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Revision as of 13:15, 16 October 2009

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Welcome to the Media Copyright Questions page, a place for help with image copyrights, tagging, non-free content, and related questions. For all other questions please see Misplaced Pages:Questions.

How to add a copyright tag to an existing image

1. On the description page of the image (the one whose name starts File:), click Edit this page.
2. From the page Misplaced Pages:File copyright tags, choose the appropriate tag:
   • For work you created yourself, use one of the ones listed under the heading "For image creators".
   • For a work downloaded from the internet, please understand that the vast majority of images from the internet are not appropriate for use on Misplaced Pages. Exceptions include images from flickr that have an acceptable license, images that are in the public domain because of their age or because they were created by the United States federal government, or images used under a claim of fair use. If you do not know what you are doing, please post a link to the image here and ask BEFORE uploading it.
   • For an image created by someone else who has licensed their image under an acceptable Creative Commons or other free license, or has released their image into the public domain, this permission must be documented. Please see Requesting copyright permission for more information.
3. Type the name of the tag (e.g.; {{Cc-by-4.0}}), not forgetting {{ before and }} after, in the edit box on the image's description page.
4. Remove any existing tag complaining that the image has no tag (for example, {{untagged}})
5. Hit Publish changes.
6. If you still have questions, go on to "How to ask a question" below.

How to ask a question

1. To ask a new question hit the "Click here to start a new discussion" link below.
2. Please sign your question by typing ~~~~ at the end.
3. Check this page for updates, or request to be notified on your talk page.
4. Don't include your email address, for your own privacy. We will respond here and cannot respond by email.

Note for those replying to posted questions

If a question clearly does not belong on this page, reply to it using the template {{mcq-wrong}} and, if possible, leave a note on the poster's talk page. For copyright issues relevant to Commons where questions arising cannot be answered locally, questions may be directed to Commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright.

If you have a question about a specific image, please be sure to link to it like this: ]. (Please note the ":" just before the word File) Thanks!

Archives

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This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Bianca_c_ship.jpg

I received a message on my talk page about File:Bianca_c_ship.jpg but after reading the information about providing a rationale, I'm more confused than before. It's the only picture available of this somewhat obscure ship before it was wrecked. I obtained permission from the copyright holder back in 2006 to use it in Misplaced Pages. How do I put that information into a rationale template? -Etoile (talk) 12:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you get permission to use it only on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere too? If the latter, you could change the license tag to an appropriate free license (probably {{CopyrightedFreeUseProvided}} or {{attribution}}). If the former, just put in one or two sentences explaining what you just explained above, noting that it's important for the article, that it's not replaceable, and since you have permission at least for wikipedia there can be no concern you are causing the copyright holder commercial damage. That's the "rationale". Don't bother about templates, just put in a "rationale" header and a few sentences that make some sense and you're done. You may also add {{Non-free with permission}}. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Better yet, read WP:FURG and supply a proper rationale. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Actually, no. If Etoile simply writes down what he wrote above, he will have written a better rationale than anybody ever did after reading WP:FURG and all that useless pseudo-boilerplate text there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
    • One of the key aspects of a rationale is the purpose of use. Etoile said nothing about purpose. WP:FURG is a content guideline, and it is in his interest and that of Misplaced Pages for him to read it if he wants to upload non-free images. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
      • ... and I still maintain that we must finally start placing less emphasis on writing formally "correct" rationales, and more emphasis on writing rationales that have some meaningful content, so I'll always prefer a few simple common-sense statements by a user who is actually talking about their individual case, over the millionth template blindly parrotting "The photo is only being used for informational purposes" or "Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because bla bla". Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
        • I agree with you completely. WP:FURG supports that. It also supports including a reason for the use, in fact requires it. I don't like the templated reasons anymore than you do. Some of those templated reasons have gone up in flames, and more of them will. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
• You guys work fast! I see Fut.Perf. added a rationale for me. It's great so I won't change it. While reading WP:FURG it occurred to me that the picture is also the only 'clear' picture of Bianca C - pictures of the wreck will not show the ship as a whole, and wreck site pictures are often blurry and such. So I'm even more confident that it's got a good rationale in addition to permission. Now I'll go add my gender on my profile, because seeing "he" is kind of weird. ;) -Etoile (talk) 20:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright question...

I previously released all of my images to the public domain, but have since realized I would at least like recognition if they are ever used elsewhere... I began be researching which tag I should use, and decided upon {{Cc-by-sa-3.0}}... Am I correct in assuming that this license allows anyone, anywhere, to use the image, just so long as they attribute it to me? Also, how would I go about changing the license on File:White Mitsubishi 3000GT front.jpg, which has since been moved to Commons? - Adolphus79 (talk) 14:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you've released that image into the public domain. Such a release is not revocable unless it was invalid for some reason. Powers 14:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I will add, however, that you can request attribution. What you cannot do is require attribution, because the image no longer belongs to you; it belongs to the entirety of humanity, per your release. But you can ask nicely and hope re-users accede to your request. =) Powers 14:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) It is only acceptable to change the copyright from a restrictive one to a less restrictive one. Once you put it into the public domain it is out there for all to use for whatever purpose. It is quite clear on the upload pages what public domain is: Public domain – You give up all rights to the work and allow any person to use it for any purpose without restriction. I see that you have added a more restrictive copyright to several images you uploaded as far back as March 2009. You cannot retract a copyright you have already given but it seems acceptable that within a reasonable period of time of uploading files, you could change the licence on the recently uploaded image that you put up today, now that you have investigated copyright more and realise there are different licences that you may prefer. Sorry but you will have to leave the old images with the licence you gave them when they were upoloaded. ww2censor (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

OK... thank you both for your replies... I will change back the older ones, and remember this in the future... - Adolphus79 (talk) 14:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Am I correct about the 3.0 tagging though, that this will allow anyone, anywhere, to use it, so long as the attribute? I don't want to limit the use of the image any, I just want a little recognition... - Adolphus79 (talk) 14:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but note that CC-BY-SA is a bit more restrictive than simply CC-BY (which also requires attribution). the "SA" part requires re-users to release their work under a "free" license as well. decltype (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to go against what people above have said, but you are (legally) free to relicense a work you had put into the public domain. The only thing that will come of it is that we'll come along and say "Hmm, we have two copies of an image, one in the public domain, one CC-BY-SA. Which one do we want to keep?" and quite probably just revert you. Legally though, you can release further copies under whatever licence you want but you're in a very weak position, because we have a copy - i.e. a snapshot of the image you released into the public domain that we can keep and distribute (hence the de-facto non-revokability of our various licences). Or that's what my google searches have told me, rightly or wrongly. - Jarry1250  16:45, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that's correct; my response was limited to the context of changing the license here or on Commons, which we generally wouldn't allow. Powers 16:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

No worries, when I first uploaded them, I wanted them released to the public for anyone to do anything with... but with 3.0, I realized I could do that same thing, but not worry about someone down the road claiming the image as their own... I have changed the old images back to {{PD-self}}, and will start using {{Cc-by-sa-3.0}} for future uploads... thanks everyone for your help... - Adolphus79 (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to add an option, you can request deletion of the image that you uploaded with PD tagging, then upload again with the creative commons license. This will not revoke the earlier PD release license, just reduce the chance that it will be used. If some one uses it you will not be able to do anything about it. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Postcards with historical images

