Misplaced Pages

:Featured article review/archive: Difference between revisions - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Featured article review Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 00:40, 11 September 2009 editYellowAssessmentMonkey (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers15,460 edits →Removed status: -2← Previous edit Revision as of 00:53, 14 September 2009 edit undoYellowAssessmentMonkey (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers15,460 edits →Removed status: +Next edit →
Line 50: Line 50:
==Kept status== ==Kept status==
==Removed status== ==Removed status==
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Thomas Pynchon/archive1}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Final Fantasy IV/archive2}} {{Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Final Fantasy IV/archive2}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Norman Borlaug/archive1}} {{Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Norman Borlaug/archive1}}

Revision as of 00:53, 14 September 2009

Pages are moved to sub-archives based on their nomination date, not closure date.

See the Misplaced Pages:Featured article removal candidates/archive for nominations under the previous FARC process.

Archives

Kept status

Removed status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:53, 14 September 2009 .

Thomas Pynchon

Review commentary

Notified: Anville (nom), Abaca, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Biography/Arts and entertainment

I am nominating this featured article for review because it lacks some references, may contain original research, and may not be neutral. It became a FA in March 2006. It has an unusual referencing format which may no longer be acceptable. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

  • 1a There is some weasel wording, e.g. Some made the point that this was ostensibly the culmination of Pynchon's career and a summation of his personal philosophy, while others noted that it was a "loose baggy monster" which had been pieced together from several long-time Pynchonian works-in-progress and offcuts from other of his novels.
  • 1b This is a biography of a living person so it probably needs updating
Books are mentioned that were to be published in 2009
  • lc There are sections that have few or no reference citations. e.g."Themes", "Influence"
These sections may reflect some original research, as opinions are given without citations.
  • 1d "Gravity's Rainbow" section has a {{pov}} tag and many {{citation needed}} tags
  • Per WP:LEAD, the lead needs to be beefed up so that it summarizes the article.

In general, this article appears to be very well written and well referenced (although the referencing format is idiosyncratic). For someone who is familiar with this author, I think this article can with a little work be brought up to standards. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, original research, neutrality, prose, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 00:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Just as a matter of interest, what do you see as wrong with the current lead exactly? I ask because I'm increasingly seeing LEAD being used to insist that certain types of material be added or removed. This is a guideline I helped to write, so I'm interested when I see it being used in ways that weren't really expected. SlimVirgin 19:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, considering so much of the article is unreferenced, the lead is probably a very good summary, even though it does not convey his importance as the awards mentioned are won by many. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This is the second FAR I've read tonight where a statement is made indicating that the referencing system needs to be changed or updated; I'm afraid incorrect information is taking hold at FAR. Both footnotes (using cite.php) and Harvard referencing are acceptable. Please see WP:WIAFA:
  • (c) consistent citations: where required by criterion 1c, consistently formatted inline citations using either footnotes (<ref>Smith 2007, p. 1.</ref>) or Harvard referencing (Smith 2007, p. 1)—see citing sources for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended.
    • SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: Looks like some referencing issues still need to be addressed. If editors are working on that, then that's fine for now, just keep an update here at this page when done. Cirt (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
      Could whoever's working on the article also add alt text to its 3 images? Please click on the "alt text" button at the upper right of this review page. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 12:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
    Anybody still working on this. Nothing since Aug 30, and a lot of the citations have a book with no page YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 01:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Delist. With only two inconsequential edits since Aug. 30 and some issues remaining to be resolved, it doesn't pass the FA criteria. There are citation needed tags, and as YellowMonkey said, page numbers are needed in several of the book citations. Drop me a note if you fix these, and I'll strike my opinion. JKBrooks85 (talk) 07:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment - It's emblematic that by far the largest category of Featured Articles is the one on Warfare. That makes it look like a warmonger Misplaced Pages. We have a number of fine articles on science, which is the only area where Misplaced Pages gives his best, although even there the culture of providing the best and broadest body of references is still not consolidated. There is the ridiculous case of the Ronald Reagan article, which got promoted to Featured status, despite been just dummies propaganda. When we come to literature, and the humanities in general, despite the 8 years since Misplaced Pages has been in place, we are still down to the level of a small-town high school teacher. The subject of this article is considered by experts in the field to be one of the best writers ever, along with Joyce and Nabokov. Articles on these top subjects should be at an Academic level, it's a pity for Misplaced Pages that this one is not there yet. Sum (talk) 10:34, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment. I continue to wonder at the inconsistency of the citations. Why are there no page numbers for many book references? Why are only two of the four references to Gussow 1998 clickable? Is it because the "back" buttone will not work for the last two? Also, as mentioned above, this article on an important author is woefully in adequate. For example, the "Influence" section mostly an prose list and is not well cited. It is not specific and makes statements like "Examples of such works might include ..." and "Other contemporary American authors whose fiction is often categorized alongside Pynchon's include ...". It is way shorter than the "Media scrutiny" section, which should be considered less important than the influence of a major writer. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:27, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:40, 11 September 2009 .

