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Commons/enwiki policy interaction

See User talk:OrangeDog#File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg.

A knotty problem has come up. Commons' image policy does not match our own, leading to problems when Commons images used on enwiki articles are edited within Commons' policy but not ours. What should the proper course of action be? Force Commons users to follow the policies of all wikis on which the images are used? Set up a task force to check every modification of a Commons image used here and upload an old version locally if necessary? Unify all projects' image policy? Stop using Commons? I can't see a sensible solution. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:50, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Apparently Commons' policy does link to ours (via a circuitous route), but the issue of what to do about it still remains. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 17:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

If there's a disagreement about modifications made to an image (in this case, coloring), people usually upload another file that has the changes. So one is the original upload, and the other is the derivative. On Commons, at least. Killiondude (talk) 17:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The appropriate thing to do with radical edits such as color correction on historic photochroms is to upload the original for recordkeeping purposes, then upload the edited version under a separate filename. Please link between the two and describe the edits. The file hosting page for the featured picture below has detailed descriptions of the edits performed.

• Hotel Del Coronado, circa 1900
• Unrestored
• Restored

Photochrom prints are a difficult example to use for discussion because few people understand what they really were. When media editors correct for fading and yellowing a photochrom's colors "look fake". The impression is correct: photochrom colors really are fake. A photochrom is basically the nineteenth century's version of colorization. It's a hybrid between black and white photography and lithography. They used sixteen color plates at most, which doesn't yield much subtlety. And sometimes the plates didn't line up perfectly or the ink ran. The example above is by William Henry Jackson who was the most important photographer to work in the photochrom medium. Photochroms stopped being produced commercially around the time when technology improved enough to produce color films.

If we're going to have a policy discussion on this issue, I really suggest using a different medium as example that requires less explanation. Durova 18:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

All projects use the images on Commons, not just this wikipedia, and each one may develop their own policies or consensus. If there's some disagreement on the version to use of a certain image (such as restored vs. original), simply upload it as a new file and mention the original. Even if it's the same "thing" (such as a reproduction of a portrait), it wouldn't be deleted as duplicated if the images are different enough. Commons respects this.

Have in mind that Commons is a project of a different nature than this one (an encyclopedia vs. a database), and some policies here would hardly make any sense there. Most policies are about copyright issues, and about giving projects freedom to decide on their own rather than to impose them which image to use. MBelgrano (talk) 00:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Can someone take time to explain (for me at least) what our policy says that is so different than Commons; and WHY that difference is important? Even though I have nothing to contribute to this discussion I do like to learn new things and keep up on the goings on of Misplaced Pages, and maybe the answer to my question will be useful for someone else who can contribute an insight.Camelbinky (talk) 03:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Some people here want us to use non-retouched scans of photographs. However, all material on commons is free content, and just like Misplaced Pages articles anything that is posted to commons can be mercilessly edited. So people sometimes retouch photographs that have been uploaded there. The exact same thing is true for these photographs if they are uploaded to enwiki: anyone can overwrite them with a retouched version at any time.

There is no real problem, though, because commons will accept a courtesy copy of the original, non-retouched scan alongside the retouched one, under a different name. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:30, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didnt know that about Commons. I just go there and find images for articles I'm working on and occassionaly upload a new image there that Im going to use here anyways; I never knew they were getting "edited". Thank you for that insight. I dont know if I have any opinion either way though, other than that Commons, as a separate endeavor, should be allowed to make their own "rules" without us trying to interfere.Camelbinky (talk) 03:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

You surely know about the Neutral point of view that articles in wikipedia must have, no support or rejection from us, opinions described rather than manifested, etc. It's a core principle, one of the most important ones, so it serves as a good example. See here, neutral point of view applies at small sections but not to images themselves. This portrait of José de San Martín, for example, clearly exalts him, while this caricature of Darwin as an ape clearly insults him. However, we don't do anything at all to "fix" the images and turn them into "neutral" despictions of such people: they are biased images, but we accept them as they are.

There are countless other examples. The whole Manual of Style and related policies and guidelines have little to no saying in commons: having just images, galleries, categories and project pages, where would you apply them? Can overlinking or trivia sections ever become a problem there?

I guess that the only common thing between projects that would justify having common policies would be the topics related to accounts and/or user interaction. Don't make personal attacks or don't bite the newbies, for example, apply there the same as here. And of course, images themselves. Misplaced Pages can have local rules regarding to an exception doctrine for non-free images, but images labeled as free should be able to pass all related Common policies: if an image is uploaded here and tagged with a free licence, but fails to comply with policies such as Derivative works or De Minimis, then it should be deleted. MBelgrano (talk) 03:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC) Note: edit conflict

Maybe it's a good thing to recap the discussion on User talk:OrangeDog#File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg. One of the pictures that is used to illustrate the article about Photochrom pictures is File:Scotland-Staffa-Fingals-Cave-1900.jpg. The yellowing caused by aging has been corrected. OrangeDog objects to that. He feels that it does not accuratly display the characteristics of a Photochrom image, and he claims that it should not have been de-yellowed, because the picture is not an image of the subject (Fingals-Cave) but an image of a photochrom-image. My suggestion to upload an unprocessed image, with a clear title and description that it should not be restored by anyone, was not enough, and neither was my suggestion to use File:Oberammergau 1900.jpg which is unprocessed and survived the time rather well, and therefore more accuratly than the aged pictures shows the qualities of the photochrom technique. He could also have browsed the category Photochrom pictures from the Library of Congress, because there is an abundant supply of unprocessed photochrom pictures.

A 3d opinion was requested and it resulted in TransporterMan's advise based on the English Misplaced Pages:OR#Original_images page that the modification of the hue en luminesence of a photochrom picture violates the original research policy, and therefore could be considered a distortion of the facts or position being illustrated.

This discussion is about these two facts. Although there are plenty of possibities to illustrate the article, OrangeDog sticks to his objections to the state of one of the nine pictures used on the Photochrom page (although all of them have been modified to some extend). His opinion that the photochrom images on commons are not images of subjects but images of photochrom images is in my view narrow, they are both. And it is not meaningful to return a 1000+ pictures on Commons to there original state, just to illustrate one article. Furthermore, Transporterman claims that the English OR page applies to Commons, but Commons does not have an OR page. Besides that, there are incompatibilities between the English OR page and the other foreign language OR pages. A quick survey showed that they do not have an image clause on which TransportMan relied to make his statement.

I do not agree that photochrom pictures are solely images of photochrom images. I do not agree that the restoration of images, whether it is the modification of luminesence and hue or removing of dust and scratches, is a distortion of the facts or position being illustrated. I do believe that commons is there for all, and should be able to service the foreign language wikipedia's that do not have the Image clause incorperated in their OR-page. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:10, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see where the color adjustment (or other restorative corrections, like cropping or rotating the image) of vintage photochromes amounts to an en.wiki policy violation. Clearly the provision in WP:OR#Original_images requires a manipulative intent, to distort the facts displayed in the original. While I'm not always in agreement with Jan's restorations on aesthetic grounds, I don't see anything where he can be accused of trying to alter the facts of the image. In fact, there are a number of examples of photochromes on the LOC webpage which have been scanned more than once, and which show that simple differences in scanner settings create a bigger variation in color settings than the corrections by Jan, Durova, or me. Nevertheless, I recommend keeping a record of intermediate versions in the upload history, so that editors can retrieve an unrestored version if they need one for their purposes. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

My objection is on principle. That any image used to illustrate the properties (here colour) of something should not have those properties changed based on the editor's personal preference or original research. The original should have been left as it was, and a new version uploaded. That would have avoided the difficult-to-detect distortion of facts that occurred on the Photochrom article. The question is whether the editor should be responsible for the consequences of their actions (as on enwiki), or the person who stumbles across the problem. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 12:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing worse than using a photochrome to illustrate the color of any object, since all photochromes were colorized from memory in the lab, based on black & white photographs, and inaccuracies abound (cf. the flags in File:1897_Stockholm_Exposition_06231v.jpg). You're trying to impose a standard of "originality" that simply doesn't exist. We depend on our editors to upload their original images to illustrate contemporary objects and accept their decisions on camera settings and perspective as long as this is done in good faith. Nowhere is this considered "original research". The number of restored photochromes that have been granted Featured Picture status both here and on Commons also demostrates that careful restoration is an accepted practice. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The photochroms at Photochrom are not being used to illustrate the colour of an object, they are being used to illustrate the colours of a photochrom. Images have been changed so that their meaning has changed in the context of the article that uses them.

The modifications are not based on the user's original image and settings, but their self-admitted own research into what they think the object used to look like. How does one know whether this or this is more faithful to the colours originally chosen by the printer?

Take another example. Suppose that I improve an image of a person by removing red-eye artefacts. Certainly I have improved the image, as well as the article about the person. However, if the image was used at red-eye effect to illustrate red-eye, then I have completely changed the meaning of the image. If I had checked the image usage beforehand I could have uploaded my changes in a separate file, to avoid distorting the facts in other articles. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 15:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

But how can you tell whether File:Lichtenstein castle photochrom (LOC ppmsca.01193).jpg or File:Lichtenstein castle photochrom (LOC cph.3g04765).jpg accurately reflects the colors of the print? Oddly enough they are both original scans from the LOC website. If you have a concern that the images on Photochrom should be unedited, I recommend that you be bold and pick examples from the vast archive of unrestored uploads for the article. But none of this is a policy issue. ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 15:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

But people have already done that. The images were added to Photochrom before they were edited. Why should someone have to look for new images because others have changed the previous ones without considering the context in which they are used. The issue is applicable beyond this particular case.

Incidentally, File:Lichtenstein_castle_photochrom_(LOC_cph.3g04765).jpg has a colour reference chart, allowing the colours of the print to be exactly determined. A colour-correction using these reference colours would give a perfect representation of the print. The parameters used should be added to the description/summary so that they can be verified. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 17:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually that color reference chart is junk. The only thing it tells you is the degree of shift that existed at the time when that archival photograph was taken. Durova 01:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The underlying issue is that both Misplaced Pages and Commons are wikis – meaning that free content is subject to merciless editing. There isn't any way in the software to mark a page or file as unsuitable for changing, short of protecting it, which we don't do because of our wiki nature. Thus anyone can upload a new version of a picture at any time. Someone from commons has said above that they will accept a courtesy copy of the original file alongside the edited version, with a different name. That seems like an easy solution.

