Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:50, 14 October 2009

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kosovo article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34Auto-archiving period: 14 days

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

In accordance with sanctions authorised for this article: All editors on this article are subject to 1RR per day and are required to discuss any content reversions on the article talk page. For full details, see (subsequently modified by ).

Useful information for this article Discussions on this page may escalate into heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. See also: Misplaced Pages:Etiquette. This is not a forum for general discussion of Kosovo, or whether it is a 'country', 'state' or 'province'. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Kosovo at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Misplaced Pages policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. The opening paragraph to the article was decided upon, by consensus, following lengthy discussions. It is based on reliable sources, providing a neutral point of view. The first sentence, in particular, must call Kosovo a "country", reflecting the consensus found in the RfC held in the spring of 2023. This article is written in British English, which differs from American English in some ways. See American and British English differences. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. Kosovo received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Countries Countries portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CountriesWikipedia:WikiProject CountriesTemplate:WikiProject Countriescountry WikiProject Countries to-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Check out the article alerts; see if anything catches your fancy. Cleanup : clean-up listing for Countries Stubs : de-stub articles in Category:Stubs by region. Other : add {{WPCountries}} to talk pages of related articles, and assess. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Kosovo Top‑importance Kosovo is part of WikiProject Kosovo, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Kosovo on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.KosovoWikipedia:WikiProject KosovoTemplate:WikiProject KosovoKosovo Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Serbia Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Europe High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Europe, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to European topics of a cross-border nature on Misplaced Pages.EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject EuropeTemplate:WikiProject EuropeEurope High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:V0.5

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34

Former article talkpages (archived) Talk:Kosovo/ Republic of Kosovo Kosovo (geopolitical region)

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Infobox dispute

Abkhazia not Republic of Abkhazia has an infobox of a republic on top. Abkhazia is recognized by less countries than Kosovo (so in a way it is more disputed than Kosovo), furthermore it is not recognized by mos Western countries (unlike Kosovo). What you are doing is clearly pushing POV. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. We should have only one infobox. Kosovo is governed by the Republic of Kosovo that redirects to the region with the exception of some enclaves that represent just a little minority. There should be only one infobox (for the Republic of Kosovo, because it makes no sense to have three infoboxes). As it is, it's plain ugly. So Cinema C is NOT right. By the way, why should 10 people try to convince 1 or 2 just to make a change? First that person says that "Misplaced Pages is not a forum" so that everyone has to shut up. Then he says it's "not a democracy" because we're taking votes, and at the end he'll make his own changes reminding that in Misplaced Pages you have to "be bold". Do I also have to be a Serbian so that I can make a change without being banned? Are the russians making the rules in Misplaced Pages, just like they make them in Google because of Google's owner? You might know that Kosovo is not represented as a country in Google, even though the United States, country where Google is incorporated, recognizes Kosovo as a country. I'm seeing the same thing in Misplaced Pages, even though Google didn't purchase it. Yet. sulmues (talk-- 13:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

We are trying to discuss a really important POV issue. Your sarcasm and trolling is not helping at all. "...Misplaced Pages is not an organisation along the lines of NATO or the IMF...". That might be true, but it is not along the lines of Russia and Arab countries (most of which, BTW, have not recognized Kosovo) either. Why aren't you suggesting to remove the infobox of, let's say Abkhazia, if you are such a righteous Wikipedian? —Anna Comnena (talk) 17:38, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

All right take it easy. I've deleted my last remark because for the very first time in the four years I have edited, I posted a message which was not meant to be serious. It was a joke to wind the masses up - something I enjoy doing. That is not the same as vandalism because another user could have easily made the suggestion for real. It was based on Sulmues's claim on three infoboxes being superfluous; I jokingly said "let's drop the one implying statehood". To that end, I have never claimed to be or tried to look like a "righteous" editor. On a serious note, I maintain that it is not the policy of Misplaced Pages to recognise entities. Misplaced Pages does not recognise France, the Dominican Republic or El Salvador. It is an encyclopaedia which has articles on them. It may refer to these as countries whilst not Kosovo or South Ossetia but there are reasons for this and nobody can pretend that Kosovo's level of status - whilst being ahead of Abkhazia - is equal to that of Namibia or Iceland. I don't wish to lose site of the discussion. The focus was not on whether to amend "disputed territory" with "country", but whether to elevate the infobox containing national symbols to the top of the page. There is no real problem with it, but just do not take liberties and pretend that the Belgrade angle on this is redundant. "Kosovo is a country - it is like Switzerland because it is landlocked - it is like Albania because of the language - it is like Portugal because they use the Euro - it is like the USA because it's got American soldiers in it - it is like Morocco because it is Muslim - it is like Slovenia because it broke away from Yugoslavia - it is like Greece because it was once Ottoman - it is like Cypurs because it has a flag baring its outline - it is like Italy because it is a republic - it is like Bangladesh because it has its own anthem" - and so on. Don't lose yourselves in the "country" cloud just because you are promoting the flag/COA. Evlekis (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is rather ironic that Misplaced Pages's recognition is as important as another country's. (I know this discussion was not about that). However it is a fact, that in a way Misplaced Pages recognizes Abkhazia and not Kosovo. You can say all day "...it is not the policy of Misplaced Pages to recognise entities..." when actually, in the case of Kosovo we see that it is not so. BTW, according to Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines#Own_comments it is not polite to delete your own comments without discussing first. —Anna Comnena (talk) 18:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing to discuss. The comments were not meant to be serious. Restore them if you so wish. Again you and the other pro-Kosovo independence users are getting carried away with your own insecurity - sceptical of any single institution which casts the slightest doubt upon the statehood of Kosovo. This is an encyclopaedia, not an intergovernmental organisation; Misplaced Pages does not recognise Abkhazia, Kosovo or even Canada. There is no Wikipedian ambassador to Israel, or Misplaced Pages consulate in Cairo. And I fail to see what is so different regarding Abkhazia, the article clearly states "disputed territory". Evlekis (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

From the article of Abkhazia:

Abkhazia (Abkhaz: Аҧсны Apsny, Georgian: აფხაზეთი Apkhazeti, Russian: Абха́зия Abkhazia) is a newly created independent Republic (whose status is currently disputed by its neighbor, Georgia) on the eastern coast of the Black Sea. Since its declaration of independence from Georgia in 1991 during the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, it is governed by the partially-recognized Republic of Abkhazia.

And from the artcile of Kosovo:

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosova, Kosovë; Serbian: Косово or Косово и Метохија, Kosovo or Kosovo i Metohija) is a disputed territory in the Balkans. Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo (Albanian: Republika e Kosovës; Serbian: Република Косово, Republika Kosovo), a self-declared independent state which has de facto control over the territory; the exceptions are some Serb enclaves. Serbia does not recognise the secession of Kosovo and considers it a United Nations-governed entity within its sovereign territory, the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (Serbian: Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија, Autonomna Pokrajina Kosovo i Metohija), according to the Constitution of Serbia (2006).

As you can see, it doesn't quiet clearly state "disputed territory". For comparision, I gave you as an example the intro of Kosovo, and maybe you get the idea of "what is so different regarding Abkhazia". kedadial 09:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue is quiet simple: If the article of Abkhazia (note: Abkhazia not Republic of Abkhazia) has a country infobox (also only one infobox) which is recognized by only 3 countries, why can't the article of Kosovo follow the same pattern?

