Revision as of 15:37, 2 November 2009

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Turkey Stub‑class Mid‑importance

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Comments

Abbatai you're going to need better source to deny the Armenian Genocide. Or in this case to claim that there was a genocide against the turks. In any case, Turkish propaganda sites are not reliable. See WP:RS for more. VartanM (talk) 01:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

When I denied Armenian genocide?Saying Armenians also killed Turks isnot denial of Armenian genocide.Actually you are denying mass killing of Turks by Armenians.I will change the word genocide to massascre and revert the section.This page isnot for your anti Turkism propaganda tool.Abbatai (talk) 07:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop acting childish.Does the truth hurts?Thousands of Turks were killed by Armenians in ww1.Abbatai (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure. In defense.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

just read some books about history before your claims.Abbatai (talk) 18:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

How about a primary source written by a third party. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

All of my Armenian friends in here to spread their anti Turkism propaganda.I just ask a simple question do you deny the fact that Armenians also masaacred Turks?Many historians accept Armenians commited atrocities on Turks.Abbatai (talk) 19:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

FYI, I'm not Armenian and I'm not "anti Tuk". Your generalizations don't represent a primary source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Just answer my question.Dont focus on irrelevant topics.Abbatai (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I've attempted to rewrite the offending section to be as neutral as possible. Trouble is, there are no neutral sources I know of, and the Turkish ones are completely propagandistic. BTW, there is no museum in the base - the chamber lies completely empty (and actually the whole monument is falling apart). There is also no way it is the highest monument in Turkey (even eastern Turkey - Malazgirt Aniti looks higher http://www.dunyadevletleri.com/fotograf/761736.html), either in its actual height or its altitude. Its symbolism is interesting, but to write about it in detail would be OR. The monument is obviously connected to Turkey's campaing to deny the Armenian Genocide, but I don't know of a source that says that, so I probably also can't add that (no matter how obvious it is). Meowy 21:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I went even furthered and removed the silly sources about Armenians "committing genocides against Turkish villages" as it is just a fantasy section that has no place for a serious article. It appears that Abbatai also violated the terms of 3RR and is otherwise aggresively edit-warring.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the ermenisorunu.gen.tr source, it does have a fairly detailed explanation about the symbolism, so I'll extract some of its info and include it in the article. Meowy 00:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

LOL your neturality drives me crazy you deny massacre of Turks delete citations belong to historians and appear as netural.you can delete those events from Misplaced Pages even from your minds but the truth is there.Sooner (the better)or later the truth will prevail.Thanks for your one sided information to see how some people cannot overcome their prejudice(in this case against Turks).Malazgirt aniti is 42 meter and Igdir Soykırım Aniti is 43,5 meter you need a math 101 course lol.Abbatai (talk) 07:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

There are a library for genocide research and many documents(pictures, archives,etc) that proves massacre of Turks by Armenians in the monument.4.000 people visit the monument every year.Abbatai (talk) 07:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been there on several occasions, latest being 2004, and the rooms under the monument were closed and completely empty, full of dust, debris, and leaking water. Meowy 18:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This is what you want to see, and it is the highest monument in Turkey if you saw a higher one that cannot be true.Also do you need calculus course I can teach some numbers if you want, as I said before 43,5>42 good luck my friend.Abbatai (talk) 18:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Still no evidence of a primary source. Just typical nationalistic ranting... --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The bas-reliefs on the "hilt" are not more than 1.5m tall, so the overall height of the hilt can't be more than 5m, and the monument can't be much taller than 30m, 35m tops. Adding an extra 10m for the distance between the floor of the "museum" and the base of the actual monument might make it to 43.5 - but that is not how the height of monuments are measured. Look at the steps leading up to the "hilt" section. There are 5 of them. Steps are never more than 200mm in height, in most cases they are less, so that section is only 1m at most. Extrapolate that up to get an estimate for the overall height of the monument and it is far less than 43.5m. Meowy 19:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear Bear :) I have no time to waste on you.Meowy seems much more open minded than you but actually... anyway.When we regard all the building it is still the tallest.Abbatai (talk) 14:37, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

That's your problem. As is producing a primary source to back your fantasy. It takes a lot more than just some nationalistic-driven website to produce a historiography. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:10, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Armenian name in the lead

WP:NCGN : "The lead: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Stop editwarring. Sardur (talk) 16:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The keyword is "Relevant". Why Igdir is relevant for Armenian spelling? The names origin explained in Etymology and History section. According to Armenian SSR encyclopaedia the town was named tsolokert until middle ages. Is this the reason you include Armenian spelling? If this is the case, then pretty please, Include persian/turkish/russian spelling to all armenian cities which were part of those empires for several hundreds of years. Otherwise give a good reason why you target Turkish cities. Unible 06:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs)

This is ridiculous: I'm not targeting Turkish cities, I'm targeting cities wich are relevant concerning Armenian history, which is the case here. Sardur (talk) 06:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

You didn't answer any of my questions. Will do the same with the cities in Armenia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 10:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

WP:POINT?

I didn't answer them because they're not related with the issue of Igdir. Thus, pointless. Sardur (talk) 14:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

LOL. I knew that you can't answer it. Anyway, I for a while, will wait answer for an explanation from other constant editors. (Gazifikator, MashallBagramyan?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 00:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I can, but I don't see the point (excepting this one). Sardur (talk) 00:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I tried to be clear as I much as I can. However, since you still don't see the point, I shall explain it again. You included Armenian spelling to the name because sometime in the history It was part of armenia or somehow related to armenia. If this is the logic behind your argument, go ahead, and add all relevant spellings to all armenian cities which was part of russian/persian/turkic empires for several hundreds of years. If it isn't go ahead and explain your argument. Now, If can't explain, or refuse to explain just claiming that you still don't see the point, stop POV pushing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 01:51, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

You're exteremely wrong, wikipedia doesn't work like that. Here we talk about the article "Igdir". Period. You want to talk about the article of another city? Go to the talk page of that article.

As for Igdir, it was in Armenia till 1920, and a lot of sources can support the Armenian part of its history. The Armenian name in the lead is thus clearly justified.

You should stop denying this with your PoV-pushing. Sardur (talk) 09:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm getting a feeling that you're deliberately dodging the question. We are talking about Igdir and reasons you put armenian spelling in here. Are seriously claiming that Igdir was part of armenia till 1920? I guess you mean armenian region. Which were part of Ottomans for 300 years, Russians for more than 60 years and persians for more than 500 years. I rephrase my question so that you can finally see the point: Should we add all of these spellings (persian, russian, turkic) as well in this article or not? And why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 14:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

If we are really talking about Igdir and the reasons why you deleted the Armenian name in the lead, may I ask you why you are insisting with your question about other cities, and how an answer to it could help us assessing the relevance of the Armenian name in the lead?

Btw, I'm pleased to inform you that Armenia was independent from 1918 till 1920, and that Igdir was included in it for some time (without a single effort, I can think at least about three reliable sources supporting that). Does Treaty of Kars ring a bell? I suggest you to get your history right before modifying this article again. Sardur (talk) 16:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Sardur, now you're being silly. Everyone knows armenia was independent from 1918-1920. But you claimed that Igdir was in Armenia till 1920, which leads any uninformed reader to wrongly imply that it was in armenia for centuries. And treaty of Kars was made between Soviets and Turkey. They just returned the lands they captured from Ottomans in Tsarist era.

If you correctly read my previous question, which apparently you didn't, it says should we add the other spellings(persian, ottoman turkic, russian) to this article's (Igdir) lead? After all, Igdir was part of them for more time than any other country. I deliberately rephrased my question hoping that you won't use your 'i-dont-see-the-point' card. So should we or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 02:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Mind WP:CIVIL

On your question (sorry indeed), why not if it is relevant? See how it was treated on Kayseri for instance. Sardur (talk) 11:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. Although in Igdir's case I can't see what do you mean by relevant, I'm happy that you clarified something by answering the question. You stated that Igdir carried an armenian name and was part of armenia in some fraction of history and that makes it relevant to add armenian spelling, right? Is that the reason? If it is I'm very happy to leave that spelling there. Not because I find it logical, but to test out if this logic really works in wikipedia environment. From that point on, I'm going to apply the same "relevancy" logic to any other city I contribute, including armenian cities.

PS: What do I think is more logical way? Well, see Istanbul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 12:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's be clear: long Armenian history + Armenian population for a long part of its history. Sardur (talk) 19:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Long Armenian history? How long? Firstly, from XI century till now majority of Armenian territory was ruled by turco-mongols/persians/ottomans/russians (excluding 1918-1920). This is almost 10 centuries and I'm not even counting arabs and romans. But none of Armenian cities has spelling of countries it's been ruled by for a long time. So 'long history' argument fails. Also, you don't have any source of population figures for long part of history. Honestly, I'm not sure of the history of Igdir before X1 except that the name was tsolokert. This is mentioned in Etymology section and I think the spelling should be added there. See the articles, Istanbul, Yerevan: spellings provided in the history and/or etymology section. In history sections spellings are added by relevancy: i.e. in the section when it was ruled by persians, persian spelling of the name is provided. Otherwise the vast majority of regional entries should be changed if you argument is legitimate. Think about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible (talk • contribs) 03:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, long Armenian history (kingdom of Armenia, Bagratid Armenia,...). Also, the fact that the area was later ruled by Ottomans, Persians or others does not mean that Armenian history stopped during that period.

You may think what you want (and I may as well), but nobody cares: WP:NCGN is enough. If you disagree, fine, try modifying WP:NCGN. Sardur (talk) 14:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and you should definitely read WP:POINT. Sardur (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Perfect. That means some regional cities really needs revision on their lead from now on.

PS: I think I'll start with... lets say, Erevan.:) Unible 15:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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