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Revision as of 00:07, 8 November 2009 view sourceEmw (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers4,577 edits Disruptive editing by User:Neuromancer: Replied← Previous edit Revision as of 00:12, 8 November 2009 view source MBisanz (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users126,668 edits Explicit threats of violence: cmtNext edit →
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:Just a note that since this is an IP editing, there is nothing for a checkuser to do since a checkuser's only task is to look at IPs of a logged in account, not handle matters involving IP threats of violence. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 23:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC) :Just a note that since this is an IP editing, there is nothing for a checkuser to do since a checkuser's only task is to look at IPs of a logged in account, not handle matters involving IP threats of violence. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 23:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
::As the IP specifically refers to something about a pupil being Somalian in one, and black in the other, I could use the Met's online hate crime reporting tool, but does someone else have a more direct route? If not, I will do that and email the school - although both might come better from a Misplaced Pages email address. --] (]) 23:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC) ::As the IP specifically refers to something about a pupil being Somalian in one, and black in the other, I could use the Met's online hate crime reporting tool, but does someone else have a more direct route? If not, I will do that and email the school - although both might come better from a Misplaced Pages email address. --] (]) 23:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
:::No one has a more direct route. And no one like the checkusers has a Misplaced Pages email. It is all up to individual editors to decide what they will and will not do. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 00:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

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    Block review: university wants to be notified of vandalism, not blocked

    Resolved – No longer an ANI issue. Jehochman 03:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    The students at Lancaster University have been busy on Misplaced Pages. While some edits are without doubt constructive, others are far from it. Today's vandalism from 194.80.32.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) includes some really creative stuff. However the IP's talk page also has seven notations indicating that vandalism should be reported to the school rather than on the talk page, and that the university would prefer to deal with it, rather than have us block the IP.

    This issue was brought to my attention when I processed a block request for the IP at WP:AIV. While I would normally be inclined to let the university administration deal with the issue, the 13 previous blocks combined with the steady and continuous stream of vandalism (which shows no end in sight) leads me to the conclusion that enough is enough. As such, I have applied a {{schoolblock}} with a one year duration.

    Any admin who feels I have been too hasty should feel free to reduce or remove the block as they see fit. — Kralizec! (talk) 01:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    Completely support this block. Tan | 39 01:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    I agree. I saw where the one user claimed that this will block 20000 people. I don't see the problem with that. If they want to edit, they can register an account from elsewhere, and not be inconvenienced. While it is good that they are reacting to it, it does not change the fact that each of those 20000 could potentially make 4+ bad edits, and that quite a few seem to have taken that chance. Sodam Yat (talk) 01:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    steveb: and I have to say, we have received no notifications via email. Not one. Apparently the tools that WikiAdmins use (Huggle?) simply revert and write to the page (seems like a bit of a fault to me), so my efforts have been spitting in the wind. Steveb (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    steveb: as things stand at the moment, unless someone here camps on WP all day, vandalism reports will go unnoticed. As the last week has shown, even responding to complaints is not enough. Steveb (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    ←I have notified Steveb (talk · contribs) of this discussion after seeing that they have responded to most of the warnings on the IP's talk page in an official manner indicating that they are an official of the university. (Could this be a shared account? I say that because of the almost constant usage of we in their replies) -MBK004 01:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    steveb: I use the term "we" because I work as part of a team. Steveb is a thinly veiled disguise, my real name is Steve Bennett, I work in ISS (the University IT department). Steveb (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    I've allowed account creation. If a vandal registers, it'll be easier to narrow them down for the administration, I'm thinking. Also: they're students. May as well... Xavexgoem (talk) 02:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    steveb: Thanks for that, most of our users are away from home so the "register from home" thing is pretty inconvenient. Steveb (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Makes it harder for us to track, plus they will still get autoblocked... Prodego 02:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    I guess it's just IMO. <shrug> Xavexgoem (talk) 02:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    The school may be trying to prevent autoblock from causing massive disruption. One student could cause much of the university of lose Misplaced Pages editing access. For that student, it's fun. For others, it's hell. For that student, just cause a block and other computers get blocked. Just one visit to the computing center and another to the library could disrupt a lot of users. Ipromise (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    Has the individual (Steveb) that claims to have jurisdiction over this IP verified their identify with OTRS? Just a thought. Netalarmtrick or treat! 06:10, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    steveb: If I had ever heard of OTRS I might have used it. Steveb (talk) 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Steveb, you can read about it here -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 11:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    steveb: I don't really see that proving my identity makes any difference if WP admins will never read a response to a complaint, and it's moot now anyway - my institution has what amounts to a permanent ban on anonymous contributions, so it really doesn't require any further input from me.
    It would be great if account creation can be left in place so that those that wish to make a positive contribution can do so with a minimum of fuss. Steveb (talk) 12:40, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    We see here another edu institution trying to do the right thing - allowing students to edit and taking action against those who are making bad faith edits. It seems to me that WP should welcome this editor, and try and link them with others in similar situaions, and create some policies / guidelines to help them do their jobs and help keep wp clean. Misuse of computers in english unis is taken pretty seriously. Remember Civility (talk) 20:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    Well, it seems to me that obvious sock puppets shouldn't comment on administrative pages. But look, they do anyway. Auntie E. 17:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Its not a sock, it's an alternate account. Please assume good faith. An apology for you assumption of bad faith and accusation of damaging the project would be nice, but is not expected. Thanks for your contribution, which completely failed to address the problem of edu institutions wanting to help prevent damage from their users on WP, and getting no help to do so. I say, again, we want people like that on WP. Template warnings from NPP get ignored. A letter from your IT security warning you that you may lose your place at uni (which has considerable finanial implications in the UK) would be more effective, no? Remember Civility (talk) 19:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    While I am all for the University actively tackling student vandalism on Misplaced Pages, Lancaster's requested method (emailing details to the security department, rather than leaving messages on the IP's talk page) puts the onus on us, rather than the other way around. I suspect that many vandal fighters (like me) could not do this even if they wanted (because, for example, they can do web browsing from work but do not have access to their personal email accounts). Not to mention the fact that the defacto vandalism procedure on Misplaced Pages is revert/warn/block, so letting institutions pick a different way for us to handle vandalism coming from their network sounds like a recipe for disaster. If LU really wants to keep tabs on vandalism coming from their network, rather than relying on Wikipedians to send them email about it, perhaps the security department sould consider using the RSS web feed mentioned in the {{sharedIPedu}} header? — Kralizec! (talk) 16:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Frankly, I think that suspending or expelling students for ordinary vandalism is an excessive punishment. By contrast, when your IP is blocked, you can still use Misplaced Pages, just not modify it. Blocking protects Misplaced Pages without serious real-life consequences. Bwrs (talk) 02:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    So you think we would expel a student for adding rude words to a WP article?? Normally just getting someone face-to-face is sufficient to make them realise that computer misuse has real-world consequences. Steveb (talk) 10:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I can see Steve is trying his best here. If all of those students who need to edit WP register with an account, will the subsequent block on the Uni's IP prevent those who have registered being able to edit in their own account? Is that technically unavoidable? Leaky Caldron 10:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I think the block is on anonymous edits, and so long as account creation is not blocked, I think that's OK. My edits (like this post) are coming via the blocked IP address. Steveb (talk) 10:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    OK. So can those students requiring access for legitmate reasons not register? Then the IP block safeguards against the vandalism? I'm not sure if this helps Template:Schoolblock, whether it's already been considered or whether it is a total distraction to your problem. Anyone having problems registering could do so via you presumably? Leaky Caldron 10:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    It's reasonably common to block anonymous editing-only (reading will be fine) from a range of IP addresses. There should be no problem with users on that IP range creating a userid. I have rarely seen any hiccups with that process. Granted, users who thought they had logged in will be surprised to see a "blocked from editing" notice. It should be a wakeup call for people that they are, indeed, being watched. Does the University have an appropriate "Terms of Use" statement and security briefings for students that talks about "accountability and availability" issues? Getting students realizing early that nothing is truly anonymous, and that they are 100% accountable for anything they do and say not just on the internet, but everywhere seems to be a challenge these days. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Account creation can better be handled by e-mail requests, or the account creation module, where we can control it better. Once someone creates an account outside of these functions we can't easily connect them to the university absent grounds for a checkuser, which wouldn't be likely. I would prefer that steveb would verify his identity through OTRS, then I'd be inclined to give him account creation rights. BTW, I don't understand why we should care what the university does to the students, that's their business.--Doug. 11:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    That sounds good to me too. In case Steveb is not familiar with WP:ACC, students could contact Steveb (or someone else in the university) to ask for a username. Once the username is created with a dummy password, the student could then change their password. That should prevent vandalism-only accounts from being created, so autoblocks would less likely be an issue. Wknight94 12:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    1) That's the second reference to OTRS, again without any clues to how one can verify one's identity "using OTRS". As far as I can make out, OTRS is a ticketing system for handling requests; there's no reference to an identity verification system that I can see. Maybe I'm not looking closely enough.Steveb (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    2) I quite specifically do not want account creation rights. I'm more than busy enough with the stuff that my institution pays me to do - which includes investigating misuse, but does not include becoming the bottleneck for WP account provisioning.Steveb (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    The specific process isn't detailed on Misplaced Pages, to help prevent people gaming the system (see WP:BEANS). You can follow the instructions at WP:OTRS to contact them, and the OTRS team will help walk you through the steps to verify your identity. It's a touch convoluted, but it kinda has to be to prevent folks faking it. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    OK, I was sceptical before, but now I call Shenanigans. You're saying that there's a secret, undocumented procedure, that somehow I should have known how to follow in order to prove my identity, and you say that it can't be documented because then Bad People would use it. Plenty of other sites have been able to verify my identity; I've written systems to verify the identities of other people (it's not rocket science). On top of all that, I'm less and less convinced that I care if any WP admins know whether I'm "the real Steve Bennett", because it will make no difference to how the users at my institution get treated. I think I'm going to go back to the Real World for a while.Steveb (talk) 20:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Yeah, never mind OTRS. It doesn't address the issues at hand. Bottom line is you want an e-mail every time someone from your IP address vandalizes? And then you'll immediately stop them on your end, even on nights and weekends and holidays? For the e-mail, try WP:BOTREQ. For your claim to immediately stop vandalism on your end, now I call Shenanigans. Wknight94 21:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    No, I never said that we would "immediately stop them". I said that we would identify the originator and deal with him/her according to our disciplinary procedures - which involve real-world interactions between the originator and University staff, and (on the whole, in my experience) prevents a recurrence of the abuse. The WP vandalism that we have seen has been due to users being ignorant of the effects of their actions, rather than any deep-seated malicious intent. Steveb (talk) 23:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    The school is doing the equivalent of having the British government request the French police to report the whereabouts of any British pickpockets found in Paris back to the Brits, instead of arresting them. It might be well-intended but it's just not reasonable. Right now the school's network is essentially a big open proxy, and we routinely block those. Wasn't there a similar issue with AOL before, fixed by giving us a way to block AOL users based on the XFF headers? Maybe the same method could work with traffic from the school. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 21:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I don't find your analogy useful (if anything, it's like closing the Channel Tunnel to try to prevent British pickpockets in Paris, but it's still an unhelpful analogy). We're not an open proxy.
    Your assertion about XFF headers is interesting (if true). The notice on User talk:194.80.32.8 has said clearly (since February 2007) that requests from our proxies include XFF headers; I was given the impression that WP had no support for reading these. Does anyone have information on how to make use of this, or is it a one-off bodge for AOL? Steveb (talk) 23:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    You need to see this from the WP end Steve. If one of your guys goes off the rails and wholesale vandalises pages, you cannot expect that blocking will be deferred or for you to be contacted every time. What happens when your on leave? Surely by blocking the IP but getting your legitimate students registered it will save your time chasing and taking disciplinary action? Six of one and half a dozen of the other. Leaky Caldron 23:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    When we get recurring problems from IP addresses shared by multiple users, we do treat that as an open proxy (see for example the Bryan from Palatine and Scientology arb cases which I think implemented this remedy). As for blocking by XFF, apparently we have a list of proxies whose XFF headers we trust and to which the developers could possibly add your school (see m:XFF project and also for example here). In your case, that might not be workable, if your client addresses belong to your internal network rather than being real internet addresses. I'm not at all knowledgeable about this though. You could ask at WP:VP/T or irc freenode #wikimedia-tech if nobody here has better advice. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 02:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    This is a resource Wikipeida should be embracing. If even a small portion of those students create accounts and contribute it is awesome. More editors is good and if some of them have resources and the mentality to create encyclopedic material it is even better. I can't tell from the conversation above: Has allowing account creation been attempted? A malicious account created here and there after too many beers should be easy enough to contain by editors. Also, the thought of one of those kids getting a talking to (or even worse some sort of sanction from the school) since they got caught is too good to pass up. Imagine some kids face when Steve notifies them that they are going to have to explain to the parents holding the purse strings that they are not allowed access to the school's network any longer.Cptnono (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I think the way mediawiki's XFF works, any non-logged-in edits are logged as coming from the real client address rather than the proxy address, and we can (if necessary) block the real client. If someone at the school creates a wikipedia account and vandalizes under it, we would block the account (and checkusers could presumably see the XFF address in case of socking), but under our privacy policy, we could not notify the school (except under some extreme circumstances). It would amount to disclosing the IP address of a logged-in user. We would never do it for routine vandalism. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 02:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    This is not really an incident requiring administrator attention. Could the technical discussion be continued over at the appropriate page on WP:PUMP? Thank you. Jehochman 03:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    "van" or "Van"?

