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Before discussing the naming and etymology of the Byzantine Empire, please visit the relevant archived discussions.

Template:WP1.0

Map in box

I think it's problematic for a map of the Empire as it was for about fifteen years should be the map in the infobox. The empire only covered all of Italy from the end of the Gothic War in 553 until the Lombard invasion in 568. It seems perverse to illustrate the extent of an empire that lasted for a thousand years by a territorial extent it held for less than 20. I'd much prefer to use the 1045 map as the main map. john k (talk) 18:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

It is based in consensus and voting that took place about a year ago.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion from last June clearly did not result in a consensus. A majority apparently favored the 565 map, but there was no consensus, and wikipedia is not a democracy. Furthermore, the use of the Justinian map seemed to be justified on the basis that the map has to show a country at its "greatest territorial extent." I have no idea what the basis for such a claim is, but if there is a guidelines which states as much, a case like Byzantium, where the "greatest territorial extent" under Justinian applies to an empire which arguably was not yet fully "Byzantine," (Latin was still the official language, for instance) and which was both incredibly short-lived and incredibly tenuous, is one which, it seems to me, deeply implicates WP:IAR. Is there an argument for using the Justinian map other than that it represents the largest territorial extent of the empire? What is the guideline which supposedly requires that the main map for former states represents largest territorial extent? john k (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The consensus was to decide with a poll. Anyway, I do not see a point in there. Yes the Empire was not "fully Byzantine" and had never been Byzantine at all, up to 1453. The Empire was the Roman Empire and Justianian was one of its Emperors, since we're referring to the Period when the Imperial Capital is Constantinople. Last June's question was simple: include a map that shows the Empire's peak, but which peak, territorial or political? And it was decided for the territorial peak to be presented in the infobox and the political later on somewhere else in the article.--Michael X the White (talk) 13:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Alright, let me be clearer. Most historians of late antiquity would refer to Justinian's empire as the "Eastern Roman Empire." It's connections to the older Roman Empire are very clear - Latin was still the language of government and of the emperors; it still entertained ambitions of reuniting all the territories of the old empire, and made a stat at it with the reconquest of Africa and Italy; and in the east, it still comprised the whole extent of the old Roman Empire. All of this changed in the period following Justinian - the ambitions to reconquer the west were mostly destroyed by the Lombard invasion, and then again by Constans II's failures a century later; Latin was supplanted by Greek as the language of administration; and the territories in the Levant and Egypt were lost permanently due to the Islamic conquest. The state which emerged by the beginning of the eighth century was distinctly different from Justinian's empire, and is almost always referred to in the historiography as the "Byzantine Empire." Given that this article is about the whole period, the main map should be more representative of the territorial extent of the empire through the vast majority of its history, which is what the 1045 map does. And you have still not presented an argument for using the "territorial peak" - just an assertion that this is what was decided last year by a narrow majority. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, and looking at the argument from last year, I don't see any coherent arguments for the current map either. All I see is a lot of people noting that 565 is the greatest territorial extent, and then assuming that they have somehow demonstrated that this should be the map for the article. So, I'll ask again. Why are you saying that the "greatest territorial extent" should be the basis of the map? Is there a guideline or wikiproject recommendation somewhere which suggests this? Even if that were the case, I'd still say this is probably a case where we should ignore all rules and go with a more sensible map, but it would at least be more comprehensible. Either way, I'd like to understand what the argument is for requiring the "maximum territorial extent" as the basis for the map. Why is this better than, say "a map which gives some sense of the territorial extent of the empire through most of its history?" While the 1045 map is obviously just as much of a snapshot as the 565 map, it does a much better job of generally representing the extent of the empire through most of its history - the Balkans and Anatolia (with some residual territory in Italy). That more or less describes the territorial extent of the Byzantine Empire from the late 7th century until the early 14th century (with the exception of the Italian territories, which were lost in the eleventh century). Egypt, Syria, North Africa, Spain, and most of Italy were all lost within a century of the current map, and, with the exception of parts of southern Italy and northern Syria, never recovered. Why is it useful to our readers to suggest a Byzantine Empire much larger than it was for the vast majority of its history? john k (talk) 13:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

