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Filmography tables

Please save as it is an on-going project. Thank you. I've been working diligently to get filmographies tabled. I started work on the film actors tab, and under that, the award winners. Some of them already had completed filmographies, a great many didn't. I have completed filmographies on the Academy Award winners, with only the following to go. It would be helpful to check the ones that are in list form for any film omissions. Some omissions I've come across were a little puzzling. Please jump in and work on the tables as possible. If you do complete one, please strike through the name. Thanks!

* - indicates there is no filmography at all

Academy Award for Best Actor to table

Academy Award for Best Actress to table

Ginger Rogers
Jane Wyman

Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor to table

Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress to table

Thanks again to anyone who feels compelled to jump in!!! Wildhartlivie (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Article alerts and cleanup listing...

...are now available for this project!

• Article alerts
• Cleanup listing

Hopefully people will find these of use. Regards. PC78 (talk) 07:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC) (Please keep for the time being. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC))

Pageview stats

After a recent request, I added WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 00:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Just a question

Does anyone else happen to find the sudden flux of additions to articles of a navbox for MTV Movie Awards at all annoying? Don't we have enough meritorious awards to contend with to have to check/render opinion on awards that are open to multiple voting and excessive fan bias? This might just be my own personal rant, but we don't particularly need a navbox for every single award, regardless of its stature or commonality. I've been fine with these boxes for major awards, but I'm concerned, perturbed, and yes, annoyed, at the proliferation of them. Even tucked away in a nice {{Template group}} covering, this is becoming the new generation of undue weight given to a passing editor's award of choice. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Such navigation templates should be removed because such details do not belong in actors' articles. The focus is on the actor, so who else won the award is not relevant in that actor's article. The better approach is to ensure that there is a direct link to the award article, and in the case of Johnny Depp, MTV Movie Award for Best Performance. That way, readers can go to the article where such details are warranted. (In any case, MTV Movie Awards is useless -- look what won the MTV Movie Award for Best Movie in 2009.) Erik (talk | contribs | wt:film) 19:28, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree—MTV Movie Awards should be treated like the Razzie Awards, IMO. --Mike Allen  20:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Couple of question...

Looking at the consensus above not to have navboxes padded, I'm curious of your thoughts on

1. Secession boxes for actors to have played a specific character; and
2. Navboxes like {{Superman actors}}

Thanks

- J Greb (talk) 22:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Succession boxes were determined to be inappropriate by prior consensus (see front page for that and consensus page). I believe that the use of navboxes like the one you suggested are also redundant to article content. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

So... IIUC, succession boxes for roles is out, but succession boxes for directors as still good?

And the type of navbox I'm pointing to is a bit of a "sidestep" - since the "Actors portraying..." cats are no-gos, the 'box is a replacement for that. And it is, essentially, as "Cast & Crew" 'box.

Last thought... I'm making an assumption here that these cover all actors, not just those pertaining to film.

- J Greb (talk) 01:00, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Relevant AFD

Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Junko Sakurada. Thank you for your time, Cirt (talk) 12:20, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments needed

An issue has arisen at Russell Crowe regarding addition of a large section of content on Firepower International which another editor and myself have gone on record as stating it is given undue weight, leans toward convicting Russell of complicity in a con activity and is inappropriately lengthy with no evidence against him save an appearance on The Tonight Show with a jersey. More opinions are needed on this possible WP:BLP violation. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed the contentious section and commented on the talk page. I encourage others to review the situation because the other entities involved are contesting our good faith in the matter. Erik (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Opinions needed

Please see Talk:Nicole Kidman#Kidman's humanitarian status for a disagreement over referring to Kidman as a humanitarian. Eyes and comments are needed. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Some TfDs that may be of interest here

They are:

• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:X-Men film series cast and crew
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:Spider-Man film series cast and crew
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:1966-1968 Batman television series cast and crew
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:1978-1987 Superman film series cast and crew
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:Batman actors
• Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Template:Superman actors

Thanks

- J Greb (talk) 23:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Cast/Crew in navigation boxes

Since I have run into some friction on this issue, I came here for some clarification. I believe the consensus is for navigation boxes to not contain cast and crew members in Television and Film navigation boxes. Do I understand that correctly? BOVINEBOY2008 :) 17:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers/Archive 3#Actors padding TV and film navboxes. Erik (talk) 18:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I've read it but just to be clear, it is consensus not to include them? BOVINEBOY2008 :) 18:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

That's my impression, not just from that discussion, but from the general approach. I agree with the sentiment that names don't belong in navigation boxes. (This same issue was raised at WT:MOSFILM#Film navbox consensus, oh where did it go?. Erik (talk) 18:40, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm with you two on this. Flyer22 (talk) 21:08, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

It does seem logical not to clutter the navboxes up with that unnecessary information. I just wanted to be sure and wanted a solid consensus before I went hacking away.  :) --Mike Allen  00:29, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a relevant TfD going on here. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 11:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like you hit a fan nerve lol. Will put my 2 cents in soon. --Mike Allen  18:05, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but personally I think that the navboxes should include at least principal cast and crew - I would not call this unnecessary information - It is quite a useful tool. However, I do agree that a multitude of navboxes should not be on each individual actor's page. Has a consensus been reached? Is there a central discussion? Rob Sinden (talk) 13:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The consensus for this action is born out of the consensus established in 2007 that categories like " actors", " writers" and " directors" should not exist per WP:OCAT. People then added cast and crew to these navboxes as a way of getting around the category rules. I can't disagree that having cast in the navboxes—but excluding the navboxes from the actors articles—is a good system for navigation BUT a) you then have to deal with well-meaning users who "helpfully" add the navboxes to the articles they have been deliberately left off of, and b) you get people adding as many names as they possibly can to the navboxes as a way of trying to legitimise its very existence, which just becomes irrelevant padding. Bradley0110 (talk) 13:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