This is not really about commons policy, because the exact same problem of overwritten images can happen on enwiki. Our wiki system is not really intended for document preservation. This is why it's good practice to watchlist the images on articles that you edit. Commons will email you if anything on your watchlist changes, so you don't have to check your commons watchlist by hand. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

If an image in an article on photochrome is supposed to portray the natural aging of photochrome photos then to use one that has been "doctored" or "restored" does not fit what the purpose of the image is conveying and would be of no encyclopedic value for the article. If the image's purpose in the article was to portray how a photochrome would look after being restored digitally to bring back the color from aging then that would be ok. But a restored image isnt showing anything encyclopedic about photochrome if the prose is about how they age and naturally look without enhancements. If your just doing a photochrome about a particular article subject enhancing or restoring it doesnt affect its encyclopedic value, in fact it can increase the encyclopedic value of the photo in many cases. Seems kinda obvious logic to me... This isnt about OR, this is about what conveys encyclopedic content and what doesnt. That's my two cents and it seems so obvious to me that I feel like I must be missing something from the other side's point of view.Camelbinky (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

My concern is that there are many users performing these "restorations" and leaving no record of what sources these restorations are based on, nor what the exact transformations are that they have applied, and with seemingly little regard to the current use of the image. A double standard exists whereby edits to text content must be absolutely verifiable, but edits to image content can be anything you want as long as it looks nice. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

About the current use thing, the same problem happens with text. For example, even if article A says, "Additional information on this topic can be found in article B", someone else could edit article B so that it no longer covers the topic in question. I have seen this happen. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't written in formal policy but probably should be; people have been asking me to draft a policy and I've just been too busy to do it. But the best practice is this: if you want to make a major edit to an image, upload it under a new filename with detailed notes about the edit and link between the two different versions at their file hosting pages. The original version of a historic image is important in its own right; that's one of the ways images are inherently different from text. Durova 01:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't that contradict the idea that the free content on Misplaced Pages is open to editing by any editor at any time? I think wikisource would be a better place to host unchanged historic images. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

You are right about the first assumption, but I don't think Wikisource is the place to store the originals, because every page is still editable by everyone. In the case of the Library of Congress the Library is the one and only storage where to get the originals. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 11:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Free content is indeed open for editing: that's why you can modify images on commons and upload a new version of them. If they were protected, making of derivative works would not be allowed. You can't, for example, upload a comic strip featuring spider-Man even if you "draw it yourself". The requirement for do so as a new file is simply for convenience, so each project can decide on its own which one to use. MBelgrano (talk) 12:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Media editing is not a direct analogy of text editing. It's one thing to change the article about the Mona Lisa; another matter to try to improve on her smile. Durova 03:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That's true. Changing her smile would even be a falsification of art, if the manipulation would be presented as a representation of the original. But let's not diverge. The original question was whether removing the yellow caused by aging is misrepresenting the characteriscs of a photochrom print. Aging is not a specific characteric of a photochrom, it applies to practically all paper, whatever it is used for. A different print, a different amount of yellowing. Compare for instance this print at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscripts Library with this print at the Library of Congress. Same b/w original, entirely different colors. So which one to use to honestly show the characteriscs of a photochrom print? No one knows. Are we allowed to remove the yellow caused by aging? I think yes. In fact, looking at the consistency of colors over the entire Beinecke photochromcollection, makes me suspect that Beinecke applied color correction as well, so if they feel that they can do that, why not us? Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's "NPOV" != NPOV

Here I am - and after a long relationship with this site, I've finally had enough of Misplaced Pages and its archaic, insanely immature collection of vindictive and non-scholarly crowd-following "editors" who do anything and everything to turn this potential wealth of genuinely useful information into nothing more than a trough of complete bollocks. No more can I deal with various editors (see 9/11 discussion for example) who seem set on arse-licking their own Government ("No sources? Oh that's right! It's fine! It's the American Authorities! Of course they won't lie to the public! Shurely?!") and being straight-out rude to those, any offence largely unintentional, who are far more schooled in particular areas of study than the trigger-happy 12-year-old editors who seem to be putting this website to shame these days.

I've had enough.

Goodbye. 80.229.192.163 (talk) 02:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes, the old "I'm smarter than you, but I can't prove it, so bye bye because I'm better than you" argument. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:56, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe I remember an episode where Perry Mason won a case with that argument...Camelbinky (talk) 03:03, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course judges and juries are too smart to be fooled by antics like that these days. Now much cleverer techniques have been developed, like the Chewbacca defense. — Kralizec! (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Someone using the phrase "arse-licking their own Government" after having just admonished everyone else for their immaturity makes me giggle. EVula // talk // ☯ // 12:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

And nothing of value was lost. Boy, the world sure seems to have a short fuse when you annoy the piss out of everyone with your attitude. --King Öomie 15:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

well, I personally think it's sad. for an "encyclopedia anyone can edit", we sure do manage to drive off a whole lot of anyones. but c'est la vie... --Ludwigs2 23:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly cases where we drive off potentially valuable contributors, and I'm chagrined by those as well. On the other hand, it's the encyclopedia anyone can edit, but whether people will enjoy and want to continue editing when they realize the demands imposed by a collaborative, anti-authoritarian, (excessively) egalitarian environment is a different question. Reading between the lines of the original post, I'm inferring that the author desired a more positive presentation of certain minoritarian views of the 9/11 attacks. That advocates of such viewpoints find Misplaced Pages uncongenial is not necessarily a failing of this website, but more a function of its aspiration to be a serious, respectable reference work. MastCell  23:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

yeah, I agree. I'm just hankering after a perfect world (as usual...). --Ludwigs2 00:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I think those anyones don't want to keep up with the debate. They really just want their 2 cents out there, not that it is substantiated or anything. While I must agree that the us gov't would lie, I do feel the conspiricists are more manipulated than ordinary folk with common sense. I watched 'Loose Change' and it uses media commentators as experts. I enjoyed the movie though ... Alaney2k (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of people would be happier at Everything2 or Knol, but they don't realize it, and think that because they CAN put stuff into WP, it's unfair that others 'take away their hard word on a power trip' (or whatever), when they are the ones who are ignoring longstanding policy and guidelines. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

What's needed is for everyone to have a "Me-pedia" where they can tailor the articles to exactly fit their standard of NPOV. Oh, wait, we already have that... it's called The Blog. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I've no desire for "2 cents out there" or anything of the sort; I've no gain from voicing an opinion on what is quite obviously an issue that has many - not just myself - no wishing to contribute to a site that for all intents and purposes acts as no more than a sounding board for the "anyones" who gleefully mis-edit and bastardise the sound, considered results of many a scholar. As an encyclopedia I'd have at least have expected less of the trigger-happy shooting down of so-called misinformation, otherwise perfectly sound within Misplaced Pages's source referencing guidelines.

It's double-standards. Is my point concise & clear enough for it to be understood?

80.229.192.163 (talk) 01:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I won't deny that wikipedia has an unfortunate amount of 'turf' mentality, and that wandering into some topic neighborhoods is a risky/painful endeavor. However, I think the encyclopedia overall does a pretty decent job, and there's always hope for the problem areas. If what you said above is true, then I think you ought to gird your loins, get yourself a registered username, and start (slowly and gracefully) trying to turn the bad things you're seeing into good things. Misplaced Pages is just like any other neighborhood: the more people who turn their backs, the easier it is for the thugs.

just for fun: I was talking to my mother about some online thing, and she (slip-o-the-tongue, I think) ended up calling it the 'internut'. That seems to fit wikipedia to a T - maybe we should adopt the word formally? --Ludwigs2 03:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

There will be fringe theories, and no matter how many ordinary folk believe in them they wont be true. For example- the majority of Americans can believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11 or that President Obama is a practicing Muslim. Both are FALSE. In an encyclopedia (which is what Misplaced Pages IS, it is NOT a community; ONLY an encyclopedia) it doesnt matter what the majority "believes" it is what is TRUE scientifically. This isnt the place where NPOV means "everyone gets an equal say and voices their opinions"; this is where science and fact reign. We need to keep the internut ideas to blogs where they belong (or to the voices in their heads, I took a poll and 10 of the 14 voices in my head agree...).Camelbinky (talk) 01:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Since when is "scientifically true" the yardstick we use? I thought the mantra was "verifiability, not truth"?!? — Kralizec! (talk) 15:25, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yea, agreed. I think that this is what creates the problem I mentioned balow. There are certain editors who a zealously looking for a means to improve the encyclopedia, which is great as long as the emotional aspect is kept in check. More on point though, there are some editors who occasionally seem to be attempting to prove something about their knowledge by trying to rebut fringe (or occasionally mainstream!) theories. It's important to always keep in mind that we should be parroting what others say here, avoiding speaking with our own voice as much as possible.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. This thread encapsulates the usual lament of fringe POV-pushers who try and fail to inject their own version of The Truth into Misplaced Pages. Flat Earthers, Creationists, homeopaths, 9/11 Truthers, Birthers, AIDS denialists, global warming deniers, UFO believers, paranormal enthusiasts, ultranationalists, and moon landing conspiracy theorists don't like not being able to present their beliefs as accepted fact, but that doesn't mean that Misplaced Pages is doing anything wrong. Fences&Windows 15:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The only thing is that it's important not to censor out the existence and description of fringe theories from Misplaced Pages. I've see many an overzealous editor seek to completely excise any mention of many Fringe theories, which is actually worse in some ways then letting proponents add unfiltered content to Misplaced Pages.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 14:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Where a fringe theory is notable it should be described and the evidence for and against should be presented. Who supports the fringe theory should also be noted. Of course, the theory should not be presented as fact. Yaris678 (talk) 15:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:Censorship as a permit-all

A really enjoyable photo currently greets visitors to Vomiting. Despite several people explaining at great deal that it simply provides no encyclopedic value to place it there, a single editor feels it is "censorship" to remove it. I have a pretty good idea what the end result will be, and wanted to get the opinion of more editors. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 03:38, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I did my part, for what it's worth (which is basically nothing). *shrug*
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 03:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Works for me. It just needs to be more apparent to this editor that censorship isn't an end all be all excuse for adding any content. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 05:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I can't see what the fuss is about. I'd have thought a picture of some vomit or vomiting was a reasonable picture to use on an article on vomiting. And I think the consistency and colour are interesting aspects. Really I feel this is getting back to covering up the legs of tables in case they offend delicate sensibilities. Perhaps it is time to put in a facility for people to set markers for their particular abhorrences so they don't have to be offended by anything they might see hear or read on Misplaced Pages. Dmcq (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

There are illustrations and images that aid understanding or represent something iconic or specific (as in an individual person or product) and then there are illustrations and images that are purely gratuitous. People arriving at an article should find something to aid their understanding of the subject, not to satisfy a prurient interest; I imagine there must be someplace else on the internet they could go for that.

As was suggested somewhere, if a diagram illustrating peristalsis were presented, that would be helpful in understanding. An artwork representing a vomiting ritual in history is the sort of thing that may give someone perspective on ideas about health through the ages or arguably harmful social rituals. Graphic photos of vomit differentiating what it looks like after eating various things, for example, is not the purpose of illustrations in an encyclopedia. While Misplaced Pages is not censored, neither is it MTV's Jackass, indulging in vomiting here and blowing snot there just because it appeals to some demographic.

I can't tell you how often I arrive at the article of a notable person wondering what they look like, and there is no photo there because of some bizarre fear that performers would object to being identified by widely distributed publicity shots, album covers, etc. being used in an article conforming to BLP standards. (As if they'd prefer being represented by the candid man-on-the-street shots in unflattering light from bad angles that are ironically preferred here.) I've been to general articles that, far from offending delicate sensibilities, look like they would scare the shit out of somebody (an expression an article needn't illustrate, but no doubt some idiot would be willing to photograph themselves in the process of). If there is some desire to present gross-out pictures, let's not kid ourselves why we're doing it, and put it in a more specialized article, like satellite articles, perhaps of lowest common denominator. Abrazame (talk) 19:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Please confirm if File:Vomit.jpg is the image you're referring to. –Whitehorse1 19:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thats the one. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 23:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I was writing about the concept in general (as the concept we're asked to discuss by the thread title is general) and had not actually seen the image when I wrote the above. I have now seen the image and still can't see how a shot of vomit on a sidewalk serves the article. What does this image inform the reader about vomit? Please confirm that you asked me to look at the vomit photo because you feel it's relevant to the concept we're discussing, and not for the gross-out angle to which I was objecting in the first place, because I can't see the relevancy. I used to live in a major city, spent a lot of time out and about in the evening, and have seen a lot of vomit on the sidewalk. Abrazame (talk) 20:21, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I will not confirm I asked you to do either. Because, in fact, my request for clarification was directed to the originating poster. That's why it was indented with a single colon, placing it a single level below the parent comment in the thread. The originating poster sought the opinion of more editors. As it was not possible to ascertain what image is the foundation of this discussion from a brief look, I requested clarification from that person. I prefer to find out the facts of a matter before giving my opinion on the matter. –Whitehorse1 20:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm all for adding topical images to articles, and if there's anyone that supports WP:NOTCENSORED then I'm decidedly in that group. I just don't understand how this is a meaningful picture for the article. Sure, it's (supposedly) a picture of vomit on a sidewalk, but so what? It's inclusion just seems... Abrazame said puerile above, which seems apt.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 21:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The whole NOTCENSORED idea is not a get out of jail free card to place whichever image one wishes onto articles. If the image served any purpose (at the least having discussion surround it in the article), I'd not object to its removal. However, the censored argument aside, is there any reasonable argument for keeping it in the article? I see this as building consensus like any other image thats added to any article. The only case here, is that the image has a gross-out factor, and so an editor is using WP:NOTCENSORED as a trump card against the consensus of removal. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 23:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think either gross out or not censored should be used as reasons. The major consideration should be whether it is a useful illustration for the article. If people want to find a drawing instead of a picture I suppose it could be more useful if it gives the same information by the reasoning that less people with delicate sensibilities are put off but the major consideration is improving the information content of the encyclopaedia. Dmcq (talk) 10:47, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The presentation of the vomitus is a good diagnostic aid, whether it is yellow, red, bits of black, green or whatever and how watery it is and whether there is food in it. It depends how well the article is going to be, I guess a diagram of the various types could do the job. Dmcq (talk) 12:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I find that a description could serve just as well. "The consumption of W causes X reaction with Y enzyme, and vomit expelled following its ingestion will appear more Z".

