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Toddst1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I've noticed that the administrator Toddst1 has been quite rude and aggressive on a number of occasions.

The latest, rather disturbing, comments I've noticed are:

WP:ANI

• On an AN/I thread, he accused an editor who posted a problem with wikihounding of "tattling".
• On the same AN/I thread, when myself and Burpelson AFB expressed our concern at the comment, he wrote that we were "full of it", in both the edit summary and in the comment.

User talk pages

• To me:
  • Overly aggressive comment when I unblocked a user
    • Starts with "unfuckingbelievable" ...
    • Then changes mind and changes to "Your action there seems rather more of a Kumbaya than that of a responsible admin."
  • Accusation of wheel warring, when no such thing occured
  • Later the edit summary of a new response reads "You're a newly recycled admin so I'd strongly recommend that you not overrule, revert or second guess other admins until you come back up to speed on stuff" in the edit summary. The comment he made was "I opened this conversation with a sarcastic, cynical comment about you perhaps having naively optimistic views of the world and human nature, so I won't go there again. You're a newly recycled admin so I'd strongly recommend that you not overrule, revert or second guess other admins until you come back up to speed on stuff. Cheers."
• Accused Jayjg of edit warring on JLS, when it was pointed out that Jay was actually deleting a repeatedly readded article One Shot (JLS song), he wrote "You should know that admins are not exempt from edit warring and some edit summaries would sure go a long way.", with the edit summary "t admins are not exempt from edit warring. Edit summary much?"

Unblock requests

• "Find somewhere else to harass others and blame them for your problem."
• "No fucking way"

Accusations of sock-puppetry with no real evidence

• "I'm not sure whose sock it is, but it's a sock of someone"
• "Wikipedian7878 (talk · contribs) fails the WP:Duck test. I'll beat you to your point that so far they haven't been disruptive." In this case, the editor he was comparing to a sock-puppet had 3 edits...

I have made a polite note on his talk page after I received the aggressive comment on my userpage (see User talk:Toddst1#Incivility), but his only response was that "You made a bad unblock and I called you on it. Take it to ANI. I'm not gonna sugar coat it for another admin."

I am therefore filing an etiquette request, especially as this contributor is an admin, who I would have thought should be editing more harmoniously. Certainly the abusive comments I received on my talk page were both surprising and unwelcome. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 07:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Response from Toddst1

Regarding the "No Fucking Way" response to an unblock request by Fuckingeveryone (talk · contribs): Yes, I used a bad word. I'm sure I didn't offend the delicate sensitivities of that vandalism-only account editor though. I think I had a pretty good discussion with the person I believe to be Fuckingeveryone's sockpuppet about that response right here: User_talk:Toddst1#....

Regarding my interaction with Tbsdy_lives on either his or my talk page, All of those diffs are obviously true. However, what isn't apparent is how many of them were immediately retracted and/or restated. If you look, many of them were. I'm not going to go through them 1 by 1. Frankly, I was pissed off that Tbsdy_lives had been following me around (WP:HOUND?) after we disagreed about whether it was appropriate to bring a complaint ("tattling") to ANI without first discussing the issue on the user's talk page. See the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Ani#Unknown_Lupus. I could have chosen my words better.

Am I cynical? Often. Am I sarcastic? Sometimes. This isn't first grade and gosh, I've heard a few naughty words here and there on Misplaced Pages. I've even used a few myself.

Regarding the assumptions of bad faith regarding sockpuppetry: Sorry, we have the WP:Duck test for a reason and we have WP:SPI and WP:CU for reasons too. All are appropriate in context. If you disagree with the duck test, fine. I know there are those like Xeno (talk · contribs) who think it should never be used or at least that I misapply it. Is it bad faith to use the duck test? No.

Much of this seems to be a carryover from a discussion brought to Misplaced Pages:AN#Admin_decision_review after Hipocrite (talk · contribs) raised concerns about a number of administrative decisions made by Tbsdy_lives yesterday.

Whatever the course, I take responsibility for my actions. Toddst1 (talk) 08:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This isn't first grade and I take responsibility for my actions don't actually go together. A person doesn't have to be a first grader to appreciate civility. Inappropriate language is an offense to the entire Misplaced Pages community, not just the person you're directing it. I'd appreciate Toddst1 would refrain from similar language in the future. Thanks. Gerardw (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Toddst1 thinks I was following him around. That isn't the case, if he had bothered to ask me politely I would have told him this. Todd, I'm sorry you think this, but I didn't override your decision - I merely noticed that the editor had been blocked (can't recall why I saw it) and I thought that it would be assuming good faith to allow them to make their username change. Many others might disagree with me (and in fact they have), but they have all done this politely and courteously.

With regards to the tattling comment, I asked you a very polite question which you took badly. In no way was I stalking you, as your comment was made on WP:AN/I, which I now frequent often, as I am an administrator. I'm sorry if you took it personally, but that wasn't the intent. I was certainly not expecting to be told to "ake it to ANI. I'm not gonna sugar coat it for another admin"! I was merely asking why you used this comment, especially against an editor who merely stated their concern that, ironically, they were being hounded. Something I note that you seemed to taken a dim view of because they didn't take it to the other user's talk page. Oh but that you would have done the same for me.

I would appreciate it if you assumed good faith, none of this has been taken here because of Hipocrite's concerns. I was merely a bit shocked that another admin would post such a rude and aggressive comment on my talk page. I've noticed your comments all over AN/I, and I have a genuine concern over your abrasive behaviour.

As for retracting or restating your comments, apart for the one that you replaced with an equally abusive "kumbayar" comment, I'm not certain which ones you are referring to. Could you give some diffs? Perhaps I didn't notice these - they would certainly go some way to reassure me that you are trying to deescalate situations and act in a courteous and respectful manner towards myself, which is what I would have expected from an administrator. Certainly the messages on my talk page haven't reflected this, which to my mind is somewhat unsettling. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Observation by NJA

Whilst I hope it wasn't your intention, I believe that claiming (mere minutes after notification) that the admin who filed this report had violated WP:EW is slightly vindictive, and only exasperates the situation. I've commented on why I don't really agree with what you said, though in summary consistent removal of cited material and major changes to an article where the editor may have a conflict of interest is something most experienced editors would revert when talk page discussion isn't taking place.

