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A bold proposal

In an attempt to turn a divisive RfC into something productive I have created a new page. I hope you will come and do what you can to help make it work: Misplaced Pages: Areas for Reform Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Peter David

Hi, Raul. I did a lot of extensive work on the Peter David article, putting copious amounts of sources in it, rewriting and rearranging it, removing unsourced material, adding material, etc. It is currently rated a C on the quality scale. Do you know how to request a reevaluation, or can you tell me what can be done to improve it to a better status? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Something that may be of use to you

Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive45#Reverting in unsourced material to BLP articles is interesting reading. At the time Fredrick Day wasn't banned only indef blocked (was banned later) but Abd saw fit to wikilawyer over whether he was banned or not, and revert all his edits on the basis that he was banned even to the point of adding gratuitous BLP violations back to articles. That seems to be the exact opposite of his approach when acting as a proxy for Jed Rothwell, correct? As the last post in that thread shows there's more details in the AN/ANI archives from that time, don't have time to dig round for links for them sorry. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

Could you delete the last two words ("of lies") here? This tends to provoke negative reactions, regardless of whether the characterization is true. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Great, but also watch out for tasty worms. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The filter helps locate him .... but

... he is crawling out all over the place.... Yonkers Sam is definitively him. Several ip-edits are also him - i've given up on marking down everywhere he edits.

You where right. The ip-range blocks where a large help, and now we see it. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm rather busy dealing with other things at the moment, so I'll leave it up to those short-sighted admins who pushed to get rid of the rangeblocks to now deal with the mess they've created. FWIW, you might want to compare the new IPs with the list of recently unblocked ranges here. You might also want to start another AN or ANI thread. Raul654 (talk) 21:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You honestly think that long-term blocks on over 400,000 IPs (based on your Scibaby subpage) are justified to prevent one POV pusher who's fairly easy to identify? I'd like to see what approach you would have taken to handle Grawp vandalism. For what it's worth, I believe these blocks have helped to some degree, but he's always managed to sneak away onto an unblocked IP to edit. I don't think this partial effectiveness is an arguable defense against preventing hundreds of legitimate anonymous contributors from editing Misplaced Pages. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 23:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, you aren't the one who has to clean it up now that he does get through.... And we're just seeing the tip of the 'berg now, since he can just create new puppets for slow ripening, without any form of hindering. Now i'm not saying that massive ip-blocks are good - but the situation now isn't better... --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

This certainly sounds difficult to deal with! 84.134.152.44 (talk) 08:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I sympathize with you. I myself deal with vandals who simply don't understand that there is more to life than disrupting Misplaced Pages. Kim, what do you think about semi-protection? Will that help? Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 13:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It won't help, because he ages his accounts. Do you know someone with checkuser access who would be willing to share the load? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I am someone with checkuser access. I have been sharing a small part of the load over the last month or so. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 14:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Responding to Nishkid's comment above - Grawp is easy to detect. In fact, his MO is so obvious that there are now automated tools to deal with him. Scibaby, contrary to your claims, is not easy to detect. It requires someone with checkuser access, who watches the affected articles, knows what to look for, and runs lots of checkusers. If he were easy to spot, checkuser access would not be required, and this would be a non-issue.

Of course, Grawp is easy to detect. I never said he wasn't. He's difficult, however, to handle. From my limited experience with Scibaby, I've found that he targets a somewhat specific subset of articles. Patrol the articles and you've hit most of the Scibaby socks (of course, there is the occasional page that goes undetected). If you want me to handle Scibaby, I'll do it. I run dozens of CUs every day, and adding a few Scibaby checks now and then won't make me complain. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Patrol the articles and you've hit most of the Scibaby socks - and how is someone without checkuser supposed to tell the difference between an ordinary newbie who happens to have edited the wrong article and a scibaby sock? If it requires checkuser to tell the difference, then by definition he is not easy to detect. Raul654 (talk) 16:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I believe these blocks have helped to some degree - the blocks were highly effective in dealing him - he went from registering 15 or 20 socks at a time to doing them in singletons. (So quantitatively, that makes them 93%-95% effective. If you hit 93% in baseball, they'd call you the greatest player who ever lived.) Only someone totally ignorant of his behavior could claim they were not effective.

I take issue with the ridiculous 5 year blocks you made on a number of IP ranges. Of course, these blocks helped, but it was easy enough for him to figure out that he could just go down the block to make another set of accounts on a different ISP. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how he waited out the 3, 6, 12, and 18 month blocks I started with, 5 years was the natural next step. Raul654 (talk) 16:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

but he's always managed to sneak away onto an unblocked IP to edit. - that's because he registers new accounts using his cell phone. IIRC, he uses the Sprint network, which is a huge, highly dynamic range, akin to what AOL was before they implemented XFF, except with *far* fewer legitimate users. The whole network should be blocked until they get XFF.