However, a gallery of yak hardly provides any insight, or information. Only permission for people to upload the photograph of their drunk friend puking in the grass. A diagram illustrating the various pressures and body/CNS maneuvers that take place preceding vomiting would be useful. A picture of it on the sidewalk would not. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 23:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

"Diagnostic aid"? Misplaced Pages isn't in the habit of providing medical advice, especially for self-diagnosis. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the point here is not even whether we do or should present medical advice for self-diagnosis (something I thoroughly agree it would be potentially disastrous to attempt or claim to do, as error or vandalism could potentially result in illness, death, and/or legal action) but that there is no way to determine whether the diagnosis that would be claimed or implied by any photo would be citable. Even if doctors or hospitals actually made an official document noting the connection between an official medical diagnosis and the sort of symptom (type of vomit) the patient produced (and photographed)—and such specific and legible written documentation is not general practice—do I understand the implication of User:Dmcq's comment to be that we would reference to such a personal medical record document of the photographer? One doesn't work backward from "thus-and-such sort of vomit is indicative of X" to searching for or creating photographs of vomit that has this appearance and presume to post it as an indicator of such.

Incidentally, a week goes by and Special:Contributions/Whitehorse1 doesn't indicate why he requested on New Year's Eve that someone look at a particular shot of vomit, or indicate why the answer makes a difference to his contribution to this discussion. Ideally, this discussion isn't for individuals to privately determine something or other within themselves, but to contribute to the understandings of other editors here in the interest of refining or altering a policy point in general or resolving a misuse or abuse in particular. Abrazame (talk) 00:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Abrazame, this is the second false allegation you've decided to throw in here. Just like last time, I have made no request you or anybody else look at anything. And, just like last time, contrary to your claim I have indicated why an answer to my question would help me contribute an opinion to the discussion.

The contributions page you decided to link shows I haven't edited *at all* since New Year's Eve/Day. There really is no need for me to justify myself, but since you've brought it up ... reduced participation around Christmas and New Year is perfectly ordinary. I contribute to Misplaced Pages what I can, when I can. We are all volunteers here, and there is no shame in spending more time with friends and family.

There's no need for me to explain why I asked the question above, not least because you apparently ignored the explanation the first time. Again though since you've brought it up: As I said above: "...my request for clarification was directed to the originating poster ... a single level below the parent comment in the thread ... As it was not possible to ascertain what image is the foundation of this discussion from a brief look, I requested clarification...". The originating poster referred to a specific image without explicitly identifying it. They stated different people had commented that it lacked encyclopedic value, though this view was not unananimous, and "wanted to get the opinion of more editors". Unsurprisingly, before commenting on an image's encyclopedic value myself, I wanted to find out what was depicted in that image.

The originating poster didn't describe or identify the image, so I looked at the article. The only picture visible was a 14th century illustration; the page history suggested that wasn't the image concerned. It was unclear if the file named in my earlier comment was the image the OP meant either. That insertion of that image was being reverted at the time, but the talkpage seemed to have discussions about other, multiple, images: "he image available, especially the first, is a gratuitous depiction of graphic vomiting". The discussion went on to show 'the picture' had been nominated for deletion. This left it unclear whether the recently-reverted addition was the image concerned, given a) at least two images were being discussed there, b) the discussion there didn't describe both images, only one which didn't match the one being removed, and c) the relevant image may've been deleted by then, perhaps replaced by a different image at the same filename. So, to understand what was being discussed here I asked the OP, which you can see in the comment thread above; they answered the question. –Whitehorse1 23:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

←Thanks Floydian, for clarifying the image concerned. Hmm. Whether it has a place in the article seems arguable. By contrast, another image discussed on the talkpage depicting someone on a toilet vomiting copiously is clearly inappropriate. This image, of vomitus, shows viscosity/consistency, possible hue, potential content, potential volume, etc. It depicts something people are generally familiar with, but then so does the "closed human mouth" image in Mouth. A difference is that's unlikely to be seen as "icky" or unpleasant. The suggestions in the article's edit summaries of using drawings of vomitus instead seem weak. Either we should depict it (once), or not. The only use for diagrams I can think of would be those of the digestive system, or maybe a line diagram of the path of it should the article cover such physics aspects. The C14th illus. adds little in my view. I don't think the article rises or falls on its inclusion of the image. It's plausible a middle school or high school student might wonder why vomit always seems to include carrot, even when they haven't eaten any. An explanation of digestive enzymes, stomach acids and the like along with an image of vomitus could help serve that educational role. It's of some relevance that the article's Start-class, too. It will be easier to evaluate images as editors further develop the article's content. –Whitehorse1 23:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Signpost Policy Report

{{rfctag|policy}} Naming conventions, Verifiability, Neutral point of view, No original research, What Misplaced Pages is not: click on any of these links to give us your take on one or more content policy pages, and a summary of the comments will appear in one of the upcoming Policy Reports in the Signpost. If it helps, monthly changes to these pages are available at WP:Update/1/Content policy changes, July 2009 to December 2009. All responses are welcome. - Dank (push to talk) 15:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Also Attack page. - Dank (push to talk) 00:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

QR Codes as illustrations (2D barcodes)

I noticed a QR Code, a type of 2-dimensional barcode, used to illustrate the article Midi Onodera, and wondered if it made sense. QR Codes are widespread in Japan, and probably other places, as a way to present information, such as web addresses, to camera phones. For instance, a store or park can put up a sign with a QR Code, and customers or visitors can snap the image to visit the website from their phones. Many online encoders and decoders are available, such as zxing encoder and zxing decoder.

The article Midi Onodera is about a Canadian artist. As her portrait in an Infobox template, an editor added the QR Code for her website address, an image uploaded to Commons.

I searched Commons for other QR Codes. My search may not have caught them all, and I left out articles about barcode technology itself. (Search terms: "QR Code", "QRCode" and "Qr-code".) I found only one other Misplaced Pages article using a QR Code image:

• Assaí, Portuguese Misplaced Pages. The QR Code is below the Infobox in this case.

So, some questions:

1. Do the QR Codes add useful information to articles? My answer would be "no", since the web address can already go in the Infobox. Generally I think Misplaced Pages should include more information rather than less, but I do not see how QR Codes are useful on a web page, which already has clickable links. Perhaps every Misplaced Pages page should have QR codes in its "printable version", but that is a larger issue.

2.But what if the artist created the barcode as a self-portrait? Then the article should state that, and the image would be a great addition if licensed free.

3. If the QR Code is OK, does it belong as the portrait in the Infobox template? My answer would be, "it depends."

4. Is QR Code a free format? I get bored reading legalese, but here are previous discussions I found:

• http://commons.wikimedia.org/Commons_talk:Licensing/Archive_18#Barcode_images
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Archive_55#A_proposal_for_the_use_of_2D_barcodes_in_museum

--Colfer2 (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I would generally agree with you that we shouldn't put QR codes in articles right now. It is an interesting feature, but though. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Who is coming up with category names?

Ok, I have a big beef with whoever came up with the category names of "Settlements on Hudson River" and "Settlements in X County" (in regards to New York counties). Cities, towns, villages, hamlets, and CDP's are all being thrown into these broad categories. First off towns in NY are large and have many "settlements" (in NY we call them hamlets) and towns cant really be called a "settlement" themselves. CDP's arent "settlements" either, and also may encompass two or more hamlets (in one case I know of a CDP that has three hamlets mentioned in the name of the CDP itself). The only thing in NY that can truly be called a "settlement" is a hamlet. If further breakdown is needed instead of cities, towns, and villages being in the "X County" category itself then I suggest using "Cities in X County" and "Towns in X County" and "Villages in X County" etc etc so the same types are with each other, with doing the same thing breaking up the "Settlements on the Hudson River" category. The term "settlements" implies that these places are something they clearly not and shouldnt be a word used for modern-day incorporated places. Not all geographic/political places are the same and a categorization scheme that may work in other parts of the US or world may not work in NY or other states (like in New England, Michigan, or Wisconsin where towns cant be called "settlements" and are different than "civil townships" of other states). I really wish there'd be more leeway in allowing Wikiprojects to cover their own turf and allow them to come up with things themselves instead of "conforming" to some larger group-think about how things should be organized.Camelbinky (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Consistency is ...

After poking around a little, our usage of "settlement" seems to come from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cities and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (settlements) and the primary human-habitation infobox {{Infobox settlement}}. You'd best bring it up in one of those places first, if you want to change things.

Consistency is not necessarily equal to group-think. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

In the discipline of geography as in WP (Human settlement), 'settlement' is the collective term applied to any place where people live, from hamlet to major city or larger. Hmains (talk) 22:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Well thats nice about the discipline of geography, however in NY we dont use it in that manner and I'd appreciate it if people didnt mess with categories they have no intention of working on the articles themselve. The most relevant Wikiproject to a topic should have primary responsibility for wording so that it is correct to that topic. For the articles I am worried about and the categories I have mentioned that would be the Wikiproject NY and daughter wikiprojects such as wikiprojects capital district, syracuse, hudson valley, and new york city. Using a word like settlements gives the wrong impression; NO ONE is going to call the city of New York a SETTLEMENT; it isnt correct and you'd get laughed at, and I took quite a bit of urban planning courses in college (at least 7 including the courses I had to take to become CADD certified) and I dont remember once hearing that a settlement is anything from a hamlet to a major city. In the anthropology courses I took settlements referred to rural fringe hamlets on a frontier.Camelbinky (talk) 02:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

New york is a fairly classic river estuary settlement. Certianly run across london being described as a settlement and it would be rather odd for a single city on the planet to somehow have something special about it to escape that designation.©Geni 21:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

the difficulty is that each state in the US uses the terms differently, and each country in the world has its own terminology. a reader or editor here may know intuitively the one for his own area, but is not likely to know everywhere else. If they are to find things in categories, the terminology needs to be universal. There have been a good number of long lame disputes about whether to call some place a town or village or whatever, and the fewer reasons we have for them the better. We're just a general encyclopedia, not the Board of Geographical Names. We want to be a good ready-reference, but not are not aiming at being a definitive authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)