Now, let's be frank, Kosovo is recognized by 62 countries and some important international organizations (in contrast with Abkhazia and South Ossetia which are recognized by only 3 countries), so is it fair to treat the article of Kosovo as a special (oops, I meant unprivileged and discriminated) case? <sarcasm>Maybe Hashim Thaçi should beg 59 countries to cancel their recognitions in order for wikipedia to treat the article of Kosovo as the one of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.</sarcasm>

Honestly, I believe that wikipedia is not the place for double standards. Thank you. kedadial 20:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The article already contains the information everyone has been screaming about these past days - the COA/flag infobox. So what now is the outrage? Do we wish to rearrange the boxes to place Republic of Kosovo on top? Are we campaigning to have the other infoboxes removed? Or is this a salvation attempt to keep alive the Republic of Kosovo infobox because somebody suggested delete it? Evlekis (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's make it plain simple. We want to make the article use only one infobox and that has to be the country box. And what we are requesting is a sync with the structure of these two other articles: Abkhazia and South Ossetia. kedadial 09:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, Misplaced Pages is not the place for sarcasm, so please be civil. All the arguments concerning why every case is unique (as Hashim Thaçi and his supporters often state) are listed above. Thanks, --Cinéma C 00:30, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

"...as Hashim Thaçi and his supporters often state..." this is sarcasm. Whenever you cannot deal with an issue you try to de-construct it through sarcasm. If you cannot answer the question that we made 8 times until now, please do not reply in this section. Why Abkhazia has its own 'republic infobox' and Kosovo doesn't? —Anna Comnena (talk) 08:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No, that's not sarcasm, Thaçi and his supporters really do state that Kosovo is a unique case. No sarcasm whatsoever. And I have already answered the question - the Abkhazia article is an article about the self-declared republic of Abkhazia, while this is an article about the territory of Kosovo. If you'd like to take out all the text concerning the "republic of Kosovo", create a separate Republic of Kosovo article (but discuss it first) and put the RofK infobox on top. If you look at the Serbia article, Kosovo is a lighter color than the rest of Serbia, while Georgia doesn't have these shades as the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are already covered in that article. This is not the case with Kosovo, as almost all of Serbia's statistics and information don't include Kosovo. --Cinéma C 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

More on infobox issue

The answer to all of these problems is simple and has been mentioned many times: SPLIT THE ARTICLE. Have one article that covers the history of the area ending with a statement that "the region of Kosovo is currently disputed between Serbia (Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija) and the Republic of Kosovo. Links in each name would then take you to the appropriate article. Everyone complains that the Kosovo supporters are trying to make this article into the Republic of Kosovo article and the Serbia supporters are trying to make it into the AP Kosovo and Metohija article. However, the instant anyone suggests having separate articles covering the separate ideas, everyone starts screaming that these are the same thing and should be kept in the same article. They AREN'T the same thing, they are 3 different things. There is a piece of land called Kosovo (Thing 1), there is an internationally recognized province of Serbia existing on that land (Thing 2) and there is an internationally recognized independent state existing on that land (Thing 3). These 3 things each deserve articles, but they are all shoehorned into this one article. Therefor this article fails at being about at least two of them. Khajidha (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive approach. But this time we are only trying to solve the problem with the infobox. Your idea of splitting was discussed earlier, however if you want to re-actualize it, you are encouraged to start a new section. Thank you! —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I am just wondering, why does not anyone suggest modifying the infobox at Abkhazia article, since there are the same POV issues there? Why is everyone just using the argument "if there so, why not here"? Just to remind you of this option... --Tone 14:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually if you would see the discussion page on Talk:Abkhazia there are such suggestions. —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I personally think that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are just fine: and to me they are already partially recognized countries. You don't need to be recognized by the UN to be a country. The problem is with Kosovo that has 3 infoboxes to please somebody and it is making an ugly article to watch. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 15:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)15:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The article "looking ugly" is not a valid argument for making the article one-sided. --Cinéma C 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a very valid argument. If an article doesn't follow Misplaced Pages standards, it looks ugly. For Kosovo we are not following best practices. I'm not trying to make the article one-sided, I'm just trying to standardize it. Try to understand that and do not make useless accusations.sulmues (talk)

"Looking ugly" and "not following Misplaced Pages standards" are two different things. There is one standard no one here can ignore and that is the NPOV standard. It would be inaccurate to make the Kosovo article look like the article about any other self-declared Republic on Misplaced Pages, as this is not an article about the self-declared republic of Kosovo (although a part of the article does concern that), but rather about the territory of Kosovo which is claimed by both Pristina and Belgrade. Instead of comparing Kosovo with Abkhazia / South Ossetia, it is much more accurate to compare Kosovo with Ossetia (a region whose North is a part of Russia, the rest claimed by both Tskhinvali and Tbilisi) or Macedonia (region). If there is such a strong determination to have the RofK infobox on top, I might support the creation of a Republic of Kosovo article (and the Province of Kosovo in that case as well) and each side would edit articles that reflect Pristina government activities and Belgrade government / UN administration activities in Kosovo, but never making it look like either territorial claims are widely accepted. If we look at the Serbia article, Kosovo is a lighter color than the rest of Serbia, while Georgia doesn't have these shades as the territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are already covered in that article. This is not the case with Kosovo, as almost all of Serbia's statistics and information don't include Kosovo. Therefore, it may seem like the Kosovo article is comparable to the Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles, but that's simply not how Kosovo is covered on Misplaced Pages and it would be incredibly one sided to put that infobox on top. Provided that we have an understanding that this is an article about the territory of Kosovo, and not the self-declared republic of Kosovo, it would also open up the discussion about why the other infobox isn't on top considering that the majority of the world's countries do not recognize Kosovo. Yes, Abkhazia and S. Ossetia have much less recognitions, but once again, it's not the same type of article - nobody can compare apples and oranges. I hope everyone here understands that. --Cinéma C 18:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Saying Kosovo is a province (The Province of Kosovo), automatically is pushing POV. Kosovo is an internationally recognized country (this is not disputable). Slovakia is not recognized by Lichtenshtein, should we call Slovakia a province, how about Israel? Kosovo institutions and police (including Serbian policemen that serve under Kosovo institutions) together with EULEX are the only governing institutions. There is no Serbian institution, no Serbian police, no Serbian solider, no Serbian customs official in Kosovo. Your argument are clearly not well though. If we do not put the republic infobox on top, we are taking sides. —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Calling Kosovo a country is no less POV than calling it a province, and please refrain from calling Kosovo either one of those here, as per template on top of the talk page. Kosovo is a territory that some claim as a province, some as an independent republic. In favor of the province status we have UN Resolution 1244, other international documents, and the majority of world states which do not recognize Kosovo; while Kosovo's independence declaration and a minority of countries in the world who recognized it are in favor of the country status. Every situation is unique and I personally think it shouldn't be like that - international laws on sovereignty and territorial integrity should apply to everyone, but some claim that they don't and that's why Kosovo declared independence. But it's not about what I think, and it's not about what any other user thinks. Nobody can jump to claim Kosovo as an internationally recognized country when it's not even recognized by a majority of world states, nor is it's independence accepted by the UN Security Council (whose resolutions, as far as I know, are binding) and is not a UN Member. Slovakia and Israel are all these things. This goes for the other side, and try to guess what would happen if a bunch of users here started jumping "Kosovo is Serbia" on the talk page. So let's just keep it NPOV, we are not taking sides if we put the territory of Kosovo on top, then having both RoK and PoK infoboxes below, and those two can be in which ever order you like (right now, the RoK is above the other one, and that's fine with me, even though it's representing the view of the minority above the view of the majority... but I don't think it's that big of a deal as long as the territory template is on top). --Cinéma C 20:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The difference here is due more to the number of users arguing for each side. The Abkazian and South Ossetia articles do not attract the number of people this article does. A possible reason for this is the difference in internet availability in Serbia as opposed to the Caucasus region. Also, those regions declared their independence many years ago; Kosovo only last year. Kosovo has increased in recognition steadily, they have not. This page is "news", those pages aren't. Ideally, there would be multiple articles for those areas that would separately cover each aspect. Until more traffic and more information is brought to those pages, they probably won't be split because of lack of data. 199.90.28.195 (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