If you add cast/crew members to every navbox, then actors pages will be filled with links that have little to do with the person. It doesn't make sense. We need to draw the line solidly, not just "its okay for the main characters"; that will lead to issues of POV, OR, and UNDUE. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 14:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Other than through people adding them, there is no reason to suppose that "actors pages will be filled with links that have little to do with the person", surely? As far as Navboxes go, it seems to me that (and I'm picking an example out of my head here) it would be strange for a The Matrix navbox not to include Keanu Reeves or The Wachowski Brothers, or a Star Trek navbox not to have William Shatner or Leanord Nimoy, but I'm not suggesting that these navboxes should be on the individual actor or crewmember page, as the links would be in the filmography. Rob Sinden (talk) 14:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, I can't find a consensus anywhere on this - isn't it a case where common sense and discretion should prevail? i.e. if the navboxes get ridiculous and include complete cast lists then they should be pared down, but no need as a matter of course? Rob Sinden (talk) 14:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

An actor/crew member is not defined by the roles he plays. Also, navigation boxes belong on every page contained in the box, otherwise the usefulness of the navigation is lost. I couldn't find the consensus either, but I know it is; the idea has been used before for TfDs. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 15:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what is meant by your statement "An actor/crew member is not defined by the roles he plays" and how it is relevant to this discussion. You also mention that "navigation boxes belong on every page contained in the box, otherwise the usefulness of the navigation is lost", but surely more usefulness is lost if the information is removed completely from the navigation is lost. If you see what I mean. I'm not saying that navigation boxes should have exhaustive cast lists, but I can't see the harm in having (and this is the one that turned me on to this discussion in the first place) Wes Craven, Kevin Williamson, Neve Campbell, Courteney Cox and David Arquette in the Scream template. In fact the template is much worse (nearly useless) without them. In my opinion, these at least, should be on this template. You are also claiming "consensus", but as mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any, and no guidelines seem to exist. Perhaps some discretion should have been used when decimating these templates, or they should have been discussed on relevant pages individually. Rob Sinden (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from. But the point of navigation boxes is to link similar articles together by placing the template on the those pages. If cast/crew are navigation boxes, every show that the person was in would have a navigation box on their page. That is overlinking and unnecessary. Also, we can't simply say important cast members are okay; what does it mean that a cast member is "important"? And what makes one person more important than another. This leads to POV and OR. As I understood it, this is the consensus; when I removed the cast, ie before Robsinden and Bradley, everyone agree: a consensus. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 16:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with removal of people from navboxes in general, and I'm not convinced there's anything like a consensus for it. I am certainly against cluttered navboxes, but to pick a show I don't watch so nobody calls me biased, it would be weird for the 30 Rock navbox not to have Tina Fey. The beauty of navboxes is that they provide an easy way to navigate through an unfamiliar topic and see the bigger picture. The guideline at WP:CLN states "They are particularly useful for small and more or less complete sets" which I would argue applies in the case of above-the-line people on a TV show/movie. I also agree with the essay WP:NAV when states "While the main article already contains inline links to the subsidiary articles, the subsidiary articles themselves are smaller and their prose may not place them into the overall context with each other. Editors who work on the subsidiary articles in isolation may be unaware of this context. The navigation template provides an easy way for the subsidiary articles, even when they begin as stubs, to instantly inherit the conceptual structure of the main article." I think this supports including the principal cast&crew. --Intractable (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Cast & crew are independent of the show, though. It not only gives unnecessary clutter to the navigation box, but also on the persons article. I've explained this five million times; allowing them on navboxes will involve a candy-cane striping on the bottom of every actor/crew member article and would connect them to potentially completely unrelated articles. Now for me, it makes sense to include the creator(s), like Tina Fey and 30 Rock, as they have a strong connection with all subsequent articles; they created them. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 22:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I see maybe five people in the discussion linked to as "consensus" and I don't think that is enough for such a blanket change. If you are going to address all of these series, you really need to post links on the talk pages of those templates to notify interested editors about the discussion. Personally, the cast and crew are the people who make a series possible and I think it's ridiculous to remove them from the navboxes. --Zoeydahling (talk) 22:52, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I left links on the Television and Film project talk pages, as that encompasses all of the templates. Also, please realize that if a cast/crew member weren't in a show, there would probably just be another to come along and play the part; the content of the work of fiction defines it, not who portrays/creates it. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 22:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:MOSFICT says that we should describe works of fiction from a real-world POV and the people who create the work of fiction are a large part of that. I don't think it matters who else might hypothetically be playing a role if someone left, what matters is who is playing it now and is known to the audience as that character. Also, about your above comment about "candy cane striping" on pages, I really don't think that matters. If an individual was in a number of projects, why is it harmful to have links with more information about the projects and other members of the projects? I don't think an aesthetic reason is strong enough to negate the fundamental loss to the usefulness of templates by removing the people from them. --Zoeydahling (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The characters are linked in the navboxes, so if a reader wants to know who played that character it would take all but a second to click and find out (and read more). 9 times out of 10 the characters are only on that show (unless they do rare crossovers). Also the director and writers not only directs or writes the show at hand, but most likely OTHER shows; so why add them to that particular show, and then add them to the another show, and then another, etc? Speaking of Tina Fey, uh why does she have her own navbox? Seriously? --Mike Allen  23:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point about the characters being linked in the navboxes, MikeAllen. For that reason, I am not seeing why their portrayers also have to be there. And the crew names? That information can often be found in the article; if people are too lazy to read, that is not our problem. I feel that Bovineboy has tackled this topic well enough. I do clearly see why both sides feel the way they do, though. Flyer22 (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)

2-ish¢... (covers a couple of things here)

• Inclusion criteria - To include actors, writers, creators, produces, production companies, gaffers, musicians, etc, some sort of criteria would be needed. the most neutral, and what has been the default to this point, is anyone in the show/film credits that has a Misplaced Pages article. That does generate long lists, very long ones when you start looking at long running shows or shows with large ensemble casts. And keeping in mind "They are particularly useful for small and more or less complete sets" (from CLN), long lists seem counter to the guidance. "Major" and "Main" are loaded words since it requires a judgement call as to the value of a person's contribution to the show or film.
• "Candy caning" - As an example of what could happen to an actor's article see Stan Lee or Jack Kirby. And those are related to a project with an extremely limited inclusion for "real people". Also, the "hide the foot long collection of navboxes" just covers one issue, the mass is still hard to work through for items. An with relation to the WG such a "hide it" would also include "Works by" and awards 'boxes.
• Proliferation - Two parts actually. A side from the inclusion criteria, there is also the issue of "If there is an infobox for one, there can be one for any". Most show or film 'boxes get removed because there is to few items for them - main article + episode list + character list = no 'box. Once those can add cast & crew, they become valid even if the bios barely touch the topic, if at all.
• And with {{Tina Fey}}... that just moves the issue to the other articles. (shuddering at what SNL and Second City would look like...)

- J Greb (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Having seen a bunch of these come through the Templates for Discussion (formerly "Templates for Deletion") process, my take is this: The big problem with cast and crew in film/tv navboxes is the potential for clutter on articles. This has been discussed multiple times in multiple places. If you put actor/crew templates at the bottom of movie/show articles, then articles about many productions would be loaded with cast/crew templates. Examples where there are double-digit numbers of notable cast/crew can be provided easily. On the flip side, if navboxes for movies/shows are placed on cast/crew articles, then articles on prolific artists would be drowned in navboxes. Look at the filmography for Betty White, just for one example. So it is clear that any such placement can only be one-way. If there is a movie/show template that includes actors, it should not be placed on the articles for those actors.

Personally, I have no problem if the actors are listed in the navbox, with the understanding that they "don't count" in terms of the box's use for two-way navigation. There are quite a few other cases where links are included in a navigation box for articles that don't include that template, so there is precedent for it. However, in many cases the result is that a navbox that might look robust doesn't actually have enough "two-way" links to be useful. For example, if the navbox for a tv show contains links to the main article, an episodes list article and a bunch of cast articles, then there might be a dozen links in the box, but only two of them provide two-way navigation. So when that template comes to TFD, I'm going to !vote to delete it on the grounds that it only usefully links two articles. --RL0919 (talk) 23:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe the actors, directors, etc should be included in the film navbox or any other media box. They are not specific to the work, and are already well linked. Navigation boxes should be primarily about the media work itself. Most films don't even need navigation boxes. Characters are linked because they are specific to the work, and the articles are primarily about the work. Same with episode lists, chapter lists (for other media works), and sequels. Even the based on works. However cast/crew are very peripheral and unnecessary in the boxes. For the very first question, yes, consensus has been that they don't belong. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Actors are defined by the roles they play in the sense that those roles are what they are notable for, and without them, an article on Misplaced Pages would not be merited. Additionally, not every series has character pages, so sometimes it is more work than "just one extra click." Besides, having links to character pages doesn't take away from the actor's major contribution to the series. --Zoeydahling (talk) 00:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree. Actors are not defined solely by the roles they play, a lot of them are known for several other things, not even related to the cinema or the small screen. And every film/series article should have the main actors names on it already, so I don't see your second point. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 02:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It is a reality that many actors are associated with other actors and shows, if not "defined" by their role. Re, the "Bewitched" navbox, if someone is on Dick York 's page, is likely they will want to navigate to Bewitched, Elizabeth Montgomery, or Dick Sargent. Similarly, if someone is on the page for a lesser known actor from that show, let's say Casey Rogers, it is highly unlikely they will NOT want to link to those other actors, and having to go to the show page first defeats the whole reason for nav boxes. Assuming the section in the navbox is kept to relevant people, I really don't see the problem. In any case, I really don't see consensus here. Njsustain (talk) 12:40, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Surely they associate, but it isn't strong enough to warrant being connected at the hip to every other actor that appeared in the sereis/film in navbox. And are you saying that Montgomery's 40 other roles shown in her filmography aren't as important, and that every reader is going to want to see every actor in all of those other series/films? No, I don't think so. Actors rarely work exclusively with a select cast, which is the only strong connection I can think that would warrant a navbox, for example see {{Monty Python}}. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 14:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

99.9% of the interest in Montgomery is associated with Bewitched, and yes, I am saying that the other Bewitched actors should indeed be joined to her at the hip. Yes, I do think so! These actors do warrant being associated with each other. Agnes Moorehead said she didn't want to be remembered as the witch, but she is. Njsustain (talk) 15:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see you giving any good reason for them being connected other than you remembering them for one role. BOVINEBOY2008 :) 15:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

And I fail to see you being able to accept that other people have a different opinon than you. I do not see logical reasons behind your point of view and certainly do not see any attempt at building a consensus.Njsustain (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This kind of disagreement makes it too subjective to claim that a person is famous for so-and-so role in film or TV. This is why there is a consensus against actor templates -- actors play roles ranging from minor to major, and it would take reliable sourcing to straighten out the most prominent role. Templates don't have room for that. A media-related template is a roof that tops a house of related elements, like films in a series and a list of characters. Such elements perpetually remain under this roof, where cast and crew are not tethered to being under this roof. Use the articles themselves to outline persons' roles; a navigation template permits straightforward navigation within a specific boundary. There are enough links to cast and crew and other elements such as locations and themes and other topics dispersed throughout the article that templates do not need to be over-populated with such elements. Erik (talk) 16:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I see the potential for undue emphasis creeping in. Using Agnes Moorehead as the example from the comment above, she may be best known to some people for her work in Bewitched (and her disdain for that is irrelevant) but considering that Misplaced Pages is supposed to be written comprehensively for all readers, focussing on Bewitched diminishes the significance of her 40+ year career, her multiple Academy Award nominations, and her extensive work in theatre, film and radio. Endora may be a notable role for Moorehead, but she was involved in several notable productions where her own participation was less notable. If a nav box was created for each of these notable productions, Moorehead would be included in each one, and presumably each nav box would be added to her article. So, regardless of whether she was listed first in the credits or 25th in the credits, each nav box would be presented in her article with equal emphasis. The determination of what is notable enough for a nav box is so subjective that any popular film or television series could inspire someone to create a nav box for it. If someone wants to know who else was in Bewitched or to link to the articles for the other actors, it can be done via the Bewitched article. It's not crucial that a nav box be provided to serve the purpose. Rossrs (talk) 16:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

People keep claiming consensus has been reached despite this very long discussion. Can someone please point out exactly where there is evidence for the alleged consensus? People are making some rather aggressive changes and using this as an excuse. To me it is clear there is no consensus, so than shouldn't be used as an excuse for slash and burn and self-admitted "trigger happy" changes.Njsustain (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Actors and crew should stay out of nav boxes. It's obvious that Joss Whedon is important when you talk about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but given that his name appears on every Buffy related page there isn't a need to include him in the nav box. In addition, when an actor's only connection to another actor is one show, that's not that significant at all...not even if the show itself was a hit. If someone is on that actor's page, they're more than likely going to want to go to the show or film page before going over to another actor's page from the nav box. As such, they'd already be included on the main page anyway. In addition, if you did this for one show/film, you'd have to do it for all of them that these actors/crews appear on. Given that, you'd begin to clutter up actor and crew pages with dozens of nav boxes that do nothing but attribute insignificant connections to other people based solely on one topic.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the Joss Whedon example. The whole point of navboxes is to give a high-level picture of a subject. Is Joss not a central part of the real-world big picture of Buffy? His name won't necessarily be on all pages, for instance it's not on Buffy the Vampire Slayer filming locations except for its appearance in the navbox. -- Intractable (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It should be there, given that the lead of every Buffy related page should at least acknolwedge that the article topic is a secondary topic to Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series), which was created by Joss Whedon. So, the fact that it's not there is irrelevant to the fact that it should be there. Regardless, you still create a clutter for actor and crew pages. You cannot pick and choose favorites. If you do it for one, you have to do it for all and that would just create utter chaos on article pages where people have a dozen or more nav boxes because they're being listed simply because they worked on the project. The purpose of the nav box should be to link similar topics that are all part of a single foundation. An actor is, typically, not defined by one single entry of work but by the entire body of work. If an actor appears in some show or film and that's their only credit worth mentioning then maybe their page should be revisited by the WP:BLP to see if they actually warrant having one. If not, then you'd have to include them in any nav box for any film or TV show - which brings us back to the fact that it would create unnecessary clutter and bulk at the bottom of every page simply because someone felt the need to point out that Actor Y worked with Actor X on Show/Film B.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:52, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Karen Dotrice FAR

I have nominated Karen Dotrice for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 15:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Request for comments

There is a current request for comments at Talk:Jennifer Garner#Fashion/Style Section regarding content in the article. Comments are sought and welcome. Thank you. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

New Member

I'm new to the project, and just thought I would introduce myself. Sean (talk || contribs) 14:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Greetings. Get stuck in! Bradley0110 (talk) 12:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

GAR Notification: Stephen Colbert

Letting everyone know that a good article under the scope of this project, Stephen Colbert, is underoing an individual good article reassessment. You can see my concerns at Talk:Stephen Colbert/GA1. Thanks, Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:03, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Foreign names in filmography tables

What is the consensus on this? See Jet_Li#Filmography for example, which has the Chinese version listed even for American films. I can see having it listed in the native language as well, i.e. Chinese for Chinese movies, but other than that it looks cluttered and unnessessary. Thoughts? Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 12:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It should just list the name the article is using. If people want to see the rest of its names, they would go to the main article. This is done with articles with lists of anime/manga titles as well. The only time the original Chinese name should be used is if it has no article. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll start cleaning up the tables then. Erzsébet Báthory_{(talk|contr.)} 18:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Carey Mulligan

Carey Mulligan is currently at GAN but is in dire need of a strong copyedit. Currently, the language is all over the place; there is a heck of a lot of redundancy and unneeded fluff, some of the sources are unreliable, and the reference formatting is a nightmare. It's salvagable for GAN standards though, so if two or three other people could just do a quick copy edit, it will probably be alright. Bradley0110 (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Dann Florek a B-class?

I've noticed that Dann Florek article is rated a B-class. This clearly not a B article. Only two references and no references within the Personal life section. The lead is just about nonexistence. It's just not a B-class. I've rated a start class. —Mike Allen 23:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

GAR reviews

Hi folks. Forest Whitaker, Daniel Day-Lewis and Ben Stiller have all been brought up for good article reassessment. I have started working on the Day-Lewis article, but your assistance is needed on the others. Problems can be found on the various article's talk pages. Any assistance is appreciated! Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Elisha Cuthbert needs attention as well, as it is being reassessed. Nymf _talk/contr. 14:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

List of awards and honors

I am proposing an update to the guidelines of WikiProject Films to standardize naming awards lists. In my review of such lists, it appears that the renaming of "awards and nominations" to "awards and honors" was undone with both film articles and actor articles. It would be a good idea for standardization. Discussion is here. Erik (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth for Deborah Kara Unger

Would like another opinion in a dispute at Talk:Deborah Kara Unger. The article for a while has just included the year of birth even though many internet sites do list a full date. An editor has tried using these sites as sources but I don't consider them to be reliable sources. These are the disputed versions: . The editor has made other dob changes on other articles so it would be useful to know if the sources he is using for this information are good enough. The full discussion can be found on the article talk page. I could be wrong and applying the criteria for veriability too stringently, but would appreciate another viewpoint. Betty Logan (talk) 22:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, WT:ACTOR is a better place to notify of such discussions. :) Erik (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, film reference.com would be a good source, except no date of birth is given beyond the year, the use of which would be valid. There is no need for a c. with that date. Any published newspaper reference with the dates would okay. filmbug.com, Womencelebs.com and superiorpics.com don't meet the standards and the http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2000/feb/13/comment.akinojumu source does not give a birthdate. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

You've got to love the irony here! So should I make Filmreference the main reference and remove the Guardian reference? Is Filmreference a reliable source in just this instance because it gives its sources for her biography, or is it standard reliable source for all actors? Allmovie does the same thing, it just gives 1966 as her dob and I've seen it commented that's a reliable source so would that be a reliable source in this context too, even though it doesn't say where it gets the information from? Betty Logan (talk) 00:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, since the guardian article does not give a birthdate, it needs to go. Filmreference is an acceptable source on articles since it cites its sources. Just source 1966 (?) to it. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:31, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I've updated it as suggested. I was able to use the newspaper reference to source another part that was currently unsourced, and Filmreference is now used as the source for the birth year. Thanks for looking at it. Betty Logan (talk) 02:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Good going. If someone changes it to links that don't support it, I'd recommend WP:AIV. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:03, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Bizarre guidelines

I was just made aware of this project's bizarre guidelines, and I have to admit I'm quite curious as to why a Misplaced Pages project thinks it's in any position to override the most basic Misplaced Pages guidelines. I found a sentence here saying "Lead sentences should only include name, birth/death dates, occupation and nationality." Should they now? That's in direct oppositions to the instruction on the MOS's lead section page, saying clearly that the first sentence should tell the reader "What (or who) is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable?"

This seems a classic example of "the mouse that roared" kind of hubris – a project that starts to think it's more important than the whole encyclopaedia, while in reality it's only a very limited maintenance project. I personally, in the future, will certainly follow Misplaced Pages guidelines rather than Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers guidelines. Lampman (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"What (or who) is the subject?" is answered by the "occupation" portion of the lead sentence. Exactly why it is that they're notable is better left for the sections of more detailed prose to follow. It would be awkward to list in one sentence all the reasons why Tom Hanks or Steven Spielberg are notable and there is inevitable disagreement when trying to narrow it down to one reason for which these individuals might be "best known". Suffice it to say, Tom Hanks is an "American actor, producer, writer and director" and he is notable for his accomplishments in these occupations. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 20:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

That is your opinion, but it's not what the MOS says. Lampman (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

That may be my opinion but my opinion nor the specific guideline that you bring up here are in opposition to MOS. In this case, I think you're misinterpreting things on a very fundamental level. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 19:58, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not in direct opposition. Writing the name and occupation in particular answers the question of who the subject is and why the subject is notable, basically identifying the person as an actor or a filmmaker. Either is a public figure. Notability can be further established in the rest of the article. Why do you think there is a contradiction? Erik (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Because being an actor does not make you notable. Lampman (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"Why is this subject notable?" should not be shoehorned into the lead sentence. Casual readers couldn't care less about Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines. As Big Bird has said, the reason for notability should be made by a well-crafted and -researched lead section. Nobody here is pretending to be "in any position to override the most basic Misplaced Pages guidelines" or thinks they're "more important than the whole encyclopaedia" so please don't write sarcastic messages. Bradley0110 (talk) 20:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, I'm just saying that it conflicts with WP MOS guidelines, and you will have to take it up there if you want it changed. Lampman (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ here, both on the quote and the direction it is taken. fact, the statement supports the instructions in MOS:BIO, which specifically says:

The opening paragraph should have:

1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles));

2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death);

3. Nationality & ethnicity –

1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. (Note: There is no consensus on how to define nationality for people from the United Kingdom, which encompasses constituent countries. For more information, please see the essay "Misplaced Pages:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" and the talk page archives.)

2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

4. What the person did;

5. Why the person is significant.

The section in question actually reads:

Exclude from the lead sentence phrases that bolster a person's status beyond basic descriptions covering career that designate the person's occupation. Examples include phrases that inflate standing such as being an award winner, award nominee, one of the greatest actors/filmmakers ever, or other such highlights. Such phrases can and should be used later in the lead section in better context, such as summarizing the kinds of awards won or the kind of polls that rank a person's greatness in the film industry. Lead sentences should only include name, birth/death dates, occupation and nationality. Example: William Bradley "Brad" Pitt (born December 18, 1963) is an American actor and film producer.

• What does it say? 1. name 2. birth and death date 3. nationality 4. what the person did 5. why are they notable. How does that differ from what WP:LEAD says? X was born when and where? What do they do and why is that notable. There is nothing in that which is bizarre or attempts to override MOS guidelines.
• What does it specifically say? Don't add in awards and honors in the lead sentence.
• Why did that come about? Because multiple examples existed and in some cases still exist where the editor who is passing by adds "is an Academy Award-winning actor (or whatever)". In fact, there are no articles under this project that should imply or explicitly state that any actor, director, etc. is notable because they won an award. That is blatantly untrue. An actor, etc., is notable for his or her occupation. Notable for being in film or television. No one becomes notable after they win an award. The award comes for the person's work.

There is no presumption of overriding basic guidelines here, nor is there hubris in thinking that anything overrides Misplaced Pages guidelines. To steer articles away from POV-based statements that give undue weight to winning some given award. I'm lost as to why you think this is an example of a project that starts to think it's more important than the whole encyclopaedia or that it is bizarre in nature. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It's very simple, if you read WP:ENTERTAINER, you'll see that being an actor does not in itself make you notable. "N N (1900–2000) was an American actor." does not establish notability, and that's what the MOS demands. If you look at the examples given in MOS:BIO, you'll see that they all establish notability beyond simply mentioning profession (in the case of Cleopatra, being queen of Egypt automatically makes her notable; the same can not be said for actors). You guys are free to disagree with WP:LEAD, but you should at least have the intellectual honesty to admit so.

Actually you made me aware of another thing that is wrong with these project guidelines. They tell us to exclude from the lead sentence phrases such as "one of the greatest actors/filmmakers ever", then that "Such phrases can and should be used later". No. Such phrases should never be used anywhere. It's a classic peacock term, and goes against the very basic "show, don't tell" principle. This could be simply the result of bad writing though, and not a conscious attempt to subvert Misplaced Pages guidelines. Lampman (talk) 10:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's an attempt to subvert Misplaced Pages guidelines. The sentence reads "Such phrases can and should be used later in better context" and it's the in better context that would allow peacock terms to be weeded out. At least, I think that was the idea. I think I know how this came about, and I'll try to explain. Firstly, I agree with you that being an actor does not make a person notable but it is the core reason for the notability of most of the subjects that fall under this project. Non-notable actors don't get an article, so if you are worried that there is room for non-notable actors to slip through this loophole, I honestly don't think that was ever intended.

Some time ago, some one (or several someones) went through a large number of articles and added a laundry list of awards to the the opening sentence to create something like "Joe Blow (born November 1, 1920) is a twice-Academy Award and 16-time-Emmy Award-nominated actor." I can't think of a good example to show you. The closest I can think of is this version of the Judi Dench article If you can imagine the first two sentences combined into one, that's the type of intro that was being created for a substantial number of articles. These were gradually removed and/or reworded and in doing so, several other phrases were noted in other articles, claiming so-and-so was the "best this" or the "most acclaimed that" without context or attribution. Many contained something like "best known for his role as ...." Often this is accurate, but just as often it means this is the role best known to the editor who made the edit. This was seen as an issue of POV, and again, a lot of these were reworded. The point you are commenting on was written as a reaction to that type of article intro, and while it was intended to cover a multitude of sins, it was never intended to contradict MOS:BIO.

Meanwhile, a small number of editors began reverting back to the Judi Denchesque type of opening, (and I doubt that will ever completely stop), and the project instruction was formulated mainly so that instead of having to go over the same ground on the talk pages of numerous articles, it could be linked back to one basic comment. The intent was to stay within MOS:BIO and the notability or "what the person did" and "why the person was significant" boiled down to "was an actor". A lot of actors meet the notability requirements to have an article without having a single role or group of roles on which to hang their notability. I think this was trying to bring these articles onto a level field, and stop people from adding their favourite film performance into the opening sentence. Having said that, there are also articles that say something like "was an actor notable for his appearance in a series of film comedies during the silent era." Something that gives it further context. Is that the type of general additional information that establishes notability per MOS:BIO and that you are commenting about? If so, I think we're dealing with the problem of differing interpretations of MOS:BIO rather than an attempt to override it. If only most actors had been Queen of Egypt at some time, it would be much easier to write something specific about them to distinguish each of them from the crowd, but some of them have/had very generic careers of mediocrity - though still notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. For the most part, I think this guideline "worked" because it allowed for the relatively easy disposal of a whole lot of utter rubbish that flew in the face of other policies and guidelines, but whether it was correct is something that can be discussed further. Your last sentence and particularly "not a conscious attempt to subvert Misplaced Pages guidelines" is right on the money. Rossrs (talk) 11:52, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I think that second instance is probably just the result of unfortunate language. It says that "such phrases (like "one of the greatest actors/filmmakers ever") can and should be used later" when such phrases should in fact never be used. It would be better to say that such facts should be added later, if rewritten in a proper, NPOV manner.

As for the predicament of the inflated opening sentence, I understand that completely, but I don't think there's any point in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It should be possible to assess articles on a case-to-case basis. I came across this guideline when I was reviewing the article on Elisha Cuthbert, and suggested her role in 24 should be mentioned in the first sentence. I was told that this conflicted with WP:ACTOR's guidelines, and that it could lead to POV and OR. In this case, however, it took me about half a minute to find a reliable source connecting "Elisha Cuthbert" and "24" with the words "best known for" – not that I think anyone would seriously dispute that. Currently you have to read through five sentences, and make it to the very end of the lead before 24 is even mentioned, and this used to be a Good Article. This is simply absurd; I for one don't know Elisha Cuthbert from the Canadian children's television series Popular Mechanics for Kids.

Why does this matter? Because Misplaced Pages is there for the reader, and let's face it: most look-ups are probably of the type "where do I know him/her from". Then we should provide that information right away, not send the reader on a wild scavenger hunt through the article. In certain cases, like Leonard Nimoy or George Lazenby, the case is quite clear. For others, like Tom Hanks mentioned above, it might be less obvious (though I can't see the harm in mentioning his back-to-back Oscars for Philadelphia and Forrest Gump right away.) If the system is being abused, then that should be dealt with individually; the policies of WP:NPOV and WP:OR should apply here as everywhere else. But the solution is not to institute absolute bans that violate overriding guidelines. Then the terrorists have already won... Lampman (talk) 17:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

MOS is a guideline, not policy. Calm down. —Mike Allen 19:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I've been quite accurate with the terminology so far. Lampman (talk) 13:38, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

To quote, "you should at least have the intellectual honesty to admit so" or "The terrorist have already won". Yes, calm down please. Garion96 (talk) 14:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's keep focused on this topic. It seems like Lampman's concerns have been responded to in great detail, but he remains unconvinced. Perhaps we could select a biographical article, such as Elisha Cuthbert, to show where the guidelines may or may not work? Like what does Lampman want to do with the lead sentence that the guidelines advise against? Erik (talk) 14:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The FA of Anne Frank — who, by the way, is not an actor or a filmmaker — does not contain the lead sentence noting that she is best known for the very thing that really does make her notable. If you believe that the "best known for" phrases belong in the lead sentence for instances where the "case is quite clear", then you probably need to take this up at WP:LEAD and MOS:BIO rather than here on the basis that our guidelines differ because they are exactly the same except possibly only defined in further detail. I disagree with your reasoning that readers who come to Misplaced Pages need to be given information "right away, not send the reader on a wild scavenger hunt through the article". I, personally, think it absurd that anyone would to want to know all there is to know about an actor in the very first sentence of an encyclopedia entry. Also, anyone willing to call the remainder of a very informative article "a wild scavenger hunt" likely does not understand the purpose of an encyclopedia but that it exactly what we are. So long as the subject of an article meets the notability criteria and has an easily identifiable occupation, "most famous for" and "best known for" should never be used in any biographical article's lead sentence because it is more subjective of the author of the sentence rather than objective and informative. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 14:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? The diary is linked to in the lead. Geschichte (talk) 16:33, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

In the lead section, yes. In the lead sentence, no. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 16:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Anne Frank, for your information, passed as an FA in February 2005. Lampman (talk) 21:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The thing is Tom Hanks is a notable actor - that's why he has an article on Misplaced Pages! He's notable as an actor which is what the lede says. It's his achievements within his profession that establish that notability, but MOS doesn't say that notability has to be established in the lede. I don't think there is a contradiction here, the film guidelines are just trying to keep the detail to a minimum so there is some consistency between the articles and ensuring they don't come too bloated. Betty Logan (talk) 19:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

It does, read again. Lampman (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I really don't know how to make this any clearer:

1. WP:LEAD says notability should be established in the first sentence.
2. WP:ACTOR says notability should not be established in the first sentence ("NN is an actor" doesn't count).
3. QED mother fuckers.
   

I'm out. Lampman (talk) 21:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks like he had to resort to incivility. I think we can consider this matter closed; I advise everyone not to bother responding to him since no good would come out of it. Erik (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, what I said was not "incivil", for the following reasons:

1. "QED mother fuckers" is a long established meme, so obviously I was not suggesting that anyone here has actually had sex with their own mother.
2. Misplaced Pages is not censored, so the use of the term "mother fucker" is not in itself prohibited.
3. QED mother fuckers.

Oops!... I Did It Again. Lampman (talk) 22:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No it's not prohibited, but it shows your true character. You just can't justify calling the participants of this discussion mother fuckers with those flawed reasons. That's being flat out uncivil. Also, what did come of this, is that you have established that Misplaced Pages is not for you. So it may be best that you did leave. Auf Wiedersehen —Mike Allen 23:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No Mike, "with those flawed reasons" I really "can't justify calling the participants of this discussion mother fuckers". Please tell me what kind of reasons would justify that. Lampman (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Per Erik's suggestion, let's drop this. We're at an impasse and I doubt we'll see anything contructive come out of further debate; really it's become more of an argument. Big Bird (talk • contribs) 23:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I was ready to drop this a long time ago. I've clearly shown that I'm right, and I don't really know what else to do. Lampman (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth changes

There have been many alterations to birth dates by user Special:Contributions/Karbuncle. Many of these alterations are unsourced which leads me to wonder where he is getting the information from and whether it is accurate. I've had to revert his edits several times on the Deborah Kara Unger article because his sources were not reliable. His edits were also challenged at Joey Lauren Adams. The problem is without including sources the dates that are being replaced might be the accurate ones. The regular editors of these articles should double check any date changes. Betty Logan (talk) 16:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk show appearances in the filmography table

I see that Claire_Danes#Guest_appearances has every talk show listed that she has appeared on. As Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information, do we really need that listed? What does the consensus say? Nymf _talk/contr. 12:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not think there is precedent for it. A table is particularly unnecessary when one could instead say, "Danes has appeared as a guest on talk shows like The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Late Night with Conan O'Brien throughout her career," if anything at all. It is kind of taken for granted that celebrities do this, unless there is something significant about a particular appearance. As it stands, this takes up a great deal of space... Erik (talk) 12:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I've tidied up a couple of filmographies and removed talk show appearances at the same time. Personally I don't think they belong - an actor is notable for acting, not for appearing on talk shows. It wouldn't be appropriate to list an author's appearance for example, unless some pertinent information was revealed (but then should only be mentioned - not listed). I think what happens with actors is that initially people copy information indiscriminately from imdb and these appearances aren't removed. Rob Sinden (talk) 12:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. IMDb seems to be the main source for filmographies and they list these appearances. These appearances are primarily promotional in nature and any individual actor with a respectable career could potentially end up with a list of talk show appearances that is longer than his or her filmography. Occasionally there will be something notable (or notorious) like Madonna swearing on Letterman or Tom Cruise bouncing on Oprah's couch, that gets some wider commentary, but the appearances are rarely newsworthy or notable. Usually it's a bit of small talk and banter, flatter the host, plug the current project and exit. I don't think we need it - it's placing undue weight on an aspect of the person's career that is of little consequence. Rossrs (talk) 14:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move of multiple lists

Per the WT:FILM discussion about naming conventions for lists of awards and honors, I am requesting the move of multiple lists from "List of awards and nominations received by <film>" to "List of accolades received by <film>". The request is centralized at Talk:List of awards and nominations received by Almost Famous. I ask everyone to respond. Thanks, Erik (talk) 17:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Kevin Spacey

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns with the article which you can see at Talk:Kevin Spacey/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Famous family of actors and film maker needs clean up

Caleb Deschanel (no ref), Mary Jo Deschanel (tagged-most of content needs refs), Emily Deschanel (not tagged but details not sourced). Zooey Deschanel (has sources but needs some clean up).

It would be great if someone could clean up these 4 articles at the same time. Zooey's article has sources that could be used for the others. Any takers? FloNight♥♥♥♥ 21:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment on Biographies of living people

Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Since biographies of living people covers so many topics, nearly all wikiproject topics will be effected.

The two opposing positions which have the most support is:

1. supports the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, User:Jehochman
2. opposes the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, except in limited circumstances, User:Collect

Comments are welcome. Keep in mind that by default, editor's comments are hidden. Simply press edit next to the section to add your comment.

Please keep in mind that at this point, it seems that editors support deleting unreferenced article if they are not sourced, so your project may want to pursue the projects below.

Tools to help your project with unreferenced Biographies of living people

List of cleanup articles for your project

If you don't already have this and are interested in creating a list of articles which need cleanup for your wikiproject see: Cleanup listings A list of examples is here

Moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation pages"

If you are interested in moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation page", contact me, User talk:Ikip

Watchlisting all unreferenced articles

If you are interested in watchlisting all of the unreferenced articles once you install Cleanup_listings, contact me, User talk:Ikip

Ikip 02:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Filmography table question

Is there a standard format for the filmography tables? I've run across quite a few with some parameters that are a bit unneeded in my opinion. For example Mädchen Amick. While admittedly tidy, I think it's a bit much. Thoughts? Pinkadelica 15:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind the filmography tables, and I think that the Amick tables seem to be well-organized. My only concern is that such tables use 90% of regular font size, which to me affects general accessibility. I think that such critical tables in the article body should have consistent readability with the rest of the content. Erik (talk) 15:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)