Talk:Hazaras: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 17:57, 3 September 2009 editTime Buddha (talk \| contribs)18 edits →User:Tajik's double standard on Iranian peoples and Hazara people: new section← Previous edit		Revision as of 23:02, 3 September 2009 edit undoTajik (talk \| contribs)11,859 edits →User:Tajik's double standard on Iranian peoples and Hazara people Next edit →
Line 149:		Line 149:

	In this on iranian peoples, User:Tajik restored a section which said azeris and uzbeks are iranian peoples even though they speak turkic language because they descend from iranian peoples. In this on Talk:Hazara people, User:Tajik say '''language''' is the main factor for ethnic identiy in the middle east, so User:Tajik could claim hazaras are iranian peoples, but Hazaras are descended from mongols, and therefore not iranian.] (]) 17:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)		In this on iranian peoples, User:Tajik restored a section which said azeris and uzbeks are iranian peoples even though they speak turkic language because they descend from iranian peoples. In this on Talk:Hazara people, User:Tajik say '''language''' is the main factor for ethnic identiy in the middle east, so User:Tajik could claim hazaras are iranian peoples, but Hazaras are descended from mongols, and therefore not iranian.] (]) 17:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

			: You totally misunderstand the definition of ]. You also falsify (!) attached scholastic sources. I had asked you to stop it, but obviously, you are not interested in constructive working. Instead of falsifying (!) attached sources, you should read them first! ] (]) 23:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:02, 3 September 2009

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hazaras article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3

Hazaras was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 5, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
February 9, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed

Current status: Former good article nominee

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Ethnic groups High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Afghanistan

	Afghanistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, a project to maintain and expand Afghanistan-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AfghanistanWikipedia:WikiProject AfghanistanTemplate:WikiProject AfghanistanAfghanistan
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Central Asia High‑importance

	Asia portal Hazaras is part of WikiProject Central Asia, a project to improve all Central Asia-related articles. This includes but is not limited to Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Tajikistan, Tibet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Xinjiang and Central Asian portions of Iran, Pakistan and Russia, region-specific topics, and anything else related to Central Asia. If you would like to help improve this and other Central Asia-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.Central AsiaWikipedia:WikiProject Central AsiaTemplate:WikiProject Central AsiaCentral Asia
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Iran

	Iran portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Pakistan

	Pakistan portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pakistan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pakistan on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PakistanWikipedia:WikiProject PakistanTemplate:WikiProject PakistanPakistan
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Buddhism

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Buddhism. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page for more details on the projects.BuddhismWikipedia:WikiProject BuddhismTemplate:WikiProject BuddhismBuddhism
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Template:Werdnabot

Sunni Hazaras

There are many sunni Hazaras like Aimaks and Hazaras in north eastern Hazarjat, sunni Hazaras associate and blur themselves with Turkmen and Uzbeks rather than Tajiks and Pashtuns.

Hazaras call themselves Azra

All Hazaras call themselves Azra. When it comes to writing and interactoin with other peoples then Hazaras use Hazara to be understood better by others.

I suggest it is necessary to make a note on this matter on the main article. Thank you.

Hazara Tribes

I've wrote down the names of few Hazara tribes I knew, please expand and correct it if you find some error. And no Hazara calls himself Azra, 'Hazara' would be more better while referring us.

Comments on Etymology/Origins by user: ShirbachaHazara

    Hazara means thousand??? are you kidding Mr.Author??? wake up for God's sake,

and hit some books my friend. The Hazaras have nothing to do with Mongols. The Hazaras have been living in the region (Gharjistan, Zabulistan and present day Hazaristan) way long before invasion of Mongol to Hazaristan.

    According to your research we have been in Afghanistan only for 700-800 yrs (Ghengis Khan history) then you think, what you've just proved with your article... As much as we might be mixed with Mongols to an extend, you shouldn't be all that proud to be of his blood line.

We had history and the same look way before invasion of Far East and till parts of Europe by Ghengiz Khan. Our statue proves it(the statue of Bamiyan) Chinese history book proves that, and so does some English and Persian History to an extend, covers all the history, kingdoms and native people's of those regions in the past 2000 - 4000 years ago.

    The Hazaras have been living in Aryana, Khorasan and present day Afghanistan for more than six thousand years (Tarikhe Hazaraha, writer Mr. Kazim Yazdani) with his historical prove.

thus, calling the Hazaras as descendants of Ghengiz khan is a big insult to the proud Hazara Nation.