--Sulmues 11:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)== Infobox ==

I find it POV that articles such as the unrecognized Somaliland have their infoboxes upfront, yet a country with substantial recognition does not. Fonda4ever (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the infobox is upfront. Jarkeld (talk) 22:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It is precisely on the note that Misplaced Pages is not a ballot box that my whole point yesterday was to promote further discussion. I accept also that if COAs are being used alongside flags on Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it is as good a point as any to include these details. I admit that had the two breakaway regions of Georgia not been using their COAs and flags at the top of the articles that I would have been opposed to this suggestion. As they do have it, I don't see a problem; but do not take this as the first step in a journey to amend all text references across the site to imply a universally accepted independent Kosovo. All sides have to be represented. I am equally cautious not to over-represent the Serbian position. Evlekis (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This last sentence reminded me that Cinema C once said that when someone claims to be neutral, it's usually not the case. Both of you have serbian origins, and as such I do not expect you to be neutral, so I"m not going to buy your neutrality. The infobox needs to be changed because now we have 3-4 infoboxes. They are superfluous and make the article illegible. Procrastinating improvement of an article makes the article ugly and that's probably what some people want to achieve. We're having lots of philibusters and few editors who improve things. I propose that the infoboxes be merged in ONE INFOBOX ONLY!sulmues talk-- 18:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

No, because you can't represent two points of view in one infobox. Now keep the discussion to one place please. ninety:one 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Fonda4ever, please don't call Kosovo a country as per the banner on the top of the talk page. This isn't the "Republic of Kosovo" article, this is the article about the territory of Kosovo, which some claim as a Republic, and some as a Province. Please keep that in mind. Sulmues, I don't have Serbian origins, and I don't understand why you are trying to use anyone's ethnicity as an argument - discuss the content, not the users or their ethnicity. The infoboxes can't be merged as they show opposing views on the territory. --Cinéma C 00:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cinema C, I reminded Evlekis of your own words. We are having a double standard here: Abkhazia and South Ossetia have one infobox and Kosovo has 3. You might go to Abkhazia's page and focus on splitting their article in two between Abkhazia the region and Republic of Abkhazia, if you don't want double standards, but I believe that having 2-3 infoboxes in each region-partially recognized country is just confusing for an encyclopedia. Therefore I propose again that we merge the three infoboxes and have 1 infobox only with COA and Flag on top as Misplaced Pages standards require. Please make constructive contributions.

Have you read any of the above comments? This is getting tiring... I mean, explaining the same thing over and over again... You can't compare apples and oranges, this is not an article about the self-declared Republic of Kosovo (like the articles about the self-declared republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia), but rather an article about the territory of Kosovo (like the articles about Ossetia or Macedonia (region)). If you'd like to create the Republic of Kosovo article, start a new discussion about that. --Cinéma C 18:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We cannot have one infobox (with the ROK insignia in), because that would imply that it referred solely to the ROK - and that would not present a neutral point of view. ninety:one 19:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes but we could put the ROK infobox on top, ande leave other two boxes also. That way, everyone would be happy, or unhappy. Either way that is more neutral than this. —Anna Comnena (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Anna, what you are proposing is that, in an article about the territory of Kosovo, the Republic of Kosovo should be before the territory of Kosovo template? It just makes no sense. Visit Ossetia and Macedonia (region), and once again, I urge everyone to understand the difference between articles about self-declared republics and territories / regions. --Cinéma C 20:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Either we make the article about the Republic of Kosovo and Kosovo redirects there, or we merge the two infoboxes into one only. Someone just reverted the boxes btw.user:sulmues--Sulmues 17:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to assume that Anna is trolling. How on this green earth is giving precedence to one perspective of the situation of Kosovo (by putting that infobox first) neutral? This discussion has run it's course. ninety:one 21:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

We should bring back two other infoboxes. But keep ROK on top, as other independent or partially recognized countries have it. If we do not put it on top, we automatically imply that Kosovo is somehow different from other partially recognized countries. And that is what only one side of the ANTI-PRO debate on Kosovo is saying. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Somebody said above, " The infobox needs to be changed because now we have 3-4 infoboxes. They are superfluous and make the article illegible. Procrastinating improvement of an article makes the article ugly and that's probably what some people want to achieve. We're having lots of philibusters and few editors who improve things." while I don't agree with that sentiment, Support proposal for a single infobox. we already have the text of the article to explain the situation and the number of infoboxes shouldn't be increased without limit. If the situation would be with 8-10 different POVs would we use 10 infoboxes? Let's stop the absurdity and explain the different POVs in the text. Hobartimus (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! Having ONE INFOBOX ONLY WITH COA AND FLAG ON TOP will sensibly improve the article, simplify the overall comprehension of a "territory/country/you name it" from someone that hears of Kosovo for the first time and then the different POVs can be explained in the article.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 13:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I am against having one infobox, as this would imply that there's no controversy over Kosovo's status. I know that some of you are really pushing this because you support Kosovo's independence, but one should not allow their personal opinions get in the way of building a neutral encyclopedia. Take, for example, User:Kedadi, who "supports the independence of Kosovo", "supports the reunification of Albania" (i.e. Greater Albania), "supports a NATOfied Kosovo", "thanks USA for their dominant alpha-male role on Kosovo" (all this taken from his user page) and presents himself as completely neutral when it comes to the most heated Albanian-related topic that is Kosovo. It's obvious what the agenda of some users here is, and quite frankly, I think that this is an insult to all the editors who have made substantial improvements to the article not because they have a POV to push, but because they sincerely want a better Kosovo article. Those hiding their interests under the banner of "improving the article" need to really stop what they're doing and either put their POV aside completely or find a different place to express their beliefs, because an encyclopedia does not and should not serve that purpose. This is the only way we will ever have a neutral Misplaced Pages, and the only progressive path to better articles. --Nogrentain (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

