Revision as of 18:14, 25 December 2009

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

• WP:RD/L

Main page: Help searching Misplaced Pages

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

December 19

Translation please

Friedrich nahm in Dahme Residenz und beauftragte die Baumeister Johann Christoph Schütze und Elias Scholtz ab 1711 auf den Resten der mittelalterlichen Wasserburg mit dem Bau von Schloss Dahme, der nach etwa vier Jahren Bauzeit mit einem markanten Mittelrisalit fertig gestellt werden konnte. Auch erfuhr der Garten durch das Anlegen von Lusthäuschen, Sandsteinskulpturen und Grotten eine Umgestaltung im barocken Stil. Friedrich konnte das Schloss jedoch nicht mehr beziehen, da er bereits kurz vor Vollendung des Baues starb. Stattdessen bezog seine Gemahlin Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz das Schloss als Witwensitz, den sie später aber hauptsächlich in ihren anderen Herrschaften (aus erster Ehe) Fürstlich Drehna und Vetschau aufschlug, wo sie auch 1729 verstarb. Der spätere Herzog und letzte Regent von Sachsen-Weißenfels Johann Adolf (II.) führte die Bauarbeiten ab 1719 fort und machte das Dahmer Schloss zu seiner zeitweiligen Residenz.

Herzog Friedrich starb am 16. April 1715 41-jährig und wurde in einem Zinnprunksarg in der Schlosskirche von Neu-Augustusburg zu Weißenfels beigesetzt.

Seine einzige Ehe schloss er am 13. Februar 1711 in Fürstlich Drehna mit Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz, verwitweter Reichsgräfin von Promnitz zu Pleß auf Sorau und Triebel, der Tochter Graf Heinrichs I. Reuß zu Schleiz aus dessen Ehe mit Esther von Hardegg auf Glatz und im Machlande, Tochter des Grafen Julius III. von Hardegg auf Glatz und im Machlande. Die Ehe blieb ohne Nachkommen.

Friedrichs nunmehriger Stiefsohn Erdmann II. von Promnitz und seine Nichte Anna Maria von Sachsen-Weißenfels hatten bereits 1705 geheiratet.

Friedrich took up residence in Dahme and commissioned the architects Johann Christoph Schütze and Elias Scholtz starting in 1711 with the construction of the Dahme Palace (Schloss Dahme) around the remains of the medieval Wasserburg (Water Castle). Construction was completed after about four years with a striking central risalit (vertical projection). The garden also underwent a reconstruction in baroque style with the installation of pleasure cottages, sandstone sculptures, and grottoes. Friedrich was, however, unable to move into the palace, as he died shortly before construction was completed. Instead, his consort Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz moved into the palace as a widow's residence. However, she later mainly resided in her other estates (from her first marriage), Princely Drehna and Vetschau, where she died in 1729. The later duke and last ruler of Saxe-Weissenfels, Johann Adolf II, continued construction from 1719 and made the Dahme Palace his temporary residence.

Duke Friedrich died on 16 April 1715 at the age of 41 and was buried in an ornate pewter casket in the castle church of New Augustusburg Castle in Weißenfels.

He entered into his only marriage on 13 February 1711 in Princely Drehna with Emilie Agnes Reuß zu Schleiz, the widowed imperial countess of Promnitz-Pleß in Sorau and Triebel, the daughter of Count Heinrich I of Reuss-Schleiz and Esther of Hardegg-Glatz and -Marchlande, daughter of Count Julius III of Hardegg-Glatz and -Marchlande. The marriage left no offspring.

Friedrich's future stepson, Erdmann II of Promnitz, and his niece, Anna Maria of Saxe-Weissenfels, had married in 1705. Marco polo (talk) 03:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Spanish consonant 'ñ'

There isn’t anything more, so ask this again. It's not simply the orthographic representation for the single sound as staed before, though it seems correct in a word like ‘paño’. It is not the sound of a digraph as in English, because it seems the cluster ‘n’ and ‘g’ (say, ‘combination’, in order to avoid the ambiguity) always creates syllable break in Spanish whereas the combination is always a diagraph in English. And in the case, in a word like ‘pañito’ (see ‘pañito’), the 'ñ' does not represent a double ‘n’ or gemination but something else. So what does the diacritic mean for 'ñ'? —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

In fact, 'ñ' is simply the orthographic representation in Spanish of the single sound . Your dictionary link transcribes this sound as 'ny' for English speakers, because the closest approximation to this sound in English is the consonant cluster we use to pronounce a word like canyon. However, in Spanish, 'ñ' represents a single sound, , that does not occur in English. Marco polo (talk) 02:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

So the always represent the orthography 'ñ', except in few cases as stated in the prevous edit. That makes sense. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:07, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

How is it different from the "gn" sound in Italian, e.g. "lasagna"? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Mihkaw: ñ means the sound . You have been told this numerous times before. And you have not provided a single example of a word in which ñ does not represent , so there are no "cases" stated in your "previous edit". rʨanaɢ /_contribs 07:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Bugs: it's the same sound, see Misplaced Pages:IPA for Italian and Misplaced Pages:IPA for Spanish. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 07:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Rjanag, it makes sense now, but you usually fool around many irrelevant things; that’s why. However, it does not mean that you do not understand matters in questions; you do. The serious problem that you have is to explain something in the code of conduct like other editors and misleading the readers purposely (knowing readers capacities on what one can or cannot understand). However, as you do contributions to WP (which I do not), it is not fare that i criticize your inputs and making traps for any of your comments that you claim to be an expert by education and experiences.

At the same time, if you do not have here at least one person like I am for linguistic or language prey, there can not be useful and good explanations or of your being of desistence is also remetted in the absence of such loopholes to have continuing communication and cooperation with other editors. So I guess we should keep similar things but not that strong (which is an arbitrary attention. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Instead of complaining about whatever this is (I have no idea where you think I've "misled you purposely"), why don't you just offer an example of a word where ñ does not represent ? If there is no such example (i.e., if Spanish ñ always represents ), then your question has already been answered and you have nothing to whine about. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 17:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

But you did imply there were instances of when ñ doesn't represent a palatal nasal, namely when it occurs in English: jalapeño, El niño, piñata, piña colada, and Quinceañera. — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I did not imply that, Mihkaw naphew did. And I don't see how English pronunciations are relevant; in Spanish, all these words are pronounced with , which is what ñ represents. Unless Mihkaw can come up with some example that challenges this, I don't see why this pointless discussion was ever even initiated. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 20:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Oui sí. Danke! ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