Yes, I've seen. Sprint PCS, same UA every time. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this partial effectiveness is an arguable defense against preventing hundreds of legitimate anonymous contributors from editing Misplaced Pages. - this is a strawman argument. Virtually all the blocks were anon-only. Anyone who wanted to could request an account, just as they would for any other website on the internet, and be totally unaffected by the blocks. What we're really talking about is the handful of users on those blocked ranges who wanted to edit, but didn't want to request an account. Compare that to the dozens or hundreds of regular editors on the affected articles who *very much* don't want to deal with a massive influx of sockpuppets. Raul654 (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

One of things people should realize with experience is that an anon is only going to create an account to make an edit if he feels it's really worth his while. Most of the time, he'll see the block notice and leave the article alone. I consider this to be a concern that still needs addressing by the community. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 16:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

One of things people should realize with experience is that an anon is only going to create an account to make an edit if he feels it's really worth his while. - At that point, it becomes just as "hard" to participate on Misplaced Pages as it is for any other website on the internet, and this is not an especially high bar to participation. If I have to choose between making it easy to edit for those potential contributors who aren't all that interested in creating an account, and keeping Misplaced Pages sane for the actual regular editors who have to deal with Scibaby, it's a no brainer. Raul654 (talk) 16:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Senedd

Would you please review Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Senedd/archive1. Even under the new expedited rules this seems harsh: promotion was denied on the basis of one oppose, all the objections of which had been dealt with when the candidacy was closed - one was unsound, but that's a detail. Am I missing something? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The FAC had been open for almost a month (28 June to 25 July) with no Support (your Support, Pma, was entered after the FAC was archived). (I'm wondering wht the "new expedited rules" might refer to?) Please feel free to inquire on my talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

This is entirely procedural. Steve Smith and Eubulides approved the article, even if they didn't use the magic word Support.

I see then than the nominator was correct in asking me to refine my position. I made a comment (not an oppose) and was fully satisfied. I regret that I did not respond to his request faster.

Sandy, I thought we went through this; please archive, close, and put in the {{poll}} tags at the same time; this was days.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:46, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Please check your math; GimmeBot tagged it closed less than 24 hours after I closed it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not approve the article. I approved only the article's alt text (which is pretty much all that I read of the article). I use the magic word Support only when I support the entire article. Unfortunately I often don't have time to read whole articles carefully. Eubulides (talk) 07:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

We have {{FACClosed}} for that purpose, but editors don't always have the time to put it in. Also, Steve Smith didn't necessarily register his support, he just noted that image issues were fine. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The FACClosed template can be added by any editor once the FA director or delegate has moved a FAC to the promoted or archived log. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

New rules?

Hello, Raul. What are these new "expedited" rules that I see referenced, and are they the reason for Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jack Coggins/archive2 being refused after 2 weeks with no opposition while Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jack Coggins/archive1 went on for over a month? -- Avi (talk) 05:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

There are no new expedited rules (I'm also unclear what PMA is referring to). Two weeks has always been typical, while I've always tried to let them run longer (up to a month) if the page isn't backlogged. One way nominators can help improve the situation is by helping out with some reviews; many editors have to review each FAC before they can be promoted, so if nominators help out by reviewing some others, everyone wins. SandyGeorgia (Talk)

Sandy does not take credit for her actual accomplishment, of speeding up the FAC from its old norm (for which two weeks would have been minimal) to the present faster pace. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Four to five days has always been minimal; review old archives. In fact, I have slowed down the pace. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

(to Avi) It helps if you ask reviewers if their concerns have been addressed, and if there's anything left, et al. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Scibaby

I suspect this is another for you - if it isn't already spotted and handled, that is: User:Jonny Jameson - Bilby (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

See above - until further notice, I'm going to let others deal with Scibaby. Raul654 (talk) 19:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No hassles. I can well understand why. - Bilby (talk) 22:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

TFA html.

He Raul, can i propose this ? The extra p that is currently being created in TFA's is having unexpected alignment issues on the new mobile site. The HTML generated with these changes is cleaner and will prevent any further problems. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any objections to doing that. Raul654 (talk) 19:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It is important to have <div>]</div>, without linebreaks. The linebreaks in the div will cause the actual extra paragraph to be inserted. The new styling is just to correct the margins. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Raul654 (talk) 14:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

FAR again

Can you take a look at the FARCs at the bottom for Aramaic language, Krag-Jorgensen and Peterboroguh Chronicle please? I can't close them and Joelr31 said he would but has only made 1 edit in the last three weeks (to say that he would close them) YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 02:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes - I'll review these later tonight (in 5 or 6 hours). Raul654 (talk) 22:45, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I missed yesterday, but I'll definitely get to them today. Raul654 (talk) 15:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Better late than never. I closed 2 of them, but left Aramaic language there a bit longer for Gareth. Raul654 (talk) 05:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Lake Burley Griffin and Cane toad are nearing closure. Most people will be satisfied soon in the next week I think; I was involved in renovating both of them. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 05:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Krag-Petersson and Sheffield is now a while old but I was involved there too. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Ping. Sheffield is now being worked on....No movement on Aramaic YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 03:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Ping again for FAR! YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 03:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Feature lists on the main page

I recently asked SandyGeorgia if there was a process by which a featured list could be nominated for the main page, to which the answer was no. Therefore, I wanted to know if I could offer up a new proposal, somewhere, that feature list nominations be considered for the main page? Do you think that is something the community might be open to? What do you think of the idea? Regardless, thank you for your time, and your work on wikipedia! ---kilbad (talk) 01:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• I am particularly interested in getting the list of cutaneous conditions nominated. ---kilbad (talk) 20:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

CO2 and methane

Can you clarify what you mean here? Presently the radiative forcing from increased CO2 is about 1.7 W/m2, versus about 0.5 W/m2 for CH4. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I reverted because it looked like vandalism to me - a relatively new editor comes in and changes a long-standing answer in the FAQ to say the opposite of what it had previously. (And IMO it could go either way because methane causes far more warming on a per molecule basis, although there's less of it so it causes less total warming.) If you think the change is OK, then I'm fine with you reverting me. You're the expert. Raul654 (talk) 01:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