You have no substantial backup for your claim. Having one infobox does not mean that an article is pushing the idea that there is no controversy. This is far from what we are trying to achieve: simplicity in stating facts. There is already plenty of information in the article to explain the various opinions. But if having controversy for an article means to make a confusing article, then you are right, we have to make the article as much confusing as possible. If there are 100 POVs then we will have 100 infoboxes. For example if I wake up with the idea that the eskimos should have Kosovo as part of their cultural inheritance, and I find some claims of the eskimos on the net, possibly from "The Onion", I will put it in a little infobox. And also if I wake up and believe that I saw in a dream that Kosovo was the place where the mongols or the serbians had their cradle of civilizations, I'll put another two infoboxes and so on. We can have an infobox supermarket, where every nation can claim they were formed in Kosovo. Focus on content not on users: you make plenty of accusations that are not called for. sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Your rants wouldn’t pass as arguments even in kindergarten. Why in the world would any Eskimos or Mongols claim Kosovo? You’re equating some made-up bullshit with known facts – that the majority of the world does respect United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 (which is binding) and does not recognize Kosovo’s declaration of independence, while some recognize Kosovo’s self-declared status. There are no 100 views on Kosovo’s status, either you respect Resolution 1244 which specifically reaffirms FR Yugoslavia’s (now Serbia’s) sovereignty over Kosovo, or you don’t and claim that Kosovo has it’s own sovereignty. That’s it, and you know it. But those who push for one infobox want to hide the fact that Kosovo doesn’t have the same status as other world countries, they want to hide it for one reason only – to push their agenda which is evident from their user pages and contributions. I’m not making any accusations, this is all obvious to anyone who clicks on their pages and contributions. It’s not about simplicity.

Kosovo has 4 infoboxes, 3 dealing with the most controversial issue which is it’s status, and 1 history infobox. How many infoboxes does Albania have? 4 as well. We can’t have “simplicity” and the expense of accuracy. When you have two completely conflicting views on something, you can’t put them together. How would that look? Having the independence declaration date, and right next to it “but that’s not valid”, or maybe having the government type listed as a “parliamentary republic”, and right next to it “province” – is that it? I’m sorry, but I have not heard a single good argument for this. The South Ossetia and Abkhazia comparations are ridiculous, as matters like this can not be compared – every case speaks for itself. Change in the article is always welcome, but change isn’t always necessarily positive. In this case, we should embrace the status quo, as it’s keeping the peace and you know you’re on the right track when the only ones opposing you are Albanian or Serbian nationalists ; ) --Nogrentain (talk) 23:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Your keep throwing accusations left and right because your arguments are flawed: if they were correct, you wouldn't need to accuse people but would focus on content. But eventually you run out and then you start barking to editors. When the United States gained their independence from Great Britain, they didn't need to be recognized by the Ottoman Empire, did they? Or were they by any chance waiting for the first opportunity to be recognized by the Republic of Venice? Or were they not independent at all because the Kingdom of Denmark had not recognized them? Or is it "another case" and this one is specific? And if it is specific, why should it be specific to take into consideration only the Serbian POV? By this token the Albanian POV could be claimed in the Republic of Serbia article, where we should have two POVs, two infoboxes, two ideas: one that Kosovo is independent, and one that it is not. Is that want you want to do? Or is it again that Kosovo is specific and can be pushed left and right because it's a small country, while Serbia can't, because it's a bigger country? sulmues talk--Sulmues 12:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not making any accusations, I'm merely pointing out relevant information concerning the agenda of those who are using Misplaced Pages to push their point of view. The Kosovo article does not push the Serbian point of view, because if it was, the Kosovo article would not differ from the format of the Vojvodina article. Kosovo would have the title "Kosovo and Metohija", it would be called an autonomous province of Serbia, and there would be only one infobox - showing Kosovo as a part of Serbia. We're lucky there are no Serbian nationalists pushing for this because it seems that they have given up. Albanian nationalists, on the other hand, are not giving up on thier P.O.V. pushing.

Kosovo cannot be compared to Voivodina. In Kosovo 95% of the population is Albanian, in Voivodina 15% of the population is Hungarian. This is just an impertinent comparison you are making.sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My arguments are not flawed, they make perfect sense to any unbiased editor on Misplaced Pages. You, on the other hand, are trying to compare US independence (perhaps in a vain attempt to show your love for the US and gain some support from American editors) with Kosovo independence, something that was declared in 1776 with something that was declared in 2008... What an absurd argument, as there are international laws and resolutions today that didn't exist in 1776, etc etc. Your arguments are flawed as I explained above. Again, you are making accusations on the content. I'm pointing out how independence is not gained on tables of the UN. There is no historical valid argumentation that independence is gained because five countries in UN say so. sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

"if it is specific, why should it be specific to take into consideration only the Serbian POV" - What the hell are you talking about? Are you aware that this article is considered fiercly pro-Albanian by most Serbian editors, even the way it is now? The Serbian POV is that Kosovo is an AUTONOMOUS PROVINCE OF SERBIA, not a disputed territory, country, or whatever. Read the article, you'll find that the only thing pro-Serbian is the damn infobox, which is, btw, the last one in the row. The main map shows Kosovo in Europe, and Serbia is shaded to show how some see it as a part of Serbia (but there is a border between Kosovo and Central Serbia), while, in the Republic of Serbia article you mentioned, the Albanian POV is respected and presented as well - Kosovo is shaded on the map. But please realize that this is not the Republic of Kosovo article, this is an article about the territory of Kosovo - which is claimed as the Republic of Kosovo and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, depending on the world government or individual you're talking to. If you don't like that both views are covered in this article, feel free to take out everything concerning the Republic of Kosovo and create a separate Republic of Kosovo article, but make sure to create an Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article as well, in order for things to be fair. In that case, this article will only talk about Kosovo's early history, geography, natural resources, etc, etc, and the political stuff will be left for the two articles with the Albanian and Serbian points of view.

This article is not pro-Albanian, but pro-Serbian. I think we should not only change this article but also the Serbian article that considers Kosovo serbian, without considering the Albanian POV.sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

And more on info box

Also, look at the sentence on top of this talk page: "This is not a forum for general discussion of Kosovo, or whether it is a 'country', 'state' or 'province'." - so everyone, please, stop debating what the status of Kosovo is. It's a disputed territory, and the article is about that territory, which is claimed by the Belgrade and Prishtina governments. No one side will have it's way in the Kosovo article. Deal with it. --Nogrentain (talk) 00:39, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The pathos with which you write handles me the impression that your arguments are weak. You write three big bubbles and you still don't answer my question. Since you did not have the time to read it I am going to repeat it again: Since we should have two POVs in this article (represented by two infoboxes), the Albanian POV could be claimed in the Republic of Serbia article, where we should have two POVs, two infoboxes, two ideas: one that Kosovo is independent, and one that it is not. Is that want you want to do? Please answer and we will know whether what you want is that we go to the Serbia articles and amend all of them so that we have the Albanian-Kosovar POV in ALL OF THEM! sulmues talk--Sulmues 13:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Two boxes would be fine! Furthermore, it is not POV to put ROK box on top, as that would conform to all other disputed countries. Not putting it, is a POV. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I repeat that this is not an article dedicated to the Republic of Kosovo exclusively. The only article that can reasonably have a "Republic of Kosovo infobox" at the top would be an article dedicated to the Republic of Kosovo. Please stop belabouring this point. --dab (𒁳) 14:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Dab, The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. We are trying to discuss. We all agree that this page is NOT exclusively about Republic of Kosovo, in fact in its current form you can barely see any trace of ROK. We are discussing (as this is a discussion page) on the ways of de-complicating the article. Kosovo is de facto an independent country, it is the de jure independence that is disputed. But the current page somehow denotes that Kosovo is a province administered by both Serbian and Albanian government. In fact (de facto) and by law (de jure) it is only governed by an Albanian administration/government (monitored by EULEX). When someone reads this article - that reader should understand that. The current form is very complicated. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:45, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

well, if you are trying to discuss, you aren't doing a particularly good job, because I fail to see anything here that hasn't already been discussed repeatedly, in detail.

you are very welcome to rehash points of these discussions, in particular with a view towards article improvemet, but then it would be nice to be aware of what has been said before.