May I suggest, in the interest of conserving mental energy, that Rjanag and Mihkaw napew bury the hatchet (give up your conflict)? It's clear that Mihkaw napew is frustrated because he has had difficulty understanding the connection between orthography and phonetics in this case and because Rjanag has seemed not to AGF on Mihkaw's part. Also, it's clear that Rjanag is frustrated by what he sees as obtuseness or a lack of good faith. (I, however, see no reason to doubt good faith.) May I suggest that we remember that each person comes to this with different abilities and educations and try to be patient with one another? Thanks. Marco polo (talk) 16:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I never said lack of good faith; obtuseness is precisely what it is. I have reason to believe Mihkaw does not even read most of the responses to his questions. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 14:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you're failing to assume good faith, but you are coming off a little WP:BITEy. — Ƶ§œš¹ 18:30, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Mihkaw napew is hardly a 'newcomer' --ColinFine (talk) 23:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter (though I disagree), since WP:BITE doesn't apply just to newcomers. It seems pretty clear from Mihkaw's comments that Rjanag is not making Mihkaw feel welcome. — Ƶ§œš¹ 02:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Send in the 'Narines

Over the past few years, the West Indies cricket team has included in its ranks Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Sewnarine Chattergoon, and Dinanath Ramnarine. Its current side includes a player with the name Narsingh Deonarine. Outside this context, I've never encountered names of this form - where does the -narine suffix come from (my guess is probably the Indian subcontinent, since that's whereall of these players' ancestries are from IIRC), and what, if anything, does it mean?

Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 07:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

deleted one name I had listed. It was a brainfart misremembrance

My brother in law's first name is Ramnarine. His family is Guyanese, as is Mark Ramprakash. Apparently these names are signs of a descendancy from the Indian servants of the British rulers of Guyana (which used to be called "British Guiana"), who came across from India during the colonisation of that country. ISTR the phrase used to describe these people was "Anglo-Indian". As to what "narine" means, not even my brother in law knows! --TammyMoet (talk) 09:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a variant of Narayana, and can either stand alone or be compounded with other names, like Shiva (to make Shivnarine) and Rama (to make Ramnarine). I suspect it should be pronounced to rhyme with "brine" rather than "marine". +Angr 19:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow thanks for that Angr - I'll tell my bil when I see him next week! And yes it does rhyme with "brine".--TammyMoet (talk) 19:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info - and though I've heard both pronunciations the "brine" one sounds more likely. The pun was too good to resist, though :) Grutness...wha? 20:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Shanghiese

Is the Wu wikipedia banned?174.3.102.6 (talk) 07:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The easiest way to find out would probably be to ask a friend in mainland China to try accessing it. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 07:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

That's only the easiest way if one happens to have a friend in mainland China. +Angr 11:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Does List_of_websites_blocked_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China help? Kittybrewster ☎ 17:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

When I went to China during July and August this year, most of the Chinese language Misplaced Pages was unblocked except for sensitive political subjects. I would expect the same for the Wu Misplaced Pages but I didn't check that one specifically. ~AH1 23:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It's probably not often strongly blocked, because it has less traffic, but I have known the whole Misplaced Pages domain to be blocked in China. This test tool says it's not currently blocked. Steewi (talk) 01:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Languages of Misplaced Pages

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to find a list of all the European languages lacking (at the moment) their own Misplaced Pages version. For example: North Frisian, Ladin, Rusyn. --151.51.35.203 (talk) 12:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

North Frisian isn't really a language, but rather a language grouping; from a description I once read, traditionally each village or small group of villages or small island had its own divergent dialect. If there's no standardized language, and a decreasing number of speakers, and no strong revival movement, then the need for a Misplaced Pages isn't necessarily clear... AnonMoos (talk) 13:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Keep in mind that only languages with a valid ISO 639-3 code can have their own Misplaced Pages. Since North Frisian has a code, it could have a Misplaced Pages, but since its dialects do not have separate codes, they couldn't have separate Wikipedias. +Angr 18:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Why can only a language with a valid ISO 639-3 code have its own Misplaced Pages? --62.204.152.181 (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Because that's the rule. There are some exceptions, such as the Dutch Low Saxon Misplaced Pages (Dutch Low Saxon has seven distinct ISO 639-3 codes for each of its dialects, but just one all-encompassing Misplaced Pages), but they were created before the rule came into effect. +Angr 19:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

You'd have to work backwards from List of Wikipedias. —— Shakescene (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Evidence of Danish accent?

In Danish, <d> is silent after <l>, <n>, and/or <r> at the end of a word. In the song Barbie Girl, the singers (who are Danish and Norwegian) drop the sound at the end of words like world, blond, friend, and around. Could this be interpreted as evidence of the singers' Danish accents? 69.114.95.168 (talk) 22:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Not conclusively. It could be expected of a Danish accent, but this is also a feature of a number of ther English varieties (including casual speech in my own Australian variety). Steewi (talk) 01:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Danish <d> is not silent after <l>, <n> and <r> at the end of a word in those combinations it represents a glottal stop the socalled stød. I don't think that dropping final consonants in words as world, blond, friend is typical of a danish accent. It would be more typical to devoice them and pronounce them as t. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

December 20

translation from Yiddish to English

Can a user please translate the following from Yiddish to English.

זיי האבן אלע געגלויבט אין איין גאט (ניט ווי די כינעזער אין א סך געטער, גייסטער און שדים), אז זיי פעלגן עסן ספעציעלע אידישע פלייש, וועלכע מען פלעגט זאלצן און ארויסציען די אדערן. נאר ער אליין ווייס פון אידישקייט גארנישט. ער האט אפילו ניט געוואוסט פון שבת, פון מל זיין

Thank you Simonschaim (talk) 10:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

First pass: "They all believed in one God (not like the Chinese in many gods, spirits and XXX demons), as they usually eat special Jewish meat, which is usually salted and has the veins pulled out. But he alone doesn't know anything about Yiddishkeit. He didn't know a lot even know about Shabbes, about XXX his...". I'll have to look up the words I rendered as XXX; and it seems to be cut off in the middle of a sentence. Is this about the Kaifeng Jews? +Angr 11:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It is about the Jews of China and it comes from Noach Mishkowsky's book Etyopye p.132, published by M. Ceshinsky, New York in 1936. Simonschaim (talk) 11:22, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Having had a chance to sit down with my Yiddish dictionary, I've made some corrections. It occurs to me that the Yiddish word yidishkeyt, which I've translated as Yiddishkeit above, can also mean simply "Judaism", and that probably makes more sense in the context. I can't find the penultimate word מל in my dictionary; could it perhaps be אל? Then it would mean "about all his..." (whatever got left out of the last sentence). +Angr 13:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Could מל be short for melamed? — Sebastian 01:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

מל זיין means "to circumcise." Thus "he didn't even know about Shabbes, about circumcising." --Cam (talk) 05:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So it does. Uriel Weinreich alphabetizes it in his dictionary as if it were a single word מלזיין, and I was just looking up מל. Thanks for your help! +Angr 07:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So, the next (final?) draft of the translation is: "They all believed in one God (not like the Chinese in many gods, spirits and demons), as they usually eat special Jewish meat, which is usually salted and has the veins pulled out. But he himself doesn't know anything about Judaism. He didn't even know about Shabbes, about circumcising." +Angr 07:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 17:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

F's and s's in old documents

In images of very old documents or books, I see that an "f" was used in places where an "s" would be used in modern times, but they also used a modern "s" as a plural at the end of the word. Why did they mix their useage of f's and s's? 89.242.211.123 (talk) 21:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not an "f", it's a long s. — Sebastian 21:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, a long "s" then. That article does not say why two different letters were used for what we would now regard as the same sound, or why the final s was a short s rather than the other way around. Or why it should be necessary to have two forms of s in the first place. 89.242.211.123 (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that myself, but I will point out that the corresponding Greek letter sigma also had a separate form for use at the end of a word, and that this form resembles the short (now standard) "s". It's not obvious why users of the Latin alphabet would have copied that aspect of Greek writing, though. --Anonymous, 00:55 UTC, December 21, 2009.