Regardless, perhaps we can just admit some mistakes may have been made, and get on with things? NJA (t/c) 09:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

My goodness... I can't believe that Todd did that! I'm gobsmacked. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I agree that I have indeed made mistakes, and will unfortunately probably continue to make more (which is a great pity). In particular, my AFD closure after a closure Jay made could have definitely been handled better. But the unblocking of the editor to allow them to request a username change was not something that I consider to be a mistake. On Misplaced Pages we try to give editors a chance to edit, and we do not act as badly as the trolls and vandals who frequent this site. I considered that they may have some IPs autoblocked and they may indeed want to edit constructively. A fond hope, probably to be dashed, but as I put some provisos into my unblock comments I don't feel that I was terribly unwise, as I gave them a very short leash. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 09:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Response to NJA & Tbsdy's later comment posted at User_talk:Toddst1#Edit_warring.3F. Toddst1 21:50, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Which is now archived. Please make your comments here please, you have not addressed any of these concerns and you show no signs of changing the manner in which you interact with others. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 23:39, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Outside opinion

My understanding is that Tbsdy has been an admin since 2007 but has been inactive until quite recently. I would like to suggest that coming back to an environment where procedures have changed to some degree, and immediately plunging into conflict with multiple other administrators, is a bad sign. Until he has a better sense of how things work he should avoid undoing the actions of other admins without consultation, and when conflicts arise he should assume that he is wrong. Otherwise these learning experiences will not produce any learning. There has already been talk of a recall, and there will be more if this pattern continues. Looie496 (talk) 16:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The only thing that I've made a real mistake on so far is the AFD closure. There will be no recall, as I haven't put myself forward for this, however if my conduct is in question others should feel free to put forward an RFC. The only talk of a recall, incidentally, was by Hipocrite. I have been more active recently, however I have been using this account for about a year and a bit now. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 19:34, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I also note that this editor has not commented on Todd's behaviour. I would appreciate feedback on this. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 01:24, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Unacceptable response

I'm afraid that I don't believe that Todd's response is acceptable. I have asked for an apology on his user talk page, he is refusing. I don't think I'm out of line here, especially as he has accused me of edit warring, when this is not the case. He has also accused me of errors of judgment, but in each case (with the exception of the AFD) the discussion on the admin noticeboard has been archived with the general agreement that this is not the case.

In particular, I would now like him to apologise for accusing me of edit warring, which was patently not the case on the David Tweed article, and also for the extremely rude "kumbayar" comment on my user talk page. This is not the sort of behaviour I would have expected from an administrator. I am quite annoyed at the way I have been treated.

He has also made a number of assertions that I would like some clarification on. In particular he has said that he reverted or edited previous comments. Firstly, I don't see evidence of this. Secondly, I think that if this is the case then it shows poor judgment for making the comments in the first place. He has said he isn't going to go through each of the edits to clarify, but that is also not an acceptable response as I just don't believe that he has reverted or modified incivil comments. I am happy to be proven wrong. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 00:53, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I take it from this edit that he has no intention of apologising. Given that I feel wronged, I'm not sure how I can seek further redress. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 01:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

RFC user Misplaced Pages:RFC/USER would I think be the next step, if there is behavior that you think would not be excessive enough to be addressed there then disengaging is an option, sometimes the wiki is a place where two editors can agreeably fall out, it is possible to accept that and move on, remove the other editor from your watchlist and the places where you would meet, sometimes I have found personally this is a good option and down the line a natural resolution may well occur. Off2riorob (talk) 01:31, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I would like to do this, however so far he has reported me to the oversite committee, and has accused me of edit and wheel warring. This directly effects my ability to edit. How do you suggest that I resolve this particular problem? Is a user RFC still the way to go here? I would just like to have an assurance that Todd will stop his incivilities towards other editors (myself in particular) and will not attempt to curtail my activities in an underhanded manner. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 02:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I happened to find this when I went back to the AN/I thread (now archived) to see if the hounding complaint was ever dealt with. While I can see it was apparently resolved to the complaintants satisfaction, I must say I agree with Tbsdy that Toddst1 is exhibiting some pretty aggressive, uncivil, impatient and downright rude behavior. This is most unbecoming of an administrator. It seems that whenever someone questions or brings up his tendency torwards unhelpful snark and dismissiveness (as exhibited in the "tattling" comment), he responds by becoming even ruder as well as angry (as in his response to Tbsdy and myself, calling us "armchair quarterbacks" and whatever else). I would say that Toddst1 owes Tbsdy an apology and I do not think this incivility should be simply swept under the rug and ignored. Haughty, dismissive attitudes are not a positive quality in administrators. Burpelson AFB (talk) 05:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

How to resolve

This is getting on a bit now. All I would like to see here from Toddst1 is that he reign in his more inflammatory comments, and act with civility towards other editors. I should note, incidentally, that I know that Todd does a lot of excellent admin work on areas that aren't really very interesting to many of us - his work on admin backlog is invaluable. I suppose I should have noted this before.

I don't want any sanctions, and I don't want him to be forced into anything. I just want an apology for his rudeness to myself, and also an understanding that admins are really ambassadors to Misplaced Pages, and that abrasive behaviour towards other editors (even trolls) is not acceptable. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 15:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd suggest you start by setting a good example and removing the photos from your talk page. Gerardw (talk) 16:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps better if you kept that to the alert below. It looks to me like that has been resolved now. I will not be discussing my alert within this one, as it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. And so now back to Toddst1. I repeat, I would like an apology and an assurance that he will modify his behaviour. - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 17:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Final resolution

Tbsdy lives and Toddst1 have communicated off-line and offer the following joint statement:

• Both admit mistakes have been made on both sides and this denouement was unfortunate.
• We both look forward to collaborating with each other in the future.
• We would like to apologize to the greater community for this escalating the way it did.
• We consider this issue closed.

Signed

• Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) 21:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
• Toddst1 (talk) 22:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Sugar Bear, formerly known as User:Ibaranoff24

This user is consistently attacking me and getting rid of sourced content in articles. Statements like Denying this makes you come across as foolish, you look like a child. You are clearly not happy with the fact that I edit any article and want to revert any change I make based on your petty quibble and most recently and most likely the most offense so far want to dick me around. He has also used personal attacks against User:Blackmetalbaz noted with statements like: *The both of you look like fools for trying to back up claims, Stop pretending that this is an actual genre. Also he called User:WesleyDodds disruptive despite the fact that Wesley was just restoring sourced content which Ibaranoff was consistently removing on the heavy metal music page with these edits: . He seems to be disposing of sourced material that mainly ivolves the term "nu metal" and in the process pushing POV: . Even when there are both sources and a consensus in favor of certain music styles he removes them because of this personal beliefs . I can't take this harassment and vandalism anymore. RG (talk) 19:34, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

It looks to me like both of you are trying to edit cooperatively, but neither is willing to give way and consequently both are on the verge of losing your tempers. What you really need is a third opinion that you would both respect. Is there any possibility of finding one? Looie496 (talk) 17:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

As stated repeatedly, I'm not removing "nu metal" in which the sources substantiate its inclusion as a dominating genre of any album or band article I edit. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:48, 24 January 2010 (UTC))

Yet again Ibaranoff removes sourced material. And with Roots me and User:LUCPOL already had a consensus in favor of the nu metal label, so he has now gone against Misplaced Pages:Consensus. Also another example of him intentionally bashing me he claimed I should editing completely. This needs to stop is breaking Misplaced Pages policy and he is being very uncivil. He has a clear POV against the term nu metal, calling it a a useless catchphrase. It is clear Ibaranoff is pushing his own opinion and doesn't want artists he enjoys to be lumped with the style. He even wanted tried to put "this dog of an article to sleep" twice despite the fact that there is clear evidence it exists. RG (talk) 00:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to believe that one source dictates that you can add a genre based on your POV. Clearly you have an attitude towards me, and have certain opinions about certain artists that conflict with what is actually sourced. You are violating Wikiquette - as well as edit-warring. Cut loose. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

