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== January 2010 == == January 2010 ==
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/School Rumble/archive2}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Rebbie Jackson/archive2}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Château-Gaillard/archive1}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie/archive4}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/The Slip (album)/archive1}} {{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/The Slip (album)/archive1}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Video Killed the Radio Star/archive1}} {{Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Video Killed the Radio Star/archive1}}

Revision as of 03:11, 16 January 2010

January 2010

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:11, 16 January 2010 .

School Rumble

Nominator(s): 陣内Jinnai 18:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because I have finished resolving any issues from the previous FAC (that I could tell). To the 2 sources that were not given reasons (ComiPress & Digital-Sat), the former is a of anime and manga news site that republishes information relating to the mediums. Per WP:ENGLISH the use in this article is to make the listing, originally in Japanese, more accessible to those who cannot speak it. While originally it was a mix of editorial and user posts, since 2006 its split and the site listed is the official news site. For the latter, that is the website for an Italian online magazine on digital TV that that has existed for a decade. On the other issue, I have replaced the screenshot with a short clip which meets WP:FAIRUSE and also given direct, sourced, commentary relating to it and why its use would be needed, in addition to text, that neither text nor text and a screenshot alone could show, part of which is linked to another wiki article in the text and caption.

Note: I will be away from my usual computer throughout the holidays, but should be able to respond within a reasonable time, especially after Sunday.陣内Jinnai 18:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • No dabs, and external links and alts look good.
  • Minor (to me): After I replaced a hyphen with a dash in the References, I noticed a bunch of time ranges use hyphens, date ranges use spaced en dashes, and prose uses em dashes. I tried a script, but the resulting diff didn't look like it would catch much (or fix them to one style as I hoped), so I leave any dash or hyphen fixes to others.
  • Check that each ref is used only once for each statement (I removed a dupe). Check also for missing words (I added one)—you don't want to accidentally a source.
    • I will have to wait to do a thorough check on that given the size of the article, the number of refs and the speed of my relative's computer till i get back unless any of them come out as inneduatky sspicious.陣内Jinnai 04:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Good video btw. It helps illustrate the Initial D reference far better than the old image, and I think (esp. with the text commentary) it easily meets the non-free crits. (added on 19:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC))

--an odd name 00:25, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Is the absence of the games from the animanga infobox intentional? I also noticed that it's not categorized under Category:2005 video games and Category:2006 video games. --Remy Suen (talk) 03:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The lack of games from the infobox is intentional; such items are commonly produced for even remotly successful anime and the games are otherwise of little note. Furthermore it was never intended to have a game posted for an anime unless it was based originally on a game, like Air (visual novel) or it has concurrent release like .hack.
As for the categories, I can add those later when i am at a better pc.陣内Jinnai 23:31, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
2005/2006 video game categories added.陣内Jinnai 20:46, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose, 1a. It's pretty good, but the prose is flat in many places. What should be an interesting topic to read about was difficult to get through for me. I'd recommend getting a fresh pair of eyes on it to pep it up and introduce some variety in the writing. The plot section is one of the worst offenders, but the droning lists of languages, release dates, formats, and so on could use a touch-up as well. Not a ton of work, but needs refreshing.
    • Essentially naming off a list of releases and dates or formats is dull. Ex. the second paragraph of the lead, and the first paragraph of the Manga heading. Let's find a fresh and interesting way to write about this.
      • I'm attempting to find some other copyeditors at the moment. The article has been copyedited by a second copyeditor.
    • It's somewhat overlinked—please don't link common dicdef terms like "puns", "eccentric", and so on. Some terms are linked multiple times, like "protagonist".
      • I removed some of the links. The remaining ones are duplicated from the lead and the prosebody. I am leaving pun linkage because it is a core concept around which the manga revolves around (along with a few other types of humor) and as such it is reasonable to link to that one. If you want me to remove the ones linked in the lead that are also linked in the body, just let me know.
    • In the lead you write "Unlike other Del Rey releases, the English translation retains the naming order of the Japanese original to preserve puns based on the characters' names." Later, you write "Del Rey also retained the Japanese naming order to preserve the series' humor." The source supports the fact that Del Rey is doing this and why, but neither your main body prose nor the source support the "unlike other Del Rey releases" phrase. Please make sure that what you write in the lead is reflected in the main body, and that the source supports it.
      • Removed the part about "unlike" in the lead.
        • Great thanks. In the future, I would appreciate it if you would not strike comments that I make. I will strike comments as appropriate when I feel they have been addressed. --Andy Walsh (talk) 05:28, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
    • The laundry list of citations after some statements are ugly and undesirable. If you say something was translated in n languages, can we just cite one source that lists the languages rather than citing every primary source where that language is available?
      • Sorry none of the sources really say that. I can cut down the list if you want, but there is no source that says SR was translated into multiple languages.
        • It's not a huge deal. It's just visually unappealing to me and creates the appearance that it's a controversial statement that requires a number of citations. --Andy Walsh (talk) 16:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Well a lot of them were leftovers from when the infoboxes listed non-English/non-Japanese publishers. So each one was basically verify that either it was licensed for DVD release or shown on a network in another language.陣内Jinnai 07:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
--Andy Walsh (talk) 04:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:11, 16 January 2010 .

Rebbie Jackson

Nominator(s): Pyrrhus16 20:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because I have worked on it for a few months and believe that it meets the FA criteria. Thanks, Pyrrhus16 20:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Support as per last nom. Sources are fine. It's a nicely researched, nicely written article. I think people may have been a tad harsh last time. If anything the prose is much improved. RB88 (T) 15:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Mm40 (talk) on ref formatting/external links, I'll review prose later

  • "At the age of 34" can just be "At age 34" (just saw this randomly)
  • Done.
  • All the Jet, Vibe, and Billboard references should use {{cite journal}}
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Ref 30 (Ultratop chart) should have "Ultratop" (with the link) in the work parameter
  • Done.
  • Under References, either all of or none of the publishers should be linked
  • Unlinked all.
  • Under External links, I think it should be "at the Internet Movie Database"
  • Done.

Image Review — No images. Done. Imzadi1979 (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose, 1a, 1b and 1c. It's pretty good! My concern is that you seem to have done some of your research from sources that tend to focus on the drama aspects of the Jackson family when this should really be mostly about Rebbie Jackson the musician. The result is sort of a tabloid vibe in some parts. You get away from it when you discuss her music which is good. There are many more good sources available than what you have represented here. Have you searched library databases such as Academic Search Premier, International Index to Music Periodicals, Access World News, etc? Thing brings a larger concern—your biography essentially ends in 1998 with the release of Yours Faithfully, as if nothing happened in her life after that. — Laser brain — continues after insertion below
I did some source research for this the first time and this time again and found zilch. Compared to the rest of them, she's basically a hermit. I think depth-wise in terms of sources it's fine. (Although, some people may want more fleshing out with those sources which are available.) That's fine, but last time it seemed to encourage those who wanted more and those wanted less in equal measure. That's why I thought it was a bit unfair. People somehow want sources to appear from thin air and sometimes that's impossible for certain articles. RB88 (T) 01:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes I agree that this can sometimes devolve into a give-and-take that seemingly doesn't appease anyone. I noted, for instance, that some previous reviewer had them take out the whole section of her life after 1998. And I don't ask until I look myself, on the the sources. I came up with bunches of hits that were not used here, and I think it's worth scanning the magazines and newspapers for less tabloid-like facts. If it turns out the research has been done to the extent it needs to, I would still like to comb through this a bit to get the tone more in line with an encyclopedia. --Andy Walsh (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I think there's 4 key questions here which I'll be answering then. 1. Does it contain "tabloid" sources? NO. 2. Are there other sources available? YES. 3. Is their material a duplicate of what's already used or used in a book synthesis. Pretty much YES. I only found one more source which I gave Pyrrhus yesterday and that only had marginal info and a couple of quotes. 4. Is the prose "tabloid-y"? I don't think so, but you're your own person, so are entitled to bringing up issues. But I think source wise it's fine. RB88 (T) 00:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Have you looked in the databases I mentioned? --Andy Walsh (talk) 03:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I looked at academic publications through the complete UK unis database and also the Proud Gallery's extensive database of news and archives including primary sources. (And Google News obviously, but that goes without saying). Overall, I think maybe more comprehensive that what has been mentioned as examples but I might be wrong. RB88 (T) 03:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

However, I found sources in Access World News with info about her involvement in Michael's death, her being declared a front runner for caring for Michael's children, etc. All this is missing from your article. Some other specific problems:

  • In the last FAC of the article, a reviewer thought that the death section seemed to be trivia, so I removed it. I have now restored it along with details on her role towards Michael Jackson's children.
    • "The album, her last to date, had the singer collaborate with artist and producers" Oddly worded... how did the album have her do anything? Active voice is preferable but don't word it so the "album" is doing something.
    • Changed to "The production of the album, her last to date, had the singer collaborate..." Hopefully, this is better.
    • "It also featured contributions from her children, who were fathered by Nathaniel Brown." Again, a strange meandering way of telling us who the father of her children is. Then you stop short and use another sentence to tell us he is also her husband. Jarring. Why not just say her children, full stop, and then tell us who she's been married to. Readers will have no reason to assume they are anyone else's children.
    • Reworded sentences.
    • "Her siblings are..." It seems weird to provide the birth dates of the dead siblings but not for all of them. Why not just "(d. 1957)" and "(d. 2009)" or whatever the convention is?
    • Done.
    • The Marriage section is too People-magazine-ish. It focuses on the conflict, which is certainly what was in the papers and magazines, but it shouldn't be the overall tone of the section.
    • I've tweaked a few parts that I thought might be most problematic.
    • "The songs from the album were recorded at Tito's Ponderosa Studios" Would saying "The album was recorded at..." change the meaning? Don't use words you don't need.
    • Done.
--Andy Walsh (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Pyrrhus16 22:30, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Additional comments - I still feel that attention is needed to the prose. It does not flow well. Major problems in research and comprehensiveness continue to emerge. Some specifics:
    • There are several instances where the writing dances around continuously saying "Jackson <verb>" or "Rebbie <verb>" by using phrases like "The teenager thought", "The young woman ... wanted", and "the female singer's album included". It feels forced, like we're trying to avoid repetition or ambiguity by using synonyms instead of introducing actual variety into the prose. I recommend getting someone new to go through the whole thing, after comprehensiveness and quality of research are addressed.
    • Many awkward turns of phrase and instances of wordiness such as:
      • "Division was created in the Jackson family" Why are we twisting sentences like this into passive voice? Wouldn't this be better: "18-year-old Rebbie's announcement that she wanted to marry her childhood love Nathaniel Brown in 1968 created a division in the Jackson family."
      • "Jackson expressed her feeling for the man" What feeling? Something not covered by wanting to marry him?
      • "Having the last word on the matter, Joseph refused to walk his daughter down the aisle." Does the first clause really tell us anything that the second doesn't? Does Taraborrelli state that he was trying to have the last word?
      • "Due to ratings success" Owing to?
      • "With the album, Jackson became the last of her siblings to release hit material and embark on a career in music." The first idea is ambiguous; it could be interpreted that no Jackson released "hit material" (which is ambiguous in and of itself) after Centipede. Certainly that's not true? I'm sure you mean that of all the Jacksons that ever released "hit material", Rebbie was the last in line... but the reader doesn't necessarily know that. The second idea, "embark on a career in music" is just confusing, since you've been writing about her musical career back with "Jackson began her singing career in 1974". Oof.
      • "was not released as a single, despite receiving substantial airplay." When would airplay cause something to be released as a single?
    • I'm still not convinced that this has been carefully researched and is comprehensive. I did another search today in Access World News and found stories about a reality TV show that Rebbie was offered and in which Michael's kids will star. It seems there is a whole chapter of her life missing, really. There are sources about her performing in a huge tribute concert in 2009 (JOSH MCAULIFFE. (2009, April 9). Jacksons’ big sister to perform at Apollo-Motown tribute. Times-Tribune, The (Scranton, PA) Retrieved January, 13 2010 from NewsBank on-line database (Access World News)), etc. etc. If I find a hit within a couple minutes of searching that contains information we're not representing here, I'm not at all comfortable.
      • From my research, the reality show rejection news is from the end of 2009, so maybe a bit harsh to expect it to be included. I personally would say it's trivial in the grand scheme of things and ask for its removal if it was in there. I also couldn't find any news whatsoever at AWN. What search criteria did you run? RB88 (T) 03:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
        • How is it "harsh" to state my opinion? This is the second time here I've seen you call out reviewers as "harsh". I'm sorry but if you're putting your article up for FA status, you are inviting close scrutiny and criticism. At any rate, I'm searching "Rebbie Jackson" in quotes; what are you searching? --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Sorry, if you felt antagonised. I was also just stating my opinion. The recent timeframe may have been a reason why its missing, because research might have ended before the end of 2009. In any case, I don't think it warrants any comments about lacking comprehensiveness. And I was searching exactly using that criteria and did not find anything. RB88 (T) 04:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
            • I don't feel antagonized. I'm just saying I don't think I've said anything harsh. You commented about the reality show but what about the tribute concert? We really don't want to say anything about her life in the 2000's other than how it relates to Michael's death? That's ten years neglected! --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
              • That does seem reasonable. Maybe it should have been phrased that way to begin with. Let's see what the editor has to say. RB88 (T) 05:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
      • I can find no sources on her performing at the concert. The above source that you mentioned states that she was expected to perform. Adding that to the article, without knowing if she did, would be inconclusive. Artists have often cancelled scheduled appearances at the last minute. In regard to the reality show, it seems trivial to mention it because she was not involved with it. Pyrrhus16 19:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
    • Where is the critical commentary about Centipede and the other albums? It is out there in droves and it's non-existent here... for example, about Centipede:
      • "With Centipede (Columbia 12-inch), Rebbie Jackson benefits from the songwriting smarts of the most famous of her five famous brothers. Now, if she would only develop a singing style different from that of a famous ex-Supreme." (Rich Harry, October 13, 1984, The Morning Call)
      • " very creditable showing" (Jonathan Takiff, October 18, 1984, Philadelphia Daily News)
      • "Michael Jackson produces his older sister, and - surprise! - the result is something more than mere sibling hype. Rebbie's singing is cool and sensuous, and Michael has surrounded her with a sharply percussive rhythm track that uses the synthesizer as an ethereal mood-enhancer. The melody is rather tiresome when repeated for five minutes, and the lyric makes absolutely no sense at all - it's almost aggressively dumb - but the chorus is a killer." (Ken Tucker, September 16, 1984, The Philadelphia Inquirer
--Andy Walsh (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Album critical commentary should be reserved to the album pages (regardless if those pages are created or not) and not in the biography. A single line (i.e. favourable, non, or mixed) is all that is needed. Same for singles critical comms in album pages. RB88 (T) 03:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I afraid I don't agree with you in this case. It would be one thing if the album articles were fleshed out and contained the information, but they don't. They're just stubs. It's not acceptable for the information to just be "nowhere". When and if someone beefs up the album articles, they have a head start. We can't afford to ignore a whole cross-section of sources and leave readers in the dark about these topics in her life. --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
We're not here to discuss or appraise the album articles. We're here to dissect Rebbie Jackson. Adding detailed critical commentary of albums, especially quotes, in a musical bio is excessive detail and should not be done. That detail should be and must be reserved for the respective Critical section in each album. If they don't have them, then 1. It shouldn't mean her bio has to have them and 2. It shouldn't mean her bio has to fail the comprehensiveness test because of it. RB88 (T) 04:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think one can dissect Rebbie Jackson without talking about how her albums were received. We are presenting her as a musician, and saying she is notable for being a musician. We certainly can't stand just on the fact that she's a Jackson. What else is there? She's a Jackson and she makes music. It's certainly worth mentioning that Michael's involvement with Centipede, for example, was pretty much the best thing that could be said about it according to some reviewers. Additionally, I meant my comments to be representative and an indication that sources are missing. The things I posted here were found just on the first page of results in Access World News. That almost always means more is lacking. --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Important details about the studio sessions can be added, like Michael helping her. On the other hand, specific album critical commentary does not have a place in her bio. A "favourable, non, or mixed" reception with a handful of refs at the end of the sentence is all that's required. If more detail is added, it will fail WP:SUMMARY and I will be the one to oppose. RB88 (T) 05:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with RB88, and have added that the album received mixed reviews from journalists. I don't feel it's necessary to list every comment ever printed about the album in her biography article. This is not even done for album articles. Pyrrhus16 19:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment on Pyrrhus16's recent edits: Thanks for your fixes so far! You've patched up my examples, but I'd still recommend waiting until after the comprehensiveness/research issue is resolved and getting a copyedit from someone new to the text. By doing so, you get a fresh perspective on not only the writing style (which I still find lacking, ex. "MTV later concluded that the album struggled.") but also on issues you may be too close to the text to see. For example, the headings: Why begin them all with year ranges when their content does not reflect those ranges? The "1986–1997: Reaction and R U Tuff Enuff" heading only covers events through 1988 and then you end with a vague statement that "she performed around the world during this hiatus." What does that mean? Are you saying she claimed a hiatus that wasn't really a hiatus? What happened between 1988 and 1998? Next, we have a heading ostensibly covering 1998–2008, but the writing really is only about one year. Again, what happened in those 10 years? You can't claim that nothing of note happened because you can't find sources. I'm not guessing that there are sources available—I know they are available because I looked. You'll have to move past Googling and hit the public library, or ask a reference librarian for help using the databases. I can be swayed about my 1a objection after a thorough copyedit, but I can't in good conscience ignore the large temporal gaps in coverage. --Andy Walsh (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:11, 16 January 2010 .