I was about to say that :). So I'm only adding an example: ὁμοούσιος, where the 6th and 9th letters are both sigmas. - Nunh-huh 00:58, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The long "s" is still in use in a modified form (albeit in reduced use these days) in German, in words like Strasse (which you sometimes see written as "Straße", compare the shape of how this would be a long S followed by a standard S in English, straſse). IIRC, in German it's called an Eszett. Grutness...wha? 01:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

And the reason that it's called an Es-zett (as I found out only recently when sorting articles for Weiss and Weiß) is that it was originally for s-z (as in Georg Grosz) rather than s-s. The article on Es-zett explains why this is also used for double s (although less often since the German orthography reform of 1996 and not at all by the Swiss since the 1940's). The reason that you sometimes have different shapes for the letters in the middle and at the end of words I think derives from handwriting, where it might be tiresome to close up an ess in the middle of a word. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Did the long S literally mean a long s sound, and the other s a short s sound? 78.147.27.40 (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

No, it's just the shape. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"S" being a consonant, I wonder how the postulated "long S" would sound vs. the postulated "short S". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

"Ssss" or "s" perchance? 92.24.34.242 (talk) 12:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Aha. As with a snake. Which, coincidentally, often assumes the shape of a long S. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

"ſ" is the initial and medial form, "s" is the final form. Note that ſ≠f. Marnanel (talk) 16:45, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That tells us nothing new. 84.13.44.90 (talk) 18:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That snippy comment is your first edit in over 2 years. Who do you normally log on as? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:43, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it is related to the different ways of making an "s" sound - original research but when I say "bush" or "drives" my mouth seems to be in a different position when making the "s" sounds. 84.13.44.90 (talk) 18:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Since those words contain two different sounds, neither of which is /s/ ("bush" has /ʃ/, while "drives" has /z/), and this difference has nothing to do with position in the word, that's neither surprising nor particularly relevant. Algebraist 18:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheless, they've both still got "s" in them. I doubt if people were aware of the phonetic alphabet hundreds of years ago, so that's not relevant. The symbol you give for the "s" in "bush" looks like a long S to me. 92.29.68.169 (talk) 14:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

When I first studied German in the fifties my text was printed in Fraktur. The s scharfe were the least of its peculiarities. Are there still texts in this style? Are there web sites? How would one search for it? 69.116.67.201 (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)sesquepedalia

December 21

Hanging

If he committed suicide by hanging then he hanged himself. What about another person who strung himself up neither intending to die nor dying as a result? Kittybrewster ☎ 00:15, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Autoerotic asphyxiation, or, if that seems to necessarily indicate fatality (which I think it does not), asphyxiophilia? - Nunh-huh 01:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, what if they strung themselves up not for sexual pleasure, but to make it look like they wanted to commit suicide? We apparently don't have a "cry for help" article (or, ha, we do, but it's sort of a Rickroll). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

But we do have an article on Harold and Maude. It might also be considered a form of self-injury. +Angr 07:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

My question was grammatical. E.g. "Nine is a significant number in Norse Mythology. Odin hung himself on an ash tree for nine days to learn the runes." Kittybrewster ☎ 10:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like a quirky mistranslation. You don't use the term "hang xself" in English, unless with the meaning of an execution technique. Did Odin tie himself to a tree? Or suspend himself from the branches of a tree? --Dweller (talk) 11:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

(Exception - corpses can be hung without it necessarily meaning by the neck, but arguably corpses aren't people. And they certainly can't do so reflexively (hang themselves)) --Dweller (talk) 11:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the Hávamál leaves the means by which Odin hung from Yggdrasil (while pierced with a spear) rather vague; I don't think it's necessarily true that any rope was involved. The imagery is more reminiscent of the Crucifixion than a gallows hanging. - Nunh-huh 11:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

If the means are vague, I'd go for "suspended" to avoid ambiguity. --Dweller (talk) 11:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, the old hanged vs. hung. This says it's only hanged in case 2, which specifies death. So, you hung yourself by your neck until you're dead, at which point you were hanged. In Odin's case, you'd probably say "hung by the neck" if you mean he hung himself in the style used on people who were hanged. That's assuming the Compact Oxfrod English Dictionary is right in specifying death as a necessity. Vimescarrot (talk) 11:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

No matter which word you choose, you can probably find a dictionary to justify it... which is to say, this is a matter of style and not of right or wrong. Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate contains the following "usage note", which echos the "until dead" but is lenient on choice of verb form: "For both transitive and intransitive senses 1b the past and past participle hung, as well as hanged, is standard. Hanged is most appropriate for official executions <he was to be hanged, cut down whilst still alive…and his bowels torn out — Louis Allen> but hung is also used <gave orders that she should be hung — Peter Quennell>. Hung is more appropriate for less formal hangings <by morning I'll be hung in effigy — Ronald Reagan>." BTW, I don't think there's anything to indicate Odin hung by the neck. - Nunh-huh 11:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of the grammar of the situation and the method (rope, nails etc) this folklore motif is almost always called "the hanged god" as it is known in the influential work The Golden Bough meltBanana 13:18, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"The hung god" would probably be something entirely different. Vimescarrot (talk) 13:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Charlie: They told me you was hung!

Sheriff Bart: And they was right!

←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Vaguely similar comparison: The batter flied out to left. The ball itself flew. The batter flied. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The linguistic theory of Lexical Phonology (which I mentioned in my comment in the Dec. 21 thread below) also has a lot to say about "flied" vs. "flew". For a popularizing account, see chapter 5 of Steven Pinker's Language Instinct... -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

translation for the sires of Enghien

Hierna volgt een lijst met de heren van Edingen. In 1394 gaat Edingen naar Jan van Luxemburg, schoonzoon van Lodewijk. Met de echtgenoot van Maria van Luxemburg komt Edingen terecht bij Bourbon-Condé en wordt het nadien een hertogdom (Hertogen van Enghien).