    Final Fantasy IV

    Review commentary

    Notified: Crazyswordsman, Deckiller, Judgesurreal777, WikiProject Square Enix, WikiProject Video games

    I am nominating this featured article for review because it has several issues that need to be taken care of. This article was nominated for FA back in 2006 when standards were substantially lower. Here are my concerns:

    • The lead contains refs which is unnecessary as per WP:LEADCITE if the information is cited in the body, which it is. Common terms and unnecessary links must also be removed, e.g. 1991 in video gaming and North America. Also, I don't know if it's necessary to include refs in the infobox; most video game articles don't.
    • The gameplay section has a few uncited statements, and the last paragraph is only two sentences; it should be merged into another paragraph.
    • The story section is tagged with {{plot}}, and is in serious need of a good trimming. Eight full paragraphs of plot information is unacceptable.
    • The development section is very sparse, with most of the information pertaining to music. An FA cannot simply have three sentences of development information.
    • The Versions and re-releases section is very long and hard to read as a lot of the content is undue weight. The section needs to be trimmed down a la FF1#Versions and re-releases for better readability. The section also has a {{fact}} tag in it.
    • The reception section needs to be expanded. As it's an old game it may be hard to find ample reviews, but it should be possible. Using LexisNexis may be a good idea for finding reviews in news papers and magazines. Something along the lines of Final Fantasy V#Reception and legacy would be good.
    • The Merchandise section is only one sentence. Either expand the section or merge it into reception as Legacy.
    • If the reception section gets changed to Reception and legacy, consider merging the Sequel section as well as it's only a paragraph of information.
    • There are some unreliable sources used as refs. Examples: Siliconera.com, Chudah's Corner, FFCompendium, and Final Fantasy Neoseeker. These refs need to bee replaced by reliable sources. Also, the last two refs aren't formatted properly as they lack publisher and accessdate information.

    As it stands now, I think the article fails the FA requirements and needs substantial work to amend the issues I've listed. The Prince (talk) 12:47, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

    Siliconera is owned by Crave Online, so it should be fine as a source. The others though are another story.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
    I've stricken Siliconera. The Prince (talk) 13:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
    Regarding the unreliable sources, I changed the publisher in Chudah's Corner to Square, which originally published the liner notes in the soundtrack (which is the real object being cited), and left the url to Chudah's Corner as a convenience translation (which is acceptable in WP:VG, since as in this case, a lot of good information is in Japanese, and readers enjoy being able to read a translation at leisure). The things FFCompendium and Neoseeker are citing seem like they could stand without references, so someone can remove those. ZeaLitY 17:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
    Formatted those last 2 refs. --PresN 19:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment Agree with the above comments by Prince. Examples:
    • The "Plot" section, with its three subsections (Setting, Characters, Story) is way too long and mind-numbingly complex for the general reader who may not be familiar with it. Needs to be more succinct.
    • The "Development" section, normally one of the most crucial in game article, is extremely sparse and does not set the stage. The reader learns nothing about the people behind the games development, or the process, relationship to other games, etc. (other than the info regarding the audio).
    • The "Versions and re-releases" section is very long and detailed; it overwhelms the rest of the article.
    • "Merchandise" should be removed or added to, as it has and {{expand}} tag.
    • Just curious what this means: one of the sources says, " All in all, Final Fantasy IV is a solid and ground-breaking RPG, which also brought about the end of an era in gaming." What end of an era did it bring about? Perhaps more is needed as to the game's place in game history. —mattisse (Talk) 16:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, focus, structure, balance. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 07:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:40, 11 September 2009 .

    Norman Borlaug

    Review commentary

    Notified: Brian0918 PDH, WikiProject Brazil, Noticeboard for India-related topics, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Plants, WikiProject Texas

    A 2005 promotion, there are the usual 1c (not enough inline citations) issues. Parts of the article don't flow well (especially the "Honors and recognition" section, which has a lot of proseline). I suspect that a few of the external links listed could be used as a source. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    File:Borlaug Mexico locations.png: missing source. File:BorlaugHarrar1943.jpg, File:BorlaugUSEmbassy.jpg, File:Borlaug July172007.jpg: sources are dead links DrKiernan (talk) 10:12, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    Here are a couple of recent sources I suggest looking at:
    No doubt there are others. Eubulides (talk) 04:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks for that. I'll start working on this article after I finish up with George F. Kennan. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 00:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
    Yes, I've taken this into account YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 05:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by Marskell 23:19, 4 September 2009 .

    History of New Jersey

    Review commentary

    Notified: all listed WikiProjects. Author has no edits for a year.

