Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:26, 13 December 2005

Karmafist

The last thing I wanted to do is run for arbcom, but from my dealings with the system at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing, I feel that it's necessary to enact some change.

My running is basically a protest against the arbitration process as it is, not against any particular member of the arbcom itself since I deeply respect all of them i've talked to individually. My goal will be a drastic reform of the entire arbitration system.

Although my hope is that this won't be the case, I would consider this entire election to be invalid if Jimbo Wales interfered in any way, unless he truly does look down upon other Wikipedians, thus destroying the idea that Misplaced Pages is Egalitarian, which I am beginning to believe is not the case.

My Ideas For the election, my ideas for reform seem to be in two areas. Policy Creation, Policy Education and Policy Enforcement/Interpretation

Policy Enforcement/Interpretation

1. A 3 person mini-arbcom at each section of rfc as an appelate device for rfcs gone awry, or not gaining a consensus to reduce the load on the arbcom, which will be known by another name.
2. A 7 person appelate arbcom for all cases not concluded in the sectional arbcoms to reduce the load on the "main arbcom".
3. Filing of Amicus Arbitrations for users who have broken policies while on probation, to be heard by a 3-7 person "Last Resort" Arbcom.
4. The right to a speedy arbitration for the subject of the arbitration
5. Regular updates by arbcom members on cases

Policy Education

1. A bi-yearly regular caucus, similiar to a Loya Jirga, on topics regarding the arbcom open to all wikipedians so they can know that they have input in the process, and to foster more confidence in the process.
2. A bi-yearly regular caucus, similiar to a Loya Jirga, on policies and how they relate to each other regarding former precedents and their intentions so regular users better know the ins and outs of confusing policies, particularly when they conflict.
3. Assistance by the entire system to admins and board who try to enforce policy, likely as another WP:AN subpage.

Policy Creation

1. A new bicameral legislative council to be named later run through sociocracy, basically as any consensus based portion of Misplaced Pages runs now, only bigger.
   • The "Lower" House would consist of all registered users, all of which could propose new policies(minimum time for discussion is 7 days, average would be 20-30, closed by admins or bureaucrats).
   • The "Upper" House would consist of a set number of elected users, with the majority being at large, but with a minority representing certain geographic regions in order to maintain a wide array of viewpoints that might vary with different cultures and locales. The "Upper" House's job would to either accept, refine, or reject policies passed by the "Lower" House.(minimum time for discussion is 7 days, the average would be 40 or so, but this is just a guess, closed when consensus is clear)
   • Jimbo would be the defacto sovereign, as he is now with the arbcom, but would be seen as a last resort. This would replace our now ambiguous and frustrating policy creation process.

Questions and Comments

Form question by Snowspinner

Being an arbitrator requires a finely tuned bullshit detector. What in your life has prepared you to detect bullshit with ease? Phil Sandifer 21:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Answer

I ran for the State Legislature. I was, and still am in District 19, one of the guys that didn't win, so i'll let you take a guess which one I was. I've been training, kind of a political Rocky Balboa (50/50 with trying to start a career), to win in 2006, and politics is almost nothing but bullshit. Would you like me to elaborate? karmafist 02:45, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Arbcom ideas good, rest, hmm

You asked me to come look, so here I am! :-)

• Your arbitration committee ideas aren't even half bad, deploying 3 (wo)man flying teams to rfcs might solve scaling issues.

• The policy idea is seriously suboptimal for use on wikis. :-) People do regularly propose similar systems, but they're not a good idea. (that and the proposal can't be linked to arbcom nominations, of course)

So on balance, some good ideas and some bad ideas. :-)

Kim Bruning 19:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The reason democratic review is suboptimal on wikis, is because wikis have a revert button and the real world does not. If someone were to (accidentally) blow up Queen Elizabeth, you're in big trouble, so you're going to need a complete system of laws and checks and balances to prevent that from happening. If you accidentally blank Queen Elizabeth on the other hand, you can just revert. Kim Bruning 19:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your question Kim! I think we miscommunicated somewhere there, that analogy doesn't quite fit, but even if it was, I think Queen Elizabeth would get sick of being reverted all the time.