• -1092 : Engelbert I
• 1092- : Engelbert II, zoon
• -1190 : Huwes I, zoon
• 1190-1192 : Engelbert III, zoon
• 1192-1242 : Engelbert IV, zoon
• 1242-1256 : Zeger I,zoon
• 1256-1271 : Wouter I,’’de Grote’’, zoon
• 1271-1310 : Wouter II, zoon
• 1310-1345 : Wouter III, zoon
• 1345-1364 : Zeger II, zoon
• 1364-1381 : Wouter IV, zoon
• 1381-1394 : Lodewijk, neef

The list is in Dutch. The ranks of nobility don't tranlsate well from one country's system to another. I would have said Lord of Enghien, not Sire. Hertog is a duke, a higher rank. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Here follows a list of the Lords of endingen. In 1394 Endingen passed to Jan of Luxemburg, son-in-law of Lodewijk. With the marriage of Maria of Luxemburg, Endingen passed into the House of Bourbon-Condé and was later raised to a duchy (Duchy of Enghien)." In the list itself, zoon is son and neef is cousin or nephew. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

In English we also have Sohier of Enghien, Walter IV of Enghien, and Louis of Enghien, although apparently none of the others. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Derwood

Derwood (place name, from Deer Wood)

Does the first part sound like "dare" and rhyme with "pear" (IPA ), or does it sound like "dirt" without the final "t" and rhyme with "her"? (IPA ) Or does the first part sound like "deer"/"dear"?

Thanks! 96.244.43.203 (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Ianthe

On Bewitched, Endora always pronounced it to rhyme the first syllable with "her". +Angr 15:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you think it's the same for Derwood, Maryland?96.244.43.203 (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)Ianthe

Evocative

Is there a word to indicate that a word needs a subsidiary phrase. Eg Evocative or reminiscent which need the "of ...." Kittybrewster ☎ 16:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Phrasal verb seems to be what you're looking for. (But note that "evocative" can be used on its own, to refer to something that brings up emotions. (e.g. google {"very evocative" -"evocative of"} with the quotes, but without the curly braces). -- 128.104.112.94 (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Evocative of" is not a phrasal verb, because "evocative" is not a verb. --Anon, 06:26 UTC, December 22, 2009.

Also see subcategorization, though the article is woefully exiguous. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Some languages might have evocative markers in their lexical or grammatical marking. In English, I doubt there is such thing; other than in poetical or periodical natures. However, if you can clarify this with a sentence, then it is easy to understand what you are saying. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of eg "It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley", "the smell is reminiscent of an abattoir". Kittybrewster ☎ 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That is better. My answer is then these words (which I have not read often in contexts but according to corpuses) usually form as a nominal in a sentence (though the examples are adjectival here), i.e. by taking of a subsidiary phrase (usually a prepositional phrase, as you said). And as they are adjectives, they can function as adjectives.

And to a different question on whether a word needs a subsidiary phrase in phrasal categories, other than ‘Comp phrase’ which requires a phrase, all other words can stand alone within their phrasal categories.

However, you may be correct on the assumption that ‘evocative’ as a rhetorical marker needs a subsidiary phrase in discourses (not just mentioning the grammatical aspect). If that is case, I do know the word for such feature either. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Kitty's question was perfectly clear (to a native speaker) in its original form. I'm glad Kitty's examples made the question clearer to you, Mihkaw.

I'm going back to the first anon, in the very first answer. The phrasal verb is is evocative of or is reminiscent of, with is as the verb.

You can replace "is evocative of" with the verb "evokes", for example It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley: It evokes the spirit of Manderley. You cannot similarly replace "evocative" when is evocative is used intransitively, because the verb evoke is pretty transitive. For example: It is certainly evocative: *It certainly evokes (although I suppose you might try, it would always sound like it was missing something to me). The of transforms it from intransitive to transitive. Perhaps a linguist could comment. 86.176.191.243 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Woman as an adjective

We sometimes see sentences like this:

• She is the state's first woman premier.

"Woman" is chosen because "female" is a gender term that does not necessarily refer to women.

But when we come to the plural, "woman" changes to "women":

• Australia has now had four women state premiers.

Since adjectives in English are indeclinable, this leads me to believe that "woman/women" here is not an adjective (whereas "female", had it been used, most definitely is). What's the relationship of "women/women" to "premier/s"?

Why can't "woman" be an adjective, leading to such sentences as:

• Australia has now had four woman state premiers? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It can be a noun adjunct. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The phrase woman painter is ambiguous. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Thinking about this a little laterally: when there's an occupation that's predominantly occupied by women, a man who does it is not called a "man nurse/secretary", but a "male nurse/secretary". Why is it ok to use "male" to refer to a man, but not to use "female" to refer to a woman? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Women state premiers sounds odd to me, as does robots state premiers, although rangers hockey game sounds fine (and so does woman state premiers). All the plural noun adjunct examples in the article are types of container, such as a club or an agency. And female bodybuilder gets more ghits than woman bodybuilder. (30 times more, if you put the phrases in quotes.) Felis cheshiri (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has articles beginning with female, including Female athlete triad, Female guards in Nazi concentration camps, and Female political leaders in Islam and in Muslim-majority countries; and articles beginning with woman, including Woman warrior.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There is also man servant, for some reason, and man child and man whore. I don't know why man secretary and man nurse aren't common. Felis cheshiri (talk) 21:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, the plural of 'manservant' (NB, single word) is 'menservants' (so saith the 1979 Collins English Dictionary). 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe just compound words? --88.74.30.79 (talk) 22:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's article on Australia's first female premier describes her as "the first female Premier of an Australian State". Mitch Ames (talk) 00:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

And yet, see this summary of Australia's "women premiers", who all succeeded "male" premiers. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

...which I've now corrected, thanks to the advice given here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

This type of construction was discussed intensively by Otto Jespersen in his grammar of English many decades ago, and also was discussed by linguists (generative phonologists to be precise) in the development of the theory of lexical phonology (redlink which should probably be an article) in the 1980's. To begin with, it's highly dubious whether the first element in phrases such as "woman doctor" or "boy doctor" etc. is an adjective at all. Such elements certainly don't take comparative and superlative degrees, and cannot be ordinarily preceded by "very", etc. etc. It turns out that a non-final noun in such a construction being plural in form is fairly closely correlated to irregular plural morphology (i.e. something other than the standard "-s" suffix). AnonMoos (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

<quoting AnonMoos> ... it's highly dubious whether ... is an adjective at all. Such elements certainly don't take comparative and superlative degrees, and cannot be ordinarily preceded by "very", etc. etc. </quote>
You could say the same about "unique" but it's definitely an adjective (according to SOED). Mitch Ames (talk) 00:55, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

People actually do say "very unique" reasonably often (some think they shouldn't, but they do). In any case, the question is whether there's any test of adjectivehood which would reveal that the word "boy" in "Doogie Howser, the boy doctor" etc. is distinctively an adjective (rather than a noun which happens to be serving in the role of modifying another noun). I don't think that there is any such test. AnonMoos (talk) 08:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

¶ Oddly enough, this very question was discussed by Jan Freeman in her weekly language column in the Boston Sunday Globe yesterday (20 December 2009). See The Female Question. —— Shakescene (talk) 00:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I love the problems that sexual/gender style guides cause. When The Guardian carried Carlo Ponti's obituary, they were forced to print the following correction: "A rigid application of the Guardian style guide caused us to say of Carlo Ponti in the obituary below that in his early career he was "already a man with a good eye for pretty actors ..." This was one of those occasions when the word "actresses" might have been used." It seems to be that "woman premier" is trying to point out the premier's sex, so there need be no consideration of her age; "female" does it best. - Nunh-huh 02:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Some people think that "female" has inappropriate connotations, since it seems to focus narrowly on biological sex, and is a word that can be applied equally to animals and humans (unlike "woman", "lady", etc.). However, in the nineteenth century, "female" was sometimes kind of an elegant alternative -- a "female seminary" would have been more pretentious and expensive than a mere "girls' school"... AnonMoos (talk) 08:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

For a sports-related example, the article on South Carolina Gamecocks states that the women's teams, formerly known by the somewhat peculiar name "Lady Gamecocks", are now also just the "Fighting Gamecocks", like the men. Presumably "Gamehens" was not given much consideration as an alternative. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

All very fascinating. Thank you, men and women of Misplaced Pages. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this good Latin, or Dog Latin?

The quote is by Terry Pratchett:

Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardiaet cerebellum. Woogee (talk) 22:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Sort of...currently it says "whose balls you have, you should have hearts and a brain", which I assume means "let he who has balls also have a heart and a brain". Actually "cardia" is Greek, since "hearts" in Latin is "corda". I would say "qui testiculos habet, cor et cerebellum habeat." Adam Bishop (talk) 22:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it's more like "If you have their balls, you'll also have their hearts and minds". Woogee (talk) 23:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Then future indicative habebis might be preferable to present subjunctive habeas. AnonMoos (talk) 23:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

It's almost definitely supposed to refer to the old aphorism "if you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow". Grutness...wha? 23:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

And so 'cuius' is better than 'qui'. --ColinFine (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, that does make pretty good sense then. I've never heard that before. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

It's neither good Latin, nor dog-Latin. It's Latatian. Some denizens of Pratchett's Discworld, particularly wizards, often use Latatian which, purely by coincidence, looks to a Roundworld reader like Latin as spoken by someone who will try to translate the inscription on a gravestone but come up with a recipe for lentil soup. See also http://wiki.lspace.org/Latatian. One of the better-known examples is Rincewind's "incantation" - Stercus stercus stercus, morituri sum. These are more examples. Tonywalton  01:33, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Tony, that never crossed my mind. Woogee (talk) 22:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

December 22

креатура (Russian! :)

Hello. I want to use the word 'креатура' in Russian. I've found it means creature, but also minion or henchman. If I wanted to say for example minions of (X) with 'креатура' (e.g. "minions of God"), how would it be? I tried using an online translator, but it uses Russian words other than креатура, and I don't understand from the translations how the 'of' or the plural work in Russian, so that's why I'm asking here :) I would appreciate a short explanation of these and any other grammatical rules needed to understand the translation. Thanks in advance! :3 190.157.136.97 (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No, 'креатура' does not mean creature / minion / henchman. There is no such word as 'креатура' in proper Russian at all. You may use 'креатура' as a transliteration of the English word 'creature' in any sense or context the word 'creature' is used. However, that won't make it a Russian word; it will still be an importation, a loanword. It may enter Russian eventually as a neologism, but I doubt it. Now, there are many words in Russian that correspond to the English word 'minion'. Different Russian words for 'minion' express different degrees of derision, so you should choose wisely. I can not suggest anything without knowing the context... --Dr Dima (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. Why do several dictionaries say the word does exist then, like here, here, here, and here? Did all of them make it up? And from where would they get the 'minion/henchman' meaning? What does this mean??? 190.157.136.97 (talk) 12:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

My Oxford Russian-English Dictionary (1972 edition) has 'креатура', meaning "creature, minion". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, my 1997 edition of the ORED doesn't have креатура but it doesn't have an entry for "minion." and создание is the only translation for "creature." — Ƶ§œš¹ 19:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

В.К.Мюллер's Англо-Русский Словарь (Moscow, Russian Language Publishers, 17th ed, 1977) gives 'креатура' as the 2nd meanings of both "minion" and "henchman". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

To answer your original question, the (nominative) plural of 'креатура' is 'креатуры'. "Of God" is the genitive of 'Бог', viz. 'Бога'. --ColinFine (talk) 19:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I believe I understand now... one last question: is the genitive singular of 'креатура', well, 'креатура'? :) 190.157.136.97 (talk) 20:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No, it's the same as the nominative plural, 'креатуры'. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh I see, it's because it's feminine... thanks again :3 190.157.136.97 (talk) 20:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If you are to use 'креатура' as a feminine noun, the declension for the singular form would be as follows. Imenitelnyi (nominative) - 'креатура', roditelnyi (genetive) - 'креатуры', datelnyi (dative) - 'креатуре', vinitelnyi (accusative) - 'креатуру', tvoritelnyi (instrumental) - 'креатурой', predlozhnyi (prepositional) - 'креатуре'. --Dr Dima (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The declension of креатура is at wikt:ru:креатура. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Arbeit macht frei - translation

Is there a generally accepted English translation of Arbeit macht frei, used by historians? A glance at the revision history of that article shows frequent changes to the translation.

A while ago it read " literally translates 'Work Makes Free'", so I changed the verb "translates" to "has the word-for-word meaning", since "Work Makes Free" is a sequence of word glosses rather than a translation; and anyway, we should not use "translate" in this way as an intransitive verb because translation is an active process. But soon afterwards, "Work Makes Free" was replaced by "Work will set you free", but still with the description "word-for-word meaning", which it is not. Then there is a second attempt for good measure - "Labour liberates" - so the whole thing is clearly in need of some expert attention.

I hope we can find a stable solution that is based on actual, verifiable usage by historians and translators, instead of attempting the translation ourselves. Lfh (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The most literal translation is "Work makes free". This is the only translation that I think can be acceptable as "word-for-word". The translation "labour liberates" takes too much translators' licence into account. "Work will set you free" is perhaps the best translation, as it makes more sense in english than the blocky "work makes free". A quick search on google shows approx 4460000 hits for "arbeit macht frei", 15900 for "work makes free", 211000 for "work will set you free", and 956 for "labour liberates".