    As with many old FAs, this has a lot of unsourced content and fails (1c). Aside from the wide swathes of paragraphs that are unaccounted for, there is also a problem with the quality of many sources. "OurStory" is not in my opinion reliable, and there are other amateur or hobby sites used when the events described seem notable enough to find references in more scholarly texts.

    More importantly however, this article is not written with the big picture in mind to show the historical evolution of NJ but is more a collection of important/big news events, some with little or no impact on the historical development of the state and thus fails the comprehnsiveness/balance criteria

    • Great Depression era is one example.
      • 25% about the depression, and the other three quarters are about the War of the Worlds hoax, which only had an impact for a few days and didn't last because the misconception was rolled back.
      • Another 25% about Lindbergh's son being kidnapped. No wide impact on the state. There are hundreds maybe thousands of murders, including no doubt some serial killers and massacres.
      • Hindenburg blowing up. Again, tragic, but no lasting impact on the state. There have been many other crashes as well they can't all be included List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_airliners_in_the_United_States#New_Jersey
      • In contrast, there is only about half of this one state politics combined, and most of this is an unsourced BLP violating part about a possibly homosexual governor being corrupt, but again, none are about government policies affecting the state, except that there was a crisis due to there being no deputy' position.
    • Ditto for last 35 years. Only 9/11, Ellis Park transfer and the governor resigning are mentioned, without any way of the bigger picture of things like maybe? industrial decline, changing demographics, those sorts of things.
    • Ditto for things like a US/USSR presidential summit being held in NJ and nukes being stored there. The location is not relevant and the results affect every place in both countries equally, nor would they have had a large impact on the economy of the state.

    YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 01:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    • Could this article use tightening? Of course.
    • However, it would be nice if the criticism of content were not mere guesswork.
      • The Lindbergh case had state (and national) coverage for a long time; that's why the Governor gave his personal attention to it. NJ's handling of the case was one of the concerns about the structure of government which led to the Constitution of 1947.
      • We are discussing New Jersey, not Michigan; industrial decline was localized, and largely in the 1960s - not in the last thirty five years. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: I don't know if this is recentism or not, but the indictments of several dozen New Jersey politicians and other figures by the FBI in the past month seems worthy of inclusion in this article. I'm unsure of the treatment required, however. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, comprehensiveness, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 00:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by Marskell 23:19, 4 September 2009 .

    Louisville, Kentucky

    Review commentary

    Notified: User talk:Quadell and all listed Wikiprojects ...

    Article fails more than one criteria:

    Comment. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

    Images Generally, image sizes need not be specified in pixels (see WP:IMGSIZE and MOS:IMAGES). Note Misplaced Pages:Accessibility#Images: images should be placed on the right if coming immediately after a third-order (===) heading.

    Given that there are such a large number of images on the page, I think any image with even a slight problem can be pruned out without loss to the page. DrKiernan (talk) 14:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comments. If others would identify the spots that most need references, I will carve out time to search for them and apply them. I have some books in my library that may supply some of them. Stevie is the man! 16:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

    Many paragraphs have no cites at all. Where is this info accounted from. For the undue weight, there is more on high school football teams than there is on a tornado that apparently flattened most of the town YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 01:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
    Every paragraph is not required to have a cite, as some paragraphs are supported in the linked articles therein. But your point is well-taken. Thank you for your input. Stevie is the man! 03:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
    Other Misplaced Pages articles are not reliable sources, let alone "high-quality" per WP:WIAFA YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 03:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
    To clarify what I was trying to say, if the linked articles in a paragraph already have appropriate supporting references, it's redundant to do it all over again in the linking article. Stevie is the man! 16:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    That said, as soon as somebody identifies specific spots that require cites, I will carve out a bit of time to look through some books. Sorry I can't do more. Time very short! Stevie is the man! 03:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Comments:
    • Decent amount of prose, but as stated above, I question some of the focus of that prose. Forex, there's almost nothing about the riverboat traffic that was the city's main raison d'etre for much of the first half of the 19th century. Conversely, there's a lot about athletics teams. There's also almost no mention of the Lousiville Slugger bat factory in the economy section, while a company that formerly had a headquarters in town gets an entire paragraph.
    • There are minor grammar issues and MOS violations all over the place. I fixed a handful (was hand full in the article :)) of them, but someone needs to go through and give this a thorough MOS check and copy edit.
    • Examples: Metro/metro; city of Louisville/City of Louisville; twelve/12; tense shifts (would meet/met); use of the serial comma; word duplication (also features ... and features)
    • Check numerals for metric conversions where necessary.
    • There's a lot of weasel-wordy sections, particuarly in the recreation sections. In a lot of places, it sounds like something out of a chamber of commerce brochure.
    • But the biggest issue is the complete lack of citations in many sections. I've added fact tags, but I honestly don't think it's going to be possible for someone to fix them all in the time of this FAR. Adding to the problem is that some of the citations are to encyclopedias and other tertiary sources. These should be replaced by secondary sources if possible. I might be pleasantly surprised, though. JKBrooks85 (talk) 06:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    Thank you for adding the fact tags. As you stated, I do believe that it will be next to impossible to fix the article in the expected timeframe. I don't think there are enough active editors around to do it. I used to be active, but I'm too busy to do more than look up a few references here and there. Perhaps the article should be downgraded to Good and be done with it. And then later, it can be resubmitted for Featured status, after the significant period it will take to fix the article. Stevie is the man! 16:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    Note When articles are promoted to FA status, they lose their GA status. As such, when an article loses FA status, it is not automatically downgraded to GA; it has to go through another good article nomination first. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, I would fathom that if the article loses its FA status, it is not of a high enough quality to pass even a GA nomination. :( Otumba (talk) 00:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, comprehensiveness, undue weight, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Médecins Sans Frontières