What, me expert? Anyway this guy been running around to various articles reorganizing FAQs into this drop-down format. He means well, but he doesn't know the subject matter in all of these articles so he sometimes screws up the answers. I'm going to wait until he's done and then go back and fix the content. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

On a related note, I just went looking for Scibaby socks, to see if the filter could be improved. I found three socks (Yonkers Sam, Spe Yndle, and Stuz23), of which two are unblocked as of this writing (Nishkid blocked Yonkers Sam). Worse, I wasn't even trying anything fancy to find them -- I just took the remedial action of checking the recently unblocked ranges. Worse still is the fact that Stuz23 tripped the filter and nobody did anything about it! Conclusion - the situation is still intolerable. Further time spent pursuing this is not well spent. The only bright spot, so far as I can tell, is that the 205 filter is optimal as far as type II errors are concerned. Raul654 (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Question for you

Well since it is claimed that we are members of some kind of cabal would you mind sharing the secret handshake, or tell me if I should get a special hat (tinfoil I am assuming) but please, oh please tell me I don't have to like science, you know Cold fusion, Global warming. I don't do science so tell me anything but do the science of it! :) Anyways, since I haven't had contact with most of the editors who are supposed to be running like a gang in this cabal I did search some of the editors and I have to admit I am impressed. I do nothing for this project compared to most of the rest of you, and I mean this with all sincerity. Keep up the great work you do here. I can't really think this late in the day here so I'm on way off the computer. Have a good night, --CrohnieGal 19:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm really steamed. Crohnie gets to be part of the cabal even though she doesn't know the secret handshake. While I've been slavishly following Raul, WMC and the rest for all these years and I only get a lousy "should be noticed in reviewing surrounding activity." Harrumph. Crohnie, play Ted Nugent's "Cat Scratch Fever" backwards at 78 rpm for a high priority cabal message Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We have a secret handshake? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Life is just not fair, Boris. Too bad you're going to miss the party, but you know, members only... Woonpton (talk) 20:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Ack, and i've been thrown off completely - now i only feature in a small part in the text itself.... And i also wanna know the handshake! --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Accusations

Greetings, Raul654. In reply to this: you and I seem to have differing opinions about what is true and what is false. You said "lying about Abd's actions" while giving a diff of GoRight saying "Abd's statements regarding policy are always backed by the clear text and spirit of the policy in question", a statement which is perfectly true as far as I'm aware. In an attempt to demonstrate the falsity of GoRight's statement, you then quoted Abd saying "We have a claim that Arkady Renkov is a sockpuppet, but no identification of the puppet master, nor any clear confirmation of policy violation". These are three true statements about the situation. They are neither statements about policy, nor false. You state that Arkady explicitly admitted to being a sockpuppet, but give no evidence of such: only a diff of Arkady admitting to being a user who has previously used a different account; and even if Arkady had admitted to such, Abd's statement that there was a claim would still also be true. Your argument about the third statement is a circular argument if the only offense was editing an arbitration page in an otherwise nondisruptive manner; circular arguments can hardly be considered "clear confirmation". ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh for the love of god, this wiki-lawyering is reaching epic proportions. Let me see if I get the gist of your argument -- You claim that Arkady is not a sockpuppet, if "sockpuppet" is defined as a 'malicious alternative account', rather than the commonly used definition of 'any alternative account'. Furthermore you claim that Abd's statement wasn't false statement about policy because, assuming we accept your 'malicious' definition of a sockpuppet, the policy as written states that In particular, sockpuppet accounts may not be used in internal project-related discussions, such as policy debates or Arbitration Committee proceedings -- which, if we accept the premise of your argument (that a sockpuppet is a malicious account and by definition all activities of such are banned) would render that a vacuous statement. Is that about right? Raul654 (talk) 05:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You claimed that GoRight was "lying" and that Abd made false statements about policy, and your claims do not seem to me to stand up to scrutiny. I'm not claiming that the Arkady account was or was not a sockpuppet, and neither was Abd. Your mileage may vary, but it makes sense to me to use the definition given right on that same policy page, i.e. "A sock puppet is an alternative account used for fraudulent, disruptive, or otherwise deceptive purposes..." and "Alternative accounts have legitimate uses." I suppose you could argue, if you wish, that all sentences beginning with "In particular" are vacuous, but I think such sentences serve to emphasize, clarify and strengthen policy as applied in specific circumstances. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Your claims about what a sockpuppet is do not seem to me to stand up to scrutiny. Whatever the policy page says, "sockpuppet" in its common accepted usage means an alternative account. I suppose you could argue, if you wish, that all sentences beginning with "In particular" are vacuous - no, that's *exactly* what you *are* arguing, such as in your first statement on this thread that, where you said that: Your argument about the third statement is a circular argument if the only offense was editing an arbitration page in an otherwise nondisruptive manner. My argument is that alternative accounts of any stripe are prohibited from editing arbcom pages, while you are trying to wikilawyer away the definition of a sockpuppet to include only malicious alternative accounts, and consequently you argument is that explicit policy statements that sockpuppet accounts are prohibited from participating in arbcom proceedings are vacuous and redundant. And this is a wacky interpretation of policy if I've ever seen it. Raul654 (talk) 00:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I see as much creativity in your interpretation of policy, and in your informing me of what I (according to you) must have meant, as in your interpretation of Abd's and GoRight's original statements. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 20:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Re this comment: I don't consider your description of what you allege I'm trying to do to be accurate. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I see as much "novelty" in your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy so that certain parts of it (such as the prohibition on the use of sockpuppets in arbitration) are meaningless as I see coming from GoRight and Abd. Raul654 (talk) 23:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I also see the arbitration committee has defined sockpuppetry as it is commonly used, and contrary to your supposed definition of it, thus demolishing your argument. Raul654 (talk) 14:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry: I didn't find a definition of sockpuppetry in the link you give. Could you tell me which subsection it's in?