I don't see the problem with the current article, but the obvious "de-complication" would be the creation of a Republic of Kosovo article. This has been tried, but people have objected for reasons that did not strike me as entirely rational.

I frankly do not see any claim that Kosovo is in any way "administered by the Albanian government". Albania hasn't been involved in this at all.

please. If you want to make a useful contribution, either revive a past suggestion (such as an article split), or present some new suggestion that nobody has thought of yet. Just discussion for the sake of discussion isn't the puropse of this page. --dab (𒁳) 15:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I did not say THE Albanian Government, I said AN Albanian administration. Maybe we could treat semantics in another discussion. The creation of ROK as a separate article would totally imply that ROK is just a claim. When it (ROK) is a fact. What is disputed is the legality it has. And, I do not see how it matters if these issues have been discussed earlier, this page is still on probation all perspectives would be helpful if brought forward.

I had two suggestions, ONE: Leave all three boxes, ROK on top and TWO: Remove the first box, and leave only other two (As User:Sulmues stated: Kosovo is disputed as independent vs. province of Serbia). —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I see. I do not think either of your suggestions is arguable.

As long as this is the Kosovo article, the only infobox that has any business at all to be at the top of this article is the "territory" infobox on Kosovo currently at the top. I fail to see how this is at all open to debate.

The second infobox is in fact just here because some people insist that Republic of Kosovo should redirect here, while others insist that there must be an RoK infobox somewhere.

As long as Republic of Kosovo redirects here, the most appropriate place for the RoK infobox will be under the section Kosovo#Constitutional_Status_and_the_Republic_of_Kosovo.

As for the third infobox, it is duplicated from United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo. Since it is already shown there, there isn't any obvious need to keep it here, and I suppose its only role is to counterbalance the already dodgy presence of the RoK infobox.

The only arguable change in infoboxes I can see would be either removing both the RoK and UNMIK infoboxes, or moving the RoK infobox to the RoK section and removing the UNMIK one as duplicated from the UNMIK article.

This is, for as long as there is no Republic of Kosovo article. It is not clear at all why we have an article on UNMIK and none on RoK, as both are institutions claiming governance over Kosovo. As soon as we have a Republic of Kosovo article in parallel to the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, the three infoboxes can just be distributed on three articles, as is proper practice. The mere existence of three separate infoboxes strongly indicates that there are three entities, which can perfectly well be discussed in three dedicated articles. --dab (𒁳) 15:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

There are two things I do not understand in all this. First - Who decided that Kosovo is only about the territory. Second - Kosovo is not a disputed territory, it is a disputed country. As there are NO two or more countries involved "A territorial dispute is a disagreement over the possession/control of land between two or more states". —Anna Comnena (talk) 16:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

sigh. This article is not "only" about the territory. It is about the territory and its history, including the history of 2008 to present, which makes the RoK a subtopic of this article.

how difficult can it be to distinguish a territory from a state? Kosovo is a disputed territory. The Republic of Kosovo is a partially recognized state. No, Kosovo isn't a partially recognized state any more than the Republic of Kosovo is a disputed territory. Please try to pay attention and phrase things accurately, as you are only confusing yourself with your blurry terminology. --dab (𒁳) 18:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, sorry for my insistence, but, I have to protest against this 'certainty' on such complex issues. It is an oxymoron to claim that Kosovo is a "disputed territory" - as a territorial dispute is a disagreement over the possession/control of land between two or more states. You have to recognize Kosovo as an independent country in order to call it a "disputed territory". Kosovo is de facto independent, but de jure it is disputed. —Anna Comnena (talk) 00:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Anna, please try to read my lips or something: Kosovo is disputed between the Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Kosovo. You have to accept the Republic of Kosovo as an entity to claim there is a dispute. This article plainly grants the existence of the self-declared Republic of Kosovo, an entity that happens to have unilaterally declared independece from Serbia. The only thing we need to accept in order to describe the dispute is that the Republic of Kosovo is an entity that claims independence. Please stop saying "Kosovo" when you really mean "Republic of Kosovo", as I have stated before, you are only confusing yourself. Please try to wrap your head around the fact that "RoK" is just a name. The self-declared Repubilc could have picked any name at all, including "The Merry Men of Sherwood", ok? If that was the name they had picked, we would now state that Kosovo is disputed between the Republic of Serbia and the Merry Men of Sherwood. As it happens, and not coincidentially, the picked a name that contains the string "Kosovo". It is still just the name of a self-declared entity, like any other state's name. The difference lies in international recognition, and the RoK's international recognition is partial. --dab (𒁳) 07:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

But you've just contradicted yourself. Copying your text from two parts you see It is an oxymoron to claim that Kosovo is a "disputed territory" followed shortly by but 'de jure' it is disputed. So we're onto the intro again. The term disputed territory defines the situation as well as the language allows in such circumstances. Normally a territory is disuputed by two sovereign nations. Here the conflict is between a country who prior to 2008 was internationally recognised as including a certain land and that land itself which has declared independence. The territory (for there is no better word) is disputed by two authorities: the governments of Belgrade and Pristina. A "disputed country" is a contradiction in terms entire of itself. It first acknowledges the sovereignty of a specific state and it then implies that two rival organisations are at odds over which of the two is the legal authority. This situation exists today with China (PROC and ROC) as did for some time in Afghanistan (when the Taliban held only two thirds). But then given that in all scenarios the conflicting parties are agreed upon both the statehood of the land and that land's frontiers, it cannot be the country which is disputed. Many countries are otherwise de facto independent. The source of the dispute regarding Kosovo is the overwhelming number of countries who do and do not recognise its independence, as well as those in two minds (with mixed sentiment among politicians/parties). World opinion on this issue is clearly divided. Evlekis (talk) 11:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I am glad that you got my point. Was afraid it was too complicated. Well I was trying to say that the disputed territory should be changed to a disputed country. As the territory is clearly administered by a certain Government, police and army. No one disputes that Kosovars should administer it. There is no dispute in that. What is disputed is the country of Kosovo (ROK). Since this page is still on probation a little change on the lead (though discussed earlier) could be welcome. The current version is still not "politically correct". Maybe that is more important than the infobox for the moment. —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, you completely misinterpreted my statement. A "disputed country" is precisely what Kosovo is not. I was explaining how the phrasing disputed country is a contradiction in terms because if it were universally accepted that it were a country, it could not be the subject of dispute. The situation here is that you say it is a country and others do not. The subject of dispute is the territory. As for all being agreed that Kosovo should be run by Kosovans, that too is only partially correct. Kosovan Albanians say that the buck should stop with them whilst the Serbian nation (including those in Kosovo) say that the level of self-rule within Kosovo should be limited and should at all times observe its role within a wider Serbian entity, as is the case with other proposed districts such as Podunavlje. Something is disputed, correct, but whatever it is cannot follow "disputed" because such a remark is in direct conflict with itself. It is as POV as the term "disputed province". Naturally, I do not suggest that usage because asides "disputed", it would play straight into the hands of the Serb sympathisers. Either way, I hope you see that they could stand from the same position; easily arguing "it is a province which is de jure disputed". Evlekis (talk) 15:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Anna, it appears that when you say "country of Kosovo" you mean "Republic of Kosovo". Why don't you just say "Republic of Kosovo" for clarity's sake? The RoK is a partially recognized state. Thank you. As for "the territory is clearly administered by a certain Government, police and army" this is, unfortunately, rather far from clear. The territory appears to be de facto administered by a mixture of organized crime, UN troops, EU police corps and outfits of former guerilla fighters. The exact situation may change monthly, and I do not claim to be up to date, but if you claim that as of September 2009 there is a clear and stable governance of Kosovo, you should present references to that effect. According to the article, "A 2,500-strong Kosovo Security Force (KSF) is to be trained by NATO and will be operational toward the end of 2009" -- we'll need to stay updated on how that goes, and what effect it will have on the overall mix of forces, but we'll need solid references on that. --dab (𒁳) 07:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So that is what is missing. References? Here is my case on what you said: Kosovo has a legitimate Government, voted by its people, that has control of 80% of the territory (except the enclaves). There is a high criminal rate, but only in northern Mitrovica enclave. That place is like an anarchist commune - but allot bigger. I will try and keep this page updated with references on my claims. Thanks! —Anna Comnena (talk) 08:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