    Review commentary

    Notified: WP Africa, WP France, WP Medicine, WP Spain, WP Organizations. Quadell, Xenophrenic

    I am nominating this featured article for review because it appears to have degenerated and/or not kept up with our evolving standards. The lead looks odd and includes a rudimentary table of founders not included in the article proper. Citations are inconsistently formatted and occasionally appear incomplete, and some paragraphs lack any citations. Overall, a rather large percentage of citations appear to be to primary sources (i.e., MSF publications). Thus, I question whether the article, as it stands now, is really within reasonable distance of 1c and 2a, while having concerns that 2b, 2c and possibly 1a are lacking. Apologies if this nomination is lacking, this is my first FAR. Jclemens (talk) 05:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

    I removed the bullets, but probably the names of the founders do not need to be in the lead. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, comprehensiveness, reliable sources (bias?), citations, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 01:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Franklin B. Gowen

    Review commentary

    Notified: User talk:Slambo, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Trains, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Philadelphia, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pennsylvania.

    FA from 2005, 1c issues throughout article. WP:LEAD has a bit of an unorthodox style format with bullet points, and is larger than the requisite amount of paragraphs. Image File:Franklin B. Gowen.jpg lacks sufficient source information on the image page, same goes for File:James McParland.jpg, and the page for File:Uriah-stephens-circa-1900.gif could use some improvement as well. Cirt (talk) 18:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

    • Comment This article has had one edit since it was nominated on August 2.
    • Need for alt text has not been addressed.
    • None of the {{citation needed}} tags for the uncited quotes and unsourced material have been addressed nor has the bullet list and other problems in the lead.
    • I do not understand the reference system. For example, there are citations like Schlegel, 222–22, Daggett, pp. 100–101, Wallace, p. 435, Wallace, p. 435 etc. but there is no bibliography listing books by these authors. Therefore, I'm not sure what these are in reference to.
    • Most of the article is made up of very short paragraphs, making for choppy reading, and lacks flow.
    • Some of the prose needs work. Random examples:
    • In collaboration with his close friend, George deBenneville Keim—who had bought Gowen's Pottsville home in 1864, and was subsequently appointed first president of the Coal & Iron Co.—Gowen's perhaps most crucial business bet was made upon these lands: development of the Pottsville Twin Shaft Colliery.
    • From that time, through fresh sanguine predictions for improvements in the business climate and the Reading's overall performance, which allowed him to borrow more funds on a less grand scale and to get the McCalmonts to defer interest payments due; and maneuverings such as periodically paying workers in scrip—essentially promissory notes—instead of cash, Franklin Gowen continued to run the Reading.
    • As noted above, in the 1871 legislative investigation of coal field agitations and the Reading Railroad, Gowen portrayed the WBA as having at its core a murderous, secret association. In his 1875 testimony before another investigative committee, he characterized this same core of the union as "Communists." (The citation is: Schlegel, p. 84. See Misplaced Pages articles on the Paris Commune and International Workingmen's Association to better understand the contemporary connotations of this charge.)
    • For instance, the shot to the head from which Gowen died was from an angle very unlikely to have been self-inflicted, ...

    —mattisse (Talk) 22:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, lead, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ?
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Sequence alignment

    Review commentary

    Notified: Opabinia regalis, WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology

    I am nominating this featured article for review because of 1c concerns. The article has been edited extensively since it passed FAC in July 2006 and there are whole sections that are unreferenced. It has been tagged for {{Refimprove|date=March 2009}} —Mattisse (Talk) 00:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

    • The lead is only two sentences on a complex subject, violating WP:LEAD.
    • The lack of citations suggest the much of the article may be original research. For example, this uncited section:

    Very short or very similar sequences can be aligned by hand. However, most interesting problems require the alignment of lengthy, highly variable or extremely numerous sequences that cannot be aligned solely by human effort. Instead, human knowledge is applied in constructing algorithms to produce high-quality sequence alignments, and occasionally in adjusting the final results to reflect patterns that are difficult to represent algorithmically (especially in the case of nucleotide sequences). Computational approaches to sequence alignment generally fall into two categories: global alignments and local alignments. Calculating a global alignment is a form of global optimization that "forces" the alignment to span the entire length of all query sequences. By contrast, local alignments identify regions of similarity within long sequences that are often widely divergent overall. Local alignments are often preferable, but can be more difficult to calculate because of the additional challenge of identifying the regions of similarity. A variety of computational algorithms have been applied to the sequence alignment problem, including slow but formally optimizing methods like dynamic programming, and efficient, but not as thorough heuristic algorithms or probabilistic methods designed for large-scale database search.

