Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:54, 6 January 2010

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This image simply isn't copyrightable.

References: Eltra Corp. v. Ringer: " typeface has never been considered entitled to copyright under the provisions of §5(g)" and a "Typeface" is a term defined by the House Report of the 1976 revision of the Copyright Act as "...a set of letters, numbers, or other symbolic characters...whose intrinsic utilitarian function is for use in composing text."

This logo consists of two letters: a "W" and a "V" with serifs at the top of each. Comparable images include File:Texas-Tech-University-logo.png, File:LA_Dodgers.svg, and File:ALC-DET-Insignia.png (among others). As such. this logo is not copyrightable.

By contrastASCII art or the Washington State University logo are letters are not intended to be used explicitly as letters, but as a medium by which an artistic image is formed. Accordingly, I'm fixing the licensing as this image is not copyrigthable.

If you are going to change this licensing to anything else, please explain what is incorrect about the above assertions. — BQZip01 —  05:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I copied everything from the PNG file to the SVG file, so that all of the information is saved and no new rationales had to be written. User:Zscout370 06:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand, but the older file had problems with their rationales as they were unnecessary. I deleted them according to the above. — BQZip01 —  02:50, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If I can be honest, I give up when it comes to the text logos. I still won't quit drawing them in SVG, or at least getting SVG quality, but I have been tied up in IRL messes and Commons backlogs. User:Zscout370 05:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

You didn't do anything wrong, I was just explaining what I'd done and then clarifying since it appears you had some comments/questions. Keep up the good work and, if you need any help, don't hesitate to drop me a line. :-) — BQZip01 —  06:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

• The standing conclusion of the prior discussion is there is no consensus this is free. As such, I have, yet again, reverted BQZip01's attempts to declare this free. I request, yet again, that BQZip01 or any other interested party start an RfC in order to evaluate if consensus has changed to an agreement that this image is free. BQZip, you need to stop edit warring in an attempt to get your way. It doesn't work that way, and you know it. You edit warred on the prior image, and now you've carried forward this edit war to this new image. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

  Is there anywhere you will not follow me? This is a new image. There was NO consensus in another image's prior RfC. That doesn't mean the "default" is "we do whatever Hammersoft wants since he the the most cautious and wants to have a completely 💕 with NO nonfree images". The RfC never even addressed ANY of the concerns mentioned above. Furthermore, you have the uncanny knack of sidetracking any discussion into irrelevancies and your personal beliefs as to how Misplaced Pages should be run. You have answered nothing I've addressed above and refuse to discuss ANYTHING unless you have a bigger platform (i.e. an RfC). If you won't discuss any points here, why would I trust you to discuss any points there? Why can't you address them here and now like WP:TALK dictates we should do (not that I expect you to answer any of these questions or attempt to build a consensus)? — BQZip01 —  05:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

  You know full well that the prior discussion resulted in no consensus that this image was free. You know full well that this image is essentially identical to the prior image except the colors are reversed. For a year now you have been trying to force your way onto this image by editing to declare it to be free. Myself and others have contested this declaration yet you still insist on edit warring in an attempt to force your personal decision that this is free. The next step in dispute resolution is an RfC. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but tough. Edit warring is NOT the answer. Get consensus. You don't have it in support of your opinion. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see relevant ANI thread. -FASTILY 16:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

links for convenience:

• talk page of old image
• discussion at "Media copyright questions"

--Enric Naval (talk) 20:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Good Lord, will no one actually read what I wrote?!?! Where the **** am I wrong in the above assertions!?!? Everyone is just saying, "no, you're wrong" without addressing anything I have brought up. Why not address the issues? That is what a talk page is for. I guess HS just wants a bigger stage from which to shout his edicts? — BQZip01 —  15:14, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Ummmmm. Yes, I did read what you wrote up above. The community and HC have generated more than enough evidence which couldn't have done a better job proving you dead wrong. Frankly, I can't even begin to comprehend why that is so difficult for you to understand. Perhaps you should try educating yourself first by reading up on some relevant policies before making egregious claims regarding Misplaced Pages image policy: WP:NFC, WP:IUP, WP:NFCC, WP:LOGO. That being said, please stop your trolling. I'm going to close this discussion now as nothing meaningful has come out of it. -FASTILY 19:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let's make this simple

What about this logo is copyrightable? All I see is a "W" and a "V" with serifs on each, standard ornamentation for letters. As such, they aren't copyrightable (as explained ad nauseum). What am I missing here?