    According to Tussenvoegsel, when a Dutch person whose surname includes a tussenvoegsel is referred to by their surname, the tussenvoegsel should be capitalised (e.g. Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie or Van der Sar). However, User:84.91.100.2 is ignoring this rule at 2009–10 UEFA Champions League group stage and continues to write "van Persie" despite my messages on his talk page asking them not to. Could an admin please have a word with this user? – PeeJay 19:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    I've warned the IP with a van-3. Hopefully that will be an end to the matter. Mjroots (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    If the person in question was registered as "van Persie", then the correct way to write the name is "van Persie". This is not uncommon in Dutch. By the way, the word "van" is not a "tussenvoegsel". It is a "voorzetsel". What is needed here, is a wp:source for the specific name. There is no general rule for this. DVdm (talk) 19:25, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Neither am I. I'm Belgian, but we have the same phenomenon. By the way, have a look at van Persie's article and look at the consistency in the spelling :-)
    Cheers, DVdm (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    I'd never heard of a "voorzetsel", but that's only because I was introduced to the concept via the tussenvoegsel article. Anyway, the article seems to suggest that, in the Netherlands, when the surname alone is used to refer to the subject, the "van" should be capitalised. I'm fairly sure that the names are capitalised in Belgian conventions too, but IIRC, aren't most Belgian names capitalised anyway (e.g. Anthony Vanden Borre and Daniel Van Buyten)? – PeeJay 23:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    A voorzetsel is a preposition. "Van" translates to "from".
    In Dutch (the common official language of the Dutch in the Netherlands and the Flemish in Flanders, the northern half of Belgium) most names are indeed fully capitalized, but by no means all. Mine is not (type: "Van de m...", with capital V only), and apparently van Persie's is not. Cheers, DVdm (talk) 10:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    In Natalee Holloway, which contains many Dutch names, we learned that you only capitalize "van" when a first name or title is not used.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    So I am correct in saying that, in 2009–10 UEFA Champions League group stage, my version is correct ("Van Persie", not "van Persie")? – PeeJay 22:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    There's a lot of weird-ass language being used here so I'm going to ignore all of that and address this issue as an editor who holds (and correctly writes) a Dutch surname. In the case of the entire name (i.e. Joe van Whatever) 'van' is not capitalised. However, if a salutation or no name is used (i.e. Mr Van Bloggs or Van Bloggs) is used then the name is capitalised. I've been writing my name for the past 25 years and have yet to be corrected. RaseaC (talk) 19:46, 6 November 2009 (UTC) Interesting Mr.Snoppy (talk) 05:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    User: StephenPaternoster

    StephenPaternoster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    The above editor has been inserting unsourced material of low quality across Anglo-Viking and Anglo-Saxon articles, much of it reading as OR and fairly useless (possibly it was this. Or possibly that). He refuses to engage in any discussion over his edits on talk pages, even deleting other users' comments on article talk pages that pertain to his edits. He has also been reverting grammar and spelling fixes, declaring it to be 'fine as it is'. Following the latest reverts, he came up with this offensive edit comment. --Narson ~ Talk19:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    Whatever else comes of this, he earned a block for the edit comment. You aren't coming off too sterling yourself (calling his edits dross in edit summaries), btw. Syrthiss (talk) 19:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Only 31 hours? For that inexcusable summary, I would have blocked him for at least a month, and brought it here for a review of an indef. Horologium (talk) 20:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Implied threat of violence in the edit summary. Paternoster needs to become Our Father Who Art Indef'd. ←Baseball Bugs carrots20:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    I support a longer block for that edit summary, a month would be fair. Off2riorob (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Maybe Our Father needs to have a month added to that proposed indef, for butchering the English language. I'm sorely tempted to revert everything he's done that's at least the most recent change to an article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots20:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Syrthiss, his edits were dross (worthless) in my view, I was commenting on them and not the editor (who I'm sure has much to offer when he realises he is not a lone crusader). He refused to enter into any discourse over why his work was being removed/edited, so bluntness was all that was left. If people won't talk, there are few options available. Apologies if that seems overly harsh. --Narson ~ Talk20:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    The problem is that a comment like that doesn't really explain the problem. My edit summary for the first reversion was simply "editorializing", since it reads like a little original research essay. And the second one I reverted (so far) I labeled "editorializing, speculation, and poor English", the latter referring to that guy's tendency to write like a 3rd grader would talk, in run-on sentences. Ugh. ←Baseball Bugs carrots21:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    Actually, now that I think of it, he writes the way Casey Stengel used to talk. However, when Casey wrote his autobiography, he worked with a professional writer. ←Baseball Bugs carrots21:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
    I reverted a few items from his most recent updates, thus putting several articles about Vikings and such on my watch list due to the pillaging of those articles by the user in question. I feel as if I ought to post something on his talk page, but he'll just zap it like he did the block notice. ←Baseball Bugs carrots23:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

    Usually I'm worried that I'm being too harsh. My first inclination was for indef, but figured I'd give him a small benefit of the doubt. If someone wants to block our father the antisemite for longer, I'm fine with that. Syrthiss (talk) 12:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    I support a block extension for this awful anti Semitic comment. Off2riorob (talk) 13:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Support block extension - there's no way that comment can be acceptable Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    The block has been extended for a very long time (indefinitely), which serves him right for saying such an awful thing and the extension will also save Bugs from having to correct his spelling. Off2riorob (talk) 14:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    OK, I have him reblocked to indef. I wanted to make sure that he was unable to edit (the original block would have ended soon) pending any further discussion here, as so far it seems the consensus is my original block was too lenient). Syrthiss (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    That the startling and offensive edit comment justifies a ban is indisputable. However, a lot of what is said above is irrelevant and a summary indef. is disproportionate for an editor with no apparent track record. Leaky Caldron 14:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I have to agree with the above. I do believe 31 hours might be too short as a preventative measure (there needs to be some break so he can re-think his approach or the same behaviour will occur), but I do feel the motivation behind his edits was initially good, if misguided. Ideally we would find an editor willing to mentor him when he emerges from the block and we will have a constructure editor out of it all. Obviously this will only work if Stephen starts communicating with other editors, but if he doesn't then he will likely earn another block anyway. --Narson ~ Talk14:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Mentoring is one thing. But who's going to teach him how to write English? ←Baseball Bugs carrots15:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    One would assume it was more a lack of attention to his language rather than lack of knowledge, considering his location. I've often seen mentors copyedit propose edits as well. --Narson ~ Talk15:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    If his userpage is to be believed, he is a 15 year-old who was born and reared in England. It's disturbing that a teenager would use such a vile and disgusting metaphor to indicate displeasure with another editor, particularly because of the photos on Narson's userpage. Horologium (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Hold on, he has communicated on his talk. Off2riorob (talk) 15:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    He is sorry and won't do it again...well I suppose everyone deserves a chance, I could support a block of at least a week to show him how serious the community takes that kind of comment, it would be illegal in some countries, and then keep an eye on him. Off2riorob (talk) 15:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I cannot support an immediate unblock, but I may have a bit of a personal antagonism towards that edit summary. My partner's mother was one of the lucky Jews in Bialystok; she was exiled to Siberia rather than murdered (including those sent to Auschwitz). Horologium (talk) 16:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    I see that the general consensus is slightly veering towards leniency. My personal opinion is that any editor who can make such a callous, heartless, unfeeling and vicious edit as that edit summary (burning in Auschwitz) is, should never, ever be allowed to edit here. But I have been to Auschwitz, and perhaps he has not. --Anthony.bradbury 16:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    Totally reprehensible though the comment was, and deserving of decisive action, the purpose of blocking is prevention, not punishment. The duration of a block has to be related to the likelihood of a user repeating inappropriate behavior. He needs to get himself over here and provide apologies and assurances.Leaky Caldron 17:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    ? The user cannot edit here due to the indef, though I did make the offer to cut and paste any defense he cared to raise on his talk page to here. His unblock message does apologize and does say that he won't do it again. If I've misunderstood your comment, my apologies. Since I'm the one currently holding the block, I'm not going to respond to the unblock request myself. Syrthiss (talk) 17:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I had not read it when I posted above, but his talk page says: "I am sorry for what i done and i will not do it again i won't attack personal people it is not right and i will not do it again". You could have copied that over. It looks like an apology and an assurance he will not do it again. Leaky Caldron 17:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Alrighty, then my apology for not doing that. I considered that part of his unblock, and it was paraphrased by Off2riorob above. Syrthiss (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    I wouldn't unblock him yet - I gather he's only young and it's poor form to encourage the young to believe that just apologising will make everything all right instantly. Give him a week, and discuss some of his worse edits on his talk page in that time. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    Agree that a longer block is needed. This is not being punitive, it's being preventative: absolute racism in that format has a ripple effect on the project. If a whole slew of people who were affected by the comment see that the editor received a very minor tap on the wrist, then you'll get a collective howl, AND set a precedent for future situations. I know this isn't a crystal ball, but the action/lack of correct action will have longstanding ramifications. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I was thinking more along the lines on not coming back until he’s shown an appreciation of proper behaviours. If, as suspected, he’s a school student, ask him to produce an essay based on the 5 pillars or some suitable civility topic. If it passes in a week (or longer) fine, if he cannot be bothered let the block remain. We are allowed to be creative aren’t we? Leaky Caldron 18:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    I am about to scram for the day. My thoughts on the above essay idea - really, I suspect he wouldn't want to write one and I myself really don't want to read it. Misplaced Pages is not a 12 step program, or therapy. My thoughts are this: if we accept that he is sorry, then a week away isn't going to make him sorry-er. If we accept his apology, we should unblock him now. If we think that his comment is just an indication of future disruption to come then we should recognize that the block is not punishment (to address Leaky Cauldron's concern) and is to prevent further disruption. If that is the case, the indef should stand and his unblock should be denied.

    His current status is that Beeblebrox was placing the unblock on hold, assumedly to come discuss with me, and then rescinded his offer based on the edit summary. Before I log off, I'm going to go restore the unblock to the state it was before Beeblebrox placed it on hold as that is my last read on what the user wanted. Syrthiss (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not acting as an apologist for this editor. WP:Block lead is clear the purpose of blocks and repeats 2 further times (wp:Blocking_policy#Purpose_and_goal, Wp:Blocking_policy#Duration_of_blocks) that they are not for punishment. An indef. Block cannot stand without justification and there appears to have been no attempt at education either as per, Misplaced Pages:Blocking_policy#Education_and_warnings. He’s entitled to be treated per policy even if he does not have the competence to check out and understand the policy. My suggestion was merely to test his desire to join the community in view of the grave and wholly unacceptble error he made today. Leaky Caldron 20:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    He has again blanked his talk page and the editor that was looking at his unblock dropped out as he said he couldn't continue to be neutral after reading the edit summary, don't forget that we are allowed to add our own common sense to the situation. Off2riorob (talk) 20:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    If he's actually 15 and is actually using his own name, that's trouble enough right there. ←Baseball Bugs carrots01:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    I would support an extended block. Bwrs (talk) 02:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    He has put in a new unblock request (rather rambling but hey ho). Pleased to see he wasn't planning to kill Jews but just me! ;) --Narson ~ Talk20:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Have you misinterpreted that Narson? I can't see that, have another look. Off2riorob (talk) 20:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    There is something not right here. Although the user is not noted for using punctuation, this dif. represents about 40 edits by the user (only a few by intervening editors). I cannot testify to the subject matter, but the general prose is not at the very poor level of his talk page explanation which is, frankly, puerile. I don’t know whether policy restricts illiterate editors and I do wonder if he is attempting some sort of juvenile attempt to “game” himself out of the block. I make no apology for assuming bad faith in view of his disgraceful edit summary leading to his block in the first place. I don't think he was talking about Narson by the way, more likely Hitler I think. Maybe my essay suggestion should be reconsidered, this time based on his ability to write coherently using correct grammar. Leaky Caldron 20:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I suspect the editor may have taken Dutch Courage to post his unblock request. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    And....blanked again. --Narson ~ Talk23:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    (response to Leaky Cauldron) Actually, I am pretty sure that the edit summary was directed at Narson. He has two photographs of Auschwitz on his userpage (free-use pictures he took and contributed to the project), and it's way too coincidental that a reference to the same concentration camp was made in response to an edit he made. In any case, I don't see a rush to unblock this kid, and if he keeps blanking his talk page, nobody is going to unblock him. Horologium (talk) 14:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    The edit summary certainly was, no doubt about it. The discussion above is whether his "apology" on his now blanked talk page reiterated the threat. Having just re-read it, it is unclear, although I don't think he is reaserting it. Either way, he is a problem user and should be reinstated only once Admins. are satisfied about his future behaviour (and editing style).Leaky Caldron 17:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Sorry yes, I was joking earlier (mostly). Refering to the past tense. He said he regretted his edit summary and while he meant it about me, never meant it in an antisemetic way (To denigrate the thing). TBH I forgot I had those pics there and it took me a while to understand why he had made the comment at all. I think we should perhaps wait for him to put up an unblock and leave it up for 24h before engaging with him about it. He obviously is trying to work out how to get his message across. --Narson ~ Talk23:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Trulexicon

    Trulexicon (talk · contribs · logs)

    This user has spent almost the entirety of their time on wikipedia reverting references to Larry Sanger being the co-founder. That issue is long resolved to everyone's satisfaction (except her and Squeakbox's, both of which come back and revert to the founder version time and time again), consensus favours the co-founder description, something that is ably supported by sources from the time, including Jimmy himself and the WMF (anyone interested might like to look up the archives of Jimmy Wales). I ask that someone uninvolved step in here. I realise this is a content dispute, but there are underlying behavioural issues, like completely disregarding the consensus that has been formed and the almost-an-SPA status of their account. Viridae 09:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    This still needs attention. Viridae 23:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    Apologies for the inattention. It seems to me, looking at Trulexicon's edit history, that Viridae's characterisation of the account as SPA-like is warranted. I also see no justification for Trulexicon's single-minded editing over this issue; that sources support Larry Sanger as the co-founder is, as far as I'm aware, a long-held consensus position, and the alternative view receives little or no support.
    To address the intermittent but ongoing disruption, one solution would be to topic-ban Trulexicon from any founder-related areas, which I am happy to impose if it has the support of other editors/admins. However, Trulexicon's limited editing interests mean this might amount to a de-facto site ban, so my preferred response is to give Trulexicon a chance to voluntarily diversify their editing into more worthwhile areas under the following conditions:
    • Any edits relating to Wales/Sanger should be proposed on the relevant talk-pages for discussion before making them (note that this is not a carte-blanche to tendentiously make use of argumentation; Misplaced Pages is not a battleground)
    • The zero-revert rule should be followed by Trulexicon on all articles in this area
    • Established consensus must be respected; if it is challenged, use should be made of the proper channels
    • Any further disruption on either the articles or talk-pages will lead to to blocks of increasing length.
    Pending further input, I'll leave Trulexicon a note setting out the above. EyeSerene 09:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Trulexicon has added the word reared to the article again. Sanger is not an animal. See Talk:Larry Sanger/Archive 2#Reared vs Raised and User talk:Trulexicon#repeated BLP violations added to Larry Sanger article. QuackGuru (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Thankyou EyeSerene. Viridae 13:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    User:Ani medjool

    Unresolved

    I'm bringing this here because I feel I'm out of my depth with this. The editing of Ani medjool (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been raised with me by two separate editors on two separate occasions. Deborahjay raised an issue with Ani medjool's editing with me on 17 October (further details). The editor was nominating Commons files for speedy deletion. I issued a uw-generic4, which was later removed by Ani medjool as delete lies.

    Today, Hertz1888 raised an issue on my talk page about Ani medjool's editing (see most recent contribs of Ani medjool). I do know that Ani medjool is subject to the WP:ARBPIA case and has been notified of this. Therefore I'd like to leave this in the capable hands of more experienced admins than myself to take any action that is felt necessary. I will notify Ani medjool that the issue has been raised here. Mjroots (talk) 09:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    Notified Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I have only taken a quick look at Ani medjools editing today at Golan mountains, and as far as I can see, there is nothing wrong with his edits. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


    I think the crux of the recent editing issue is whether or not the Golan Heights are considered by the Misplaced Pages community to be a part of Israel or a part of Syria. Mjroots (talk) 10:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    An article on a winery is definitely not the place to discuss an area's political or legal status. The whole purpose of wikilinks is to make it possible to find more information on a linked subject, such as Golan Heights. Tomas e (talk) 12:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
    I've looked at some of the edits in question. While some of the changes made by Ani medjool may be debatable, I do not see them as disruptive. While it is perhaps incorrect to change the category at Petroleum Road, for example, to read simply Category: Roads in Syria, it is perhaps equally incorrect for it read as it did before Ani medjool's changes as simply Category:Roads in Israel. The Golan Heights is considered to be Syrian territory that is Israeli-occupied by most of the world. Israel's annexation of it is not recognized as legal anywhere except Israel. All of these articles need to be reviewed. As a quick neutral fix, I might suggest they be categorized simply as being in the Golan Heights, without designating them as either Syrian or Israeli to avoid taking sides in this territorial dispute. Alternatively, they might be categorized as being in "Israeli-occupied territories" to reflect the majority worldwide POV on the matter. Tiamut 14:03, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

    I do nothing but correct false information propigate by misinform editors. Golan is Syria not israel. If United State build winery or ski resort or military base in israel or other country we not say it located in United State, we say it located in country it build in. The same be truth in this situation. If jew or israel state choose build winery in SYRIAN territory it do not make it part of israel! I also think the ADMINISTRATOR who instigate personal attack on Supreme Deliciousness should be admonish by wikipedia, because as admin and respect member of wikipedia, the editor should know not to make personal attack and should know difference between personal attack and regular response. I question neutralness of admin because of his personal attack against editor who not share same view has him, and there fore this admin do not belong making decision in this case. Ani medjool (talk)

    Comment The redacted comment was not intended as a personal attack on Supreme Deliciousness. It was a statement of fact re SD's POV. It was also made clear that the SPI referred to cleared SD. If it came across as a personal attack to SD the I publicly apologise to him for the remarks. It's not a question of neutrality here; I don't know enough about the Middle East and the background of individual editors in the ARBPIA case to be able to deal with this myself. Which is why I've raised it here and am happy for other admins to deal with the situation. I myself will not be taking any action against you, Ani medjool. Mjroots (talk) 06:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Comment—It is clear that Ani medjool's edits are not simply controversial and disputable, they are pure vandalism. For example, in this revert, he removes a category and insert a controversial statement but also with improper spelling. He has also made a disruptive edit to a template, which is especially problematic. I wouldn't mind participating in a discussion about the content of the edits, but don't feel that User:Ani medjool should be allowed to continue these making edits like this until he has had time to familiarize himself with Misplaced Pages and its policies. —Ynhockey 00:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

      • Counter-Comment I haven´t looked at Ani medjool contributions in general; but if someone call the Golan for "Israeli-occupied", (as Ani medjool did), then this simply cannot be labeled "disruptive". After all, it is the internationally recognized position. Reading what the BBC writes about notation might be educating: . Regards, Huldra (talk) 14:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Counter-Comment - Poor spelling/grammar/capitalization is not vandalism. Don't get me wrong; I'm not stating that he should be allowed to continue editing (he doesn't seem to be cooperating terribly well, which is necessary), but I just should hope that any action taken would be solely for the preservation of wikipedia's article standards, rather than based on any assumptions of vandalism or other malicious intent. (a fine hair to split, perhaps, but I think important) 139.57.101.207 (talk) 00:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    English not my first language, I sorry you have problem with my spell and language skill. It not vandalism, the edit I make, because international community recognize Golan Heights be part of Syria that currently under military occupation by israel. This do not change fact that place in article be located in Syria and not Israel. Vandalism be disruptive false insert of material to article, I just attempt to correct false information with truth: that Golan Height is recognize as Syria not Israel and there fore article about thing in Golan Height should be attributed to Syria and not israel. If other editor do not beleive this be Syrian and instead it be part of Israel, i stop making edits. But i request discussion because this important issue that has for long time not be addressed. Ani medjool (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Comment - Ani medjool, you have edit-warred, POV pushed and politicized many non-political articles. For instance, at "Talk:Falafel#Images" you and another editor complained that the falafel photos taken in Israel should be removed because of the fact they were taken in Israel. Furthermore, your comments on that talk page telling me that I should "cease cry and cease play of traditional "poor me. poor jew" wolf call" are not constructive. Those actions, and others, have made it very difficult for editors to Assume Good Faith when dealing with your edits. --nsaum75 02:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Comment - When looking through his previous edits, it is more than difficult to assume good faith. It's impossible, as it is clear that he is incapable of putting aside his political beliefs and contributing positively to Misplaced Pages. He isn't here to help the website; he's here to spread propaganda. The best example of his intentions is one of his past reasons for edits: "the picture in ramallah is good enough, its better than the one in jew city". -- 99.253.230.182 (talk) 04:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Comment There is no doubt that this editor has a strong anti-Israeli POV which he regularly pushes. He also has repeatedly made offensive comments against Jews. However, in reference to the specific issue which caused this thread to be raised, there has been collective violation of NPOV by multiple editors which has resulted in the pervasive categorisation of places and properties in part of Syria as Israeli. (Claims of items such as roads and wineries as being Israeli-owned are problematic due to their being constructed on illegally confiscated land and therefore there alleged Israeli ownership would be regarded as in violation of multiple motions of the Security Council and other internaitonal legal bodies.) Ani Medjool's highlighting of this problem is a positive contribution to the project even though some of his behaviour justifies repeated short bans. His conduct problems should not be used to prevent the pro-Israeli npov-violations in Golan-related articles from being addressed.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Comment - regardless of the status of the Golan Heights (that's another debate for another time & place), it seems to me that this editor is indeed anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish, and these beliefs are affecting his editing ability; Misplaced Pages is meant to be neutral! GiantSnowman 17:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Possible legal threat from an IP, but one who gives full contact information in real life

    See Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance/Requests#Corrections on Anastase Gasana Profile. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    WP:DOLT, please - we have the foundation for this sort of thing. I directed the poster to the contact email at WP:LIBEL, but someone else should feel free to direct this to OTRS if you think it necessary. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I love that acronym. I await the day when someone creates a page that acronyms as WP:YOUSTUPIDBASTARD. HalfShadow (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Tothwolf flaming out while announcing retirement

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Unresolved – moved to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Hounding of Tothwolf Off2riorob (talk) 14:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


    I can not fully participate in the Misplaced Pages project because I must walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting another user. Depsite my walking on eggshells, they are lashing out. If this documentation is tl;dr for your attention span, just open the diffs.

    Tothwolf (talk · contribs) is retiring. Unfortunately he is going out in flames and claims that people are out to get him. . Before his retirement claim he spent the previous day making increasingly outlandish, irrational and paranoid claims against myself and other editors ,

    Tothwolf has lost touch with who his delusional attackers even are . When taken to task on removing his flames from discussions by neutral third parties he gets more belligerent at them . Or, when a neutral third party simply hides the flames he revert wars to make sure they are visible to all with inflammatory edit summaries and new threats at the third party .

    A month ago, Tothwolf made a huge screed at ANI about these accusations that myself and others were attacking him. It is here. Tothwolf would restate his case every day on ANI to ensure the issue didn't scroll off the main page of ANI, until someone moved it to a subpage. My take-away from the ANI case was to slow down PROD or deletion nominations in a specific subject area and to stay away from Tothwolf. At the conclusion of the ANI discussion, I took a one week break from the project. On my return, I was immediately accused of stalking him again . All of my edits between my break and his accusation are in this contribs history, . Tothwolf's subject area is IRC clients. I performed some followup to IRC articles based on deletion discussions one week previous. Tothwolf takes his ownership of the IRC subject area seriously, so apparently any work done on those articles is a personal attack on him.

    I have tried very hard to have zero direct interaction with him. I have ignored his outbursts. I have let other parties reply to him in public discussions. In the interests of not interacting with him, I have not continued debates even on matters of substance. I was going to turn this latest episode of his into an RFCU but did not for three reasons. First, if he is retiring he won't defend himself which is not fair, and won't appear fair. Second, in gathering the diffs, it became obvious that this latest episode was extremely one-sided coming from him and towards many users. Nobody has done any action to provoke Tothwolf personally. Third, the outbursts are becoming increasingly less rational and needs the kind of immediate attention RFCU wouldn't provide.

    Thanks to those who would take the time to read through this. Miami33139 (talk) 17:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    I can't see that there is much an Anministrator could or would do about this, looks like a good case for Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution to me, looks like he just needs a break and he has said he is having one. Off2riorob (talk) 18:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    He said his having a break, but isn't doing it, and the attacks are continuing. Administrators can act on that. Miami33139 (talk) 18:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Do you have a link to an attack? Off2riorob (talk) 18:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    As you did not notify Tothwolf of this thread, I have notified him.Off2riorob (talk) 18:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    this is an attack. Repeating it at every opportunity is an attack. Calling me a meatpuppet, repeatedly, is an attack. Doing the same to other users is an attack. Everytime he flips out and calls any criticism of an article he edits as a personal attack on himself is WP:OWNership, and irrational behavior that doesn't allow people to edit around him. Miami33139 (talk) 19:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    I wouldn't call that much of an attack, and it is not a continuation of recent behaviour, the edit is two days old. I looked through his edits and it seems to me like he likes to save articles and you like to nominate them for deletion, as I said dispute resolution would be useful for you pair. Off2riorob (talk) 19:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    "I can not fully participate in the Misplaced Pages project because I must walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting another user."
    Oh really? That's funny, I'm under the impression I've been the one prevented from editing articles or doing prod and AfD patrol work for WP:COMP due to you and your meat/sockpuppets wikistalking anything I touch. Lately the only thing I've been able to work on is a large project in the Template: namespace due to your continued harassment. You've been warned repeatedly to "disengage" and to leave me alone yet you still refuse to do so.
    For those that care to wade through the tl;dr, past details are summarised in an AN/I discussion here (which I can update if necessary...I have the diffs saved and ready).
    Here are a few links that demonstrate the continued Wikistalking the moment I touch anything outside of the Template namespace:
    Miami33139, quite frankly, your claims are absolute crap. You've continued to violate both WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASS by wikistalking, harassing, baiting, and taunting. You did the same thing to User:Ed Fitzgerald and he finally gave up and left the project. I'm not Ed, however, and I'm calling WP:DUCK. Furthermore, I think any uninvolved editor who takes the time to wade through the tl;dr of the last AN/I (summarised here) and whom dares to comb through your contribs will see your tactics for what they really are.
    For what its worth Miami33139, no one here can do anything worse to me than you already have. Bringing this here in hopes of getting someone to block me won't change anything for me since I already can't really edit anything because of you and your *puppets' wikistalking and harassment.
    --Tothwolf (talk) 20:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    WP:AGF Tothwolf. You are accusing Miami of a lot of things here. And as for your "no one here can do anything worse to me than you already have", WP:NPA.--The Legendary Sky Attacker (talk) 20:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Follow through the past AN/I linked above. I'm not stating anything that can't be validated. I'm not sure why you are linking NPA while quoting part of what I said above as while it has been tempting to give Miami and their *puppets some of their own treatment in return, I've not actually done so. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Please explain how this edit has anything to do with you whatsoever. Miami33139 (talk) 20:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    -
    Please explain how this edit has anything to do with you, beyond you commenting on the AfD discussion of this article several days after I did. You have never edited this article or its talk page. When you claim I am harassing you, does that mean if you comment at an AfD discussion, that I may never touch the article or any discussion of that article ever again? Miami33139 (talk) 20:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    -
    Please explain how this edit is harassing you. I nominated that article for deletion about a month ago. It is now at DRV. I believe that a short comment that I think it should have better sources before restoring it is legitimate. You did not work on the restoration, as far as I know. The comment is not directed at you. I found the issue because I follow DRV and follow the deleted articles that I nominated. How does this harass you? Miami33139 (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    -

    Please explain how this edit harasses you. I nominated this article for deletion when it had a POV bias. In AfD several editors volunteered to change the article to remove the POV bias. That effort is continuing. I made a single edit to remove an entry that didn't belong here. What is your role here at all? Miami33139 (talk) 21:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    -
    Related to the above, this edit is a constructive proposal to create effective criteria for an article I've been looking at for a long time, after AfD discussion changed its focus. What does this have to do with Tothwolf? Nothing. Miami33139 (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    • It seems like the two users should be banned from interacting with each other. Why do they need to comment on each other? Can't Tothwolf retire in peace? Can't Miami33139 refrain from posting about Tothwolf on ANI? I don't see any benefit to Misplaced Pages in pursuing this matter further. Simply disengage and let there be peace. Does anybody disagree? Jehochman 21:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Because Tothwolf doesn't want to actually retire, so these claims will continue. Look at the list of diffs that he has provided as evidence of my harassment and you will see my dilemma. For a month I have not interacted with him. He is pulling edits from nowhere that these edits harass him on articles he has never edited and never commented on. How am I supposed to know which edits will be harassment if he has nothing in that contribution history? Miami33139 (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Nothing in the edit history huh? Miami, you are full of it. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    There is nothing in THIS edit history, .And there is nothing in the diffs shown that show how my edits interact with yours at all. Everything you touch becomes yours, and anyone you dislike gets told they are harassing you. Miami33139 (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Topic ban Miami from software articles (especially Multimedia software articles), AfD, prod, and their new target "IRC" articles (they picked those to mass-AfD to try to get revenge on me for the last AN/I because I worked on many of them) and all those problems should go away. For that fact, expand it to the other two *puppets Miami "recruited" as well. I'll provide links for those two editors as well if needed although the AN/I link above should fill most people in. I'm not really interested in "retiring" although I tried to take a break without success due to Miami and their *puppets continued harassment. Hell, I've tried to stay away from Miami but they or their *puppets AfD seemingly any articles I attempt to work on as a means of harassment. I've gotten absolutely sick of it and I think most any reasonable person in my shoes would feel the same way as their actions have continued to fit the very definition of Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Wikihounding. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Please explain how this edit is harassing you. Miami33139 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    You guys are being discussed here again? Oh Miami33139, you're a total drama queen lover, aren't you? You relish having driven Tothwolf crazy. "I can not fully participate in the Misplaced Pages project because I must walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting another user." Bwhahahahaha. Thank god I'm not an elementary school teacher, as I've no idea how to stop this inanity.--Milowent (talk) 21:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Heh, it never stopped. It only slowed down when I stopped editing articles and stopped participating in AfD, DRV, etc, but you saw all the past stuff so you know what happened :/ --Tothwolf (talk) 21:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Milowent, if you wish to help Tothwolf, please examine the six diffs provided by Tothwolf where he claims I am harassing him, and explain to me how those diffs harass him. Miami33139 (talk) 21:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
      • The problem is 100% tothwolf, not anyone else. he has egregiously failed to AGF and defaults to paranoid personal attacks, accusations, and drama stirring anytime someone touches an article he owns. he's already been shown to have a COI in the IRC area, as he's an eggdrop developer (or somehow related to the eggdrop project (check the COI board archives), so it's no wonder that he has ownership issues with irc related articles. If an admin wants to see another admin's take on tothwolf's behavior, check out User:Mikaey/Tothwolf. tothwolf has already been admonished for his failure to agf by admins repeatedly. it's time this ended Theserialcomma (talk) 21:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    nominating articles that are not worthy of inclusion is not harassment. that is what we do with bad articles, we delete them. if they are worthy of inclusion, they will be kept. if they are deleted, they were bad, or can be recreated. this is not harassment. what is harassment, however, is calling people stalkers and trolls. stop this behavior and get over it. the only topic ban necessary should be tothwolf from IRC-related articles. Theserialcomma (talk) 21:39, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    • I wouldn't say its 100% anybody who is the problem, because my recollection is that there was some serious ban discussion around Miami and JBSupreme last month in connection with Tothwolf, before it all fizzled out in yet another tl;dr ANI. I suggest a cage match to resolve it.--Milowent (talk) 21:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    here's a link to tothwolf's admonishment: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=317692047#Proposed_Remedy_-_Tothwolf Theserialcomma (talk) 21:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Pfft, anyone who cares can check Theserialcomma's contribs, block log, talk page history, and the AN/I link above and see that their claims are bogus. They've been blocked for this kind of thing before and I see no reason to respond further to Theserialcomma. --Tothwolf (talk) 21:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Don't respond to him, respond to this, please explain how this edit harasses you: Miami33139 (talk) 21:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    (edit conflict)A cage match you say? Cool. I'll be the referee.--The Legendary Sky Attacker (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Hey! I'd pay to see that...oh, wait... ;) --Tothwolf (talk) 21:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    so tothwolf, you attack my character when i link an admin's admonishment of you? ]. I'm afraid that's not how it works. This is about evidence and diffs, not personal attacks against those who provide diffs. Theserialcomma (talk) 21:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Tothwolf provided these six diffs to show my harassment. . I encourage any administrator who thinks Tothwolf has any merit whatsover to his claims to examine the links he has provided and explain how these edits harass him. This is his evidence. These edits have no relationship to Tothwolf at all. They may as well have been chosen at random from my edit history. Miami33139 (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    As I said a lot earlier, you guys are in need of Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, squabbling here is not helping. (imo) Off2riorob (talk) 23:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Long term harassment does not fall under normal WP:DR processes (I've asked). --Tothwolf (talk) 23:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Perhaps an Administrator editing restriction that you are both not allowed to contact or comment regarding each other. Off2riorob (talk) 23:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    That would be highly unlikely to accomplish much as this particular "group" of editors follows me around to different XfD discussions and they AfD articles when I attempt to do any real editing. Can't say I've had much to do with them outside of their blatant wikistalking efforts. Here is a link to one of User:Theserialcomma's more elaborate efforts of false COI and SPI reports that they tried. Theserialcomma has a long history of doing that exact sort of thing to editors that they don't like and it can all be found in their contribs and talk page history. --Tothwolf (talk) 00:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Everyone is out to get you. Can you name some more members of this group? Can you show me how

    Perhaps a finding that I have done so in the last month? That is exactly what I am alleging. I have ignored him. I haven't contacted him. I haven't commented on him, or at him. A little bit of actual process before imposing restrictions would be useful. Read the last entry from me above. Tothwolf gives six diffs showing my supposed harassment of him. Please show me where any of those six diffs actually have anything to do with him. How about you take a look at one diff he provided. JUST ONE DIFF and tell me how that affects him? Miami33139 (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Editing restrictions

    To end this feud, which is harmful to Misplaced Pages, where it is unclear who is in the wrong and quite possibly both editors have not acted perfectly, I propose to enact two editing restrictions:

    • Miami33139 (talk · contribs) is topic banned from Tothwolf (talk · contribs) for a period of three months. If Miami33139 comments on, wikihounds, or otherwise baits Tothwolf, Miami33139 may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator.
    • Tothwolf (talk · contribs) is topic banned from Miami33139 (talk · contribs) for a period of three months. If Tothwolf comments on, wikihounds, or otherwise baits Miami33139, Tothwolf may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator.

    Barring an objection from another administrator before the close of this thread, or an arbitration filing by one of the parties, the above restrictions should be logged at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. There have been personal attacks and unhelpful behaviors by both parties during this thread. It would have been better if one or both editors had agreed to disengage from this dispute. Since neither was willing to back down, I think the only reasonable course of action is to force them to stop fighting. Jehochman 03:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC) and 04:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Comments by uninvolved users
    Comments by Tothwolf
    I'm going to raise a very loud objection here; This does not address the harassment from the other two editors in their "group", nor will it prevent them from continuing to AfD articles I'm working on, nor follow me to XfD and !vote against me (often with absurd rationales that go against Misplaced Pages policy, guidelines, or just consensus). This is not a feud as you describe, I've been the target of outright harassment for months on end. Furthermore, I've done nothing to Miami33139 or his "friends" to warrant someone proposing a topic ban for myself.
    Let me make this even easier, if the community refuses to step up and properly deal with the three editors who've been outright Wikistalking me, and this thread closes without the larger being ignored again (and myself being "topic banned") then I quit. I've put a lot into Misplaced Pages and I'll finish {{cite IETF}} before I go (I got some emailed questions asking if I was going to finish it yesterday when several people saw me add a retired template to my talk page) but there is little reason for me to stick around if I can't edit without being harassed. I invite the community to have a long hard look at each of our contribs and decide the outcome.
    --Tothwolf (talk) 03:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    If you are being harassed by a group of editors, that is a problem that needs to be addressed. ANI isn't going to be of much use because the group will simply gang up against you. I think you need to request arbitration so that the entire matter can be looked at closely. We don't have the capability to handle something that complex on this board. Jehochman 04:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I'm beginning to think that may be the only option left. Can you point me to an admin who would be willing to lend a hand with the process? I've got piles of diffs saved from all three involved editors but I don't feel I can't tackle that process by myself. --Tothwolf (talk) 04:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    He isn't being harassed. He is paranoid and delusional. He is now claiming that my edit to a section of an article harasses him because eight months ago he made a minor edit to the same article. What is clear is that if he has ever touched an article then anyone who he dislikes who later touches the article is harassing him. This is the most severe case of ownership I have ever seen. Miami33139 (talk) 04:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Comments by Miami33139

    Make a finding that I already have editing incorrectly in the last month in regards to Tothwolf. Tell you what, show me how this diff, , which Tothwolf claims is harassing and I will leave the project. Nobody here proposing anything has actually said I did anything wrong. Don't be so quick to act unless you are willing to actually look. Here I am pointing out Tothwolf's own claims, and nobody can say how it harasses him. Miami33139 (talk) 03:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Those diffs are from FEBRUARY. Eight months have passed since you edited that article with minor edits. My edit isn't even in the same section of the article. HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THIS HARASS YOU? Miami33139 (talk) 04:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    How about you address these: and your continued removals edits made by User:Ed Fitzgerald? --Tothwolf (talk) 04:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I did. Look further above. None of these have anything to do with you, other than we both edited the same article. Sometimes months apart. This is getting absurd. If I make a minor edit eight months after you make a minor edit, to different sections even, of the same article, this is harassment by your claim. Just go away already. Or take it to Arbcom where they can laugh at you. Eight months. Ridiculous. Miami33139 (talk) 05:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Further, this diff, dated eight months after your edit, which you claim is harassing. Is removing "Billy (music player)" from the list. Which I also did there, on a dab page, and here, on another page. And those were removed because they were useless because moments before "5 November 2009 Jclemens (talk | contribs) deleted "Billy (music player)" Do you understand why ASSUME GOOD FAITH is a policy? Because I was just doing normal cleanup after a normal deletion. You are so paranoid, you think I'm coming after you eight months after you made an edit to some article and go screaming about it to anyone who will listen. It was a minor gnomish edit. THIS is exactly my complaint. I cannot make minor edits after normal Misplaced Pages procedures without hearing howls of harassment from Tothwolf. You have proven my point for me, Tothwolf. Can someone please act on this now? Miami33139 (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Normal cleanup, my rear end. You'll never stop even when links to diffs and histories are presented will you? You'll instead pick out one link that you think you can use to attack me, and attempt to turn the entire discussion into something about that one link. This is the same stuff you did before and it wasn't effective then, so why do you keep doing it? --Tothwolf (talk) 05:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I suggest that as this dispute has been taken to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Hounding of Tothwolf that it would be good for an Admin to archive this as a record to be used in those proceedings. Off2riorob (talk) 14:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Backlog at Special:NewPages

    There is a huge backlog at Special:NewPages, both of unreviewed articles and speedied articles. If some admins and users could pay it some special attention, that would be great. I'm logging off now. A little insignificant 18:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    I'm not an admin but I'll have a look for you. GiantSnowman 20:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Hmmm. Where would the admins be? Not doing work they could be doing? Disappointing.--The Legendary Sky Attacker (talk) 21:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Our paychecks were late so we called a work stoppage. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Unsourced Cooper joker with multiple IP's

    Someone seems to be having fun with the Momentum article.

    I reverted an unsourced nonsense edit by 130.184.198.150 (talk) again. Compare with Special:Contributions/Edwardgraef, Special:Contributions/130.184.198.202, Special:Contributions/130.184.202.172.

    It is always the same edit, by the same person. He has been warned several times, and just continues as if nothing happens.

    Can this be somehow stopped by an administrator? DVdm (talk) 20:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Since rangeblocks and the like is beyond my capabilities I semi-protected the article for a week, hoping the individual will get bored and go play elsewhere. I did review the article edit history, and in two weeks there was only 1 ip edit that wasn't vandalism - so I am fairly confident there is going to be little collateral damage with my action. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks. I always wondered what it is that makes subjects like Momentum, Time, Space and Light so attractive to vandals. Bad physics teachers? Very strange. Anyway, I expect this one Will B. Back in about two weeks. DVdm (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Schoolkids tend to pick articles they read I guess. Either "that's what I'm reading so I'll play with it" (why bother finding some *other* article) or "I'll do something my friends will see" (fun/petty rather than insidious vandalism) or occasionally (extension of #2) "I'll change something to play a joke on next kid who reads it". The forgoing is WP:AGF WP:OR obviously. DMacks (talk) 22:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    User:Equazcion MfD with misleading, poisoning of the well.

    Resolved – No administrative action is required. Ruslik_Zero 12:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Here is WP:Point

    He's used his unhappiness at this; Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:HarryAlffa/ArbCom as a spring board.

    • WP:Civil - quoting out of context
    • Plain untruth - satire not sarcasm
    • Plain untruth - that I've "been attempting to backpedal on that initial stance"

    In short Poisoning the well. HarryAlffa (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Just stating my awareness of this thread for the record. Equazcion (talk) 21:33, 6 Nov 2009 (UTC)
    Equazcion could also practice what they preach.--The Legendary Sky Attacker (talk) 21:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    In response to concern of impropriety, my experience with HarryAlffa began with the bot-posted notification at WP:VPP that Harry had marked Misplaced Pages:Politeness Police as a policy. My comments at his "arbcom" draft deletion discussion came after I had expressed my disapproval of the politeness police page. Equazcion (talk) 21:38, 6 Nov 2009 (UTC)
    Nothing has transpired that requires administrative intervention. Whether Equazicon is "right" or "wrong" with his assessment of Misplaced Pages:Politeness_Police in the MfD will be borne out by the discussion. Shereth 21:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    Equazcion is one of the most open-minded fair individuals I have "met" during my experience here at Misplaced Pages. I saw nothing wrong with his MfD and cant imagine Eq being "uncivil" or trying to unfairly "poison the well" by putting his ideas in an unduly POV spotlight. We need more people like Eq and not ANI threads like this that may discourage or demoralize him or others.Camelbinky (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    I suggest that all editors who, like me, have previous experience with HarryAlffa refrain from participation in this thread. Unfortunately I couldn't make this suggestion without (sort of) breaking it myself. Hans Adler 22:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    I'm an uninvolved editor but I see nothing wrong with the nomination of this essay for deletion. At the risk of angering the Politeness Police, I also assume that this ANI report is retribution for the nomination. -- Atama 23:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    Requesting help of brave admin in merger

    I have been asked to merge the edit histories of User:Dagypt/Gender aspects of globalization in China and User:Angelalhan/Gender aspects of globalization in China into that of the article Gender aspects of globalization in China. I have never done a merge in my life, and I have a horrible feeling that I would create a total mess of the matter. Do any of the rest of you, particularly those who have more experience in mergers, feel up to this? If I don't get an answer in the next day or so, I'll try it myself, but I can't guarantee the results will be pretty. John Carter (talk) 22:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    We cannot have admins causing confusion. That would be just immoral now, wouldn't it?--Sky Attacker the legend reborn... 22:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
    A grossly unhelpful comment, as many of your comments at ANI are today, if you don't actually have anything to add to the discussion, that will help resolve any of issues at hand, please don't say anything at all. Nick (talk) 23:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

    User:Scott Free

    Resolved

    Hi,

    Today User:Brandon posted the following at the above editor's talk page: I have blocked you for one week, I wasn't kidding. Brandon (talk) 23:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC) No template was placed and the block log states: (Block log); 23:27 . . Brandon (talk | contribs) blocked Scott Free (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 week (Disruptive editing: logging out to disrupt User talk:BOZ/RFCU Asgardian draft). I think further explanation is needed as there seems to be no evidence that User:Scott Free was disruptive or that they were warned. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Have you asked Brandon about it? LadyofShalott 00:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Yes. It just seemed irregular to me, no template was used and no warnings had been given - and on the face of it the user doesn't seem to have had anything to do with User talk:BOZ/RFCU Asgardian draft. I cam across this as I am reviewing an artcile for GA ststus that Scott Free has been working on. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks for giving me 8 minutes to respond. Brandon (talk) 00:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Looks like the statement made in the block log is accurate, based on checkuser evidence. Not familiar with the specifics of the case, and short for time, but that much I can say for now. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    OK, but should't a template be used, with information about appeal, etc. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Generally a block template should be used so that an editor can ask for an unblock, yes. In a situation like this you should leave a note for the admin and wait for them to reply rather than bringing it straight here to ANI—it might well just have been an oversight. There's really nothing to be done here and if a block template still needs to be added simply ask Brandon to do that. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Thank you - I hadn't realised that the blocking procedure was so unstructured, I had assumed that there was some sort of due process, which mandated using templates. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Pretty much that's the deal I think, but ultimately the admin has to remember to do it, and some might forget or occasionally be lax in doing so. That's not the end of the world as I believe blocked users also receive a message while blocked as to what to do if they want to request an unblock, but as I said the best thing to do in this situation is just leave a note for the admin in question. No need for any action here so I'm going to mark this resolved. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Given that it's a page in my userspace, and Scott would have been more than welcome to comment as himself (and still is), and that I have now semi-protected the page to prevent further such shenanigans, could I request a lowering of the block? I agree that he should spend some time in the corner for being sneaky, but a week seems like a bit much. BOZ (talk) 01:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    CSD help

    Hi; I have PRODded three articles - I Will Be By Your Side Forever, Manah Sharif and Chondron - as none of them quite fit into any of the CSD criteria. However, I feel that all three ate 110% non-notable and should be speedily deleted; I could backtrack 10% and still be entirely in favour of speedy deletion. What's a boy to do? GiantSnowman 01:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    See WP:DEADLINE. There is no deadline, even for deletion. If we wait 7 days or we wait 7 minutes, the world will not end because of it. Its no big whoop. For the record, the second one doesn't seem to be deletable at all; it seems to be a real settlement or administrative division; unless its a hoax, settlements and administrative divisions are generally acceptable subjects for articles. Even if it should be deleted, PROD is not a substandard process compared to CSD. On the contrary, PROD allows interested editors to spend some time actually fixing problems, and should it turn out that the article gets fixed up to where it is apparent that it shouldn't be deleted, what is the harm in that? --Jayron32 01:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    OK, thanks for the answer, just though I'd check. I'll let the PRODs run their course and, if I need to, take to AfD. Thanks again, GiantSnowman 01:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I agree that the second article Manah Sharif is not deletable and unless GiantSnowman can tell me (feel free to go to my talk page and post there) why I'll take the prod off. Being poorly written and/or written by someone who doesnt know "our way" of doing things is not a reason to delete either through prod or AfD.Camelbinky (talk) 02:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Because the place doesn't seem to exist - I refrained from speedying as a hoax to allow further research, if any can be found, to show that this place exists. GiantSnowman 03:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    It's an romanization of an name from a different writing system... there could be a dozen different spellings. Google results really don't prove the place doesn't exist. We're quite possibly dealing with a language barrier here, I think AFD would be a fairer venue to decide this. --74.138.229.88 (talk) 03:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Camelbinky has said that he can't find anything about this place, "even using a plethora of alternate spellings"...GiantSnowman 03:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Nominating it for speedy deletion after this entire thread seems like a pretty bad call. If it is a hoax it's not a blatant one. A blatant hoax is "Bob is the emperor of France. He's 10 feet tall". You're talking about nuanced tests being run... if you're having to have someone run dozens of alternate spellings through Google, it's reached the point where it needs to be discussed at AFD. --74.138.229.88 (talk) 03:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I would kindly direct you to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Manah Sharif, which another editor just beat me in creating. GiantSnowman 03:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    You would, huh? Except what? --74.138.229.88 (talk) 03:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    "Except what?" what? GiantSnowman 03:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    That's true. This was not a blatant hoax. But we all make mistakes. Live and learn and you'll know for next time.--chaser (talk) 03:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Yes, it's not a blatant hoax, but I still feel it is a hoax nonetheless. However, I'm glad I came here with this - surely, after all, this is what ANI is for? - and I'll know for next time. Thanks for creating the AfD. GiantSnowman 03:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    User:Remember Civility is using an alternate account in contravention of policy

    For reference: Remember Civility (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    I have not blocked this user outright, but this account is editing in direct contravention of the policy on the use of alternate accounts, specifically where it states that alternate accounts should not be used to edit the project space; i.e. anywhere outside of the article space. This policy is reinforced by this Arbcom case where it states that secondary or alternate accounts "are not to be used in discussions internal to the project". I have engaged this account several times and requested that either
    a) they disclose the connection to their main account or
    b) that they only use the account in a way which is acceptable under existing policy, which includes avoiding all editing at the project space.
    Since I have had these discussions with Remember Civility, they have claimed that their main account has never been blocked or banned, and that their alternate account has been not used "abusively"; however these statements are not any defense of the problem, and miss the point. If you check the user's congtribution history, the account exists almost completely to make comments in the project space. They have continued do to so even AFTER I had asked politely to adhere to policy. Before I actually undertake a block, I wanted to open a discussion here to see if a block is warranted, and to clarify the policy in question. Are alternate accounts allowed to exist primarily/solely to comment on Misplaced Pages: prefixed pages (internal project pages)? This seems clear enough to me, but maybe I am misunderstanding something. --Jayron32 03:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    evidence that the account has been notified of this discussion. --Jayron32 03:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Per WP:SOCK, using an alternate account for the purpose of editing project space is prohibited. It may be legitimate to use an undisclosed alternate account to edit articles that might be controversial or embarrassing to an editor who's real life identity is known. That legitimate use is not what's happening here. Clearly, they have created a sock to edit project space, which is prohibited. Therefore, I am soft blocking the alternate account. The editor is welcome to continue contributing through their main account. Jehochman 03:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Thanks Jehochman. I would have done that myself, but I wanted some back-up that it was the right decision. --Jayron32 03:33, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Yes, it's always good to get ask before taking an action, rather than after. The account only had a small number of edits, and the user still has their primary account. There is no reason to link them publicly. (I don't even know the primary.) Hopefully they will quietly go back to using the main account, and there will be no inconvenience to them. Jehochman 03:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Another User:CosmicLegg account

    User:RazerCrane is User:CosmicLegg. 202.108.50.22 (talk) 03:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Well, RazerCrane is obviously a sock of somebody, his contribs history indicates that he obviously had a prior account and has been editing here for some time. What is the connection to CosmicLegg? I'm inclined to block as an obvious sock of someone; but it would be helpful to have some evidence to tie the two accounts together beyond a doubt. --Jayron32 03:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    See User:DavisHawkens. 202.108.50.22 (talk) 03:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Month ov Septembre. 202.108.50.22 (talk) 03:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Afstuv, Meatwod and Meatwood

    These three accounts are pretty clearly controlled by the same user, with a dubious grasp of WP:RS, WP:WAF, WP:GNG. Most of the content they've restored (replacing redirects) has been reverted back to redirects by me and a few other users -- but, with this third account active today, it looks like this person is toeing if not crossing the line when it comes to multiple accounts. No AfD stacking, no multiple-chiming-in on talk pages . . . but, basically a pattern of, "oh, most of my edits have been reverted and I've gotten a lot of talk-page warnings; time to register a new account." I wonder if stomping out these alternate accounts and constraining this editor to a single voice could better compel them to abiding by consensus and policy? Thought I'd broach it here for more-experienced insight. --EEMIV (talk) 04:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Possible compromise of User:Chrisisinchrist's account

    Resolved – Nothing that can be done as of now, worth keeping an eye on--SKATER 07:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Another editor more familiar with Chris' style has suggested to me that his account has been compromised/usurped, since the recent creation of a vanity bio page by this account is uncharacteristic. Could some other eyes have a look? --Orange Mike | Talk 05:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Definitely uncharacteristic. Maybe worth checkuser investigation? Or is that against policy? (forgive me for not knowing checkuser policy...)--Unionhawk 05:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    It wouldn't produce anything anyway. The account had last edited in February, so data for comparison is gone.--chaser (talk) 05:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    No edits since the article was speedied. I'd suggest wait and see. If the account starts producing just speedyable stuff, we can handle it appropriately, then.--chaser (talk) 06:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Agreed it's uncharacteristic, also agree with Chaser so marking as resolved.--SKATER 07:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Defining original research

    More eyeballs, please.

    Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Max_B

    Thanks. JBsupreme (talk) 08:02, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Threat made against editor

    Resolved – Vandal warned, nothing to see here Tan | 39 14:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I wish to report a threat made against User:Orangemike on his talk page from an unsigned IP. I deleted the message but thought it best to report it here.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I wouldn't call it a threat, . Removing it was best, and keeping an eye on future issues. I'll drop an NPA warning. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    By the way, this is the edit in question. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Thank you for your swift response. Death wishes against somebody are always unpleasant and frightening.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    "Eat shit and die" is not a death wish or threat, it's a puerile insult. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I know it's a childish remark, but it's still a nasty thing to put on somebody's talk page, IMO.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    DBpedia spamming infobox templates

    There are apparently several users acting in concert to shove the Template:DBpedia Template template (created by, unsurprisingly DBpedia (talk · contribs) throughout all of the infoboxes on Misplaced Pages. This template is being used by DBpedia as part of its "live-extraction" project, apparently out of some attempt to make it easier for their own website to extract content from Misplaced Pages (rather than doing it on their own systems). Jens Lehmann (talk · contribs), SebastianHellmann (talk · contribs), Aklakan (talk · contribs) are ones that have been identified so far. From DBpedia's page and what I saw on Meta, I do not see anything that supports this as being a valid effort by, nor did I find anything on DBpedia that either encourages or requires this. There are far too many edits being done for just one editor to deal with, and at this point, I believe administrative intervention is needed. Jens Lehmann has already been blocked, but if there are three, there are likely more. They have already infected hundreds of templates. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I've blocked Jens Lehmann and Aklakan indefinitely. Of course, if it turns out that this is legitimate, I'll be happy to unblock them. However, these mass additions of template pages should really be discussed first. TNXMan 15:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Furthermore, I wonder if this is the same user or different users from the same project. TNXMan 15:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    A short notice, would have been enough. We take the concerns of Wikipedians very seriously, so we will stop editing now. We have discussed to include the Template Annotations at the doc pages for months now, especially with Brion Vibber and Daniel Kinzler form Wikimedia. I also talked to about a dozen Wikipedians, who did not subject to this. I will post some more in a minute, but please do not act so fast and listen to me first.SebastianHellmann (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Can you provide links showing these discussions? TNXMan 15:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    (EC) It appears to be multiple users. Two are the names of people listed as contributers to DBmedia. Hellmann is claiming this was done with permission and after talking with two people, but I could not find anything on Wiki to support this claim. The only thing I could find was that they were given access to the live data stream, but not permission to create and flood infobox docs with this template or their links. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Can you unblock the users, there are mybe 4 or 5 total, no more editing will happen until the matter is resolved, but at least they can discuss here.SebastianHellmann (talk) 16:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    The user which I previously blocked have been unblocked. However, I left them a note that they may not add any more template pages until consensus regarding the issue has been reached. TNXMan 17:14, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Okay, I will start collecting the links, please wait. In the future there are plans that DBpedia will directly contribute to the Misplaced Pages tool server soon. There are many other uses and it is not just any project. It is driven by Universities (Leipzig and Berlin) and it has gained quite some renown and serves as the backbone for the LinkedDataCloud see http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/ , which consists completely of open and freely available data sets. SebastianHellmann (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    here: :Links: ] and ] and ]
    On the last one there is a talk about using it for the tool server. More talk about this issue was done with Christian Beckr, especially about geocoordinates.
    Here is a private correspondance with Daniel Kinzler ], it is in German, but we discuss the place for the template annotations. Brion Vibber provided us with the live stream. The use of the Template annotations is quite obvious and are not DBpedia specific. It just unifies the meaning of template properties, so that you can map birthplace, birth_place, bornin and all the other variants to a single meaning. The templates are made to look nice, but the annotations make the machine readable. They are directly comparable to microformats, but as our policy is to ba as minimally invasive as possible, we didn't try to change the templates directly. Although, we discussed it quite long now, we maybe just didn't address the right people. The section with the annotations in the template doc pages is intended to cause as few attention as possible only findable by people who already know where they are (really who looks at a template page?). So the accusation of any form of advertising or spamming does not really hold. If there are any ideas where we could better place these, we are open and will move them somewhere else. Also a place to discuss the further collaboration with Misplaced Pages and DBpedia would be nice. Some users(e.g. andrew dunbar, hippietrail) from the Wikitech-I list where quite enlighted, by the possibilites.SebastianHellmann (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I'm still waiting for a link giving you permission to do these templates. The meta discussions were specific to Meta and only about the onthology pages there. Neither discussion mentions nor gives any implied nor expressed permission to create the templates and put them on every infobox page on Misplaced Pages. A private correspondence with a single editor in German is also not any kind of permission nor validity for the actions taken. There is no collaboration between Wikipdedia and DBpedia, so claims otherwise do not hold. Getting access to the live stream is not uncommon, and like any one else, DBpedia is free to parse Misplaced Pages's data. Expecting that anyone would be allowed to modify Misplaced Pages for your exclusive use to make it easier on you, rather than you properly adjusting your programming, is not something that should be done without extensive community discussion AT Misplaced Pages. As it is, it appears you are simply promoting DBpedia through these actions. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    (outdent) Strikes me that this is a topic for village pump. I cannot, however, imagine that Misplaced Pages would allow templates on Misplaced Pages articles to permit an external agent to expressly pull data. Obviously, the outside project has to write their application to do things correctly, and not require Misplaced Pages to conform to theirs. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    DBpedia is not a website, but a community effort to enrich the encyclopedia Misplaced Pages with structured data. The resulting datasets are available to everyone under the same license as Misplaced Pages and currently used by thousands of users, e.g. for data integration purposes, but also by Misplaced Pages authors to identify inconsistencies and incoherences. The strategy of the DBpedia live extraction, was discussed with Daniel Kinzler and Brion Vibber. In order to support the DBpedia live extraction, Brian e.g. also granted us access to the Misplaced Pages live update stream. The addition of special DBpedia infobox templates to Misplaced Pages was only done to enable the Misplaced Pages authors to better employ DBpedia for increasing the coherence of Misplaced Pages. --Soeren1611 (talk) 16:16, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    It's clear what you are trying to do now. The best place for this discussion would either be at the technical village pump or the village pump (proposals) (as BWilkins mentioned). I would be much more at ease if there were explicit permission given somewhere to allow the creation of the template pages. TNXMan 16:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Just a quick warning since there has already been some miscommunication: The communication seems to be happening primarily with Germans. My limited knowledge of the German Misplaced Pages tells me that they are much more open towards standardisation and uniformisation of articles and connections with external databases. For matters involving the English Misplaced Pages directly DBpedia should take care to discuss here first. Almost nobody reads Meta, and the German Misplaced Pages has its own culture and is basically irrelevant to us. Hans Adler 16:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Once the commmunication glitches have been ironed out, I think this is something that has the potential to help us enormously. Sharing structured information between language wikipedias is an obvious way to get this information to more readers mor efficiently and more reliably.--Kotniski (talk) 19:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Incivilty from TJ Spyke

    TJ Spyke (talk · contribs · count · logs) has a history of incivility and biting new editors. Instead of rambling on about his edits, I'll just provide you with a list of some diffs that prove my claim.

    As you see from the above, TJ's comments are frequently uncivil. We want editors to stick around and help us out, but in many of the above comments, TJ is suggesting that editors he disagrees with should leave Misplaced Pages. I find that completely unacceptable.These diffs only date back to October 20th, 2009.

    TJ Spyke also has been the subject of three behavior-related threads recently.

    • - Here, along with the behavior problem brought up, his comments in the thread were consistently uncivil, and way out of line.
    • - A lot of uncivil comments by TJ there too, besides the problem he was brought there for in the first place.

    iMatthew  at 16:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    • Yes, ignore the fact that almost all of those are in response to incivility and crap from other editors. A large number of those aren't incivil at all. Maybe I should just be like most editors and not leave a edit summary at all (since that is what this section appears to be about, the above editor not liking me being honest in my edit summaries) and not reply to editors comments either. Suggesting others leave? The only time I did that was today, and that was with a editor who has a history of not not following consensus, ignoring when they are proven wrong, and just being a bad editor in general. Maybe I shouldn't have said they should leave, I was trying to make it clear to them that I thought they were a bad editor and was not helping improve Misplaced Pages in any way. TJ Spyke 16:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Wow, a block for violating WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE is definetely warranted.--Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 16:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    The majority of those comments do not violate either of those (and the vast majority of my comments are nicer, iMatthew just picked a few that weren't). I can break down all of those comments if needed, and anybody who was actually aware of those situations would see I was not being uncivil. TJ Spyke 16:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Assuming the editor has already been warned about their inappropriate behaviour (you 'find' it unacceptable because it is unacceptable) then why not put him forward for a block? Maybe a couple of days will reiterate that his behavior is incompatible with what is expected on WP. RaseaC (talk) 16:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    He's been warned about his behavior multiple times, but he clearly doesn't care. iMatthew  at 16:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    No, it's that apparently you disagree on what is uncivil and also that you think I should take crap from other editors and just smile. If someone gives me crap, I will respond firmly (but while remaining civil). Of those comments you cited, I see only 1 or 2 that could be considered uncivil (and those were in response to the other editor being uncivil first). TJ Spyke 16:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Someone else being incivil first doesn't give you the right to also be incivil.--Giants27(Contribs|WP:CFL) 16:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    If he's been warned and continues to do it then this is an open and shut blocking case. As Giants says, he's clearly breached two pretty fundamental policies. RaseaC (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    • Other editors being incivil to you does not allow you to be incivil back. The majority of the editors you claim to be incivil to you were provoked by your treating them poorly in the first place. All of the comments I showed above may not have been hardcore incivil, but all of them create an unwelcoming and poor environment, which isn't what we want on Misplaced Pages. iMatthew  at 16:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    We're not discussing whether or not you have been uncivil, it is clear you have and if you are unable to understand that then we have a serious problem. You absolutely are supposed to take incivility on the chin, reacting with incivility is completely the wrong approach, is very childish and makes you as bad as the first editor, so that defense doesn't wash. Finally, whether or not iMattew cherry-picked these contributions or not is irrelevant, the fact that there are that many in less than a month is a real issue and one that either you need to address yourself or the community will have to address for you. RaseaC (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I've seen more than enough to block, but AGF that the editor will have learned from this discussion, I've issued a uw-npa4im. Any more incivility and a long block is in order. Mjroots (talk) 17:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    TJ Spyke has stated that he will be more careful with his words in future. If that is the case there will be no need to block. Mjroots (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Urgent! Last call for votes: AUSC October 2009 elections

    There's only one day to go! The Audit Subcommittee election, using SecurePoll, closes at 23:59 (UTC) 8 November. Three community members will be appointed to supervise use of the CheckUser and OverSight tools. If you wish to vote you must do so urgently. Here's how:

    For the Arbitration Committee, — RlevseTalk16:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Fake ESCA "guideline" spamming

    Count Iblis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is spamming his new Template:ESCA onto many physics article talk pages; the template falsely portrays his essay Misplaced Pages:Editing scientific articles as a guideline and insists that editors follow it. He has reverted my removals of the template from some articles on my watch list where I took it out. This essay arose during arguments with Brews ohare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), an editor now banned from all physics-related articles and discussions, and whose side Count Iblis took in these disputes, in an attempt to tip disputes in favor of editors with good arguments from first principles, as opposed to arguments supported by reliable sources. He has not had a lot of support in turning this essay into a guideline, so should be stopped from spamming it around and portraying it as one. Dicklyon (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    See also Wikipedia_talk:Editing_scientific_articles#new_ESCA_template_being_spammed_across_physics_talk_page and User_talk:Count_Iblis#ESCA_template. Dicklyon (talk) 18:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I have warned the user. Pushing an essay as something more is disruptive, pure and simple. The fact that this is coming on the heels of the Rfar is not promising. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    This essay has absolutely nothing to do with Brews Ohare and the speed of light Arbcom case. I note that Dicklyon was heavily involved big edit wars with Brews Ohare and he simply cannot think objectively about this essay (apart from him being wrong about the origins of the essay).
    I have added the template to thise few articles where sticking to the guidelines is absolutely necessary for very good reasons. The template can be removed if there is no consensus for it as apparently happened on the special relativity page. I request Dicklyon to stay out of the article on the Scharnhort article, because precisely there a new text is going to be added in the near future which requires the kind of discussions that Dicklyon apparently does like (see recent speed of light talk page discussion with him about the Scharnhorst effect in which he was too lazy to even read the relevant source).
    In conclusion, I'm not spamming rather only including the template on those few pages where it is essential to stick to the guidelies. E.g., I added it to the entropy talk page, because I'm writing a new verion of that article off-line and I forsee discussions on the talk page which, given the history of that page, requires precisely these guidelines. Count Iblis (talk) 18:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    It is not a guideline. That you think it is important to stick to is all well and good, but it's an essay. Unless the talk page community agrees that yes, there should be an essay linked to on the top of those articles, you shouldn't be edit warring to keep them in. You can't order or request other editors to stay off pages. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Agreed, we can change the wording "guideline" to something else. I think though that Dickyon has been behaving in an aggressive way here, by calling what I did "spamming", even though it was added to a limited number of pages and by also removing it from pages where he is not directly involved in. Count Iblis (talk) 18:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Editors are – or should be – encouraged to openly discuss how they believe that Misplaced Pages's goals can be accomplished (and its policies best followed) in the context of articles which may fall within their own areas of expertise. I have no quarrel with that, and there's no harm in editors writing essays (userspace or not) which distill, encapsulate, or generalize their advice and experience. Furthermore, it's generally legitimate (and often helpful) to refer to such essays in talk page discussions. Essays serve the dual purposes of offering a clear presentation of principles, and of avoiding the need for repetition of similar concepts across multiple talk pages.
    That said, one thing that editors shouldn't be doing is what we find in the usage of Template:ESCA. It's not appropriate to privilege the opinions of one, or a few, editors in a talk page hatnote (, , , , , , ), nor is it appropriate to imply that an essay has the force of a widely-accepted and -endorsed Misplaced Pages guideline. The hatnotes should be removed from the talkpages, as they portray an importance and an authority that isn't rooted in any Misplaced Pages policy, process, or practice.
    Where relevant, Count Iblis is welcome to announce WP:ESCA in an ordinary talk page comment, in a new section at the bottom of the talk page, just as any other editor is free to do. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Would it be ok. to add the template later on a talk page if most editors there agree with that? That's nore or less what I argued for on the NOR talk page. Basically my thinking here is that the regulars on the policy pages are more concerned about what happens on the politics pages which are far more prone to edit warring. This stops progress in policy development that would benefit the science articles. This means that an essay like the one I wrote can never become part of official policy. Therefore we need to think in the direction of "local policy making". Count Iblis (talk) 19:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    As an additional point, it's definitely not a good idea to edit war to add one's homebrewed hatnotes. Count Iblis is up against the edge of 3RR at Talk:Scharnhorst effect: , , , . TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    {{ESCA}} needs to be removed from the article talk pages that it has been transcluded to. Is there any reasonable use of this template ? if not, it should perhaps be taken to WP:TFD. Count Iblis and others are free to refer to the essay in their talk page comments, when relevant. Abecedare (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    It has been, except at Scharnhorst effect where the edit warring is occuring (and it has now been removed from there again) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 19:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Reply to TenOfAllTrades: I'm not going to revert any more. The only reason why I reverted there and not on other pages had to do with the nature of that page (first principle discussions absolutely necessary).

    Reply to Abecedare: Sticking to the guidelines is abolutely necessary on technical wiki pages, such as Relations between heat capacities. I understand that the regulars on the policy pages do not appreciate this and that as a result you cannot propose the necessary policy changes. But this then calls for "local policy making". Count Iblis (talk) 19:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Count Iblis, I have no objection to you writing an essay and presenting it as your POV; however presenting it as a policy, guideline, or even "local policy" is deceptive, and not an acceptable alternative. Please see WP:Policies and guidelines for the accepted use of those terms on wikipedia. If we each start defining our own meanings for such terminology, we end up talking past each other and collaboration becomes impossible. Abecedare (talk) 19:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    All else aside we should not be putting messages to our editors at the top of the article, that is what talk pages are for. Chillum 19:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    For clarity, Iblis was placing his hatnotes at the top of the article talk pages, not the articles themselves. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Rfp template

    I have an idea for the template {{Rfp}}. This idea would automatically put one's signature on a user's request for permission. {{subst:rfp|USERNAME|(optional statement)}} ~~~~ is the current way to do a request for permission. My idea would reduce it to {{subst:rfp|USERNAME|(optional statement)}}. To do this, I would put <noinclude><nowiki></noinclude>~~~~<noinclude></nowiki></noinclude> at the end of the template. This method would also work for other templates. Would you tell me if this is a good idea? Also tell me if this is the wrong place for this message. Thank you.  Btilm  18:31, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Firstly, the place to ask about such things is at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical), or possibly at Misplaced Pages:Help desk; either place has people watching it with template expertise. Secondly, in my opinion autosigning templates are a horrible botch - they seem like a good idea, but they break on any signature that contains "|" or "=", and many other things will result in bad formatting. Thirdly, while we're on the general subject, I don't think your own signature is a good idea - six lines just to make an oval, however tasteful an oval it is, is probably too much. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    It doesn't seem ridiculously lengthy (we have had a few examples of folks going really overboard recently, as I recall), and it is tasteful. I use Chrome on the Mac and it renders fine for me without the browser specific style; you'd save quite a bit of space by omitting the Mozilla and WebKit instructions? Just a suggestion. As to the autosigning idea, wp:vpt would be the proper venue, although I suspect the technical reasons Gavia raised would indeed prevent that change. user:J aka justen (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    In order for me to make my signature, I have to substitute it from user:btilm/signature, which is fully protected. Do you think I should just transclude it?  Btilm  19:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Transclusion is not permitted, and substitution is discouraged. user:J aka justen (talk) 19:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Make a simpler signature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.201.224 (talk) 21:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Disruptive editing by User:Neuromancer

    User:Neuromancer has a consistent pattern of disruptive editing and talk page-inappropriate discussion, most problematically at HIV and Talk:HIV, and as another editor has stated, has "violated nearly every behavioral policy this site has". This user has repeatedly demonstrated an agenda of disrupting HIV-related articles with fringe viewpoints with no substantiation in RS. Despite extensive policy explanations and warnings from other editors, Neuromancer continues to pursue this course, including creating POV forks (HIV dissent, later re-directed, and Alternative HIV viewpoints, currently at AfD) containing synthesis, BLP violations and other problems. The user has been blocked previously for WP:3RR and given multiple warnings at the user talk page and on article talk pages by a large number of editors.

    Neuromancer has also contributed several copyright violations, cutting and pasting from copyrighted sources without quoting or citing. This edit contains nine paragraphs copied verbatim from avert.org and a sentence and references copied from another website without citation. Warnings and explanations (Talk:HIV#Copyright_violations_by_Neuromancer, ) were ignored, with the user later performing another unreferenced copy and paste from a copyrighted website.

    Neuromancer, after threatening to wikistalk ("However, I will be sure to peruse EVERY edit to EVERY article you have contributed to, just on the off chance you have somehow detracted from those articles as well"), has begun to make good on this threat by becoming engaged at Magnetic water treatment (an article on my watchlist), Cancell (an article contributed to by User:MastCell, ) and Medical uses of silver, following talk page interactions, including an accusation of censorship, with a regular silver editor, User:Hipocrite. Each of these editors has warned Neuromancer about a variety of behaviours in the past, with invariably hostile response. The diversity and scope of Neuromancer's disruptions suggests that intervention could be appropriate. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I'll add my voice, as an involved editor/admin, to the request for some outside eyes here. Neuromancer (talk · contribs) has been active in pressing an AIDS-denialist agenda across numerous articles (representative edit). Issues include:
    • Persistent edit-warring (block log)
    • Canvassing potentially sympathetic editors (), , , ).
    • Most of his non-HIV-related edits seem to be based on Wikihounding; as Keepcalm points out, they're drawn from the contrib histories of editors with whom Neuromancer has been in conflict (followed Hipocrite (talk · contribs) to Dennis Ketcham (), etc).
    • Creation of numerous POV forks, including Alternative HIV viewpoints and HIV dissent.
    • This sort of thing - not that I'm fussed about having my IQ questioned - it's probably barely above room temperature anyway - but it's a bit grating coming from someone who's constantly accusing others of personal attacks and failure to assume good faith.
    • Constant references to a "WP:HIV cabal", by which Neuromancer presumably means editors who hold the "POV" that HIV causes AIDS.
    • Very basic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT - despite extensive forum-shopping, and hearing a universal rejection of his proposed edits, Neuromancer keeps repeating the same arguments (see the last 5 or 6 threads at Talk:HIV for examples). He's indicated that he's "not going to stop" just because a "cabal" opposes his edits.
    • He's cut-and-pasted a long section from an AIDS-denialist website, and then complained of having "hours of research" erased when this was reverted (will find diffs).
    I would like some outside eyes on the situation, if anyone's willing. I don't want to be melodramatic, but these are the sorts of challenges that Misplaced Pages needs to handle effectively if it ever hopes to achieve its goal of becoming a serious, respectable reference work. MastCell  21:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Having looked at the diffs, talk pages, and assorted miscellany included here, this looks like a case of POV-pushing, with some intransigent statements by Neuromancer. I fear that this is just a continuation of a problem we've seen several times here over the last few weeks (and probably longer) where people with a strong, but minority or fringe POV feel like they are backed into a corner by consensus against them. While I'm not sure that their behaviour is indicative of a block, is there someone who would be willing (and more knowledgeable than I in these particular subjects) to work with Neuromancer to help them understand why their view is fringe and that this isn't personal, its just community consensus that happens to disagree with what they believe? I would also appreciate hearing from both Neuromancer, MastCell, and Hipocrite about their opinions.
    On a semi-related note, how do we allow users such as Neuromancer to feel like they have been given an adequate opportunity to have their point of view heard and discussed and not simply swatted out of the air (not that this has happened here...but can happen very easily). While their points of view may be fringe, and not follow community consensus, how do we continue to honour their contributions while maintaining the integrity of WP, and without driving them away?
    I'll return to this conversation a little later...its supper time! Frmatt (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I would agree that Neuromancer has been resistant to guidance, and has been very confrontational at times. The exchanges on Talk:HIV have been lengthy, but I do think some have been constructive - they've dealt with substantive issues, and resulted in edits that improved the article (only incrementally, though). I have not followed the activity outside Talk:HIV, but those diffs are disheartening. The WP culture takes some getting used to, and plunging into HIV was probably a mistake for a new editor. I'd like to see Neuromancer get some guidance, to understand the difference between disagreement and conspiracy. It's tiring and disruptive when an editor insists that others formally prove numerous well-established concepts that are already supported by reliable sources. -- Scray (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I assume that I can weigh in on this conversation?
    • First and foremost, I have edited in good faith, with the intent to better the Misplaced Pages in general.
    • Secondly, I am not trying to push a fringe POV. This is my understanding, please correct me if I am mistaken...
    • Wikipolicy requires at WP:NPOV that “All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.” It further requires at WP:YESPOV that “Article content should not be deleted solely on the grounds that it is "POV"" and that "The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints.”
    That being said, I have also reviewed WP Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which states:
    • Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.
    I fully understand that there are those who think that questioning the science behind HIV is ridiculous and worthy of censoring, however, there are those in the scientific community, who have published peer reviewed papers, questioned many aspects of HIV, AIDS, and the connection between the two. While the cabal currently editing the HIV and AIDS denialism articles claims a NPOV, and that they do not have to give equal eight to fringe POV, a simple review of their resistance to the inclusion of balanced information, whether it be in those articles, or in separate articles, seems very clear that they are not willing to be neutral on the subject.
    As far as "Wikistalking" as Hipocrite has accused me of, I cannot even begin to express how petulant that statement is. While I will admit that I have reviewed other editors contributions, and even weighed in on a couple of the articles that they have been involved in, I am not now, nor have I ever, edited an article simply to "frustrate" another editor. This accusation was posted to my talk page by Hipocrite just this morning. While I do tend to have an interest in alternative health treatments, such as HIV, cancer, etc, I have also edited such articles as the Fort hood shooting. I think it is an unfair characterization to say that I am stalking anyone.
    When it comes to canvassing... I fail to see how mentioning to another editor that a discussion is taking place that they may be interested in, is somehow a bad thing. I in fact copied this practice from such editors as Verbal and Hipocrite, who routinely post messages on one another's talk pages requesting input regarding a particular topic of debate throughout the Wiki. I have not requested that they take a particular viewpoint, merely that they have expressed interest in the topic in the past, and may be interested in the current conversation. Here is the most recent example I can readily find
    I have not cut and pasted long sections from denialist web sites. I did take a list of factors known to cause false positive HIV antibody tests, which had 64 references, and use it in the site, and the original compiler was given credit. The references did not have any DOI or PMID information, let alone being suitable for Wiki formatting. Each and every one of those references was researched, updated, verified to be on point, and formated by me. I would call that hours of research.
    As far as the "creation of numerous POV forks... I cannot agree with that. I have created 3 articles here. 2 on the topic of HIV. Initially, I un-forwarded HIV dissent and created article content there. That was nominated for deletion, and reverted back to a forward, the next day, prior to a discussion or consensus being reached. So I then created a new namespace, Alternative HIV viewpoints, where I published relatively the same article, which has also been nominated for deletion. Again, prior to the AfD discussion closing, the article was wiped and forwarded, and for trying to prevent this, I received a 24 hour ban. How is consensus and discussion supposed to take place when there is no article to discuss?
    So, salient points:
    • Always in good faith...
    • Been Bold
    • Ignored all rules, except for personal attacks. (Never have I personally attacked an editor)
    • Modified behavior as users have brought potential violations to my attention.
    Neuromancer (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I hope someone realizes that it is highly coincidental that a user who has edited what - 5 mainspace articles has somehow overlapped and edit-warred against people he has disagreements with on 4 of them - and those 4 are in totally disparate subjects, with the note that he has expressed an interest in a 5th, totally disparate subject here. How far does AGF go? Hipocrite (talk) 23:29, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Actually, Colloidal Silver has been used in Alternative HIV and Cancer treatments. It is not, as you say, "disparate." I have not intentionally edit warred with anyone. After it was brought to my attention, I changed my behavior. I have been involved in edit controversy in HIV and Alternative HIV Viewpoints. If there is another article you think is relevant, please list it. Neuromancer (talk) 23:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    User: DaleEastman, rapidfire blanketing, vote fixing

    For the past 18 hours or so, there's been a substantial bulk article editing going on involving User:DaleEastman and his mysterious counterpart 74.248.35.168. Puppet issue? Half of it. Other half is attempted vote fixing, disruption, article edit blanketing, some personal harassment. I admit it's a moderately weak case on both halves but combined it's impossible to deal with... that and none of the CU criteria currently apply.

    I accidentally ran into this situation on the categories for deletion board while I was exceedingly bored last evening. Ok, minor vote fixing. Not huge but it'll set up the rest! Take this CfD here. First seen a 'keep' vote without disclosing authorship of the category here, followed later by a comment in the exact same tone as earlier with another 'keep' vote here. Upon inspecting the contributions of each , besides the very obvious shared articles of choice, note the time the edits on DaleEastman ends and immediately picks up on the 74.x ... which happened just after a rather nasty comment finishing a conversation on his talk page here. I left XfD deletion and NPA lvl3 warnings on the user's talk page as each was a least a 2nd offense just that evening.

    I guess I should get to the created category of contention. In the past day this user has taken the time to clear the CfD tag off 3 times. Oh wait, actually it's the "user' first and the IP the later two. Now, I can handle the new category. Sure, I admit I suggested for deletion based on redundancy and the fact it's not ever spelled correctly. I know you can CSD-C2 for that but the discussion was already up. Since we can't rename it just yet, figured I'd see what was tagged so that it was actually accurate. Well, not so much. Since this a political and religious firestorm of a topic I decided to set really really basic guidelines on vandalism cleanup. Since the category is for "Islamist" activity, I figured I'd be generous and search for "Islam" generically on the marked articles. I caught about 10 or so total (40% ro so), some with other disruptive, inciting, hoax information that I figured also needed to go. After all of that, I left extremely polite messages on the user talk page of User talk:Sherurcij and User talk:DaleEastman telling them what I'd done. These two had apparently "started" it all with the original CfD nomination and had done some sporadic hit-and-run edit warring across a number of pages.


    It's just continuing this afternoon from the IP, tagging and minor edits some places, but most of that has been caught by patrols. It's been more the rather depressing attack toward me and last. I was a tad overzealous in my last post there, I confess, but given how much civility I'd given up to that point I didn't quite know how to react. I really did go far, far out of my way to try to reach for some good faith and stay on the fence on his sensitive Terrorism issue. The only good part of my coming in last night was that this user stopped wikistalking and User Serurcij who apparently focuses in articles of captured terror suspects, apparently. I don't care for either end of that argument and I did everything I could think of to just use policy in my changes.

    To top it off for today, how about some random biting back from a welcome template here Um. Any help would be appreciated. The one polite thing I will say about both DaleEastman and the IP is that they didn't vandalize my user page. Sherurcij isn't 100% innocent from disruption either with some somewhat-heated talk page hitting, but very mild comparatively. My guess about DaleEastman was he got somewhat upset about an article probation warning on an article he created. Maybe that would have been a little too obvious. Anyway, they both seem highly politically-motivated with long and highly-focused edit histories and past admin intervention on different things, but DaleEasman and Mr 74.x have been quite... disruptive (and I have no idea if there are more IPs; some looked suspicious but I wanted to get to this). The IP seems to have taken a break and has added a red link for a new category "Terrorism by type", well, I'd rather not have to spend a few more hours on this.

    Thanks! daTheisen(talk) 20:48, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I undid the removal of the CFD template and blocked 74.248.35.168 (talk) as a disruptive and obvious sock of DaleEastman (talk · contribs). I'll also add a warning to DaleEastman's page. If the disruption or socking resumes, please report it back here, but could you please keep it shorter next time ? Abecedare (talk) 21:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Understood. I haven't figured out how to be brief yet and am used to RfCs and the like. Thanks! daTheisen(talk) 21:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    legal threats by 76.238.28.61

    see here Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:01, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Blocked, but not by me. TNXMan 21:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Inappropriate WP:OWNing of an article by User:William M. Connolley

    I'd like an uninvolved admin to take a look at this. WMC stating he is just going to wait for other editors to get fed up and stop editing. WMC refactoring other people's talk edits. WMC telling other editors to leave. WMC telling other editors to leave, again. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 21:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I think that this was ill-advised, and I'd encourage WMC not to do it again. The other edits do not appear problematic; perhaps slightly less civil than is optimal, but nothing beyond what's normal in heated talk page discussions. Steve Smith (talk) 21:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Okay. ---Irbisgreif-(talk | e-mail)-(contribs) 21:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    The complaintant may be violating WP:POINT, but WMC has been WP:OWNing the article for some time, continually removing tags without consensus, and reverting attempts to change the article in any way, or even to clarify inclusion criteria. He has had consensus for some of his edits. (I admit to arguing for deletion in the AfD, and have been opposed to WMC in some disputed edits, but agreeing with him in others. I don't consider him agreeable, but WP:CIVIL is not in question here.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Harassing and WP:POINT violations by Irbisgreif

    The above complaint needs a bit more context. About two weeks ago, Irbisgreif nominated List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming for deletion for the 4th (sic - the article was nominated also under a previous name) time . He/she claimed POV and BLP violations. All previous nominations failed as clear keep, this one failed as no consensus. The article was taken to DRV, where (s)he again claimed BLP problems with the article multiple times. The DRV was closed as an endorse. Shortly after that, his/her BLP concerns seem to have vanished, and (s)he created Category:Scientists Opposing The Mainstream Scientific Assessment Of Global Warming and populated it with a large number of people, in clear violation of WP:BLPCAT. WMC and I removed the unsourced categorizations, and I nominated the category for deletion. Now Irbisgreif has initiated a completely spurious sockpuppet case against WMC involving several long-term and established editors. I have to say that my good faith has been stretched beyond breaking point... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Yep, this is utter drivel on Ig's part. Having tried and failed to delete the article, Ig now wants to fiddle around with it, or create an entire categrory around it, or who knows exactly what. But improving the encyclopaedia doesn't seem to be one of Ig's goals. The only thing Stephan fails to note in the above is that the DR was an abuse of process and done on entirely spurious grounds William M. Connolley (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Actually, that addition is not the case. There had been a change in the deletion policy, to make "no consensus" in a BLP matter default to "delete", instead of to "keep". There is clear consensus that the article is about living persons, although not for or against the statement that there are any prsent BLP violations. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Actually, there has been no such change. A much weaker change is being discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Deletion policy#Default_to_delete_for_BLPs and clearly rejected by the community. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Please give it time and return to bickering and battling in a week.

    I'd like to thank Steve Smith for discouraging WMC from blanking out talk page comments (particularly, mine). Other than that, I'd like to encourage administrators to ignore this mess. These editors are all passionate about their viewpoints (as am I), and we're all suspicious of each other (and some of us have more reason to be than others), and we're all cranky (including me). My view is that Irbisgreif shouldn't have formed the category recently. I agree with WMC; that was weird. Don't know what got into him. My view is that WMC and KimDabelsteinPetersen shouldn't have blanked out my talk page comment. That was beyond weird. Don't know what got into them. Irbisgreif also shouldn't have started that sockpuppetry case. That was really strange. You've been a naughty group of very naughty, naughty editors, and I don't think any of you have clean hands (except me, of course). Maybe you're all really the same person and you're acting in such overtly bizarre ways in order to scare away anyone rational (like me, of course). By the way, I do agree agree at the moment with basic premise of this AN/I notice. I think WMC and the "group" referred to in my blanked talk page posts really are violating WP:OWN in addition to WP:BATTLE. However, I'm willing to admit to the possibility that my view may be influenced by recent events during the AfD and deletion review, like WMC's unfounded accusations of bad faith when I contacted him on his talk page. That was weird. In summary, I hope administrators do nothing and editors keep away for a week and try to de-weirdify. Flying Jazz (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Vandal encouraging illegal activities

    User:Eagleslova21 - Encouraging readers to produce cocaine on their recently-made vandalism article. Thewtfchronicles (talk) 21:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Here's said article. Thewtfchronicles (talk) 21:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    WP:AIV is probably a more appropriate venue than AN/I, although I, personally, would only list them at AIV if they continue to vandalise, however you may decide to list them now. However I don't really think this is a discussion for AN/I Spitfire 21:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    (edit conflict) Deleted. If they continue to vandalize, please report them to AIV. TNXMan 21:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    block review

    I have found it necessary to block an editor for 48 hours for repeatedly adding a defamatory link to multiple pages. The rationale for doing so is on my talk page, at & the link in its edit history. a few edits before that. I have asked two other admin to check my work, and their supporting comments are on the user talk page . Since the editor involved persists in considering me prejudiced, I mention it here. If any admin so considers it , they are at liberty to remove the block. Alternatively, any admin is also welcome to extend it, if they agree with me that this editor's conduct here has become a personal vendetta against the subject of the article involved, based on off wiki events . DGG ( talk ) 22:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    It certainly seems OK to me. You gave fair warning and they didn't stop. TNXMan 22:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Explicit threats of violence

    Yeah, they're probably a joke. Yeah, it's probably just a vandal. Anyway, I just thought I should toss it up here anyway to see if people agree with me, because I simply don't think this is obvious enough for one person to make a decision. 89.243.191.126 (talk · contribs) made a couple fairly explicit threats of violence, between two of the edits giving both victims and a location where the violence will occur. and Someguy1221 (talk) 22:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    I blocked them and if someone would like to report it to the proper authorities, I think that would be a good step. Mentioning names and places is too specific too ignore. TNXMan 22:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    I don't have the contacts/info to report this (I presume a checkuser would?) but the school referred to is likely to be Queens Park Community School, in Brent (not Queens Park High School, which is in Chester). The school can be contacted by email on info@qpcs.brent.sch.uk (published on their website), but of course it's sunday here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Does anybody know if a checkuser if being done on this? It probably is worth forwarding it to the authorities and I guess the IP alone would be enough info but it would be worth seeing what a checkuser throws up. RaseaC (talk) 23:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

    Don't know. The IP address geolocates to Waterloo, which is in central London south of the river. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Just a note that since this is an IP editing, there is nothing for a checkuser to do since a checkuser's only task is to look at IPs of a logged in account, not handle matters involving IP threats of violence. MBisanz 23:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    As the IP specifically refers to something about a pupil being Somalian in one, and black in the other, I could use the Met's online hate crime reporting tool, but does someone else have a more direct route? If not, I will do that and email the school - although both might come better from a Misplaced Pages email address. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    No one has a more direct route. And no one like the checkusers has a Misplaced Pages email. It is all up to individual editors to decide what they will and will not do. MBisanz 00:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
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