    —Mattisse (Talk) 18:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

    Hmm. I haven't decided yet whether I'm going to have the time to update this article, but I'm really glad to see that alt text has been implemented. Still, I'm at a loss as to how to write useful alt text for a sequence alignment... I mean, it already is text; the trick is in the formatting. Since you seem to be the alt-text expert, do you have any suggestions? Perhaps at least one alignment can be presented as text in table format rather than as an image? I think that would help text-based browser users, but I'm not sure about screen readers. Thoughts? Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    You're right to be cautious about screen readers: they do tables, but sometimes it's easier to summarize the gist of a table in text rather than to list each row and column separately. However, for the two sequence-alignment images here I expect that tables would be better. Even for a sighted reader a table can be better, e.g., you can copy and paste from it. Eubulides (talk) 20:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • General comment I agree that this article is in need of an update, though I'm not sure yet that I'm going to have the time to do it. "Citing" it is a bit of a red herring; references to a bioinformatics textbook would technically be appropriate, although I'd rather also include the references to the original descriptions of the older methods (even if the 'standard' current implementation has been modified from the original). For one thing, the prose has degraded (not that mine was brilliant to begin with). And three years is a long time; there are new methods that belong here (relatedness-aware MSA methods should certainly be included) and dead links to prune (the software subarticle looks like the lawn of a home in foreclosure). Lastly, it's suffering from the bias of its author in that most of the examples derive from protein rather than nucleic acid sequences, and there's very little on methods used in genomics. (As a side note, I'm really surprised to find things like PSI-BLAST not even mentioned by name.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    Sorry, it's not looking good for finding the time to fully update this; I'm in the middle of revisions for a real paper. Sounds like the best way to show an alignment is either a table or a preformatted text box, although I'd like to keep at least one image showing a large MSA (perhaps not the current one, which is a screenshot from software that was rather old 3 years ago). I'll try to at least update the images and insert the original refs for the methods next week, though that won't help with the dated text. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:17, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 01:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Yuan (surname)

    Review commentary

    Notified: WikiProject China

    This article is definitely close to FA, but it needs some cleaning up.

    • The entire article needs way more inline citations. Even if they're all coming from the same source. There's plenty of bombastic language that needs backing up.
    • The citation style is messy, and includes "Ibid." and so on.
    • Someone ought to review these sources, since they're all in Chinese and there's no way to tell what's a reliable source (is Zhonghua shu ju a "well-regarded academic press"?). This doesn't look like a reliable source but it could be, I would have no way of knowing.
    • The lead image claims to be "circa 2nd century" but the description page says it's self-made, which is it? The stele image doesn't have a source.
    • The "prominent personages" list includes people without articles, are they notable?
    • The prose is good and meets MOS but is it brilliant? Noisalt (talk) 01:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    I fixed the problem of redlinks in the "Prominent Personages" list by creating an article on one of the people, who is definitely notable, and deleting the other two, on whom I could find little.--Danaman5 (talk) 05:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    Clarified caption of lead image.--Danaman5 (talk) 16:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

    Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 03:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    Alt text added. As before, your corrections are welcome.--Danaman5 (talk) 16:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks. My own feeling is that when an image focuses on text, that text should appear in alt text even when the text is not English. File:Yuan character (1st century).png is a Chinese character, so its alt text should contain the text equivalent of that character; since that image is particularly about visual appearance of a character, it should briefly describe the gist of the character's appearance to an English-language reader (something like "a character with ten strokes: a stick figure of a man above a circle..."); the color is not that important here since it's arbitrary editorial choice. The alt text for File:Yuanshi Zongpu.jpg should contain the text for the Chinese characters in the image (no English translation, obviously; that's in the caption; also there's no need here to describe the characters in detail). Similarly the Chinese text of the stele should be added to the stele's alt text, since the text is quite legible. One image still lacks alt text; this comes from the protected {{Surname}} template and I just now asked to get this fixed. Eubulides (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
    I just now struck the items that have been fixed, but the other problems still remain. Eubulides (talk) 12:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

    Fair use rationale needed for File:Yuanshi Zongpu.jpg. DrKiernan (talk) 09:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, prose, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 00:37, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Baby Gender Mentor

    Review commentary

    Notified: Johntex, ... WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology, ...Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine

    I am nominating this featured article for review primarily because of 1c concerns. It was promoted to FAC in January 2007

    • There are many dead links, and links that go to irrelevant pages that do not contain the information cited.
    • Many of the references go to pages that are marketing or selling the product, pages of the developer of the product or blogs. They are not unbiased and neutral.
    • There have been long-standing tags on the article requesting citations.
    • Although the article is covered by the WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology, there are almost not references that fulfill the requirement of WP:MEDRS. Rather, the references seem to reinforce that this article is about this product for which it appears there is little scientific evidence that it is reliable or works as advertised.