Château-Gaillard

Nominator(s): Nev1 (talk) 16:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


Here we have an article about Richard the Lionheart's favourite castle. There's not an enormous amount to say about it because the site was built in one phase, a monumental effort that was mostly complete in just two years, and the most important parts of its history were the first few years of its existence. The article details the main points about the castle, touching on its history and its importance in the context of castle building, and I believe it is comprehensive. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to review the article. Nev1 (talk) 16:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment I think the letters on the plan should be explained further in the caption, & tied into the text. Also the photos, or at least one of them, should identify the larger lumps left, and the direction of view. Barthélemy, who I used on Castle, says that Richard's ""manor" was situated outside and below the citadel" - not sure if this is H on the plan or outside the castle altogether. A couple of lines on Richard's career would give context - he'd been back from the Crusades for less than 2 years in 1196. In "Walter de Coutances travelled to Rome in the winter of 1196.." - is that 1195-96 or 1196-97? Best to specify. Johnbod (talk) 18:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure I can explain the letters on the plan; I can't find Viollet-le-Duc's explanation of the plan. Allen Brown has a plan in his book (Allen Brown's English Castles) but doesn't go into as much detail as Viollet-le-Duc; in fact all he does is lable the baileys, moats, and the keep.
As for the other points, I completely agree and have made the changes. The captions now better explain the images, "the winter of 1196" has been clarified. How's this for more background? Nev1 (talk) 16:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Other points fine. V-D's plan, or an equivalent, ought to be online in French somewhere. I may have a look over the next few days, & I need to give it a thorough read-through, but we seem on track here. Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Alt text added (I knew I'd forgotten something). I've not added any alt text for the plan though as it would pretty much be repeating the caption. Nev1 (talk) 16:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Some alt text needs to be there. It needn't repeat the caption, as the image contains many details not in the caption. However, if you think the diagram merely repeats the adjacent article (not the caption), please use a placeholder as per WP:ALT#Placeholders. Also, the location map needs alt text; please use the |map_alt= parameter of {{Infobox Military Structure}}. The alt text you added looks very good; thanks! Eubulides (talk) 19:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
File:Plan.Chateau.Gaillard.png is missing alt text. Jappalang (talk) 08:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
How's this? Nev1 (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, it all looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 17:49, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
The panoramic pictures were a lucky find. I couldn't decide which to use so thought I'd go for both! The coloured image gives a fuller view of the castle, but the black and white photo is a personal favourite as it's just stunning. Nev1 (talk) 16:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Image review: all images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. However, File:Plan.Chateau.Gaillard.png and File:Siege.Chateau.Gaillard.png would do better to have more accurate PD templates and at least descriptions of their authors and page numbers in the Dictionary. The FAC, however, does not need to be hold up by this. Jappalang (talk) 08:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments Support:

  • "He went with Philip II of France as each was wary of the other invading his territory in his absence."
    Suggest a change to "He went with Philip II of France as each was wary that the other might invade his territory in his absence."
    Done. Nev1 (talk) 16:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "... were drenched in a rain of blood ..."
    A "rain of blood"? Was this a metaphor for violence? Maybe some clarification is in order?
    This is literal (I was going to add a wiki-link, but Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on blood rain... yet; if Malleus or Parrot of Doom doesn't swoop on the article I intend to write it myself), and hopefully the following sentence ("While some of his advisers thought the rain was an evil omen, Richard was undeterred") makes that clear now. Nev1 (talk) 16:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
    Ah, I see. I hazard it is some sort of natural phenomenon by which red-stained water precipitates? The "omen" bit helps a bit, but readers might still wonder if it is a supernatural occurence. I would suggest enclosing "rain of blood" in quotations to make it distinct as taken from the original text. Of course, as you said, an article on rain of blood (even if a stub) would resolve the issue as well. Jappalang (talk) 01:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
    I've added the quotation marks. I've found what looks like an interesting article on occurrences of blood rain in medieval literature but haven't got round to reading it yet. The Red rain in Kerala is a modern equivalent (and apparantly you get red rain in Britain due to dust from the Sahara), but in the Middle Ages I suppose it must have been disconcerting and it probably did seem supernatural. Nev1 (talk) 01:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "On 6 April 1199, Richard died due to an infected arrow wound on his shoulder."
    A brief on what circumstance he received the wound is perhaps in order (name and link the battle or such).
    I've added that it the wound was sustained while besieging Chalus, but I'm wary of going into more detail as it didn't happen at Château-Gaillard. Nev1 (talk) 16:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "The curtain walls are studded by flanking towers, intended to provide enfilading fire, were cylindrical, typical of contemporary towers."
    A word might be missing from this sentence, or it requires breaking up. Either way, the current sentence structure "... are studded by flanking towers, ..., were cylindrical, ..." seems weird.
    I've split the sentence and rephrased it to read "The curtain walls are studded by flanking towers which were intended to provide enfilading fire; the towers were cylindrical, typical of contemporary towers". Nev1 (talk) 16:58, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Overall, a fine piece on a castle of the Lion. I am leaning to support on resolution of the above. Jappalang (talk) 08:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The "rain of blood" stuff is easy to take care of, so I will just throw my support in now. Jappalang (talk) 01:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose, not nearly comprehensive , and don't see how it can be resolved in this session. E.g. "In the 1990s, archaeological excavations were carried out at Château-Gaillard; in conjunction with the archaeological work, efforts were made to preserve the structure." Fascinating ... would expect a paragraph if this were a realistic FA candidate, but in fact that's my lot. # Innovations and layout is just awash with such assertions, that just hint at info but then move on. Fair enough for a B, not for an FA. Appears that most of the material on this castle is in the French language, but there's nothing in the main references section in that language; maybe that's the problem? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The most important French source not directly referenced in the article is Le Château-Gaillard et les fortresses des XIIe et XIIIe siècles by Pierre Héliot. Now an article dedicated to the site in a renowned journal on castles is essential. Although it is not directly referenced by Misplaced Pages's article, Allen Brown's English Castles uses the Héliot article so I don't see this as a big problem; it is represented in the article, albeit indirectly. As for the excavations in the 1990s, the conclusion was essentially that more work needs to be undertaken on the site as a whole.
I realise this might be an annoyance, but could you specifically list your problems with the innovations and layout section? Nev1 (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Stuff about the excavations should be in the article, and yes it is a problem if you don't utilise the main sources for a topic you wanna get to FA.
The section is question is just to fleet-worded on the lay-out aspect (it's ok on the innovations, though even this needs more context), jumping from topic to topic (in one para, from the gatehouse to a quote about how great the castle is). "Liddiard emphasises the importance of the throne room in the keep; one of only two rooms in the keep (the other was an antechamber), the throne would have sat in front of a large window" ... why is this the first time we hear about the throne-room, and in passing? "Château-Gaillard consists of three baileys – an inner, a middle, and an outer with the main entrance to the castle – and a keep, also called a donjon, in the inner-bailey" ... and that's all we hear of those. And so on. Ideally, I'd like to see sections for each part of the castle, even if short ones, descibing them physically, archaeologically, historically. and functionally. Not sentences interwoven with random quotes in a huge confused paragraph. Do you have the local site guide? This would be useful. For an FA, you'd want if not to print it thing off and take it there, at least to find it useful. This section of the article is basically useless except for the map and the citations. It looks like a guide that's done the history section, and then got cut off except for a rushed summary of the rest. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
We're going to have to agree to disagree about the sources; as an English castle Château-Gaillard is covered in English-language books which refer to the French-language sources. I would obviously like to have more French sources, but they are not indispensable as their subject material is covered by the other sources (apart from the stuff about the most recent excavations which doesn't seem to have filtered into English-langauge sources yet).
On reflection, the innovations section could do with some restructuring as it is perhaps confusing and disjointed. I agree that notes on function would be useful, however separate sections are excessive and would involve a lot of repetition. The castle was essentially built in one phase (one of the sources comments on this as unusual as most castles have several construction phases over their lifetime (I should have included that actually) so should be treated holistically. I don't think this needs to be confusing, it just needs some rearranging and explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have the site guide. I'll also see what else can be added on the excavations, but can't promise that a whole lot will be added. Anyway, that gives me something to do on Boxing Day! Nev1 (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I would obviously like to have more French sources, but they are not indispensable as their subject material is covered by the other sources
Obviously, you can't know that unless you access them. By not using them you not only limit the comprehensiveness of the article (that other sources use them is really another argument for using them, not against ), but you deprive yourself of the opportunity to know whether it is comprehensive. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I've added more on the excavations (and have asked someone to doubled check my interpretation of the French source) and reorganised the innovations and layout section. What do you think of the revised section, does it work? Nev1 (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
It's better, and I appreciate that you're making an effort to address my concerns, I really do. But it's still very far from comprehensive. I understand you have a problem getting and reading the sources, but if you can't use the main sources then you can't make the article comprehensive, and so you'd probably be better putting your energy into a topic where you can. The architecture section ("Innovations and layout") is still many times smaller than it should be. Even now the French article has more text and pics on this matter.
Incidentally, you might wanna double check some of your dates.
King Henry V of England besieged Château-Gaillard for six months before capturing it in 1418; the French retook the castle in 1420, but it soon fell into English hands again.
The French wiki gives December 9, which obviously may not be reliable, but this map in the The Cambridge illustrated atlas of warfare: the Middle Ages gives December 8 (if I'm reading it right). I myself have gotten dates wrong in articles because I write so many and make the occasional mistranscription. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of whether this article becomes an FA, I'll try to make it as complete as I can. It is currently the comprehensive English-language article on the castle available and provides useful links to anyone wanting more. As for dates, I double checked with the source used and it does state 1420 rather than December 1419, but I'm more inclined to believe that Cambridge history so I've changed it.
As for comprehensiveness, all I can is that the article should "neglect no major facts or details and place the subject in context". An article can be comprehensive without being complete. The most important events in the castle's history were its construction and the first siege, hence why there's so much detail. In the history's of Henry V of England's life, the fall of Château-Gaillard to the French is given barely a footnote. Could you suggest what more should be added to the innovations section? I'm not going to harass you to change your oppose as I think it's perfectly valid and one I should really have foreseen. I was perhaps lulled into complacency by the amount of information I was able to find in English. Thanks for the assistance and pointers, you've helped expand the article further than I thought realistic. Nev1 (talk) 13:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Just regarding this section, is it not that this is the date the English capture it? Just to thicken it, the ODNB says that Thomas Beaufort duke of Exeter "proceeded to reduce the strongholds to the west and north up to Dieppe and afterwards to invest Château Gaillard to the south, which surrendered to him on 23 September ". Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
You're right, as December 1419 was so close to 1420 I assumed the author of the encyclopedia entry where I found the info had made a slight mistake and that December 1419 referred to the French capture of the castle. The ODNB and the Cambridge Illustrated Atlas could both be correct, but this would make it a more significant error on the part of Kibler, unless he leaves out some details, which is quite possible. That pretty much underlines your earlier point; I have a feeling a French source might help here. Or it might not, but I can't be sure because of accessibility. I am wondering whether to withdraw this nomination; there's very little that can be confidently elaborated with regard to activity in the Hundred Years' War from the English-language sources. Nev1 (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Having access to quality sources means that you can verify for yourself claims made by secondary writers. The Cambridge History of Warfare isn't as far as these things go that reliable. Two authors covering a huge swathe of history like that ain't gonna compare with the specific academic monograph covering the Winter campaign of 1419 read alongside the printed versions of the primary sources used. So all you might need for this kind of thing is decent English sources. E.g. check the scholarly works on the 100 Years War and Henry V, look at what they say and check the footnotes to see how we know the castle was captured when. It might turn out that it hangs on an interpretation of a very difficult source or something. But if you don't won't know what is going on. Anyway, I was thinking you'd need the French sources for the architecture, for French local history matters, and so on. I wouldn't have thought you'd need them for English campaigns. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
That's a possibility I'll look into; I checked an Osprey book on the Hundred Years' War (admittedly not the most detailed volume on the subject), but it didn't have Château-Gaillard in the references. As far as the architecture is concerned, I'm confident that Allen Brown is enough. He explains the site in detail as an important study in the development of English castles; his ideas have mostly endured and he is still held in high regard. Liddiard then provides the less military side of the castle (ie: it's a symbol of power) and in his book summarises very well the newer ideas that castles were more than simply fortresses. Nev1 (talk) 00:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Once I disregarded the information from the encyclopaedia as useless, it was much easier to find information relating to the Hundred Years' War with the help of Ealdgyth as I stopped chasing the wrong facts. The new info agrees with the Atlas, but not the ODNB entry. There were no footnotes indicating how Château-Gaillard fell in five or six books on the Hundred Years' War (not all referenced in the article). And of course the moral of the story is to never trust what you read in an encyclopaedia ;-) Nev1 (talk) 15:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comments Support I've been to the castle and it is still an enormously impressive place, and this is a fine article, but one that I found a bit disappointing in places and I'm eager to see it improved some more so that I can support.--Jackyd101 (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • The lead needs looking at a bit more - I recommend developing it into two paragraphs with the additional information of: a brief description of the shape and main features of the castle, the exact length of time taken to built it and an explanation of why it was slighted. The natural break seems to be after "unusually short time".
  • "was on Crusade" - name and link the crusade in question.
  • Better. I do have something to add, which is that "He went with" is a slightly pedestrian way to describe the progression of two monarchs across Europe - "joined by" or "accompanied by" would both be slightly better options.--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "The site of Château-Gaillard was identified as a strategic position" - explain why?
  • Again better, but why was that town so special - Normandy was full of towns. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the river that made it so important, can you expand on this at all?
  • "Richard ordered the construction of the castle" - when?
  • Hmm, looks like I got the chronology a bit out of synch there and Richard was ordering the construction of the castle before he owned the manor. I've rejigged the paragraph slightly. Nev1 (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "base from which he" - use Richard instead of "he"
  • "however one of the party, William Longchamp, died along the way" - with what effect?
  • "(Grand Andely already existed)" - this place should have been mentioned earlier, back when the site was first discussed.
  • "In English "Château-Gaillard" means "castle saucy"" - why was it so named?
  • It's not clear; there's a little speculation that it might be because of political intrigue of because the castle was ostentatious, but nothing worth including. The problem is that it's an interesting tidbit, but can't really be expanded on. Nev1 (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "£15,000 to £20,000" - are there any estimates on what this is in modern terms?
  • "in retaliation for the massacre of Welsh mercenaries by the French" - what massacre? either make it "a massacre" or specific the nature of the event.
  • "Philip ordered a group of his men to look for a weak point in the castle." - did they find one? The text is not clear on this point (after all, a tower might be regarded as a strong point, not a weak one).
  • "both in the Hundred Year's War." - this was 150 years later, so its a bit like comparing the Crimean War with Iraq. Give it a bit more context by stating the time difference or find another example closer to the event.
  • Those are the two most famous examples of civilians being allowed to starve to death outside a town's defences and the ones used in the source, so I've mentioned the gap in time. Saying it's like comparing the Crimean War with the Gulf War (either one) isn't the best example because of the huge advances in technology which weren't evident between 1194 and the Hundred Years' War (both were fought with swords and arrows and the most significant advancement was the advent of gunpowder and cannons were unpredictable and expensive at the time of the 100 Years' War), but point taken. Nev1 (talk) 21:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • If that is what the sources use then fair enough, and it has been improved (although there were still surprising leaps in military technology during the medieval period).--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "Château-Gaillard was for a year" - was what?
  • Was this castle unaffected by the Hundred Years War between 1330 and 1419? It seems likely. If you have access to a library then I recommend the works of Jonathan Sumption, who has written three truly brilliant volumes of a history of the war up to 1399.
  • Early on in the Hundred Years' War, fighting was mostly in the west of France and around Calais, which the English secured under Edward III; under his son Richard II the English suffered losses and it wasn't until Henry V that Normandy was retaken. That's when Château-Gaillard came into the fighting, and although it held out a while it wasn't a whole lot of help as the rest of Normandy capitulated fairly easily. Nev1 (talk) 21:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I'll let this go for now, (although in fact there was extensive fighting in Normandy, Britanny, Poitou and Aquitaine during the first forty years of the war) but in a couple of weeks I'll be able to check my copies of Sumption and if they have anything to add I'll incorporate it into the article (if that is OK with you?).--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "Joan of Arc was captured on 30 May 1430 and a month later Château-Gaillard was recaptured by the English; by then the war was already turning in their favour." - it is not clear from the text what this event has to do with the castle.
  • "ordered the demolition of Château-Gaillard in 1599." - why?
  • "searching of an entrance" - do you mean "for"?
  • "completely rebuilt by Philip" - repetition of Philip
  • I think the article would improve with some restructuring. Many of the questions I had during the first half were actually answered in the second. If the construction section was made a second level heading, and the Innovations and layout moved beneath it, then a reader would be able to understand the shape of the castle, which would improve understanding of the history that follows.
  • The whole section could be moved earlier, although that would break up the historical narrative. Are there specific details that you think need to be mentioned earlier or is it the whole thing? The intent with the current layout is that casual readers will be interested in the history (Richard the Lionheart, the rain of blood, the siege, etc) but the layout will be less interesting. I thought that the history section could stand independently of the layout and innovations section, but if not moving the whole section earlier is an interesting option and sounds less laborious than moving individual sentences. Nev1 (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I take your point, and will think on it some more. As something of a military historian, I would naturally find it easier to understand the history if I know the technical specifications, but that is not the onyl viewpoint. I may have some additional suggestions here in the near future, but no action is required at the moment.--Jackyd101 (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "Oman 1991" - Oman certainly didn't write that in 1991 as he was long dead - give the actual date of publication, not the date that your copy was reprinted.