the legitimacy of the RoK is disputed. Do you understand the word "dispute", Anna? It means that some people (like you) say it is legitimate, while others say it isn't. The question of de facto governance is unrelated to this, and yes, it would be useful to have more sources on the current status of the various forces policing Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 10:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

What legitimacy is "disputed"? Dbachmann, how can you say that "de facto governance is unrelated" when it has everything to do with the whole thing. That so-called "de facto government" is recognized by many countries. Just because it hasn't reached half the world states or joined NATO and the UN does not mean the legitamacy is disputed. The fact remains simple. Serbia has a few friends on the world stage - ex-communists and countries with dictators, and they all agree that Serbia rightfully owns Kosova. Wrong. It doesn't. They never moaned about the so-called "legitamacy" of the independence. All countries have the right to break away and be independent as long as a majority votes for independence. If you hold onto a population who don't want to be part of your land, you are conquering them and suppressing them at that. Kosova is about 97% Albanian now and is traditionally 90% Albanian. Who can dispute that legitamacy? Ofcourse Lithuanians and Latvians all broke away from Russia because they formed majorities in their territories and so they held a referendum and chose to break out of Russia. Nobody says "what is legit?" and everyone recognizes Latvia and Lithuania, same as they recognize Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia who all split from Serbia (Yugoslavia). There is nothing at all different about Kosova. There should be one infobox, amalgamate all information from the UN one - get rid of the other and just use ROK on top with flag/COA. Lover Of Democracy (talk) 14:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

read the article please. If you are a "Lover Of Democracy", may I also recommend, speaking from a background of 150 years of constitutional direct democracy, that you should try and come to terms with the concept of "dispute" as soon as possible. Will also be useful for Misplaced Pages. --dab (𒁳) 15:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually Dab, I can dispute France all I want, it won't make any difference. It is only on legal terms that a country can be disputed. But my point is (again), ROK is disputed as a country. Russia, Serbia, China (and so on) do not recognize it. But no one disputes it as a territory, 1244 gives a legitimate mandate to Kosovo's Government and 1244 is accepted by Serbia. Furthermore, as stated earlier, a territorial dispute can only be between two countries - that is, if Albania had claimed Kosovo. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:35, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

that's a question of WP:NOTE. You can dispute France all you want and nobody will care because you are Anna. If you were Dmitry Medvedev or Hu Jintao, we would be sure to read about it in the news.

your contorted interpretation of UN resolutions is just WP:POINT now. There is no UN resolution recognizing any "Republic of Kosovo".

please don't waste any more talkspace real estate with this sort of sophistry. --dab (𒁳) 15:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Dab UN don't recognize states. Recognition of states is exclusive right of each country.-- LONTECH 16:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The article pushes a Serb irredentist point of view

I think this articles gives way to much weight to a Serb irredentist point of view. Kosovo is both de facto and de jure a souvereign country, that is recognized by the international community including the U.S. and all major European nations as well as all of its neighbour states except Serbia. Kosovo is primarily a souvereign country, not a "disputed territory". Presenting it primarily as a "disputed territory" makes the article push a Serb irredentist point of view and is inappropriate. (Republic of Kosovo redirects here, which means this is the Republic of Kosovo article). Urban XII (talk) 20:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo may be de facto a sovereign country, but it is certainly not de jure sovereign. If this were the case then why is the matter of its independence being taken to the ICJ? It is utterly incorrect to say that it's not disputed. Clearly it is - and it's not just Serbia that disputes it. It doesn't matter whether you support the Kosovo side of the argument or the Serbian side, this article must give a balanced point of view. Saying that Kosovo is unquestionably a sovereign nation is POV and hence not allowed. Bazonka (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Kosovo redirects here because it was judged the overlap of a potential "Republic of Kosovo" article with this one would be too great. This still isn't the "Republic of Kosovo" article, "Republic of Kosovo" is clearly a sub-topic of this article, and it is in principle possible to create a WP:SS sub-article at Republic of Kosovo. --dab (𒁳) 21:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

They would accept to create RoK if the Kosovo redirects to the RoK like most of the republics here in wiki. Also if this article is about territory i dont see any reason why dont they create Kosovo Territory-- LONTECH 07:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

sorry, this doesn't make any sense. See Kosovo (disambiguation) for things called "Kosovo". As this article plainly states, Kosovo is a disputed territory, claimed both as a province of Serbia and as the territory of a sovereign state. Misplaced Pages does not and will not favour either side of this dispute, and hence we will not redirect Kosovo to either Republic of Kosovo or Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. I have no idea why people keep bringing this up as there is really no WP:SNOWball's chance of such a move. Perhaps we should compile a FAQ page as it is becoming kind of boring to reply to the same WP:POINT "suggestion" over and over again. --dab (𒁳) 07:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

If this is coming up "over and over again", it's because the article is POV (it favors a Serb irredentist point of view, unseen of in other articles) in the opinion of many editors. This should be fixed instead of "explained", as there is clearly no consensus that the current article complies with WP:NPOV and other core policies. Rather it's used as a vehicle for Serbian political propaganda. Urban XII (talk) 12:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

de jure VS de facto

de jure (concerning law), de facto (concerning fact) - I think the expression de jure is not being used properly. De jure is the whole problem of Kosovo, that is why the case is on the Court of Law. So Kosovo is not de jure a Serbian province, that is the real dispute. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

the "de jure" part is dodgy any way, because there is no binding international law concerning secession. The UN de jure prohibits states from annexing territory of other states, but it doesn't deal with secession. Secession movements for the purposes of the UN are internal affairs of member states, in this case the internal affair of Serbia. There is in fact a 2006 publication by the UN on international law and secession, but this is a collection of essays, not binding international law. --dab (𒁳) 14:13, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Correct. The organisation also leaves out conditions for lands which may unify by mutual concent. And if that territory once broke away from another country, there is nothing the system can do to stop it happening - one of the many flaws of the UN. Evlekis (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

so, we should probably leave out any comments on "de jure" altogether unless we can attribute them. As for the UN, nobody ever claimed it was even close to perfection, it has always just been "better than nothing". The UN has never been some sort of utopian world government, it has always just been our current best attempt at keeping the geopolitical powers-that-be from unleashing World War III. --dab (𒁳) 15:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. But the UN is to START WWIII, not stop it. Get your facts right dab, geez. Beam 05:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

in fact, judging from last week, the UN is a self-help-group for ageing, lonely dictators like colonel Qaddhafi. --dab (𒁳) 07:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Fake de facto North Kosovo