    There are also 1d concerns; for example, there are some promotion quotes included in the article from those that are selling it, but none from the scientific community giving an unbiased view.

    Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 22:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comment. Done; thanks. The two images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 05:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

    Reply from original FA nominator - Hello, I am the author that worked this article through the original FA and I will try to address the remarks above.

    1. "There are many dead links, and links that go to irrelevant pages that do not contain the information cited." - Please cite specific examples and I will address them. All of the links went to relevant information at the time of FA listing. Please note that Misplaced Pages does NOT require the removal of a link just because it is not working at a given point in time. Websites sometimes go offline or get restructured; sometimes this is only temporary. The link may come back to life and it may not. Even if it is dead, it may still be a useful guide to a reader who is trying to find this informaiton.
    2. "Many of the references go to pages that are marketing or selling the product, pages of the developer of the product or blogs. They are not unbiased and neutral." - "Many" is a weasel word, according the WP:MOS. Yes, "many" of the links give the manufacturers viewpoint. That is entirely appropriate for presenting their side of the story. "Many" of the links go to other sources. There is no problem with having "many" links to the manufacturer of the product. The overall tone of the article is certainly not an advertisement, nor is it biased in favor of the manufacturer. Therefore, the links are not a problem.
    3. "There have been long-standing tags on the article requesting citations." - I checked a version from 2 weeks ago. As of that point in time, there were no major tags on the article. As of 2 weeks ago there were 2 references that someone wanted verification on because the cited sources are apparently not currently on-line. Again, there is no requirement that every source be available online. We cite plenty of out-of-print-books, magazine articles that have never appeared online, etc. I'd prefer to see each source accompanied by a live link, but that is not an absolute requirement.
    4. I'll examine this statement in two parts
      1. "Although the article is covered by the WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology, there are almost not references that fulfill the requirement of WP:MEDRS...." - this has nothing to do with whether the article if FA or not. Any wikiproject can come along and find a thin connection to an article and slap their talk-page tag on it. I've seen articles with 10 wikiproject tags on it!! That doesn't mean that article must meet the requirements of those projects to be FA. WikiProjects don't control FA.
      2. "Rather, the references seem to reinforce that this article is about this product for which it appears there is little scientific evidence that it is reliable or works as advertised." - yes, exactly. The available scientific evidence seems to say that this test does not work and may even be fraudulent. That is reflected 100% in this article, which is how it should be.
    5. "There are also 1d concerns; for example, there are some promotion quotes included in the article from those that are selling it, but none from the scientific community giving an unbiased view." - again, on the whole I think the article is very fair. Any educated reader who read this article would come away with the idea that the product is no good and possibly fraudulent. I don't see any bias in favor of the manufacturer at all.
    6. The two images need alt text as per WP:ALT. - I am not familiar with WP:ALT. I will read up on it and come back to reply and/or fix that issue.

    Best, Johntex\ 00:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    Update: I have now added Alt text for the two images. Johntex\ 02:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    • All the dead links are tagged on the article; the tags were removed by a revert. Please do not revert the tags if you want to know what the problems with the article references are. All the links that do not give the information purported are tagged on the article; again you reverted the tags. Please do not remove the tags without fixing. The tags are there to inform you of what needs fixing. I stand by my opinion that the article appears to promote the product and there are not balancing views from the scientific community. It has a banner on the talk page that it belongs to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Medicine (recently added) and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology, therefore it should follow WP:MEDRS for reference citations. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 00:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    This is the version of the article that tags the dead links and those that do not provide the information cited. Please use this version to address the link issues I have raised. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    Great, thanks. I can refer to that version; no need to have all the tags in the live version. Johntex\ 02:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    Also, if you look at Talk:Baby Gender Mentor, you will see that my concerns have been voiced there repeatedly over the years by other editors. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 01:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    I don't think this is an accurate reflection of the discussion on that page. If you look at the time stamps, you will see that discussion occurred over a period of about 5 days. This was one incident; it is not like people have repeatedly voiced any concern "over the years".
    What happened was this: When the article was selected to be the Main Page FA, there were some people who were worried that having ANY product featured on the Main Page was akin to serving as an advertisement for that product.
    If you will please re-read the discussion, you will see that other people joined in the discussion on the other side: saying that Misplaced Pages has articles on many things, and that includes products. Any of those articles can make it to the main page. You will also see people saying that they don't see how this can be interpreted as any kind of advertisement. Johntex\ 02:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    But this is a product that appears to be unreliable and possibly a scam. Also, most of the references go to either product pages, or to sites that sell the product. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Note to FAR reviewers: Please consider this version in evaluating the article, as the nominator has again reverted the tagging of dead links and inaccurate links, so that the problems are not evident in the "live" version. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    To Johntex: it was unhelpful of you to remove the dead link/verification needed tags from the (live) article. This is a wiki where many users collaborate to improve the content. If you leave the tags in place, other editors (including myself) would find it easier to find and correct the highlighted problems. Axl ¤ 19:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