"You are wrong", "It's been explained before", etc. are not valid answers because they explain NOTHING. — BQZip01 —  09:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The logo is not copyrightable. It is composed simply of slightly stylized/ornamented letters. Mere typographic ornamentation is not sufficient for copyright. →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Now you're straying from the word of our current policy on the matter, and, as this is a legal issue, the exact word of the policy is important. We need confirmation about this and, until it is forthcoming, we will be treating this as non-free. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Please advise me of the policy to which you are referring. I wasn't commenting from a Misplaced Pages policy standpoint but from what the law says regarding what can and cannot be copyrighted. →Wordbuilder (talk) 01:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

But we don't follow the laws of the US here. We follow wikipedia policies which are more restrictive than the laws, in order to stay always on the safe side and protect the wikimedia foundation from burning itself with some copyright lawsuit. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:08, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Wordbuilder is on the right track here. For non-free content criteria to apply, we would first have to have a copyrighted/copyrightable image. Our assertion is that this isn't copyrightable and, therefore, WP:NFCC doesn't apply. So the issue is indeed a legal one. The confirmation you desire is just that: a desire. That requirement is your personal preference, not policy. As Wordbuilder said, if there is a policy that applies, please provide a link for community perusal. And that is the conundrum: the problem is that there isn't a policy or guideline regarding how to determine whether or not such images are uncopyrightable (if there were, we wouldn't be having this conversation). This leaves us only with the legal perspective.

FWIW, we do follow the laws of the US and we have crafted our policies to fit within those laws. This kind of image is an example of where our policy is lacking (trademarks ineligible for copyright). Lastly, we should avoid copyright paranoia. We cannot take a "well I'm not sure, so we should treat it as non-free"-attitude. Become educated on the subject and determine for yourself whether an image is or isn't copyrightable. — BQZip01 —  07:04, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I would still be interested in reading the policy referred to earlier. I would also be interested in reading the policy about Misplaced Pages being more restrictive than the law. The line has to be drawn somewhere or we would simply have to call nearly every image non-free. For instance, see the article Food. There are at least seven images where one could argue derivative work, including the tractor image (John Deere and Hawe logos), the sushi image (artwork on cup), McDonald's restaurant (McDonald's logo), and three images of packaged food (company logos and/or possibly copyrighted photos). Wordbuilder (talk) 20:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I see no indication in previous discussion that anybody has taken the simple and obvious step of asking wvu if they claim a copyright. If they say that they don't, then they don't have a copyright and there's nothing to argue about here. If they say that they do, then the issue needs to be decided here.

Certainly it looks as if they mean for it to be a trademark with the circle-R indicating that it is a registered trademark. Mere reproduction of a graphical trademark is neither infringing nor dilutionary. Since a trademark may always be used truthfully, Misplaced Pages logo files which merely assert "this is a graphical trademark used by $FOO to describe $BAR" is never infringing. Perhaps this logo is also copyrightable? Sometimes trademark protection is difficult to get in every involved country, requiring registration and such. A lawyer would then recommend that copyright be asserted over the graphic trademark. Since this is a logo of a U.S. corporation, it's only reasonable to apply U.S. law, which requires a certain minimum amount of creativity. In this case, rendering the first two letters of the team's name in the colors of the team hardly seems like it would meet that amount of creativity.

Consequently, my opinion is: not copyrightable. --RussNelson (talk) 03:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It is clearly {{PD-textlogo}}. The image is not copyrightable under current U.S. law at it clearly indicates that "mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring" are not eligible for copyright protection" (see User:Elcobbola/Copyright). It is trademarked and should be considered PD-textlogo. There is no existing Misplaced Pages policy, nor consensus, to suggest it should be alternatively tagged or otherwise considered. CrazyPaco (talk) 03:54, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I sent an email to the folks at http://tls.wvu.edu/ to see what kind of information I can get. User:Zscout370 04:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

• Let's make this simple. Start an RfC so we get more input than just the people on this talk page. We're obviously not going to achieve consensus here, and it is the next step in dispute resolution. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:58, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

  Let's make this simpler and try to find a solution here before going to an RfC as WP:TALK dictates. Zscout370 has sent an e-mail, so let's wait and see the results. — BQZip01 —  16:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