I have a postcard from France in the 1930s, with a photograph of a monument that was later unfortunately destroyed during World War II. I am unaware of any other available images of the structure, but would like to include an image of the postcard in the Misplaced Pages article that talks about the monument (The White Bird). I'm fuzzy on French copyright in this case though. Would anyone know if the image is public domain at this point, or whether there's a good case for Fair Use as it's a historical image with no free equivalent? --Elonka 22:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• In France, the copyrights of the author last for 70 years after their death. This isn't probably a huge amount of use to you, as doubt if you know who the author is. Having said that, I'd say that it would probably count as a historical non-free image if there's little chance of sourcing a free equivalent (which it sounds like there isn't). And the existing infobox image is non-free anyway, so you'd hardly be increasing the amount of non-free usage in the article. Black Kite 22:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Actually that image (and many other stamp images) were recently nominated for deletion, which confuses me because I'd thought it was a clear case for fair use. But I'll freely admit that I'm not an expert on the subtleties of image licensing... What are your own thoughts in regards to that image? --Elonka 02:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
    • I'd agree that a good case for fair use could be made. Photo may be out of copyright under the 70 year rule if the publisher is unknown. Mjroots (talk) 05:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
    • A lot of stamp images have been deleted recently because they were only being used to illustrate their subjects - however there are always exceptions to this, and I think this is one. Black Kite 06:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
      • Anyone with an opinion on the matter, is welcome to comment at the current deletion discussion: Misplaced Pages:Files_for_deletion/2009_October_7#File:L'Oiseau_Blanc_stamp.jpg. --Elonka 21:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Image question (File:Shenandoah1994.png)

Does this image have a sufficient fair-use rationale? I think that it's an acceptable fair-use, as it depicts one deceased person (out of five) and two members who are no longer with the band (particularly the lead singer). Literally all of the band's Top 40 hits were under the lineup in this picture. I would think that this would fall under "notability rest in large part on their earlier visual appearance," so I'm taking this here to make sure. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 02:42, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The FUR looks OK. The image could have been reduced in size. The deceased person could have their image cropped if this was the only one available and there was an article on him - which there isn't ! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:29, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

photograph licensing

Hi, I am working with someone to be able to use a large number of photographs on wikipedia. However, the creator (whose photos are on flickr) is uncomfortable with the provisions in the license that allow users to alter the work. He has no problems with anyone cropping, resizing, adjusting, or modifying photographs in ways that don't change what's depicted, but he doesn't want any mal-use. Is there a flickr license that would allow this? Misplaced Pages:Upload/Flickr seems to suggest no. Michael miceli (talk) 03:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. Images that restrict derivative use are not freely licenced so are not acceptable here. The free Creative Commons tags are here. ww2censor (talk) 05:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Depending on the jurisdiction you are in, the author may have extra rights outside copyright. In Australia there are moral rights. In practice there are very few maluses made, so the risk of something adverse happening is low. The ways of modification are the most common, you also get assembly into collage. The worst misuse I have seen is a mislabelling. For example I found one photo that I took of a dredging operation was being used by a newspaper as an example of pollution. It was not a copyright problem however. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Luftbild Schoenborn Gymnasium Bruchsal.jpg

Who says that in Germany aair-taken pic can not be copyrighted? That's absolutely wrong. They can and this one is! It was illegally downloaded from a website where All rights are reserved. Or my someone tell me the exact law in which is written that I am wrong --Münzberg (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

My guess is you are probably right – perhaps the uploader (who was referring to some page on the German Misplaced Pages as a source for this claim) misunderstood something in de:Misplaced Pages:Bildrechte. That page is just saying that air photography is not (i.e. no longer) restricted by special laws requiring state clearance for taking a photograph, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the photographer can claim copyright. I know of no rule why they couldn't. The tag you saw on the image page is not a standard tag endorsed by the en-wiki community; it's just something the uploader claimed, and they may well have made a simple mistake in that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:40, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

There does not seem to anything to restrict, or allow, copyright of aerial images. Additionally part of what the German page says is that there are restrictions on photography of military areas cannot be undertaken without permission. Copyright is clearly a separate issue and this particular image is improperly tagged. ww2censor (talk) 21:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bix Beiderbecke and PD on

I had thought that copyright on music in the U.S. was - to use a technically precise term - all fucked up. In checking out the Bix recordings on the Internet Archives I see "Public Domain" all over the place. Can we trust this and use these recordings? Internet Archive seems to be a pretty trustworthy organization, but thought I'd better ask first. Smallbones (talk) 22:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the Internet Archive is pretty thorough in its research of the copyright status of the works it hosts, so I think we can trust it as reliable. Beiderbecke died nearly 80 years ago, so there's certainly a decent chance that some or all of his works are in the Public Domain. -- Hux (talk) 19:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

There are two sets of copyrights involved: the copyright of the songs, and the copyright of the sound recordings. Very few sound recordings are in the public domain in the United States. Sound recordings made before Feb. 15, 1972, are covered by state common law and state statutory copyright law, both of which typically have no duration. Federal copyright law on sound recordings will not preempt state laws until 2067. Two exceptions are sound recordings made by the federal government, and sound recordings whose rights holders have intentionally dedicated them to the public domain. See: Stephen Fishman, The Public Domain (4th ed.), Nolo, 2008, p. 115–119.

Here's the law in California, home of the Misplaced Pages Foundation:

§ 980(a)(2) The author of an original work of authorship consisting of a sound recording initially fixed prior to February 15, 1972, has an exclusive ownership therein until February 15, 2047, as against all persons…

Under California law, author's ownership rights in sound recording can be assigned. In re Napster, Inc. Copyright Litigation, N.D.Cal.2002, 191 F.Supp.2d 1087, 61 U.S.P.Q.2d 1877.

So, there's a pretty decent chance that none of Bix Beiderbecke's recordings are in the public domain in the U.S.A. — Walloon (talk) 08:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

GNUGPL to public domain

This file (File:Torchlight help red.png),which is licensed as public domain, is a derivative of File:Torchlight help.png, which is licensed with GNUGPL. Can a derivative of GNUGPL be released under public domain?Smallman12q (talk) 12:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe you're right, GPL is a copyleft license so derivatives have to be under the same license. --Rat at WikiFur (talk) 18:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

There should be a bot that checks when an image is based off another...I'll put up a botreq.Smallman12q (talk) 13:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

bum bright article copyvio redux (some non copyvio work deleted)

this is regardin a discussion here last week (maybe 2 weeks ago) about the Bum Bright article being 90% copy-paste copyright violation.... so someone deleted the entire article. but there were actually one or two paragraphs about his sports dealings that were not copyvio they were ordinary work by an editor, with citations. it could have simply been made a stub. i would fix it myself but again its conflict of interest due to me being a distant blood relation. Decora (talk) 17:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, this page is for questions about copyright issues to do with media (usually images). For this issue, I advise that you post your question to the talk page of Mfield, who is the admin who deleted the "Bum Bright" article. Alternatively, you could recreate the article using only the non-copyvio text and post a note on its talk page to say that this is what you're doing, so that others realize that you're not just recreating the same deleted article. Good luck! -- Hux (talk) 19:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect CC 3.0

What is the procedure for dealing with files which have been tagged as CC 3.0, but have bold copyright labels attached. For example, File:Hellhighwater2logo copy.jpg. I tagged it per CSD, but I wasn't sure if I tagged it correctly, or if I am wrong to tag it. Thanks. Plastikspork _―Œ 20:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I tagged it {{watermarked}}. Your {{db-badfairuse}} is for non-free files, but this one (at least it is claimed) is free. —teb728 t c 05:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

flags

Would anyone mind explaining to me how the copyright status of flags works, especially flags of non-governmental political groups? It seems like wikipedia considers all flags to be public domain, even flags of non-governmental groups or movements that were created recently (e.g., File:PFLP flag smoothed.svg), which doesn't make sense to me.Prezbo (talk) 21:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I see now that this was discussed here, although it's still hard for me to believe that every flag in the world is ineligible for copyright.Prezbo (talk) 22:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

It varies. Quite a lot of flags are PD the but issue of the ones that are not is something we need to address.©Geni 01:12, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The whole thing seems really dodgy to me, I'll probably put some of these flags up for deletion at commons at some point.Prezbo (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

The issue is far from certain; even if a flag does have a copyright (like the Aboriginal flag from Australia), there are folks that will call the image PD-Simple and still keep the image on the Commons. User:Zscout370 20:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright tag for the aircraft TC-KOP

I've recently created the article 1962 Turkish Airlines Taurus Mountains crash, which is about the aircraft with tail number TC-KOP. I discovered an image of this aircraft at and asked the website's owner for permission to use the picture at en:wikipedia. A copy of our conversation is posted below, where my real name and mail address are replaced by my username:

Question: May I upload an image of the TC-KOP from that website? If yes, what copyright tag must I add and how must I credit the picture's owner? I appreciate your advise.CeeGee (talk) 14:27, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I've removed the emails assuming Eddie will not appreciate spam mail from spammers who index this page. Private email conversation shouldn't be posted on Misplaced Pages anyway and is subject to deletion.