    The word “ Hazara” is also an ancient Aryan word meaning happy and famous.

For me this concept of relation between the words Hazara and ming (1ooo) makes no sense. As a Farsi native speaker; I can argue that every Farsi speaking person can easily realize that the word .Hazara. doesn’t mean thousand; thus there is an obvious distinction between .Hazar. which means thousand and .Hazara. which really can’t be translated as thousand. If so, then we can translate the word .Lakh. meaning .hundred thousand. in Farsi to .lakha. which means a dirty dot on your cloths or a sign on your body and same with any other numeric number. Though, Hazara can be linked to the thousandth year in its Farsi meaning as Dah (ten) or Sad (hundred) which in turn becomes Daha (the tenth year) and Sada (the hundredth year). Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShirbachaHazara (talk • contribs)

The Hazaras have nothing to do with Mongols.

The Hazaras have been living in the region (Gharjistan, Zabulistan and present day Hazaristan) way long before invasion of Mongol to Hazaristan.

As much as we might be mixed with Mongols to an extend, you shouldn't be all that proud to be of his blood line.

The Hazaras have been living in Aryana, Khorasan and present day Afghanistan for more than six thousand years (Tarikhe Hazaraha, writer Mr. Kazim Yazdani) with his historical prove.

thus, calling the Hazaras as descendants of Ghengiz khan is a big insult to the proud Hazara Nation.

The word “ Hazara” is also an ancient Aryan word meaning happy and famous.

Population

CIA's estimate (%9) is the lowest estimate. Iranica estimates them as about 20% (one fifth) of the population of Afghanistan. Both extreme estimates (among reliable sources) should be mentioned. Alefbe (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Iranica estimates them ca. 8% of the population. This number is surprisingly close to the most recent surveys available. see Afghanistan#Ethnic_groups. The Hazara population is blending into the Tajik population, so that it's impossible to differentiate between them. Unless people explicitly identify as "Tajik" or "Hazara", one cannot tell the difference. The differentiation between "Persian", "Tajik", "Hazara" or "Aimaq" is political and based on certain historical events. from an ethnolinguistic point of view, there shouldn't be any differentiation. That's why I have suggested to create 3 different article:

Then, articles such as Persian people, Tajiks or Hazaras should have only an etymological purpose, explaining the different stages in history. Tajik (talk) 13:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I am okay with this at face value as I have told you this before, but now trying to state that Hazara have little difference from Tajiks is a whole different story, and even if it is a view of some sources, is contradicted by the majority of WP:reliable sources. Even if there is a blending, you still have a good amount of history where these two groups were clearly distinguishable. Yes, Aimaq is understandable, but with Tajiks? Speaking Persian as your native language does not suddenly erase strong ethnic and cultural definitions. One's culture and identity is not based on language alone: it is not simply politics alone which have created these divisions (the Aimaq/Hazara one was political, as were others, but certainly not Tajik and Hazara). I've agreed with you in the past but if this is the view you have to the "Persian-speaker" articles I am going to have to strongly disagree. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 06:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, language is the main factor for ethnic identity, especially in the Middle East. The differences between Hazaras and Tajiks are nonexistent anymore. The physical differences of the past are blending into each other after some 1000 years. I would like to remind you that the Durrani Pashtuns are also different from the Ghilzai Pashtuns in terms of ethnic origin, history, etc. In fact, until today, these two groups are bitterly opposed to each other. Yet, they are still considered "Pashtuns" due to their common Pashto language. As for "Aimaq", please read the respective article in Iranica. "Tajik" is simply a designation for Persian-speaking, non-tribal, urban people. Bayram Khan, though an ethnic Turkoman, was labeld "Tajik" by the Mughals and Safavids. Therefore, a Persian-speaking, non-tribal, urban Hazara is very well - by definition - a "Tajik". Read the respective article in Encyclopaedia of Islam. Tajik (talk) 11:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I knew you how you were going to argue this; it's not something we're going to solve here. The reason a Pashtun speaker is Pashtun is because of Pashtunwali which also needs your father to be Pashtun and for you to adhere to Pashtunwali. According to some definitions I am not Pashtun because I am not Sunni for example, some Pashtuns consider us Iranians who simply adopted the Pashtun lifestyle, even though the spread of Shi'a Islam among Pashtuns can be linked with the Ismaili state in Multan. I agreed about the Aimaq thing; the Tajik-Hazara issue, even in light of the articles, I cannot say your conclusion and way of presenting the issue is correct. We will review the reliable sources at hand and come to a conclusion with the community. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 17:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

RV

I have reverted a number of edits by anon IPs because they were falsifying the given sources. Tajik (talk) 22:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I have once again corrected the mistakes put into the article by anon IPs. Tajik (talk) 21:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I've restored the stable version of July 19th. Tajik (talk) 15:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I have once again reverted obvious vandalism by anon IPs. Tajik (talk) 15:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

additional important update on Hazara women's education and political activities Asia/Europe.