However, the sociocratic (not democratic) body i'm talking about is about policy creation, not about policy enforcement. Right now the process seems to be some kind of arcane anarchic process that doesn't really seem to hold that much weight anyway since they can be whittled and dittled almost at will as long as you don't cross the "invisible line" of changing them if they don't work they're intended to, which will happen over time. I think everything regarding the internal workings of Misplaced Pages should be clear and fairly generalized instead of gaining flexibility at the expense of sturdyness. Let the rfcs and this new "arbcom system" refine the generalities through new precedents, which the policy making body can change later on if needed.karmafist 02:53, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you familiar with the Nupedia story? Kim Bruning 05:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I also don't see how Nupedia relates to the "Wiki-Legislature" either, anybody could propose new policies or fixing policies, the only difference is it would be along lines similiar to afd at the first level, and a mix of the arbcom and afd at the second level, better than the edit wars/talk page free for alls regarding policy reforms we seem to have now. karmafist 06:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, AFD is not really considered successful... Kim Bruning 00:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

It's far more successful than just about any other blank-f-blank. karmafist 07:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Punishment

I've noticed two instances of you (Karmafist) using blocking as a means to punish (and hence take revenge) or threaten users who have upset you. I'm talking about events surrounding diff 1, diff 2. Is this how you will approach the arbcom? This is not meant as an attack on you, it's just the vibe I have recieved and I'd like you to clarify. Even as I write this I fear you will block me for my comment, which is not a comfortable/neccessary postion for any Wikipedian to be in.--Commander Keane 18:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer

Commander Keane, thank you for your question, and don't worry, you don't have anything to fear from me. Pigsonthewing had been harrassing me (mainly on WP:AN/I) and numerous other users, in particular Leonig Mig, who had to create a new user account to avoid harrassment. Yet, the arbcom did nothing, despite the fact POTW ignored his rfc and his rfar.

I think the arbcom should be more proactive, one way or another, and I will not stand by while users like POTW escalate hostility. karmafist 19:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Cease making personal attacks. I have harassed no-one. Andy Mabbett 19:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You see, this is a perfect example. POTW, and many others like him don't seem to understand the finer points of policy or twist policy to serve their own needs by believing something is something or not something regardless of if that's true. POTW does this several times a week in regards to many users at WP:AN/I or WP:AN or WP:AN/3RR or on their talk pages or through revert wars or what have you. And I could give examples up the yazoo, but POTW will just be back here whining and complaining via the "Ostrich Method" (If I stick my head in the sand, it doesn't exist) or the "Megaphone Method"(If I yell loud enough, others will hear me, but I won't be able to hear them.)

People like POTW(those who don't wish to work with others when needed) are far more disruptive than any petty vandal, and the arbcom should be far more proactive in rehabilitating and reprimanding disruptive editors such as POTW.

For more information on what i'm talking about in regards to POTW, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Pigsonthewing and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing. karmafist 23:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Cease making personal attacks. Andy Mabbett 15:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you already said that, POTW. Or was the megaphone too loud for you to hear if anybody else was listening? POTW is symptomatic of another problem we're having on Misplaced Pages, often people feel like they can't get anything done unless they use the Megaphone Method or some kind of shady Cabalism. This needs to be changed, and hopefully some kind of Wiki-Legislature that standardizes and simplifies things for anyone who wants to get policies created, changed or annuled. karmafist 01:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Cease making personal attacks. Andy Mabbett 10:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

RFA vote comments

Do you think you'd be able to resist jumping on people who happen to vote against you on issues, and to refrain from gloating over Boothy's ban? I was kinda surprised to find you were an admin, let alone trying to get on the ArbCom Proto t c 15:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer to Proto

Proto, thank you for the question, and quite frankly, it's one of the reasons why I felt it was necessary to run. What Proto doesn't understand is that Kelly Martin often told me during the POTW case that "You don't have to save Misplaced Pages all by yourself, Misplaced Pages does not revolve around you." However, on Misplaced Pages:Requests for bureaucratship/Johnleemk, she basically opposed for the same reason -- Johnleemk had not entered her orbit of acknowledgement, which is an absurdly poor reason to oppose since there are hundreds of thousands of Wikipedians she does not know who do great things for this project, as Johnleemk had. That's behavior unbecoming of any Wikipedian, let alone an arbcom member, and such behavior sabotages our fragile sociocratic consensus system.