If you have a source it isn't POV(and I've have used multiple sources on Kid rock's page), removing sources that's POV and that's exactly what you have done. Might I add that I have still not received a simple apology from Ibaranoff for his hurtful remarks. Oh and to add on to that, now apparently my edits are a waste of time. RG (talk) 19:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The content dispute is irrelevant here, as are the sources. Ibaranoff, I'm inclined to say that your most recent comment on RG's talk crosses the line into incivility. You've been around the block enough to know that there are a multitude of ways to deal with an editor who has hearing problems. --King Öomie 19:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

RG, I wasn't referring to your edits. I was referring to responding to me with this attitude and continuing to discuss me behind my back in the same attitude. If we were to refer to specific edits, let's refer specifically to some edits that clearly are a product of your own POV, since the claims of POV on my part are absolutely false. "Nu metal bands used rap. Sorry but deal with it" - this is not POV-pushing? Or "He wasn't really ever traditional metal, nu metal would be more appropiate because most of his '90s stuff was just that", where you are clearly stating an opinion, rather than referring to what is actually sourced? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 22:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

• I started a MedCab case in regards to RG's edit-warring. I am very unhappy to have to continue dealing with this - I had thought that this case, as with all of RG's previous edit-warring endeavors, had been resolved. The consensus, editing guidelines, and sources are there. He simply refuses to listen to reason or pay attention to any of the points made by other editors. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 00:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC))

Look right now at the history on Kid rock's page you will see that Ibaranoff reverted three times in one day, yet he removed the warning on his page and put the waring on my page despite the fact that I did nothing wrong. It is behavior like this that is not acceptable and I have still gotten no apology from his user. Also, I stated numerous sources on Rock's talk page as I have previously stated, so I have used no POV. This is incredibly offensive. Oh and let's not forget that I suck. So now we have uncivil actions, acting against WP:CON, and him completly denying that he did anything wrong. RG (talk) 02:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Users are allowed to remove warning from their talk page. They are allowed to put warnings on yours. If they're not applicable ignore or delete them. Gerardw (talk) 20:56, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't misrepresent my statements. I clearly said that your attitude sucks. That was not a personal attack. It was a clear statement of your behavior. Secondly, I did not revert that article three times. Clearly, there is a difference in the edits that constitutes against a clear revert, which is what you have done, several times. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

Well you shouldn't be characterizing RG's attitude either. Remember, comment on content, not the contributor. Gerardw (talk) 22:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct, but users are not allowed to post warnings on other user's talk pages with another user's signature. Jauerback/_dude. 13:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

And let's not forget that I put no effort into writing anything on this site. So I don't work hard, I suck, I'm a total d**k, I'm a child, a fool, even when I have legit sources they are all POV, is there anything that isn't wrong with me? And again, I still haven't even gotten the simplest, little apology. RG (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I never said any of these things. I'm not apologizing for what you perceive as a statement on your behalf, rather than a direct statement which I've never provided. I never called you a dick or said that you suck. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

You have directly attacked me and I rightly deserve an apology. You have called me a fool, a child, a d**k, and that my attitude sucks, and you denying these claims when the edits show you have, just tells me that you refuse to be civil. RG (talk) 01:01, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I absolutely have not called you any of these things, and the edits clearly show that I have not. Anyone who would bother to read what I write would know this. I am being civil. Your repeated accusations and attacks against me are uncivil. Re-read my previous statements. Scrub. Rinse. Repeat. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 19:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC))

Outside view by User:PeterbrownDancin: After spending some time reviewing the links and articles involved, I myself see no substantial breach of "Wikiquette." I'm sure you can understand how editing in the oft-contentious topics regarding Kid Rock can really make tempers flare. Let's face it, next to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Kid Rock is probably one of the most controversial topics in the world today. So lets give both our valiant editors a warm reassuring pat on the back and thank them for having the fortitude to work in the trenches of a certainly intense field. Kudos! PeterbrownDancin (talk) 05:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Another outside view by User:Diannaa: Ibaranoff, when you are critising someone's edits or behavior please be careful not to use loaded words like "ridiculous" and "sucks". You hurt people's feelings. Rockgenre: I have been following this case since it first appeared on the Wiki. You came on the scene in August 09 and have made hundreds, possibly thousands, of edits that changed the genre of albums, bands, and songs. Most of these edits have gone unnoticed but occasionally you are changing an article where the genre decision has been reached by thoughtful discussion by a group of editors who have reached a compromise. If you come in afterwards and chage the genre to something else, you make people angry. At that point it doesn't even matter if you are right; you are overriding the edit reached by the consensus of folks who want to cooperate. Second point: I notice that nearly 30 % of your edits in the last two months have been "undos" of someone else's edits. That kind of percentage is very high! People don't like it when you act that way! There are better ways for you to contribute. You have created some nice articles. Maybe you should move away from the genre-changing project for a while and work on another aspect of the wiki. Just a suggestion. --Diannaa (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Me asking for an apology, uncivil? No someone repeatly attacking someone and pushing his POV, that's uncivil. "You came on the scene in August 09 and have made hundreds, possibly thousands, of edits that changed the genre of albums, bands, and songs" I admit that a lot of my early edits were unsourced, but I wasn't intending to stay here very long, I was only going to make a few simple, little edits. I even hate the name Rockgenre. "Maybe you should move away from the genre" there really isn't much else I think that I can do here that would be helpful. RG (talk) 02:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

There has been a series of helpful suggestions in regards to your behavior. Could you please try to work with other editors, not against them, as long as you are editing on Misplaced Pages? I don't care how long you intend to stay (and, for the record, you can change your username if you please). As long as you are editing here, the goal is to work with other editors, not to make changes based on your opinion or a dislike of other editors. There has been no attacks from any side, and you are the only editor pushing POV. (Sugar Bear (talk) 23:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC))

"There has been no attacks from any side, and you are the only editor pushing POV" You have got to be kidding me. As I have stated before this user is consistently offensive and removing sourced material, I want an apology. And also let's not forget that Mr. "Sugar Bear" has edited talk page archives even though the top of each archive page specifically says not to edit them. RG (talk) 23:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The editing the archive accusation is disingenuous: Sugar Bear simply unarchived a discussion archived by a bot which RG subsequently contributed to. Gerardw (talk) 00:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear to me that if I have ever posted any attack, then certainly this counts as an attack as well. But it doesn't, and my previous comments in regard to you were not attacks. Secondly, as Gerard stated, fishing a conversation out of the archives and adding further comments to it is not the same as "editing the archives". Furthermore, there needs to be a consensus in the sources themselves, and of other editors. Your editing against consensus and clear sources is more "offensive" than anything I have ever done. If one source says that, say, Rage Against the Machine are "pioneers of nu metal", that doesn't mean that every critical assessment of RATM's music agrees with this statement, nor that you are allowed to put that sole source and statement in that article's lead. (Sugar Bear (talk) 18:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC))