If someone edits an arbitration case with an admitted alternative account, my approach would be to ask them what their reason is for using an alternative account, and if necessary point out to them the sentence about arbitration proceedings in the sockpuppet policy. Given the existence of that sentence, they had better have a good reason. For example, if the person declares the name of their main account, states that their alternative account is for the purpose of posting from public computers, and confirms this from their main account, then I would consider that sufficient. There may be other good reasons. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

As it says clearly on that page, The use of sockpuppet accounts, while not generally forbidden, is discouraged. This contradicts your claim that sockpuppets are malicious and prohibited by definition. In short, the arbitration committee has implicitly defined a sockpuppet as the term is commonly understood - as any alternative account, whether used for good or not. That is why they go on to state explicitly: Abuse of sockpuppet accounts... is prohibited. Sockpuppet accounts are not to be used in discussions internal to the project, such as policy debates. I hope this has been enlightening for you. Raul654 (talk) 19:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I see. If I understand correctly, when you read that sentence in the sockpuppet policy, you understand the word "sockpuppet" in the way the arbitration committee has used the word, not in the way the word is defined in the first sentence of the policy. I suppose under that interpretation, an alternative account for use on public computers, as I describe above, would be technically disallowed, though presumably allowed under IAR. Before claiming that Abd has made a "false" statement, wouldn't it make sense to ask him which definition of "sockpuppet" he was using? I intend to continue to use the definition in its first sentence when interpreting the policy unless I see good reason to do otherwise. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 22:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello again. Re this comment: Your wording seems to me to indicate a prior assumption that there was an intent to deceive, when no such intent need be postulated to fully understand and explain Abd's actions. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Coppertwig, while we could all do as you do and go the extra mile to see no problems with Abd's behavior, I prefer to base my conclusions on evidence rather than gut feeling. The evidence - his behavior - clearly shows that his first statement was intended for public consumption, and does not reflect what he actually believes. Raul654 (talk) 14:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

FAR

Just saw you edit, so I had to nag you again YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I promise to tend to FAC and FAR by tomorrow at the latest. Raul654 (talk) 14:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Raul, I should be OK to get through FAC this weekend. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I had to nag again....YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it's my bad. I scheduled the main page FAs as promised, but didn't get to FAR. I've done it now. Raul654 (talk) 03:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, you removed Aramaic language from the list but haven't put it in the archive as kept or removed. Thanks YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 03:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Howdy there

As I understand it, Forest Park (Portland) is about to be featured on the main page. We've been discussing on the talk page, and are pretty sure the article title should be changed to Forest Park (Portland, Oregon) to comply with MOS and all that. Any problem if we make this last-minute change?

Thanks as always for your work on this stuff! -Pete (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

No problems here -- just make sure you update the main page blurb so it goes to the new name and not the redirect. Raul654 (talk) 22:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for my ignorance -- where does that live? -Pete (talk)

Never mind...found it...fixed :) Thanks. -Pete (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

FAR interview

Hey there. I would like to conduct an interview regarding the Featured Article Review process over the next week or two. Are you available / are you interested? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 15:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm interested, although mid-September or later would work better for me. Raul654 (talk) 05:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Question

Why was the link you removed considered "inappropriate"? It was a much higher-value and specific link than just linking to the article about the Olympics for that year. Regards, Dabomb87 (talk) 21:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Because a link to the 2008 Olympics, which Johnson didn't play in and probably didn't attend, is not appropriate. It has no place in the at article. Raul654 (talk) 21:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I see. Thank you for your prompt response. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, wouldn't it make sense to link to Basketball at the 1992 Summer Olympics instead of removing the link altogether? I think the insertion of 2008 was a typo. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that would make sense. Raul654 (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I reinstated it. Can it be reinstated in the Main Page blurb? Thanks, Dabomb87 (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/August 12, 2009

Hey, I just wanted to ask if you could consider finding a replacement for this. I was planning on nominating it for December 25, and it does still need a bit of work before it's suitable for the main page, I think. –Juliancolton |  22:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Christmas in August!--Wehwalt (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Re-triggering new message bar, to ensure you see this thread. –Juliancolton |  19:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

ffmpeg2theora

I used this to convert the MP4 downloaded from Apollo 8 MP4 to file:Apollo8Launch.ogg but it lost the sound. Is there a way to keep the sound in the conversion? Bubba73 (talk), 20:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

SPI

I'm not sure this is the greatest idea. It probably won't stick, so when GR really does cross the line there'll be some skepticism to overcome. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree - it's ridiculous that he's been able to flaunt the meatpuppetry policy for so long. Attempts to deal with it up until now have not worked. I think it's long past time to start documenting it as publicly as possible. Raul654 (talk) 22:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. I tend to wait until misbehavior becomes absolutely blindingly incontrovertibly obvious, but there's also value in acting before that point. I'm tending to be more and more of a WP:SLOTH as time goes on. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Block of 129.82.40.0/20 affecting IP 129.82.47.113

Hello Raul654,

This does not affect me so much since I have a user account (as you see I am logged in) but I just wanted to let you know that your block of the IP range 129.82.40.0/20 is also somehow affecting the IP address 129.82.47.113. I am not too up on the complete details of how a block works, but I just wanted you to know that this was happening.