However, Proto didn't know this, because the arbcom and associated bodies are currently too over stretched to disseminate such information, and as a result, most Wikipedians go with their knee jerk reaction to situations that are multi layered and complex, like Proto's second comment.

At Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/WikiFanatic, I attempted to calm the nerves of the candidate, who has basically talked about nothing other than adminship for the past few months on the Misplaced Pages IRC Channel. He was incredibly anxious, and needed something to calm his nerves so he wouldn't mae a faux pas. I took the now urban legend rfa WP:POINT violator Boothy443, and made a joke about it, calming Wikifanatic down and making a whole bunch of people laugh in the process. Ral315 and me had disagreements over this, but like the above, it was largely due to miscommunication. Me and Ral talked it over, and eventually learned to respect each others' shortcomings, even if we did not entirely agree on philosophies regarding Misplaced Pages itself. I'd like to offer that same olive branch to Proto right here since Proto has followed a path similiar to Ral's recently in regards to this, and similiar to Ral, is a damn fine contributor to this project from what I've known.

However, in the future, the arbcom and related boards must be far more pro-active in preventing these kinds of potential powderkegs, and in order to do this, I think drastic changes that most of the "entrenched" candidates are not willing to take, despite their otherwise vast abilities, are necessary. karmafist 16:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Questions from User:-Ril-

The following questions are for each candidate, and do not specifically target you

Do you hold any strong political or religious opinions (e.g. concerning George Bush, Islam, or on which end you should break a boiled egg)? If so, would you recuse yourself from cases centred on these?

• First off, thanks for the question -Ril-/victim of signature fascism(which title do you prefer?), I appreciate your participation in this process. I do have somewhat strong political opinions which have been reduced by the Wikipedian mindset. For example, me and MONGO were involved in an edit war at George W. Bush around a year ago, something I regretted so much that I only edited that page once afterwards (don't ask me to find the diff). My regret apparently was mutual in Mongo's opinion as he said at my rfa, and I returned his kindness by supporting him by nominating him for adminship.

How willing are you to contest the decisions of other arbitrators rather than just "go with the flow"?

• I'm a strong admirer of Paul Wellstone, and it was once said that he'd be the 1 in a 99-1 vote if that's what he truly believed in. I'll try to follow in his footsteps.

Do you view all requests to re-address cases, particularly requests made by those most penalised, as being automatically without merit?

• Absolutely not, each case is unique. However, they'd be redressed by a separate arbcom to reduce case load.

In the case against Yuber, it was decided by the arbitration committee that it is the duty of arbitrators to investigate, and rule on the behaviour of not only one party involved, but all of them. Do you support this decision? Does your visible behaviour on recent cases reflect this decision?

• It does, although I believe the arbcom needs to be vastly expanded in order to achieve this goal. karmafist 23:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

--Victim of signature fascism 16:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Question from Marsden

Many people have noted that Misplaced Pages's original communitarian structure is no longer functioning very well. One editor has suggested that ArbCom is "about getting the trains to run on time," which is a reference to a fulfulled promise of Mussolini's fascist government. Do you agree that Misplaced Pages needs to become more orderly, and if so, do you think there are any options other than a move toward a more centrally controlled authoritarian system? Do you think that the spirit of cooperation in Misplaced Pages would survive such a change? Marsden 15:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer

I don't think such a change is necessary, although I do believe that our current approach that a scattered approach is appropriate either since there should be some uniformity in how we resolve disputes so we don't get any double standards or misconceptions among how things work on the arbcom. Rulings should be based on interpretation of precedent rather than perception whenever possible. karmafist 22:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Some questions being asked of all the candidates by jguk

Q: How old are you and what do you do? (If student, please state what subjects you are studying.)

A: 24 year old realtor, although i'm looking for other careers.

Q: How many hours a month do you think you will need to be a good Arbitrator and are you really willing to put in the time?