  You've previously strongly objected to contacting copyright holders to ask for their opinion. As to finding a solution 'here', this discussion has been going on for a long time, both here and on the prior image with no resolution. Start an RfC. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

  Hammer, indeed I have made similar objections, but not the way you are twisting my words. I object to it as a requirement (it isn't stated anywhere in policy or guidelines). I've also objected to the way such requests were demanded to be made ("Is this copyrighted!?!" when in fact the question should have been "Do you assert any copyright protections over this logo or just trademark protections"). You do not need to start an RfC (or demand one be started) every time you & I disagree. — BQZip01 —  00:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  Was it me or did an RFC about the UCLA logo, touching the very same issue, pretty much went nowhere? User:Zscout370 18:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

  I would disagree. Consensus went against my view that the "tail" was typographic ornamentation and was declared non-PD. While I disagree with the conclusion, I'm fine with a consensus outcome by which we can all cleanly abide. — BQZip01 —  00:11, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  BQZ, if it is fine with you, can I forward you the email that I sent to the WVU office? I do not expect a quick reply due to the holiday season. User:Zscout370 03:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  That'd be fine. I don't expect a quick reply period. — BQZip01 —  16:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, what makes the logo copyrightable is primarily the original creative decision to stack the letters in the way that they've been stacked, combined with creative choices actually chosen in making the letters stackable in that way. The letterforms themselves (shape and color) are not copyrightable for the reasons BQZip01 has cited; anyone is free to create a typeface that contained those exact W and V forms in those exact shades. The fact that the "stacking" is arguably a minimal amount of creativity is irrelevant; the threshold is any non-trivial creativity at all (a standard linear arrangement of the W and V to form a logo would be trivially creative, in my opinion, and thus not qualify for copyright protection). A semi-analogous issue in copyright law occurs with facts. Facts are not copyrightable; sweat of the brow collections of facts are not copyrightable in the US, but copyrightable in other parts of the worls. Creatively selected or arranged sets of facts are copyrightable in the US, as long as the selection or arrangement is not "simple and obvious". The stacking of the letters in that particular way is not quite "simple and obvious" either, in my opinion. Studerby (talk) 00:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

For comparison, another logo that is made solely of typographical variation is the Enron logo. I think most casual observers would "feel" that it's a copyrightable work. While there's more creativity in the Enron logo, it's elements are all letterforms. There's a difference of amount, but not of kind, between Enron and WV. Studerby (talk) 00:24, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

And on the flip side, the Virginia Commonwealth University logo is not copyrightable (and properly marked as such), because of the lack of creativity in the arrangement of the typographic elements. Studerby (talk) 00:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to touch the Enron logo because I can easily see both sides of the argument ("The letters are creatively arranged" "but they are creatively arranged to form a letter", etc. Let's stick with a simpler logo: the flying WV and caselaw. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up Ets-Hokin v. Skyy Spirits Inc. in which the courts ruled

" claim to copyright cannot be registered in a print or label consisting solely of trademark subject matter and lacking copyrightable matter." Although a label's "graphical illustrations" are normally copyrightable, "textual matter" is not--at least not unless the text "aid or augment" an accompanying graphical illustration.

So, textual material, such as this one, isn't eligible for copyright; the arrangement is irrelevant. — BQZip01 —  08:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The only thing I know of so far from snooping around the WVU pages is that it is a registered trademark with the US and West Virginia authorities and the logo needs to have the trademark notice. I still see nothing about copyright and I cannot seem to find a date of creation (while, BQZ, it won't matter to you, but it does to me. Once I know the date, I can see what other reasons than just PD-text.). User:Zscout370 09:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

ZScout, the date of creation certainly matters to me. If it is PD for another reason, it can end this discussion and provide additional reasons the logo would not be eligible for copyright protection. According to sportslogos.net, the logo was created or put into use in 1980. The color inversion shouldn't play into copyright updates (Hey! My copyright protection is about to run out. I'll make my logo green instead just to extend the copyright...doesn't work that way). While this isn't the most reliable website, it does give a ballpark figure from which to work. — BQZip01 —  16:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The example I bring up is the Block W logo for Washington University. Yes, it is just a bolded W. However, according to official university documents, the logo has been present since 1902. Anything published by a known author before 1923 in the USA is public domain due to age. User:Zscout370 18:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for rehashing it, though I think we are all aware of 1923. If you are interested in other important dates with regard to PD... — BQZip01 —  06:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