To use 'a high-watermark map' in a 'historical nation-article' is widely the common form here in Misplaced Pages AFAIK. It's not a official policy but rather a custom (as in tradition). Please take a look at Roman Republic, Roman Empire, Arsacid Empire, etc. All of them show the subject at the point of its maximum territorial extent regardless if it was a temporary fluke (an exception). Can you (john k) give us a good reason why we shouldn't follow this custom in this article also? If your basic arguments are more or less that "the Byzantine Empire was (after Justinian) not Roman enough for me" and "this empire should be shown with its (so-called) traditional territories" then please propose a change. I know that I will vote against it (and if I'm mistaken with my assumptions about your reasoning then I apologize). And yes you are quite correct: Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, but it also isn't a dictatorship. Flamarande (talk) 18:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

A third possibility is to have the map in the infobox show a limited number of different historical boundaries of the empire during its long life span, for instance those of 565, 1045, and 1360. A reworking of the present map in this direction would, in my opinion, add to its informative quality. Iblardi (talk) 19:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If I may quote a historian: "When exactly 'Byzantine' begins and 'late Roman' ends is a moot point. Some prefer to use 'Byzantine' for the eastern part of the Roman Empire from the time of Constantine I, that is to say, from the 320's and 33o's, other apply it to the Eastern empire from the later fifth or sixth century, especially from the reign of Justinian (527-565). In either case, the term 'Byzantine' legitimately covers the period from the late Roman era on, and is used to describe the history of the politics, society and culture of the mediaeval east Roman Empire until its demise at the hands of the Ottomans in the fifteenth century." - John Haldon in 'Byzantium a history' ISBN 0-7524-2343-6 page 9, chapter Introduction.

In my personal interpretation: there is no clear point where one (Eastern Roman Empire) ended and the other (Byzantine Empire) started. There is a difference between the two but cultural transformations take decades and centuries and depend largely upon the viewer's opinion and interpretation. The ancients themselves never had a official ceremony that we could use (as when Mao declared the official start of the Peoples Republic of China). Historians acknowledge this fact with the Byzantine Empire. Flamarande (talk) 19:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I explained my reasons - that the current map is misleading, because the Byzantine Empire lasted for over one thousand years and lost most of the territories depicted on the map quite early in its history. Roman Empire does depict a brief ephemeral set of borders, and I'd say that we should probably instead do a map which doesn't include Mesopotamia, whose "conquest" by Trajan lasted about two years, but at least in that case the difference between the map and the long-standing borders of the Roman Empire for four centuries are not particularly great. A couple of years after this map became operative for the possibly-not-yet-Byzantine-Empire, they lost most of Italy. A few decades later they lost Egypt, the Levant, North Africa, and their foothold in Spain. They never regained any of these territories (except some border regions in southern Italy and Syria). The Empire then existed for 800 years, never controlling any of these territories again. The 1045 map is better because it represents the greatest extent of the Byzantine Empire after it lost its Roman accoutrements. Justinian's Empire was more a late and temporary revival of the Roman Empire than the "height" of the Byzantine Empire, and as such its territorial extent is more in the nature of a shadow of the old Roman Empire than a good representation of what the Byzantine Empire was about. Looking at other examples isn't very useful, simply because few other empires have undergone the massive kind of territorial recentering that the Byzantine Empire experienced. I find it weird that I have to keep on explaining this, while being accused of not providing any reasons for what I want to do. Obviously you disagree with me, but I have difficulty understanding how anyone could be in much doubt about the basis for wanting a map showing the later period. And I already proposed what I think should be done - use the 1045 map. I would be open to Iblardi's suggestion of a map showing the empire's extent at different periods. And again, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that Justinian's empire is often considered to be part of the Byzantine Empire. I just think the uncertainty of the transitional period of the sixth century gives us reason to be cautious about using that map as the main one. Obviously, a map of Justinian's conquests ought to be included somewhere within the article. john k (talk) 21:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

In this article, what is described with the term "Byzantine Empire" is the Roman Empire after its capital was transferred to Constantinople. So Justinian's map is fine. What you're suggesting is a new view that this article should have, about linking what is described here to the Greek language and tradition. It is not about the map, it is about the article. The present definition of the map is in perfect accordance to the article.--Michael X the White (talk) 13:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

This is pointless. The point isn't that Justinian's Empire wasn't the Byzantine Empire. It certainly fits under the definition of the Byzantine Empire given in this article, which is a perfectly acceptable definition. The point is that the territorial extent of Justinian's Empire is not representative of the territorial extent of the Byzantine Empire for the vast majority of its existence. john k (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