A: I assume 20-30, but that's with an expanded arbcom system. I won't be able to tell until I get there, since I've never had to be an arbcom member before, and my methodology may differ in time requirements from other arbcom members.

Q: If chosen, you will need to arbitrate on disputes arising from the creation or revision of articles. Experience of creating and revising articles yourself, particularly where it has involved collaboration, is very valuable in understanding the mindset of disputants who come to arbitration. With reference to your own edits in the main article namespace, please demonstrate why you think you have the right experience to be a good arbitrator.

A: I don't usually get involved in article disputes, but I have to a smaller extent regarding non-user rfcs, trying to reform the process into a templatized affair, similiar to user rfcs, rather than what is my opinion, a "free for all" process where users are invited to go to an usually tumultuous talk page and join the fray. My current examples of this are at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Democrat userbox and Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Ward Churchill.

Q: Please list out what other Misplaced Pages usernames you have edited under.

A: None, unless there i'm editing unconsciously. You'll have to ask my psyche on that one. karmafist 22:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Question from a newbie

A quote of a question posed by -Ril- (and your answer):

In the case against Yuber, it was decided by the arbitration committee that it is the duty of arbitrators to investigate, and rule on the behaviour of not only one party involved, but all of them. Do you support this decision? Does your visible behaviour on recent cases reflect this decision?

• It does, although I believe the arbcom needs to be vastly expanded in order to achieve this goal. karmafist 23:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

After reading the above, I was reminded of what you said here and here. Have you since 18:24, 29 November 2005 revised your opinion on "the case against Yuber"? 131.155.229.224 12:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Reply

Thanks for your question, I can see how you could see that as difficult to interpret, and I think I understand why since I focused more on it is the duty of arbitrators to investigate whereas I assume you focused on the behaviour of not only one party involved, but all of them. Before I go on, I'd like to recommend to you getting an account, you just click on where it says "Sign In/Create Account" at the top right hand side of your screen, it takes two seconds and doesn't require any money or e-mail address.

Nine times out of ten, there is likely to be nothing out of order with the initiator to the extent that something actually will need to be done, even though arbitrators should check to make sure. If there is something, I'd suggest an approach similiar to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/FuelWagon v. Ed Poor, renaming and clarifying the rfar to identify that both sides are now "defendants" in regards to the rfar.

In the diffs you are pointing out, a user believing that I was acting out of bad faith, was attempting to make the proceedings about me rather than about the topic, and I offered to move aside if I was getting in the way of the proceedings, since the discussion on the user which the rfar was based upon was the focus there, and I assumed that some may have seen my zeal getting the discussion off topic. The only response I got was from Fred Bauder, who said "Just don't get carried away, you're not hearding cattle here."karmafist 22:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I can see your point. It's the duty of arbitrators to investigate the initiator(s), and, perhaps initially, not of those providing the evidence. Personally, I would expect "evidence" to provide a well rounded picture of the situation, regardless whether the situation concerns just one "Involved party" or more, defendant or arbitration initiator or even plain user. I believe the evidence provided regarding you, did have some bearing to the case. Perhaps thanks to your zeal. I thank you for your reply and your recommendation. I'll consider creating that account, but for the moment I'm comfortable with just my IP address. Best of luck with the elections. You're very brave for applying for this. 131.155.229.224 02:14, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! Please let me know if I can help you in the future, and please let others you meet on Misplaced Pages about this election, it's going to affect us for a long time coming. karmafist 16:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

As the "user" in question I'll just repeat that this claim that I 'was attempting to make the proceedings about you' is untrue. The ArbCom needs to consider background and reasons for behaviour, and in that case some of your actions were highly relevant to these issues. I included only a fraction of that evidence (what I felt was needed to prove the issue), did not bring in any information about you not related to the Pigsonthewing arbitration, and (most notably) did not propose or even support any 'principles', 'findings', 'remedies', or 'enforcement' actions directed at you... indeed, I actually argued against such. I did suggest that a temporary injunction should be applied, but that seemed a given under the circumstances. --CBD ☎ 22:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Then we'll have to agree to disagree considering that every edit in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing/Evidence#Evidence presented by User:CBDunkerson#Abuse and Harassment had to do with me in some way, and since he was blocked twice before I even met him, and twice since the rfar closed four days ago in addition to the eight times he was blocked by users other than myself during the rfar that he decided to ignore completely.