"except for North Kosovo, which remains under de facto governance of Serbia." this is Fake

Municipalities in the north including north mitrovica use UNMIK stamps not republic of Serbia Stamps

Courts use Eulex Stamp there is no Republic of Serbia in the Courts

Kosovo Police in the north reports to EULEX police there are no Republic of Serbia Police in the north

There is No Police of (Republic of Serbia) in North Kosovo Customs

the person who edited this probably dont know what is governance?-- LONTECH 14:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I have addressed this issue before. It is a bit of a sticky point, not easy to define. Three municipalities in North Kosovo and two others elsewhere are not controlled by Belgrade, but by locals. The locals of the five municipalities have a Serb majority who govern themselves in such a way as to deliberately observe Belgrade policy. Then again, Serbia does and has always recognised UNMIK and sees this as the highest body with the authority to rule over all matters. I believe that the governance within the five municipalities operates in such a way as to also respect this position. But what is unclear is: with there being an Albanian population within the Serb enclaves, how does it happen that Pristina leaves this region alone? What would happen if Pristina decided to assert its control over these areas? Does it really not wish to on account of the Albanians forming a minority? Or is it really EURALEX which is stopping them from doing so in order to keep peace? If it is the latter, then it is clear that local Serbs are maintaining influence in their zones. But these questions I believe nobody can answer. Evlekis (talk) 13:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding UNMIK - Stop PROPAGANDA please

KOSVO ASSEMBLY is the HIGHEST body

Unmik and Eulex serves as Bridge beetween Prishtina and North Kosovo after independence UNMIK is DEAD

Serbs are maintaining and will maintain influence in all Municipalities as long as they are majority in those municipalities In order to give serbs more independence from Prishtina and according to DECENTRALIZATION Prishtina will create at least 5 other municipalities with serbian majority ex.(Gracanica) which now is part of Prishtina, Municipality OF NORTH MITROVICA, Prtesh etc -- LONTECH 21:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no propaganda. UNMIK, NATO, UN, EU, EURALEX, call it what you wish. There is an international presence in Kosovo. The Kosovo Assembly is heavily dependent on this presence because left to fight one against one with no logistical support from or arms coming from the side, Kosovo would not last long against Serbia. They kept the war going by forever running for cover in Albania to regroup every time the VJ advanced, but take away outside help (from Albania too) and arms and support (from the US) and Kosovo will not have the power to fight. Sufficient is it to say that in the event of a dispute between Kosovo's "assembly" and the international authorities, the so-called "HIGHEST body" is in no position to give EURALEX orders. So the "assembly" has de facto control of most of its municipalities and that is the end. The other five are governed locally. Evlekis (talk) 03:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Your reply is Demagogy and no one here dont like to hear Demagogy

the "assembly" dont have de facto control of most of its municipalities and that is not the end because the Assembly of Kosovo dont control local governments (local cities) local Assembly

You dont have idea what is Assembly?

Every city (municipality) has its own Assembly they are independent from the Assembly of Kosovo-- LONTECH 05:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Well Lontech, if people don't want to know about demagogy you should have thought about that before starting this provocative and disruptive section "North Kosovo is fake". I know what an assembly is (скупштина, skupština, sobranie, knesset, seimas, Russian Duma, mejlis?). It is parliament. The powers of the townships and municipalities are limited and cannot violate the constitution, neither can they overlook provisions laid down by the assembly. If the ministries which form the assembly state "drive with these plates, use this currency, this is our phone code etc" then all who serve that assembly are obliged to comply. The assembly of Kosovo implements nothing at all within the Serb enclaves and it seems according to you that the international heavy mob stands to ensure that this status quo remains in place. Evlekis (talk) 13:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"under de facto governance of Serbia" - do you agree that this statement this is Fake -- LONTECH 04:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Not fake, just de facto as you say. Nothing de facto can be fake. How it is de jure governed is a different matter but that is the whole source of the dispute. --Evlekis (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

De facto - No courts no police no army there are no Republic of serbia in the north and there are Kosovo Police in the North and the command of the Kosovo Police is in Prishtina

you misunderstood the term defacto or you forgot that there are no institution of republic of serbia in the north

stop propaganda

this should be removed or renamed under Eulex administration -- LONTECH 14:32, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Lontech, will you please refrain from constantly reproducing this isolated "Stop propaganda" slogan. You are not here to demonstrate, and this is not a protest. Nobody is spreading propaganda. The loyalty of the Serb enclaves to Belgrade is optional and is not a claim that the municipalities form some sort of "Serbian sattelite state". They may be making the most of their autonomy and there may yet be a police force controlled by Pristina there, but is that force doing anything more than driving around and carrying out ceremonial patrols? According to my information, the three northern municipalities are taking their orders from the ethnic Serb section of Kos. Mitrovica. This body in turn governs its region in such a way which is unconstitutional throughout the rest of Kosovo. For example, Albanian is an official language. It can either be superior to or on the same level as Serbian according to the Kosovan Assembly. That means that no Serb should leave school unable to speak Albanian for having had atleast one part of his basic education with that tongue as the medium of instruction. You provide me with a list of schools in "Fake North Kosovo" which the "Prishtina Police" is ensuring that Albanian is taught to non-Albanians. --Evlekis (talk) 18:36, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Its is not just porpaganda but it is also Demagogy You have a lack of information about official languages in kosovo According to constitution of Republic Of Kosovo Official languages are Albanian and Serbian

what about your state tetovo city in macedonia etc. does this cities take orders from albania and not from skopje (since albanians govern this municipalities) this is demagogy

again i thought you agreed in your in your first reply you said it is not controlled by belgrade but by locals

do you agree to remove under de facto of governance of serbia - they can take orders but they are governed by locals as you said -- LONTECH 20:45, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

We can add they keep strong ties with serbia -- LONTECH 20:45, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Now I see what you are proposing. Well certainly I agree; at no time did I personally suggest that North Kosovo was with the rest of Serbia. Locals govern for sure, and what degree of their governance is accepted by Pristina and what is beyond its influence is a different subject. I can safely say that I see no problem with your idea. No demagogy or propaganda now! :) --Evlekis (talk) 21:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Geography propaganda

I suggest removing "Metohija" because this is not geography this is Slobodan Milošević propaganda

I vouch for that. Lover Of Democracy (talk) 09:24, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

and replace that paragraph with

Kosovo is situated between the 42° and 44° parallels of northern hemisphere and between the 20° and 22° meridians. Positioned in the centre of the Balkan Peninsula -- LONTECH 07:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, Milosevic went back in time to the 13th century and, in his tyranical manner, imposed the name and Metohija on the local populace. Hxseek (talk) 05:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