As I said: To use 'a high-watermark map' in a historical 'nation-article' is AFAIK the common form here in Misplaced Pages. It's not a official policy but rather a custom (as in tradition). Please take a look at Roman Republic, Roman Empire, Parthian Empire, etc. All of these articles (and only god knows how many more) show the subject (nation) at the point of its maximum territorial extent regardless if it was a temporary fluke (an exception). Why shouldn't the Byzantine Empire-article do the same? Flamarande (talk) 15:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

All the articles you note have "high water marks" that are reasonably representative of the territorial extent of the empire through most of its history. This isn't true for Byzantium. I have been trying throughout this discussion to explain why I think this is not appropriate for the Byzantine Empire, and why an exception should be made, but nobody seems to actually be following my argument. And there are wikipedia articles that are exceptions. For example, we have Grand Duchy of Hesse and Kingdom of Saxony, which distinctly do not show those states' territories at their largest territorial extents (during the Napoleonic period), but rather their borders for most of their history in the long nineteenth century. john k (talk) 17:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Byzantium, the difference between the (short) "high water mark" and the average size is indeed exceptional, with the empire of Justinian being about three times at large as the much more stable medieval one, and the 565 map alone does not give an accurate idea of the true extent of the empire through most of its history. I think that tradition is in itself not a good argument, but if conventions are to be given any weight, I can point to the practice of showing several phases in one map which I referred to above. Typically such a map would show the empire both at its late antique and medieval zenith. An example, which includes the phase of decline in the 14th century, can be found here: . I do not see why we would have to choose between either map A or map B. Iblardi (talk) 19:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

How about something like this? Image:Byzantium_Location_550_1025.svg Varana (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It's quite nice, although the light green is a bit composite, and does not reflect any actual historical extent (the gains in Armenia occurred in 591, after most of Italy and much of Spania had been lost) Constantine ✍ 15:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. What do you mean by "composite"? For the extent of Justinian's empire, I used this map. If that's wrong, I'll change mine. Varana (talk) 16:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thought as much. Lazica was actually almost fully separated from the rest of the Empire. If you want an accurate eastern border for 565, take a look here and here. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 20:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The composite map looks good to me, pending any modifications for strict accuracy. john k (talk) 20:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it should remain as it is. As Flamarade said, it is common for maps of Empires to show the Empire's greatest territorial peak (that's partlu what Empires are about isn't it?). Other maps can be added somewhere else inside the article.--Michael X the White (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we are all aware that it is common for maps of states to show the state's greatest territorial extent. I'm not sure how empires are "partly about" that, though. Is the Roman Empire's two year possession of Mesopotamia really sufficiently important that we need a map which shows it? And, as I've noted before, the Byzantine Empire is a special case, in that it's territorial peak is dramatically larger than its extent through the vast majority of its history, and also occurred near the beginning of a very long history and was never repeated. We ought to be flexible, rather than adhering blindly to a "rule" which isn't even a rule. john k (talk) 14:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not changing my opinion, BUT Image:Byzantium_Location_550_1025.svg or a similar image is a good idea as far as I am concerned. Varana idea is IMHO simply brilliant. It shows the 'core territories' and the 'maximum expansion watermark' at the same time. As a matter of fact I had a similar idea some time ago and proposed a replacement (at the Roman Empire-talkpage) by a map which showed the transitory nature of the most eastern conquests of Trajan (you know, the couple provinces which were held only for 3 years or something like that). The current image was added later and gives a lot of info so replacing it would be unwise. The only wish that I have (a wish and not condition) concerns the colour (never satisfied). The main/traditional/core territories could be in purple and the lost territories should be in a lighter tone of purple (does anyone remember my 'imperial purple' proposal?). As far as the precise borders between the two are concerned I only wish to point out that Sicily was held by the Byzantine Empire for a long amount of time (I would show Sicily as a part of the core territory but I'm probably mistaken). Flamarande (talk) 20:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Sicily, since we are showing the two points of maximum extent (565 and 1025 or 1045) and not "core territories" (since then most of Armenia and much of the Balkans should be left off), it is a bit complicated. The island had been lost since 912, and only a part was temporarily recovered by Maniakes in ca. 1040. Since evidence suggests that it was lost again after 1043, it shouldn't be in the map for neither 1025 nor 1045. Constantine ✍ 20:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Changed the colours a bit (still green, I can do a purple version tomorrow) and corrected the Eastern frontier; I hope it's reasonably accurate for the scale of the map (link the same as above; you might need to reload (F5) the page). On Sicily, see Constantine's remarks - I used the borders of 1025, and Sicily was not Roman then. The idea to have a combined map was Iblardi's, not mine. :) I do like the idea, though, as I basically agree with John that Justinian's Empire is not really representative. (And yep - while the Roman Empire map is a beautiful and informative one, the Mesopotamian provinces are a bit unfortunate.) Regards, Varana (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I just wish to point out that you're not forced to use my "purple proposal" at all. Another (perhaps even better yet) idea is a map that changes in chronological fashion (decreasing, expanding, decreasing, and ending in 1453). I don't know how to make one (yet) and it is just an idea. Yes, I'm ashamed to confess that I somehow only noticed and understood Iblardi proposal now (no net connection yesterday).