When someone is that thick headed(and I assume this'll be seen by my detractors as a violation of WP:NPA, even though he definately isn't learning to co-exist with others, as per his continuing blocks),it takes a tougher stance than average, which currently the arbcom isn't ready to take. karmafist 07:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Instruction creep

When you mentioned your ideas on the Village Pump, people thought it was a parody of Misplaced Pages policy, not an actual attempt to enact new ones. Can you do anything to make your policy more comprehensible, with less instruction creep? rspeer 17:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Sure, I'd love to. Please feel free to refine it if you'd like. karmafist 22:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Also: word count nitpicking

The suggested statement length was 250 words. Yours is over 500. Can't you shorten it so your statement isn't twice as prominent as the ones for candidates who followed the guidelines? rspeer 20:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll do a summary and put the main bulk of the proposals on a user sub page. I'll post it on here once i've done so. karmafist 22:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposed creation of an Arbitration Committee Code of Conduct

Do you support the creation of a Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Code of Conduct as I have just now suggested at User talk:Jimbo Wales#A sincere question? - Ted Wilkes 18:37, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe most arbcom members follow this already, but a codification would be appropriate, even though I can't follow WP:AGF here in regards to your motives due to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Wilkes, Wyss and Onefortyone. I may disagree with many of the arbcom members, but keep in mind even though they haven't come up with a decision on that rfar yet, I would likely be tougher than them on any rulings. karmafist 17:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Policy

Given that this position involves the interpretation and carrying out of policy, why should someone who ignores policy be on the arbitration committee? I'm refering to your continued creation of new stub types without following the policy of first proposing them and giving them names that are in violation of the stub sorting naming guidelines. This is after you had already been informed of these, so ignorance cannot be claimed on as an excuse on your part. Caerwine Caerwhine 21:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I would just like to note that it's not a requirement to propose new stubs at WP:WSS/P, and that neither WP:WSS nor WP:WSS/P are backed by any policy. Policies are those such as WP:V, WP:NOR or WP:NPA. —Locke Cole 22:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

However, the stub naming guidelines are part of WP:NC which is policy. Caerwine Caerwhine 23:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The answer would be no on that as well. You'll also note the precise wording used at WP:NC– "This page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages.". It doesn't say "This page, and all pages linked from this page, are official policy on Misplaced Pages." (and nor should it). —Locke Cole 03:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Even going by just the text on WP:NC, the stub templates that Karmafist created broke the naming conventions. WP:WSS/NG's main function is to give a long-winded explanation with examples of what the paragraph on WP:NC says much more suscinctly. Caerwine Caerwhine 04:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Answer

Thanks for your question, Caerwine. Ignoring policy is in itself policy when a user believes that they have no other option -- WP:IAR. Right now anything regarding stubs (WP:WSS, WP:SFD, etc.) is basically in the hands of a few instruction creep fans, such as Caerwine above. After seeing a several month long debate with the now {{New-Hampshire-State-Highway-Stub}}, I lost most of my faith in the stub system. The rest of which was eroded to nothing by a series of low level WP:NPA vios (closer to arrogant remarks than actual personal attacks) , ,, among more that I may have missed. (WP:NPA needs to be fixed too, it's become the Misplaced Pages version of jaywalking, but one step at a time.) To me, WP:WSS/NG won't be acceptable until it's no longer than a section long since it should be intuitive, and WP:SFD won't be acceptable until consenseii there can be trusted, which apparently isn't the case since Grutness opened a new proposal for deletion on December 10th {{New Hampshire-stub}} a day after the same stub was proposed for deletion, and he saw that he wasn't going to be able to get consensus like he's gotten so many times before since most SFDs aren't opposed. karmafist 18:27, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Of course, WP:IAR itself is not policy, and in my view is highly illegitamate when applied to administrative actions, as opposed to editing issues. This favorable citation alone IMO disqualifies User:Karmafist from being an acceptable candidate for the arnbcom. So do his other attitudes on this page IMO. Soemone so impationent with process does not strike me as a good candidate for teh arbcom, where process is vital. DES 18:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Good thing i'm not a candidate for "teh arnbcom", eh DES? ;-)