You will be surprised at what kind of stuff copyright law brings us. People are still not aware of that Cornell link you and I use on a daily basis. User:Zscout370 06:16, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Ummm.... BQZip01, I think you misread Ets-Hokin v. Skyy Spirits Inc. First, the court didn't rule what you quoted, they were quoting the Code of Federal Regulations, 37 C.F.R. § 202.10(b) (as they noted). And I'm 99% sure that section of the CFR was written by the copyright office; in other words, they were quoting a bit of the registration guidelines. They weren't clarifying the line between "textual matter" and "graphical illustrations", which I argue is relevant to the question before us. Instead, they had an unquestionable bit of "textual matter" in the Skyy label. Second, in the very next paragraph after the one you quoted, the court said, We need not, however, decide whether the label is copyrightable...'. In other words, to paraphrase the court - "the party's argument that the photograph was a copyright violation because the label was copyrighted would probably fail because the label probably isn't copyrightable, but we don't have to figure that out because it was a picture of a bottle, not a picture of a label, and we already figured out that the bottle is a utilitarian object not subject to copyright"; they're dismissing the question, not deciding it. And we can all agree that the Skyy label has purely textual matter - letters lined up in one of the the conventional ways of lining up letters. And you at least saw the the other side of the argument with Enron, because the graphic elements are so strong there, even though the figurative elements were all letters. I argue that the WV logo is more like the Enron logo - both contain a creative arrangement of elements in space. It is the graphical creativity of arranging the elements in that way that is copyrightable and the court did not have a textual logo with such a graphic component before it.

To come back around to the topic of this question "Let's make this simple" - BQZip01 asked "What about this logo is copyrightable?" I answered "what makes the logo copyrightable is primarily the original creative decision to stack the letters in the way that they've been stacked, combined with creative choices actually chosen in making the letters stackable in that way". Now, is it seriously being argued that no arrangements of letters in space is copyrightable? That absolutely no ASCII art is copyrightable? That a pontillistic masterpeice would lose copyright if it were composed solely of letters? My 25 years of reading copyright cases tells me that the sine qua non of copyrightability is creativity; virtually every Supreme Court decision since the 1976 Act contains at least a passing reference to encouraging "creativity" and/or "original work(s)" as . The reason "textual material" of logos isn't copyrightable is not because it's made up of letters, but because it's not deemed sufficiently creative to lay out a short line of text. If you accept that ASCII art can be copyrighted because it's obviously creative, then the question before us is: "where is the line"? I assert that line is just about as low as it can possibly be, any creativity greater than trivial. This opinion is based on the copyright cases I've read; Feist (mentioned above) is just one such. Now, I'll grant that the creativity in the WV log is pretty minimal; I can't think of a less creative logo design consisting solely of text elements that I would argue is copyrightable. On the spectrum from "text on a line" to "full-blown ASCII art", I draw the line with "novel letter placements" on the copyrightable side. Where do you draw the line? Studerby (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

• In the United States, the bar has historically been set very low, and courts err on the side of creator's rights to the work. This is not the case in all countries. For example, Germany has a considerably higher bar. More specific to this case, I see the intentional placement of the letters, the colors used to accent the visual outline of the letters, and the fact of the letter placement generating a mountainscape emblematic of their name as "Mountaineers" as creative elements above and beyond simple text, and surpassing the threshold of creativity required in the United States to grant copyright. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The popularly termed "Flying WV" logo consists solely of the interlocked stylized letters W and V. The idea that the design represents a "moutainscape" is obscure, and has only been retroactively applied much later by a few outside the university or its constituents (the only examples of which I can find are in a Dec 2004 Sports Illustrated column by Pete McEntegart or in recent discussions here on Misplaced Pages), and has no actual basis in the creation or history of the logo, nor is such association typically made by the university's alumni or fans. It also is never described as such in the logo's filings with the US Patent & Trademark office, which officially and consistently only refers to the mark as being comprised of "the stylized letters 'WV'" in both documentation originating from the trademark office and the university itself, and additionally, is filed under mark code 5 ("words, letters, and/or numbers in stylized form"). Further, several variations of the stylized WV logo are commonly used, including (and originally) without the use of "the colors used to accent the visual outline of the letters", indicative that these are not necessary design components of the logo. Even if they were necessary components, such ornamentation of letters clearly does not qualify the W and V as meeting the threshold of protection under US copyright law, as they are merely "variations of typographic ornamentation". In addition, WVU's official policies and treatments of the logo do not suggest they ever have, or in the future intend to pursue, anything beyond typical trademark protections. The logo is no different than a monogram and in no way meets the the criteria for copyright protection under existing US law/precedent. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Paco, NICE WORK!!! I think that category "filed under mark code 5 ('words, letters, and/or numbers in stylized form')" may be just the kind of black line we need for Misplaced Pages. I'm not saying everyone agrees to it yet, but if we can use {{PD-Code5}}, this may drastically simplify things. — BQZip01 —  00:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There is also code 4: standard character mark for non-stylized lettering (e.g. when one "particular style of lettering" isn't perscribed). For these, specific image variations of standard marks aren't individually filed apart from the general code 4 filing. An example would be the specific logo image of the arched block Pitt currently in use for the University of Pittsburgh) which would fall under the code 4 filing of "PITT" here, but whose specific arched block image is only seen in the accompanying specimen submission. Code 4 isn't style specific (like the block of Texas A&M's aTm logo is and therefore filed with Code 5 ) and thus could be thought of as a broader filing (or not font/style specific). These code 4 logos may be trickier to track down and thus have such a system applied in Misplaced Pages, but it could be done I suppose.

However, for logos that are filed with the trademark office, any images incorporated into them are always described, and those images and are coded distinctly (e.g. 3=Design + words, letters and numbers). There are also individual "Design Search Codes" for specific shapes like stars, state outlines, hats & helmets, etc. (a list of design code is available here) Such marks would more likely be copyrightable. So in such circumstances, trademark search and subsequent filing codes and descriptions should provide a way to screen logo images that have been individually filed. For instance, and in contrast to the Flying WV logo, the Washington State logo, with the W S U forming a cougar head, is filed as Code 3, and includes design search codes for cats, heads of animals, stylized animals, and animals composed of letters. In addition, the image of the cougar head is also specifically described under "Description of the Mark". Just to be sure, if it wasn't clear above, the Flying WV logo has nothing in the "Description of Mark" provided by the university or office describing anything but text (no mountainscape). It does not contain Design Search Codes for 06.01.04 - Mountains (landscapes); Scenery with mountains, or 27.01.04 - Letters forming objects (in contrast to this example), nor is it tagged for 25.01.25 - "Borders, ornamental; Other framework and ornamental borders" as was suggested. It has also never filed with the US Copyright office (search completed at ) Simply, it is just text, and not copyrightable. CrazyPaco (talk) 08:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC

• You do not have to file with the US Copyright Office to have copyright on your works. Copyright is automatic. You say it's text and not copyrightable. Others, including myself, say it is copyrightable. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. Rabbit season. Duck season. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone not aware of the fact that trademarks can be copyrighted and that copyright is automatic for things that are copyrightable? Rehashing something we all agree on isn't helpful.

Simply declaring these as "copyrightable" doesn't make them so. You have shown nothing outside of intra-WP conjecture that the logo consists of anything other than textual material. I think it is just text. Paco + others think it is just text. The owner of the mark thinks it is just text. The US government thinks it is just text. You say they are all wrong; "It is copyrightable", but no one outside of Misplaced Pages agrees with your assessment and nothing to back that claim up. It is not coded with anything you or anyone else claims to be copyrightable (as noted above).

1. "They look like they are kind of like mountains" CrazyPaco has shown (quite definitively) that they aren't
2. "They are more than just text" Even the University didn't file it as such. They would be hard pressed to claim copyright that it was anything other than text when they didn't even file it as such within the trademark system.

By using the trademark descriptions, we could more accurately and objectively categorize logos. Those falling under X, Y, or Z would be considered copyrightable. Those that fall under A, B, and C without falling under X, Y, or Z would not be copyrightable. By using such a system it would drastically alter how we assess logos and significantly reduce the amount of "Well I think that..." type disagreements. — BQZip01 —  17:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

• CrazyPaco is the one that raised the issue that it's not registered with the copyright office. What reason to raise it unless in defense of it supposedly being copyright free? I simply responded to what was said. But, thank you once again for calling me unhelpful. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I said your rehashing was not helpful. I never said you were unhelpful personally.

Thanks for once again not addressing anything I actually brought up.

In this discussion, it would be completely remiss if someone had not checked for a copyright filing by the university, since it is easy and free to do so. Of course, an owner does not have to file, no one suggested that one has to file. However, any corporations and organizations of such complexity and resources, as universities, would likely file if they seriously intend to seek such protection for such an important "work of art" for themselves, because it can be advantageous, legally, to do so... that is if such protection was actually desired (although the Flying WV would never pass the copyright office). However, as you stated, because you don't file does not mean rights are so relinquished under current law. In this particular case of the Flying WV, there is zero evidence West Virginia University previously attempted, expects, or seeks such protection for this mark, nor has the allowance for decades of the use of this mark by and in all sorts of media (of which Misplaced Pages can be a member), consistent with them desiring such protection (trying to enforce such restrictions is most likely in complete opposition to the media visibility they desire to achieve for the mark). If they had desired to protect such rights, they'd would have had to act to protect the copyright status, which they have not done for the almost 30 years of its existence, and all of this inaction regarding protection of its theoretical copyright would severely damage any case if the university reversed their opinion and decided to attempt to legally enforce a copyright. Not to mention, the descriptions in their legal filings to the trademark office would make it virtually impossible to argue for some sort of copyright protection. Universities and their legal councils aren't stupid, they know exactly what use and protections are fitting for their images based on design and intended use.

The thing is, anyone can "claim" a copyright over anything (which WVU has never done in this case), but that in itself does not make it valid. I can claim a copyright to "CrazyPaco", and attach a © to my signature, but even with fancy stylized letters, if those claims are ever challenged in court, they would be thrown out faster than an f-bomb rollback. In the case of the Flying WV, the university has never sought nor even claimed copyright, and legally, it is clearly not an image defensible under current U.S. copyright precedent, and their trademark filing clearly reflects that. CrazyPaco (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

• You've heard from WVU then? They don't claim copyright on that logo and never have? I thought zscout sent the letter..? Your "clearly" isn't so clear to myself and others. I can just as well say it clearly DOES enjoy protections of copyright (and in fact do, as do others) --Hammersoft (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, legally, what public action WVU has taken regarding this issue essentially means we have been hearing from them on this issue for almost 30 years now. What ZSout gets back in an email response from WVU is virtually meaningless. Someone at the trademark office at WVU can claim a copyright for the school, but that would only indicate that individual responding to the email either does not understand what copyright means, or is being intentionally overaggressive in an attempt to dissuade the use of the trademark in a manner which they don't understand but can't otherwise prevent. 30 years of WVU's inaction in defending a hypothetical copyright, the fact they've made no prior claim, the descriptions in their own legal trademark filings, and the lack of such claims on their publicly accessible official logo guideline sheet speaks much louder about their desire and ability to enforce a copyright, than any email that may be received from WVU. Anyone in the world can make a copyright claim over any image currently on Misplaced Pages. That doesn't mean the claim is at all valid. This case is about as clear cut as it can get. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

• What we get back from WVU is virtually meaningless? Ok, I have to admit, I stopped reading right there and don't plan to read further. This is absurd. None of us are IP lawyers, and we're making IP decisions that we're now going to say over rule anything WVU lawyers have to say on the matter? I'm sorry, but the bounds of credulity just got exceeded lock, stock and barrel. Done. Full stop. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is essentially meaningless either way. Actually, BillTunell is a lawyer, I believe with some experience in IP, and has previously stated his opinion that the Flying WV was not copyrightable (quote "I'd agree that the WV logo does nto meet hte originality threshold. It's a letter-color combination, pure and simple. The "WV" is infinitely less complex than the IBM or Coca-Cola logos. "Positioning" and "color" are simply not copyrightable elements under U.S. Copyright Office's Compendium of copyright registration standards, Section 506.03."). Lawyer, judge or layman, it comes down to opinion. All we have is precedent, and that is clearly not on the side of there being a defensible copyright claim on the image. CrazyPaco (talk) 20:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