As for the images, you shouldn't directly upload the images from a website unless it explicitly declares the images as free on the webpage. The correct way to get the permissions is to ask the copyright holder to send a consent letter clearly stating the license to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org. —SpaceFlight89 19:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright status of self-made photos of living people.

Hello, I have been having trouble finding a clear answer in regard to this question, so I thought that this would be an appropriate place to ask. If not, then I apologize.

I would like to upload photos of the members of the band Scale the Summit that I took while watching them on the Progressive Nation Tour about two months ago. I feel that they would add greatly to the article concerning the band. I would like to publish them into the public domain, however, I do not know if they would qualify. I would like to know this before I upload them so that if they can be published into the public domain I can upload them directly into the Commons. Thank you in advance for your help. Cs.Ps. (talk) 19:08, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You are right, you can release the work into public domain and the appropriate place to upload the images is commons. —SpaceFlight89 19:14, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

If theres any reason people would question the license or your ownership you can always use OTRS to strengthen the copyright status of the photos, and hes Wikimedia Commons would be the place to upload them. They don't have to be Public Domain, the Creative Commons licenses are just fine as well along with some others. — raeky  08:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I created the image myself. Why copyright needed?

Hi.

I got this message:

"Thank you for uploading File:NeutraliseIT.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Istcol (talk) 15:02, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Spillon"

1) If I created the image myself, why is copyright needed?
2) If I am meant to state something, how do I edit the copyright status of the image, I tried but couldn't find how to anywhere.

They call it an “Image copyright tag” but that’s really a misnomer. In this case it would be better called a image license tag. You got a copyright on it simply by creating it; which means that nobody can use it without your permission. What is needed is for you to say what right Misplaced Pages and everyone else have to use it. Misplaced Pages does not accept permission for use only on Misplaced Pages, insisting on permission for reuse by anyone for anything. You have several choices; the most popular are:

• {{PD-self}} to give up all your rights to it.
• {{cc-by-3.0|Attribution details}} to let anyone use it provided that they credit you for it. You replace "Attribution details" with what you want the credit to say.
• {{cc-by-sa-3.0|Attribution details}} to let anyone use it provided that they credit you for it and that they license any modified version under the same license.

You add the license tag by editing File:NeutraliseIT.jpg. —teb728 t c 23:32, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Generally if the image is somewhat questionable as for permission, we request it so we have it on file. The process is found here. — raeky  08:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

making money from GNU or GFDL

Hi,

if I republish an image, under GNU or GFDL, are others allowed to make money from it? they can in http://en.wikipedia.org/GNU_Free_Documentation_License but they's have to make the image available freely?

Thanks Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Free licenses required by Wikimedia allow commercial use, ergo yes someone can make money from your photograph by only giving you credit. GFDL isn't meant for images, it's for text based work and sometimes software. The Creative Commons licenses are the ones that are meant for photographs. — raeky  08:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

picture copyright

1. What copyright tags should I give for a picture that is taken by a friend of mine who has given permission to me? Is it correct to put {{cc-by-sa}} tag? 2. If I upload a picture that I just take/download from a website, what should I do to clear it from copyright problems/so that it doesn't become object of speedy deletion? Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoko santoso (talk • contribs) 05:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You'll need upload the file to Wikimedia Commons and have your friend send an e-mail to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org, the process is outlined commons:Commons:OTRS. That is the best way to handle it. — raeky  08:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Rich_wiki.jpeg

Last week I received the email reply below from 'permissions'....and I received confirmation on a 'talk' page that the 'deletion notice' for this image would be removed..... However, when I checked the page today the image had gone. I have uploaded it again, so could you please check that I have supplied enough information for it to remain... Thanks Sue

Original Message -----

From: "Permissions" To: Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: Re: re. image copyright —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cronk69 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear SUE WALLACE,

Thank you for your email.

09/30/2009 17:59 - wrote:

> I have been told to email that I am the copyright owner of the following image > Rich_wiki.jpg > on > http://en.wikipedia.org/Richard_Warren_(musician) > > I have amended the licensing details accordingly. > Thanks

Cronk69 (talk) 12:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I have looked at the ticket, and you did not copy the entire e-mail. Below the text you copied, there is a message from the OTRS agent. You need to specify, in your e-mail, what license you are agreeing to. In fact, it may be easiest if you filled out a consent form and mailed it in (see WP:CONSENT). Make sure you are replying to that e-mail, or that the ticket number 2009093010046424 is included in the subject line. Once we have a clear statement of permission and copyright ownership, we can easily undelete the file. If you have questions about this process, or anything else, feel free to ask. Thanks. -Andrew c  15:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

new query

I made a short video yesterday, It is a 360 degree panorama of the views visible from Win hill pike,

http://en.wikipedia.org/Win_Hill

I wish to upload this video to the above page.

I am a new user and haven'g the foggiest idea what to do.

Please can you help me upload this video.Tom3t0 (talk) 14:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

re Rich_wiki.jpeg

Sorry, I don't understand your answer.

I'd uploaded the image and emailed 'permissions' telling them I owned copyright. I received a reply from them and a message on a talk page saying that it was all ok and that the picture would not be deleted.

I found today that it had been deleted so I have uploaded it again (commons:File:Rich wiki.jpg) and put it into the article Richard Warren (musician) with a different license. Could you please check that this is now correct. Thanks very much

(I have now emailed the following to 'permissions'):

> I hereby affirm that I am the creator and/or sole owner of the exclusive > copyright of Rich_wiki.jpeg (ticket 2009093010046424) > > I agree to publish that work under the free license .Creative Commons > Attribution ShareAlike 3.0 > > I acknowledge that I grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial > product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided > that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws. > > I am aware that I always retain copyright of my work, and retain the right > to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others > make to the work will not be attributed to me. > > I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the content > may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project. > > SUE WALLACE > > CRONK69 > COPYRIGHT HOLDER > 12/10/2009

Sue Cronk69 (talk) 15:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes images get deleted before an OTRS ticket is applied to the image file but in this case the image was deleted, as a blatant copyright violation of Richard Warren's MySpace page, quite quickly as often happens with such images. You have now uploaded it to the commons under the same name but no OTRS ticket has been applied; you put in a different licence. The image source now says that it is your own work which is not confirmed by the MySpace image. Because the image now has the same name, the ticket should be applied to the commons file when it gets processed, which can take up to a week. I will tag the image as pending an OTRS request. ww2censor (talk) 16:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

So do I have to do anything else? And I don't understand the 'myspace' violation??!! It is not on a myspace page as far as I know (and I know Richard Warren does not have one!) Sue Cronk69 (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Stifle deleted this image with the summary that it was the same as a MySpace page image per this deletion summary and the notice he placed on your talk page was because there was no copyright status. There is now nothing else you need to do but wait until the OTRS permission is processed. ww2censor (talk) 16:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

But he doesn't have a Myspace page? (One of his bands does, but this image is not on that site...)Cronk69 (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

(Thanks for your help) Cronk69 (talk) 16:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

simple way to find if images can be used in print?