Agreed, settlement seems to cover all cases around the world. WE can't define classes of things using the terms used in one region of one country. The definition of a city in the USA, UK and Spain (to take just three examples) is quite different, likewise for town, village, township, parish, townland, municipality, metropolis, conurbation, hamlet, community, commune, pueblo, etc. And definitions vary in different parts of all of those countries. We are dealing with over two hundred countries/nations/states on Misplaced Pages, all them have settlements.Jezhotwells (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is, though, that real people (as opposed to WP editors) don't recognize "settlement" as referring to towns and cities. I remember the days when I was a real person using WP, and having difficulty finding a category of cities in some country because it was hidden away under "Settlements in ...". I would suggest changing the "Settlements..." categories to "Towns and villages...". It might not be 100% accurate (some settlements are not even villages), but it would be much more helpful to the ordinary reader.--Kotniski (talk) 08:06, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

In all honesty, I'm not sure what the problem is here, but I have a guess. Maybe those opposed to the term settlement are interpreting the word in some way they don't make explicit. To me settlement is a fairly generic term that would cover all of these cities, towns, and other sorts of communities. Do Kotniski's "real people", for example, use a more specific definition of settlement that would make the categorization misleading in some way? Ntsimp (talk) 19:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I missed Camelbinky's earlier "rural fringe hamlets on a frontier." OK, so I guessed right, but it was made explicit. Looks like it was recognized a long time ago that Misplaced Pages needs some unifying term, and settlement was chosen. I'm fine with it, but anyone is welcome to propose a different word. But I think it has to be the same consistent term throughout the project. Ntsimp (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a lot of hulaballoo over semantics. "Settlement" was chosen as a neutral term used to encompass disparate entities such as town, city, hamlet, village, and so on. An alternative could be "Populated Place" but settlement works just as well. It is unfortunate that some folks working on articles in New York may feel this is not an elegant solution for their situation, but consistency across categories of this nature are pretty important if they are to remain useful tools to the reader and the editor. Shereth 19:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

They're not useful if they describe perfectly everyday things with a quite un-everyday name. People just don't read "Settlements in England" and expect to find London and Manchester there. At least, they don't if they're like me. What do you think of my "Towns and villages in..." idea?--Kotniski (talk) 20:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

For my part, I would expect to find London and Manchester under Settlements in England but not under Towns and villages in England. London and Manchester are cities (and thus settlements) and not towns or villages. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Echoing the previous statement for the most part. That settlement = small is a point of view that is held by some, and I suppose to an extent any word we choose will have different connotations for different people. The way I see it is that settlement = place where people have settled, and thus city, town, village and hamlet are all a subset of "settlement". Each type of settlement therein has a different definition depending on jurisdiction and thus cannot be applied universally; to my knowledge, "settlement" is not used as a legal definition for a populated place and safer to apply in a universal fashion. Shereth 20:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I still don't believe that ordinary readers (and it will be quite ordinary people - not specialists - who are looking for these articles) understand the word "settlement" in the way you want them to. I can't prove it, but I suspect that those who come here saying they have such an understanding have it only because of the strong influence of their Misplaced Pages experience. (Oh, and America is also a place where people have settled.)--Kotniski (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth, our own article on City states "A city is a relatively large and permanent settlement ..."; Town, Village and Hamlet all use similar language describing each as a settlement. Hence, I believe the term "settlement" was rightly chosen as the simplest and most objective term for the purposes of categorizing. Shereth 21:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't think either viewpoint here is compelling. I'm not exactly sure why, but "Settlement" does seem... odd. "Populated place" seems, to me, to be much more representative. I wouldn't bother taking the time to change either to the other though, outside of remaining consistent.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 05:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, America and the Earth are populated places. Why not simply "Towns and villages...", which all readers will immediately get? (In fact, in many cases it probably isn't necessary to have such a category at all; we could go directly to a "Towns..." category and a "Villages..." category (and "Cities..." if applicable), without forcing readers through an extra level of navigation.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Because "town" and "village" are particular classes of municipality in many states in the U.S. and so would be ambiguous if used as generic terms. postdlf (talk) 08:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

FYI: the United States Board of Geographic Names uses "Populated Place". I'm almost positive that "everyone else" follows suit, but I honestly can't remember who "everyone else" is off the top of my head (I used to know, dammit... frustrating).
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 13:09, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The USGS in general uses the term, as well, which was why I suggested it as a possible alternative. Personally I find it a little inelegant compared to "settlement" but if that term is causing so much consternation, I would be ok with that as an alternative. Shereth 14:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

AFAIC "populated places" has all the same disadvantages as "settlements" (ordinary readers won't realize that it means something very familiar). If we can't say something like "Towns and villages" because of the trans-Atlantic divide, then it looks like we're stuck with settlements, but I'd like to see some of these categories eliminated from the hierarchy as I suggested above.--Kotniski (talk) 14:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

What do other gazetteers use? The USGS usage seems to dominate in US sources, but elsewhere there may be more variety.LeadSongDog come howl 15:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any merit in eliminating settlement categories as parents for all classes of settlements, if that's what is meant by "some of these categories eliminated from the hierarchy." In the U.S., each state has municipalities (which are often divided into two or more classes, such as "cities" or "villages", which often reflect substantive differences in local government), incorporated communities, census-designated places, neighborhoods...and there are categories for former settlements, categories for fictional settlements, categories for the histories of settlements... All of this needs to be grouped together based on the shared underlying topic. I don't think that's reasonably debatable. So it's just a question of what the best generic term is to use. I used to support "community," but that was deprecated because many thought it was ambiguous as to whether it meant a geographic, brick and mortar community (i.e., a settlement) or a cultural community (i.e., Twilight fandom). postdlf (talk) 16:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

On a related note, some states have "settlements by county" categories. Some have "by county" categories for each type of settlement, such as cities, CDPs, etc. Some have no county subdivisions, in which case the settlement articles, regardless of type, are just placed directly in the county categories (this is the system set up when categories were first introduced). The category system works best when it presents multiple levels of navigation and grouping, rather than intersecting facts more and more into narrower and narrower categories. So I believe the best system would be to keep the type of settlement categorized only at the state level, and then settlements broadly categorized at the county level (or maybe municipalities and unincorporated communities by county, but no more finely drawn than that). So that way readers could browse either by type or by county, rather than forcing them to browse by type and county at the same time. This is a good principle generally in categorization; preserving different levels of generality rather than merging all into the very specific. This results in articles being directly linked to more articles by a variety of shared characteristics rather than only to those articles that share multiple characteristics. postdlf (talk) 16:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

• I would rather see "Populated place" because to me a "settlement" means a place where people live that is surrounded by uninhabited land. For example, I really don't see Oak Park, Illinois as a settlement, since it abuts other populated places on all sides, and its street grid is a continuation of its neighbors. Abductive (reasoning) 20:04, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what it means to any individual editor. Given that all Misplaced Pages content should follow reliable secondary sources, "settlement", as defined in Human settlement and used in city, town, village and hamlet (place), is the correct term to use. It should be preferred over "populated place", which has a specific legal meaning in the US only. Any categories that editors feel are ambiguous can have a note added to explain (e.g. "The definition of settlement includes all cities, towns, villages and hamlets" in Category:Settlements on the Hudson River). OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

humm... first, I'm not aware of any actual "legal meaning" to the term "populated place". Would you care to elaborate on that? Second, I'm almost positive that there are European and Canadian sources that also use the term "populated place". As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certain that the term originated in Canada.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 13:24, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I read USGS as having some kind of legal standing: Populated place. I don't really know how this American "incorporated town" thing works. In the rest of the world people just live places. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 21:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You might be interested in Municipal corporation. As far as the USGS and the term "populated place" is concerned, it is one of the Feature Classes used in the GNIS and is a defined term, but it's merely a definition and does not have any legal standing . Shereth 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The American (although not the British) term would be municipalities. Note that several states recognize "unincorporated municipalities" and I believe NY is one of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:37, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

But ALL of these things are also settlements, which is why the categories, articles and lists all use the term. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 21:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that. I suspect that the original choice of "settlement" over "populated place" is idiosyncratic to En.Misplaced Pages. Perhaps one could argue that it is better to use fewer syllables. I really don't care, but I would back a change if enough people felt it was important. Abductive (reasoning) 22:00, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

For the most part "municipality" is confined to incorporated places, and requires a local governing body; not every settlement in the US is a municipality. Shereth 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Question regarding disambig pages

Do we have a policy regarding tagging disambiguation pages with projects other than the disambiguation project? If so, where can I find it? Purplebackpack89 (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Disambiguation will know. Fences&Windows 21:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

(Examples are always preferred, for clarity in questions).

Talkpage wikiproject banners? Add anything especially relevant. Eg Eid could hypothetically have a WP:WikiProject Arab world banner added to its talkpage, I think.

However, mass-additions should probably be discussed somewhere first, if you think they may prove divisive. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I have a feeling this is related to a content dispute that Purplebackpack was involved in, which I skimmed over earlier on ANI. Killiondude (talk) 08:11, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Purplebackpack is upset because the dab page Lincoln is tagged as part of the the Lincolnshire WikiProject, which he perceives as encouraging bias in the ongoing discussion at Talk:Lincoln about whether the title should redirect to Abraham Lincoln. Propaniac (talk) 16:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

• WikiProjects are generally free to set their scope as they wish. –xeno 20:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, marked as guideline, accepts as a regular procedure (even if not all projects do it) to include the "disambig" type MBelgrano (talk) 12:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Each project can decide whether they want to tag disambiguation pages. Some do, some don't. There is no policy issue about it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the question wasn't if it was mandatory, but if it was allowed (see the related discussion for bigger context). The answer was yes, it is allowed, projects that want to do so can do without problem. Other projects may decide not to do so, that's up to them (they can even decide to skip the article tagging completely, if desired) MBelgrano (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Abuse Response Project

The volunteers at WP:ABUSE are requesting feedback from the community on the first proposal of our 2009 revamping project. This is a proposed guideline that outlines the rationale, purpose, and scope of the project and defines some parameters for its functionality. We invite all to participate on the talk page. I look forward to seeing some great constructive input. Thanks!   Thorncrag  08:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe this project has the potential to reduce long term serious abuse on Misplaced Pages if it is operated properly. However, abuse response cannot function without the input of the community. It is simply impossible due to the nature of the work done there. Once again, I am imploring the community to at least respond to the proposals that have been made. It doesn't matter what you think of abuse response, but please give your input. Netalarmhappy holidays! 03:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Based on what little I have seen of the project, it could really use some adult supervision. This is not meant as an insult to those involved, but there seems to be a certain mindset which suggests to me that there is an overabundance of teenage males and a lack of moderating influences. The echo-chamber effect may lead the project to repeat such mistakes as contacting the FBI about Misplaced Pages vandalism. The language used in the proposals is somewhat suggestive of television depictions of police procedure, when it really ought to be as dispassionate as possible. Seeing vandals as the enemy only sets up a win-lose paradigm which can never be constructive. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I've never seen WP:ABUSE prior to a brief look just now, and I've got to say that I generally agree with Delicious carbuncle take on this.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 00:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the above comments may be premature (although for some other related projects the point is valid). The "Who is contacted" section makes it clear that only the ISP (or university or similar) is to be contacted (the WHOIS contact). I have added a positive comment here and invite anyone else to join in (I think that was the intention). Johnuniq (talk) 01:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