    • I've never thought this was a particularly brilliant article -- good, and maybe good enough, but with odd flaws. For example, ref is to Pamela Prindle Fierro. "Vanishing Twin Syndrome". About.com. Why the heck are we citing About.com for the percentage of pregnancies that involve vanishing twins? Can't we cite proper papers or medical textbooks? Or is this statistic so generally rejected that we have to stoop to what is essentially a self-published source? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Note It is very unfortunate that the editor is working on the version of the page that reverted the links marked {{deadlink}} and links marked {{Failed verification}} and {{rs}}. These included many named references that were repeatedly cited. The editor should agree to check the this version before declaring that these link problems have been rectified. Altogether, approximately 40 citations fell into these categories. Many links are to unreliable or irrelevant sources. I don't understand all the links to the "vanishing twin" issue. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 19:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Sample of dead or dysfunctional or misleading links:
    • Many sources are unreliable or have very limited reliability, and some are used repeatedly. Examples:
    • Some sources are irrelevant:

    —Mattisse (Talk) 00:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Delist per above concerns (many, many "" and "" links; editor reverted the tags without fixing problems); too many links to commercial sites; concerns about source quality). I don't understand the many reference citations to the "vanishing twin" issue, at least three to PMID articles. What is the relevance to the apparently fraudulant Baby Gender Mentor? Seems at best like WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: Not sure it looks too bad at first glance - is work still being done actively on this? Cirt (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment. I have gone through the article once again and marked the many, many {{deadlink}} and {{failed verification}} tags. Before when I did this, the tags were reverted without the article being fixed. I don't think anyone but me has really checked the article out and looked at the citations. I am at a loss how this article ever passed FAC to begin with. It has a lot of seemingly relevant (but actually irrelevant to the topic) information to give it a clothing of respectability, like so many links on the "vanishing twin" stuff. Basically, this is an article about a fraudulent product. Please check that the numerous faulty links (which I have checked individually) are actually fixed and not just reverted without fixing. Also, there are links to blogs and old {{verification needed}} tags in the article. Many links are to the company sites and to press releases. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Delist per Matisse's comments. A lot of tags need to be repaired, but I think it can be done. JKBrooks85 (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Douglas Adams

    Review commentary

    Notified: JohnDBuell, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject BBC, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Atheism, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Monty Python, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Doctor Who, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Comedy, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject London

    1c) Undercited - in my opinion, there are facts that need citations. I am listing only a few examples. There are many throughout the article:

    • "A version of the revue performed live in London's West End led to Adams being discovered by Monty Python's Graham Chapman."
    • "He had been wandering the countryside while carrying a book called the Hitch-hiker's Guide to Europe when he ran into a town where, as he humorously describes, everyone was either "deaf" and "dumb" or only spoke languages he could not understand. After wandering around and drinking for a while, he went to sleep in the middle of a field and was inspired by his inability to communicate with the townspeople. He later said that due to his constantly retelling this story of inspiration, he no longer had any memory of the moment of inspiration itself, and only remembered his retellings of that moment."
    • "A postscript to M. J. Simpson's biography of Adams, Hitchhiker: A Biography of Douglas Adams, provides evidence that the story was in fact a fabrication and that Adams had conceived the idea some time after his trip around Europe."
    • "This was an entirely original work, Adams' first since So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish. Reviewers, however, were not as generous with praise for the second volume as they had been for the first. After the obligatory book tours, Adams was off on his round-the-world excursion which supplied him with the material for Last Chance to See."

    1c) There are uncited quotations. Here is one example:

    • "After graduation he spent several years contributing material to radio and television shows as well as writing, performing, and sometimes directing stage revues in London, Cambridge and at the Edinburgh Fringe. He has also worked at various times as a hospital porter, barn builder, chicken shed cleaner, bodyguard, radio producer and script editor of Doctor Who."

    3) File:DNA in Monty Python.jpg - I am unconvinced by the need for this non-free image. I agree it is cool, but I'm not sure it meets WP:NFCC #8.

