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Revision as of 06:06, 28 October 2009

Well, at least as soon as that can be arranged. Don't worry, it won't be long.

Hmm

Noroton, you and I have edited cordially together in the past - although its been some time. Even so, it may be presuming too much to offer my opinion, but... Just in case, here it is. I think that you may have misread the general thrust of the arbitrators conclusion on the Sandstein/CoM/Law incident. The connection between the statements made by non-arbitrators on the requests page and the comments from arbitrators is usually quite tenuous, if there is any at all. In this case, I think the core issue they've been addressing has been the propriety of unblocking someone who had been blocked pursuant to an arbitration remedy -- particularly without prior discussion. We can debate the merits of Sandstein's block, and I think there are some real questions about what the best course of action there might have been, but the situation is far more clear (to me, and to most) when it comes to Law's unblock. I hope frustration from this incident, and the atmosphere on political articles in general, doesn't push you away from Misplaced Pages for good. Nathan 07:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Not that clear. There was plenty of support for the unblock, even on the AC page. Most? Not even. It's so taboo to undo another user's block that you'd rather see a user stay blocked until it can be sorted out. Fail. Law _{type! snype?} 23:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm familiar with your opinion on the subject, not least because you actually performed the unblock. I'm not sure I see leaving someone blocked long enough to have a discussion as the sort of injustice you apparently believe it to be. The ensuing drama and comments from others should at least suggest to you that perhaps your decision may not have been flawless. Nathan 03:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, Nathan. Sorry it took so long to reply. My point at the ArbCom page is that Sandstein's block looks worse when you look at the overall situation on that page. That's worth ArbCom's attention, and it's a more important problem than whether one admin should be reverting another admin (I don't know or really care about the niceties of that, although I like Law's point about see a user stay blocked until it can be sorted out.). The solution is for admins and ArbCom to monitor both sides of ongoing POV conflicts. No one was doing that. Hypocritical enforcement resulted. Epic fail. You're focusing too narrowly, and it's part of the problem here. -- Noroton (talk) 01:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, you've argued that they (in this case) are both focusing too narrowly on the wheel war problem and supporting the uneven enforcement of policy. In this situation, I think those positions are mutually exclusive - they aren't dealing with the substantive enforcement issue at all, because a discussion of the merits of the block was basically preempted by Law's unilateral decision. Nathan 03:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand how what I'm saying is mutually exclusive. They can refocus the scope of a case at will. Everybody on that page can recognize the massive failure I'm pointing out, and you should acknowledge it, too. -- Noroton (talk) 05:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Bitching

The arbcom page is not the best place to post "bitching". In fact Misplaced Pages is really not a good place to post bitching. Productive commentary is always welcome but a 2 page rant about how much you think people are hypocrites is not really productive. Chillum 20:21, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. If they repost that rant again, I will block them for edit warring. Jehochman 20:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

More hypocrites engaging in more hypocracy. You can't defend the fact that you and the rest of the admins completely ignored clear violations from one side as admins came down full force on the other. Your answer is typical Misplaced Pages censorship. Neither of you have lifted a finger to enforce blatant policy violations occurring right under your nose -- so long as it involves one side in the conflict.

These are facts. They're not contestable. Your own absence of conduct indicts you when you then act only against one side.

And you have no answer for it other than to remove the comment.

I'll return the facts to the page.

Because you need to be confronted with your collective hypocrisy and your utter failure to even look like you're being fair. You really need to be called out on that on Misplaced Pages's pages.

You are the problem here.

-- Noroton (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to look into any complaints you have, but I can't do that until you start using civil discourse to express your concerns. Take stock, gather your thoughts, and then give me a precise, cool, and concise explanation on my talk page. Please include a few diffs to highlight your concerns. I will check them. Jehochman 20:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Review my censored ArbCom comments, which contain diffs. I'm reworking them and restoring my important points to the page. Let the clerks clerk the page. And why don't you ask yourself where you were when my complaints grew old at AN/I and 3RR/N. You can interfere now, but you couldn't do it then? Funny how admins get busy at the oddest moments. -- Noroton (talk) 21:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

By calling me a hypocrite you have confirmed to me that your accusations are fairly random. I have absolutely no involvement in whatever the dispute is about I was just commenting on your style of communication. By lumping me into the conspiracy you are imagining you have confirmed to me that your impressions are not based on evidence. Chillum 22:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You could see I was mad, but you persist. So let me refine my criticism of you. You aren't a hypocrite. Any fair-minded admin who waded in on this by commenting in any way would look through the four diffs I provided to see whether there's some outrage that caused me to make my comments. Well? Or are you content merely to leave comments on my page to goad me? -- Noroton (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The tone of your post prevented me from getting far in reading it. If you wish people to listen to you then you may wish to make your style more pleasant to read. Chillum 05:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You want calm discussion? See But when I make my style more pleasant to read it gets ignored. Which is what I'm complaining about in the first place. Follow the links in my ArbCom post. I was ignored at 3RR and no one at AN/I could either show me how my complaint was not a simple, obvious violation of edit warring according to the language of WP:3RR or why that obvious violation should not be addressed in any way. So I have experience in being polite and being ignored. -- Noroton (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That's good, practical advice. In looking, it does appear that Noroton may be in conflict with another editor who has been owning the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. My concern is that we may have two (or more) editors playing tug of war with an article where none of them are really aiming for NPOV. Jehochman 09:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

may be in conflict with another editor While true, you're looking past the real problem, which I assume you find an incredibly uncomfortable truth (more on that later). This conflict is surely the lowest level conflict on Misplaced Pages, since I have hardly any contact with LuLu. At some points in the past, we've gotten along well enough. Nor is LuLu much more active on that page than several other editors. It's an entire group. This is hardly the worst example of an edit-warred article, although what's going on there is classic POV edit warring on a (again, classic) mass scale. As the recent Acorn scandal unfolded, LuLu and his allies have had to slowly retreat as more and more sources and more and more editors have continually reinforced the facts, to the point that the article, while still obviously biased, isn't biased all that much. Just about all the important facts about the scandal are there and while comments from Acorn are overemphasized and quotes criticizing Acorn are underemphasized, that's really not terribly harmful. It's pretty clear, however, who's been winning the edit war overall. LuLu and the others aren't doing anything more than hasn't been done for years by others elsewhere (and by LuLu elsewhere). I'm more concerned that IP editors coming to Misplaced Pages casually and who contribute good-faith, non-POV edits that actually would improve the article are not only reverted completely, they are treated rudely with nasty edit summaries that are clearly unfair. The reverting without discussion and the lack of civility (we could add WP:BITE) are hurting Misplaced Pages by shooing away potentially good editors. It's pretty obvious to me that we lack editors on the right (although I can't prove it). If we had a better balance of editors interested in politics, it would be harder to WP:OWN political articles and bias them. To this day, the treatment of the word "terrorist" at the Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn and Weather Underground articles is horrendous, despite my getting 2/3 RfC consensus to have the articles reflect the way that word has been applied to the organization and those people by dozens of the best sources over decades, which I listed at the RfC. There's a reason for that, and it isn't just the editors identifiable as POV pushers. That gets us to the real problem.

The real problem is that admins at AN/I won't enforce behavioral policy in these kinds of disputes, making the problems fester and even move to other articles. None of the four links I provided at ArbCom go to the Acorn article or talk page. They all go to my complaints before admins, and each time admins failed (the civility complaint to Gamaliel actually may not have failed, I haven't checked, but it was certainly treated with kid gloves by an admin whose politics seem to make him very friendly with LuLu). What do you do when no admin will enforce a very simple request for a very clear violation of behavioral policy? Well, you take it to ArbCom. But the 3RR violations go stale quickly, and by the time I was done giving AN/I and 3RR a chance to deal with the problem, it was too late to go to ArbCom. It's true I could have waited for the next violations and then immediately taken them to ArbCom with links to the previous lack of action. And then ArbCom would do what it's done in the past: give kid-glove treatment to the perpetrators. I only have so much patience, and I think I spent a reasonable amount of time on this. I made my statement at the ArbCom page when I happened to see the Child of Midnight complaint because the alacrity in bashing CoM compared with the lack of response with LuLu on the same page, at almost the same time was stunningly offensive. You have avoided focusing on this, but in fact, this is the heart of it: Misplaced Pages's enforcement in large-scale political edit wars completely broke down. It was inadequate. The enforcement itself looks biased. I don't blame you for averting your eyes: It's ugly, it's big and there's no easy way to solve it. I can't do a damn thing about it as an editor, you can't do much at all as an admin (and what you could do with any effectiveness would take a lot of work and get you a lot of grief), and it isn't even easy for ArbCom. It's a failure of the system which doesn't have adequate policy to deal with it.

The most important thing anyone can do about it at this point is simply to recognize it and not be silent about it. You should acknowledge it, ArbCom should, other editors and admins should, Jimbo particularly should. Until we have a widespread acknowledgment of the problem, it will never be considered seriously by the vast majority of editors who don't deal with controversial articles. Can it be changed? You know that consensus for big policy changes is almost impossible at this point. I don't even have a clear idea of what policy might do a good job of dealing with it. I don't even have a clear idea of why admins shy away from dealing with these clear violations of the policies we do have. Is it me -- do admins just not want to deal with me? Is it political bias on the part of admins (it's a reasonable assumption, but I refactored that one out of my ArbCom statement)? Is it a reluctance to get involved in this kind of a situation? I do not know, and if you have some ideas on that, I'd like to know them. I do know that the result is to have bad-acting editors running rampant. LuLu's block log seems to show a long history of blocks for edit warring and I've seen his incivility before. But the real problem is bigger than LuLu, and a whack-a-mole response, editor by editor, isn't ultimately effective. Meanwhile, if an admin is quickly responding to complaints from one side of a political controversy, not to respond to complaints from the other side introduces biased enforcement, which only makes a particular POV war worse. THAT needs to be acknowledged, not (in effect) swept under the rug by smug, self-satisfied admins. I could give you diffs on that. -- Noroton (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Ping

Be more careful. --Tznkai (talk) 21:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way, as a former clerk, I would not be surprised if they found your comments still overlong and of an unacceptable tone.--Tznkai (talk) 21:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Strange. I don't know how that happens. I edited, I hit the button and didn't get an edit-conflict page. Oh well. Thanks for fixing it. Noroton (talk) 21:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record

These are my comments at the ArbCom requests page:

Revised bitching from Noroton

My original comment was censored, not by clerks but first by someone involved as a commenter in this case, Protonk, some of whose points I was criticizing. (I thought that clerks were the only ones authorized to police these pages, and the comment was up long enough for clerks to note it.) But that doesn't remove the fact that administrators on this site have still created a complete mess, and you all need to be confronted with the facts.

We have admins quite happy to pounce on editors on one side of this (Child of Midnight) while strangely unable to act when repeated complaints are made at 3RR/N and AN/I. You all need to be confronted with that.

We have a policy, NPOV, that arbitrators commonly throw up their hands and say they can't possibly enforce because it's a content policy and they only deal with behavior. At AN/I, admins regularly say the same thing. Fair enough. But then when complaints are made on one side in a dispute and are ignored when, shortly afterward, complaints from the other side result in quick blocks, we have admins -- in effect -- conducting POV pushing by proxy. Do they mean to do this? Intention is nearly impossible to prove, but in other cases we do have cases of admins with quite pronounced points of view blocking editors with opposing views, and doing so at the behest of POV pushing edit warriors. On this matter we have LuLu of the Lotus Eaters and Xenophrenic both edit warring at Acorn, both going over the 3RR limit in a days-long (now weeks-long? I haven't bothered to check) POV fight. And we have a complete, total breakdown in admin enforcement at both AN/I and 3RR/N. Not only did my second 3RR/N complaint get absolutely no action, but it sat there as every other single fucking complaint on that page was dealt with. So now we don't just have admins unable to enfroce NPOV, but they can't even enforce clear, black and white, obvious, cut and dried repeated violations of behavioral policy -- but only if those complaints are made against one side. There is no possible way that LuLu's violation of WP:3RR can be interpreted as not a violation, although that was done. I guess no admin dared to even comment on the second violation at 3RR/N because the embarassing hypocrisy of not acting was too much to handle. And when I brought it to AN/I, not one of these editors or admins commenting here had the decency to comment when the shoe was on the other foot. You need to be confronted with that.

Stomp in (commenting or acting) when it's one side getting the complaints and then ignore the blatant violations on the other side. What sterling behavior we have on the part of our admin corps here. You need to be confronted with that.

But when you do it, don't expect not to be called hypocrites. You are all, each one of you, hypocrites. Got it? Hypocrites. You make yourselves look like you're enforcing various behavioral policies, but when you enforce them only selectively against one side, what you're enforcing is something entirely different.

And you need to be confronted with that.

And here's the proof showing that you are Hypocrites. Hypocrites. Hypocrites. Hypocrites. There's just never enough time to address the crap that one side pushes out, but always the time to suit up for the S.W.A.T team when the other side is spitting on the sidewalk. What possible explanation can there be for this other than that you are complete and utter hypocrites.

And that's true whether or not you meant to POV push by hobbling one side and coddling the other. The fact is, you did it, no matter what you meant to do, and selective enforcement is still selective enforcement whenever you dip a toe in as an admin either by commenting or blocking one side and then walk away. Because you can be expected to know what will happen.

Look at the discussions the diffs point to and you can't come to any other conclusion: You all failed. Massively. If you have any integrity at all, any of you, editors, admins, arbs, you'll recognize that. Whether you have the guts to actually admit this is fucked up is not something that I even hope for. Therefore the resignation. -- Noroton (talk) 21:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

World Domination update

I've suggested merging World Domination into The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I know this may sound crazy but please check out the present status of the first article. Discussion is at Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion#Merger proposal. Hope you can come out of retirement for this. Thanks. Steve Dufour (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:NorwalkCTEaNwkRRstaShelter11172007.JPG

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Hi there

Hope you read this, Noroton. Wish you'd come back. We have much to talk about. 64.208.230.145 (talk) 21:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Blocked

Based on Checkuser evidence, I have blocked this account for 1 week for abusive sockpuppetry.. --Versageek 06:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)