@Delicious, I definitely take your concerns very seriously, we have been following the concerns regarding that situation. One of the primary motivations for developing a single guideline for the project was to address those concerns that you have raised. Without taking a position on that issue, I can say that we are trying to take steps to outline what should be done, and perhaps more importantly, what should NOT be done. I think that you might agree with several of the steps we have taken, such as requiring using an approved email--which, while it may not be perfect, is better than what I have seen in the past, and that these steps are in the right direction.   Thorncrag  01:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the "Who is contacted section" at Misplaced Pages:Abuse_response/2009_Revamp/Proposal_1#What_Abuse_Response_is_not for the most part; parents should absolutely never be contacted directly, and ditto for law enforcement in most situations. For that matter, I say even AN/I is the wrong place; admins are just Wikipedians with a few extra buttons. Contacting the government is a job for the foundation, and nothing less than the foundation. There should be clear instructions provided for how to bring threats of violence and WP:Threats of suicide to the attention of the foundation in the volunteer manual. Since the Better Business Bureau is no more than a neutral mediator who passes on complaints to the ROs, my opinion slightly differs with that, although if that's ever done, then it should only be done as a last resort. I also think five blocks is a little to long to wait; perhaps three or four would be better. Just my two cents. PCHS-NJROTC 17:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to say, I've read through this, and agree 110% with Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) – for once. Self-appointed "co-ordinators" alongside "listed investigators" etc. doesn't inspire confidence that this project is quite as professional as it frequently professes (pun fully intended) to be. ╟─TreasuryTag►presiding officer─╢ 17:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to make it clear that the "self appointment as coordinators" was never intended to give anyone any leverage over other participants in the project. Please understand that at the time this revamp was started, there were very few (1~2) people that had processed anything in months. Furthermore, questions being asked, reports, and other issues that needed attention were not addressed by those that were active. Fearing that potential participants and reporters were not joining because of a lack of response, the coordinator label was created in case someone had any questions about the project. However, this is issue should be addressed if consensus allows this self nomination form to be used. Using that form, everyone would have input on the selection of investigators and such. Thanks for your input! Netalarmwelcome to 2010! 20:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not read the proposal the way Delecious Carbuncle and Ohm's Law do, but I must admit to being male and a few months shy of 18, which apparently places me in an implicitly less effective user group. My key concern is that the current proposal is somewhat overcomplicated and could result in less transparency, which I believe may contribute to Delicious Carbuncle and Ohm's Law's concerns. I have commented to this effect, and I would appreciate comments with your thoughts on the matter at the proposal. The Real Jean-Luc /_Contribs 05:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Footnotes and use of small tags around ref tags

I saw a while ago that Miesianiacal (talk · contribs) apparently has his own preferred citation formatting style, where he wraps <ref> tags with <small> tags, to produce uniform line spacing. See this example article. I happen to applaud the desired goal of uniform line spacing, but I don't like this way of doing it as the numbers are barely readable. But more importantly, this method is not mentioned in Misplaced Pages:Footnotes as an acceptable style variation. We discussed it a while ago, and he said that the issue in the past has always dissipated without resolution, and I left it. But having bumped into it again at another article, I thought I'd carry through my own suggestion of a discussion on VP this time. I honestly don't think it is too creepy to expect a practice like this to either be explicitly allowed or disallowed in our style guidance, and therefore there should be a proper consensus determined on it either way. What do others think? Ideally there should be a way of having normal size numbers and uniform spacing, but I have no clue where to even raise that request, so suggestions on a postcard for that too. MickMacNee (talk) 00:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

There are three questions here.

1. Is this a reasonable method of dealing with footnotes?
2. What do we do about it if it isn't?
3. Does it matter that WP:FOOTNOTES doesn't explicitly endorse it?

I can answer #3 with a firm "No, it doesn't matter". We can't expect WP:FOOTNOTES to list every possible format for inline citation; there isn't room in a guideline of manageable length (for one thing, some misguided genius is going to invent a way of doing sidenotes). This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of guidelines.

On #2: discussion should prevail; if you are alone in disliking the format, you should consider tolerating it. If you are not, the nays should really be listened to. In an ideal wiki environment, people who liked it would use it, people who disliked it would remove it when they came across it by chance, and in the end, the more popular variant would prevail, in a form of online Darwinism.

Technical fixes should be discussed at WP:VPT and by WP:BUGS.

On #1, I would not choose them; but I find them quite readable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Pmanderson's general outline above. Line spacing doesn't bother me personally, but I see it as a legitimate concern. However, I don't see this as a good way to deal with the issue, at all. First, it's obviously a kludge, and the efficacy of it will vary significantly from browser to browser and even from monitor to monitor (I happen to have an LCD and a CRT, both with differing resolutions, and bringing up the same page on either monitor gives vastly different results). So, the solution doesn't actually resolve the issue which it is attempting to address. Second, the added wikicode is a bit ridiculous, and more importantly it really gets in the way. We should discuss a proper means means of implementing consistent line spacing, but in the mean time this workaround should be removed.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Admittedly, I picked up this trick from someone else on Misplaced Pages; I can't remember where, now. Some points from my observation:

• Since employing it to ensure consistent line spacing, very few people have complained about it, and none with strong objections. This seems to translate into a form of consensus via silence. I can think of only one example where a couple of people were inistant that the <small> tags not be used, and I bowed to consensus at that page.
• As MickMacNee already noted, the topic has been raised before (a number of times, in my experience), but another resolution to the issue of inline tag sizes is ever reached; debate fizzles off as people lose interest. My guess (and only a guess) is that this is because the matter is so wide ranging - thus, involving so many issues and so many people - it's perceived as being too immense to fix except locally.

That said, if we don't want to go with "online Darwinianism" that I've essentially been adhering to so far (but think is rather haphazard), the two possible routes that PMAnderson put forward (one of which - WP:BUGS - I've never seen before) beg the question: is the appearance of inline citiations a matter related to MediaWiki software or not? The answer to that question should guide us towards the next step. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, with respect to "Silence", I'd never personally seen this. I think that I'm fairly well traveled around Misplaced Pages now, so I'm fairly confident in saying that this practice is not widespread enough, nor has it been advertised enough, to make a claim to consensus by silence yet. I'm not a huge proponent of consistency either, but with something like this, if you're getting pushback at all then it's probably best to stop and start a wider discussion (like this one). The fact that you've bowed to local consensus against doing this on some places is good, but continuing to use it where no one actively objects appears sneaky.

As for an ultimate solution here, I'll point out the fact that other language versions of Misplaced Pages use different reference formatting. I'm not positive where the change exactly needs to be made, but I'm all but certain that it could be made. Again, I personally would support a change which would actually solve the problem that you've been trying to work around.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you remember which wikis? If there are no more comments here soon, I think I will put this to an Rfc before it drops off the radar again, and offer up some actual proposals on it. MickMacNee (talk) 19:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Which other Misplaced Pages's use different reference formatting? I know that the French and German ones do, off hand. It's not wildly different, but it's different. Note also that we're talking about m:Extension:Cite/Cite.php here, not the core MediaWiki software.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 00:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

This is where {{reflist}} and {{refbegin}} will help. Since they use classes, any registered editor can customize the font size and columns though their CSS. I wish we could customze the view with a gadget, but that isn't possible. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  20:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to say two things: One, the way they look is out of proportion to me. This is opinion. The second is that this should be done with CSS, not with the use of html tags which means something else entirely. --Izno (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Password recovery from blocked IP

Apologies if this is a silly newbie question that's been dealt with before. I searched and couldn't find anything relevant.

Having a mental blank this morning, I couldn't remember my wikipedia password, so I clicked on the friendly "E-mail new password" button on the login screen. Imagine my surprise to be presented with an error message: "Your IP address is blocked from editing, and so is not allowed to use the password recovery function to prevent abuse." I already knew that this IP address was blocked (it's on a university campus, shared by many people); I registered an account for the very purpose of being able to use wikipedia from my work computer. I thought the purpose of blocking an IP address was to bar those people who don't wish to sign in to an account, not those who do.

Surely there is some good reason for this policy (besides teaching us the meaning of irony). Can someone enlighten me? (And if there is a clear and concise reason, it would be a fine idea to display it as part of the error message.) Jowa fan (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps they think that other (bad) people use your computer, then they might also gain access to your e-mail account and steal your password? Doesn't seem very likely to me, I admit.--Kotniski (talk) 10:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

If it were not prevented, anyone at that IP (i.e. the entire campus) would be able to request your password and steal your account. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Only if they hacked his e-mail account.--Kotniski (talk) 13:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The email new password function sends an email to whatever username you put in the box. This can hence be used to spam users that you don't like. For that reason blocked accounts are not allowed to use the email password function (since historically it has been used to throw emails at the people who blocked them, etc.) Dragons flight (talk) 13:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh right, I see. But is this a big enough problem to outweigh the problem described here? (Presumably the number of password requests for an account could be limited to a reasonable number per time period, to keep the potential spam burden insignificant.) Well, I guess this would be better discussed at WP:VPT or bugzilla, if anyone wants to press it.--Kotniski (talk) 13:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, this does make sense. But with modern email software, it shouldn't be a huge problem: most email readers can now set up filters, so unwanted password recovery emails can be automatically deleted. Jowa fan (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Jowa, I put in your username and clicked the button, so you should be getting a new password emailed to you. Problem solved. Dragons flight (talk) 13:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Very thoughtful. But my mental blank was only temporary, as you can tell from the fact that I managed to log in and post here ;-) Jowa fan (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Interesting problem. I guess having some requests throttled rather than locked might solve the problem an I wonder if there is some use in having the facility to throttle different types of requests for users or IPs. It is impressive how inventive vandals can be. Dmcq (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Or perhaps requiring you to input your email address and username in order to get a password-reminder (vandals presumably wouldn't know your address)... ╟─TreasuryTag►Captain-Regent─╢ 22:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Drive-by commenting.

I'd like to suggest a guideline, if I may, which I feel might make things run a little smoother. I've noticed lately that a lot of editors, logged in or anonymous, have developed a nasty habit of what I call 'Drive-by commenting', which, so far as I can see, is not in keeping with the project's ethos, and also possibly in violation of other policies such as WP:SOFIXIT and WP:BOLD. It comes in a variety of forms, none of which are particularly helpful:

1. 'Hit and Run' - This is where an editor suggests or demands that some change is made to an article, and then disappears. This is a problem because it means that editors who attempt to make the requested modifications are unable to ask for further details and receive no feedback on the edits they have made. This can be particularly annoying if the editor appears to have some experience with the topic at hand, is upset at it not being mentioned in the article, but then leave editors with no experience to attempt to make the additions, when they could benefit from their expertise or at least suggestions for sources to refer to. For an example of this, see Talk:International Space Station/Archive 8#The ISS Communications Systems.
2. 'Endless Listing' - This is where a reviewer, for instance at WP:PR, WP:GAN or WP:FAC spends a huge amount of time listing a number of edits that should be made to the article, but makes no effort to make those edits themselves. Often, the lists are extensive and presumably took a long time to create, and detail solutions the reviewer thinks should be implemented. The time spent listing these faults could be much better spent correcting those faults, instead of doing the work twice, and would save time and stress for all concerned. For an example of this, see Misplaced Pages:Peer review/International Space Station/archive2.
3. 'No Help Here' - The third version of this, and to my mind the most distressing, is again one that is rife at review pages, with WP:FAC in particular suffering greatly from this. In this case, a reviewer demands that something major is done which the reviewer and the editor are unable to do, often due to time and lack of experience respectively, but then does not offer any advice as to how it could be carried out or where to look for help. This is a particular issue for copyedits at the moment given the useless nature of the formal copyedit request process at present, and often leads to failed nominations, and a rise in general wikistress, particularly as it is almost impossible for a lead editor to copyedit their own text. For a heated example of this, see the second oppose at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/International Space Station/archive4.