• I seem to recall challenging Tunnell on his credentials, which went unanswered. One Essjay is enough. I don't have any reason to believe the (absent) credentials than Essjay's. You keep saying clearly, and I'll keep saying it clearly falls the other way. You're right. It's your opinion. I have mine. So do others. We're not reaching any agreement on this and further discussion (after a year of it now) isn't going to yield any more agreement than we already have. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me further clarify the problem with contacting mark owners, and it is that almost no one is ever going to publicly release their mark to the public domain (especially the person answering the emails). Even if that mark's copyright claims are completely indefensible, the vast majority of corporations and mark owners will never make public statements like that, for which the only reason to do so would be to settle some sort of cultural debate within Misplaced Pages....and that is not among their priorities. For one, they don't know how law will change in the future regarding these things and therefore, how such public, archived statements could come back to haunt them. Like many Misplaced Pages policies and categorizations, every PD-text logo comes down to a judgement call of Misplaced Pages editors, unless it falls into that class by age. That said, I doubt you'd even get Coke to declare their Coca-Cola script logo public domain in an email either. You either have to scrap the PD-text category entirely, or rely on judgement provided by legal precedent and things like documented evidence provided in something like a trademark filing. CrazyPaco (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

• You don't need to scrap anything. What has to happen is for there to be agreement something is free. We can all agree the Coca-Cola logo is free by way of age, regardless of what the company says. It's not clear in this case that it is free. You think it's clear, but there's pretty much evenly divided opinion on that. You don't have agreement that it is free, and (BQZip's protestations about this point aside) without that agreement or a release statement from the IP holder, we're not going to consider it free. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

As requested now numerous times, what policy/guideline requires an "agreement or a release statement from the IP holder we're not going to consider it free"? In fact, as Wordbuilder pointed out, there is none. I understand this is how you want WP to run, but it is your preference, not policy.

The way I see it, Wordbuilder, myself, RussNelson, and CrazyPaco have provided exhaustive research, detailed answers, and rationales as to why the image is a trademark ineligible for copyright protections. The response on the other side of the equation is a demand to comply with a nonexistent policy without addressing whether the image does or does not fall under the aforementioned provisions (J Milburn), a dubious statement that we don't comply with US law on Misplaced Pages again without actually addressing the issue (Enric Naval), and your consistent denial that anything said here makes any difference. We also have Studerby's opinions which are backed up by facts, but with no current response. The way I count this is about 4 to 2 to label as nonfree with 3 opinions on process and imaginary policies being discounted in the grand total. — BQZip01 —  21:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Studerby, I truly appreciate a full explanation. I really do.

To answer the basics of your above question, it depends on the use of such letters. As I stated at the top, if letters are not intended to be used explicitly as letters, but as a medium by which an artistic image is formed, such as in ASCII art or the Washington State University logo, then they are copyrightable as the letters are not "textual material" (sure, they are indeed letters, but their function is not that of simply being letters).

Also as stated above, comparable images for this logo include File:Texas-Tech-University-logo.png, File:LA_Dodgers.svg, and File:ALC-DET-Insignia.png (among others). As such. this logo is not copyrightable.

Using your standard, "...it's not deemed sufficiently creative to lay out a short line of text." The W and V are indeed laid out in a short diagonal line of text.

"And we can all agree that the Skyy label has purely textual matter - letters lined up in one of the the conventional ways of lining up letters." Well, I don't agree with that assertion completely. In that "conventional way", the SKYY label uses letters that are "smashed" together with no space (much as the WV logo here)...which isn't so conventional. Other text-only logos use that similar/identical/related methods as well (, , , , , ,WP image 1, WP image 2, etc) so putting letters in a diagonal arrangement isn't copyrightable (as it is a "simple" arrangement) or there would be lawsuits galore over copyright infringement.

"Now, is it seriously being argued that no arrangements of letters in space is copyrightable?" Not at all. See above. But "textual material", which I believe to be best described as "letters intended to be used as letters", is not. — BQZip01 —  23:20, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

• When is the RfC going to start? --Hammersoft (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

  When it is necessary. Stop rehashing your demands. Again, that isn't helpful. — BQZip01 —  21:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

It is PD regardless of whether you consider it text or not!

This logo was first published in 1984 and was not published with a copyright notice. Accordingly, it was "Published without notice, and without subsequent registration within 5 years" and is ineligible for copyright protections. Accordingly, I'm reverting with a different tag on the logo for PD justification. — BQZip01 —  21:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)