My suggestion to the article's opening sentence is to change "work will set you free" to "work makes free" and change "labour liberates" to " work will set you free". I'll go ahead and make this and see if anyone objects. ThemFromSpace 17:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

As Lfh said, "work makes free" is not a translation. It's a gloss. kwami (talk) 18:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a "literal translation". It's like Vaya con Dios is literally "Go with God" in Spanish, and the English idiom is "May God be with you." It's useful to have both, to better understand how words are put together in another language. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I've no objection to "Work makes free", as long as we mark it for what it is (be that "gloss" or "literal translation"). But whether or not we have "Work makes free", we should have an actual translation too, and I would like to know if translators and historians have ever reached a consensus or if it remains debated (like Das Judenthum in der Musik). And if the latter, how should we cover the issue? Lfh (talk) 19:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

In newspapers over the past few days, I have seen only "work makes you free" or "work will set you free". Adam Bishop (talk) 19:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Weighing in as an inhouse translator for a historical archive, I can offer "work makes free" as a rendition faithful to the German, and within ten hours shall return here with the version used in the English-language edition of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust published by Yad Vashem, a highly authoritative academic source. -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

...and from the English-language edition of the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, vol.4, p.1751 (Glossary), published by Yad Vashem, a highly authoritative academic source:

"Arbeit macht frei" ("Work liberates") Slogan above the entrance gate to Auschwitz I and other concentration camps.

-- Deborahjay (talk) 07:14, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Deborahjay (and everyone). I'll add this translation and reference to the article, and also add a note asking people not to change it without good reason. Lfh (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I have also frequently heard it translated as "work brings freedom", a looser translation perhaps but maintains the three word pithiness of the original meltBanana 13:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

December 23

Somebody wrote me a message in Arabic

Tonight, I was browsing the Arabic Misplaced Pages (even though I can't understand a word of it) when I noticed someone had left me a note on my user page. Does anyone know what it says? I imagine it's just a welcome template, but that would be rather strange, since I've never made any edits on that wiki. I'd also like you to look into the contributions of the user who left me the message. Does s/he compulsively go around leaving welcome messages to users who have never edited? This user should be got after and looked at (yes, I know this only the Reference Desk no the Arabic AN/I, but still....).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It is a welcome template. The Arabic wikipedia has a page just like this. Anyone who wants to welcome all new users can use that log to do so. It's perfectly ok. I hope that clears things up. Happy editing! JW.. 03:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I just clicked on the link you gave and got one too. Looks like this bot welcomes new users on ar.wikipedia. — æk 03:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Most of the individual language WPs have that feature. If you have established a global account, you'll get such a message the first time you visit each particular WP version. Deor (talk) 03:22, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, dude. That is seriously fucked up.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 05:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Shoes

What is shoetips?174.3.102.6 (talk) 05:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The tip of your shoes, I would imagine. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 05:59, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The text that's being asked about is:

...within each U.S. subculture there is little variety in headgear among U.S. men. That is because fashion sense is considered unmanly in the United States and because for those men who defy this cultural bias, fashion sense is usually more a matter of shoetips and the cut of one's clothing.

Here the author is saying that for these particular Americans, fashion sense means more than the shape of the tips of a man's shoes or the cut of his clothes. The tips of some shoes are of a different color or material than the rest of the shoe, some are very round, some are very narrow and sharp, some are wingtips (with, Misplaced Pages says, "a toe cap in a W shape") and some (required for construction work) have steel toes. There have been different cultural associations with different types and shapes of shoes, including their tips. It's not my field, but narrow-pointed shoes have at times been popularly associated with an rebel teenage culture, and wingtips with a more suburban, middle-class one. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:00, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It could be an alternative name for shoe taps -- that would certainly indicate a sense of fashion." DRosenbach 14:59, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

When a reference is made to "shoetips" it is a reference to the phenomenon in which very small variations assume great fashion significance such as in the design of very classically and conservatively styled men's dress shoes. Wingtips are a general example. Bus stop (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hirsebeutels Hymne

What would be this title's literal meaning, and what might be its significance in the context of the Nazi era? The poem—three stanzas in German, undated, author unknown—makes ironic or cynical note of how the vaunted purity of the German Reich, that puts "Abraham" to the knife, is maintained by sloughing its sins off on "our" children. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hymne in German means "anthem" (not really "hymn" as that word is used in English). Hirsebeutel sounds like a name; the -s at the end puts it in the genitive case. However, "Hirsebeutels Hymne" gets 0 Google hits, so I'm at a dead end for further research. +Angr 14:15, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it is probably a misspelling for de:Hirschbeutel. Still no hits for a hymn though.·Maunus·ƛ· 14:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Probably not a mis-spelling: Hirsebeutel means "millet bag" -92.11.141.194 (talk) 16:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, true.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd arrived at the "millet bag" via Leo, which prompted me to post here in hopes that some such allusion might be familiar to German-culture cognoscenti. The possibility of a misprint for "Hirsch..." occurred to me because of a handwritten notation in what's apparently Polish orthography: "Hirsz..." – though that sort of mishmash is frequent enough in this archival material at the hands of polyglot immigrants. As for the title and text, I doubt they'd have made it to the Internet. The lack of provenance on this item is frustrating. Any insights are appreciated! -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Among the only 8 google hits I received for "Hirsebeutel", there was one text from 1884, where a (typically daft) recruit is addressed as "Hirsebeutel" by his commanding officer See here. Maybe the "millet bag" was an accessory sometimes used metonymously for lowly recruits, or maybe not. (The usage of "Brotsack" ("bread bag", a small bag carried by Swiss soldiers) in the title of Max Frisch's Blätter aus dem Brotsack suggests that the author is not an officer, for example). I have never heard the term "Hirsebeutel" in any remarkable way, personally. As an aside, the Word "Hymne" can also mean a type of poem in German, something like an ode; its meanings aren't limited to anthem. Is it possible for you to post or link to the entire text, or do you have any other information regarding this Hymne? ---Sluzzelin talk 21:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Did anyone search Google for key phrases in the poem, rather than the (uncertain) title? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The document was acquisitioned in mid-1993; from its appearance it's possibly a page from a self-published slim volume of poetry, otherwise quite anonymous. A Google search of its more idiosyncratic phrases yields nothing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

OP adds: Singling out a word from a poem or artwork's title and querying its significance in the source language's culture is a favorite research device of us translators. Whether Hirsebeutel or Hirschbeutel, it seems peculiar, hence likely a deliberate choice and one that escapes my understanding. As a sample of the text, the first of the three stanzas begins identical to the Deutschlandslied and continues with a presumably eponymic reference to a "Nachmann" (where the last line's "Abraham" quite clearly stands for the Jews):

Deutschland, Deutschland,
über alles,
über alles in der Welt,
solange der aus Nazi-
schlamm Geborene
vor den Nachmanns
auf die Knie fällt.

(punctuation verbatim). Sorry to have so little to offer, but this is how it goes. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Where is this "A" originally from???