As you can see from the examples, I've had many a run-in with comments of this nature, and would like to suggest a guideline that goes something like this:

WP:DRIVEBY

1. If you make a request on an article talk page, stay and help out. Editors will benefit from your assistance, whether through your personal expertise or feedback on their edits, which will help the articles to improve.
2. When reviewing articles, if you see a problem that is easily fixed, please fix it. Placing issues in lengthy lists leads to extra work for everybody, and can slow down needed article improvements.
3. When reviewing articles, if you see a need for a major edit, for instance a copyedit, either offer to assist or suggest a solution to the editors of the page. Don't just demand the improvement and then watch as involved editors who may not be able to carry out your request rush around in a blizzard of panic as their nomination fails before their eyes. It leads to increased stress for everyone, and seldom leads to article improvements.

I'd also suggest that comments that are not followed up in this manner can be safely ignored by editors, unless of course the work required is minimal and clear, or a major error is pointed out.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear back from others about this, whether to hear other editors' experiences or suggestions and comments on my proposal. Let me hear what you think! Thanks, Colds7ream (talk) 19:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

So if you think an article needs a copyedit and you can't do it yourself for whatever reason, you should just ... do nothing? I really don't see how that's an improvement over the current situation. As you noted, we really have no formal system, so any suggestion would just be "ask someone." And simply ignoring comments about improvement just because the editor didn't stick around to discuss doesn't really improve the project. If you agree with the comments and you feel like fixing it, fix it. Otherwise don't. People shouldn't ignore useful suggestions just because the person making the suggestion didn't watchlist the talk page. If you have a question, and the person hasn't replied on the talk page, ask on their user talk page. Mr.Z-man 20:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The idea being is that it's not improving the article and is being done without any talk or reason given. If the changes or questions raised are legitimate and discussed, then they should be addressed regardless of the track record of someone giving them. #2 of the list is rather inexcusable and if you're feeling bold you might just want to call them out or leave specific comments a few select places. #3, ridiculous disruption like that might be a WP:WQA if you have a few co-editors to file with to demonstrate your concern with even a short statement. There's ANI, but unless the action is recent and has evidence of immediate continuation any sanctions considered punitive sanctions instead of preventative. Could get some kind of "official" warning though. Gather some diffs of the worst of the worst, especially edits specifically seeming to sabotage a FAC. Have warnings and comments, polite requests and the like been left for the user(s) along the way? Have any 'constructive' edits of theirs been reverted as well? Naturally, this gets important quickly. Take your pick I suppose, WQA, AIV or ANI on a lenghy run of edits... just make sure to only post to one of them and if not appropriate they should get the proper direction. If this were a normal article I'd say try to dig up the more casual disruption process, but I'd semi-IAR on matters such as a FAC that should have had a fair evaluation some time ago.♪ daTheisen(talk) 20:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Telling people not to do it is one thing, as it can be annoying, but telling people to ignore potentially useful comments just because of the behavior of the commenter is the type of rule that's just asking to be ignored. Though from the comments here, suggesting people be brought to ANI and potentially sanctioned for this behavior, I'm starting to question whether any part of this is a good idea. Personally, I would much rather have drive-by comments than tell people that if they can't invest as much time as other people can, that their contributions aren't welcome, even if there's nothing wrong with the actual substance of their comments. Mr.Z-man 03:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

(separate below)

As for the proposal, might I suggest a "bank robbery" clause? Slightly more organized crime. Persons who come in and make 5-25++ edits very quickly that are all technically minor edits or just 1 word changes in grammar or pluralization. It's impossible to keep up with and so long as the end result is disruptive and decreases the quality or factual nature of the article I'll revert them all in bulk. AIV is a clear outlet from there, and every before hitting 3RR the pattern of an edit war should be clear. Frankly, I'm surprised something like the ISS would get this kind of attention form random nameless persons not necessarily productive. Jeez. The proposal has some merit. Worry about your passing a FAC if you'd have no true fair chance first and you could consider writing up an essay to start with this. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 20:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this proposal. To request help, coordinate work with other users or request a more experienced editor to make a complex task for you there are other venues, such as the talk page itself, related wikiprojects, the village pump, the help desk, etc. (each one according to the nature of the problem). Peer review is not one of such venues: by placing an article there you are not asking "Can you fix this article for me?" but "What do I have to do to improve this article?". Like giving a hungry man a fishing pole, instead of just a fish. The idea is to get advise, and you should be grateful of such extensive advise. Something similar goes for FAC: an article nominated there should be "ready", so the review is about checking whenever it is really ready or not. If a reviewer find a lack of coverage and requests a section on X topic to be added, it's up to you to write it, fix the prose and spelling, reference it, give internal links and so on; you can't answer with "do it yourself or shut up" MBelgrano (talk) 03:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I got as far as the bit where you suggested that it was possible to violate the "Be Bold" policy and groaned. Ridiculous proposal, completely unworkable and little (if any) utility. ╟─TreasuryTag►constabulary─╢ 09:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

MBelgrano, that's not the point I'm making. I get on very well with the reviewer who provided the review I gave as example 2, was very grateful, the article improved a lot as a result and I thought the right thing to do was award him a barnstar, which I did. My point is that doing reviews this way effectively trebles the workload; the reviewer lists the problems, then lists the solutions, then another editor implements the solutions. Surely its better if the reviewer implements their own suggestions? As for utility, reducing stress & workload is the main purpose. Colds7ream (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction at WP:Content fork: content forks are not always bad.

The third sentence of WP:Content fork implies that content forks are always bad ("content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Misplaced Pages").

For this to be true, we'd have to be defining "content fork" to not include the overlap between article spinouts (e.g. history of coffee) and summary-style-sections (e.g. Coffee#History). But that's not how we're defining it: the first sentence of WP:Content fork defines the term to mean, quite simply, redundancy between articles ("A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject"; and coffee and history of coffee both "treat" the history of coffee). This contradiction has apparently been noticed, because someone has attempted to answer it, but the attempt just equates content forks with POV forks. ("Summary style articles, with sub-articles giving greater detail, are not content forking, provided that all the sub-articles, and the summary conform to Neutral Point of View") (emphasis added). (not really relevant.)

I propose to rewrite the lead at WP:Content fork as follows, to reflect that the term "content fork" is used to refer to two different things -- one which is acceptable, one which isn't.

A content fork occurs when there is more than one article containing a treatment of a given topic. This redundancy is problematic because it forces related discussions onto multiple talk pages, hinders coordination and consensus-building, and leads to inconsistencies between articles. Nevertheless, content forking is made inevitable to some degree by the natural overlap between encyclopedia topics, and is often encouraged in order to avoid overly lengthy articles (see Misplaced Pages:Summary style).

Unacceptable content forks are of two kinds.

• A point of view (POV) fork refers to an article whose existence has no justification except to promote violations of Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view guidelines. POV forks are assumed to be content forks, because they are generally redundant to (and may even be created to intentionally circumvent) a pre-existing but neutral discussion of that POV. They tend to cluster among articles whose title identifies a POV (e.g., "Criticism of "), although these articles are not always POV forks.

• The second kind is confusingly referred to simply as a "content fork". These occur when there more than one article that is entirely dedicated to a given topic. These redundant articles often arise accidentally. When they are identified, all substantive content should be merged into one of these articles; the others should be replaced with redirects to that article.

This is a revival (and improvement) of a proposal I made in August at the WP:Content fork talk page which ran out of steam.
Thoughts? Would anyone support introducing a new term -- "topic fork" or "article fork" -- to refer to bad content forks that are not POV forks? Andrew Gradman /_WP:Hornbook 21:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. The convention that "content forks" are undesirable is too entrenched to be changed now; trying to do so will only lead to people talking past each other, as one uses the old meaning and the other the new.

As for the merits: the otherwise acceptable practice of having a "summary article" and "subarticles" should use that established terminology. Subarticles are only content forks when they rewrite the main article; even when both are written from a neutral point of view, this is undesirable, since it means the subarticle is off topic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I think "content forks" should refer to forking out sub-articles (acceptable), and the unintentional creation of two differently titled articles covering the same topic should be simply referred to as "duplication" or "content duplication". - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 02:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Making the distinction between a legitimate spinout and a content fork has been a failing of the WP:CFORK document for as long as I've been aware of it. This has been an issue for a long time, so I would support any effort to improve the situation.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't quite understand the issue. Couldn't it just say "Summary style articles, with sub-articles giving greater detail, are not content forking", and be done with it, no qualifier required? Summary style is pretty clear, and should involve summary, not duplication. Rd232 11:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that is not always the case. If a sub-topic is not notable in itself, then it is likely that the coverage contained in the two articles is likely to be more or less the same. For example, the articles Terminator (character) and Terminator (character concept) are both about the same thing. You could swap the content of the two articles around, as neither topic is notable in itself.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

But those two article don't follow WP:SUMMARY. They're just two different articles on (very) closely related topics. Rd232 12:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

They do indeed follow WP:SUMMARY, but they are content forks from the Terminator films. In this case, there is nothing to distinguish the coverage of the film from these two articles. They are definately content forks. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 18:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

To clarify

• "fork" should mean "any redundancy (however small) between articles"; "POV fork" & "Content fork" should be pejorative and not overlap
• Rd232, here's the problem that would still remain: People are using the phrase "content fork" to refer to two different things. So imagine this: someone wants to get an article deleted; he gets it labeled a "content fork" under the first (neutral) definition ; then he equivocates by silently shifting to the negative definition ; defenders of the article do the opposite; and now deleters and defenders are talking past each other ("it is a content fork! no it isn't! but you just said it is! well yes, but content forking is not grounds for deletion! yes it is! ...). This problem will persist so long as "neutral CF" and "pejorative CF" are being referred to by the same name. (Septentrionalis PMAnderson, I thus view your concerns as being part of the status quo, and are precisely what I'm trying to solve...)
• The only solution is to rename one of them. I think the "neutral CF" will be the most amenable to renaming: People devote more thought and work to pejorative CF's; people don't even think of neutral CF's as content forks (evidenced by the widespread intuition that summary style/spinout combinations do not represent content forks). Thus, I rescind my proposal, from the end of my original post, that the pejorative CF should be renamed "topic fork" or "article fork".
• Instead, I propose we assign the name fork to the "neutral CF", retaining the name content fork only for the "pejorative CF". This entails the following:

(1) the lead at WP:Content fork should be changed to indicate that there is no overlap between the definitions of POV fork and content fork. A POV fork occurs when an article is created to argue for a POV. These articles have been treated as a kind of fork, only because they tend to be redundant to (and are often created to intentionally circumvent) a neutral discussion of that POV at an existing article. Nevertheless, its main sin is not redundancy (the essence of a "fork"), but a violation of WP:NPOV.

(2) We could, if you want, create separate articles for "content fork" and "POV fork", with a disambiguation page at "fork".