    1a, 1b, and 2b) Comprehensiveness and structure:

    • The sections on Adams' writings do not explain what they are about, their themes, or his writing style. I would cut some of the details about production of Hitchiker's, for example, and describe the series/books themselves.
    • The "Doctor Who" section is poorly organized. Much of it seems to be an assortment of trivia rather than an explanation of precisely what Adams' involvement was with Doctor Who. There are several very short paragraphs that reveal this.
    • The "Music" section seems to be given a lot of space in the article when it is actually just a collection of rather random facts. Much of the information seems relevant to the articles on Hitchiker rather than this article (it explains allusions, for example). I would suggest removing much of this material.
    • I'm wondering if the "Computer games and projects" section should be integrated into the biography proper. Right now it is a prose list. If it were integrated into the biography, it would help the reader understand when particular events happened in Adams' life.
    • I would suggest integrating the "Personal life" section into the biography proper. Too much of Adams' life is fragmented in the article right now to properly understand it.
    • I do not think that the "Biographies" section is necessary, as these are sources that the article should use.
    • I'm wondering if the "Tributes and honorifics" section should be deleted. It seems as if this is WP:TRIVIA.

    1c) Sourcing: I checked the MLA database and there are scholarly articles by literary critics on Adams and his works that should be a part of any biography on him. None of those are used as sources in this article, therefore it is not "well-researched" and does not represent a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic".

    I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 16:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comment. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 17:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comment. The signature in the image is legible, so it doesn't illustrate illegibility. The image does not illustrate the point being made. DrKiernan (talk) 09:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comment. Links 27 and 40 are dead.--andreasegde (talk) 14:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

    Comment. Agree with Awadewit's observations. This article has ballooned up from 62 kB when it was passed as FA to 213 kB now. I believe it needs to be reorganized, cleaned of cruft, the prose polished, and facts and quotes need to be properly cited. There are unreliable sources like a yahoo user group. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, reliable sources, comprehensiveness, quality of research, structure alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
    The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

    The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 00:47, 1 September 2009 .

    Stanisław Koniecpolski

    Review commentary

    Notified WikiProject Poland, WikiProject Military History, WikiProject Biography and Piotrus.

    This article currently fails FA criterion 1c, since there entire paragraphs/sections without citations. In addition, the article almost entirely relies on one source. I'm not sure if other sources are available, but I would appreciate it if some more attention could be paid towards identifying potential sources that might detail notable information not found in Podhorodecki (1978). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

    I don't have the books here, but on the bright side, anybody with access to Podhorecki biography of him should be able to reference this article easily. This book, which I used when writing the article,is as far as I know is the major work dedicated to him, and hence, practically the obligatory source for the article (any other works are either less comprehensive or very specialized one one aspect/era of his life). On the down side, without access to this book one will not be able to finish referencing this article. Few months ago I started adding inline citations, but didn't finish (as can be cleary seen from refs :D). I'll have access to my copy in Poland again in December. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
    I've started adding refs from what I can get from online sources but unfortunately I don't have access to Podhorodecki. I think the more general stuff can be reffed with online sources but some of the details will need the more specific book. I think most of the reffing can be done in the next few weeks - how much time do we have here?radek (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

    FARC commentary

    Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 02:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
    Hold on. It's summer - activity is bound to be sporadic. A good bit of citing has already been done but then I had to take ten days off for real life reasons. I can now resume work on this.radek (talk) 10:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks!radek (talk) 23:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    Also it would be helpful if someone could fact tag all the text that needs to be referenced. In several cases multiple sentences can be sourced to the same ref but I'm not sure if I need to inline after every comma (if one's familiar with the person one might miss a need for a ref). This would make the work easier and direct my efforts to where they need to go.radek (talk) 23:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
    • To try to help out a bit, I added a toolbox to the upper right corner of this review page. For example, you can visit its "alt text" tool to find out the alt text problems I mentioned above. Eubulides (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Delist The article is riddled with citation tags and the alt text has not been added. There are also prose concerns (random examples):
    • Stanisław Koniecpolski lived a life that involved almost constant warfare, and during his military career he won many victories.
    • With inferior forces fought the Swedish forces of Gustavus Adolphus to a stalemate in Prussia.
    • In 1615 and 1616, Koniecpolski gained experience in Ukraine fighting against Tatar hordes, but he failed to break or capture any sizable enemy units.
    • Soon afterward, Koniecpolski was defeated by the Tatars near Oryn, where he made a mistake of charging in front of his army against overwhelming odds and consequently barely made it out of the battle alive.
    • They returned to Poland in spring 1623 during the aftermath of the Ottoman defeat at Khotyn and the stabilization of Polish-Ottoman relations that was helped by the diplomatic mission of Krzysztof Zbaraski which bought the freedom of captives for 30,000 talars.
    • He also repelled a counterattack by Swedish raitars, who were pushed in the direction of Pułkowice, where another counterattack was led by Gustavus Adolphus with 2,000 raitars. This counterattack was also stopped, and the Swedish forces were saved by the last reserve units led by field marshal Herman Wrangel, who managed to stop the Polish attack.

    —mattisse (Talk) 19:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.