• File:AdobeSystems.svg
• File:Tabula_Rasa.jpg
• File:Nintendo_GameCube_logo.jpg

Hi. I'm not sure this is the most adequate Reference Desk for this question (it would depend on the answer), but here goes. I've been trying to trace the origins of this particular and very common A design, but I have absolutely no clue where it comes from originally. I've seen it in many, many places... For example, I happened to find a contest for designing a logo for "Alpha Elevators" here, and many of the entries used this special "A" design (like this one, this one, and this one). Why is this particular "A" so popular? And where did it come from??

...Might it be some weird variation on Delta, or the capital Lambda? It certainly looks to me like a middle ground between Lambda and the modern L (or the more similar phoenician Lamedh: ). I've tried looking for a similar figure across several alphabets, but so far the closest thing I've found to it is the Coptic equivalent of lambda: . Or maybe, it's simply a design someone used once for their company or store logo, and people started ripping it off? Perhaps I'm complicating myself too much? I really have no idea. Does anyone know about this? Any help is greatly appreciated! Kreachure (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Another possibility is that a particular font or goup of fonts featured an A that looks like that and use of such a font occurs enough that it's gotten popular. Though I'm just guessing here. — Ƶ§œš¹ 18:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

"Stop" by Aldo Novarese (part of the Linotype library) has a similar though not identical capital "A": the gap or opening is on the top left, not on the bottom right. See here. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There is also the Sinaloa font family. What I think the Adobe "A", the Stop font, and the Sinaloa font have in common is that they were designed in the 1970s or early '80s to have a streamlined, "futuristic" look. I am fairly certain that this has little or nothing to do with the ancient Greek, Phoenician, or Coptic scripts. Marco polo (talk) 20:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The A in the Star Trek: The Next Generation title looks kind of like that Stop font. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks to me like an abstraction of the lowercase italic a; it's the only sensible way to trace it in one line. — Sebastian 22:56, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. --Kjoonlee 06:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Look at some of the a's in uncial script, just before (as I understand it, perhaps wrongly) capital letters became distinct from what (after the printing-press) we now call lower-case. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The A in the Adobe logo, was designed in 1982 by Marva Warnock, wife of John Warnock (one of the two founders of Adobe Systems). The original log (which you can see on page 4 of this PDF) was a bit different than the current one, in that it spelled out "ADOBE" and the right limb of the A didn't extend all the way down. As Marco Polo said above, the font was certainly intended to have a "futuristic" geometric look, and is unlikely to be a direct reference to "ancient" scripts. Abecedare (talk) 07:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much... :3 Kreachure (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

December 24

Vivid? Really?

On (US) television an advert is currently running, perhaps for a stop-smoking drug. Per FDA regulations, nearly half the ad is disclaimers, one of which is "may cause vivid or intense dreams."

Does anyone know what the FDA-approved, medical definition of a "vivid dream" might be? Surely it's more than just bright colors, because lots of drugs (most of which don't require a prescription!) can induce that, right?

Happy holidays to all, by the way...

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 02:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It sounds kind of like weasel-words, in sort of a good way; not just the "vivid" part, but the "intense" part. Whether a dream is vivid or intense would be a judgment call on the part of the dreamer. It's unlikely there's a federal standard for the term. It's probably more of a summary of observed results. By the way, "vivid" derives from "to live", hence it means "lively", and one of its synonyms is "intense". So it may cause intense or intense dreams. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of "vivid" in this context was dreams that are a lot more realistic, perhaps even difficult to distinguish from reality. — Ƶ§œš¹ 02:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Could be. But you don't have to be on drugs to have vivid and/or intense dreams. They might have been better off saying "more vivid or intense than you normally get". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

And as with any other drug, it would have been through a battery of tests, in which such side effects would have been observed. If you get any kind of prescription drug nowadays, you get like a book that explains every possible side effect of the drug. Those effects would be known through testing required for FDA approval. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

You can also get intense dreams without being on drugs. In general, when someone says "vivid dream" I don't think intense, I think realistic. Maybe it's just me. — Ƶ§œš¹ 03:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Vivid" literally means "alive" or "living", i.e. seeming real. The disclaimers are likely just trying to come up with a couple of words to summarize what they observed during testing. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I suspect that this is based on self reporting rather than some sort of objective standard in a laboratory. — Ƶ§œš¹ 03:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

A fair amount of lab testing would involve self-reporting. If someone says, "This drug makes me nauseous", I don't know how you could measure that. More likely what they would measure is the percentage of test subjects who reported a given side effect. Like if they tested 100 people and only 1 of them had vivid dreams, vs. 50 of them having vivid dreams. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the definition of "vivid dreams" is pretty much the one suggested by a straightforward interpretation of the English words:

• This paper describes the term parenthetically as "unusually clear, long dreams with elaborate scenario and possibly strong emotions, that occurred only when sleeping and were acutely remembered".
• The Parkinsons Disease Non-Motor Scale has a question for the patient on the topic, which simply asks if they have experienced "Intense, vivid dreams or frightening dreams". Since the patient is given no further information on how to interpret these terms, the answer would reflect the usual layman understanding of the terms. The use of the term in the ad you saw is likely to be similar, rather than there being a special "FDA approved" definition.

Abecedare (talk) 04:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think 'acutely remembered' is important. As a layman, my impression of a vivid dream was one that, even if you knew you were dreaming, still seemed completely realistic. Or that after you woke, instead of it seeming like a dream, it still seemed completely real even though you now realized it wasn't. kwami (talk) 06:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

So funny -- I actually just had a seminar on the tobacco cessation drug to which you are referring, varenicline. "Vivid dreams" is a formal term used to describe intense dreams, the content of which one might normally not experience. Suicidal thoughts and irrational behavior are also side-effects. DRosenbach 18:11, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Six days left and I'm still uncomfortable calling them the "ohs", "aughts" or "noughties". How about you?

Civic Cat (talk) 17:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a intelligible question? DRosenbach 18:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

2000's. What do you call them?Civic Cat (talk) 18:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

2000s itself isn't very satisfying, because it is ambiguous. We use terms like 1800s and 1700s to refer to entire centuries, so 2000s could seem to refer to the entire 21st century. On the other hand, when I was a child (1960s-1970s), I remember the decade 1900–1909 being called the 1900s, so maybe there isn't such a risk of ambiguity while the century is still underway. I agree that aughts and noughties are also unsatisfying. Neither has caught on in the United States. Also, the first sounds archaic, and the second sounds silly. The word nought is not in common usage in the United States at least, so the word sounds like naughties, and for most people, the decade has not been fun at all, much less "naughty". (What went on on Wall Street and in the City of London went several steps beyond naughty.) There isn't a widely accepted term for the decade in the United States, but I think we will end up with 2000s or ohs. I prefer the latter. Looking back on the decade, a sigh seems fitting. Marco polo (talk) 18:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Marco Polo, and may you (and all Wikipedians) have a merry teens.
:-D
Civic Cat (talk) 19:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The expression "2000s" might refer to a decade, a century, or a millennium. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I propose the two thousands for the millennium, the twenty hundreds for the century, the twenty zeroes (abbreviated to the zeroes) for the first decade, and the twenty tens (abbreviated to the tens) for the second decade.Wavelength (talk) 19:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck with that. I propose "the third millennium" for the millennium, "the twenty-first century" for the century, "the first decade of the twenty-first century" for the first decade, and "the second decade of the twenty-first century" for the second decade. +Angr 21:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has information about determining the first year and the last year of a decade, a century, and a millennium.