Gentlemen, this page is for discussions of interpersonal conduct. Don't rehash the content dispute here. --King Öomie 19:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That wasn't an attack at all. He claimed there was a consensus when there was none, so I asked simply whether or not he considers his opinion greater than the opinion of anyone else. And still I have gotten no simple "I'm sorry, I was wrong for attacking you." RG (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Because there never was an attack. And there clearly is a consensus - I posted the revisions in which users offered opinions on this issue on the article's talk page. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC))

Sorry, have to clarify that the last post was made on a public computer, so there are edits by other people in the IP's history. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC))

Obviously, this has gone far beyond a simple content dispute. RG, in my opinion, seems to be editing against any decision I make (including edits I've made that have agreement from other editors), in an attempt to get me to attack him, so he can claim etiquette breach. Apologies for not providing what you needed. This is childish. (Sugar Bear (talk) 20:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC))

Sugar Bear, WQA is a voluntary process; you're not required to continue to respond. It appears the only third party editor editors who had a (resonable, in my opinion) suggestion for you was were Diannaa and PeterbrownDancin; if you want to simply consider that and move on in my opinion I think that would be fine. Gerardw (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC) Gerardw (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that my opinion is worthless? PeterbrownDancin (talk) 05:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops. Thought there was another response but just missed it when typing my response. Gerardw (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed the above information. I'm just adding the comment that in my only interaction with Sugar Bear, I found him or her unnecessarily aggressive. Please assume that your fellow editors are working in good faith towards the common goal of writing high quality articles. ike9898 (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC) Upon, reading some of the above, I would agree with Diana's point that giving weight to previously achieved consensus would be helpful. ike9898 (talk) 16:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• It is worth noting that this is not exactly a new problem with Ibaranoff/Sugar Bear. See here. No comment beyond that. → ROUX ₪ 17:57, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

As Ike9898 has stated Mr. "Sugar Bear" is generally on the attack with anyone who disagrees with what he says(I believe he owes that user an apology as well.) These attacks should not continue, they are very uncivil. All I am asking for is a simple apology. That isn't much.RG (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ibaranoff just doesn't want to make an attempt at being civil. When me and User:LUCPOL have a consensus on the genres for a Sepultura album he changes them because he has his opinion(going against WP:CCC and WP:RS.) When he feels Kid Rock hasn't done any metal he removes metal from the box despite multiple sources(going against WP:RS.) Basically he believes what ever he says is right and frankly its unbecoming. RG (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have been civil. You are the one acting against consensus and sources, and you are the one who is clearly attacking other editors who don't agree with you, because you aren't getting your way and you've decided to throw a temper tantrum. The edits I made have nothing to do with POV. They have to do with the sources. And it's extremely aggravating and insulting for a disgruntled genre-warrior who can't get his way to make charges that I have any opinion of an artist whose music I don't even like. You know very well that the sources, guidelines, and consensus of other editors are against you in every article you've edit-warred in. I owe no apology because I never breached Wikiquette. Edits like this are a clear case of Wikiquette breach - where Rockgenre accuses others of vandalism because they edit against his POV. Game over. RG, you lose. (Sugar Bear (talk) 18:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC))

Dave1185

Dave1185 (talk · contribs) appears to have a problem with civility. He deleted another user's mistaken but honestly so comment with an unnecessarily harsh edit-summary ("duh! move along now I've got better things to do..."). I politely suggested that he could have moderated his tone, and he reverted this – in the process abusing the rollback tool, which is explicitly only for use in reverting edits which are unambiguous vandalism.

I left him a further polite message noting that he was free to delete comments from his page, but that the rollback policy still applied in userspace; this received the response, "stop hounding me again, I don't like to be disturbed when I'm making improvements to article pages, take heed as it is my talk page, now go make yourself useful for a change, wil'ya?"

He then left me a grossly insulting message on my talkpage in which he insinuated that I "DON'T KNOW ANYTHING", and ended with, "Hope you've realised your own mistake and newness now." (I take particular exception to his use of the word "newness", particularly given that I have been around for almost four years!)

I hope that community input here will help to moderate Dave's style of interaction – his mainspace edits are superb, but his style of conducting himself is, in my view, incompatible with the rigours of a collaborative community. ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 19:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that Dave was notified but seemed not to understand that the template is required by the WQA process, and took it as a personal affront. ╟─TreasuryTag►You may go away now.─╢ 19:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

(Full disclosure: Dave1185 and I have had a prior interaction which resulted in me taking him ("successfully") to ANI ] ). In any event, in my opinion his current behavior is in the WP:Gray Area and best resolved by ignoring it. Gerardw (talk) 20:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess I'm the "victim" in question. Yes, I found Dave1185's comment to be insulting, but I'm not sure what reporting it here is going to accomplish. In my experience complaints about incivility don't result in any effective action being taken, unless the perpetrator is simultaneously breaking other rules. —Psychonaut (talk) 22:51, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, WQA works maybe 10% of the time -- in the sense the reported party agrees to do better in the future. If nothing else the "victim" gets the support of the community. Gerardw (talk) 02:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Dave is a good editor, but he suffers foolishness badly, as do many of us. He should have been left alone after the message was rollbacked, but Treasury took affront by that, and had to make an issue of it, then got offended when Dave wouldn't back down. Sometimes it's better to let the other guy have the last "word" before things get ugly, even a revert. Btw, the "rollback" was used on his own talk page, as far as I can tell. To my knowledge, users are allowed to edit their talk pages in any manner they chose. This is also mentioned in the notes section of his talk page: "I reserve the right to decline or withdraw from a situation that is escalating or uncomfortable, without giving a reason..." This is there because he knows how he can react in such situations, and is trying to spare the other person some grief, but Treasury didn't take the hint. Yes, Dave should have been more civil, but in my opinion, Treasury is as much at fault here as Dave is. - BilCat (talk) 07:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you quote the part of the rollback guidline which says that making non-vandalism reverts in userspace is acceptable? And could you explain, again, how Dave's use of phrases such as "newness" and "YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" are in line with the civility policy? Thanks. ╟─TreasuryTag►CANUKUS─╢ 08:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

That's quite a mis-representation of my comments, so I'm not sure answering you will be productive. However, for truth's sake, I'll respond anyway.

One, I said "To my knowledge, users are allowed to edit their talk pages in any manner they chose." Per WP:UP#OWN: "As a tradition, Misplaced Pages offers wide latitude to users to manage their user space as they see fit." Using rollbacks on one's own userspace seems allowable to me, per that guideline. I don't remember when, but I believe that issue has come up at an ANI flied against me, and was upheld by the consesnus there.