I've written a book. It's 95pp right now but could sure use a bunch of images to amplify points. I've looked at umpteen statements and notices and just can't get a handle on this. I surmise not all images on W.commons can be used in print, and if they can the attributions need to be in 47 formats according to the eleventeen license texts. Is there a short way I can (1) determine if I can use a particular image in print, and (2) use a common format for credits? I am the copyright holder of my book (so far). Many thanks in advance for your sage and succinct counsel on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NCMeredith (talk • contribs) 22:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

You can expect that any pictures from the Misplaced Pages commons could be used in print. See http://wikimediafoundation.org/Terms_of_Use for some of what is required. You can probably have a picture credits page where you can give the URL you got it from or the attribution that is specified. If the image is marked as public domain, cc0, or all rights released you can use it without attribution, but do not claim the copyright on it yourself. For the pictures on en.wikipedia if they have a fair use rationale, that means they are not free and you will have to consider yourself whether you can use it or not. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

reasoning behind a fair use rational

What is the reasoning behind this fair use rational?

2) It's used for a purpose that can't be fulfilled by free material (text or images, existing or to be created)

Couldn't nearly anything be created in the future as a free image? Is this the best rule for inclusion? Misplaced Pages does everything possible to insure that free images are used, and I understand, I also understand that there are certain rules for using non free images, however, this is unrealistic in my opinion. Waiting for an image that may or may not come along is irresponsible. We have a responsibility not only to the copyright holders, but to our users as well.

Specifically this is in regards to this image: File:Sarita impact.jpg. While it is true that at some point the image could be replaced by a free image, what are the chances of a image that truly meets our requirements could be found? WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an excuse, but it does prove a point, how many images are on wikipedia from press events? How many of them could not be replaced by a picture taken by a wikipedia user? How many wikipedia users are walking around hollywood or anywhere else with stars.

• There are actually a lot of free images of wrestlers on Misplaced Pages - people do get some good photos. However, even if there weren't, the fact is that this is a living public figure who it is therefore possible to take a free image of, and the image thus fails WP:NFCC#1 (replaceability). Black Kite 06:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I just took a quick look at some famous peoples articles. Majority are from press pictures, that you'll see on CNN or Access Hollywood. How many of our editors get perfect pictures on the red carpet? I understand it fails, my argument is that that rule should be changed. The criteria should be based on is there currently a free alternative available. We don't make assumptions in articles, we should do the same for pictures, dont assume a free replacement is available. Sephiroth storm (talk) 07:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, Im no copyright expert, but it seems that we are allowing people to bypass this rule anyway by allowing Flickr images on many articles, based just on looking at a few well known people, I can see promotional photos that someone has posted on Flickr, released it, and some user has uploaded here, so it can be freely used. Im not a lawyer, but if I had to guess, this wouldn't hold up in court, Thats not a legal threat, just my opinion. I dont see how this rule is helping the encyclopedia, merely hindering it. Sephiroth storm (talk) 05:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Flickr is a problem. Some of those images you mention are probably OK, but many aren't, and they don't get picked up enough. The other problem is that some of the Flickr images are on Commons, who don't do nearly enough to pick up copyvios. Oh, and this "rule"? Have a look in the top left-hand corner of the page, between "The" and "Encyclopedia" :) Black Kite 06:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Commons, who don't do nearly enough to pick up copyvios?? Mind yours own business, the problems on Misplaced Pages are much much larger from my experience ;) Regarding the Flickr problems: See commons:COM:QFI, if you have problems to trust in an image from Flickr that was transfered to a Wikimedia project you might adress the problem there. --Martin H. (talk) 10:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, that is a good page, but I doubt that many people will support deleting pictures in highly visible articles such as File:Oprah Winfrey (2004).jpg, File:Mariah Carey in August 2006 2.jpg, or File:Vince McMahon - ECW Champion.jpg. The question is, can we, or should we change the fair use rational for images, based on what I said previously. Sephiroth storm (talk) 14:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thats not true, I dont know how often it happens that an image on the mainpage of one of the various Misplaced Pages was replaced or removed and deleted. So it is the opposite, the more notable an article is the merrier someone will take a closer look at the images. In case of copyright violation it is absolutely unimportant how important the article is. Regarding the named images: The images are ok, I cant see any problems. Especially File:Oprah Winfrey (2004).jpg. You may have a look at commons:Category:Alan Light or the photostream on Flickr to see how many wounderful images Alan Light contributed to the world. I cant say something to your fair use problem, that problems not exist on Commons. --Martin H. (talk) 15:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• Sephiroth, the policy isn't going to change. If a person is living, we do not use a fair use image of the person for depiction purposes on their biographical articles here. If there's a copyright violation, it can be brought to the attention of WP:PUI, and there are instructions for how to nominate a file for deletion via that vehicle. The three images you note, I have to agree with Martin; I see no problems. All of the images are licensed under free licenses, and there's no reason to suspect any of them are thefts/re-licensing of non-free images. We only accept non-free images when a free image could not be created to serve the same purpose. We don't hold onto non-free imagery waiting for free imagery that could be created. We only hold onto non-free imagery when there's no chance of free imagery serving the same purpose (such as is the case in most cases where a person is dead). --Hammersoft (talk) 15:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I completely agree that the problems on en.wiki are worse, but there are a lot of copyvios on Commons - the problem being that they're often not picked up until they're used here, and someone says "hang on a minute...". I'm not criticising Commons editors as such, but, for example, I've speedy tagged four copyvios by the same author on Commons recently, which have been deleted - but no-one seems to want to block them . Black Kite 17:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I get it. It won't be allowed. The issue with the winfrey article is that Mr. Light TMK, is not a wikipedia editor, I have no way of knowing if he is a photographer, or that he took the picture. It appears to be something you would see from a horde of paparatzi outside her house, or wherever it was taken. Nothing against Mr. Light. Sephiroth storm (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter if he's a Misplaced Pages editor or not. He could be a disaffected Martian living in a hovel on the dark side of Mercury. If he releases his works under a free license, then we can use them here, placing them on Commons. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Extremely old ad

I'm trying to figure out exactly what I need to do to include this old Gibson advertisement. I can't precisely date the photograph, but the instrument advertised was manufactured only between 1930 and 1933, so there's only a narrow range of possible dates. I'm sure copyright has lapsed, but how do I demonstrate that?—Kww(talk) 20:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Assuming this was an American publication, if the advertisement carried no copyright notice, it entered the U.S. public domain instantly upon publication. Advertisements were not covered by the copyright of the publication in which they appeared (unless they were the publisher's own advertisements). 17 U.S.C. § 404(a) specifically excludes "advertisements inserted on behalf of persons other than the owner of copyright in the collective work" from coverage under the collective work's copyright. Federal case law:

Canfield v. Ponchatoula Times, 759 F.2d 4930

C.A.5, La., 1985

Where advertisement was inserted on behalf of automobile dealership and its new employee, and no specific copyright notice appeared directly on advertisement itself, newspaper could not protect its asserted copyright in advertisement by relying on general collective work notice of copyright printed on front page of its newspaper under masthead.

Moore Pub., Inc. v. Big Sky Marketing, Inc., 756 F.Supp. 1371

D.Idaho, 1990

Copyright notice applicable to real estate advertising magazine, which was a collective work, was not sufficient to protect whatever copyright protection publisher of magazine might enjoy in logos of real estate firms advertising in the magazine, where publisher never placed copyright notices on the separate advertisements.