In my opinion, the system is on the verge of failure, particularly since you seemed to Ignore All Rules with Ignore All Rules, unilaterally claiming a consensus from a mere talk page discussion.. What we need isn't smoke filled room opinion pushers like DES here, but a clear and codifed system for establishing policy where consensii are out in the open and fairly clear, like WP:AFD. Until that day, i'll IAR at will whenever something gets in my way or someone else's way or building a better encyclopedia. karmafist 07:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Reply

As you noted, the second SFD you refer to was for a separate redirect discovered the day after after the initial SFD. In order to ensure the full seven days, it couldn't simply be folded into the original, and it would be quite possible and has been the case in the past that votes for a template and a redirect to the same will be different. It would have been nice if Grutness had noticed the redirect at the same time and been a bit more civil about it.

In any case, that's not what I referring to. The stub I was referring to in my question was the one for real estate you created on the 9th and nothing to do with the mess in either the state stubs or the highway stubs which have engendered controversy. The only reasons I can see why you chose to not propose it were either haste, or a desire for a prefered name that didn't following the naming conventions, since the stub type itself is not proving at all controversial.

I'll be the first to admit that the SFD for the various state highway stubs was not well managed, mainly because it tried to tackle too many issues at once. (" " vs. "-"; -Stub vs. -stub; -State-Highway- vs. -state-highway-; and -State-Highway- vs. -road-) That's one reason I stayed clear of that particular mess.

You've complained that the naming guidelines are unclear, perhaps you would care to propose an alternative? The core guidelines are given in a simple seven sentence section at the start, the rest of the naming guidelines page explains the reasoning behind them and details the known exceptions, which are mainly stubs that predate the naming guidelines. The exceptions section has gotten much shorter over time as execeptions have been taken to SfD. Hopefully, we won't need an exceptions section in a few months, either because the exceptions will have been made to follow the guidelines or the guidelines adapted to fit the exceptions that have been kept. Caerwine Caerwhine 22:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Reply To The Reply

I'd love to give an alternative, and i'm only sorry that it takes this much whining (no offense to your sig there) to get it listened to it seems. Ultimately, that was one of the biggest reasons why I ran for this position, I'd like to spearhead a place where policy can be proposed and worked upon without it blowing into the wind like what we have now at the Village Pump, and usually "Pulling an Ed Poor"(deleting such a well tread page) doesn't work. If I tried to propose policy regarding this at the Village Pump or one of the stub areas, it'd more than likely be swiftly ignored.

Here's my idea.

1. Every word except "stub" is always capitalized.
2. No abbreviations, except for when the category is better known as an acronym(even then, if an alternative exists, it's preferable)
3. Hyphens are used at every level and before "stub"

And that's it. Period.

Personally, I believe that any overcomplicated policy in regards to things that may act as a "gateway drug" for further involvement in Misplaced Pages (such as stubs or Collaborations) is a WP:BITE country.

That was ultimately my impetus to making the redirects. A newcomer or non-regular stub adder should not have to deal with the organization of stubs, that's WP:WSSes job. Their jobs should be to put the stubs on the articles. If they want to go further from there, fine. But they shouldn't have to learn an arcane set of guidelines and precedents in order to help Misplaced Pages. karmafist 01:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to think that you'd have gotten a fair hearing without making a ruckus, but we'll never know now. Your ideas aren't all that radical, tho I agree with only some of them. The last section of WP:WSS/P is set aside for proposals concerning stubs to do something more ambitious than creating a new stub or the deletion or removal of an existing one. I'll address my points to your proposal when I see it there so as to avoid any further clutter here. Caerwine Caerwhine 04:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to think so as well, but i've been burned too many times in the past few months in regards to things like WSS and related areas, one of the biggest reasons why i'm here. Thanks for reaching out though, i'm glad we could move forward instead of backward. karmafist 07:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)