Two, I said, "Yes, Dave should have been more civil..." How that implies that I think "Dave's use of phrases such as "newness" and "YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING" are in line with the civility policy" is quite beyond me. - BilCat (talk) 08:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll rephrase my last question: "How is my behaviour as bad as Dave's when he so flagrantly violated the civility policy?" ╟─TreasuryTag►without portfolio─╢ 09:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Editor TreasuryTag wrote:

"Could you quote the part of the rollback guidline which says that making non-vandalism reverts in userspace is acceptable?"

Sure. The first sentence in the "When to use rollback" sections ays:

"Rollback should be used only for reverts that are self-explanatory – such as removing obvious vandalism; to revert content in your own user space ; or to revert edits by banned users who are not allowed to edit."

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 12:03, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank-you, I wasn't aware of that exception. Now I am. ╟─TreasuryTag►senator─╢ 13:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I see no problem with TreasuryTag, he was polite and quite nice in his posts. Dave was clearly rude and incivil. His behavior is unacceptable. Caden 12:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The heinous crime of using rollback on your user page? Maybe you're thinking of me, as I was (falsely) accused of doing that on my talke page. As David Wilson indicated above it is legitimate. Maybe Dave isn't as civil as he should be but hounding him on his talk page isn't the way to deal with it. That was a bad move. Justin talk 13:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I was not "hounding him on his talkpage" – I made an honest mistake about the rollback policy, which in no way justified his response (which anyway didn't address my mistake, it was simply abusive). ╟─TreasuryTag►Tellers' wands─╢ 13:52, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

There's a theme, here. Tan | 39 14:20, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Good. ╟─TreasuryTag►without portfolio─╢ 14:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

TreasuryTag his response did, he pointed out he wasn't using rollback and as I found out using some of the edit tools some people can't tell the difference. Deleting a message indicates he has read it, continuing to push the matter wasn't helpful. I agree with BilCat that there was fault on both sides here, the problem being you just don't see it. Justin talk 14:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, at no point did I object to his deleting a message. I objected to his using rollback (or a tool exactly like it), which was an honest mistake. ╟─TreasuryTag►without portfolio─╢ 14:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay now I see that Dave has decided to attack me for having shared my thoughts on here. See this where he continues to be incivil along with another well known trouble maker (Bugs). Dave's attitude and behavior is not acceptable. Something has to be done about him. Caden 23:53, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Some time back, Caden ordered me to stop watching his page, and although he had no authority whatsoever to issue such an order, I stopped watching. Meanwhile, he seems to be watching mine. So apparently he applies different rules to himself than to others. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:24, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, Caden's block log will give you an idea of the level of his credibility in complaining about other editors' behavior. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes Bugs, I asked you to stop watching my page because you were stalking me. I did not "order" you to stop, I simply asked. Regardless, you have a well known record for harrassment, incivility, and personal attacks. As your block log shows , you're no saint and were blocked for a 5 day period. Looks like you learned zero from all those blocks, as it's obvious from your talk page that you continue to make personal attacks. No surprise there. You'll never learn. Anyway, I'm not watching your page. I was told on yahoo that you were attacking me again and so I went to your talk page. Caden 03:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"Consider this your first and last warning. Take me off your watchlist. Understood? I don't care man that you have powerful admin buddies. Bullies like you don't scare me. Get lost." Funny, I don't see an "ask" in there anyplace. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

There are no saints. And that was over 2 years ago. Your blocks all happened last year, one of which was indef and you were given another chance. Actually, I had forgotten about you until yesterday. I don't dwell that much on past issues unless they resurface. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

And I see that after a 9-month hiatus, Caden has managed to get himself blocked again due to - can you believe it - vulgar personal attacks, such as this: I guess he'll never learn, to coin a phrase. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Since the above, Caden and I have declared peace. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Rossdegenstein and communication

Hello. I've indef-blocked a user, Rossdegenstein (talk · contribs), because of edit warring and refusal to follow directions with properly citing census data. The user has an awkward communication style and has recently branched out into creating an alternate account.

Even though I'm reaching my WP:AGF limit, I really believe this user could be a productive member of Misplaced Pages. If nothing else, they could use someone to patiently explain what the issue was. I've tried, as have others, and it doesn't feel like we have gotten anywhere.

I'm reaching out, hoping that someone here on WQA can 'adopt' this user and see if they can demonstrate more civility and AGF than I've been able to. tedder (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

His facebook profile is also quite confusing. Could it be that he's not able to write intelligibly and understand normal communication? --Jonund (talk) 16:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I have a couple theories about his communication issues but I don't want to elaborate here for privacy/libel/minding-my-own-business reasons. Someone with enormous patience and perhaps even experience with speech and language pathology might be able to work with him. He seems to want to update the population figures for various cities, but he's not citing his sources. If there's someone who wouldn't mind doing such a repetitive task, maybe s/he could do the edits for him. I just can't get that worked up about population data but I know some folks are into that stuff. Any takers? I guess this should be requested wherever folks request adoption. Do we do forced adoptions? Katr67 (talk) 18:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

They don't appear to have the minimum competence necessary to be an editor. Fences&Windows 23:01, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I point out User:hopiakuta who's output is extremely strange, due to some problem, but they still make constructive edits. Anyway, I think it's clear that they're making these edits in good faith, and can communicate, but are simply unable to communicate at a normal level (simple english will probably get a better response). I'll drop this by Misplaced Pages:Adopt a user and see if anyone's willing to help. Swarm 08:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought of hopiakuta in relation to this user, actually. Thanks for following up. Katr67 (talk) 17:47, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz

Malik Shabazz /_Stalk has deleted information from the article on Peace Now, in my opinion partly to push his POV. He is unresponsive to my arguments, scornful in his tone, accuses me of not understanding the concept of NPOV and refuses to discuss. I'm thankful for constructive input. --Jonund (talk) 14:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you justify "refuses to discuss"? It looks to me like there is a reasonable discussion at Talk:Peace Now, and I can't see that you've attempted discussion anywhere else. It also looks to me like, as Malik says, your edits have serious neutrality issues. You should perhaps be aware that Malik has a strong reputation as one of the few admins who can be effective in the face of the battleground mentality that dominates many Israel-Palestine articles. Looie496 (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you provide diffs of the specific contributions by Malik Shabazz you consider incivil. Gerardw (talk) 19:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult to discuss WP:NPOV with somebody who doesn't understand why the use of words like "appalled", "disinformation", and "infiltration" in the encyclopedia's editorial voice is a POV issue. I don't think my comments were scornful or uncivil. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 19:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Jonund, I had a look at that article yesterday and it needs a lot of work. It doesn't even say what Peace Now's position is on various issues like the right of Israel to exist, that they advocate for a 2-state solution, how many members they have etc etc, basic facts. Why don't you actively demonstrate your neutrality by adding basic infomation like that rather than focusing on criticism ? Sean.hoyland - talk 04:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There was a discussion on Talk:Peace Now, and it did not lack constructive elements, although some of my arguments were ignored. But then Malik withdrew from it, although there are open points, ascribing to me unability or unwillingness to understand the concept of NPOV. On this page, rather than discussing disagreements, he declares his unability to discuss.