Quoting: "A third possibility is to have the map in the infobox show a limited number of different historical boundaries of the empire during its long life span, for instance those of 565, 1045, and 1360. A reworking of the present map in this direction would, in my opinion, add to its informative quality. Iblardi (talk) 19:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)" Flamarande (talk) 22:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Didn't this article, and Roman Empire, and probably others, have animated maps at some point? Where did they go? Adam Bishop (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't understand that Iblardi could also have meant an animated map. Yes, it did have one at some time, though I don't know when they were removed (the German articles still use them, even at the top: Byzantine Empire and Roman Empire. Maybe this would be an even better solution for the box; it would at least be nice to reinstate the animated maps somewhere. Varana (talk) 14:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC) This and also this are also animated maps. (I'm not really suggesting here we change the infobox map to one of these, I'm only mentioning them.) Cody7777777 (talk) 17:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

An animated map was not what I had in mind, but I have no problems with using the one mentioned. I think Varana's second 565/1025 map is fine too. Iblardi (talk) 19:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You didn't? Well you're still getting the credit for the idea (not my fault :). Flamarande (talk) 20:58, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The only animated map I know of is on the Ancient Rome article. Although the 565 map seems to be in favour - and I do support it in favour of the 1045 map - I feel that a c.600 AD map maybe should be shown. Emperor Maurice pushed the eastern frontier substantially east in his agreement with Khosrau II. Despite the erosion of imperial control in Italy, I think the favorable situation in the east easily compensates. Either way, I think a 600 map should at least be in the article. --Tataryn77 (talk) 00:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

If we are going to use a "chrono map" how should we proceed?

There seems to be a general agreement for the use of a "chrono map" (a map which shows the changing borders of the BE and ends in 1453) in the infobox. So how are we going to do it? Here is my proposal in the form of a step-by-step list (feel free to point out anything I missed) Flamarande (talk) 21:35, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

1. We have to agree upon a beginning (the end is probably easy (1453 ?) but the beginning... perhaps Tetrachy?)
2. We have to collect acceptable maps and gather them here in this talkpage and organize them in a chronological order. Colours don't matter but accurate borders are a must - a minor wrong map can be gathered but its mistakes must be clearly pointed out for correction in step 4).
3. We should agree upon the most important cities of the empire (Constantinople, Rome, Alexandria, Carthage, Antioch, Thessalonica, Nicea, more?). The future maps will show the location of these cities.
4. Afterwards we have to use a template (a large "original map" which will be changed into several new ones, copying the borders of the collected maps - and correcting any mistakes).
5. Every new map will clearly state its respective date (perhaps on the lower left corner?).
6. All the new maps should use the same colour (I'm in favour of 'light purple' but I don't speak for all of you) for an easy understanding.
7. All the new maps have to uploaded into Media wiki (using simple names - eg: ByzantineEmpireMap1050.jpg)
8. Someone has to create, in Media wiki, a "chrono map" (I think that I can pull this off)
9. We replace the current map in the infobox

For a beginning, I'd say 395. If we pick the Tetrarchy (or rather 330), then we'll have the entire Roman Empire. As for the end, in 1453 there isn't much to show, so, depending on the scale of the map, it may be problematic. At any rate, the "Byzantine" successor states (Epirus and Trebizond) must also be shown. For dates, I'd suggest 395, 565, 717, ca. 920, 1045, 1180, 1261, 1350, 1453. I also have an extensive collection of maps from various scholarly sources in my PC. Anyone interested just send me an email. Constantine ✍ 23:33, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

395, 565, 717 seem good to me as well. Do we have a map of the 920s somewhere, or would it show something more interesting compared to c. 867? I concur with the later dates.