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:11, 16 January 2010 .

The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie

Nominator(s): ATC 16:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for the fourth time, as after getting more help from copyeditor User:Truthkeeper88, and a list of suggestions from User:Matthewedwards, and some copyediting of my own, I know think it meets FAC criteria. ATC 16:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Source comments What makes this reliable?

  • Include the publisher even for the webcasts when you cite them.
  • Ref 25 is pretty bare.
  • Ref 26's publisher needs italics.
  • If you're going to cite both work and publisher for some refs, then either do it for all or none. It's your call but we require uniformity.

RB88 (T) 04:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I will fix them. Also what do you mean by "bare" exactly. Could you reword what you meant, so I can understand? Thanx! ATC 00:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
NVM, I figured it out when I was fixing the other references - making the work/publisher in italics, additionally reverting all of the publisher to simply: work. ATC 21:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I did a lot of citation cleanup, but I don't think I got it all. Quite a few things were wrong. Some titles wrong, some wrong citation templates were used, the "work" parameter automatically italicizes, so additional italics aren't needed, and only periodicals, newspapers and journals are in italics, website should be listed as publisher so they aren't italicized. The citations should still be checked; I only went through quickly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Sandy. ATC, follow her advice and also answer to my query about the reliability of Newsblaze. Cheers. RB88 (T) 00:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
RB88: Yes, you're right NewsBlaze is not reliable. I was trying to find a reliable source to replace it with. I wanted to know if this is a press release, and if not so, is it reliable: http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2008/07/naked_brothers_band_to_visit_c.html. ATC 16:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh Thanx SandyGeorgia for the clean-up. I knew something didn't seem right with how I was fixing it and thought that was the problem. ATC 16:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
RB88: NVM, I figured out that it was a news source, I didn't know at first that it was Plain Dealer. ATC 02:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
There are some other questionable sources, including a least an editorial review on amazon.com; I saw some others while I was in there, but don't recall which. (It may have been something from sfgate.com that was editor submitted from a blog ... but I can't recall correctly.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I know what you're talking about. I'll get to that, but first I had a question about another source. http://www.top40-charts.com/news.php?nid=34898 for: The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie#Awards and reception with the sentence: it was placed in the top-10 spot on the Nielsen VideoScan children's non-theatrical DVD charts. I went to the Nielsen news release website and looked up top 10 releases in 2007 (on a PDF file) and the film was not listed. Top40 charts is the only source that comes up on Google (That and NewsBlaze). Should I not include it if a reliable source can not be found? ATC 03:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

<-- It doesn't matter if there aren't other sources. If the sources you use are unreliable then they and the material has to be removed. I suggest putting it in the talk page until a more suitable source has been found. Also, I think the Amazon editorial review is fine. The website, especially in the past, tried to provide more than just a store service. In fact, Metacritic often used its reviews. RB88 (T) 01:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I erased the source and left a message on the talk page. ATC 04:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
SandyGeorgia: I looked into the SFGate.com source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/PKH4UT9HO.DTL. It looks like a blog, but on top it says its by the San Francisco Chronicle, which is the top-selling newspaper company in Northern California. I don't understand what a blog would be doing on there, but it seems reliable and am not entirely sure if its a blog. ATC 07:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
It's OK by my book, as the article is merely a reproduction from the print edition of the newspaper (see the bottom of the page), and is written by one of the newspaper's regular contributing journalists. Steve  11:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh, okay. Did you go to the source itself, because it's in a blog format kind of. I guess other users should put there input too. ATC 18:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have been clearer; yes I did go to the page, where the source itself says, "This article appeared on page N - 40 of the San Francisco Chronicle". All the best, Steve  21:05, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh my bad there has been a misunderstanding. There were two SFGate sources on the Wiki article, I wasn't referring to that one. I was referring to this one about venture capitalist Tim Draper, Polly Draper's brother. ATC 00:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Image review: article uses a single image, qualified as fair-use, to identify its subject. The FUR only needed a little bit of tweaking, but is now fine. Jappalang (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose on the basis of the prose in the lead, which you'd think would have been given loving care.

  • "television movie"—is that an unclear, uncommon word? Is it useful to link it?
  • Please consider moving the comma from before "and" to before "who" in the opening sentence.
  • I find the semicolon boundaries bumpy in the second sentence, don't you?
  • There are three people called "Draper". I think the second para has to start with "The director" or her full name.
  • "decided to present the footage in the style of"—Maybe I'm too distant from the topic, but isn't this a little cumbersome? Why not straight and simple, like "The film is in the style of ..."?
  • "As" is a dangerous word in English: is it a "because" or a "during/while" as? I really don't know. I can't see how either would fit, actually.
  • "Based on the band her eldest son Nat had in preschool"—sounds like he had sex with them? Starting young ... I see after two seconds, though. There's a smoother way of putting it, yes?
  • Sorry, a little confused by your comment. At any rate, one solution is to tweak slightly & reword, which has been done. Another solution would be to remove the introductory clause if necessary. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • NYC, isn't it too famous to bother linking? Unless there's a more specific NYC-type link-target (I don't think so). And you've got a more specific location linked, anyway ... please see User:Tony1/Build your linking skills.
  • late 2005.
  • The network became the pilot?
  • The film premiered in the US on that date, yes? Better to say that, given that native anglophones inhabit at least seven countries.

Needs a team effort. Tony (talk) 11:42, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Has the rest been copy-edited? 18 days is a loooong time to be in this process. Tony (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
After your review of the lead a few days ago, I've been through, Steve's been through and ATC has been through. In my view, Steve's edits were the best, so I've just restored them. I'm happy to address specific issues you see. Honestly, I've spent a little too much time with this article and have lost some perspective, so a fresh set of eyes is welcome. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Truthkeeper88, it was amazing after seeing User:Steve's edits. It's exactly what the article needed! ATC 16:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I copyedited it again, but I suppose the contractions and other stuff came back again after Steve finished with it last time? I haven't checked the MOS or RS, but probably should have talked about RS before copyedits otherwise contents from questionable sources get reworked and then have to be copyedited again YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, do we know what area of Manhattan it was in? It could have been in upper East Side, or alternatively a slum in Harlem, or Chinatown YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Greenwich Village according to this. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Truthkeeper88 you're right but according the TimesCenter stage interview when a kid asked them where they lived (when they were taking questions from fans) they said "Manhattan" and I think it was Michael who said "Lower Manhattan". I think its important to respect their privacy regardless of what the news article said and just write "Lower Manhattan" or the Lower part of Manhattan. The JazzTimes article author/interviewer may of never asked about not saying what part of Manhattan they live in, so I don't think we want to be at risk for any legal privacy problems, as they're people and deserve there privacy. ATC 17:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 19:05, 12 January 2010 .

The Slip (album)

Nominator(s): Drewcifer (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


This article easily passed GA some months ago, and now I think it's ready for the next step. Any comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks! Drewcifer (talk) 19:12, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Media review: Three images:

  • Usage: Good, standard.
  • Rationale: Good.
  • Alt text: Good.
  • License: CC-by-SA-2.0. Verified.
  • Quality: Professional.
  • Alt text: Missing.
  • Usage: Good. Exemplifies style of individual artwork created for each album track, which is significantly different from album cover art; sourced critical commentary on art in main text.
  • Rationale: Good.
  • Alt text: Good.—DCGeist (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the image review. I've fixed the missing alt text on the second image. Drewcifer (talk) 05:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment Something about the lead strikes me as off, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Could probably be rearranged. I will say that you should clarify that the physical edition of the album was not free. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:38, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Further comments Prose could use some outside eyes. The second paragraph of the lead uses "critics" repeatedly, and the sentence "Trent Reznor posted on the official Nine Inch Nails website on April 21, 2008 a post saying "2 weeks!", echoing a similar tactic employed to foreshadow the release of the band's previous album, Ghosts I–IV earlier the same year" is a run-on mess. These are just two examples. Please copyedit thoroughly. Also, it worries me that the "Music and lyrics" section is primarily drawn from reviews. Did no one interview Reznor or any of the other creative minds working on the album about how the music was constructed. I know Reznor's a big gearhead and will go on about what equipment he used (for example, I have a 1994 Guitar World article where Reznor gets very detailed about what computer equipment he used on The Downward Spiral and how he arranged songs. Did Reznor have a general aesthetic in mind? Are there recurring motifs? WesleyDodds (talk) 08:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I've addressed the first few, I think. As for the amount of detail the music section goes into, I beefed it up a little teeny bit, but there isn't a whole lot to go off of. There's plenty of interviews and general press surrounding NIN around that time, but due to a perfect storm of more interesting circumstances (Reznor's split with Interscope, his experiments with distribution methods, NIN quitting touring, Reznor getting married, some stupid hubub about him deleting his Twitter account, the impending Year Zero miniseries, etc, etc.) and the fact that the album was "quickly assembled" and released, none of the sources actually get around to going into much detail about the music of The Slip. Neither does Reznor, since he's been asked every question but. So unfortunately that just doesn't exist, or at least I've been unable to find it. I'll contact my usual sources to see if they can lead me down the right path, but I'm certain I've included everything possible as it is. Drewcifer (talk) 09:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Source comments What makes these reliable? I'm leaving these for editors to decide for themselves. I'm neutral this time, can't make my mind up fully either way. RB88 (T) 22:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

  • A link to The NIN Hotline is provided on the official NIN website under the category "News and Information". link. Also, during the whole Year Zero ARG, many news agencies used The NIN Hotline as a source for information (link, for example). Drewcifer (talk) 16:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Links confirm it's a fansite, which is not allowed. See Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches. RB88 (T) 22:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
      • "Is not allowed" is a little strong. Your link says it should be questioned; fair enough. I think WP:RS trumps a signpost anyways. So, from WP:RS: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." So in other words, even a "fan site" can be considered WP:RS if their "work" has been published by other sources considered WP:RS. Drewcifer (talk) 02:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Then you have yet to provide an RS source that has published their work. The first link merely links it while the other is a website user's blog entries. Also, by convention round these parts, the signpost takes precedence and is much stronger in wording as we are at FAC. Don't be surprised to see even the third-party RS sources being questioned. RB88 (T) 02:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Matt Dunphy (who runs the NINHotline) has been quoted by USA Today (link). In this case I'd call him the "established expert" they're drawing from. Rolling Stone also quoted the hotline (link). Dunphy has also been interviewed by Kevin and Bean on LA radio, but there's no link to that, so you'll just have to believe me on that one. Drewcifer (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Vimeo isn't necessarily a reliable source, but Reznor himself surely is. Drewcifer (talk) 16:57, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
    • How do we know the channel is Reznor's? RB88 (T) 22:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
      • The channel isn't Reznor's, but it's an interview with Reznor. Hence, the words are coming from his own mouth. Drewcifer (talk) 02:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Then how do we know this user has permission to post this video on vimeo? Cite the video where it came from, e.g. radio, TV, press pack etc., without a link. RB88 (T) 02:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
          • The video wasn't "from" anything, besides this exact vimeo link. NIN fans organized themselves on NIN forums echoingthesound.com, and formed these questions to be asked to Reznor, by a member of the community, over a webcast/posted video. The account that uploaded the video (Questions For Trent) uploaded only this video for this purpose. Drewcifer (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Go through the refs and put in italics the names of print media.
  • I'm not sure if I follow you on this one. I went through the refs again, and everything seems in order. Print sources (Cleveland Free Times, Rolling Stone, etc) are all italicized, and online-only sources (Allmusic, Pitchfork, etc) are all un-italicized. Are there specific refs that looked wrong to you? Drewcifer (talk) 04:16, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Remove italics from online-only publishers.
  • Some refs need the publisher added for uniformity with the rest. Or remove all the corporation publishers from the rest. Your call.
  • Added a few, but the corporation publishers don't apply across the board, so there's a few still missing. Namely, in some cases (Pitchfork for example), its basically self-published, so it would be the same name repeated. Same with ABC News. Drewcifer (talk) 04:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

RB88 (T) 16:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  • A few quick comments An interesting read. Allmusic is published by "Rovi Corporation" after "Macrovision" changed its name last July. In the lead, The Slip is described as the "eighth major album". Is that eighth studio album? Also in the lead, you state that the physical release was not free but this isn't specified in the body of the article. Plus, I have never been a fan of references in the lead. The quotation needs citing but the other facts are surely cited later in the article. -- EA Swyer Contributions 01:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments; all have been addressed, I believe. Drewcifer (talk) 02:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:24, 12 January 2010 .

Video Killed the Radio Star

Nominator(s): Crea (talk) 04:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because it meets all of the FA criteria Crea (talk) 04:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - This may make an excellent FA at some point, but as it stands it fails on sourcing. Bare urls in the references, sections lacking sourcing and unreliable sources. Suggest withdrawing and seeking a Peer Review. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. Agree that a peer review would help. Also, please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 04:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, suggest withdraw Some non-free content and grammar issues, along with those above.

  • For next time (because it really should be withdrawn or failed this time), make sure that primary article editors know you have nominated the article.
  • Why is that specific sample of the song used? It should be used near prose where elements of that part are interpreted, praised, or criticized by third-party sources—non-free media like that can't easily be justified in the infobox.
  • What justifies the additional album cover (for the PUSA version)?
  • "on the 7 September 1979"—spot the problem word. This major error is in the highly visible lead, so the rest of the text is really not worth my check.

Expand the article, then seek other editors to review and copyedit it. There are full view sources on Google Books, uncited in the article, that may help expand it and actually make it comprehensive (as required by the criteria). For now, though, withdraw and expand it free of the hurries and worries of FAC. --an odd name 09:29, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose, definitely withdraw Not ready by any stretch of the imagination. I'd like to remind people that this is not GAN and has much stricter, thorough criteria which should be read properly. That's not to say that it couldn't be an FA in the future after some TLC and a PR. RB88 (T) 01:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:24, 12 January 2010 .

Alien Nation (film)

Nominator(s): Peetric (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because its a cult Sci-fi classic which spawned a number of TV Movie sequels plus a popular TV Series. I believe the article is well written, has an appropriate structure and is concise with info for its length. It appears to meet the requirements. Peetric (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment Peetric, this is unlikely to pass as it stands, due to such issues as the lack of a proper lede, and problems with sourcing. Have you looked at the Featured Articles about movies at WP:FA? We are not really set up here to educate you in getting the article into shape to be a FA. Can I suggest you take it to WP:PR instead?--Wehwalt (talk) 03:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment. Agree that it needs quite a bit of work. Also, the lead image needs alt text; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 04:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Not that this might not make an excellent FA at some point, but it falls far short of the mark as it stands now. Unsourced sections, references lacking needed data for WP:V and an underdeveloped lead. Strongly suggest taking the above advice. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


RESPONSE Hi....ok, well I tried to lengthen and develop that introduction along with some other sections. I will continue to try to work out those issues. But that WP:ALT text; I'm not sure how to apply that tag!! ... lOl ... Can someone help on that??? Peetric - 20:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Eubuildes is the man when it comes to the mysteries of ALT text. Perhaps ask him on his talk page? Also, are you sure you wouldn't rather go to Peer Review? That is more set up to give detailed feedback on a continuing basis.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


Oh, I think there's a shot it could make the cut without Peer Review. As far as the Alt Text is concerned, maybe I'll do that. Or perhaps Mr. Eubuildes will come back and view this page again for responses. Peetric - 22:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, suggest withdraw by an odd name—I disagree that "it could make the cut without Peer Review". It seems fairly well-organized, but is weak on content.

  • Two dab links. Replace them with more specific article links to avoid confusing readers.
  • No dead external links—good. Add titles to the links, though—if they're dead, their titles, authors, and publishers will give us an idea of their provenance and reliability.
  • IMDb is not very reliable—replace whenever possible. Capitalize it consistently, too ("iMDB"?).
  • Avoid original research. The "See also" links are better off in the article, where they can be explained. As they are, I had to think about whether someone was relating the film to the other subjects by their own metric, instead of those of sources.
  • Dates are consistent Month Day, Year style—good. Try to find a specific date for that Siskel review though ("circa 1988" seems a bit too new to lack a full date).
    • Speaking of Siskel, avoid "The late". (Do we call the philosopher "The late Plato"?) Siskel gave the review, whether he died later or not; we can check the article to see if he died, and whether he has is not relevant for this article because he lived to review the film.

For expansion ideas, consider listening to DVD commentary (if available), reading longer SF film articles like Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and consulting WikiProject Films and WikiProject Science Fiction. Google Books has some full-view references that mention the film. Primary sources are acceptable for a few facts when other sources are not available. --an odd name 22:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


Thanks for the advice. I've just made and improved on many of those issues, and corrected them in the article. I will continue working on it, by trying to watch the DVD commentary for more insight. Appreciate it. Peetric - 23:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose, suggest withdraw Peetric, well done for being proactive and trying to improve this, but this is not the process you want for extensive advice. Go to PR for that. Here, articles should be nearly perfect when they arrive for editors to tweak to near-complete perfection. RB88 (T) 01:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


: RESPONSE ........lOl.......I really think the article has been tweaked to near perfection. Its like trying to squeeze a glass of orange juice from an orange peel. This article certainly doesn't contain rich content like say a movie such as Avatar, but its pretty concise for what it has. The movie is 22 years old, and distinct info on it is hard to come by. I won't be surprised if this article makes it to being "Featured". Peetric - 2:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Peetric, while I agree that it is easier to do a more recent movie than an older one, we don't lower the standards for older ones. You've already picked up three opposes, and I did not oppose because I don't want to bite the newbies, and you've said that you probably won't make major changes. This isn't going to pass. When it is archived, I really suggest that you take it to peer review or ask for help at the films wikiproject.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Image review: Single copyrighted poster used as identifying shot; fair use rationale could be refined to state why this poster should be the one instead of another. Furthermore, copyright owners are not identified although refered to. Jappalang (talk) 03:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, strongly suggest withdrawal: Although Peetric has added an amount of content to the article, it might not not be substantial enough to overwhelmingly make him the most significant contributor. Have the other major contributors been contacted (although seeing the state of the article before Peetric touched it, it might not matter.)? Nonetheless, the article lists only 10 references: 3 of which are IMDb (major no-no in most cases), 1 from Box-Office Mojo, and the rest reviews. It ignores the literature out there (see this Google search) that could help to flesh out the background, conception, themes, and criticisms/commentaries on this film. Needless to say, this fails WP:WIAFA 1(b) & 1(c)—comprehensiveness and well-researched. Furthermore, sources are missing for several sentences/paragraphs, again failing 1(c). Jappalang (talk) 03:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: This article has quite a few problems, even without extra information out there. It ignores MOS:FILM, WP:SLASH, and several sections including Plot, Box Office, here are not sourced. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:24, 12 January 2010 .

I Dreamed a Dream (album)

Nominator(s): DreamNight (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because i think it already is ready, with sections containing enough material, enough refs and a good structure. DreamNight (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose — I disagree, it is nowhere near ready. The prose is deplorable, it's full of redundancy and poor grammar. There is "fastest selling" three times in one sentence, and this is the third sentence of the Lead. Then we have "biggest selling" first without a hyphen and then, two sentences later, with one. And this is a paradigm of illogical flow, "In 2010, during its first week, I Dreamed a Dream sold more than 329,000 copies worldwide, keeping in the first position again and being the best-selling album in 2010 to date, beating Lady Gaga's The Fame Monster, the second best-selling album with 252,000 sold copies". Then we have slang to contend with "ended up" means "came" or even "achieved". There is "viewed" instead of "watched" and she has not "refused to change her image"— quite the opposite from what I have seen. This nomination is grossly premature and I suggest withdrawing it. I like Susan Boyle—but this article is not even close to a Good Article, let alone a Featured one. I know it is only January 10, but this must be the most poorly prepared FAC this year. Graham Colm 21:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose I agree with Graham that the article is not yet ready. I don't think it would take much to get it there, but there are problems with punctuation, grammar, prose, image licensing for the X-Factor picture, making it overall better to withdraw the nomination, get a peer review and some copy edits and take it to GA first. --Moni3 (talk) 00:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment. Please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 03:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - I would suggest nominating for good article status, but this article still new, no way near yet featured content quality. Candyo32 (talk) 20:55, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, suggest withdrawal Per Graham. RB88 (T) 01:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose for NFCC non-compliance: While the copyrighted album cover can serve as the identifying shot under fair use, the screenshot of Boyle on X-Factor does not seem to serve any purpose to help understand significant critical commentary. In other words, File:Susan X Factor.jpg is not justifiable under WP:NFCC. Jappalang (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:24, 12 January 2010 .

Apolo Anton Ohno

Nominator(s): oncamera 00:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is ready for the next step after having passed its Good Article Nomination. The article has been also been through a peer-review. The issues raised in both of those have been addressed. The article is about an American Winter Olympian and I feel it does a fine job of covering his career. oncamera 00:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Alt text is present (thanks) but it needs some work. Most of the alt text repeats what is in the caption (see WP:ALT#Repetition) or gives details that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the image (see WP:ALT#Verifiability). Please reword it to fix these two problems. For example, in the first alt text entry "Apolo Anton Ohno standing atop the podium wearing his gold medal at the Men's 500 meters medal ceremony at the 2006 Winter Olympics.", only the phrase "gold medal" should be in the alt text. Please see WP:ALT for more about alt text. Eubulides (talk) 02:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for making clearer what should be included in the alt tags for the images. I have made adjustments to them! I hope they are better suited now, oncamera 03:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Much better, thanks. The only two phrases that still have problems are "Ohno" and "The medal ceremony took place in the middle of the ice-rink so", as neither of these phrases are obvious to a non-expert who can see only the images. Would you please remove and/or remove them too? Eubulides (talk) 03:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Went ahead and removed those two phrases! Maybe it reads better now, oncamera 03:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, that's much better. I tweaked the first phrase to turn it into a sentence. It looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 17:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for remedying that! oncamera 04:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I substituted a template in the comment above to avoid future changes. --an odd name 11:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • No dab links or dead external links—good.
  • Dates are consistent Month Day, Year in prose and ISO style in refs—good.
  • Avoid abbreviations like "pbk" unless they are common, as they complicate screen reading (see WP:ACCESS).
  • Featured articles have prose that is "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Repetitive prose, like the following, is not of that standard—check for any such repetition throughout:
    • "Ohno continued to perform well in the sport after the 2002 Winter Games. Ohno declined to participate in a 2003 World Cup short-track event in Korea for security reasons. However, despite the absence, he successfully defended his World Cup title during the 2003 season." (Replace the second "Ohno", remove the "However")
    • Another one: "A large number of e-mails protesting the race results crashed the Olympic Committee's email server, and also thousands of accusatory letters, many of which contained death threats, were sent to Ohno and the committee." ("and also"?)
  • Is the name "Apolo" related to, for example, "Apollo"?

--an odd name 14:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your concerns. I went ahead and remove the text (pbk), added info/source for the origins of his name (Apo=to steer away, lo=watch out, here he comes). I also went through the article and made edits to the repetitive nature of the prose. I hope I have addressed the issues accordingly, oncamera 04:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. It's looking better. --an odd name 11:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments -
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • The Ohno ref (current ref 5) needs page numbers per WP:V, it's 153 pages. Also, this is aimed for a youth audience, is it really the best quality source? World Cat listing.
  • Current ref 11 (Claiborne..) lacks a publisher
  • Current refs 42 and 43 (2009 ISU World...) lack publishers.
  • Current ref 52 (Balta..) lacks publisher
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your concerns. I went through and added a work or publisher to current references 11, 42, 43, 52. The biography has information where Ohno talks about his childhood and his father, and while some of the statements can be cited using an online source, other statements will still need the book. I will go back and make those edits. The World Short Track site: it is difficult finding an official ISU results page for seasons before 2007. But, I'll look again for news articles to replace those possibly unreliable source (current refs 31, 32). Replaced former refs 31 and 32 with news articles from USA Today and the Seattle Times. oncamera 01:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Current ref 1 is still being worked on? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
I changed current ref 1 to a new one... Still working on changing the book references, I added the page numbers to the book source and changed the order of header hierarchy per WP:Layout. oncamera 01:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Leaving the last one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Support I reviewed this article for GA, so I don't have much say here, but I wanted to express my support, anyway. This is an interesting article about an intriguing subject. There has been a great deal of improvement since its GAN, although it needs very little to be promoted to FA. I also think that the topic is timely, with the upcoming 2010 Olympics. It would be fitting for Ohno's bio to be TFA while he's in Vancouver, making still more history. A note about DWTS chart: although I raised the issue at GAN, I have no problem with it as it stands. It's common knowledge, like Ohno's other sports stats and follows the convention of articles about other athletes. Thanks, --Christine (talk) 12:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments:

  • "He also competed in and won the reality TV show Dancing with the Stars in 2007."
    Quite disjarring to see this as the second sentence of the very first paragraph. It is nowhere as significant as his athletic achievements, and in my view lowers the expectation of a serious biography. I very much doubt a TV reality program is going to be a serious aspect of his life.
  • "The 13-year-old Ohno was the youngest skater ..."
    "At 13 years of age, Ohno was the youngest skater ..."
  • "He was a medalist in two events with controversy associated with the results."
    "He won medals/was a medallist in two controversial events."?
  • There appears to be some secondary analysis of Ohno's Salt Lake 2002 controversy. Why is it not used as a source?
  • What are the thoughts of the Koreans toward Ohno? Is it just purely indignation over "being robbed" or are they viewing it as a matter of dishonesty?

Is there some other aspect of his life other than ice skating? Forgetting the reality show, did he help out charities, contribute to some social cause, or such? (Apparently, he did participate in some fundraising.) Did he set up a company or go into a notable business venture? As a celebrity, what other high publicity events was he involved with? Was he recognized by communities or organizations for something? Did he have any impact on a particular community? What are his thoughts, ambitions, ideals (which sometimes are evidenced in training regimes or interviews during injuries)? Is he interested in anything other than sports? Much is a chronicle of his sporting events, but nothing over his thoughts and actions over his victories and failures in his early years. Perhaps no reliable material that covered it, but surely some of the more serious publications on Ohno should be used for this article than relying on newspaper reports of the races? It seems probable secondary commentary or analysis of Ohno's character/performance might be missing, giving me concerns over the comprehensiveness of this article. Jappalang (talk) 02:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

From his point of view, he probably finds being on the reality show somewhat significant, but not in comparison with his athletic career, as they are two different things. On his Twitter, his stint on DWTS is listed second. I have moved it down in the opening... I clarified and copyedited the other two sentences. I didn't know that source on his Salt Lake controversy existed and it doesn't load in my browser (neither does the other Google source). Is there pertinent information there lacking in the section? And I cannot speculate on the thoughts of Koreans who were or were not hostile against Ohno. I would rather keep a neutral point of view here and stick to what happened and usage of quotes of fellow skaters (avoiding weasel words). And for the last part, I'll look into adding significant charities or sponsorships. I'm not sure about adding details about what his favorite hobbies or even where to add in his thoughts on his ambitions without sounding like fancruft. Maybe you can link me to a comparable article for reference? Thank you for your concerns, oncamera 03:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
When I wrote "serious aspect of his life", I am referring to how the world sees him, not himself. He might see himself as a twinkle toe, but the world at large remembers him more as a fleet of foot skater. On Korean reaction, I am pretty sure as well that there are Korean (and other Asian) sources just as reliable, reporting on their community's perception and giving serious commentary/editorial on the incidents. It is not a matter of NPOV (which do not let you strike out reliable sources) but comprehensiveness; if there are serious and respectable commentaries over this incident, they should be reported. As for books, criteria 1c asks for "high-quality reliable sources" and I believe a book from a respectable publisher beats out newspaper articles most of the time. I am not so particularly hard up on this point if these sources are out of your reach (library or otherwise) or if they do not cover what is written here. For other articles that might serve as references, I consider Jada Pinkett Smith's FAC version, which failed, and Ayumi Hamasaki's, which passed, as quite comprehensive on the persons themselves. Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
I added a Philanthropy and sponsors section. Changed the losses to loss. What serious aspect of his life do you want? He hasn't started any foundations, controversies he's been involved with have been on ice, isn't married, no kids, etc. He's basically studies business ongoing at the University of Colorado since his sport/training takes up a considerable amount of his time. As for the Korean reaction, it's noted how they reacted: how can I know what were the possible motives or find a reliable/verifiable source to this? There is commentary from the skaters who were in the race; each with something different to say. And the quote by Ohno also explains. Also, I don't know enough Korean and wouldn't trust Google Translator to help source a possible featured article per WP:NONENG. Have you seen the talkpage for this article? The Korean stuff has been the main topic. Anyway, I understand what you're saying about "high-quality reliable sources" but that shouldn't mean I can't use news articles if I can't find the books you listed. Finally, it would be more helpful to me if you could find comparable articles that are about athletes (keep in mind Ohno's sport isn't as popular as others)... oncamera 04:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe that (Ohno's relative obscurity in non-sporting affairs) is the problem here. I think the issue of "no sources for such information" vs "still not comprehensive" has been fought over FACs several times. I am not going to bring it up here, I am just commenting that the article gives me a very limited picture of this athlete. Generally, a biography should tell who the subject is, how he or she thinks, what achievements and legacy he or she has, etc.
Thus, the additions of his philanthropic and commercial efforts are appreciated. I think the prose for those sections need to be improved a bit, and possibly reliable comments for them (or his motivation behind these activities) found to make them less of a list.
Back to the Korean side of events, the project is a collaborative effort, and I have seen several Korean-English capable editors around. They might be able to help with translating those articles. Neither WP:NONENG nor the project forbids foreign sources ("sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available."). If they are reliable, they should be included. If there are no such sources, then one cannot be faulted for not including them. Jappalang (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I happened to click on the link showing Ohno-related books on Google. There are four Ohno biographies listed on the first page, but all of them are listed as juvenile non-fiction. As such, I'm not convinced that they meet the criteria for high-quality reliable sources. The first one I see is an autobiography (should be handled cautiously), and it's hard to tell if the others are serious works. They certainly aren't like the sports law book also linked above. That only applies to the four books I saw on the first page; there may be others in later search pages that would be better for our purposes. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
In regards to the autobiography used, it was to source information about his early life. I also used/added an online source from a newspaper to those sections. And, I used the biography source for some of his early achievements. It can be very different to find a non-pay-per-view source for speedskating events prior to 2000 (etc), since the International Skating Union hasn't been diligent with updating it's site for scores/results.see? I'm not sure about the other books on Google (doesn't load for me) or if they would provide new information that is pertinent. oncamera 18:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Using an autobiography for early life information that can't be found in other sources should be all right. I'm just saying that you shouldn't generally make a habit of using juvenile books, especially if better references are avaliable. I don't know if that's the case for this particular article, though. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:21, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Done. That link was on a Dancing with the Stars template. oncamera 00:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:26, 10 January 2010 .