A serious contribution, including explanation of the edit, was met with the comment "if you want to write an editorial of your own, start a blog", along with a revert that seems to be partly POV-pushing. An earnest attempt at discussion returned, along with answers, the comment "if you want to write an article about how evil Peace Now is, write a blog." It all ended with a refusal to either try to understand or to explain.

I have experience of Malik, and his ways of running roughshod over his opponents by ignoring their arguments and deleting material that doesn't fit his POV are untoward to him. That looks like the exact opposite of being "effective in the face of the battleground mentality" (which is not to deny that he behaves far better in many cases).

NPOV, in my understanding, means that all POVs are taken into consideration and together work out a version that all can agree about. That is how many good articles emerge. My experience is that where a constructive attitude reigns, a diversity of opinions is an asset, also when they are strongly held. Unfortunately, such an attitude isn't always present.

The suggestion to add some basic information to the article is a good idea, and I will consider it. At the present moment, I'm a bit discouraged but I hope I will overcome that feeling. --Jonund (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

After reviewing Talk:Peace_Now#Changes_by_Malik_Shabbazz I'm not seeing personal attacks; I seeing disengagement from an editor who is not hearing well Gerardw (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but your comment doesn't invite confidence in you. Your accusation of refusal to 'get the point' recoils on yourself. This is a place for constructive attempts at dispute resolution, not for joining POV-pushers in their dismissals of contributions by those who disagree with them. --Jonund (talk) 17:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I advice Malik Shabazz /_Stalk to be more patient and answer all arguments. The discussion about Martin Luther King (where I weighed in with a couple of comments) showed that you are, at times, wanting in preparedness to consider opposing arguments, and I think the same problem is present now, at least to some extent. I hope you will seek a solution by consensus and not by force. --Årvasbåo (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Jonund, you wrote "NPOV, in my understanding, means that all POVs are taken into consideration...". This is the root of your misunderstanding: that's not what NPOV means. NPOV means that the information is presented from a neutral POV, not from multiple POVs. If it is necessary to describe the views of various parties, they must be explicitly attributed to the people who hold them. Looie496 (talk) 23:26, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I think I expressed myself unclearly. I wrote in response to Sean Hoylands suggestion that I actively demonstrate my neutrality, which looked like a suggestion that all parties contributing to an article should be neutral. I think that's a misunderstanding of NPOV. Editors need not be neutral (on many subjects, neutrality is a vice rather than a virtue). Individual edits may well reflect the editor's view. But the resulting article should be POV. For instance, I may add material that I find important, and correct stuff that I react against, while Malik adds material he finds important and corrects things he reacts against. As a result the POV's cancel each other out. That's perhaps the most common way in which articles progress. Of course, there's also a need to discuss and reconsider one's edits. And we should never push our own POV at the cost of other's. --Jonund (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not how it works. Every editor must at all times comply with WP:NPOV in their editing. The editor's personal POV shouldn't be relevant. NPOV is a core policy and is "absolute and non-negotiable". You are responsible for ensuring that your edits don't distort the neutrality of an article. You have to make sure that you balance postives and negatives etc. You can't rely on anyone else to do it. Even if you were allowed to work on the basis that NPOV is an emergent property of individually biased editors working together (e.g. someone else balances your edits, you balance theirs etc) it wouldn't work. Read about genetic drift to see why. What happens is 'fixation' where one POV dominates and may even eliminate others. There simply aren't enough editors working on any given article, discussing things, etc etc to be able to rely on neutrality emerging all by itself.It's major problem in the Israel-Palestine area of wiki because so many editors think it's okay to only make edits that advance their preferred POV whereas, in fact, it's inconsistent with a core policy. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Right, the "dueling POVs" approach just doesn't work. It leads to articles written in the form "X is true. But some say X is false. Y is bad. But some say Y is good.", etc. The result is almost always unreadable junk. The only way to get a good article is for editors to be committed to neutrality from the start. Looie496 (talk) 19:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and then there's the Israel-Palestine discretionary sanctions that make NPOV compliance even more strict and encourage editors to simply walk away if they can't be neutral...not that anyone ever does. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wildhartlivie

Wildhartlivie (talk · contribs) has made a number of false accusations against me of vandalism and harrassment. My edits on his/her talk page have consisted of a standard template about not adding unsourced material to articles here (apparently he considers WP:DTTR a policy that forbids giving "regulars" standard templates), my explanation that he/she should not command others not to give him/her legitimate templates and a request that he/she provide sourced information to back up his edits here, a request (with a template) that he/she stop making personal attacks against me in his edit summaries here, and another request that he stop making false accusations against me in his/her edit summaries here. In his/her edit summaries, he/she accused me of harrassment here and here, and he/she accused me of vandalism here, here, and here. If I have stepped over the line in any of my edits, please advise me and I'll apologize as appropriate. I think, however, that Wildhartlivie (talk · contribs)'s tendency to make false accusations of vandalism and harrassment should be addressed. If you look at his/her talk page it is evident that my situation is not the only one in which this has occurred. Thank you. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I just informed Wildhartlivie (talk · contribs) about this discussion. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

First of all, this editor removed categories from an article that was supported by a statement by the subject (Tina Turner) that she had Native American heritage, that was also accompanied by an alleged source claiming Turner did not have the same. Rather than approach me about it civilly, the IP posted a warning template to my talk page. Interestingly, since the IP posted a complaint about my reverts, another editor has come forward to state that recent DNA testing did support the Native American categories, as they were returned. At no point did I state that WP:DTTR was a policy, but it is a behavioral suggestion that I reminded the IP about along with explaining that one source did support the content and the other one did not refute it. I removed his post from my talk page with the edit summary of WP:DTTR. His next edit to my talk page characterized me as arrogant and included the snarky comment of "Who died and made you wikiboss?" and went on to say that he would leave a template. I don't know about anyone else, but leaving a warning template such as that is a bit agressive, especially accompanied by the other comments, and yes, I did revert it as vandalism. It was designed to be an affront. He then left a template accusing me of making personal attacks (not by the definition of WP:NPA). I have an ongoing issue with another editor and in fact, the talk page post I reverted saying "deleting unacceptable post meant to harass" was not the revert of a post by this IP at all, but instead the post by the editor with whom there is an issue. I do not choose to go into that here and it in fact is well beyond here. When the IP posted the personal attack template, I did revert it as harassment, because at that point, it was becoming harassment when accompanied with the characterization of arrogance and the question about who died and made me wikiboss. At that point, the IP's actions had crossed a line to aggressive. I also returned to reiterate that one should not template the regulars and clearly explained that the "harassment" comment was not about his post to my page. Apparently, he has still not comprehended that fact. He then came and posted a threat to take this to here . It appeared to me that the IP was more interested in arguing and picking a disagreement that resolving anything, especially after I explained that the harassment revert had nothing to do with anything regarding the IP. The rest of the comments above are well past anything that is any business of this IP editor and I decline to discuss that here when an ArbCom case is about to filed over the issue at stake. It does leave me to wonder why any editor would want to push something to this point when it is obvious something else was going on. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

71, if you were a regular here and had ever gotten a template warning, you'd know that it can be very irritating. I've responded not-so-well to templaters before, pretty much in commanding them not to template me. People can command you as such, they have that right, and you pretty much have the right to ignore them. Just understand that it pisses people off to get templates notifications when they are already well aware of the rules. It seems like the rest of this conflict grew out of that, so maybe you could both just agree to disengage and forget about this silly thing, we can mark this resolved. Equazcion 00:04, 8 Feb 2010 (UTC)

My concern here is not the content dispute on Tina Turner, despite Wildhartlivie's comments above on that issue. I posted a message on that article's talk page to separate the dispute from my other concerns about Wildhartlivie.
My concern is with Wildhartlivie's accusing an editor of "vandalizing" when, in fact, no vandalism occurs. He again calls my edits vandalism above. He states that my edits were "designed to be an affront". I would like to know how asking for sources (regardless of the actual content in the Turner article) and asking Wildhartlivie not to falsely accuse me of vandalism are "designed to be an affront". Wildhartlivie is reading something into my edits that were not there; hence, his false accusations against me.
Wildhartlivie states above that "the 'harassment' comment was not about his post to my page". Then please, Wildhartlivie, explain why this removal of my comment on your talk page here has the edit summary "rvt harassment". If you weren't accusing me of harrassment when you reverted my edit, then whom were you accusing; and if your weren't accusing me, then why is the comment in the edit summary in which you reverted my edit?
Equazcion, I appreciate your comments, although I must point out that finding legitimate templates irritating is a personal reaction on your part that everyone does not share. I have received templates. If they were justified, I accepted them as a friendly reminder presented in a way that is carefully worded because templates have standard wording that is careful not to offend. In any event, providing a template (that is legitimate, as mine were) on a user's talk page is no reason to falsely accuse someone of "vandalism" and "harrassment". Templates are not forbidden on Misplaced Pages, even for regulars, and in no way constitute "vandalism" or "harrassment".
Thanks. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 00:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

...And I'm telling you that, despite how you see them, they do piss off many regulars here. That's why the WP:DTTR essay exists. You may not feel that way, but many others do. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to use them when contacting veteran users, but I am advising you to keep this in mind, if you want to avoid conflicts in the future. That's all. You can take that advice or ignore it, if you like. As for calling edits vandalism, our guidelines do in fact state that users should be careful when referring to edits as vandalism. Wildhartlivie, I hope you can agree to be more careful about that in the future, as that too can inflame conflicts. Vandalism is only when a user edits an article for the express purpose of damaging it. No good-faith contribution, no matter how misguided or ill-considered, is vandalism. Again I don't think this conflict need continue, if both parties can agree to disengage from here on in. Equazcion 00:57, 8 Feb 2010 (UTC)

It can be irritating, but there is nothing that restricts a template message from being issued to a "regular", nor is WP:DTTR an excuse to respond to template messages with incivility. The anonymous user was completely correct, when they said, "You certainly are entitled to revert any edits made to your talk page, but you are not entitled to make false accusations in the edit summaries". Referring to users as vandals in edit summaries is obviously going to cause unnecessary conflict. Asking someone politely to not "template" you is a much better alternative than saying "rv vandalism" in an edit summary. Regulars should handle being templated in a mature and civil manner. Swarm 01:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I've run across Wildhartlivie in the past and have found aspects of their contributions -- for example, blank or inappropriate summaries -- less than civil. Additionally, past behavior indicated to me that simple requests on their talk page would not be effective changing behavior. At that point I felt the appropriate options were writing an RFC or disengaging by working elsewhere in WP; the latter option seemed preferable (less work and aggravation for all concerned). So 71 is not alone in finding themselves frustrated with Wildhartlivie's response to other editors.

I find it ironic the concept that regulars shouldn't be templated because they know the rules when the rule is, as an essay, WP:DTTR may represent a minority viewpoint and is not something to be slamming other editors with. In any event, calling non vandalism entries vandalism is rude. Gerardw (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Swarm and Gerardw. I would like to offer an analogy. It sometimes "irritates" me when the person in front of me in the supermarket checkout line waits until after the cash register totals before beginning to write his/her check. It further irritates me when that person must spend three or four minutes trying to find his/her checkbook. It irritates me even more when that person realizes he/she doesn't have a checkbook and realizes he/she doesn't have enough cash to cover the purchase. I've been in that situation, and I felt like yelling at that person, but I didn't because that would have been uncivil. Some people in my situation might not even have been irritated. But regardless of my or someone else's irritation, that does not justify incivility. If Wildhartlivie finds templates "irritating", that is his/her right. But responding with false accusations of vandalism and harrassment clearly is incivil and uncalled for. Thank you. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 01:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If someone irritates you by taking too long at the register, that's a bit different from irritating you in the way they choose to interact with you. When someone annoys you in the way they talk to you, you're allowed to tell them so, and in a place like this, we can state as a general public service what mannerisms tend to annoy users for future avoidance. I didn't come here to debate WP:DTTR, but, in summary, templates are meant to inform new users of rules they probably didn't know of. When you template a regular user, it can feel like they're disrespecting your knowledge, ie. "In case you didn't know, the sky is blue". Again this is just advice. You can agree or disagree on the merits of the essay, and you can think it's silly that some people find this kind of communication offensive, but the fact is that some do, and people would be well advised to try and respect that.

As for the vandalism remarks: I see four reverts, the first three of which were accompanied by "vandalism" or "harassment" remarks. Calling them vandalism at first was inappropriate; however, calling them vandalism after the second or third revert would not have been as inappropriate. After it was apparent that the anonymous user's comments were unwelcome, they shouldn't have persisted, and referring to that persistence as vandalism and/or harassment is warranted.

In the end, like I said, I think both users were in the wrong a bit here, but there's no reason this needs to go on. The content dispute will be discussed on the article's talk page and there shouldn't be any further need to leave messages on each other's user talk pages. Equazcion 01:58, 8 Feb 2010 (UTC)

"If someone irritates you by taking too long at the register, that's a bit different from irritating you in the way they choose to interact with you.": Not in the sense that an uncivil response is inappropriate in both cases.