Hazaras are democratic and peace loving as a nation. Hazaras welcome women as leaders and do not prevent them from education. Infact Hazara mothers push their children to obtain education by reminding them of the period of Abdul rehman, especially due to the fact that the Pashtons tried their best to keep Hazaras as illiterate minority for generations.

Hazara women have against all odds managed to obtain ph.D through schorlarship from Pakistan namely from German universities.

Hazara women as leaders: (In the 2004 presidential election, the highest female voter registration was recorded in Hazara areas.) For example, there were 13 women in the Central Committee of the Hazara Unity Party during the civil war of the 90s. No other party in Afghanistan had presence of women in such high-profile political roles.

Currently, the Chairperson of Afghanistan’s Independent Human Rights Commission and the former first vice-president of Afghanistan, Ms. Sima Samar, is a Hazara.

The first-ever female Governor in Afghanistan is Habiba Sarabi, another Hazara.

The first-ever female mayor in Afghanistan, Uzra Jaffery, is a Hazara.

In the 2004 presidential election, the highest female voter registration was recorded in Hazara areas.

Pakistan Quetta, Retired Captain Doctor Mrs. Ruquiya S. Hashmi is minister from Balochistan.

Denmark Copenhagen, The Hazara Union had as the very first migrant organization a 1. generation youth Laila Changezi as their president in 1988-89.

Persecution:

The pro taliban supporters target Hazaras, especially police and other important local leaders because of being Shia-Muslims. Recent years Baluchistan have insecure landscape due to the firce hold of lashkar-e taiba. Many prominent hazara fear for their lives, because they have repeated received threats from above mentioned pro-al-qaida supporters to leave Quetta for good or risk their lives and families. The laskar-e taiba have repeated cariied out assinations of police cadets and other youths in goverment service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metamethod (talk • contribs) 04:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Education: —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onereader (talk • contribs) 17:09, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

RV

I've reverted POV edits by an unknown IP. Tajik (talk) 16:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any good reason for removing sourced information or are you trying to tell us that Hazara people don't exist?Time Buddha (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Why did you remove a paragraph on sunni and ismaili hazaras??Time Buddha (talk) 21:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Your information is not sourced. In fact, you are actively manipulating and falsifying sources. The article in the Encyclopaedia Iranica, for example, starts with the sentence: The origins of the Hazāras are uncertain and much debated among scholars (see Bacon, 1951, 1963; Ferdinand, 1959; Schurmann, pp. 110-58; Gawecki, 1980; Poladi, pp. 1-29; Mousavi, pp. 19-43). It goes on with: Without taking side in this controversy (see also Ferdinand, 1959, 1964; Mousavi, pp. 28-31), it seems probable historically that the origins of the Hazāras lie with the Mongolian and Turkish groups which progressively penetrated the infertile mountainous region situated between Persia, Central Asia, and India between the 13th and the 15th centuries, mixed with the local population and adopted their language.

Iranica is an authoritative scholarly work and the standard reference work of Iranian studies. Your behavior is not helping. Tajik (talk) 22:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The paragraph on sunni and ismaili hazaras has nothing to do with iranica.Time Buddha (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Tajik's double standard on Iranian peoples and Hazara people

In this edit on iranian peoples, User:Tajik restored a section which said azeris and uzbeks are iranian peoples even though they speak turkic language because they descend from iranian peoples. In this edit on Talk:Hazara people, User:Tajik say language is the main factor for ethnic identiy in the middle east, so User:Tajik could claim hazaras are iranian peoples, but Hazaras are descended from mongols, and therefore not iranian.Time Buddha (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You totally misunderstand the definition of Iranian peoples. You also falsify (!) attached scholastic sources. I had asked you to stop it, but obviously, you are not interested in constructive working. Instead of falsifying (!) attached sources, you should read them first! Tajik (talk) 23:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories: