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Revision as of 16:42, 8 December 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Gibraltar. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Justin talk 13:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

For information, the countries listed on the UN list of dependent territories was originally compiled based upon nominations by nation states. Gibraltar and other territories are listed because the UK listed them, not because the UN compiled a list as you assert. This means for example that territories such as Tibet, are not listed. It is also a fact that the territory of Gibraltar is self-governing, that the Spanish Government disputes this is immaterial. Justin talk 13:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

CANVAS

See WP:CANVAS soliciting other editors to campaign in support of your proposals is disruptive. Please stop. Justin talk 15:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Please believe me: I do not even know what canvassing means. I didn't know that a newcomer could not ask for advice from more experienced editors with some interest in the article he/she is trying to edit. Then, how am I supposed to learn? Did you learn everything about WP by yourself (because asking for advice would have been disruptive)? What do you recommend then? I know what I'll do: ask you for advice. That way you will not get suspicious and will be able to prove that you are able to help a newcomer in spite of him contradicting your view (for the sake of WP itself). What would you do in my place? If someone recently inserted a very significant (unreferenced) statement in the introduction of an important article, and you thought that it was biased, and that it should be undone until a new consensus was reached? --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Frankly I don't believe your protestations of innocence. You were not asking for advice, you were trying to recruit someone you thought might be sympathetic to your position. The statement is not unreferenced, it isn't biased but what what you're trying to impose is. Justin talk 16:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Where is the statement referenced? --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW, now that I have read about canvassing, I see that there is a difference between appropriate "friendly notice" and "inappropriatte canvassing". I would not say that just one post explicitly stating my position and asking for advice was "canvassing"... I insist, please, assume my good faith... --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

And btw claiming to be a newcomer, when you have already demonstrated in-depth knowledge of wiki processes, is frankly stretching credibility. Justin talk 15:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Ha ha! Thank you very much! I don't deserve this! ;) I have only spent about 4 hours editing WP (really, I haven't had that much time during the last few years...). I hope that taking a look at my activity will bring you out of your (otherwise complimentary) mistake. --Imalbornoz (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

August 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Gibraltar. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. It is worth noting you have been warned about this behaviour previously. I would not be surprised if you were reported still. --Narson ~ Talk • 12:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Verifiability

The relevant standard for a citation is verifiability, see WP:V, provided it is a reliable source WP:RS, then it is perfectly acceptable. You cannot reject a citation simply because you don't like it. And I see we've been edit warring again.

Also please stop using my talk page as your soap box. Thank you. Justin talk 15:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I note sarcastic comments about citing Hassans as a source. They are a large firm of international lawyers based in Gibraltar, if they say Gibraltar is Gibraltar is "self-governing tax-effective, well regulated, well placed and well developed." it is more significant than anything you read in the Spanish press, You might wish to read the following link:

• http://www.iberianlawyer.com/content/view/1087/44/

--Gibnews (talk) 21:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Gib

You could try here (but note, responders tend to reply there and won't come to the Gib talk page itself). Phrase the question concisely and neutrally, and if others there agree with you and you want to press it you will have more weight. If they agree with the others you probably should let it go. You will probably get the regular crowd following you like flies round the brown stuff. If they attempt to attack you personally with tendentious this and disruptive that, let me know. I'll add a comment in your defence. BTW if you want to see what you're letting yourself in for arguing with some of these people, see Someone even spent their weekend writing a tool to plot a graph of the edits to show that I was tendentiously editing. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 23:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Gib

Read intro of article Falkland Islands. Equally contested; could be a guide. Seb az86556 (talk) 09:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

ledes

Hmmm... the guideline has changed since I last saw it... it used to clearly say that ledes didn't need citations as long as the information was discussed and cited elsewhere in the article... now it hedges and says it depends on the article. In any case, I don't think we need to cite the fact that Gibraltar is self-governing, or mention the exception in the first sentence. The purpose of the opening sentence is simply to identify what the topic of the article is... in this case to say what Gibraltar is in a very broad sense.

As a way to break your stalemate... Perhaps a better solution would be to start with a geographical identification, rather than a political one... something like "Gibraltar is a peninsular mountain, located at the mouth of the Mediterranian Sea."... then, later in the lede you can mention "It is self-governing, except in matters of defense". Just a suggestion. Blueboar (talk) 16:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

CANVAS

These comments are disruptive Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted and which espouse a certain point of view. Remember to respect Misplaced Pages's principle of consensus. This is your second warning. Please stop. RedCoat10 • talk 09:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, please stop posting the same thread in multiple forums per WP:MULTI. The centralised discussion should be taking place at Talk:Gibraltar. Thankyou, RedCoat10 • talk 09:09, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that asking for a personal opinion is CANVASsing. I also think that posting messages to two editors who have been involved in related discussions is not "indiscriminate cross-posting". I would think that CANVASsing is related to indiscriminately urging many users to participate in a discussion, isn't it? On the other hand, I would say that repeated false accusations can amount to Harassment.

Are you sure you want to enter this level of discussion? It will only make us angrier, it will consume time, and all for nothing. Come on, let's look for a consensus solution for the sake of the Gibraltar article.--Imalbornoz (talk) 09:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

No, your behaviour amounts to canvassing and can be considered disruptive. According to WP:CANVASS "indiscriminately sending announcements to uninvolved editors is considered "talk-page spamming" and therefore disruptive." Here you invite a user to the NPOV noticeboard and your postings are a clear breach of WP:MULTI. I also want to end this dispute once and for all, but it's becoming increasingly hard when you're intent on creating discussions in separate places and not informing editors at Talk:Gibraltar. RedCoat10 • talk 09:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

For info technically its a third warning, there is in addition to my comments above regarding canvassing on the English wikipedia, there is also a warning on Talk:Gibraltar for canvassing on es.wikipeda. I think we can assume you are familiar with the policy. You are canvassing, you are indiscriminately cross-posting and claiming "harassment" is demonstrating bad faith - the comments made about you are not harassment. You received a 3RR warning for edit warring, you've received a warning about canvassing because thats what you're doing.

No one has taken up the med cab case for an obvious reason, on the NPOV noticeboard you were told it was fine, the RS noticeboard resolved the case with no action - clearly you are violating WP:MULTI. I also note that in posts on talk pages you have reverted to your original position claiming the comments are "controversial", clearly they aren't as multiple sources confirm. You talk of wanting consensus, the discussion on Talk:Gibraltar went nowhere because of your conduct there and now you're reverting to your original position. Justin talk 09:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have to say, RedCoat, that I think your behaviour is verging on harassment. This is your first warning. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 09:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I've only asked him/her to to centralise the discussion and stop asking editors for their opinion on seperate talk pages. Please assume good faith. I've just looked at Misplaced Pages:Harrassment and haven't made any threats or intimidated Imalbornoz. Please read WP:HA#NOT and reconsider your accusation. Thanks, RedCoat10 • talk 09:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

What is the point in centralising the discussion when it's perfectly obvious what the Gibraltar cabal will do? You will attack him continuously, accuse him of this and that, until he goes away. Did you notice that Blueboar, to whom Imalbornoz asked his question, actually came up with a good proposal? You probably didn't because you're too busy hounding Imalbornoz. (FYI, the solution was, keep the first sentence geographical (as it used to be before you changed it), move the politics to a later sentence in the lead, with the qualifier about internal affairs). Of course, we all know that this will not be acceptable to everyone on the talk page. "Giving in" to Imalbornoz is not going to happen now, is it, because it's gone beyond a sane discussion. It's personal now. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 09:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not personal and I did respond to Blueboar. Just because I disagree with a proposal doesn't mean I'm not interested in finding common ground or reaching a consensus. However, I can't understand how we can have a coherent debate if it's spread across a number of seperate user talk pages and two noticeboards. Once again, I'm asking you kindly to retract your accusation of harrassment which was completely uncalled for. Thank you, RedCoat10 • talk 10:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

To RHoPF, it is not harassment, your comments about other editors are nevertheless a naked personal attack and I would suggest you withdraw them. You often claim to be trying to achieve consensus but your comments and personal attacks escalate matters unnecessarily. Justin talk 09:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

WQA

Hello, Imalbornoz. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Justin talk 21:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

'Tarring with the same brush' means that someone is over-generalising and suggesting that everyone is identical based on some artificially chosen criteria. So in that debate he had decided that everyone who thought Gibraltar was self governing had exactly the same motives, thoughts and behaviour. --Narson ~ Talk • 13:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Your comment on my talk page

You may have noticed this comment from RHoPF "If they agree with the others you probably should let it go." Guess what, that is precisely the response you got. Misplaced Pages isn't about making deals its about working collaboratively, something you apparently utterly fail to grasp. Justin talk 18:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I would decline to remove the resolved tag, you might like to note the comments made completely independently by other wikipedia editors about the Turks and Caicos Islands. They described them as self-governing, despite the fact they enjoy less self-government than Gibraltor does. Please do take a hint and let it go. The tag doesn't and hasn't stopped people commenting but it will remove the thread in a couple of days. Really, three threads on one forum all trying to skew arguments is a bit much. You've continued to misrepresent what the UN sources actually mean; that skewed comments.

The Falklands is an independent example, as is the one I just gave you. I note you were quick to find an excuse to dismiss it. Think about that. The source could have been changed at any time, you were the one edit warring to remove sources you didn't like. Again think about that.

You were also quick to assume comments were racially motivated, I'm actually half-Spanish. Think about that. Justin talk 23:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You brought up race, you said you thought SPA was a racist term. Justin talk 09:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

My comments about your edits have always been justified, they weren't an attack. I've always been careful to direct you toward somewhere you could read more. You always assume bad faith, for example I simply point you to how completely independently of any Falklands or Gibraltar based articles editors on the Turks and Caicos Islands reached exactly the same conclusion as to the correct term to use. It is merely an independent example on wikipedia; you respond with sarcasm. Why? What do you think you'll achieve? All you do is generate heat and light and raise tension unnecessarily. Go back and read my comments and look at all the policies I gave you links for. I also patiently and politely explained to you how democracy works in Gibraltar and the UK.

Having just noticed your response on the NPOV, I'm just giving up. You don't want to listen do you. Justin talk 09:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

UNINDENT

I really have had it, my patience is exhausted. I hope I only have to ask this once but please stay of my Talk Page in future. Really the frustration of trying to discuss anything with you has just got too much. I don't wish to converse with you anymore. Justin talk 09:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Sloss' Book

It was Chapter 10, I was relying on memory as I didn't have the book in front of me:

Fox ordered that Nicolas Orfila’s position as civil assessor be

renewed, with more pay, since he was “a gentleman of great merit and professional abilities” and had worked faithfully for the British administration since first appointed by Sir Charles Stuart. Orfila felt that his future on the island was doubtful. He wrote that he had tried to get justice done in the affairs of the church and its abuse of funds, but that the pr iests had ‘indisposed’ him to several powerful families of the island who wanted the abuses to continue. If, after the peace, the island were returned to Spain, they would use their influence at court in Madrid to lose him his job, and persecute and ruin his family. He asked Fox to intercede on his

behalf with the king of Spain.

In January 1802, Major General Clephane repeated the request to

London. “In the event of the cession of this island to the Spanish government, there are several individuals that, I am afraid, will suffer considerably for their attachment and good will towards the English. The civil assessor, Don Nicholas Orfila, appears to me in every respect a most upright judge, and a real patriot, studying only to administer public justice without being in the least influenced by any improper

motives. I wish I could say as much of the other judges.

Now stop wasting my time. I have already indicated I DO NOT wish to converse with you anymore. Justin talk 13:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Heh heh... you two still squabbling? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 14:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

EDIT WAR

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!! DO NOT POST ON MY TALK PAGE!!!!!

Take the hint. Justin talk 15:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

October 2009

Sorry about that. The screen froze, resulting in an unintended warning and revert to the work you were doing. Again, my apologies. Jusdafax 22:08, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Hola Imalbornoz, I see that you go on trying to unbias Gibraltar-related articles. It seems to me that you're being quite brave :-) I just wanted to congratulate you because of your effort. Sorry for my English, you know my Spanish is far better ;-) --Ecemaml (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2009 (UTC) PS: nowadays I'm not at home, and anyway I do not have much time to contribute to the English wikipedia, however, consider asking for help or references whenever you may need it

Yes, it's one of the worst things when editing such articles. Y sí, ya me encuentro mucho mejor, pero dejaré de estar de baja en pocos días, así que mi disponibilidad es limitada. However, as promised, don't hesitate to contact me if you need specific pieces of information. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 08:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Imalbornoz. Tomorrow I'll be at home. I'll try to transcript what the books I have say about the Anglo-Dutch takeover of Gibraltar. It can be a good basis to approach a mediation. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I started this work many time ago. You can see the references. The source cannot be seen as biased (at least not pro-Spanish, since the author was a former Governor of Gibraltar). I don't think further references are needed since it fulfills the requirements of Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources). The rest is pure speculation (good for a forum or a blog, but not for wikipedia). Best regards —Ecemaml (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC) PS: if you could review the article I'd be very happy; your English is far better than mine.

Some references

As promised, here they are:

• Jackson, William (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (2nd ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, UK: Gibraltar Books. pp. 100–101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6.:

Although Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar, few decided to run the risk of remaining in the town. Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline, but the inhabitants worst fears were confirmed: women were insulted and outraged; Roman Catholic churches and institutions were taken over as stores and for other military purposes (except for the Cathedral of Saint Mary the Crowned that was protected successfully by its staunch vicar, Juan Romero, his curate, and his bell-ringer); and the whole town suffered at the hands of the ship's crew and marines who came ashore. Many body reprisals were taken by inhabitants before they left, bodies of murdered Englishmen and Dutchmen being thrown down wells and cesspits. By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain.

General Sir William Jackson was Governor of Gibraltar between 1978 and 1982. He was a military Historian and former Chairman of the Friends of Gibraltar Heritage.

• George Hills (1974). Rock of Contention. A History of Gibraltar. London: Robert Hale. pp. 173–174. ISBN 0-7091-4352-4.:

Byng's chaplain Pocock went ashore on 6 August and walked 'all over the town'. 'Great disorders', he found, had been 'committed by the boats' crews that came on shore and marines; but the General Officers took great care to prevent them, by continually patrolling with their sergeants, and sending them on board their ships and punishing the marines; one of which was hanged after he had thrown dice with a Dutchman who had 10, and the Englishman 9.' Such was the behaviour not only of the men but their officers that the worst fears of the population were confirmed. There were 'disorders involving persons of the weaker sex with gave rise to secret bloody acts of vengeance'. In consequence, 'the vanquished deprived many of life and threw the corpses in wells and cesspools'. What shocked Spaniards most was the profanation by the Englishmen of places of worship and their mockery of religious objects. If such were the allies of the King of Spain alternative to Philip V, they would have none of him, unpopular though the Duke of Anjou was already becoming with his nation-wide appointment of Frenchmen over Spaniards. Accordingly, when the garrison and City Council marched out on 7 August under the terms of surrender, all but 70 of the inhabitants of the 1,200 houses in the city took what they could carry of what had not yet been plundered, and then filed through the gate towards the ruins of ancient Carteia.

Ayala's Historia de Gibraltar is available here

George Hills was a BBC World Service broadcaster, Hispanist Historian, and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society. Some wikipedians tries to discretit him claiming he was a "close friend of Franco", but I haven't been able to find a source of that.

• Sepúlveda, Isidro (2004). Gibraltar. La razón y la fuerza (Gibraltar. The reason and the force). in Spanish. Madrid: Alianza Editorial. pp. 89–91. ISBN 84-206-4184-7. Chapter 2, "La lucha por Gibraltar" (The Struggle for Gibraltar) was available online (PDF). Isidro Sepúlveda Muñoz is a Contemporary History lecturer in the UNED ("Universidad Nacional de Educación a Distancia"), the biggest Spanish university.

Después del fuego devastador, asaltada al fin la ciudad, sin la mayor parte de sus defensas y con soldados ingleses en sus calles, la confusión se adueñó de la población y se hizo presente la sed de botín y venganza de los soldados. El hecho más grave (un "desafortunado incidente" para la historiografía inglesa) fue el ataque a la población refugiada en la ermita de la Virgen de Europa, donde habían encontrado cobijo mujeres y niños, portando las pertenencias más valiosas de sus hogares; al igual que sucedió en los pueblos aledaños a Cádiz dos años antes, la soldadesca se entregó a la profanación y saqueo del templo, al robo de todos los objetos de valor de los refugiados y, lo más grave, a la vejación y violación de algunas mujeres. El paroxismo de su actuación lo alcanzó el ataque contra la imagen mariana, apuñalada, arrancada la cabeza del Niño que portaba en sus manos y, finalmente, arrojada a los acantilados de la Punta de Europa.

A pesar de tener garantizada su seguridad y el disfrute de sus derechos civiles, la mayor parte de la población militar y civil de Gibraltar optó por abandonar la ciudad. Fue una decisión que a largo plazo tuvo una gran trascendencia, pues la ausencia de una población autóctona facilitó extraordinariamente el asentamiento inglés. Su presencia hubiese sido, por el contrario, un elemento de primera importancia en el posterior asalto e incluso en manos de la diplomacia hubiera facilitado (como ocurriera en Menorca) las negociaciones para su recuperación. Pero si política, militar y diplomáticamente el autoexilio gibraltareño fue perjudicial para España, desde el punto de vista humanitario y en el contexto de la guerra estaba razonado: los temores a las atrocidades de las tropas inglesas en los alrededores de Cádiz habían sido ratificados por su comportamiento desde el mismo día del asalto, siendo los oficiales incapaces de dominar los desmanes de su tropa e incluso participando algunos de ellos en la rapiña generalizada; incluso el concedido respeto a la libertad religiosa estaba en entredicho al ser utilizados como cuarteles y depósitos militares todos los recintos católicos, excepto la Catedral de Santa María, donde su párroco Juan Romero de Figueroa se opuso resueltamente al saqueo.

If you want, we can comment on the sources. I have to leave now. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 11:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Imalbornoz, I've made a statement (maybe too verbose). To sum up, I may discuss about editions being or not a POV, but introducing personal deductions instead of information supported by sources is not acceptable. --Ecemaml (talk) 21:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Interesting

Hi Imalbornoz, I found this reference. I've just looked at the index, but it's possibly useful for Gibraltar-related issues. Best regards --Ecemaml (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Re: Gib

I've been following the discussion. I've been trying to gauge when to jump back in, I was going to start things off in a new section. Unfortunately what I thought would be easy is now more complicated because the History of Gibraltar article is now being questioned. I had assumed that the information there was generally agreed upon at this point, and all that we had to do was come to a consensus on a summary at the Gibraltar article. Now that the mediation looks to be "expanding" past a small area of text to encompass information at the history article, this mediation is going to be much more complicated. I don't intend to stop trying to help because of the expanded scope, though, I only intend to stop when either a consensus is settled or editors give up on the process completely (and I'll do what I can to try to avoid that). -- Atama頭 16:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Canvas

Please restrict discussions on articles to the talk page and avoid canvassing to influence a particular opinion on user talk pages. Justin talk 10:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Answer

Hola Imalbornoz,

can you please quote the two paragraphs you're referring to? The diff is quite big :-)

On the other hand, I don't remember, but possibly the reason to include the paragraph which begun "For some time..." was to clarify that in spite of the gross mistake that takes Gibraltar as English since 1704, the reality is far from it. If you wish, I can provide you the titles of the chapters in my books (this evening) since I think that all of them clearly describe the period 1704-1713 as "Habsburg Gibraltar". It's a fact that, more or less since 1707, British begun to monopolize the rule of the town, paying attention only at their interests and not to that of the pretender's (hindered by the fact that there were Dutch regiments in there) and that since 1711, when Charles become Emperor, the relationships inside the coalition that supported him cooled very much. But de iure Gibraltar was not British until 1713, upon the signature of the treaties of Utrecht (here there is another interesting story about Louis XIV ceding Gibraltar and handing it in to the Spanish negotiators as a fait accompli, but that's another story). Another interesting thing is that it was me possibly the editor that introduced many time ago the phrase "the town and garrison of Gibraltar in the Kingdom of Spain", verbatim copied from Jackson's book. I'll do some research this evening to find out when the full denomination was mutilated.

Finally, it's really funny that you've been described as being a single-purpose account as if it were an evil thing. See a paragraph:

Compare your behaviour with other more obvious and persistent SPAs, which haven't provided a printed reliable source ever. Funny also the puppetry accusation.

Seguimos hablando. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 10:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Vale, I see your point. I think you've raised an interesting issue.

First of all, as promised, information about the denomination of the period 1704-1713. Hills devoted four chapters to this period: Gibraltar under 'Charles II of Spain' 1704 (Siege 12), Gibraltar under 'Charles II of Spain' 1705 (Siege 12 cont.), From 'Spanish' to 'British' Gibraltar and Britain acquires Gibraltar 1711-1713. Jackson is quite explicit: Hapsburg Gibraltar: The Eleventh and Twelfth Sieges, 1693 to 1713. My last purchase (Gibraltar. A History, by Maurice Harvey... possibly I'll invoice you part of the price ;-)) is also explicit: Gibraltar for the Habsburgs: 1704-1713. So, from a Misplaced Pages point of view, there is no reason not to label this period as Habsburg Gibraltar (even if between 1516 and 1700 Gibraltar was also Habsburg).

And now, the paragraph you mention. Well, once I read the paragraphs I remember what I aimed at writing the paragraphs: I just wanted to clarify several myths that may ruin an encyclopaedic article, as they're popular however doubtful or even false. The first one is the one related to the start of the English rule. As it's currently phrased, the paragraph is awful and possibly dispensable. It's obvious that a proper use of sections and a clear description of how the town was taken over on behalf of the pretender would be enough (BTW, there's a huge missing fact in such a period: the Archduke Charles was in Gibraltar on August 2, 1705, to be acclaimed King Charles III of Spain; as Harvey describes the Archduke Charles arrived in the town to be acclaimed King Charles III of Spain, the first slice of Spanish territory he could truly call his own).

On the other hand, I strongly believe that this is the point to describe the widespread story of the English flag, since it has been used to denounce the pérfida Albión and therefore must be explicitly refuted, since it's just propaganda (Spanish, in this situation; I do not like propaganda, regardless of its source).

Finally, an interesting point to emphasize is that, de facto until 1704, but de iure until 1713, Gibraltar was not only the town, but also its Campo Llano de Gibraltar, the municipal term that covers what nowadays is Tarifa, Algeciras, Los Barrios, San Roque y La Línea (see, for instance this). That the inhabitants of the town leave it and settled down in another part of Gibraltar is, until 1713, relevant to the history of Gibraltar, considering that the town was de iure Spanish until 1713. Beyond that date, it's pointless. About the Gibraltarians that took part in the following sieges of the town, the most obvious example is Simón Susarte (curiously, it's not listed in the section of notable people from Gibraltar; other notable Gibraltarians not listed are Fray Juan de Asensio, General Father of the mercedarios and president of the Council of Castile, Cardinal Diego de Astorga y Céspedes, archbishop of Toledo, or Gonzalo Piña Lidueña, founder of Gibraltar, Venezuela) but Ayala also mentions them (see here, p.296).

Well, sorry for the long explanation. I have a lot of work to do and won't be able to participate until tomorrow.

Venga, un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 22:40, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree, although I think this talk must go on in the article talk page. Just a final comment: I prefer the most verbose option and I'd leave (regardless of having a more detailed article) the references. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

A quick request: can you please have a quick look at Diego de Astorga? Your English is far better than mine and possibly you can make some copyedit? Thank you (no obligation, obviously :-)). Hasta luego --Ecemaml (talk) 15:46, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Sources and quotations

Hola Imalbornoz, I'm beginning to organize some of my material. As a first step, I'm including some interesting quotations from my sources in User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar. Enjoy them and, if you need further information about a specific issue, I'll provide the info in there. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 23:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

It's funny. Your personal situation seems rather similar to mine (just the detail about the number of kids, I've got just one right now), especially with regard to your partner's comments :-) I think that things are evolving in the proper wikipedian way. However, I disagree with regard to your assessment on "rationality". Have you read the section on the notable Gibraltar-born guys? It's far from being rational :-) See you and gracias de nuevo. Un abrazo --Ecemaml (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC) PS: BTW, I've included a new quotation in User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar#San Roque