• Thoughts? Andrew Gradman /_WP:Hornbook 20:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

speaking idealistically, the only valid kind of content fork occurs in a semi-hierarchical structure, when a section of a given topic is large enough that it needs a separate article of its own. whenever two article cover the same material but do not have that kind of parent/child relationship, you're looking at a POV fork of some kind. unfrtunately there's no structure on wikipedia for dealing with multi-article coordination (unless someone sets up a project for that purpose, but projects don't have the force of policy). --Ludwigs2 20:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• There is a structure on wikipedia for dealing with multi-article coordination: notability. As a basic rule of thumb, any sub-article that does not contain signficant coverage from reliable secondary sources is a content fork from the overarching topic. For example, if the article Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series) provides evidence that its subject matter is notable, while the article Battlestar Galactica (ship) does not, then the article about the ship is a content fork. The reason is that its overarching topic (the TV series about the ship) is the subject of significant coverage that addresses its subject matter directly and in detail. Contrast that with the coverage of the ship, which all about the TV series. Unless reliable secondary sources can be found that mark out the ship as a suitable topic for a standalone article, then it would be better to elimate the content fork and redirect the article about the ship to that of the TV series. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 11:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that's going off on a tangent, talking about notability. The "forking" issue is essentially about duplication, and the type of case you're talking about needn't have any more or less duplication than a usual summary-style split. Rd232 12:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe Andrew Gradman's new proposal approximates current practice. whoops, misread it. Trying to distinguish "fork" from "content fork" is just going to confuse people. "content forking" is considered impermissible, and a POV fork is just a content fork with a specific intent. Whereas summary-style splitting of topics isn't considered "forking" (though on occasion, badly or maliciously done, it can end up being that, by failing to split/summarise appropriately). Rd232 12:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Notability is key to understanding which topics are content forks. Without coverage from reliable secondary sources, there is no reason to have a seperate standalone article. Content forks are basically articles which have some sources, but the coverage does not address the topic directly or in detail. Simply put, a content fork is an article without notability, whose subject matter is covered directly and in detail in another article. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 18:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

An appropriate content fork is not creating a new topic, but instead talking of one part of the subset of that topic. Notability needs to have already been demonstrated for the main topic before the content fork can be created. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with using Notability here is that it doesn't really tell us anything about the structures I talked about above. to use your example: say editor X is editing Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series) and editor Y is editing Battlestar Galactica (ship). Editor X thinks his article is the main one, and adds a bit about the ship; Editor Y also thinks his article is the main one, and adds a bit about the series; the two bits they each add contradict each other. Now, if we knew that the 'series' article was the main one, we could delete the section in the 'ship' article about the series; if we knew that the 'ship' article was the main one, we could delete the section in the 'series' article about the ship. But since there is no overarching structure which says this or that is the main article, the the two articles are going to continue to contradict each other (noxious content forks) either because the two editors don't know what's written in the other article, or because the two editors don't like what's in the other article, and aren't forced to work the overlapping bits into a single page. a lot of topics on wikipedia have this problem, often because different editors started writing good faith articles on different but related topics that grew into overlapping regions.

and yes, I recognize that I'm suggesting Misplaced Pages make some policies or guidelines about overarching metastructures to information, and that that is a major headache even to consider. I'm just saying... --Ludwigs2 19:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

←The basic principle of the guideline, i.e. multiple articles on a single distinct topic is undesirable, is sound. For editors, it dilutes collaborative article building; for readers, either the duplicates provide no further information, wasting their time or, they only find one article, it's of inferior quality to its four-pronged siblings, thus we do them a disservice. I too think conflating content forks with notability is a mistake. –Whitehorse1 18:04, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages includes articles of different types that share the same scope and which are entirely dedicated to the same topics, which makes them "content forks" according to the "The second kind" definition provided above. Misplaced Pages has prose articles and list articles. Topic lists (such as "List of opera topics" and Outline of geography are Misplaced Pages articles, and they share the same scope as the corresponding prose articles (Opera and Geography). But, topic lists serve different purposes than conventional (prose) articles: lists deal more specifically with the presentation of subjects' structures, and their format allows for faster readability, skim-ability, and navigation (they are somewhat menu-like). The cfork guideline apparently assumed "article" meant "prose article". Having two prose articles on the same subject or two glossaries on exactly the same subject is bad. But having an article and a glossary (and an index, and an outline) isn't bad (if the scope of the subject is broad enough to support these article types).

Therefore, the "second kind" definition should accomodate the other types of articles, perhaps like this:

• The second kind is confusingly referred to simply as a "content fork". These occur when there are more than one article of the same type that are entirely dedicated to a given topic. These redundant articles often arise accidentally. When they are identified, all substantive content should be merged into one of these articles; the others should be replaced with redirects to that article. Articles of different types (a standard prose article, a portal, a timeline, a glossary, an index, etc.) that cover the same subject are not considered to be harmful content forks, and they should not be merged together just because they cover the same subject.

The Transhumanist    23:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has turned into a soapbox of lawyer-wannabies

you can't post anything - even for articles of tiny attention - without being attacked by lawyer-wannabies. this is ridiculous, unproductive, destructive. bye. --Leladax (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, what is a lawyer-wannabe? Someone who wants to be a lawyer? ╟─TreasuryTag►most serene─╢ 15:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think with comments such as and , the OP has earned warnings for unproductive behavior. Grsz 15:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Regardless, he makes a point...

For TreasuryTag (assuming that you're not just making a snide comment), here's possibly a more "Misplaced Pages like" translation: There's too much process wonkery here.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 16:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

On this occasion it wasn't actually snide, no ;) Given that the editor has gone round demanding stuff, it doesn't sound like he has much of a leg to stand on, however. ╟─TreasuryTag►prorogation─╢ 16:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right about Leladax. Chillum is saying essentially the same thing, below. Like I said above though, regardless of his/her behavior and any problems there, I think that the point being brought up here is perfectly valid. There's too much process wonkery here. But anyway, many Wikipedians typically do conflate the actual point with the user (which is a whole other complaint/discussion), so it's not really a point worth perusing further here. I just wanted to reply to a direct response to my earlier comment, is all.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 18:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't see it. I have managed to edit here since 2006 without issue or running into lawyers. I suppose if I went around making demands I might be told I have no standing to make demands, but that is not really the same thing. Chillum 16:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Chillum, by and on behalf of the below signed, you are hereby on notice of your lack of standing. Further attempts to stand may and will be construed as grounds for litigation, on causes of action including but not limited to trespass to chattels, false light, false imprisonment, enterprise liability, and alienation of affection. Res ipsa loquitur, postdlf, Esq. 17:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, Misplaced Pages:No legal threats ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Treasury Tag, here is a perfect illustration in answer to your question. Postdlf's comment is an example of what a comment by lawyer would look like. Kim's comment is an example of what a comment by a lawyer-wannabe would look like. :) --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, we're all lawyers now. — Loadmaster (talk) 18:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Low blow, Low blow! :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 18:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't resist. So sue me... --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

:-D . "Can we keep hir, ma?" --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The basic premise is valid no matter how people word it wrongly. There is too much emphasis by certain individuals on policies as laws and enforced and interpretated as if they are laws and discussions are courtcases. If we treat policies as they are supposed to be (as our best known way of doing things generally as we know it right now) and not as set standards set in stone then wiki-lawyering and such would fall by the wayside. We need to make sure we slap down those individuals and make it abundantly clear that we dont have laws or "rules" and that whatever consensus determines at any given point is what is done, policies describe what we've done, not prescribe what must be done in the future.Camelbinky (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you to a point. I've often seen rote quotation of a policy (or worse, just an WP:ACRONYM) presented as an argument when the situation really calls for a reasoned application of that policy. We should keep/delete Content A because Policy B says Characteristic C is not permitted. What may be missing is an explanation of why we think A is C. It's also often a good idea to remind one another of the supposed benefit underlying the policy or guideline, which often helps us decide whether and how to apply it. On the other hand, one of the benefits of policies and guidelines are so we don't have to keep having the same discussions over and over. A lot of time and labor would be wasted if every quality-control issue were perpetually up for discussion as if no one had dealt with it before. postdlf (talk) 18:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it is perpetually up for discussion. However, linking to a page implies "just pretend I said this", the other person can then reply with a link back, implying "just pretend I said that". "99%" (made up number) of the time, that might be sufficient. On the other tentacle, that means that "1%" of the time, it isn't, and you actually still need to do more. Looking at the number of edits the young 'uns need to do to even just make admin these days; that 1% means a LOT of times where you need to do something more ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC) These values are an estimate; Actual numbers may vary; offer void in states where offers are voided.

Incidentally: Some things policy can't do. For everything else there's master WP:WOTTAcard. --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It's also often a good idea to remind one another of the supposed benefit underlying the policy or guideline, which often helps us decide whether and how to apply it — my words exactly. Misplaced Pages does a very poor job in telling why a given policy is what it is. What is the benefit, and how why did we write this policy up in the first place? Such information is currently very difficult, if not impossible to find. For each policy page, we need an essay describing the process how that policy was developed, which bad things it is supposed to prevent and what the policy's original purpose is. Offliner (talk) 04:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

On a related note, it seems like layers of "bureaucruft" seem to somehow accrue on stuff, never to be removed. This is actually a serious threat for an online community like ours. I would be very interested in figuring out solutions on how to reverse this process. --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

One way to rectify that problems is to say "we will not have anything as a policy or guideline that does not directly relate to creating an encyclopedia". We are first and foremost and ONLY an encyclopedia, not a community or social experiment and we are not here to find new ways of social control. We are individuals who want to work on an online encyclopedia, any other reason for being here is irrelevant and those here for any other reason are no different than vandals.Camelbinky (talk) 22:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have an existing policy or guideline in mind that you don't consider related to creating an encyclopedia? postdlf (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much any of the ettiquette ones, like "dont write in bold on a talk page its yelling!" Though the wording is less harsh now than it used to be before I had to throw a fit about it and got it changed. What does telling people not to write in bold on a talk page have to do with editing an article? I'm sure there's other unneeded, petty, or useless things out there too. I'm sure some wikilawyering can show how it is tangentially related to editing... but I dont believe any of the social control ideas that have come through Misplaced Pages help actual editing. In fact we shouldnt even be HERE right now we should just have articles that you can edit and that is it, we waste too much time on talking about these social aspect things instead of spending time researching and adding information to articles.Camelbinky (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Then why ARE you 'here'? Go edit articles in peace, noone's stopping you. As for everyone else, well considering it's a completely volunteer project, we all can do what we want. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Um, I was answering Postdlf's question, and your response was very uncivil and uncalled for. What is your problem? Im not allowed my opinion and to voice it? Since this is your first post on this thread I see no reason why you would even be commenting now and only in response to my last comment unless there was a ulterior motive personally directed towards me. I hope your next response is that of an apology, otherwise we can take this to the wikiquette noticeboard. I believe policy states quite clearly that you respond about comments, not the commenter. And no your not allowed to do "what you want", you cant make Misplaced Pages a social networking site like Facebook for example. So your very comment is devoid of what Misplaced Pages is about, which it is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, nothing more, nothing less.Camelbinky (talk) 01:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Translated, your sentence says "IF apology, GOTO end; ELSE, GOTO Wikiquette-violation noticeboard."

In a thread about wikilawyering!

Unless someone has a unique solution to fixing the argumentative aspects of human nature, I propose we just end this thread now. Confucius say, "All people are the same, only their habits differ."

First person who responds to this thread, thereby further preventing it from getting archived, loses. Everyone who remains wisely silent, wins! -- Quiddity (talk) 02:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I guess I lose, then. Just wanted to point out that GOTO should never, ever be used. Also, Camelbinky, weren't you just arguing that we should get rid of the civility policies, and then you go and threaten someone with WQA? Seems a tad hypocritical. The Wordsmith 03:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

What's hypocritical is that users who go around spouting that civility must exist and take up all their time with these inane topics are the ones that are the most uncivil when you disagree with them or want to get rid of things. My complaint was valid about what she said. Just because I dont care for the civility policies doesnt mean I'm not going to take advantage of the fact that they exist. It isnt being hypocritical, its applying neorealism to Misplaced Pages; I act within the constraints and benefits provided by the anarchic system that exists as long as it is in my best interest whether I agree with the way the system is or not. Still waiting on that apology. Dont see why a couple words saying "I may have been too harsh" is so hard and why others find that their two cents is needed regarding what was said to me... I thought this thread was a good one until I was personally attacked.Camelbinky (talk) 03:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I sincerely doubt you're going to get an apology. I see nothing in that statement that qualifies as a personal attack. is it the "why are you here" part? the "nobody's stopping you from just editing articles" part? the "we're volunteers" part? I'm just not seeing it. The Wordsmith 03:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Reading all this, I have to point out some sociological facts of life.