Milton H. Greene Archives, Inc. v. BPI Communications, Inc., 378 F.Supp.2d 1189

C.D. Cal. S.Div., 2005

Copyright protection under the 1909 Copyright Act required copyright notice in the name of the copyright holder, not merely in the name of the publishing newspaper, magazine, or campaign book.

— Walloon (talk) 04:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I've uploaded to File:1930's Gibson bass banjo ad.jpg. I'd appreciate any help that anyone might be able to provide in keeping the licensing-nag-bots away, as none of the standard templates fits this case.—Kww(talk) 15:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

In fact, one does: Template:PD-Pre1978. — Walloon (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

West Virginia logo

The University of West Virginia "WV" logo (File:WestVirginiaMountaineers.png) appears to me to qualify under {{PD-textlogo}} and seems to have no copyright notices/claims associated with it, but User:Hammersoft has consistently disagreed and tagged this as copyrighted. If you could confirm whether this qualifies as {{PD-textlogo}} I'd appreciate it. Answer on my talkpage if possible. Thanks. BillTunell (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not just simple text, so it should be eligible for copyright. Their marketing department probably has a policy on the use of the logo, and it is possible that it is released under PD (but unlikely). Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Graeme Bartlett. This is eligible for copyright (and is also used in far too many articles at the moment). Stifle (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's not just simple text. There are artistic elements at play. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is the link to their trademark licencing. — raeky  13:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I apprecaite the link, but trademarks by nature do not need licenses. No matter what the site intimates, a non-copyrightable mark has no restrictions on use other than proper attribution of source. That's the whole point.

If the consensus is that this is not {{PD-textlogo}}, then I'll leave the image tags alone (although I disagree, and honestly, I don't think this one should even been a close call). But more fundamentally, the latent confuson of about the need for trademark licensing needs to be addressed in the policy pages, IMO. I have a proposed section on the WP:Image use policy talk page. BillTunell (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

"Mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring" are not eligible for copyright protection. See User:Elcobbola/Copyright. The "flying WV" does not meet the criteria of originality to be copyrighted and should be considered {{PD-textlogo}}, IMO. It is a trademarked logo, and should be afforded the protection of such. CrazyPaco (talk) 18:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Crazypaco (talk · contribs). The logo is merely a couple of stylized letters stacked on top of each other. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• And it is partially in that stylization that it departs from being simple text. Also, BillTunell; simply because something is trademarked does not mean it is not copyrightable. The two are not mutually exclusive. Something can be copyrighted, and not enjoy trademark protections, and something can be trademarked and not enjoy copyright protections. Items can also enjoy protections of both, or neither. Trademark and copyright rights are independent of each other. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I fully understand what you're saying, but there are no "pictorial" elements in the "WV" logo as required for copyrightability under U.S. Copyright Office's Compendium of copyright registration standards, Section 506.03. It's a mere letter/color combination. "Stylization" is not a copyrightable element under any legal standard. Likewise, "departing from a simple text" does not mean something is copyrightable -- even assuming that's true in this case. There needs to be a picture incorporated in the logo somehow. BillTunell (talk) 15:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Umm, no. Regardless, I recommend contacting WVU if you want to get this image declared as free of copyright. Enough people here disagree with it being pd-textlogo eligible. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

"Um, no." is just contradiction void of any logic.

We do not need to contact every institution's legal department every time you personally don't like that an image has been declared PD.

Bill, Paco, and Wordbuilder all have it right. This image simply isn't copyrightable. Under Eltra Corp. v. Ringer, the courts ruled: " typeface has never been considered entitled to copyright under the provisions of §5(g)" and a "Typeface" is a term defined by the House Report of the 1976 revision of the Copyright Act as "...a set of letters, numbers, or other symbolic characters...whose intrinsic utilitarian function is for use in composing text."

In this image, the letters "W" and "V" are letters and intended to be used as such. Contrast this with ASCII art or the Washington State University logo in which letters are not intended to be used explicitly as letters, but as a medium by which an artistic image is formed.

There is this apparent opinion amongst some editors that something has to be "simple text" to be PD and everything else isn't. There is nothing in the law, legal rulings, Congressional clarifications, or our policies/guidelines which states this. As such it is an opinion, not policy.

Lastly, I agree with Hammersoft that something can be trademarked, copyrighted, both copyrighted and trademarked, or neither. It is important to make such a distinction. — BQZip01 —  15:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• BQZ, I grow tired of this. Contacting the potential copyright holder isn't something that causes one to catch a mortal affliction. You say you have it right. Several of us say we have it right. You keep throwing coypright law at us, yet aren't a lawyer and we disagree with your interpretation of that law, and we're not lawyers. So, we're still at square 0. When you pass the bar in some state, and especially when you become a practicing IP attorney, let us know. Until then, your opinion is that of a lay person, just like the rest of us here. Since there's no consensus this image is free of copyright, it has to remain tagged as non-free until we prove it is free. Step 1: Contact WVU's Trademark Licensing Services. Their contact info: Trademark Licensing Services, Stewart Hall Room 302, P.O. Box 6686, Morgantown, WV 26506 304.293.8028. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I want this to remain civil. However, I am a practing IP lawyer, and I would agree with BQZ. Contacting WVU wouldn't be a bad idea necessarily, but it's unrealistic to think that anyone there would have the authority or incliniation to "declare" a particular image uncopyrighted. WVU has neither noticed the image as copyrighted, nor applied for a copyright on the image (I've done a loc.gov search). And, in any event, if contacting the mark's owner were the required procedure, there would effectively be no fair-use or public-domain images on wikipedia, whcih is obviously not the case. BillTunell (talk) 16:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Then submit your credentials to m:OTRS along with your analysis of why this is free. If in fact you are an IP lawyer, you should well know that copyright does not have to be declared to exist, and that has been the case for a long time now. Further, contacting WVU isn't out of line, and doing so wouldn't mean we wouldn't host non-free content here. Fair use exists whether WVU wants it to or not. We contact copyright holders frequently. That's why we have instructions here for doing so. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to cut this conversation off here since it is getting ugly. My arguments were presented here since this is the wikipedia encyclopedia forum, as opposed to some other wikiproject. I have no problem submitting my credentials but I do not see how the procedure at m:OTRS could possibly affect this determination. The published copyright standards are what they are. BillTunell (talk) 16:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• And subject to interpretation, which is why we have court rooms and an entire third branch of government to interpret the law. We don't operate solely on what the law says. You should know that. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• I'll add my layperson opinion to the mix, since that's all we have here. The West Virginia logo reminds me of the old Van Halen logo, and also the Weezer logo which is a take on that, and both of those are copyrighted. I believe the "wings" are a pictorial element beyond a typeface element. But what do I know, I'm not a lawyer either. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Andrew: The "VH" logo is an example of a trademarked but not copyrighted logo. Van Halen has other copyrighted marks relating to guitar design, and their album covers are a different story. But the "VH" itself is not copyrighted. See Van Halen trademrak site for an explanation. BillTunell (talk) 16:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• I appreciate your opinion Andrwsc. Do you have something that shows those logos to be non-free? File:Weezer logo.png appears to be a trademarked, free image. As for File:Van Halen logo.jpg, the flame alone makes this image copyrightable, but the basic logo appears to be just trademarked (see above post).

  1. Nothing in policy/guidelines states that we default to non-free if there is disagreement. It certainly doesn't " to remain tagged as non-free until we prove it is free." Moreover, even if you had such a policy/guideline, you have no standards by which to provide "proof", so we can never satisfy your personal requirements.
  2. "e disagree with your interpretation of that law" You disagree, but you fail to provide any rationale.
  3. My opinion is backed up by law, caselaw, Misplaced Pages policy, Misplaced Pages guidelines, and Misplaced Pages disclaimers. Hammer, your opinion is backed by what? — BQZip01 —  16:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  For the Van Halen logo, I just mean the "core" design as seen on http://www.van-halen.com/samples.html (Thanks for the link, Bill!) The two versions are pre/post the David Lee Roth/Sammy Hagar switch. The image we have on en.wiki includes more than just the plain (new) logo. For Weezer, I don't mean that Commons image (used on recent album artwork) but the "flying W" seen in the background of File:Weezer.jpg for instance. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  Ah, point taken. I see what you mean, but as was stated above, mere variations of fonts are not eligible for copyright. These "wings" are no more than a double serif, a common typeface addition. — BQZip01 —  16:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• BQZ, once again I'm going to ignore your comments. They're lather-rinse-repeats of prior arguments. If you truly want answers to these arguments, go to those prior arguments where myself and many others have explained how you are wrong. What your arguments keep boiling down to is step 1: through copyright law quotations at the problem, insist your interpretation is right. Step 2: read comments from others showing disagreement with your interpretation. Step 3: go to step 1. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Well explain it to me again, because I clearly don't get it (or just provide a link). All you are saying is "You're wrong." (even in your steps above), but you don't explain why. — BQZip01 —  16:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• It's been explained to you many times, by more than just me. I'm not interested in repeating the arguments all over again just so the next time this comes up you can say "All you are saying is I'm wrong, with nothing to back it up". I'm sick to death of these lather-rinse-repeat arguments from you. I will not be baited into it. As I said, if you truly want answers (and I'm well beyond AGF here at this point, given the huge body of arguments you've ignored) you know where to look. But you don't want answers. You just want to be right. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No, I believe I am right. I am willing to admit when I am wrong or may be wrong, but you've provided no evidence to the contrary other than your own opinion. Again, all I am asking is for clarification as to where I am wrong in anything I've said above. — BQZip01 —  18:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• I know you believe you're right. Honest, I get it. I really do. I'm just sick to death of contributing to and seeing many others contributing to efforts to show you how you are wrong, and when a similar debate comes up you throw the same arguments at it all over again, then say we're empty of support for our positions and insist we repeat all of it over again. It's tiresome, counter productive, and useless as to the point of trying to show you how you're wrong. You say you'll admit when you're wrong, but you don't. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

That statement is falls under the fallacy of a loaded question. I can either disagree and thereby give you more "evidence" that I continue this "behavior" (thereby proving your assertion) or I can agree with you that I don't admit when I'm wrong (thereby proving your assertion). It is a self-fulfilling statement, but it ignores reality and all I have to do is show that I do admit when I am wrong or make a mistake: try doing a word search for "oops" in my edit summaries. — BQZip01 —  19:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Will my saying "You're right, I'm wrong. On everything." make you happy? Is there ANYthing that I can say that you won't disagree with? For the love of God I sure as hell have no clue what it might be. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• To BillTunell, the page you reference on the VH designs does not state the VH designs are free of coypright. It states they are trademarked. That doesn't mean they are ineligible for copyright. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but why would the band actually copyright other things and not the "VH" logo, if it indeed was coopyrightable? While not determinitive, this strong evidence supporting the published standard. BillTunell (talk) 16:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• It's not evidence at all. Without a specific release of copyright from the rights holder, there is no release. Without that release, we must consider it copyrighted. This is why we have things like {{npd}} and Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission. If you want to get release of those VH logos from the copyright holder, contact licensing_administrator@van-halen.com. and get it. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, this makes no sense to me. I'm not trying to use the VH logo for anything, so there's no reason for me to contact them. And it's just not true for wikipedia purposes that "without release, we must consider it copyrighted." That would categorically eliminate all public-domain images on wikipedia. As much as that might be your agenda, it simply is not wikipedia policy.

I would like you to comment specifically about how you'd like to shorten the proposed policy on the image use policy board, if you have the time. BillTunell (talk) 18:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Without a release, we have no proof the work is free. Why do you think we have {{npd}}????? If we follow your model, where everything is free until proven not free, why bother with Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission???? Obviously someone here (and many someones) think it is important to prove release. I'm not stating something unilaterally here. As for the VH logo itself, you used the VH logo as evidence. I contradicted that evidence. Does that make sense? As to the proposal; it's your own proposal. Figure out how to shorten it. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, this has turned ugly, which I have tried to avoid. I'm not claiming that "everything is free until proven not free." But if you're going to fight against that straw man, I see no use in continuing. As I stated before, I will abide by any adminstrative determination on the "WV" logo, if and when it comes. Until then, I do not consider a lack of consensus to be determinitive one way or the other. BillTunell (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• You're saying that non-free until proven free doesn't make sense. I'm not making this up. You said it. If that's the case, it's a logical conclusion that you believe free until proven non-free. If that's not the case, just what DO you believe? Something between free and non-free until proven something between free and non-free? <confused look> The only straw man here is the one you're making. Forgive me for the windmill made from your own words. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Hammer, this is a combination of logical fallacies, Bare_assertion_fallacy and False dilemma specifically. You are making the assumption that there is a default position from which all images start. This simply isn't the case. From that, you've derived that there are two possible default positions from which to start, free or non-free, leaving one to prove that an image isn't in such a category. In reality we take all kinds of images (copyrighted, trademarked, patent images, free images with some restrictions, free images with no restrictions) and use them appropriately (or at least try to). It is up to the uploader to show that the image is under the license which they claim it is and for the Misplaced Pages community to accept/reject that claim. There is no default position within Misplaced Pages regarding images. — BQZip01 —  18:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Hammer's right. Our image policy requires not only attribution but proper licensing for an image, even if it is free. You have to have a clear statement that an image does fall into a free license to assert that it is free, otherwise, as per US Copyright law, we assume its copyrighted. An image failing to include a statement as to being free or not is removed under the assumption it is non-free. --MASEM (t) 19:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

{{PD-textlogo}} is a "clear statement that an image does fall into a free license." That tag was applied to File:WestVirginiaMountaineers.png and Hammersoft removed it. The content of this debate is not about whether or not there needs to be a clear statement accompanying the image, but whether or not the correct tag was applied. —Ute in DC (talk) 19:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. BillTunell (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Masem, what you said isn't true (caveat: see below). There are LOTS of images that were published prior to 1923. These have no accompanying information that states "This image is in the public domain", but they clearly are public domain images. Additionally, Copyright law makes no such claim that you have to have a clear statement that it is free or it is copyrighted; that simply isn't true. For things published in the present, if they are copyrightable (which is the key phrase here), I concede that what you say is true and that an automatic copyright applies, but they must be copyrightable in the first place. Many of us contend that this isn't the case for this image and many others. — BQZip01 —  19:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• And many of us contend it isn't. Therefore, we leave it non-free until we can prove it is free. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I know that this discussion is about the copyright-able nature of the image, and not so much about the copyright, but the logic of our default position of assuming non-free unless proven other still applies in that we need to consider taking the position that the boundary for the threshold of originality for whether an image is copyrightable is very fuzzy and typically only defined for specific cases in the court of law; because of that and our image policies, we need to take the position that unless the image clearly fails originality, it should be considered non-free. A logo that is plain block text is clearly unoriginal, but anything beyond this is always going to be in question due to the fuzziness of the threshold law unless asserted by another source. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No, you missed the point. One license we use is images that have fallen into PD due to their age. We accept that this is a default for images before 1923, but we still need assurance the image is dated before 1923. Without clear proof, we can't assume its PD, and thus assume non-free. --MASEM (t) 19:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Then you missed my point entirely. Copyright law doesn't say that, Misplaced Pages says it about copyrightable images and how they are treated, not those ineligible for copyright (which are, by definition, PD). Another license we use is for images that are PD due to the fact that they are not eligible for copyright in the first place. — BQZip01 —  19:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• We here can agree that something is PD by way of age, for example. It's when we disagree, such as with this logo, that we have to have proof. Even in cases of age, we need to be able to prove how old it is beyond reasonable doubt. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

