an IP, 2) to share their thoughts on the discussion pages and 3) if you check my history, you will see that I am a one-man welcome wagon machine (I've probably welcomed hundreds if not thousands of new IP editors to Misplaced Pages). Anyhow, I attest that I am not any of these IP addresses list on QuackGuru's talk page or in your sandbox, I have no sockpuppet IPs nor accounts, and the few times I've ever edited from my IP address (twice that I can think of a few back) was done purely on accident and with much regret because it resulted in editors trying to geolocate and stalk me. QuackGuru has been warned about placing these labels on user pages before, but that didn't stop him from doing it again and I resent that he considers his twisted "evidence" to be proof of any wrongdoing on my part. He has done this in the past several times in an attempt to besmirch my reputation, even going so far as edit warring to blank my user page . His incivility toward me is beyond reproach. Given his behavior and attitude toward editors such as myself, I wouldn't even put it past him to be sockpuppeteering these IPs and edit warring with himself in an attempt to implicate me in the Misplaced Pages equivilent of a joe job. Again, I have no sockpuppets (IPs or proper accounts) and I am embittered that I even have to spend time defending myself against accusations lodged by such an uncivil and vindictive editor. -- ǝʌlǝʍʇ ǝuo-ʎʇuǝʍʇ 20:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

New page development

Hello,

I want to publish a page regarding an Organization and have created a write - up also keeping all the rules and regulations of Wiki in mind. I wanted to get it reviewed and have it published. It would be great if you could assist me.

Waiting for your reply --Peswriter (talk) 05:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)