I also believe the IP range you blocked may have been reassigned since your block as that range is now used by the Colorado State University Computer science department in our new building (which opened since the block took affect.) If your could review the block to make sure that it is still doing what you intended, that would be great. --BsayUSDCSU 20:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

request for your input

Hi Raul,

A month ago, I proposed unprotecting the TFA blurbs until a few days before they go live at WT:TFA#Modest proposal. It got no feedback for 2 weeks, and I promptly forgot I'd mentioned it. Just stumbled across the thread, and would like to pursue it again. As you are the one most directly affected by it, I'd appreciate your comment there. Thanks. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:40, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As long as the blurbs stay formatted as I format them, match the contents of the article, and people don't edit war over them, I don't have any problems with letting non-admins edit the main page blurbs Raul654 (talk) 21:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I have lowered the protection of these pages so that any confirmed user can edit them. Today's and Tomorrow's remain fully-protected of course. It might be an idea to add some of those formatting guidelines to an edit notice? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

FARs to close this weekend

Frederick Hamilton-Temple-Blackwood, 1st Marquess of Dufferin and Ava, Suburbs of Johannesburg and Algerian Civil War (I nominated them). Maybe AEJ Collins (I am working on it a bit) so I can't close them YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I was going to tend to them now, but I see they got closed. Raul654 (talk) 21:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Greetings

Long time no talk! Let me know what you're up to nowadays. Linuxbeak (The cake is a lie!) 15:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Linuxbeak! I'm good. These days, I'm doing performance analysis of scientific code at Los Alamos National Lab. Once I wrap things up here next month, I'll be going back to the east coast to (hopefully) finish my phd. What are you up to? Let me know here or drop me an email. Raul654 (talk) 21:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Water

I understand that you are in charge of Featured Articles. Well, is there anything else that Water needs to be to become one?--Launchballer (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you considered reapplying for Good Article status first, after addressing the issues that caused it to lose that status? After you do that, and possibly a peer review, you might want to submit the article at WP:FAC and see how it fares.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Planning Discussions Now Ongoing Regarding DC Meetup #8

You are receiving this message either because you received a similar one before and didn't object, or you requested to receive a similar one in the future.

There is a planning discussion taking place here for DC Meetup #8. If you don't wish to receive this message again, please let me know.

--User:Nbahn 04:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Replied there. Raul654 (talk) 21:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

just fyi...

A Counter-proposal (September 26) is being discussed at DC 8 (talk).
--NBahn (talk) 05:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Cabal communique 2009.419

DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING IF YOU ARE NOT A CABAL MEMBER

One of the cool things about watchlists is that you can watch a redlinked page to see when it's created. I've just put Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-Raul654 on my list. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

NONMEMBERS MAY RESUME READING

Thanks for the tip. When I add a red link to my watchlist, I usually just manually edit the raw watchlist to add them. Raul654 (talk) 21:25, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Raul absent for the next two weeks?

At the start of the month, Raul scheduled 17 days of TFA. Normally he doesn't do it very far in advance, I saw often only 3-4 days in advance in recent times. Does anybody know if he will be away until then? Did he announce it anywhere? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

He didn't say anything to my knowledge, but of course he could have on a page I don't have watchlisted. It may not be as long as that, four of the five TFA/R nominations were between the 12th and 17th, and he might have pushed ahead further than he needed to in order to clean out the page and give other articles a chance to be nominated and evaluated.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Raul, that discussion also spread to Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review#Another FAR delegate; I suggest a read of the entire talk page at WT:FAR, as the culture there has undergone some changes recently. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Heads up -- I'll be leaving tonight for the Grand Canyon, and won't have any internet access again until Sunday. Raul654 (talk) 21:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Have fun ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll drop in on talk:FAR after I get back. Raul654 (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you

But could you take a look at this if you get a chance? Hope you enjoyed your time off. Cheers. –Juliancolton |  14:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Raul654 (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. :) –Juliancolton |  14:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

300th birthday heads up

Raul, Samuel Johnson's 300th birthday is September 18 ... hopefully someone will remember to add Samuel Johnson's early life at TFA if I forget. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Your objective input is requested on Christianity and abortion

I am currently on the brink of an edit war with a revisionist contributor (User:IronAngelAlice) who wants the Christianity and abortion section to suggest that Christianity has taken a somewhat equivocal and lenient view of abortion. Your objective opinion would be greatly appreciated. Please look at the history. Thanks!LCP (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

An article of mine

Hi, I made an article a few months ago called Las Hermanas Montoya, and for some reason, it still isn't appearing on Yahoo! search. In fact, until recently, it was displaying my userpage as one of the search results, until a few days ago when it stopped picking up everything. It displays fine on Google, but not on Yahoo!. Can this be resolved? Thanks! --Hatman1960 (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like the issue is with Yahoo. There's not much we can do about it. Raul654 (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

You're invited!

You're invited to the
Philadelphia-area Misplaced Pages Meetup
September 12, 2009
Time: 3 pm
Location: University City, Philadelphia

NOTE: The date and time of this meetup has been changed to accommodate other regional activities.

The purpose of this meeting is to finalize our plans for the Wiki Takes Philadelphia event. We'll discuss logistics, establish jobs, and coordinate with participating groups.

The floor will also be open to discussing other projects relating to the Wiki and Free Culture movement.

Afterward at around 5pm, we'll share dinner and friendly wiki-chat at a local sports bar.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 17:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Essay that you may be interested in

Hi Raul. I have written an essay about censorship and the Main Page, aptly titled Misplaced Pages:NOTCENSORED and the Main Page. Given your prominent influence in the Main Page, I thought you may be interested in it. Cheers, \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 03:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Luckily, we are a diverse community, and the easiest way to gauge consensus over whether to censor material is to ask. - there's a big, obvious problem with this approach. If 50 people have a discussion about what is and is not appropriate on the main page, there will inevitably be 50 different, irreconcilable opinions. From my perspective, the problem is intractable. Raul654 (talk) 06:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Special Barnstar
		Please accept this overdue barnstar as a token of appreciation for all the good work you do... Johnfos (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you :) Raul654 (talk) 03:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Daily Kitten

Is it possible to add a couple cat pictures I have on my userpage into the queue for the Daily Kitten pics? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 05:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, go right ahead. Raul654 (talk) 03:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't know how, but here are three you can use. No credit needed, I just took them of my cats for decoration on my userpage. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 00:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Gallery's e-mail

The response I received was, "Thank you for your interest, howeve, we do not have a public gallery. Try some of these fine New York galleries: ..." I'm not sure where to go from here. What do you think? –blurpeace  00:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, it means they exist only to sell paintings, not to display them. In other words, they're a dead end. Hopefully the Goodrich papers will have photographs of their works which I can scan. Raul654 (talk) 01:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Museum photography and organized events

Sorry to say it Raul, but I don't think we can really do museum photography as part of organized events without getting permission from the museums. So I don't think this will work for Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Takes The City. Doing so would rather hurt the prospects of museums joining us in future for collaboratively-organized events like the next Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Loves Art, which I hope we can talk to these Philly museums about doing. Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 00:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I've already considered that. All the things I requested from the PMA are in the permanent collection, for which photography is permitted (Photographs may be taken without flash, using natural light, in most areas of the Museum. However, photography of works on loan and in special exhibitions is not permitted.-- http://www.philamuseum.org/visit/12-15-8.html). I've asked the La Salle gallery about it and I should know tomorrow - I expect they'll say yes. St Charles Borromeo Seminary doesn't say anything about it on their website, but since the Eakins paintings are available by appointment only, whoever goes can ask when they make the appointment; ditto the one in the Upenn radiology department. The only one I have no idea about is the David David gallery. Raul654 (talk) 05:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Question

Re: After Saturday comes Sunday. What's the policy governing the notability of slogans? I ask, because I've never heard of this slogan and I speak fluent Arabic and live in Nazareth and no one I know, knows about this "famous" slogan. Considering the ambivalence expressed in one source regarding its supposed meaning, is it fair to state that it means what you say it means without any qualification? Do you have any other sources? If you do, please provide them, because I'm thinking of nominating the article for deletion.Tiamut 20:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe we have a specific policy covering the notability of slogans.

Considering the ambivalence expressed in one source regarding its supposed meaning, is it fair to state that it means what you say it means without any qualification? - the article cites three sources, all of which define it the same (almost verbatim, in fact). It gets 13,000 hits on google, which is quite a lot considering it's a translation. If you want more reliable sources, I notice that Google books lists 25 books with that phrase:

• After Saturday Comes Sunday - HAMAS wasn't just a threat to Jews, its Islamicization of the struggle made Palestine's Christian community particularly nervous - To Rule Jerusalem‎, Roger Friedland, Richard Hecht, 2000
• 'After Saturday comes Sunday, an Arab tells me' — the proverb meaning that after the Jews are massacred it will be the turn of the Christians. - Crescent and star: Arab & Israeli perspectives on the Middle East conflict, Yonah Alexander, Nicholas N. Kittrie , 1973, page 262
• "After Saturday, comes Sunday," meaning that the forces of Islamic fundamentalism will turn to fighting the Christians after they have fought the Jews. - Joint Publications Research Service, United States. Foreign Broadcast Information Service
• And the list goes on and on. Raul654 (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Most of the 25 listings at google books are from English language guides. (I just checked myself too.) There is perhaps one other source you missed: Bat Ye'or. I notice most of the sources use it in passing (in other words, they are primary source examples of usage of the term). The only two real secondary sources are Bat Ye'or and one other author whose excerpt you cite in full on that page. That's pretty much it. I'm not sure it meets our notability guidelines (is there one specifically for slogansI don't think a viable article can be made out of it, considering how limited its usage is and how limited source material on it is. But I'll hold off nominating it for deletion for now to give you and others a chance to prove me wrong. Tiamut 21:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Most of the 25 listings at google books are from English language guides. - The vast majority of them are books on the Israeli/Palastinian conflict. "I saw the battle of Jerusalem‎", "Christian communities in Jerusalem and the West Bank since 1948", "The Middle East peace process: interdisciplinary perspectives" - these are not guides. They are clearly subject-specific books, closely related to the topic of the article.

I notice most of the sources use it in passing - so what? Short of finding a dictionary of Arabic phrases written in English I don't see how you are going to find a usage that cannot be described as written in passing. (Note that I have no intention of doing this, because it's a ridiculously high bar to set)

The only two real secondary sources are Bat Ye'or and one other author whose excerpt you cite in full on that page. - that is false. Most, if not all, of the books I linked above are secondary sources about the conflict.

I'm not sure it meets our notability guidelines - I disagree. The phrase clearly has a substantial popular and academic use.

I don't think a viable article can be made out of it, considering how limited its usage is and how limited source material on it is. - the article has three cited sources, with another 25 more being provided here after you asked for them. That is far more than most articles, let alone a 1 paragraph stub.

If you do, please provide them, because I'm thinking of nominating the article for deletion. - I have provided them. If you don't think the 28 sources I have cited are enough, go ahead and nominate it for deletion. I would be extremely surprised if the article is deleted. Raul654 (talk) 21:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You have not provided 28 sources. Looking at the google link you provided (a search including the word "jew" which filtered out the english language instruction books I spoke of):

• Islam and Dhimmitude: where civilizations collide‎ - Page 179

by Bat Yeʾor, Miriam Kochan, David Littman - History - 2002 - 528 pages "After Saturday Comes Sunday" In the conceptual and political context of jihad, Zionism represented for the Jews the only means of freeing themselves from ...

• • The one I referred you to. Note Bat Ye'or's views of Islam are well-known.

• Christian attitudes towards the State of Israel‎ - Page 126

by Paul Charles Merkley - History - 2001 - 266 pages ... sections of Jerusalem and Bethlehem: "After Saturday, comes Sunday! ... Those Jews unable to flee Iran live in a mileu of intolerable harassment, ... Limited preview - About this book - Add to my library

• • Already cited in the article. So with the three that are already cited there plus Bat Ye'or, we have 4 in total so far.

• To Rule Jerusalem‎ - Page 376

by Roger Friedland, Richard Hecht - Religion - 2000 - 604 pages After Saturday Comes Sunday HAMAS wasn't just a threat to Jews, its Islamicization of the struggle made Palestine's Christian community particularly nervous ...

• • This seems to be used as a title to a section, oddly, but okay, number 5.

• by American Universities Field Staff - History

There is a decade-old saying in the Near East that "after Saturday, comes Sunday ," meaning that after the expulsion of the Jews, whose Sabbath is on ... Snippet view - About this book - Add to my library - More editions

• Reports service‎ - Page 28
  • this is number 6. Who is saying this?

• by American Universities Field Staff - History - 1961

There is a decade-old saying in the Near East that "after Saturday, comes Sunday ," meaning that after the expulsion of the Jews, whose Sabbath is on ...

• • this is the number 6, same as above.

• Crescent and star: Arab & Israeli perspectives on the Middle East conflict‎ - Page 262

by Yonah Alexander, Nicholas N. Kittrie - Social Science - 1973 - 486 pages ... alia: " 'After Saturday comes Sunday, an Arab tells me' — the proverb meaning that after the Jews are massacred it will be the turn of the Christians. ...

• • this is number 7. Some unnamed Arab tells him, yup.

• Mother Jones Magazine‎

Magazine - Mar-Apr 1993 - v. 18, no. 2 "After Saturday comes Sunday" is a famous Muslim saying, sometimes interpreted to mean that after the fundamentalists finish the Jews, they'll deal with the ...

• • this is already cited in the article (its by Israel Amrani), so we are still at number 7.

• The PFLP's changing role in the Middle East‎ - Page 178

by Harold M. Cubert - History - 1997 - 235 pages Another slogan, After Saturday comes Sunday', could be understood as an indication that after finishing with the Jews, Hamas will turn to the Christians . ...

• • Number 8. Notice the ambivalent language "could be understood as".

• Barbed wire shall not return to Jerusalem‎ - Page 9

by Yosef Tekoah - History - 1968 - 43 pages The report states, inter alia: "'After Saturday comes Sunday, an Arab tells me' -the proverb meaning that after the Jews are massacred it will be the turn ...

• • this is the same as number 7, which means we are still at number 8.

• Joint Publications Research Service report. Near East & South Asia‎ - Page 8

by United States. Joint Publications Research Service, United States. Foreign Broadcast Information Service - History ... "After Saturday, comes Sunday," meaning that the forces of Islamic fundamentalism will turn to fighting the Christians after they have fought the Jews. ...

• • Number 9.

• Note that on the 2nd page of the search you linked to, the listing shrinks to 19 instead of 25. And there are the following:

• Joint Publications Research Service report. Near East & South Asia‎

by United States. Joint Publications Research Service, United States. Foreign Broadcast Information Service - History Page 9 After Saturday comes Sunday. The latter slogan was the most serious since ... the Jews today, the resistance will move to resisting the Christians tomorrow. ...

• • Number 10.

• I saw the battle of Jerusalem‎ - Page 2

by Harry Levin - History - 1950 - 288 pages They never quite forgot the old cry of the Moslem fanatics' "After. Saturday comes Sunday," after the turn of the Jews come* that of the Christians. ...

• • Number 11.

• Problems of World War II and its aftermath‎ - Page 269

by United States. Congress. House. Committee on Foreign Affairs, United States. Congress. House. Committee on International Relations - History - 1976 But you talk with most Arabs and they will tell you, "And don't forget, after Saturday comes Sunday," moaning after we kill the Jews, symbolized by Saturday ...

• • Number 12.

• Selected executive session hearings of the committee, 1943-50 ...‎ - Page 269

by United States. Congress. House. Committee on International Relations - History - 1976 But you talk with most Arabs and they will tell you, "And don't forget, after Saturday comes Sunday," meaning after we kill the Jews, symbolized by Saturday ...

• • Same as number 12.

• Selected Executive Session Hearings of the Committee, 1943-50; Volume II ...‎ - Page 269

by United States. Congress. House. Committee on Foreign Affairs, United States. Congress. House. Committee on Foreign Affairs. Subcommittee No. 2 (Foreign Affairs)., United States. Congress. House. Committee on International Relations - History - 1976 - 600 pages ... after Saturday comes Sunday," meaning after we kill the Jews, symbolized by Saturday, we go to work on those symbolized by Sunday ; in other words, ...

• • Number 13.

The last 4 listings we cannot know what they refer to since we cannot see inside. Note at least one of them seems entirely unrelated being entitled:

• Tracing land use across ancient boundaries: letters on the use of land in ...‎

by Walter Clay Lowdermilk, United States. Soil Conservation Service - Business & Economics - 1939 - 133 pages

So there is a total of 13 sources, not 28. Three of them are from US foreign house committee meetings, all held in 1976. Two of these are, "Joint Publications Research Service report. Near East & South Asia‎ by United States," of unknown date (could they perhaps be referring to the committee meetings?) One is an American universities field report from 1961. That means at least 5 (arguably 6) of the 13 total sources are from US government affiliated bodies dating between 1961 and 1976. Its not clear who the speaker is (if its part of a debate, on what, etc.) and whether some of these are summaries of one another. The 7 sources left, well if you think they establish notability and provide enough information for a decent article, I guess we can politely disagree. I'll see what happens to the article with time. Like I said, I think its an American invention. No one I know uses it, or even understands what it supposedly means, and its dissemination by people who are not known for their love of Islam or Arabs makes me suspect its propaganda. Anyway, happy editing. Tiamut 00:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

FYI

I've requested you retract this. ATren (talk) 23:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Noted. Consider your request rejected. Raul654 (talk) 23:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course you won't retract it, because you know the rules don't apply to you. That's precisely the problem Abd is trying to address, and while I wish he would refine his approach and not post so much verbiage, I still support his argument. Judging by the current state of the case, I think many on the committee and in the community agree. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that I'm not the one wearing blinders. ATren (talk) 23:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course you won't retract it, because you know the rules don't apply to you - you are the one who seems to think reality doesn't apply to you. You don't get to play the role of GoRight apologist for months or years at a time, then demand someone not call you one. That's precisely the problem Abd is trying to address - yea, his cabal allegations, for which the arbcom is passing an FOF that they have no credibility whatsoever, were real convincing. Judging by the current state of the case, I think many on the committee and in the community agree. - what are you talking about? There is broad community support for sanctions on Abd, and GoRight has done an excellent job of demonstrating to everyone there that he isn't much better. Raul654 (talk) 14:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Blinders, indeed. ATren (talk) 14:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

This is in relation to a separate comment, but the general gist of it is the same; comments such as this cross the line into personal attacks ("You contribute nothing of value to Misplaced Pages - if this were the case, he'd have been blocked long ago and we wouldn't be here.) Your comments have taken a generally more pointed tone of late, and I do need to ask you to tone it down some. If users are asking you to retract or rephrase comments, please try to take an objective look at them and consider rephrasing. The belief that others are behaving with a less than optimal standard of behavior does not give you leave to do the same. Thank you. Hersfold 04:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with your analysis. I think it's a fully accurate description of Abd's behavior, and in addition to Abd I can cite numerous exceptions to your claim that if this were the case, he'd have been blocked long ago and we wouldn't be here. (Plautus Satire, for one). Nonetheless, I have removed the comment. Raul654 (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Raul, you claim recent "disruption" by Abd on Blacklight Power. Can you point to the specific disruptive edits there? He made 3 copy-edits on 8/18, and there have been 5 short, non-confrontational comments on the talk page. Is there a disruptive post I missed? If not, then I would suggest you remove that claim as well. ATren (talk) 17:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Give an example from the last 12 weeks or accept the statement as factual and fully acceptable per WP:SPADE. I find it somewhat disgusting how real threats and personal attacks seem to be ok if sufficiently veiled and buried under a landfill of verbiage, but much more harmless statements are deemed unacceptable because they are in the clear. Apparently nobody filters through Abd's output for diamonds (yeah, right) or turds anymore. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

If such an example of Abd contributing actual content exists, it should be easy to identify: He's only made a handful of edits in article namespace in the last 12 weeks: . Despite the walls of text (of the magnitude of one features article every two days), out of his ~2000 edits in the last 12 weeks less that 6% (115) were in article namespace. It appears, Abd is not here to write Misplaced Pages articles. He is here because he likes to engage in discussion. And what articles would be better suited for this, than the controversial ones? Last October he spent a month at Global warming, soon after he moved on to Cold fusion. But finally he seems to have found an even better place for endless debate... I really don't see the problem with Raul's comment. SPLETTE :] 08:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Abd's main contributions to the project are in areas of application of policy: as one example, facilitating the unbanning of Wilhelmina Will, who continues to contribute productively to mainspace. Abd also contributes directly in mainspace, and in spite of being overwhelmed by the arb case, has also continued to do so recently: (selected examples ). He also recently facilitated the arrival at consensus over what had been a long-term edit war at Rebecca Quick, and has contributed to the project in many other ways. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

This rationalization of attacks is typical of the problem that Abd is trying to address. Raul attacks with unsubstantiated charges, and the same 12-or-so people come to his defense, piling on the victim with more unsubstantiated claims. Yes, he has a problem with verbiage, and it's a severe problem that he must address, but it doesn't mean he should be subject to these kinds of attacks. He hasn't contributed anything? Please! Just because you disagree with what he does, that doesn't mean he doesn't contribute. It seems that some editors here believe that their POV is sacrosanct, and that anyone who challenges them is unproductive or even disruptive. That's the real problem. ATren (talk) 16:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)