As for cities - Constantinople, Rome, Carthage, Alexandria, Thessalonica. Antioch maybe. Nikaia would be too close to Cple., I think, for the scale of the map.

I would favour bright land (e.g. a pale yellow like some existing maps) and a darker purple (maybe similar to the Western Empire's colour in this map, to produce a nice contrast necessary for the later stages when Byzantine territory was small.

The current animated maps are GIF animations. Does Wiki now provide the means to create animated graphics by itself? (What is Media wiki? Commons?)

P.S. Was Lazica Byzantine by 565? The maps differ, but it seems to have been a vassal state after the 562 peace. Similarly with Croatia under Basil II or in 1045 - mark it as "Byzantine" or not? Varana (talk) 09:49, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

According to Vasiliev, who refers to an account by Menander Protector, Lazica was "resigned" to the Byzantines by the Persians in the peace treaty of 562. It is also depicted as being under Byzantine rule on the 565 map of the New Penguin Atlas of Medieval History. I'm not sure about the status of Croatia. Iblardi (talk) 21:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

In case we're going to use an animated map, in my opinion it should start with the tetrarchy (I don't think that showing more information is bad, it can help the readers understand the empire's evolution from the whole empire, and the article starts anyway before 395, and the Eastern Roman emperors, after the assassination of Julius Nepos in 480, claimed to rule the entire Roman Empire), and it should show initially the whole Roman Empire, separated through a line when it was divided. I think following dates should be included 286, 330, 395, 480, 565, 717, 920, 1045, 1180, 1205, 1261, 1350, 1453. Cody7777777 (talk) 06:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the choice of years, I know my response may be late but i think making a map of 565 AD and then jumping to 717 AD is wrong because it skips almost 200 years of political maps, there should be a pre-arab conquest map and a post arab conquest map so i think adding political maps of the empire by 626 AD and 650 AD are perfect, then adding the 717 AD map. Justinian43 (

I agree that the dates 626 and 650 should also be included in an animated map. Cody7777777 (talk) 14:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Change of Greek to forefront of the infobox

At first I was leery of this change as a Latin title would be easier to read first off, but then I thought about it, and I support the change. The Greek language was officially the language of the Byzantine Empire for a majority of the time, so it makes sense. Monsieurdl 22:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Mamluk Sultanate and the Byzantine connection

I added the Mamluk Empire to the infobox because a portion of the Empire was a protectorate under control of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia that was conquered by the Mamluks. Control of this territory was not conquered by the Ottomans until after the fall of the Empire. Since the articles on both the Mamluks and the Beiji dynasty do not include the loss of Cilicia to the Ottoman Empire in 1474, it was overlooked. I hope this is acceptable to all- I would be happy to provide sources and referencing if necessary. Monsieurdl 16:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

No doubt, but the successor states are usually those that directly conquered territory or seceded from another state. Cilicia was both de facto and de jure independent from the Byzantines long before the Mamelukes conquered them. The Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia itself is a far better candidate for a "successor" than the Mamelukes. However, we should avoid cluttering the infobox, and since ultimately all these areas were conquered by the Ottomans, we don't really lose anything in accuracy. PS, Wallachia IMO is also extremely questionable, it should go. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 18:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

In that case, maybe a reduction to just the Ottoman Empire might be best? I was originally going to put the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, but it was extinguished over a full century before the fall of Constantinople. I thought it best to go with the Mamelukes, but your thought on not cluttering the infobox may be the best route. Monsieurdl

18:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Personally, keeping just the Ottomans and Venice would be fine. These were the two major successor powers, and the only ones who ruled directly from their conquest of Byzantine possessions until the early modern era. A case for the Byzantine successor states might also be made, for although their survival post-1453 was limited to a few years, Trebizond at least led a practically independent existence for well-nigh three centuries. However, before we do this, we should perhaps solicit some opinions from the other contributors, lest this turns into the usual revert mess. Constantine ✍ 18:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! I'll set it up now to solicit opinion on the matter. Monsieurdl

18:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Support for reducing number of successor states in the infobox

As there are so many successor states that were left upon the dissolution of the Byzantine Empire, we should pare down the number of states in the infobox to the Ottoman Empire and Venice. I support this change as it reduces clutter and leaves the major states involved. We could always include a section detailing each successor state within the article if enough support is out there for it. Monsieurdl 18:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support per above. It might be also a good idea to create a list of the various successor states, and give it after the Ottomans & Venice. Constantine ✍ 18:58, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose, the current list of successors was discussed earlier on the talk page based on a criteria described there (please check the earlier discussions there). I think that it makes sense including the Empire of Trebizond, the Despotate of Morea and the Balkan Orthodox states, which had the same religion, a similar culture and took many elements from the empire's administration. Cody7777777 (talk) 06:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Infoboxes are bad enough as it is when it comes to accuracy of information. Having read the proposal, I still can not think of any valid reason why correct data should be omitted. --DIREKTOR 09:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

That is why originally I wanted to add the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia to the list as it was a Byzantine protectorate and shared strong ties with them. I was just trying to respect the continuity of the "successor" idea- that area was in fact still under Mamluk control after the fall of Constantinople, and if the Ottoman Empire is included, along with these other little states, then to be technically correct, the Mamluk Empire must be added. I thought it to be easier just to pare it down rather than to get into a slugging match over these kinds of things. Monsieurdl

14:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The criteria decided earlier on which successors should be included, was largely based on: surviving until the year 1453, having the same religion, similar culture, having similar organization and administration, and also having controlled some parts of the territory which was once part of the empire. The only exception for Islamic states was the Ottoman Empire, because, at least partially, their culture and organization also had more influences from the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire than other islamic states, the Ottoman sultan also claimed the title "Kayser-i Rûm" and they also had a larger (Eastern) Orthodox Christian population (called "Rum" or Romans in the islamic world) than other islamic states at that time (the Mamluk Sultanate had more miaphysite Christians). Venice was also included because it appeared as the result of a rebellion against the empire. Although, personally I don't really have too much problem with the inclusion of the Mamluk Sultanate, adding other islamic successor states could become necessary in that case, so I still think it is better to avoid including additional islamic states. Cody7777777 (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

How shares the "League of Lezhe", a loose confederation of Albanian clans, a "similar organization and administration" with the Byzantine Empire? Wallachia didn't even break away from the Byzantine Empire, why is it counted as a "successor"? Ragusa - Catholic, not Orthodox, and likewise very weak similarities in organization at best. Even with the criteria above, we can boil down the list to the Ottomans, Trebizond, Morea, Serbia, and Venice.

Edit: Generally, support, reduce the list as much as possible. I second the sentiment expressed by some in this discussion that Infoboxes should be as succinct as possible; they can and should generalize. Details belong to the article, nowhere else. Varana (talk) 23:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

About the Republic of Ragusa, I agree it is better to remove it (in fact, it was not even added when the above criteria was suggested) and perhaps the League of Lezhe can be removed as well (although I am still not very sure about that, since I think we should not consider the organization of the confederation, but the organization of the principalities that formed that confederation, and there may have been some influences in the organization of some of them). However, especially as long as Serbia is mentioned, Wallachia should also be mentioned. The following books also support the mention of Wallachia as a successor state (and the rulers of Wallachia also helped economically the Ecumenical Patriarchate in administrating the Christian communities in the Ottoman Empire (the Rum Millet) longer than Serbia, and they also imitated the Emperors of Constantinople). Also, the list does not necessarily include only break-away states (for example, the Ottoman Empire, did not start as a break-away state), it includes states which had controlled before 1453, parts of the empire's territory (Wallachia did controlled earlier before 1453 the region of Dobruja south (or east) of the Danube), and actually, during the time of Constantine I, the Empire also extended into territories North of the Danube which later became Wallachia(), and the empire's influence North of the Danube, appears to have been maintained until Justinian I(,). Cody7777777 (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

• Infoboxes must burn in hell. Support complete removal of this entry from the box. A process as complex as the dissolution of the empire simply cannot be represented well in this fashion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
• Remove infobox. The Ottoman Empire is the clear successor state. Perhaps the Holy Roman Empire too. The Roman Empire is not a predecessor state, they are the same frigging state, but can't trust the mass hordes of enthusiasts not to re-add it. The mass-hordes can't be trusted with infoboxes on popular articles like this in general .... so they should be banned. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Can we please leave wiki-politics out of this? For better or worse, infoboxes are a standard, and even required, feature in articles. And since merging this page into an enlarged Roman Empire article would not only let loose all kinds of trouble, but also contravene established conventions, the link back must stay, no matter what the Empire truly was (we've been through this issue in the naming dispute already). Again, while I agree with Fut Perf that "A process as complex as the dissolution of the empire simply cannot be represented well in this fashion", the feature is there, and is used in every other article too. Constantine ✍ 12:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Wiki-politics? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Incidentally, our civilization has a convention of early modern origin distinguishing the Roman Empire before c.330–800 period with the Roman Empire afterwards, calling the latter "Byzantine". That kind of thing happens and is fair enough, and we have a separate article. However, the hordes won't understand that it is just a convention, as many such things are. You could remove it from the i-box, but it get put back in. Thus the hordes can't be trusted to use infoboxes, and so the article would benefit from not having one ... 'tis all me is saying. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 12:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, the predecessor should be described in the infobox as "Ancient Roman Empire", which currently is a redirect to Roman Empire (actually, in my opinion, the current Roman Empire article should be renamed as Ancient Roman Empire, and a new article called Roman Empire be made which would offer short overviews for all of its periods). Cody7777777 (talk) 22:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is about the successors and not about the predecessors. Reduce the successors to 'Ottoman Empire', 'Empire of Trebizond', and 'Despotate of the Morea' (shouldn't it be 'Despotate of Morea'?). Flamarande (talk) 08:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, so far the opinions expressed tend to favour the retention of Trebizond and the Morea (yes, it is "the Morea" or "the Peloponnese", just as properly it used to be "the Ukraine"). What about Venice? In many ways, it is a direct offspring of Byzantium, its activity was to a very large extent focused in Greece, and for long it was the main antagonist to the Ottomans over control of formerly Byzantine territories. Constantine ✍ 11:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with Venice as a successor. Venice neither conquered/replaced the Byzantine Empire (as the Ottoman empire did) and it wasn't a Byzantine remnant either (like Trebizond and Morea). Flamarande (talk) 11:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Republic of Venice, I agree that it can be removed. I would propose the earlier criteria with a few modifications: surviving until 1453, rulers consider themselves heirs of the emperors, have the same religion (except the Ottomans), have occupied before 1453 parts of the empire's territory and have similar culture, organization (this actually also implies autocracy, despite the fact that the empire in earlier times called itself a "Republic") and administration. This way the Republic of Venice, League of Lezhe and the Republic of Ragusa could be excluded (leaving the Ottoman Empire, Trebizond, Morea, Serbia, Wallachia). (I should also add, that personally I don't have any problem with the current list which was stable enough for some time, and perhaps it should be noted that currently there are other articles' infoboxes, which include longer lists of successors, like in the case of the articles Holy Roman Empire, First French Empire, Austria-Hungary, Russian Provisional Government, Nazi Germany, Soviet Union and probably others.) Cody7777777 (talk) 10:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

@Flam, actually, the discussion is about both. @ The three of you, all these lists are too arbitrary. It's best not to have a successor/predecessor box at all. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

• • • • I know and appreciate your opinion. However, given that the infobox will be there for the foreseeable future, let's try to make the best of it. PS, the "wiki-politics" referred to the "Infoboxes must burn in hell" slogan. Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words on my part. Constantine ✍ 12:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

All I was trying to do was to include factual material in the infobox, not to bring a 'horde' mentality. We're discussing things here and rendering a consensus- and I completely understand that the Roman Empire most certainly is not a predecessor state- they were divided of course. Monsieurdl

14:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I of course wasn't suggesting the complete removal of the whole box. My position is just that boxes should be restricted to those pieces of information that are simple and straightforward enough to be appropriately displayable in tabulated form. Anything that requires explanation to be properly understood shouldn't be in a box. As for the argument that some link back to Roman Empire must be present, that can easily be put into the timeline, along with the Ottoman Empire. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

So, it is agreed that the successor/predecessor bit of the infobox should go then? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I support the removal of the predecessor/successor section- sounds like a winner to me. Monsieurdl 11:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the removal of these sections is not a very good idea (since most infoboxes of historic states usually include such sections, and they'll probably get re-added later anyway). As I said before, in case the current lists are changed, I would support the following lists "Predecessors: Ancient Roman Empire, Successors: Ottoman Empire, Empire of Trebizond, Morea, Serbia, Wallachia" (based on the criteria described above). Cody7777777 (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

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