I solved the infobox problem at long last by taking out the irrelevant one and placing the national ROK box on the top as people need to see it. Can't argue with democracy and that is how all Kosovars see the state (because Serbs are not real Kosovars and they are down to about 1% anyway). In addition, this is how a vast amount of countries recognize the region. This is also as per concensus on this page (ie. Kedadi, myself, Anna Fabiano, Factarius, a gang of others). The "anti-Kosovo" party lead by Dab lost out and run out of steam a good month ago. They have given no arguments and are grappling onto the lost cause "it is Serbia" rebuffed view. Lover Of Democracy (talk) 09:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

This sort of behavior makes me ashamed to be on the same side as you. While I am in favor of Kosovo independence, it is rather rude and bigoted to refer to people who have lived their entire lives in Kosovo as not being real Kosovars. As far as the infoboxes go, as long as this page is not officially the Republic of Kosovo page that infobox should NOT be at the top. This page should be reformatted into a disambiguation page leading to articles dealing with each phase in Kosovo's history and each government that currently claims it. Also a "lover of democracy" should have asked for input from others before doing this. Khajidha (talk) 13:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

If you dont have a Good reason to oppose INFObox on top STOP Replying

There is a Big HUGE propaganda about this article

There is a fact that: We are using double standards for Kosovo and other states (Abhkazia) etc even editors dont know the reason why they are opposing Coat of arms cause they change their statements every hour

Finally: There is a Consensus about this-- LONTECH 00:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

All serious Misplaced Pages editors are tired of having discussions about the same thing over and over again. If you don't have the will to look over the previous discussions about the matter and do not want to put some effort into reading all of them, I do not have the will, nor will I put any effort into, repeating it all. Show some respect for this web-site and project. --Cinéma C 01:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

there is a broad consensus to put ROK in top.-- LONTECH 02:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

nonsense. There are no "double standards", we are judging each case on its own merit as we should. This has been discussed to death. The current revision is perfectly stable, and any attempts at edit-warring over it should be met with sanctions per the hatnote on this page. Any bogus claims of "consensus" just go to illustrate bad faith on the part of those making them. Now please find something else to invest your wiki time in. --dab (𒁳) 09:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

in fact, I must concede that the Abkhazia and South Ossetia articles appear to be biased in favour of the secessionist viewpoint. Please take this to Talk:Abkhazia and Talk:South Ossetia and stop complaining about it here; see also WP:OTHERCRAP, one policy violation is no defense of another. --dab (𒁳) 10:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

There are no "double standards" you said also I'll post one of your statements here -> There is no UN resolution recognizing any "Republic of Kosovo". but my friend i'll repeat it again UN dont recognize states

and i think that you dont have knowledge about Diplomacy and International Law

You maybe are admin but that doesn't mean you know everything

Also you are breaking every Misplaced Pages rule there is a broad consensus 80-90% about this and if you want i'll add names.-- LONTECH 18:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

All you have done since you arrived on this page is post incoherent inflammatory comments and general accusations of pretty much everything. Please try to contribute more constructively in future. ninety:one 17:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

"United Nations has maintained a position of strict neutrality on the question of Kosovo's status"., and so has Misplaced Pages. Slapping the secessionist flag at the top of the Kosovo article hardly amounts to "a position of strict neutrality". Now please stop trolling this talkpage. --dab (𒁳) 17:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not neutral to slap the flag of Serbia with a miniscule Kosovo inside. We're trying to be consistent with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I would advise that you stop bullying around and revert edits when there is a consensus. We are not doing the same thing to Serbia's page, but given your behavior, probably we should.user:sulmues--Sulmues 21:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I suggest that we go back to the version of Lover of Democracy. user:sulmues--Sulmues 21:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Stop comparing articles, read what dab wrote. Georgia has a map that doesn't have Abkhazia and S. Ossetia shaded, while the map of Serbia has Kosovo shaded in that article. So what? I could go on complaining that the Serbia article should resemble the Georgia article, but I understand that every case is unique. Besides, even the Kosovo leadership and those who support it use the "every case is unique" argument, so accept that there's no neutrality if one side gets it all, and the other side gets nothing. I know it's easier to just push your own beliefs instead of trying to see things from a different point of view. Tolerance, mutual understanding and respect. Start from there. On the other hand, I'm afraid that some users are using Misplaced Pages to promote their "national interests" to a global stage (since Misplaced Pages is a popular web-site) and don't really care that this is not the purpose of this encyclopedia. If this is your goal, leave now. If not, show how you can think above your own POV. --Cinéma C 00:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Cinema C dont act here like neutral . Go check http://en.wikipedia.org/Template_talk:Kosovo-note

what are you tryin to do with your statements now is clear. you want to win support of other serious editors like dab etc.

so dont act like your neutral.-- LONTECH 11:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Dab You have to accept there is a consensus but that consensus is not valid because you decided like that.-- LONTECH 11:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

There was never consensus for three (3!!) infoboxes, that was always absurd on it's face. Wiki practice is a single infobox in all of our articles. Multiplying infoboxes is not an accepted practice, what if there are 8-10 different POVs on a topic use 10 infoboxes on top of each other? Not to mention the horrid redundancy for exl. Hashim Thaci being the prime minister in all Kosovos... All POVs can be properly explained in the text. Serbs believe in Greater Serbia Kosovars believe in independent Kosovo. Usa is for X Russia is for Y etc etc. Hobartimus (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh really? Serbs believe in Greater Serbia? I'd like a reference showing all Serbs believe in Greater Serbia. Kosovars believe in independent Kosovo? Really? The Serbs in North Kosovo believe in independent Kosovo too? --Cinéma C 23:24, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

No the user is stating that they believe in both Greater Serbia and an independent Kosovo!!!!!!!! --Evlekis (talk) 15:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest that issues regarding Abkhazia should be resolved at that talk page? Just because that article does or doesn't do something, doesn't mean that this article should or shouldn't do it, nor vice-versa. OTOH, if you think that the situations are essentially the same and should thus be treated the same, and if there are other examples that should follow the same convention, feel free to join or start a discussion about a convention for those cases.

But please, use this talk page to discuss this article. 193.2.132.108 (talk) 21:20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I see no change in consensus. I see a single-topic editor repeating over and over how there is supposedly a new consensus, without any evidence that this is so. The current article revision is the stable consensus such as it is, and was developed after months of debate. If you want to do a significant change in presentation, such as merging, splitting or moving about infoboxes, you will need a very clear change in consensus before you go ahead. Before there is any evidence of that, we are just wasting time here. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a new consensus, I even took voting on it and we were told that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. That was a 10-1 vote. If that's not consensus... http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Kosovo&oldid=314341520#There_is_a_standard_on_wikipediauser:sulmues--198.185.66.249 (talk) 12:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

dab now you have evidence.--    LONTECH     14:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• B-Class country articles
• WikiProject Countries articles
• B-Class Kosovo articles
• Top-importance Kosovo articles
• WikiProject Kosovo articles
• B-Class Serbia articles
• Top-importance Serbia articles
• WikiProject Serbia articles
• B-Class Europe articles
• High-importance Europe articles
• WikiProject Europe articles