Steampunk

Nominator(s): IzzyReal (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because it is an excellent article that displays the literary sub-genre/subculture in an understandable and encyclopedic way. IzzyReal (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Support I enjoyed reading that. I made a few tweaks, hope you like them, if not its a Wiki. There's a citation needed still to sort out and some of the pictures still need alt text. Also Girl Genius is set in Europe, though not quite our Europe. Some terms might need linking because they have differing meanings in English and American English eg should the coat link to Tail coat or Frock coat? ϢereSpielChequers 23:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments by an odd name—mainly technical, but I think this machine needs some oil.

  • Have you consulted major editors of the article, or checked if they are inactive? See the candidates page: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination." Maybe they still need to find more sources, or have some other reason not to feature.
  • Two dab links that should be replaced with specific article links. No dead external links—good.
  • Some images still need alt text, just in case.
  • In "External links": "The Nova Albion Steampunk Exhibition: An annual gathering for steampunks, held in the San Francisco Bay Area. May be the first dedicated Steampunk convention in the United States."—If this is the first such, this should be mentioned in the article with a citation.
  • Magazine refs (like ref 22) should be as specific as possible (volume, month or season, article name and author, etc.). Publishers should be specified for all refs. I'm especially concerned about the etheremporium links—if they are wikis open to outside edits, those edits might not be fact-checked and the info might not be reliable.
  • Ref dates are mainly ISO style. Switch other ref dates to that format. Prose dates appear to be Month Day, Year.

It makes me think of gears, games, and Salma Hayek, so it's not all bad. :) --an odd name 23:27, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - References are a mess, bare links, lack of page numbers, some printed sources lacking titles and authors for verifiability, use of unreliable sources (including but not exhaustive list: http://www.bigredhair.com/boilerplate/bp.report.html, http://www.zone-sf.com/difengine.html, http://voyagesextraordinaires.blogspot.com/2008/08/history-of-steampunk.html, http://steampunkworkshop.com/, http://kineticsteamworks.org/) and links to possible copyright violations (http://www.bigredhair.com/boilerplate/bp.report.html). Ealdgyth - Talk 15:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:26, 10 January 2010 .

Dow Jones Industrial Average

Nominator(s): Fabledd (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because... its quite informative and gramatically correct. Fabledd (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, suggest withdraw by an odd name—thanks for joining Misplaced Pages (and welcome!), but I don't think this is up to the criteria.

  • Have you consulted major editors of the article, or checked if they are inactive? See the candidates page: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination." Maybe they still need to find more sources, or have some other reason not to feature.
  • "History" needs lots of attention:
    • There's lots of what I and others here call "proseline"—sentences and paragraphs that are just "On date, event." The criteria demand "engaging, even brilliant" prose "of a professional standard", and I bet a lot of the events can be tightened into flowing prose. Point-by-point lists are boring, and people coming here from the Main Page want to be educated, not sedated.
    • What can't be tightened can probably be divided into more sections with headings so readers can get to the main historical ideas.
  • Recently, alternate text has become a requirement for images in featured articles. If the graphs don't load, or readers can't see the image for other reasons, "alt text" gives an idea of the missing visuals. There's none for the graphs here; they may need some.

More comments pertaining to the lead and first section alone, although I still oppose and think the whole page needs more work than the 59-page FAC backlog allows (added on 05:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)):

  • The first lead paragraph was huge. I tried to rearrange the lead in general, but I think it needs more word-trimming and a third eye.
  • "From a starting point of under 50 in the late 1890s to a high reached above 14,000 in the late 2000s, the Dow rises periodically through the decades with corrections along the way eventually settling in the mid-10,000 range."—Split into more sentences, and replace "correction". Past tense might be better.
  • What makes the graphs' sources reliable?
  • Explain what the Dow is in the body before the company chart. (I would've just moved History if it wasn't bloated.) Pretend that the lead doesn't exist (that's just a short form of the whole article).
  • The index doesn't consist of the companies (the Dow is not a conglomerate itself). It tracks their stock prices. Correct this throughout.

If you still want the Dow to be featured, I suggest you go to the talk pages of the top editors in the "major editors" link, and (if they haven't "retired" or gone on "wikibreak") talk with them about how to improve it. If they aren't available, you can request peer review for more detailed suggestions (I listed a few problems, but there may be many more). Good luck. --an odd name 02:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I've made numerous contributions to this page, and I would say I think the article is a fairly good contender for being featured. I understand what your saying as far as "tightening" certain parts within the History Section; but its not what it seems. Basically, the subject matter may appear to be oversaturated and perhaps dull when mentioning certain timelines and specific dollar closing prices, but thats really just the nature of the subject matter. Alot of people find those additions to the article, interesting. If the Dow closes at a 5-Year low and then within 3 months it goes up 40%, its something that many readers find important and informative to compare the exact pricing and how financially relevant that may be. And as far as summaries within the History Section go; its really something that has to do with readily available information. The section of the 1930s or the 1950s is far smaller than the 1990s and 2000s sections. Basically, we certainly know more and have more verifiable and accurate financial information in the last 10 years than we had 50 years ago. We could just delete alot of the details throughout the 90s and 00s, but it would lessen the integrity of the important information we have documented. The bottom line is, its well written, its informative, the quality of the article is alot higher than others and its really not boring to read about price corrections just like it isn't when you read the wall street journal. I don't think the article should be disqualified for differing points of view surrounding the History Section. Oh and by the way, those graphs are in a constant state of being updated. They are large and take time to formulate. I'm interested in hearing all opinions. RT6543 3:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

There's certainly no shortage of information on the DJIA from 50 or even 75 years ago. Newspapers have been tracking it religiously for decades. The sections on recent decades are longer people editors have been using this section of the article for play-by-play updates. Every time there is a significant move in the index someone will add a bullet. With the traffic this article gets, this is not unexpected. The editors need to be doing a better job of summarizing the data that is no longer new. For example, the Feb-2007 correction may have seemed like a big deal at the time, but it didn't turn out to be that big a deal compared to corrections that would come later (or compared to dozens of corrections that preceded it) yet it still is represented by a sizable bullet point.DavidRF (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • RESPONSE I noticed that it is a major problem. Everytime the Dow goes up 220 points or goes down 301 points; we don't need a user to add a daily price bullet update. There's enough examples in the page already. If certain updates look ridiculous, then its justified to delete them. Perhaps you are correct with the information from 50 years ago. However, there are 2 problems with it. Number one, they hard to get a hold of and not necessarily available through on-line sources over the internet. You'd have to go to a public library and dig up a photocopy of a 45-year old newspaper edition to get every fact on a related financial story or political event that influenced the Dow's movement on that day. Problem number 2; the page would be way too long if every decade summary is the same length like the 2000s decade. I think then, we'd be over-doing it. RT6543 5:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
My point was we were definitely overdoing it with recent eras, not that we should expand previous eras. I disagree that previous eras would be hard to find, though. Of course, we wouldn't want the daily play-by-play, but see Template:US recessions and see that there's a dip in the DJIA just before at or just before almost every single one of those. On a macro-level, details of bear/bull markets are pretty easy to find. There should be plenty of economics history books out there. But I agree those details are not necessary here. Details should be left for the articles such as those in Template:US recessions. That said, the play-by-play of previous decades in the DJIA article oddly focuses on stuff that had relatively little effect on the market (e.g bay of pigs, columbian war, civil rights movement, etc) and doesn't focus enough on the state of the economy. A ton of obscure wars are mentioned, but the Panic of 1907 isn't mentioned at all. Its the history of the market and not the history of the century. Something we could improve.DavidRF (talk) 05:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


  • Answer. Ok, I did my best to correct that issue with WP:ALT. RT6543 3:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
A little too much commentary in the alt-text now, in my opinion. I understand its a tough problem, though. Mainly these plots are just historical traces of the index. The graphs for 1987 and 2001 are zoomed in pretty tight. Hard to say too much else besides "index dropped X%". Then, the 100+ year graph has so much information in it... entire articles are written on each dip in the index. You can't really claim that its "settled" now any more than it was "settled" in the late-60s and 70s. Captions shouldn't be controversial. What do people expect for alt-text captions on images like this?DavidRF (talk) 03:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


  • ADDITIONAL RESPONSE Haha Ha.....Well, I think you summed it up best when you said "A little too much commentary". I understand what you mean on the 100-year pic. Its pretty much impossible to sum up every microscopic detail in a 3 1/2 line paragraph. I tried my best. As far as settling in the 10,000 range; I meant to somehow sum it up within the closing segment of the yearly chart. In the last 12 or so years, we've been around the 10,000 area. But it is also true that perhaps for a 12-year span, between the late 1960s and early 1980s, the Dow settled in the 1,000 range. I just meant were it settled at in recent times. Anyhow, as a whole, I think those segments are much improved from before. For the most part, its fairly concise in describing the movement of those graphs to wiki users who can't see it. RT6543 4:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I understand the difficulty, but we might want to pare some of the conclusions back a bit and I ask the mods here what they'd reasonably expect to see as alt-text for some of those. Commentary is really best left for the accompanying text. Half of the charts are just "check out the bear market" or "look, market dropped sharply here". There's not much more to be said about them. What the exact values at the top and bottom are usually not the point of the graph.DavidRF (talk) 05:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the alt text should be relatively brief (see WP:ALT#Brevity) and should focus on the gists of the graphs rather than unimportant details (see WP:ALT#Essence; in particular WP:ALT#Diagrams). The previous comments seem to be saying that alt text has been added, but this is incorrect: none of the images currently have alt text. Please see WP:ALT for what alt text is, and how to add it; and please click on the "alt text" button in the toolbox at the upper right of this review page to check the alt text once it's added. Eubulides (talk) 08:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
They expanded captions instead of adding alt attributes. I moved some text to new alts, but they need work. --an odd name 08:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Strong oppose: This article has potential, but FAC should not used as an article development resource. There are other means for this, either talkpage discussion or, specifically, Peer Review. It is the nominator's responsibility to check that an article accords with FA criteria before bringing it here; saying "its quite informative and gramatically correct" is an inadequate reason for nominating. The article should be withdrawn without delay. Should it come to peer review I would highlight two particular areas for attention:

  • Prose: Ambiguous/misleading sentences, e.g. from the lead "It is an index that shows how certain large, publicly-owned companies based in the United States have traded during a standard trading session in the stock market"; jargonistic, e.g. "Within the equities world, asset manager SSgA State Street Global Advisors, offers a family of ETFs the SPDRs...etc"; generally inaccessible prose (too many examples to list)
  • Citations: whole areas of the article are uncited. The Investing section is full of unformatted bare links but no citations at all; the Criticism section has no citations beyond its first short paragraph; elsewhere citations are thin on the ground.

I will be pleased to provide detailed comments and suggestions at Peer Review, should the article be sent there. Brianboulton (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose - most of the article is uncited, there are large sections that are just bulleted lists, not prose, bare links in what references there are, lack of independent sources (most of the few references are to Dow Jones itself), and unreliable sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


Response - Look, were trying to work out all the issues. There are some citations missing, and we've consolidated alot of info. But it still has potential. The article deserves a shot. Let's not discount it because of some small problems. I hope the article makes its way to Peer Review. The subject matter is fairly notable. RT6543 1:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:26, 10 January 2010 .

Randy Johnson

Nominator(s): Alex (talk) 09:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because it has length and is very well written. It is well sourced and is about a relevant subject. I believe it meets the necessary guidelines. Alex (talk) 09:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments by an odd name—I'm not feeling confident on this one.

  • Have you consulted major editors of the article, or checked if they are inactive? See the candidates page: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination."
  • No dab links (good) but some dead external links, esp. ref 15 and External Links item 3. Replace them with archives or new sources to keep the article verifiable.
  • Add titles and author and publisher info to citations. Simply calling a citation "1", like at the very first ref, doesn't help us verify the statements and sources if e.g. the website goes down. Sources should be high quality and citation formats should be consistent (see criteria 1c and 2c).
  • Merge one-line paragraphs to bigger ones, or expand on their statements with more sentences. The retirement news might be big, but giving it or anything else its own sentence makes the article look choppy. Go for professional, flowing prose.
  • Images need alt text in case they don't load or the reader can't see them. (added on 09:59, 6 January 2010 (UTC))

--an odd name 09:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose, suggest withdrawal – Clearly fails FA criteria, and the problems are so severe that the article needs more time for fixes than an FAC should take. The most severe issue is a lack of references throughout the article. I'm not sure how the nominator can say this is "well sourced" when the vast majority of the article lacks citations. In addition, a few of the existing references strike me as unreliable (RootsWeb in particular), a non-free image with a questionable rationale exists, the prose turns listy toward the end, and there is a clarification tag. I understand that Johnson has been in the news lately due to his retirement, but this isn't close to being a GA, let alone an FA. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:26, 10 January 2010 .

Killswitch Engage

Nominator(s): TheWeakWilled (T * G) 16:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because the article is informative and well cited. No edit wars are occurring, and has been a GA for 2 years. Should meet all of the FA criteria TheWeakWilled (T * G) 16:01, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Fixed(?) TheWeakWilled (T * G) 19:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Better, but I'm afraid it still needs improvement. The alt text for the lead image is "Killswitch Engage in 2007", which (1) tells us nothing of what that image looks like (violating WP:ALT#Essence) and (2) contains details like proper names and dates that cannot be verified merely by looking at the image (violating WP:ALT#Verifiability). The alt text for the 2nd image File:Howard jones of killswitch engage.jpg is better, but it conveys little about why that image is worth looking at: the massive arm and tattoo, the man shouting into the microphone. The third image File:Killswitch Engage.jpg has no alt text. The fourth image File:Kse-adam-joel.jpg has the alt text "Two men are shown playing guitar on a stage set" is not really adequate either: its "are shown" is one of the WP:ALT #Phrases to avoid, and surely the alt text can say something about what the men and their costumes actually look like. Please take a bit of time to read WP:ALT, look at the examples, think about what a blind user would want to know about the images, and then give it another try. Eubulides (talk) 05:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
How are the new ones? I took some time to look at examples on WP:ALT and on The Beatles to get a better idea of what the text should be. File:Kse-adam-joel.jpg 's alt text may need to be changed, as I didn't know a perfect way to word it. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 15:11, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, it looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 17:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Right before I nominated the article I contacted 4 editors that have the most edits on the article that have edited it recently. I was confused at the exact syntax of how to do it (before I nom, after nominated, or whatnot) though. I will contact those editors as well, despite in-activeness. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose (suggest withdrawal)—The article presents a reasonable-enough timeline of the band's history, but there is little analysis anywhere in the prose. For eg: I read the entire article and still have no clue what Killswitch Engage sound like. Per present standards for band FAs, you'd need a couple of lines about it in the lead, and section dedicated to musical style and influences in the prose. You also devote far too much text to the band's tours; to be honest, reading that "Killswitch Engage played the <year> <festival> with <support band A>, <support band B> and <support band C>" makes for quite uninteresting reading. Every notable band goes on tour, so concert itenaries really aren't that important to note. On the other hand, concentrate on what makes the band unique—their music, critical response to their work, their influences, bands influenced by them etc.—indopug (talk) 04:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I'll add a section for Style and lyrical themes within the next two days. Specifically, which sentences should I remove (about tours)? I'm sure there are many that don't show anything about the band, but some are important, especially when a guitarist had back problems and couldn't play. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 13:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
No specific sentences as such, but this article has sentences which list every single band KSE toured with; these can be cut completely: "36 Crazyfists and Five Pointe O...From Autumn to Ashes, Eighteen Visions, and 36 Crazyfists...DragonForce, Chimaira, and He Is Legend...Iron Maiden, Evanescence, Lamb of God, Linkin Park, Slayer, and Marilyn Manson...Iron Maiden, Children Of Bodom, Carcass, At The Gates, Exodus, Kreator, Opeth, Unearth and As I Lay Dying".—indopug (talk) 15:19, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Removed the majority (if not all) of those. Started a styles an lyrical themes section, will be added when I have time to put more detail into it. Until then, can this be put  On hold (unless somebody else wishes to add to that section)? TheWeakWilled (T * G) 21:26, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Added the new section. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 21:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose on sources What makes these reliable?

  • Remove italics from online-only refs and put italics on print publications cited, even when citing their websites.
  • Ensure all Roadrunner cites follow the same nomenclature of publisher. I'm seeing tons of different variations.

RB88 (T) 23:11, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Lambgoat has been online for over 10 years and has a good reputation for fact checking and accuracy (Google news has some reliable sites that cite lambgoat as a reference)
We need proof I'm afraid. Otherwise it must be removed. RB88 (T) 19:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Was removed per comments below TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Punkrocks.net (now closed) was one of the largest punk rock websites, but closed in 2006. (Though it doesn't show anything about reliability), they had a stage at a major punk rock tour (Vans Warped Tour)
No substantial enough. Needs removal. RB88 (T) 19:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Was removed TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Blabbermouth is by far the largest metal website. While I don't consider it the most reliable website (one person runs the site), it is widely regarded as a reliable source here on wikipedia (see Blabbermouth.net and Google News
Removed that cite
Removed that cite as well.
What did you replace the above 2 with? RB88 (T) 19:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
One I just removed (guess the page didn't save before) and replaced with a cite from WWE. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
The other I removed entirely, as it was already sourced by blabbermouth. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
As for the italics, do you want me to italicize the title (such as a ref from a magazine)?
Yes, print publications must be in italics everywhere, while online-only sources not. RB88 (T) 19:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
How are they now? TheWeakWilled (T * G) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Fixing those now
TheWeakWilled (T * G) 21:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment on sources; lambgoat.com, punkrocks.net, rocknworld.com, ultimate-guitar.com, metalunderground.com are fan-made (therefore non-reliable) sources. Blabbermouth is a widely respected website, can definitely be used for non-controversial topics such as news. Some sources about the site can be found on Blabbermouth.net.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 10:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Removing those cites and adding cites from their documentary dvd. For metalunderground I put it on The RS noticeboard to see if it is reliable. Many articles here cite it, so if it isn't reliable I'll remove the cites from other articles. The Ultimate Guitar ref is referencing a professional review by the Ultimate Guitar team, not a random user, so should be considered reliable. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 15:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Fixed that one. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 01:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:13, 5 January 2010 .

Sri Lanka

Nominator(s): Supreme Unmanifest (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because this article seems to substantially conform to the requirements of Featured Articles and was nominated more than two years back which failed. It has been improved substantially and I feel that after a few edits it may reach the status this time. Supreme Unmanifest (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Acknowledged Supreme Unmanifest (talk) 06:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose -

  • Half a dozen fact tags, some from over two years ago, plus huge swaths of the article with no citations at all that aren't fact tagged. (Main problem in my view)
  • Many existing references improperly formatted - web references missing titles, publishers and access dates, book references missing page numbers.
  • Excessive bolding throughout the article needs to be removed.
  • External links in body of article should be turned into references or moved to seperate section.
  • Images lacking WP:ALT text.
  • Text sandwiched between images.

The reference issues are the biggest thing at this point, and they are issues that will probably take some time to correct. I didn't look at the references for reliability or quality, and so there may be more issues with the existing references then those I have listed above. I would suggest withdrawing the nomination and working on the article outside the pressures at FAC. Peer review may be a better place to start, and also consider a good article nomination, although neither of these two is required for an article to become a featured article. Dana boomer (talk) 23:38, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


I accept your auggestions. I don't mind if the article is withdrawn from the current process. Supreme Unmanifest (talk) 06:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose—not meant to "pile on" but I see the problems above and more.

  • There are some dab links and other article links that simply "loopback" to the article. There are some dead external links as well, mainly to gov.lk.
  • In section "Administrative divisions", remove the map's red links (they are supposed to show flag images that are now deleted) or add free flags.
  • Avoid choppy prose: Where there are single-sentence paragraphs (in section "Sports", for example), explain their ideas further or merge them to larger paragraphs. Move similar sentences together to improve flow.
  • (in the lead) "It is home to around twenty million people, about 14% of whom live on less than US$ 1.25 per day"—several problems here:
    • The figure is never mentioned in the article body. The lead should summarize what's already below it.
    • How is "US$ 1.25 per day" economically or psychologically important? Why use that currency in particular (instead of e.g. euros), and without a translation to the local currency? If it is the poverty line, mention that or link there.
    • "14%" doesn't seem too striking. How does it compare to major countries, or others with similar economies? (added on 00:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC))

Address Dana boomer's points (and mine) and get others to copyedit and look it over for a later nomination. --an odd name 00:09, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:13, 5 January 2010 .

Achtung Baby

Nominator(s): Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because... it has gone through a peer review and Good Article nomination process with very little trouble, and I feel it is one of the finest articles in the Music category. It has seen the eyes of many different U2 fans with many different sources, so it has information sourced from a great deal of places. I believe the topic is an important one, as well, as it almost spelled the end of U2, but instead brought new life to them, and the prose tells this story. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • Two dab links—replace them with more specific ones.
  • Ref 96's external link is dead. Ref 65 goes to a less specific page.
  • Most dates in refs are ISO style; change the rest of the ref dates to that style for consistency. Double-check that prose dates are all Day Month Year (most are).

--an odd name 23:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments I admit to jumping past the prose of the article completely and straight to the Charts and certifications section, but I have a few comments about just that section. Most of these comments are based on stuff from WP:ALBUM, WP:CHARTS, and MOS:DISCOG:

  • In the first table, what does the Peak position column refer to? Peak position of what?
  • The blank cells should have a dash, like the singles table.
  • Speaking of the dash, it should be an en-dash (–) or an em-dash (—), not a hyphen, which is what you're using now.
  • The Sales column is a slippery slope, since you appear to be basing it on the certifications given. Certifications aren't always based on units sold, sometimes they're based on units shipped, depending on the country, certifying body, sometimes even genre of the release. So, in other words, you should only provide sales figures when you're sure they're correct. So you'd be sure about this only if a) you have a source explicitly saying "100,000 sold" or you have one of the certifying bodies specifying exactly what a "Platinum" certification means (sold vs shipped). It looks like in all the sales figures you've given, you've extrapolated that info from the certifications awarded, which isn't reliable.
  • The ordering of the chart columns seem pretty haphazard. The typical way of doing it is homecountry first (Ireland, in this case), followed by the rest of the countries in english-language alphabetical order. It also seems like there's a huge skew towards the US here (5 of the 8 provided charts are American). Surely U2 has charted all over the world?
  • I also find it hard to believe that the album went Gold and Platinum in Finland and Germany respectively, but didn't chart at all? Drewcifer (talk) 01:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I admit that based on the Charts sourcing I would be inclined to oppose, but having done some sourcing recently for various U2 albums and singles I can perhaps explain some of the format details you noted above:
  • I agree that the majority of the US singles charts should be removed; I do not think that any more than the Hot 100, being the main US singles charts, need be included. U2 may chart all over the world, but per a recent FAC for No Line on the Horizon, it was my understanding that singles charts be limited to just English-language countries, such as Canada, Ireland, the UK, etc. I'm sure that the numerous US charts can be replaced with data from Australia and New Zealand, giving perhaps more of an international focus rather than a North American one. With the website reorganization by Billboard earlier this year many chart data were also either lost or merged; this would probably help to prevent inaccuracies as well.
  • I'm not sure if it's policy that the home country be listed first but the order can be switched relatively easily.
  • It's been a little while since I did work on the chart sourcing for this article, but two possibilities strike me regarding the Finnish and German charts. The first is that their respective IFPI websites do not list chart positions that far back, and so the data was unavailable to users with limited proficency in either language. The second is that, as my browser tends to shrink for some reason when on foreign-language websites, I was not able to undertake a thorough search. If the former is true then the tables will unfortunately have to be replaced until further charts are added (if ever). If the latter, then I would appreciate if people who are able to view foreign-language websites help in the search for that information. The UK position should probably be removed too; neither Billboard nor AllMusic seem to list it, and the British certification sites I have found only list the #1 albums for whatever reason.
  • I agree on the sales numbers; from a brief recollection, I think that only Canada and Finland have properly sourced sales numbers. Until sources can be found, I believe the rest should be removed (though I'm sure that the data must exist somewhere for the US and UK at least in old news reports).
The rest of the details seem to be relatively minor fixes that can be done fairly quickly. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 03:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment—Although I haven't really heard this album, and don't like U2 much, I found the article to be a very good read. I think you've a captured a story very nicely:

  • You overuse the words "band" (replace with "group" and "U2") and "album" (replace with "record" and "Achtung Baby"). If you do a ctrl+F on Firefox and hit 'highlight all', you'll see what I mean.
  • The Zoo TV tour section should be expanded to two paragraphs. It was a very unique tour, and it gives a good idea about where U2 were at the time. Makes for interesting reading too.
  • Are either the non-free cover or the track-listing in the Video section really needed? I don't see how they add anything to the article. I think that single paragraph about the video, is better off in the Release section.
  • Shouldn't the accolades in the table be sorted by Year? Also, centre-align the ranks.
    • I wasn't sure if there were certain guidelines for how to organize material like this. I just as well thought alpha-sorting by the publication/organization was good. But I can change this. I center-aligned the rankings. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Could you remove either the quote box or the review template from the Reception, it isn't recommended to sandwich the text in between like that.
  • The first four paragraphs seem to deal with the packaging and title of the album, so they should be in a Packaging section (as is standard for album articles).
  • The singles don't need a section for themselves. Merge this info with that last para in the Release section. Also, since they have their own articles, there is no need to mention how acclaimed the singles are.—indopug (talk) 13:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Should be fixed. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
      • I still think there is too much information, esp. chart information, which would be redundant to the chart table at the bottom, and singles' articles. I doubt you need more than a paragraph for all the singles.
      • Also, I wonder if you could rewrite the section to make the discussion of the singles more seamless with the release of the album as a whole. For example, "The Fly" was released a month before Achtung Baby, so you probably should mention the single's release before the album's.
      • Minor thing: per MoS, "#1, #10" should be "number one, number 10" throughout.—indopug (talk) 05:10, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I think this should be taken care of now. I've left in the charting information in the prose, since it doesn't hurt to list the highlights for each song in a sentence... and if we do eliminated the charting table because of reference concerns, this information in the Release section would be all the more important to keep. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 00:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose for a number of reasons. In a nutshell:

  • The prose needs work (example: "U2 returned to production team of Daniel Lanois and Brian Eno"). Suggest a full review by an uninvolved editor. I'm up for doing it, but you'll have to give me a few days.
  • Too many block quotes. Ascertain if you really need them at all (The Rolling Stone review strikes me as one that can be done without)
    • Removed the Rolling Stone review one. I think the others are of great value, and too long to stick in prose as just normal text. In my opinion, the quote blocks give more insight into the thinking the band/producers had and they help break up what is a lengthy, text-heavy article. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • As Drewcifer pointed out, the chart and sales situations need to be sorted. I'd advise that you remove the singles chart table, for if your going to create a singles chart table you really should be including charts from non-English-speaking countries, and Achtung Baby had so many singles with such chart success you're best leaving that to U2 discography.
    • As was mentioned above, I'm not very good with charting-type information (MelicansMatkin is much better with that). He also mentioned the point that for English Misplaced Pages, we should mostly be concerned with English speaking countries (per a FAC on another U2 album). Could this point be clarified? It seems we're getting conflicting information for 2 different FAC reviews. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • WP:CHARTS doesn't specify whether charts should be focused on English-language countries or a mixture of international charts. We can only go by our own interpretation and what we have been told to do in previous related FACs. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Lots of sources don't look to be reliable sources (ex. Bullz-eye.com, everyhit.com, besteveralbums.com, rocklistmusic.co.uk, Acclaimed Music Forums, spin100.blogspot.com). Some citations are incomplete (saw a few missing webpage retrieval dates).
  • Not all major sources have been consulted. For starters, there's an Achtung Baby book in the 33 1/3 book series. There's some indepth articles by the likes of Mojo, Q, and so on that haven't been consulted (I have access to them through Rock's Back Pages). Remember, with an album from 1991, not everything will be available online or be currently in print. This is not helped by the fact that U2 doesn't seem to have the same level of writing or research devoted to their music as, say, the Beatles or R.E.M (Yeah, you have U2 by U2, but this is a primary source, and you should lean towards focusing on secondary sources). You're going to have to really dig for some Achtung Baby-specific sources.
    • Could you share some of the information that may be in these articles? I'd honestly be surprised if there was any new information to turn up, but if they stand out off the top of your head, they must be important. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
      • Same as above. This will take time. You also need to review that 33 1/ book, which from what I understand is primairly focused on religious imagery in the album. As of right now, the album is not comprehensive in regards to major sources. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
        • From what I can tell, it is not necessarily focused on religious imagery so much as it is the author's religious interpretation of the album (and from the reviews I've read, it sounds like religion is a bigger focus than the album, the songs, or the band). But that is a valid point - religious imagery is something that should be touched on. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 07:17, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Critical reception boxes. Firstly, with the advent of the new review template (which is optional, by the way), the idea is to only list reviews with a clear rating metric. This means no longer including reviews that have to be described as "favourable" or "unfavorable". In fact, if you can find a source that summarizes the album's critical reception (essentially, finding a citation to back up the sentence "Upon its release, Achtung Baby received strong reviews from critics"), that should receive priority. Additionally, the "best-of lists" table is cumbersome and distorts the end of the article section. You address much of that in the prose, so it's unnecessary.
    • I understand your concern for the review box, but there doesn't seem to be any guideline that dismisses reviews without a rating. The template's documentation says the following: If no rating is given in the review you should use one of the words (favorable) or (unfavorable) to describe the review, possibly allowing for (ambivalent), (mixed), (extremely favorable) and more, but keep it short and simple. If you cannot summarize the review, don't include it in the template. In regards to the "best-of" list, I thought it would be more cumbersome to try and write prose about the album's appearance on a dozen-so-odd lists ("The album was ranked #62 all-time by Rolling Stone. It was also included on Time's 100 All-Time Albums list. It was also...."). Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
      • See the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Albums for further information about the new review template. Keep in mind we still haven't drawn up proper guidelines for it, but one of the key points is that reviews without any rating metric will not be included in the box, given such terms like "favorable", "unfavorable", "mixed", etc. can only be subjective summaries. As for the accolades, it shouldn't be too hard to cover them in the prose. See Loveless (album) and In Utero for examples. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
    • The "best-of" table has been converted to prose in a new section called "Legacy". Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 20:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Trival details for the album's context. The sentence "The album's intended homage to American music legends was interpreted as the band placing themselves as peers of the likes of Bob Dylan" is not essential to understanding Achtung Baby.
    • I don't think this is non-essential. It explains that Rattle and Hum was an exploration of American music and that the perception of the record by many critics was they were trying to enshrine themselves in the rock pantheon, something they were lambasted for. I think both points are important, considering the different direction U2 took leading into Achtung Baby. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
      • The way it is phrased makes it trivial. You say, "It explains that Rattle and Hum was an exploration of American music and that the perception of the record by many critics was they were trying to enshrine themselves in the rock pantheon, something they were lambasted for", but this is not evident by reading the prose, and the conclusion appears to be original research. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • A lot of sentences need to have their POV attributed.Ffor example, "Compared to the youthful exuberance on much of their 1980s work, Achtung Baby was a more direct and complex examination of pain in personal relationships and covered love, sexuality, spirituality, and faith, in addition to betrayal". That's not something you can objectively state, that's an opinion. So who said it? Make it clear in the prose.
This specific sentence that you highlight can be tweaked using the sources provided for that sentence - I need to get to them later tonight.
Personally, I'd rather keep away from attributed opinion unless the opinion itself is notable. Thus, I'm thinking to remove "youthful exuberence" whereas, the phrase examination of pain in personal relationships and covered love, sexuality, spirituality, and faith, in addition to betrayal seems to stand up pretty well - if one looks at the lyrics that's what it is about (and far more so than previous U2 albums). Of course, if one wanted to nit pick and argue to the extreme that it's all about personal interpretation, then perhaps we do need to remove it to satisfy those it see it as not about love, sexuality, spirituality, and faith, and betrayal, but rather the marshmellow man's experience apple farming on the space shuttle. Personally, I'd prefer the former, and suggest we step out on a fairly sturdy and well-fenced limb, and say the album deals with faith, betrayal, etc.
As I said, I can look at it tonight when I have the sources I used in front of me. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 22:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
You need to attribute the opinion. Otherwise it comes off as fact, when it isn't. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Remember, this is an overview of the article's issues. The articles needs some in-depth work to address them. Oh, and Indopug, I'd say this is not only the best U2 album, but an good introductory record for those who don't like U2. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:15, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

(Pshh. Boy and War pooh on this and any other ones they've done apart from The Joshua Tree. RB88 (T) 16:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC))

Wesley, I'd like to see you do that copy edit you suggest. You hit the nail on the head by saying it needs fresh eyes. The article as it stands is essentially a combined effort between krazyjoker and myself, and even I can see some of the clumsiness that he or I can no longer effectively fix - the prose has been jumping back and forth between minor tweaks for a while now with no improvement - parts of it need a completely different approach. I think the structure and content and referencing is excellent, and the basic flow, rather it's a sentence, possibly paragraph, level tweaking that needs doing by someone new. Krazyjoker will probably agree that it's a bit scary offering one's "Baby" (pun not intended, but once noticed, I thought it most apt), up for potential re-write, but it might get us out of the stale-eye prose dead lock. I will also hunt around for other copy editors. --Merbabu (talk) 23:02, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I can do a copyedit on the 1st of January. Sorry I can't do it sooner, but my time is limited these days. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:19, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on sources What makes these reliable?

  • All the atU2 links need to be removed. There's so much copyrighted material illegally published that I nearly had a coronary. Cite the works they all came from instead without a link.

RB88 (T) 16:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

  • I created print versions of the citations that attributed the original publications. I didn't have a lot of information, such as if there were specific authors or article titles. But I attributed the publications, the names of their lists, and the approximate publication date. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The copyright issue was a good pick up, but indeed hasn't Y2kcrazyjoker4 now addressed this issue? ie, atu2 links to the sources removed. Futher, between the two of us, we have the majority of these references in hard copies anyway (and most cites didn’t use links to atu2 anyway). And, while I agree with the copyright issue of atu2 and no-one mentioned reliability on this page, it has been mentioned elsewhere so I will pre-empt it if I may. There is no evidence of a reliability issue - for the handful of references I’ve checked, they appear to be accurately reproduced, and there is no evident reason to think that the others aren’t. Regards --Merbabu (talk) 23:43, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Media review: Two images. Alt text good for both.

  • Usage: Good, standard.
  • Rationale: Acceptable.
  • Usage: Good. Image is rich in visual information and substantially explicates sourced critical commentary.
  • Rationale: Unacceptable. A few problems here: (1) Sourcing is bad. We're given a link to the U2 home page, which does not show the image. You need to link to exactly where the image came from and provide all available information on publication and authorship. (2) A separate rationale is required for each article in which the image appears. There is currently none at all for this article. (3) The rationale needs to explain not only why the image significantly enhances understanding of the accompanying text, but the importance of the text to the article's subject, which may not be self-evident to editors who might come along in the future to vet the rationale. Do not simply duplicate the existing U2 and Zoo TV Tour rationale—its content is insufficient for a fair use image in a Featured Article (in addition to failing our image policy per #2 above). Take a look at the following summary/rationales, which are acceptable models: File:StoneSmoking.jpg, File:St1-enterprise and whiplash bolt.png.

Two audio samples:

  • Usage: Good. Well-chosen sample of non-single album track, with critical commentary on lyrics, musical arrangement, and the unique effect of its introductory passage, sampled here.
  • Rationale: Very good. Unacceptable. Again, a separate fair use rationale is required for each article in which the item appears. There is currently none at all for this article.
  • Usage: Good. Well-chosen sample of first of album's five singles, with critical commentary on lyrics, musical arrangement, and how its specific sound prompted its choice as the album's lead single.
  • Rationale. Very good. Unacceptable. And, for a third time, there is currently no specific rationale at all for this article. Do not simply duplicate the existing U2 and The Fly rationale—you need to explain why the sample is specifically important for the reader's understanding of this article, and you also need to note the length of the original song, so the technical aspects of the sample can be properly judged.—DCGeist (talk) 04:53, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Sound samples' fair use rationales should be OK now. The image I'll revisit in the morning - it isn't on U2.com anymore. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 09:10, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
It may just be me but it seems that the image could have been taken from the ZooTV video (the position of the shot looks identical to many of the camera angles from the release), in which case it should be fairly simple to change the source (if that is indeed the cas). MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:51, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
It's not taken from the video - it looks like it could have been taken as a promo image, but it doesn't compare to screen caps from the actual video. Just looking at Flickr, it doesn't look like there are lots of options for pictures of the full stage. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 20:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 15:13, 5 January 2010 .

Principality of Stavelot-Malmedy

Nominator(s): OwenBlacker (Talk) 13:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the required criteria. Fwiw, I am the primary editor of this article. OwenBlacker (Talk) 13:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Technical check No dabs or deadlinks, but WP:alt missing or inadequate 14:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Referencing is inadequate, just looking at first four refs. 1 lacks access date, unclear why it is RS, 2 lacks a publisher and looks like one copied from french Misplaced Pages, not actually seen by editor, 3 lacks access date, publisher, unclear why RS. 4 lacks publisher, unclear why RS. Other refs similar faults, some are to tertiary or otherwise dubious sources. Also uses Misplaced Pages as a source including this. Doesn't look ready for FA to me Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Some of those issues were dealt with in the GA review (here). To be clear and summarise, you want access dates against the online references (and justification that the sources are adequately reputable). Can you be more specific as to which references you do not feel are reputable? Also, where is there a reference that uses fr.wiki as a source? It's quite common for reference sections to mention that foreign-language Misplaced Pages articles have been used; I wasn't aware this prevented FA status. Sorry, not wanting to seem defensive, just not quite sure what specifically you would expect to see changed in order for the article to be FA-worthy, so I know which particular areas to work on over the next few days :o) -- OwenBlacker (Talk) 16:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
      • Online versions of books and journals don't need access dates, since the content is unchanging, but web-only content does. Web sites and books need a publisher. As a rule, general encyclopaedias are not considered RS unless the content referenced is verifiably by an expert on the topic. Foreign languages aren't indicated in a consistent fashion. I'll have a more through look tomorrow Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
        • Ok, I'll go through and take another look at those. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
        • I've added access dates to all the Web references. I couldn't see any inconsistent language references. I've added publishers to book references where possible (given some of the books are very old, this isn't always possible, but the disambiguation that providing a publisher provides is surely effected by hyperlinking to the source in question). A few sources are tertiary, as you mention; in the main, that's because there aren't an awful lot of secondary sources for a small state of the Holy Roman Empire. I think it's safe to assume that the Encyclopædia Britannica and Merriam-Webster have suitable editorial policies still to be considered reliable, no? *GRIN* — OwenBlacker (Talk) 00:38, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
      • This article makes use of the articles Principauté de Stavelot-Malmedy, Abbaye de Stavelot and Malmedy from the French Misplaced Pages and the article Stavelot on the English Misplaced Pages. In what way? If you have read them for ideas, that's fine, if you are using them as references, obviously not. If you are copying across references that you cannot/have not checked, that may be a cause for concern. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
      • File:Stavelot-Malmedy.png needs author death date to verify out of copyright Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
        • It really doesn't — the file is on the Commons, and is from a work (The Historical Atlas) widely used for PD imagery both across the Wikipedias and elsewhere; this should be plenty enough information for a Misplaced Pages. I have added William Robert Shepherd's year of death (1934) to the image page nonetheless. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Comments Agree with Jimfbleak it doesn't look ready. The referencing seems rather a hodge-podge of online sources, with the "Flags of the World" website the most commonly used reference. Johnbod (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Finding alternative references was indeed very challenging; I'm happy to try to look further, but I'm not sure more reliable sources are out there; we are discussing a relatively small state of the HRE, after all :o) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • The prose is often ungainly:"Several sources note that the two abbeys held disputes between themselves, with Stavelot assuming primacy over Malmedy, to the latter's discontent; new abbots were invested in Stavelot on behalf of both abbeys, however." - the two references for this, by the way, date from 1762 and 1788. "The villa's lands occupied the borderland between the bishoprics of Cologne and Tongeren, the territory previously having been part of the Frankish Empire, its independence dating to before the time of Charlemagne." - what does this mean? It was an "independent" villa? "A rejoiceful procession back to Stavelot paused en route to celebrate Mass on the banks of the Meuse, with a great crowd and further mirables". Johnbod (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Despite a plethora of references, the "Art" section is of doubtful accuracy. As far as I can see from the many works I have just used to expand Stavelot Bible, the binding (no doubt originally in precious metal with jewels) is not a "high point of mediæval art" as it has been lost, in the French Revolution if not before; the reference citing the British Library has been misread. Although the question is uncertain, most experts don't seem to think that the metalwork objects produced for the abbey were actually made there. There is no link for Mosan art, the most relevant article here. "The abbey at Stavelot was one of the leading centres of mediæval artistic production" is a near-quote from the EB, but there it refers to a particular region, a particular period, and a particular medium. To expand it to cover "mediæval artistic production" in general is too much. The same might be said for the two plaques from the retable, which is largely famous because there is a 17th century drawing of the whole thing before it was destroyed. Johnbod (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'll do a draft. Johnbod (talk) 12:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Having said all that the article is interesting and useful, so I hope it will receive the polishing it needs. Stavelot Abbey ought to redirect there rather than the town. Johnbod (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Further comment Looking around for the art section, it becomes clearer that there are gaps here. This is a fully online 300 history of Ètudes historiques sur l'ancien pays de Stavelot et Malmédy, which is of 1848, but for example mentions a serious sack of Stavelt in 1249, after which (from another source) it appears the abbey was unable to replace treasures important for the pilgrimage business for a century. That & the list of abbots on German WP make it clear that by the end of the Middle Ages the abbacy usually went to bishops of Liege, Tournai or Cologne, themselves usually the offspring of princely families. The Bavarian royal family supplied all the abbots from 1581 to 1657, at which point the Furstenberg's took over, then the Lorraines, taking one to 1731. The principality seems to have been a juicy little tit-bit in the power-politics of the Empire, and this needs coverage. Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comments -
  • First, what exactly did you mean by the reply to Jimfbleak above that "Yes, obviously". Did you mean that you read each reference in the various wikipedias and verified that they said what the article said? Or that you just used the articles for ideas?
    • The latter. The articles formed the basis for the article, to provide a framework for the article. I then researched and expanded the article to form the prose you see now. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Heraldica is cited as a resource in WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. FotW is quite widely used as a reference, to the extent that it has its own template: Template:FOTW, again referenced from WikiProject H&V. "The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG) was established in 2001 by a group of British genealogists and historians with a special interest in the medieval period. In January 2002 we formally registered the FMG as a not-for-profit organisation with the Charity Commission for England and Wales." They all seem like they should meet the requirements to me, no? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Just because the Heraldry wikiproject says use it doesn't make it reliable for these purposes, nor is a site devoted to Flags going to be reliable for history. I could possibly see the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy being reliable. To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think the title is not correct. I would prefer Imperial Abbey of Stavelot-Malmedy or monastic principality of Stavelot-Malmedy. I personnaly think the prose is often ambiguous. I provide a few examples:
    • "Saint Remaclus founded the Abbey of Stavelot on the Amblève river circa 650 out of what had been a villa." Was this villa a ruin? Was it still active?
    • "its independence dating to before the time of Charlemagne." The independence of the Abbey or of the villa? What does mean independent at those past times? It was a fiefdom, wasn't it? When? During the reign of Sigebert III.
    • "The monastery of Malmedy is considered by the historians and the hagiographers to be slightly older than the monastery of Stavelot" From the first part of the section, it seems Stavelot was first founded (on the villa's territory). Contadistinction?
    • " The abbey church in Malmedy was dedicated to St Benedict." This sentence appears as an orphan in the section. It provides almost no information.
    • "the abbeys played an important cultural role in Lotharingia, particularly thanks to prince-abbot Christian." Which one? Why in Lotharingia? Why not in Europe? Lotharingia has had a very short lifetime!
    • "Through the seventh and eighth centuries, the two abbeys followed their mission of evangelism, along with forest clearance, but suffered the same decay as elsewhere with the collapse of the Carolingian Empire, with the principality in the custody of lay abbots — temporal guardians — from 844 to 938, including Ebbo, archbishop of Rheims, Adalard the Seneschal, Reginar and Giselbert, dukes of Lorraine, and the like." Could you please cut this sentence into two or more? Avoid "and the like". Which decay? "Collapse of the Carolingian Empire" It is not clear whether the Carolingian Empire collapsed!
Vb (talk) 09:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Eubulides (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
    • Thank you. I've dealt with all of those except the Prinsenvlag, which is included by {{flagicon}}; looking at the source, I can't see how to alter the alt tag there. I didn't realise that we'd gained the ability to add alt tags in the infobox, though; thanks for pointing me to that! — OwenBlacker (Talk) 22:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
      • Thanks for doing all that; the alt text is much better now. I fixed File:Prinsenvlag.svg by creating {{Country data United Kingdom of the Netherlands}} and changing the article from "{{flagicon|Dutch Republic}} ]" to "{{flag|United Kingdom of the Netherlands}}", and struck the items that have been fixed. However, the items not crossed out above still need fixing. Also, there's a problem with the newly introduced alt text: it contains many details that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the images. These details include "Coat of arms of Stavelot", "St Remaclus" (twice), "the" (in "the abbey"), "legendary", "along the banks of the Meuse", "Bible" (twice), "St Sebastian", "Byzantine", "each containing portions of the True Cross", "Gabriel", "Lower Rhenish–Westphalian Circle", and "Holy Roman Empire". Please see WP:ALT#Verifiability for why details must be verifiable directly from the image, and please see WP:ALT #Proper names for why proper names typically should not be in alt text. Eubulides (talk) 07:12, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
        • Foolishly, I'd not read WP:ALT in adequate detail; again, thanks for pointing me to that. I've made all these edits apart from the two from the map in Template:Lower Rhenish–Westphalian Circle — I'm not convinced the prose makes sense or is useful without those two names, both of which can be derived from the context of the map within the template. I'd like to argue that the context, thus, makes the two names permissible, despite the recommendations of WP:ALT#Proper names. — OwenBlacker (Talk) 12:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
          • Thanks for the changes. As a non-expert looking at that map, I'm afraid I have to disagree: it's not at all obvious to a non-expert that the colored region is the Lower Rhenish–Westphalian Circle and the white region the Holy Roman Empire: it could just as easily be the other way around. I attempted to fix it by adding a proper caption to the image, and then removing the corresponding info from the alt text as per WP:ALT#Repetition. I also reworded some info in the infobox alt text that I couldn't otherwise verify from the images. Eubulides (talk) 07:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
            • Aaah, I see what you mean. That's much better. Thank you for helping with that! — 15:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm really sorry, but I have to oppose. The article has some serious historical problems. Anachronisms like describeing a 7th century abbot as "prince-abbot" of course the infobox: 651, Holy Roman Empire, successor state, the "Frankish Empire", colored coat of arms, and so on. Also imbalanced ... huge history section, a bit for geography and art, but nothing else. Parts of article uncited, e.g. "In 1659, a Capuchin convent was built in Stavelot.", and most of the sources used are frivolous, outdated or tertiary (e.g. "Saint Remaclus founded the Abbey of Stavelot on the Amblève river circa 650") Article appears to cite primary sources directly or at least only with a non-modern editorial , and (to repeat slightly) many of the sources it uses are 19th and 18th century and thus probably out of date (and this might also explain why the article is so packed with anachronism). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
    • I definitely agree with some of those points; I've corrected the anachronistic references to prince-abbots. The predecessor state to the Imperial Abbey, however, was indeed the Frankish Empire, I'm not sure what you would prefer to see here, nor do I understand the problem with a coloured coat of arms. I fail to see why old references are less likely to be accurate, however — we accept Bede as a reference for Anglo-Saxon England, for example. There are very few more-modern references for what was a small state in the Empire, surely it's better to have old references (which, as they're about then-recent history, are likely to be pretty accurate) than none? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 15:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, there are quite a number of reasons why old references are less likely to be accurate. I'm afraid that if you don't realise that yourself, you'll just have to take my word on it. And quoting Bede directly, or a similar source, is WP:OR and isn't recommended unless you are a specialist historian.
      • The assertion "The predecessor state to the Imperial Abbey ... was indeed the Frankish Empire" is just wrong. The Frankish realm wasn't an Empire until 800, and besides that the abbey was just an abbey that was part of a series of different kingdoms: the notion that it was a state within the best part of a millennium of its foundation is yet another anachronism. Francia was no more a "predecessor" to any of its monasteries than the Kingdom of England was a "predecessor" to Durham Cathedral Priory. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:46, 2 January 2010 .

John Christie (murderer)

Nominator(s): Wcp07 (talk) 02:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


I nominated this article back in October and addressed most of the issues then. There was one outstanding issue of image use which I was not able to resolve; I believe I have resolved it now. I have linked the previous featured article candidate discussion here. Back then, the main issues were inline citations and copyediting, which I was able to address. Wcp07 (talk) 02:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. Wcp07 (talk) 22:24, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Mm40 (talk · contribs)

  • "hanged in 1953 for his wife's murder, after his" you can remove the comma
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Christie had served in World War I" remove the redundant "had"
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • In the lead, why is rape linked but not "theft" and assault"?
Links included for theft and assault. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Because the second note cautions against the use of necrophiliac, its inclusion is somewhat POV. Moreover, it's not discussed anywhere in the article, so it shouldn't be in the lead.
I've taken out the reference to necrophilia in the lead but I've still included it in the body (under "Later murders"). I think it's important to mention as Christie is commonly held to be a necrophiliac, even if that description might not be particularly accurate. I've pointed out that there is a dispute over whether he is one or isn't, so hopefully that will satisfy POV concerns. Wcp07 (talk) 04:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Timothy Evans was charged with both murders, was found guilty of the murder of his daughter and was hanged in 1950" repeats the word "was" three times
Redundant "had's" removed. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "When Christie's own crimes were uncovered three years" two things: I think "own" is redundant, and "uncovered" isn't the most encyclopedic.
Done; uncovered replaced with discovered. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Mr Justice Brabin stated" should lose the "Mr" and have a full name
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Remove "nevertheless"
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "enabled the then Home Secretary to" either should give a name or remove "then"; it's obvious that the then Secretary did it
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "the age of eight" can be simply "age eight"
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Is all of the first paragraph of Early life covered by the given reference, or just the sentence about his grandfather?
The reference in the first paragraph is only citing the sentence about Christie grandfather. The rest of the paragraph I felt didn't require citations; I can add some though if they're needed. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "was a Boy Scout; upon leaving school" should have a period instead of a semicolon.
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "to talk much louder than a whisper, Kennedy argues" can just be "to talk loudly, Kennedy argues" because the detail is previously given.
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Ethel Simpson Waddington from Sheffield, on 10 May 1920" the comma is splicing
Done; comma removed. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "end his cycle of petty crime" isn't really a cycle, because one crme doesn't lead to another
Done; "cycle" replaced with "course". Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "to Harrow Road police station" seems to need "the"
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "she was on the beat or in a" I think "on the beat" is a bit jargonish
Done, reworded. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "Christie impulsively strangled her during" why "impulsively"?
I used "impulsively" to convey the sense that it occurred without warning. I've replaced it with "without warning" to be clearer. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • "the husband of the woman with whom he had been having the affair" is a bit wordy. How about "the woman's husband"?
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • The last sentence of the first paragraph of First murders needs clarification: which building is being referred to?
Done; specified the building is Christie's residence. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Reference 4 has a period at the end while the others don't (pedantic, I know).
It's put in automatically by the cite:book template I used for the reference. That probably means I'm going to have to add a period to all the manual references for consistency. How annoying. Wcp07 (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully more comments coming; I'm going to wait a while as I think this needs some more copy-editing, but I'm gonna wait for some other opinions. Cheers, Mm40 (talk) 00:36, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to put the article through further copyediting. But as you suggest, I'll wait for further comments. Wcp07 (talk) 07:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, my lack of comments isn't a wait for more comments as much as lack of available time. Mm40 (talk) 12:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Mild oppose. I'm not any too happy about the prose, which doesn't flow very well. Getting some fresh eyes in there would probably help. When you've read a text over and over, and tried to please everybody, your feeling for more intangible things in it, like "flow", may end up a little overtaxed. (A phenomenon known as "flow fatigue".) I've done a bit of copyediting (just now), but there remain some sentences in there that sound almost a note of unintentional comedy. At a minimum, please rephrase "Christie resigned as a Special Constable, likely due to emotional conflicts between being a murderer and a member of the police force", and "The tenants were black immigrants from the West Indies with whom the Christies despised living because of racial prejudices". This one, "He also admitted to killing Beryl Evans, with whom Timothy Evans had originally been charged", while it's by no means comical, is an illustration of the kind of syntax difficulties you're likely to find yourself in if you insist, as this text appears to do, on the nonsense "rule" that a sentence mustn't end with a preposition. (See Preposition stranding for the "overzealous avoidance" of prepositions at the end.) Bishonen | talk 20:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC).
I've rephrased some of the awkward passages in the text, but it's difficult to spot them when you've read the text over about a hundred times or so. I see what you mean about "overzealous avoidance" of having prepositions at the end, so I've rephrased the glaring ones to make the prose flow better. I'm not sure that it needs more copyediting, though - I actually had the article copyedited by User:Shirik last night before you made your comments, so I can't see what further copyediting it needs. Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Spaced en dash required in a full date range, since there's at least one space within the elements.
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Link for "pardon"? Rather common word. Same for "conviction", "probation", "petty crime"
I've delinked many of the common words, most of which were successively linked by anonymous IP users. I'm happy to also delink "pardon" but I've kept it linked so that those not familiar with UK law can find out why the Home Secretary doesn't issue pardons but must recommend them (to the monarch) instead. Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Lots of clean-ups required, such as "in spite of having an extensive criminal record" --> "in spite of his extensive criminal record".
Done. Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • The relationship between clauses is a real problem.
Not too sure what that means. Are there some specific examples you have in mind? Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Needs an independent copy-edit throughout. Tony (talk) 22:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

As I've mentioned above, I'm not sure that it needs further copyediting as it's now been copyedited twice since its peer review prior to the last nomination.Wcp07 (talk) 04:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - for now. The main problem is that the prose does not flow well; the sentences are often too detached from each other in style and content. This is often easier to spot than fix, but I have made some suggestions , but other problems remain.

  • Here for example, there are two adjoining sentences both beginning with "after": After initially alleging that Christie had killed his wife in a botched abortion operation, Evans then confessed to murdering his wife and daughter. After he was charged with their deaths, Evans recanted his confession and again accused Christie of being the murderer, this time of both his wife and daughter. and there is "Evans...Evans.
  • This sentence is trying to say too much and has to be read twice, This reaction, together with Christie's exaggeration of the effects of the attack, stemmed from underlying hysteria in Christie; such a condition encouraged him to exaggerate or feign illness as a ploy to get attention and sympathy.
  • This sentence does not make sense, Christie, without warning, strangled her during sex at Rillington Place in August 1943, not long after his assault.
  • Here, both of whom were found in an outside wash-house with Beryl's body additionally parcelled up the "additionally parcelled up" sounds very odd.

The Ladbroke Grove image adds nothing to the article, but the legend does. I suggest deleting the image and incorporating the legend into the body of the article. The plan of Pentonville in Victorian times added nothing at all and I have taken the liberty of deleting it. On reading this, I could not help compare it with Moors murders, an engaging FA that flows beautifully despite the evil it describes.

Lastly, the reader needs to be told that at the time of the murders, homes in the UK were supplied with town gas, which was mostly carbon monoxide, which is poisonous, and not the much less harmfulnatural gas (methane), which we burn now. Graham Colm 17:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:46, 2 January 2010 .

SMS Blücher

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 02:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


I wrote this article back in June and took it through GAN and a MILHIST ACR in July. It's since sat on the back burner while I took the Derfflinger-class battlecruisers through to a complete FT. I feel it's pretty comprehensive, considering the fairly short life-span of the ship (she was in commission for barely more than 5 years). I look forward to any and all comments and suggestions to help me ensure this article is of Featured quality. Thanks in advance. Parsecboy (talk) 02:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Technical stuff

--an odd name 18:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • How was the torpedo bulkhead situated in relation to the main armor belt?
  • Were the casemated guns washed out at high speeds or sea states?
  • The Bombardment of Yarmouth section doesn't mention any armored cruisers until Yorck ran onto a minefield. You only mention Blücher, some battlecruisers and light cruisers, but no armored cruisers. Where did she come from?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
    • I clarified where the bulkhead was. I haven't seen anything specifically state that Blucher's casemates were wet, but given that practically every warship with casemates had this problem, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that Blucher did too. That said, without having a source state as much, I'm not going to add it to the article. As for Yorck, I haven't been able to find out where the ship was specifically prior to her sinking. It certainly wasn't with Hipper and the BCs, so I'm assuming it was with the main fleet. Parsecboy (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose, 1a. The text contains too much jargon and vague language—I found it to be a very frustrating read and not at all accessible. Some back-knowledge can be assumed, but average readers should be able to make it through most sentences without clicking off to read definitions and context. Sample issues:
    • The opening line leaves me a bit cold, to be honest. What does "last" mean in this context? Last built? Last surviving?
    • "which were expected to simply be larger" The modifier "simply" seems misplaced or misused here. What are you modifying?
    • "Being only an upgrade of the traditional armored cruisers" In what way? I read on a considerable distance to discover no section detailing the contrast between Blücher and the "traditional armored cruisers". Unclear prose.
    • "One week after the final decision was made" Which decision? The armament decision, or are you speaking of overall design considerations?
    • "Blücher had a draft of 8.84 m forward, but only 8.56 m aft." The word "only" suggests that the contrast should mean something to me... but what?
    • "However, she suffered from severe roll, and at hard rudder, she heeled over up to 10 degrees." This sentence was impossible for me to digest as a non-specialist. "Roll" links to an article that describes "listing".
Good start but it definitely needs tightening up and improved accessibility. --Andy Walsh (talk) 06:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing the article. "Last" does indeed mean "last built;" I've specified that. As for "simply," I'm not quite sure what you mean. The following sentence should make clear what I meant by the assumption that the Invincibles would feature only minor improvements over the armored cruiser type. I added a note comparing Blücher and the preceding Scharnhorst class in terms of number of guns. The "only" was meant to highlight the fact that the ship displaced more water forward; I've reworded that slightly. For the "decision," yes, the latter. I've linked roll to a better article and perhaps clarified what the 10 degrees was referring to. Parsecboy (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Additional comments, through the Design section. I appreciate your looking at my concerns above. I urge you to get some help in here to tighten up the prose so we don't have to have laundry lists at the FAC—we're applying bandaids but it really needs a good run-through.
    • "information from the British Naval Attache about the armament of Invincible class was leaked" By whom? If possible, make active voice and specify who leaked.
    • "The three engines were separated in individual engine rooms." How do you feel about "segregated" instead? "Separated" gives me the impression of being taken apart.
    • "though fuel bunkers were expanded to allow up to 2,510 tons of coal" Unclear. Was this done at design time, or at build time as a last minute modification? Or was it done by the crew? As above, it could benefit from being made active voice to specify when and by whom.
    • Footnote 5 seems to go to the wrong URL, as it is the same as footnote 4. It's about the 21 cm SK L/45 and not the 15 cm. Therefore, I cannot verify the data about the 15 cm presented in the article.
    • How do we know the data presented on navweaps.com is accurate? I noted in the sourcing that the author says some of the data comes from "Tony DiGiulian's personal data files". Who is Tony DiGiulian, and how can we trust his personal data files? I would much prefer this type of technical data be sourced to a published work that's been fact-checked or peer reviewed.
    • "reduced to 80 mm in less important areas of the hull" Which are what?
    • "though this only ran the length of the hull between the forward and rear centerline gun turrets" Confusing. "ran the length of the hull" means the whole hull, but then you qualify the statement. Why not just "ran between the the forward and rear centerline gun turrets"?
    • "The forward conning tower had an armored roof that was 80 mm thick and 250 mm-thick sides." Missing parallel structure, rough to read.
--Andy Walsh (talk) 03:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
In regards to Navweaps.com, it's been discussed at WP:RS/N in the past (the old discussion has been preserved here). I've fixed everything else you pointed out, with the exception of the first. It's unlikely that the person who leaked the information is known; I haven't come across it in any of the reading I've done. I'll see what I can do as far as getting a read through of the prose. Parsecboy (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Comments: What's wrong with this picture?
    • "approximately 30 mi (48 km) north of the Dogger Bank"
Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Can you be more specific please? Parsecboy (talk) 14:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Sure, but it really shouldn't be that hard to see for somebody familiar with the subject matter, once somebody has pointed out that potential problems exist:
  1. Why would anybody be measuring this distance in English statute miles?
  2. In particular, why would this be in English statute miles in a German-ship article?
  3. Even if it really were in statute miles, those strange-to-the-context units would need to be specifically identified as such.
  4. Even if it were statute miles, the precision of the conversion result would be inappropriate for the "approximately" introduction.
That is often the consequence of over-reliance on black boxes such as {{convert}} by people who don't know how to make them work properly. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:19, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Tarrant, to whose book the claim is sourced, specifically uses miles: "...in a position about 30 miles north of the Dogger Bank..." I merely repeated the figure from the source. I could see your objection if the convert template resulted in something like "approximately 30 miles (48.280 km)", but 48 is a perfectly fine number with which to use a qualifier like "approximately." Parsecboy (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
How can you be so clueless as to still not get it, if you are trying to edit articles about ships? Try statute mile, maybe that will help. Then check out the next main section below it. Gene Nygaard (talk) 18:07, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.