We agree to it because Misplaced Pages has a concrete line (1923) that we've established because of Copyright law which states images prior to that are PD. By the same token, we have guidance on what trademarked images are ineligible for copyright and which ones are copyrighted. You have provided no rationale against any of the above arguments other than "no, that's not right." This isn't a logical argument, it's just contradiction. Your desire to insert additional requirements in this process is not part of this guidance and is disruptive. — BQZip01 —  20:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Sigh. As I said before, I will not be baited into this bullshit argument of "You have provided no rationale.." You've been shown multiple times why you are wrong. You disagree. Every time we have a similar debate, you trot out your old arguments again, insisting they are right until proven wrong, but never believe for a second that you could possibly be wrong and insist that everyone play your little game of refuting your argument again, only to have you do this all over again. You want to talk about disruptive? Look at yourself. This behavior of yours is utterly despicable. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of which arguments you two have had before, you need to articulate it again. Many of us were not party to those previous conversations. It may be frustrating that you have to repeat yourself, but it is necessary to reach consensus. We are trying to determine if this image is subject to copyright protection. You need to articulate why this image is copyrightable. I have yet to see an argument from you as to what the "artistic elements at play" in this image are, that arise to more than text and color. —Ute in DC (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• I refuse to be continually baited into these bullshit arguments. Over and over and over again, BQZ uses the tactic of throwing just as much shit at the wall as he can in the hopes that in a new similar argument, something sticks this time. Whether it sticks or not, it still stinks. He knows damn well what the rejections of his stances are, yet demands over and over and over again that people refute him. It's a stupid, silly game, and I won't be party to it anymore. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The "wings" are slab serifs, a standard typographical feature. — BQZip01 —  21:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with BillTunell. As he has demonstrated, this image is not a copyrighted image. Nor is it eligible for copyright protection as is a mere variations of typographic lettering and coloring. It is a trademarked image and {{PD-textlogo}} is the correct tag. —Ute in DC (talk) 18:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Proof

What kind of proof do you want that could possibly show this image (or any other image) is ineligible for copyright? — BQZip01 —  20:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Since this image was made post 1976, a release statement from the copyright holder. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  1. That assumes that it was copyrighted and no longer is. If it isn't copyrighted, then you'll never get such a statement.
  2. There is no policy or guideline which states this as a requirement. If you want to create such a requirement, please do so. — BQZip01 —  20:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Since 1976, copyrights do not have to be registered. And kindly cut the crap with <parrot>"There's no policy or guideline..." blah blah blah. Enough of the wikilawyering bullshit. You asked a question. I answered it. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:IUP Always tag your image with one of the image copyright tags. When in doubt, do not upload copyrighted images. --MASEM (t) 20:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

This image was tagged appropriately: . — BQZip01 —  20:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

photo i took of an art exhibition

Hi I took a photo of an art exhibition in the United States. I'd like to upload the photo for the article in wikipedia about the this artist. Do I need permission from the artist or the art gallery (The Met museum, New York)? Thanks. Teine Savaii (talk) 12:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Generally, yes. If the art is in the public domain, then it's possible it may not, but if it's not in the PD then you'd need permission from the copyright holder, which may or may not be the art gallery. — raeky  13:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Who is the artist? Ty 13:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Not the gallery, maybe the artist. Stifle (talk) 14:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless the gallery is the copyright holder, which is possible. — raeky  14:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys. The artist is Shigeyuki Kihara, I created the page on them. I took the photo of the exhibition at The Met (no people in shot) - later the artist asked me if they could borrow it for a website about their work at the Smithsonian institute, which I said yes to, so I guess they should be ok with me using it for wiki. Its just the question of The Met venue & photos of artist's work that I'm unclear about. Thanks heaps for the feedback too. Mmmm...what do you guys reckon?Teine Savaii (talk) 05:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Shigeyuki Kihara contemporary artist so his work is not in the public domain, you could not use his photographs on wikipedia without explicit copyright release by the copyright holder (likely is Shigeyuki Kihara). — raeky  16:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Colesseum Photo

I have taken a picture from inside the Colesseum which I think it might look good on your page, what is the procedure? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.48.155.116 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Upload it to Wikimedia Commons then either boldly add it to the article yourself or discuss its addition on the article's talk page. — raeky  14:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Extent of non-free usage

Do we have any current consensus on the number of articles for which a fair-use rationale can be validly applied? I'm looking at File:FloridaGators.png, and it seems rather excessive, and contrary to the spirit of WP:NFCC policy. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Good find. US college football team logos have been discussed quite a bit in the past. There has been some disputes, but I think we can all agree that the use of this non-free logo is excessive. I think it's pretty uncontroversial at this point for each individual season article to NOT use the non-free logo. I'd recommend replacing most of these instances with the free "Gators" text logo File:Script ``Gators``.png, or a similar PD-ineligable text-logo. This way, the article is still illustrated, but we are more inline with our non-free content policy. -Andrew c  21:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• I don't know that it is non-controversial. There were massive, massive debates over this back last December, extending to February. Everything that was tried failed to reach any cooperative conclusion, with only arbitration left as an option. To Andrwsc, according to WP:NFCC #10c, we need a rationale for each use of the item. Thus, if it's used 170,000 times, we need 170,000 rationales. I don't think the writers of that policy anticipated people attempting to use a fair use item so many times. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  That's what I'm getting at. I think we need to be clearer in NFCC about the number of allowable FURs per image. Ideally, "1" would be the best answer for the project, but I've seen instances where 2 or 3 can be justified. But not dozens! (or 170,000 ;) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 15:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• I think the number of times an image is used is less important than strictly and clearly defining how they are to be used. As Hammer mentioned, there are still unresolved issues and WP:NFCC isn't entirely clear. If those can be cleared up, then we can stop future problems like these. — BQZip01 —  16:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  WP:NFC#3a used to say that an image use should be minimal across both articles and Misplaced Pages-wide, but the language was removed in belief that it was clear that "minimal use" applied to both articles and Misplaced Pages-wide space. However, people have taken the lack of a clear statement in that as it now exists to presume that only image use in article space needs to be minimal, not across all WP. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

  Well, the arguments will NEVER end unless we either (a) get rid of non-free images entirely (a la the German wikipedia) or (b) allow fair use images as much as possible under law. Though, in the latter cases the arguments will then end up in court. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

1. The arguments will never end because there will always be someone who has questions, is ignorant on the subject, makes a mistake, doesn't understand Misplaced Pages, doesn't understand the law, etc. It is human nature.
2. Even Misplaced Pages's attorneys state that there is no chance of us getting sued even if we use non-free images all over the place. We have NFCC to keep us away from the edge though. — BQZip01 —  20:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I do have a question though that I'm curious if it was discussed previously. How would you balanced a goal of minimal used across the entirety of the Misplaced Pages project with the idea that each Misplaced Pages article is to have sufficient notability and is to be, ideally, self-contained and stand on its own? Can one assume that the reader of any particular article is on-line and has access to wikipedia.org? For example, an article can be printed out, be part of a Wikibook, and/or may have been included as a limited selection of articles on a CD/DVD-Rom. It would seem that printed and off-line versions must be assumed to exist based on the many provisions in various guidelines and the manual of style that are set up specifically to allow readibility when printed. How does the idea of "article independence" impact a desire by some to limit non-free images across the entire Misplaced Pages project? CrazyPaco (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the question of whether this usage is excessive, the logo seems to be of no contextual significance in most of those articles (per NFCC 8). There's no need for the logo in an article about the composition of some school's sports team in a particular year—that's just using the logo as decoration. In other words, it is relevant, but it does not "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic" for those articles. It would seem, however, to be legitimate in the main articles about the University and the University's athletic department. TheFeds 20:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't necessarily want to veer off topic, but this also gets into the question of what the purpose is of logos in an infobox. It was my understanding they are present for the purposes of identifying the topic of the articles. If this is the case, the do serve an informative purpose in helping to identify the institution and/or team. I am also assuming there will be readers who may not be completely familiar with college athletics in the United States. For example, how many people do you know choose NCAA tournament picks based on the mascot or logo of the team? I know quite a few, and unfortunately, they sometime do better than me in these tournament pools. Such individuals may better recognize the topic of an article if say, it was about Michigan State as opposed to Michigan, based on the logo of the institution. I therefore believe they do serve important identifying, and thus informational, purposes. In addition, it seems that the goal of Misplaced Pages is that each article is to stand on its own and have its own notability (see my post above), which would appear to be somewhat in conflict with the idea of restricting logo use in one article because it appears in another. CrazyPaco (talk) 21:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

As ever, use of the logos in articles about the teams is probably OK; elsewhere is probably not. Stifle (talk) 10:03, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Vlad Tepes 002.jpg taken from a book cover

The "Permission" section of File:Vlad Tepes 002.jpg bares the claim that "This is a faithful photographic reproduction of an original two-dimensional work of art. The work of art itself is in the public domain..."

I have no quarrel with the second claim – according to historians, the portrait was indeed painted in the later half of the sixteenth century. I do have a serious concern about permission to use this particular image, as it is not in fact "a faithful photographic reproduction" of the painting in question, since it has been cropped. More importantly, I have seen this cropping – and color balance – before. After a trip to the bookshelf, I compared the image on File:Vlad Tepes 002.jpg with the photograph of this painting that appears on the cover of Florescu and McNally's Dracula: Prince of Many Faces(copyright 1989 by the authors, published by Little, Brown and Company, ISBN 0-316-28655-9 (hc), ISBN 0-316-28656-7 (pb)).

Although the two are mirror images of one another, they are indeed identical in all other respects. It seems that someone made a high resolution scan of the image from the book's cover, and then the image was digitally reversed back to the orientation of the original painting.

I do not know what the legalities of this are here, but does this seem like copyright infringement to anyone else? BlueCerinthe (talk) 05:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't be a problem – if the original painting is PD, and according to US rules photographs of it also remain PD, then merely cropping such a photograph and printing it on a book cover doesn't create a new copyright for the cropped version. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! :) Actually, this is a relief to me, since I prefer this cropped and color-corrected version. Also, as it happens, it is the image used on the main article about the subject of that painting.BlueCerinthe (talk) 05:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Image of poster

I found File:District-9_advertising_Canterbury_Tail_25_June_2009.jpg‎ in the District 9 article, and noticed that it had been released under CC-BY-SA. I had some niggling doubts about its copyright status, since it is basically just an image of a poster, but deferred to the judgement of the uploader, and the fact that it is somewhat widely used here. However, when I uploaded a slightly modified version to commons, File:District-9_advertising.jpg, it was drive-by tagged for speedy deletion. Naturally, if that image is deemed to be a copyright violation, then so is the other. I was hoping someone here could provide an explanation why this is not a copyright violation. Thanks, decltype (talk) 08:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I have the same question about File:Starsuckers.jpg, a poster for UK film Starsuckers. Rd232 09:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Good questions. As the original author of the D9 image I'd like to know the answer. I took the photo of something freely visible in the streets, however that's where it gets murky. Obviously I at that pointed owned the copyright of the photo as an entity, however the content of the photo is it in such a state of copyright that I can't take a photo of it? Is it any different to people taking photos of products and posting them? If it came to that then a lot of photos need to be removed. Canterbury Tail talk 11:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. It is a derivative work and thus non-free, but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be used - it can, if it passes all the criteria in WP:NFCC. Photos of products are slightly different, it depends on the product. Black Kite 12:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've changed File:Starsuckers.jpg to a non-free license, and asked the uploader to send in OTRS or link to the license information on the official website. Hopefully this addresses the concerns on that image. -Andrew c  21:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Which of course rules out it being displayed on userpages and in userboxes, which it currently is. Hopefully its use to illustrate the viral marketing of the film can be NFCC-justified. decltype (talk) 10:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Photos from Ladakh, India

I bought a few very fine B&W photos taken in Ladakh (a couple of them hand-tinted) in 1981 from an elderly Kashmiri photographer living at that time in Leh, Ladakh. I gather he has since passed away - but I have no idea exactly when. When I bought them from him I was thinking of writing an article and using the photos in it - I mentioned this to him and he seemed very happy with the idea (of course, I said I would give him proper credit for the photos as I always do). However, I never got this in writing - nor did I write the article. I myself am now not that young (and not that well physically) and I would like to make them available in the public domain while I still can. I would like to upload them to Wikimedia Commons and use them in appropriate articles, if possible, so others can enjoy them too (and make it a requirement that they remain properly attributed). However, I have no idea what the laws are that might apply to them. Can you please tell me if this is possible - or, if not, what I might do to make sure they will be available in public when any copyright restrictions might run out? Many thanks in advance, John Hill (talk) 13:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, these images are effectively in a copyrighted state for many decades into the future at least. We don't have access to a specific release from the photographer or his estate that releases the images under a free license. Permission to use, with credit given, is not acceptable on Misplaced Pages. We accept images either as non-free or free, not permission to use here. What appears in the images? Sorry about your failing health :( --Hammersoft (talk) 14:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

• When you "bought" the photographs, were you just buying the copies, or additionally the right to reproduce them, or additionally the copyright itself? This depends on how your conversation went...if he sold the right to reprint only in those articles, then any use beyond that would be up to his heirs. But if he sold you all rights to use the photographs as you desire (and you only suggested as an aside that you would publish an article and credit him), then you would seem to own the copyright outright.

  Also, in India, there is a procedure for licencing certain works by petition to the Copyright Office: "Where, in the case of an Indian work referred to in sub-clause (iii) of clause (a) of section 2 , the author is dead or unknown or cannot be traced, or the owner of the copyright in such work cannot be found, any person may apply to the Copyright Board for a licence to publish such work or a translation thereof in any language." (See Section 31A of the Indian Copyright Act, 1957, and the Copyright Office website.) You'd have to clarify with the Copyright Office if they would allow it to be published as (for example) CC-BY-SA-3.0, or if they require that their own licence terms be used. Maybe there's an Indian Misplaced Pages user who might be able to assist with the administrative details? (This could involve publishing a notice in an English-language Indian newspaper, and paying a fee.) TheFeds 19:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you both for the detailed and very helpful information. I am in the process of composing a letter to the Registrar of Copyrights in New Delhi to ask him if there is any way the photos can be released and how I might go about getting written permission from the appropriate authority. Many thanks again for your generous help, John Hill (talk) 02:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

File appears to violate copyright

http://en.wikipedia.org/File:AverageIQ-Map-World.png

I don't know what to do with this except delete it from the public page where it appeared and bring it here. It was taken from a book, uploaded to this link, and the rights given away. Skywriter (talk) 00:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a scan so in what way is is taken from a book?©Geni 00:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Sanity check: File:Wizard101 Logo.jpg

Hello,

Could I get a review of the use rationale on the above? Thanks in advance. MLauba (talk) 08:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. Stifle (talk) 09:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Logo in userbox?

Hi there, I'm just wondering whether I can use this image as a part of a userbox, providing the resolution is extremely low (30px)?

Thanks. JustinSavidge (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

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