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Twenty aughts" and "twenty tens" are pretty normal, even if the former sounds a bit 19th century. kwami (talk) 04:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Company Of Heroes (game)

In the WW2 game CoH, the Americans sometimes shout something that sounds like 'Krauts have got a feed on us'. Is this correct? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Have got a bead on us" (i.e., "have us in their gun sights"), perhaps. This sense of bead doesn't seem to be covered in the Wiktionary entry; see, however, senses 7 and 19 here. Deor (talk) 22:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, excellent, thanks! I suppose that makes some sense. Would anyone know if this has been taken from a film or if American soldiers do/did in fact say this sort of thing? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:44, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

According to my old Webster's, one version of a bead is a small knob of metal on a rifle, near the muzzle, used for a sight. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that this is the sort of thing that soldiers would have said during WW2. I don't know if the expression remains current. Marco polo (talk) 01:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

to draw a bead on H. L. Mencken in The American Language calls an obvious product of pioneer life, when discussing phrases which originated around the time of the revolutionary war. I found the phrase in a number of memoirs from World War II.—eric 03:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

December 25

Need a 7 letter word meaning last

Playing a game with someone and looking for a 7 letter word pertaining to Nero being the last Roman emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. It must end in the letter h. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell 00:26, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

'Last-ish'? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:44, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry :) This online thesaurus gave plenty of words, but not a single one ended in '-h'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:46, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

through? impeach? seventh? ("No hairy seventh to him succeeds.")—eric 03:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The word "through" fits nicely. Made a shortcut to Dictionary.com. The solved puzzle then comes out as

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, fifth Roman Emperor of through with the Julio-Claudian dynasty, was held in disrepute over the same ruled mortals and produced a history segment as misrepresentation of all the emperors who were in a dilemma, a tasteless history record on the dynasty.

I think it makes sense. He's a really old professor playing these games with me.

Found reference to "No hairy seventh to him succeeds" in Google Books here. Thanks for help.--Doug Coldwell 12:58, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Hair

What is the English term for the triangular extension of hair at the back of the neck? It is at the center of the back of the neck & is shaped like a triangle that is pointed downward and is most noticeable among hairy individuals.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Nape? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:20, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The nape is just the back of the neck. English has no word for the hair there, to my knowledge. Paul Davidson (talk) 10:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Dried eye fluid

When I wake up, I find that at the corners of my eyes near towards the nose bridge, there are solidified substances. What are they called?--68.215.227.182 (talk) 05:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It is sometimes referred to as Rheum. I hope this helps. JW.. 06:03, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--68.215.227.182 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Dried eye mucus is called "sleep". Paul Davidson (talk) 08:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I used to hear that stuff called "sleepers". It's fair to say that's probably a colloquialism. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:42, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Monkees Song Lyrics: "Daydream Believer": verse 1, line 5: "Wipe the sleep out of my eyes." Wavelength (talk) 17:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

eye boogers or eye crusties --Nricardo (talk) 18:13, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Backwards dictionary

Is there a way to find certain words with the letter they end with? For example, say I was looking for all 4 letter words that end with a. Or I was looking for all 6 letter words ending with an r. Or I was looking for all 10 letter words ending with s. Is there already such a program already out there someplace that provides this?--Doug Coldwell 15:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Any of the many Hangman solvers can do this. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:25, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Some solvers have limitations, but googling "Hangman solver" comes up with any number of them, so you're welcome to try them all out. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I like it! Thanks.--Doug Coldwell 15:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Evocative (on the question of syntax)

It is an old discussion. I thought someone would comment on this further, but that has not happened. Here is the OP: —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there a word to indicate that a word needs a subsidiary phrase. Eg Evocative or reminiscent which need the "of ...." Kittybrewster ☎ 16:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Phrasal verb seems to be what you're looking for. (But note that "evocative" can be used on its own, to refer to something that brings up emotions. (e.g. google {"very evocative" -"evocative of"} with the quotes, but without the curly braces). -- 128.104.112.94 (talk) 22:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

"Evocative of" is not a phrasal verb, because "evocative" is not a verb. --Anon, 06:26 UTC, December 22, 2009.

Also see subcategorization, though the article is woefully exiguous. --ColinFine (talk) 00:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Some languages might have evocative markers in their lexical or grammatical marking. In English, I doubt there is such thing; other than in poetical natures. However, if you can clarify this with a sentence, then it is easy to understand what you are saying. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of eg "It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley", "the smell is reminiscent of an abattoir". Kittybrewster ☎ 17:29, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

That is better. My answer is then these words (which I have not read often in contexts but according to corpora) usually form as a nominal in a sentence (though the examples are adjectival here), i.e. by taking of a subsidiary phrase (usually a prepositional phrase, as you said). And as they are adjectives, they can function as adjectives.

And to a different question on whether a word needs a subsidiary phrase in phrasal categories, other than ‘Comp phrase’ which requires a phrase, all other words can stand alone within their phrasal categories.

However, you may be correct on the assumption that ‘evocative’ as a rhetorical marker needs a subsidiary phrase in discourses (not just mentioning the grammatical aspect). If that is case, I do know the word for such feature either. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Kitty's question was perfectly clear (to a native speaker) in its original form. I'm glad Kitty's examples made the question clearer to you, Mihkaw.

I'm going back to the first anon, in the very first answer. The phrasal verb is is evocative of or is reminiscent of, with is as the verb.

You can replace "is evocative of" with the verb "evokes", for example It is evocative of the spirit of Manderley: It evokes the spirit of Manderley. You cannot similarly replace "evocative" when is evocative is used intransitively, because the verb evoke is pretty transitive. For example: It is certainly evocative: *It certainly evokes (although I suppose you might try, it would always sound like it was missing something to me). The of transforms it from intransitive to transitive. Perhaps a linguist could comment. 86.176.191.243 (talk) 18:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There are few new problems now, but I add one comment on the OP. The examples as stated above require first a noun phrase, though we see many such samples in English corpora. So I have to conclude that what we see in corpora are not correct as to their contexts in syntax, i.e. the word ‘evocative’ must be a noun or a modified noun before it can take a second AdjComp. One may argue however that the corpora are the most conventionalized speech patterns that give prominence to particular rhetorical elements than their syntax. —Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages help forums
• Misplaced Pages resources for researchers