• Wherever you get more than two people interacting, they are going to form a community. In particular, when you put people together to try to achieve a common goal (such as building an encyclopedia), they will naturally begin cooperating, competing, organizing and dividing labor, and creating likes, dislikes and established patterns of interaction that are what communities are. Saying that wikipedia is not a community is a bit like claiming that the earth and the moon just happen to stay close to each other and gravity has nothing to do with it.
• A community without some solid norms of civil interaction will always - always! - create them. The problem is, most new communities begin in Lord of the Flies mode. This is particularly true for wikipedia (since normal social conventions don't translate well into cyber interactions) means several things:
  • Groups organize around collective POVs (wikipedia's equivalent of rotting boar's heads, down the same kind of fearful, mystical devotion)
  • Groups create and defend their own internal norms, and try to force them on other groups, often violently and unreasoningly (I can think of at least four different groups on wikipedia that have developed their own peculiar interpretations of policy and refuse to listen to any other, and there's at least two different interpretations defended above)
  • Outcasts and those not affiliated with groups are actively hunted with a particular viciousness (non-affiiated people threaten the group identity much more than opponents - that's why neutral editors are often attacked if they try to intervene on contested pages)
• This will continue until some kind of common group norm is internalized by a sufficient number of people that it becomes a de facto truth. until that time the project will be dominated by any tribes that are large enough to enforce their will on a given selection of articles, and the whole thing will be an exquisite case study for Machiavelli's next book. honestly, the only thing that's saved wikipedia to date is that most editors really are trying to make a good encyclopedia. their conception of a good encyclopedia is fetishistic (in the non-sexual sense of the word), which spoils a lot of pages and creates a lot of conflict, but at least it keeps the project on focus.

So I can see why a new editor might feel frustrated and paranoid - they wandered into the territory of some wiki-tribe and got hit with an unexpected hail of barbed comments, and probably can't even get a decent explanation for it. very off-putting, that. --Ludwigs2 05:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Iron law of oligarchy. Its will be done. --Cybercobra (talk) 05:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The real trouble here is that Misplaced Pages has actively chosen to eschew the abundance of preexisting expert online community building advice in favor of the chaos and institutional anti-social behavior that we currently deal with. A large part of the problem here is technological, which liquidthreads should help with significantly, eventually. The other aspect of this problem though is more serious, in that there's been a groupthink decision made to purposely "go our own way" ("This is Misplaced Pages! We're so smart and big that we need or own special rules!"). It's sad, but I've become resigned to the fact that "we" want English Misplaced Pages to be socially dysfunctional.12:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ohms law (talk • contribs)

LiquidThreads is only a start. We'd need a WYSIWYG to make real headway in the technology department. --Cybercobra (talk) 12:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

True, but at least it's something (and I can't believe that I forgot to sign my post above...)
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

And thats the problem! "Anytime you get a group together they are going to need social order" blah blah blah. And NO, that is not the case. I have a degree in poli sci, working on my masters for poli sci as well, and though my discipline focus is in comparative politics, I still know more than most about the social aspects of political organization and such than most. It is not in fact inevitable that INDIVIDUALS who come a website to work on an ENCYCLOPEDIA must form social cohesion. The social aspect and organization has developed because there are those amongst us who want and need social order wherever they are and therefore must impose it on others (we all now those types who think their mores must be enforced on others). If the only reason you log on every day to Misplaced Pages is to strengthen policies, enforce conformity, make sure policies are enforced, ban people for incivility, and pretty much do anything BUT any meaningful editing or improving to an article (which could be as simple as just copyediting, a very important job) then you are part of the problem of why there exists even the semblence of a "community". If Misplaced Pages only existed of individuals who came to edit articles (or copyedit, or add photos, or fix dead-link references, etc) then there would be no "community". Unfortunately some are here not for the purpose of working on an encyclopedia.Camelbinky (talk) 01:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Sadly, such a viewpoint is the exact reason we have so many problems here. Complete anarchy inevitably leads to conflict. No one is suggesting that an authoritarian regime be imposed on Misplaced Pages, but some friggin' leadership would certainly go a long way towards settling things down around here. Everything almost inevitably becoming a conflict, and the uncertainty involved in editing here, certainly doesn't help the content or the community.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 03:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

New notability guideline proposed for software

See: Misplaced Pages talk:Essay on the notability of software#RfC: Should this notability essay be promoted to the status of a guideline. Pcap ping 20:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Removing Articles by Forwarding

Are changes like this one generally made without a vote? What I mean is, is a vote only required for such a change when someone thinks it's necessary? If a vote is required, why does the software allow such changes without alarm bells going off? If there was a vote, how can I figure out where the 'vote log' is? --82.171.70.54 (talk) 14:52, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

That redirect was as a result of this WP:Articles for deletion/Ad van den Berg, an AfD debate in May 2007. i found this out by looking at the Revision history of Ad van den Berg. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes; article merges do not require a vote if they are uncontroversial. But (1) the link you posted is from 2007 and (2) it was the result of an AFD discussion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. --82.171.70.54 (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If an article is not nominated at Articles For Deletion, then in almost all cases I would strongly suggest that merging one article into another article, and changing the first article into a redirect to the second article, be discussed first on the talk page of the first article. The redirect does have the effect of deleting an article, and so it should generally only be done after such a discussion takes place. Most of the time you'd want to wait at least a week before doing the merge. The {{Mergeto}} and {{Mergefrom}} templates should be placed on the two articles to alert editors to the discussion. If the merge is super-non-controversial then I guess this could be skipped. — Mudwater 17:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

No, that sort of beurocracy is not, and should not be, required. If there is any foreseeable controversy about performing a merger then a discussion should be started, but you don't need permission to perform a merger.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 18:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not a bureaucracy, it's a procedure that, in my opinion, should be used in most cases of merging articles that don't have an AFD nomination. The idea is that, in general, editors should not unilaterally delete articles. Instead they should open a talk page discussion and try to create a consensus that the article should be deleted, i.e. merged into another article and changed to a redirect. If a reasonable person would not object to the merge, then by all means just do the merge. Otherwise there should be some kind of discussion before an article is deleted. I'm not sure, but maybe we are already in agreement about this -- you said, "If there is any foreseeable controversy about performing a merger then a discussion should be started, but you don't need permission to perform a merger." I'm saying the same thing, I think. — Mudwater 19:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The advantage of a wiki is that any change can easily be undone,so there's no need to forbid edits that turn articles into redirects without discussion. In many instances this may be exactly what should be done. Following the Be bold editing guideline, there's no need to stand on formality. Just go ahead and do what seems right unless there is a clear sign that it might be a controversial action.

The example given is a good one. All usable content from an article about a person whose sole claim to fame is as treasurer of a minor political party was merged with the article about the party and the original article was changed to a redirect. Note also that in this case the merger had been mandated after a deletion discussion, but this is not always the case, nor is it a precondition for a merge or redirect. In some cases, where two articles are duplicates in content, a redirect without merging is appropriate. --TS 19:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. We need to be really careful to prevent the development of bureaucratic cruft around around merging. Just grow a pair and do the merge, for crying out loud. If you see one that you disagree with, go ahead and revert it and start a discussion. If you're reverted, then discuss the issue. Otherwise, just let them happen. There's already enough of a problem with mergers without intentionally making the problem worse.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 21:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the idea of not adding unnecessary rules and procedures. Being bold is often a good approach. But, "growing a pair" has nothing to do with it. Articles should not be merged into other articles without discussion, except when doing so is truly non-controversial, in which case it's fine. So, once again it's a case of using common sense. — Mudwater 22:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I think we basically agree, and continuing this thread would be like arguing over whether the glass is half full or half empty. --TS 22:10, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You're right. And, just to show you that my heart's in the right place, here's an example, where I merged one article into another, without any prior discussion. Cheers, all. — Mudwater 22:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

My only real concern here was... er, "editorial" (in the sense of newspaper editorial opinion, if that makes sense). The Village pump is basically it for what little community there is here on Misplaced Pages, so things said here tend to be... magnified? If the commentary here appears supportive of a stance that merges are "not allowed" without jumping through hoops, then there are people who will take that and run with it. It's not that we ever really disagreed, it's just a question of... rhetoric, I guess. Does this make sense at all? I'm having trouble expressing this appropriately, it seems.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It does make sense. Thanks for the discussion, I appreciate it. — Mudwater 23:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

PROD

I propose that the time a "prod" tag must remain uncontested before the article gets deleted be cut down to three days. Three days should be enough time for the proponents of the article to voice their opinions -- not that it takes much to voice an opinion in the first place, as all one has to do is to remove the tag. Rasputin72 (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

WT:PROD would be the relevant place to bring this up (not that it's irrelevant here). --Cybercobra (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Not everyone checks Misplaced Pages every day. --Apoc2400 (talk) 13:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Foolish people, they are. :-) Colds7ream (talk) 14:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Which is the need for shortening the time period? If an article needs to be deleted inmediately, there is speedy deletion for clear cases MBelgrano (talk) 14:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Not everyone checks wiki daily; seven days is fine. -- Avi (talk) 18:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Seven days for PROD is perfectly reasonable, anything that needs to go sooner than that we have CSD. -SpacemanSpiff 18:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia UI spoofing

Propose banning or disallowing Wikimedia UI spoofing like the orange new message bar. --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 07:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Are you that bored? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

right? meet .
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 22:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support because it's stupid and deliberately irritating, though this will go nowhere quickly. ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 08:04, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Weak support. An outright ban may be too harsh and may well not get support; but it should at least be written somewhere in policy that it's "strongly discouraged". It's mildly disruptive at best, so why pretend it's completely OK? Rd232 19:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

  Already is discouraged, at Misplaced Pages:User page#Simulated MediaWiki interfaces.
  Further old discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:User page/UI spoofing and Misplaced Pages:Avoid imitating MediaWiki user interface elements. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support a ban. This might not work, but as TT says it's bloody annoying. Ironholds (talk) 19:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support strongly discouraging it. It's plain annoying and makes me wonder for a second if I really do have new messages... Netalarmwelcome to 2010! 20:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support strongly discouraging it. I have made gentle suggestins to editors who have spoofed the new nessage bar in the past. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 21:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support strongly discouraging for established users, and banning for anyone with less than, say, 12 months helpful contributions. I would be very happy for the first person who thought of this to keep it, but there is too much copying, particularly by people who look like they are settling down for a multiplayer online game. Johnuniq (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
• Strongly discouraging? What does that even mean? We don't want you to do this but we won't do anything about it if you do? Unless you intend to make it a blockable offence, which would be insane for such a harmless joke, any rule would be unenforceable, making this entire discussion utterly pointless. Stop sweating something so insignificant and go back to editing articles--Jac16888 02:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
• Support. You got a believer in me too, pal! Rasputin72 (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

comment

not ban the user but outlaw the use of the annoying bars and other UI elements! --Tyw7  (Talk • Contributions)   Changing the world one edit at a time! 14:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Bureaucrat Unchecking RfC

Per the discussion at WT:RFA#Unchecking the box, an RfC has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Bureaucrat Unchecking. Your collective input is desired. -- Avi (talk) 15:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages policy neutral? Are the administrators neutral?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Is_ Misplaced Pages policy neutral? Are the administrators neutral?

This discussion should be moved elsewhere (WP:ANI, I guess), since it does not seem to be about policy in general but rather about a specific incident of policy enforcement. Rd232 19:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

PROD proposal

Hi; I've made a proposal about the workings of ProposedDeletion® on the policy talkpage here – eyes requested! ╟─TreasuryTag►Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster─╢ 08:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards