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Chopin stars in a videogame

I wonder if any of you is aware of the fact, that a game was released, in wich Chopin is a main character. It was released on Xbox360 and Playstation 3. The game's title is Eternal Sonata. Maybe someone, with better English skills could mention this in the article.

(Sorry if I did something wrong, my first edit)--Durjódhana (talk) 16:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

They have heard of it, but to the genteel Wikipedians, video games will never be as culturally advanced as other entertainment mediums. Shikyo3 (talk) 03:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Video games can be sophisticated. Consider this eloquent monologue by a character in Half-Life 2: Episode Two, and this composition in the video game Age of Empires III.

Quarkde (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Op. vs op.

Read & edited Chopin's article & changed *Op.* to *op.* As I was working, a note arrived at my talk page, which I am pasting below together with my answer, in case anyone else questions my revision:

Hi, Frania. I've noticed this edit. Can you tell me what your rationale for decapitalising "Op." is? It is certainly usually capitalised in English language references. If there's some WP convention about it, can you point me to it? Cheers.

My answer:

I know that I must be the only person in the whole of en:wikipedia with this, so I looked it up before decapitalising *Opus* & *Op.* in order to have an immediate answer to the question I was sure would be coming! After finishing reading/editing the article, I was going to leave a note on Chopin's discussion page, but you beat me to it. I still will as I am not finished with this long article.

Please check the following:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:lcnDub8e8H0J:www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/capital.htm+should+opus+op.+be+capitalized&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Frania Wisniewska

Best regards,

Frania W. (talk) 04:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed to some degree @ Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (music)#Abbreviation of "opus". -- JackofOz (talk) 02:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

1849 Bisson daguerreotype of Chopin

If not a daguerreotype, then what? Frania W. (talk) 15:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

A photograph. I quote from the picture's caption in Jeremy Siepmann's biography of Chopin: "The only known photograph of Frédéric Chopin, often incorrectly described as a daguerreotype." --RobertG ♬ talk 15:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

A photograph in 1849? Isn't it rather a photograph taken from a now lost daguerreotype? Frania W. (talk) 16:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how to answer your question. Where did you read that it's a daguerreotype? --RobertG ♬ talk 16:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

In all the books & articles where this portrait is. What I would like to know: since this was always (as far as I know) described as a daguerreotype, from where did Siepmann get that it is not? Frania W. (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

All books & articles?! Google "chopin daguerreotype" and "chopin photograph": not a precise test, I know, but 5000 results versus 3.4 million is interesting. Don't know; not the sort of thing you write unless you think you know. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

RobertG: Encountered an *edit conflict* with you. Here is what I was trying to post:

P.S. And if it is not a daguerreotype, then Siepmann should tell us was process was used because, for a picture done in 1849, we cannot simplify the description to the word *photograph*. In the mid 19th century, there was an evolution in this new art & the new process for each step of the way had a name. Frania W. (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

No he should not - his book is a biography of Chopin, not a history of photography. "Photograph" is simply a general term: we describe images of real things, be they Polaroids, digital image files, scanned images, copied images, projected transparencies (and even perhaps daguerreotypes), all as photographs without any problems. Daguerreotype is a specific name for a specific process. If you have a reference that tells us the specific process that made this image then please name it, otherwise it's surely just a photograph. --RobertG ♬ talk 21:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

When I "find the reference that tells us the specific process..." I'll put it there. Frania W. (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure that the new photo is authentic: chopin22.jpg? Some time ago a similar picture was published in the Misplaced Pages Chopin article, and immediately retracted. The photo presented the same person from another angle. The stains witnessing the picture's 160 something years looked as if they were applied on a computer. The present picture is more professionally stained. If Chopin22.jpg is authentic, then the former was, too. But I suspect they are both faked. Actually, the first was from May 2007, and the present is just a mirror representation of the first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.161.3.173 (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is arguably A-class, and clearly well on its way to FA consideration. I have a few suggestions -- I put them in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Progone?

In the quotation from Laurencin, what does the word progone mean? I can’t find a definition anywhere on the web. MJ (t • c) 14:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

• I suspect that is likely a corruption of the word "paragon," though the source does in fact say "progone." Anyone have access to Oxford Unabridged? We should perhaps remove "progone" and replace it with "paragon" in brackets. It would read something like: "Chopin is the musical of all until now." Granted, that looks odd; maybe we should just replace the quote with a better one? Snagglepuss (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

A "progone" is the opposite of an "epigone"—the latter being "an undistinguished imitator or follower of an important writer, painter, etc." The word "progone" comes from the Greek progonos, meaning "born before."

I propose that we leave the Laurencin quotation ("Music" section) in place and add any other quotation that may be appropriate. Nihil novi (talk) 11:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the definition. I agree with the statement then, FWIW. A link to Wiktionary would be good (except that it’s not defined there yet either). MJ (t • c) 05:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

His students/pupils

This has been mentioned previously, but is there an accurate list anywhere of his students? Some people claimed to have studied under him (such as Debussy's teacher, Marie Mauté de Fleurville), but there's no evidence. Others definitely did, although in most cases their careers came to nothing. That aside, it would be good to have an accurate, referenced, list, which could also make some reference to his student genealogy (notable grand-pupils etc). Maybe a separate article would be the appropriate place. I've just come across another name I'd never heard before - Kazimierz Wernik (1828-1859), who, according to Grove V, studied with Chopin for 2 years 1846-1848. He'd be on the list. If there's no comprehensive list already in existence, I'm prepared to create one. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a worthwhile project, especially given the controversies regarding proper renderings of Chopin's works. Nihil novi (talk) 07:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Category:French people of Polish descent

How is that?

1. Chopin's father: Frenchman, born in France, emigrated to Poland.
2. Chopin: Polish, born in Poland, emigrated to France.
3. Even if Chopin took French citizenship, he cannot be classified with French people of Polish descent. He could not descend from anything Polish: he WAS Polish.
4. If Chopin acquired French citizenship, then he should be in a category named Polish people who acquired French citizenship, in which you could put Mme Curie, for instance.
5. If Chopin had had any children born in France, then his children would be *French people of Polish descent*.

Frania W. (talk) 19:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Amen. Chopin was, if anything, a Polish person of (partly) French descent. Nihil novi (talk) 05:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Even more: Chopin felt himself, during his exile's journey to France, a Pole. After the Imperial Russian Army routed some Polish November insurgents, he wrote: "May the French suffer the direst torments for not having come to our aid." (in the Polish, "Niech najsroższe męczarnie dręczą Francuzów, co nam na pomoc nie przyszli."). Mathiasrex (talk) 19:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I am perplexed at the tone of the article and of the discussion with respect to Chopin's nationality (as well as his father's, being presented as a "French-expatriate", rather than a French citizen expatriated to Poland, or similar). They appear emotional rather than objective. The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is not well supported by the quotes provided and conveys a sense of reluctance in taking French papers which is not supported by fact. Furthermore, the article does not accurately capture French law with respect to French citizenship, which was Chopin's by birth right (even though he only officialized it much later). There seems to be a tendency to want to secure Chopin as a Pole. In practice, Chopin was the result of a cultural mix, spoke both languages from childhood, held both citizenships and spent time in both countries (both as a youth in Poland and as an adult in France, to oversimplify). There is no doubt that he had very significant ties (familial, practical and emotional) to both countries - and that he both benefited and occasionally suffered from being a dual-national. He did not renounce his Polish citizenship and the Polish side of his being for officializing his French citizenship, but that does not in any manner support the tone of the article suggesting some sort of constraint and compromize... 168.103.87.121 (talk) 00:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Ergos, Colorado USA

Because I am pretty sure that there would be bruised feelings on the Polish side of the border, I have stayed away from Chopin's nationality, or should I say "nationalities", on both fr:wiki & here; and also because I believe that my arguments would be considered OR. According to the Code Napoléon, his father being French, Chopin was born a French citizen (jus sanguinis). Moreover, his mother became French at the time of her marriage to a French citizen. The passport issued to Chopin in July 1837 (footnote n° 13 in article) states de parents français (= of French parents). Consequently, this "born of French parents" would have made Chopin a dual Polish/French national at birth, ensuing that he never would have had to obtain French nationality. In all the reading I have done, I have never seen anywhere, except on en:wiki, that Chopin "became a French citizen". Some writers have Chopin a dual national, while, ignoring the Code Napoléon on nationality, encyclopedias, dictionaries etc. have him as a Pole whose father was French.

The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is wrong. If Chopin did in fact become a French citizen, where is copy of the document, the one showing that Chopin took French nationality? As a Pole, Chopin could have traveled out of France with a Polish(Russian) passport but, why should he go to the Russian Embassy in Paris (which he could never have brought himself to do!) & obtain a passport issued by the Russians when he could get one from the French government (Au nom du roi) as a French citizen ? - which is exactly what he did.

Cordialement, Frania W. (talk) 01:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Footnote 14 in lead of article directs us to the Chopin article in the much respected & often used as reference Encyclopædia Britannica, which begins as follows: "Polish-French composer and pianist of the Romantic period..."

--Frania W. (talk) 15:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Although above that it calls him just a "Polish" composer, and Larousse seems to regard him simply as Polish. We mustn't get mixed up between citizenship and nationality here - I haven't seen any evidence that he felt himself to be French.--Kotniski (talk) 16:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Please, Kotniski, give the difference between "citizenship" and "nationality" and explain that difference in the case of Chopin father & son.

Juridically speaking, whether Chopin felt himself to be French or not has nothing to do with the fact that, according to the Code Napoléon (1804), he was French because born of a French father. --Frania W. (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Well that's the difference. Citizenship is a legal matter, while nationality is something much fuzzier. I'll believe you about the Code Napoleon (though it's possible that Chopin's father may have ceased to be a French citizen at some point); I don't know what the laws on citizenship of the Duchy of Warsaw or Congress Poland were (or even if it was possible to be a Polish citizen at that time). However Chopin's Polishness (and - to my knowledge - lack of Frenchness) is not based on laws and documents, but where he felt his background and loyalties to lie. (My children are in a similar situation, so I have some experience of this - they're both British and Polish citizens by law, due to mixed parentage, but if you asked them their nationality, I'm pretty sure they'd give just one.)--Kotniski (talk) 18:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Kotniski, thank you for your reply; however, you are leaving me in the dark as to what the difference is between "citizenship" and "nationality" and as to the way the terms should be applied to Chopin father & son.

Why is it so easy to define what "citizenship" is ("a legal matter"), while you put "nationality" in the "fuzzy" department?

Can one be citizen of a country and not a national of that country?

Is not a citizen of France a French national?

Was not Chopin's father a French citizen and also a French national?

By the way, Papa Chopin never lost his French citizenship/nationality. Also, remember that Chopin's 1837 passport bears the phrase "issu de parents français", as even Chopin's mother - again because of the Code Napoléon - became French at the time of her marriage to a Frenchman.

--Frania W. (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Frania W. I suggest you read the following article: Nationality. It explains the difference between nationality and citizenship pretty well.  Dr. Loosmark  19:52, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Dr. Loosmark. Now that I have read the article, I still cannot figure out what the argument is about here: Chopin father & son: "citizens" or "nationals": c'est du pareil au même. And whether Frédéric Chopin is a "French citizen" or a "French national", it should be added, to his biography, not removed. According to the 1804 Code Napoléon in effect at the time of his birth, Chopin had the French nationality because born of a French father (jus sanguinis), no matter where in the world he was born: "un enfant né de père français est français". That clearly covers the case of Chopin.

--Frania W. (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

To Kotninski: Chopin's Polishness (and - to my knowledge - lack of Frenchness)... is not wording usually seen on someone's passport. Chopin's feelings, "Polishness or lack of Frenchness" (as you say) belong in the article itself, while his nationality or the fact that he is a Polish-French dual national belong in the lead, and should be developed at the beginning of the biography section with a footnote to the 1804 Code Napoléon with mention of the so important jus sanguinis case, that made him a Frenchman at birth.

--Frania W. (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

We have a copy of:

• Chopin's baptism certificate with mention that his father was French

I think you mean "baptism certificate", Frania. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Jack of Oz, my mistake, I meant to write "baptism certificate", not "birth". Corrected --Frania W. (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

• Chopin's 1837 French passport with mention that his parents were French

However, we have no copy of the very important document we need to prove what's written in the article about Chopin becoming French:

• Chopin's naturalisation document.

And yet, that is what we base our argument RE Chopin's supposed acquired French nationality/citizenship. In other words, we ignore what is in front of our eyes and use as proof of what we advance something that is invisible. Hm! Vous avez dit étrange?

--Frania W. (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you're still not getting the difference between nationality and citizenship. On the citizenship question, I think I'd agree that the statement about Chopin "acquiring French citizenship" may be based on an error in the source. But on the nationality question, I don't think that his using a one-year travel document issued by the French authorities (particularly if it didn't follow any conscious decision to adopt French citizenship) can be considered evidence of any kind of allegiance or feeling of belonging to France on his part.--Kotniski (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

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