| Revision as of 22:03, 25 October 2009 editJamieS93 (talk | contribs)17,561 edits archive box fmt← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:15, 26 October 2009 edit undoLar (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators29,172 edits →Default to delete for BLPs: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| ::Thanks to both of you. I just read some of the ] and it looks to me that my user talk pages from years back meet the requirements. It's going to be awkward to make the request, but eventually I have to. ] (]) 05:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC) | ::Thanks to both of you. I just read some of the ] and it looks to me that my user talk pages from years back meet the requirements. It's going to be awkward to make the request, but eventually I have to. ] (]) 05:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
| ::Whoops. Definitely misread that. ] (]) 06:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC) | ::Whoops. Definitely misread that. ] (]) 06:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
| == Default to delete for BLPs == | |||
| Jake Wartenburg, rightly in my view, made to codify what is becoming accepted practice... that a BLP that has no consensus defaults to delete, or at least that the admin has the option of so closing it. Chillum reverted it . I've , and am now here on the talk to discuss it. Policy is descriptive, for the most part, it describes what we do, and it sometimes lags practice. This is one of those cases. Also, please be informed by in which he is pretty strongly saying that marginals should go. Being kind is more important than having every marginal BLP that no dead tree encyclopedia would have. I invite support for this view. ++]: ]/] 02:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Is it okay for a nominator of an AFD to !vote and nominate?
I recently challenged a AFD nominator because they had expressed their opinion in the nomination itself and during the discussion added a !vote for deletion with a slightly different argument. Is there part of the policy that covers this behaviour so I can formally clarify if it is okay or not?—Ash (talk) 19:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- There's no reason why any person cannot continue to argue for whichever outcome they like. It is generally improper to place multiple "!votes", though, and if a person makes multiple bolded "keep" or "delete" (or other) comments, you may strike ones after the first. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:10, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- So the nomination itself doesn't count as a "!vote"?—Ash (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- A nomination is like any other opinion, it should be "counted" once only and given a weight based on the quality of the arguments as they relate to relevant policy. Chillum 20:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- It is my understanding is that the summary required in a deletion template is exactly that: a summary, ie a concise description of why the nomination has been put forth. The person making the nomination is allowed to expand and justify that nomination, and the proper place for this expansion is in the body of the discussion, not in the summary. Also, it is my understanding that discussion pages are set up to discuss the issue and reach a consensus, not to hold an election and get a majority ruling. Limiting any editor to a single comment is not a discussion, and prohibiting the person putting forth the nomination from making any contribution other than the nomination itself would be censorship. TechBear (talk) 21:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It's fine. Some people do it because they aren't aware of the unspoken convention that the nomination represents a 'vote' unless explicitly stated otherwise. I don't think formal clarification is necessary. There are too many provisos and what not in this policy anyway, to say nothing of deletion process, AfD, AADD, and so forth. The only time someone needs to step in and say something is if an editor is 'voting' in a fashion that might confuse the closing admin (multiple bolded votes, repeated statement of the nomination text, etc.). Protonk (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Renaming of multiple categories, including one or more stub categories
Please express your opinion at Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion discussions#Renaming of multiple categories, including one or more stub categories. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:31, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Proposal
MilbornOne posted an opinion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aviation/Notability#Comment that articles should not be PRODded or nominated at AfD within 48 hours of creation. He was talking specifically about new articles on aircraft accidents. I see no reason why this should not extend to all articles. I fully agree that this would be a good idea. It gives those editors who do not follow the practice of creating articles in a sandbox the time to work on the article. An editor who finds a new article with problems can always raise the issue politely on the talk page of the creator. This proposal would not prevent an article being listed at CSD or prevent articles from being speedied where that is appropriate.
Therefore I'd like to ask what the consensus is for this proposal:-
{{PROD}} and {{AfD}} may not be placed on an article within 48 hours of the creation of the article. Mjroots (talk) 10:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Support Mjroots (talk) 10:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose - The processes for saying 'hangon' or discussing at length in an AFD are pretty straightforward. If someone raises, for example, an obvious content fork then discussing this in an AFD shortly after creation seems entirely appropriate. The creator has plenty of time to discuss the matter and always has the option of using the {{construction}} in order to encourage discussion on the article talk page.—Ash (talk) 10:36, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. There are plenty of new pages that don't fit in the CSD categories, but where some searching shows that they don't fit in Misplaced Pages either. If these can't be prod'ded or AfD'ed in the first 48 hours, yo uare making the work of the new page patrollers much harder, since you need to separate CSD patrol (immediate, for attacks and so on) from prod/afD patrol (looking only at pages that are at least two days old). Now, a New Page Patroller can do both (and much more) at the same time. Some of these may be considered speedyable or otherwise solvable, but why would we not prod things like Leeds/draft, Compiling environment, Desk sockets (already prodded), Victor Antonio Torres (speedy A7?), On the Ball (TV show), ... Fram (talk) 10:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose in addition to the comments above, this would probably make it harder for the creator to contest the deletion. If the creator writes the article they might not log back in for weeks or months, so if the prod tag is placed 48 hours after creation they'll never see it. On the other hand if the tag is placed not long after the article is created they are much more likely to be around and to contest the deletion. Hut 8.5 11:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose As Fram said, there are plenty of articles that have no place in the encyclopedia that aren't speediable. If you eliminate prod as an option for pages that clearly have no encyclopedic potential, people will tag them with IAR speedies, either making CSD an insane asylum or wasting lots of gnome time while people remove the CSD tags, put it on a list to be prodded in two days, then prod the thing. If editors are tagging articles for deletion without following WP:BEFORE, call them out on it. They'll either start following WP:BEFORE or get so sick of the "you have new messages" bar that they won't prod at all. (This goes for CSD, prod and AfD.)--Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Support Great idea which if adopted will make the encylopedia more welcoming to new users, and encourage creativity. If an article doesnt qualify for CSD, it can wait two extra days before entering the non urgent deletion streams. Come on deletionists, you know they taste better if you give them a chance to grow! FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Somehow I'm not anxious to encourage creativity like "Foofraz is a great drinking game that's been played in my dorm for the last three years." There's no speedy category for this, and when my gsearch turns up 6 blog hits and nothing else, you want me to wait two more days before starting the prod/afd cycle, which will still take a minimum of 7 more days? How on earth is two more days going to make this into an encyclopedic article? And if it would, why not just make prod 9 days (remembering that not so long ago we added two days to prod and AfD ). --Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please note that I have proposed this before, (here) with...err...resounding opposition in response. Protonk (talk) 16:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- String support - if thwe article isn't covered by speedy deletion, give it a chance before requesting to have it deleted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- As I said last year when Protonk proposed it, oppose for PROD, as PROD is (ideally) for uncontroversial deletions as is, and it seems pointless to add an extra two days to it. Meh for AfD, as the likelihood that adding two more days to the process is going to result in much improvement to the article that wouldn't already happen in a week is low. So, I kinda' oppose it to avoid being WP:CREEPy, but there isn't much other reason for me to oppose. Cheers. lifebaka++ 18:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, it was almost exactly a year ago, eh? I didn't even notice that. Protonk (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
- Comment the original suggestion I made was related to aviation accidents when a high number of edits can be made related to a news event. These tend to be AfD or Prodded quickly before they have a chance to establish notability. This can end up with long discussions at AfD about not news etc while a wait of a few days could establish notability when events had settled. I understand the comments about enough time in the AfD process for the article to establish notability but these AfDs can attract a large number of opinions because of the current event interest. MilborneOne (talk) 19:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
- support in principle but there need to be exceptions, for there are articles that do not fit into speedy policy but are appropriate for snow deletes after a few opinions have been collected. And , like Fram and Papyrus and Lifebaka said, I don't really see a great problem with prod, for they will always be around for 7 days in any case, and anyone can remove the prod when they disagree with it. But as for AfD, the main problem is the one Hut raised, of notifying the creator. We could add a layer of notices to handle it, such as my "I advise you to fix this very quickly, before the article gets nominated for deletion by a regular deletion process, " but we don't want to complicate things too far. DGG ( talk ) 00:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, a new article that is unsuitable for the encyclopedia (but not speedyable) needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, not allowed to be swept away by the stream and forgotten about. --Stormie (talk) 02:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, 48 hours is much too long to wait. Especially considering a prod already gives it 7 days anyway. I tend to adhere to an Immediatist philosophy, where "any detracting quality (such as being ill-formatted or containing less than satisfactory material) should be remedied as soon as possible" and that a newly-created article should be as complete as possible BEFORE putting it in the mainspace.. because I care about Misplaced Pages's image, and when I picture a troll bragging to his buddies that his joke article is "STILL up after TWO days man! Lulz!" I can see how it would detract from the professional image of Misplaced Pages's administrators, about whom it may be said that they're not doing their job properly by deleting that crap ASAP, but also the professionalism of Misplaced Pages as a whole. -- œ 05:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. Any required improvement can still happen during the AfD/PROD period, and is indeed often more likely to be triggered by an appropriate deletion request. Sandstein 05:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. Among other reasons, an article being a WP:HOAX is not a reason for speedy deletion, unless it's also WP:NONSENSE, but there is no reason to delay the removal. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Blatant hoaxes can be speedily deleted. Fences&Windows 21:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- Comment. Whatever we do has to take the work force and work flows into account. Even if it's a good idea in principle, if the effect is that the taggers don't take any action two days later, then it won't work. - Dank (push to talk) 02:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. There are overzealous deletionists at NPP and AfD, but we shouldn't snarl up the deletion process with this proposal because of them. A prod can be removed by anyone for any reason (other than serial pointy or disruptive removals), so there is no good reason to delay it. All editors should follow WP:BEFORE, but is making someone intent on deleting an article wait two days likely to make them any more diligent in this? I doubt it. A greater problem with deletion is speedily deleting works in progress without giving the editor any real notice or chance to improve the article. Fences&Windows 21:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose Many, many new articles clearly qualify for deletion by prod or AFD. There is absolutely no reason to need to be forced to wait two days to tag non-notable, etc. articles that aren't CSD. Both prod and AFD still allow for seven days to object or improve. A forced delay will only allow unnecessary articles to stay on WP longer or forever. Reywas92 21:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose Hard limits do not work well when discretion is needed. Some articles need to be dealt with right away. While this may be discouraging to new users, the encyclopedia and the quality of its content is our first priority. By the time an article is 48 hours old the amount of attention it is getting has drastically reduced, it has a chance of being forgotten and just sitting there forever. Chillum 21:59, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose, complete nonsenses. As others have already noted, if the article clearly qualifies for deletion, but not speedy deletion, then no reason at all to force a 2 day wait. There are many hoax and other inappropriate articles that can NOT be speedied (by nature of the "blatant" part), and should be tagged immediately. Both Afd and Prod allow sufficient time to show any notability of the article is tagged for that reason. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose if for nothing else but that it's unworkable. People don't operate on a two-days-later schedule. It will result in far fewer articles that should receive a prod or AfD, not getting them.--162.84.136.254 (talk) 04:20, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose—as other editors here have noted, there are many articles which should clear be deleted but aren't eligible for CSD. A good example is many band articles tagged for A7 but don't satisfy A7 because they released a studio album and have additional assertions of notability. Many administrators still cheat the process by deleting these articles, but their number would reach somewhere around 100% if this proposal was implemented. No one wants to try to help out at CSD and then realize they need to do more work just for a number of bad articles that should be deleted anyway. —Ynhockey 11:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose - I see no reason to exempt new articles from our policies. This also includes the pseudopolicy that surmountable problems are best fixed by editing. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose MilborneOne's argument is valid and I understand his point. Perhaps we could make an exception for current events of this kind. Otherwise I think any editor can improve the article with {{PROD}} or {{AfD}} template. The templates aren't "biting", they inform about the rules of our project and other people's opinions in a standard way. This is an encyclopedia, not a kindergarten. No need to complicate things, in my opinion. --Vejvančický (talk) 19:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
- Comment Clearly the consensus is not in favour of the proposal. My thanks to all who commented on the proposal. Maybe a bit more discretion would be a better way of avoiding PRODs and AfDs on recent-event related articles. IMHO, all editors should be enouraged to make use of a personal sandbox to perfect articles before releasing them into mainspace, rather than creating unfinished articles and then working on them when they are "live".Mjroots (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not at all. That's perverse. NPPs shouldn't be deleting articles with potential. This is a wiki, people should be creating articles like this or this without having to go through some strange migration process. Protonk (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, what's perverse is linking to examples of new articles from 2001 and 2005. The more Misplaced Pages grows, the more obscure the topic of the average new article - and hence the more necessary that a new article reaches certain minimum standards of sourcing and content which enables others to understand and expand it. Over time that makes it more and more advantageous to do a draft "paddling pool" stage first, before being thrown into the deep end of the swimming pool. Rd232 07:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's not really a feature of growth and the relative obscurity of uncreated and newly created articles doesn't play a big role. Much more powerful is the notion that wikipedia has "grown up" and will be a proper place for articles rather than a freewheeling environment for editing and collaboration. Protonk (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well that's your view, I disagree. Rd232 10:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's not really a feature of growth and the relative obscurity of uncreated and newly created articles doesn't play a big role. Much more powerful is the notion that wikipedia has "grown up" and will be a proper place for articles rather than a freewheeling environment for editing and collaboration. Protonk (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Your first one makes a clear assertion of notability and wouldn't be deleted anyway. And the second probably should have been a section in Byzantine Empire (which at the time looked like this) rather than a standalone article, until it had some more content. Neither really demonstrate a problem with the current system which would be helped by this proposal. --Stormie (talk) 10:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't say that they would. My point is that we are moving toward a set of expectations for articles that they should more like DYK material than 1-2 sentence unwikified stubs before they are created. And that in doing so we are placing an implicit barrier to entry. The point was raised in response to mjroot's reasoning for withdrawing the procedure, not in support of it. I proposed an almost identical policy last year, but I'm less sure of the merits today, hence why I didn't offer a support or opposing view. Protonk (talk) 18:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, what's perverse is linking to examples of new articles from 2001 and 2005. The more Misplaced Pages grows, the more obscure the topic of the average new article - and hence the more necessary that a new article reaches certain minimum standards of sourcing and content which enables others to understand and expand it. Over time that makes it more and more advantageous to do a draft "paddling pool" stage first, before being thrown into the deep end of the swimming pool. Rd232 07:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not at all. That's perverse. NPPs shouldn't be deleting articles with potential. This is a wiki, people should be creating articles like this or this without having to go through some strange migration process. Protonk (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why Mjroots was wrong in his proposal and wrong in his withdrawal rationale. My experience with this article convinced me that prodding articles quickly is necessary if the New Page Patrollers are ever going to make any headway, and at the same time it pushes the article creators to improve their article quickly, rather than allow it to lay around as a two-sentence stub for months. But I also disagree with those who argue that everyone should create articles in their sandbox before displaying them. With the same article mentioned above, I had contributors expanding it more quickly than I was able; those helping editors may well have been more inspired to contribute to a nearly blank canvass than they would have to a fully-fabricated article. Just my 2¢. Unschool 05:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose Allowing people to work on an article before it gets deleted is a bad idea, as they will feel very disappointed. It is much better to delete it from the start, before there is too much emotional involvement. SyG (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Review of the review section
Now that WP:REFUND is up and running, I think the Deletion review section of the policy needs revising to make it clear in which cases WP:DRV should be used instead. We need to clarify what sort of deletions can be overturned under what circumstances, how deletions can be challenged and when they need to be discussed with the deleting admin and/or in a forum open to community discussion. Speaking to administrators recently it seems best practices are unclear or ill-understood. Skomorokh, barbarian 07:07, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've added a description of the REFUND process in this edit, with some content taken from the Deletion review section. I wasn't sure if REFUND/undeletion should be its own subsection or part of the Deletion review subsection, so I went half-way and made it a subsection of Deletion review. Review, suggestions, comments welcome. Skomorokh, barbarian 07:41, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- As a starting point for people, I tried to start a discussion on scope of WP:REFUND and best practices at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_undeletion#Scope_and_best_practices, but not much discussion was generated. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Deleting from the database
If there are some deleted User talk pages from years back that I want deleted from the database as well, what steps can I take to ask for those deleted user talk pages (which were deleted by Administrators in 2006 & 2007 and the decision to delete those talk pages was agreed upon, even by me) to be deleted from the database as well? 76.208.168.46 (talk) 05:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Without knowing which pages you are talking about, I can't answer specifically. Try WP:REFUND or asking an admin in Category:Misplaced Pages administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles. REFUND is faster, given that you supply wikilinks to the pages in question. keep in mind that the answer may be "no". Protonk (talk) 05:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Umm, Protonk, he wants the deleted revisions removed. That can only be done by an WP:Oversighter and can be requested at WP:RFO, however, the requirements for it being done are very strict and it is unlikely that they would do it for a normal user talk page. MBisanz 05:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks to both of you. I just read some of the WP:RFO and it looks to me that my user talk pages from years back meet the requirements. It's going to be awkward to make the request, but eventually I have to. 76.208.168.46 (talk) 05:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whoops. Definitely misread that. Protonk (talk) 06:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Default to delete for BLPs
Jake Wartenburg, rightly in my view, made this edit to codify what is becoming accepted practice... that a BLP that has no consensus defaults to delete, or at least that the admin has the option of so closing it. Chillum reverted it here. I've put it back, and am now here on the talk to discuss it. Policy is descriptive, for the most part, it describes what we do, and it sometimes lags practice. This is one of those cases. Also, please be informed by this edit of Jimbo Wales in which he is pretty strongly saying that marginals should go. Being kind is more important than having every marginal BLP that no dead tree encyclopedia would have. I invite support for this view. ++Lar: t/c 02:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)