"calling them vandalism after the second or third revert would not have been as inappropriate": You make it sound as if I messaged him three or four times for one false accusation; that's not the case. If someone falsely accuses you of vandalism or harrassment on four separate occasions, it is perfectly acceptable to respond to each of those occasions with a request that the false accusations stop. That is exactly what I did, nothing more. You appear to be accepting Wildhartlivie's statement that I was harrassing him/her by repeatedly messaging him regarding a single false accusation. The fact that you consider templates irritating does not diminish my right to ask Wildhartlivie (or anyone) to stop making false accusations. I might be able to accept your conclusion that "both users were in the wrong", but please don't distort my actions. Each time I messaged Wildhartlivie, it was concerning a new false accusation, and that is entirely justified. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 02:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter that each statement was regarding a separate event. Once a user makes it clear that your comments on their talk page are unwelcome, you should probably stop leaving messages there; and once that is made clear, reverting subsequent communications as vandalism or harassment can be justified. I'm not saying WHL's comments to you were entirely justified. Again, I simply think neither of you were entirely correct in your behavior. WHL should be careful about calling things vandalism in the future, and you should be careful about continuing to leave messages on the talk page of a user who clearly doesn't want you there. I hope we can all take those lessons away from this and move on. Equazcion 02:35, 8 Feb 2010 (UTC)

A user doesn't own their talk page and saying "don't post on my talk page" isn't enforceable. Of course, a user can always remove others commments from their own talk page. Gerardw (talk) 03:02, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"reverting subsequent communications as vandalism or harassment can be justified": Equazcion, I strongly disagree with this statement, and I suspect many other Wikipedians also would disagree with you. I also suspect that if someone makes a false accusation against you today, then another one tomorrow, then another one the next day, you would respond separately to each false accusation. You wouldn't, I believe, make one request and then cower into the background if the false accusations were repeated again and again. That is one reason templates are in levels; it is perfectly legitimate to ask someone repeatedly to stop their inappropriate behavior. And if the inappropriate accusations continue, you take it to the larger Misplaced Pages community, which is exactly what I did here. I respect your opinion, but, to put it bluntly, I don't think you could be more wrong. I agree with you that we can learn from this situation and move on, but I do not believe I was out of line, and if you'll look at other comments on this page you'll see that others agree. But thank you for your comments. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 03:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Either way, I think the matter is settled. Equazcion 03:05, 8 Feb 2010 (UTC)

I agree the matter is settled, unless Wildhartlivie decides to engage in the same behavior (i.e., false accusations). I don't consider the original content dispute settled at this point (although that is not why I started this discussion); if the information I have requested on that article's talk page is not provided, I plan to revert Wildhartlivie's edits in that article, not to antagonize Wildhartlivie, but for the integrity of the article. (Otherwise I plan to stay away from Wildhartlivie if possible). If I do revert his/her edits and he/she again responds with false accusations, then the matter here is not settled. I hope it doesn't come to that. 71.77.20.26 (talk) 03:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Incident with Alansohn

Summary of incident

• In a recent discussion at WP:DRV, User:Alansohn responded to a comment I made by suggesting that my comments constitute "threats": .
• I assumed that this was just a misinterpretation of what I meant, so I tried to clarify that I was making a prediction about what might happen in the future, and that it was in no way a threat: , .
• I asked Alansohn to withdraw that characterization of my comment after I clarified it:
• Alansohn refused and restated that I had made "rather explicit threats" and (in the edit summary) that I had "a very vivid sense of paranoia":
• User:Postdlf pointed out to Alansohn that I had not made a threat, just a prediction:
• I confirmed what Postdlf said and again requested that the allegation of threat-making be withdrawn:
• Alansohn refused for the second time and accused me of harassment and (in his edit summary) of trolling on his user talk page:
• Outside third party views welcome. — Good Ol’factory 21:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Alansohn notified of this report: — Good Ol’factory 21:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments

This incident described by User:Good Olfactory above is merely the latest in a longstanding pattern of incivility, failure to assume good faith, personal attacks, and general hostility expressed by User:Alansohn at WP:CFD and WP:DRV. On repeated occasions and regarding multiple editors, he has made comments about the motive and conduct of commenters at both forums, turning content disputes personal and hostile. He also makes passive-aggressive general remarks about CFD and its participants that, while not expressly naming individuals, in the context of opposing others' comments can only be taken as personal attacks. This conduct is not incessant, and it is not the sum of Alansohn's contributions, as he is undoubtedly a valuable and prolific article editor and article vandalism fighter. But this conduct in discussion forums is recurring and longstanding, and it is a problem that needs a solution.

See also this recent thread on his talk page, which was the most recent substantive attempt by myself to try and bring these issues to his attention in a constructive manner, and has numerous relevant diffs of his recent conduct. His response, as can be seen there, is largely dismissive of complaints about his conduct and tone. He makes comments about other users and their intent, and then labels their criticism of those comments as trolling, threats, etc., or part of a clique of admins or CFD regulars who are apparently out to play games. I think everyone who has been affected by this has tried ignoring him, but it's difficult to let attacks go unanswered. I've been pondering an AN/I or an RFC for awhile on this, because there needs to be an end to this hostile atmosphere. postdlf (talk) 21:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps this (combined with the broader issues) really needs to go to one of those other forums. Good Ol’factory 21:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I do enjoy how Postdlf and Good Olfactory are working together to manufacture a controversy. There is apparently no remark so trivial that it can not be used as fodder for further abuse of Misplaced Pages process. I'm still wondering where this imagined "incident" is. Alansohn (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a decent example of the tendencies outlined in Postdlf's comment. Good Ol’factory 21:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

<Gaping yawn>. Is this the best you can manufacture? Even Eusebeus appears unimpressed. Alansohn (talk) 22:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment This is certainly in keeping with the editor's longstanding truculence. Alan can be quite ornery when he feels he is defending the interests of Misplaced Pages, and that, sadly, extends to an inability to admit ever that he is wrong in his language or manner of engaging other editors. I participated in an extensive User:RFC about Alan a while ago that detailed his more outrageous incivilities and he has improved his behaviour as a result considerably. In this instance, his response is so absurd on its face, I would simply dismiss the incident. Eusebeus (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment These threats just go to show how little "consensus" at CfD has to do with what the community as a whole thinks. A little snarky? Maybe. Incivil? Not seeing it. It's a comment about the preceding comment not about an editor. Gerardw (talk) 03:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • The point is that it characterizes the preceding comment as a "threat". Perhaps others use English differently than I do, but I understand "threat" to carry a considerably more malicious flavour than "prediction" or something similar. Rather than that quote, however, the more salient points are the reaction that emerged after the request to remove the comment. Perhaps it's true that this was a minor incident in isolation, but it is indicative of an overall pattern, as roughly outlined above. Good Ol’factory 04:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I honestly don't see how Alan managed to turn such a benign comment into a big deal. While the incident alone is nothing to worry about, if it is part of a larger pattern of improper behavior, there is cause for discussion. Whether or not Alan is deliberately trying to cause trouble or made an incorrect interpretation of a comment and doesn't want to admit it, I don't know, but accusations of making threats (over comments that clearly don't do so), and referring to an editor as a "troll" when they try and respond to the accusation is both uncivil and, when occurring as a pattern of behavior, disruptive in the long term. Swarm 05:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
• I also note Good Ol'factory's numerous attempts to point out uncivil comments on Alan's talk page, which Alan seems to be ignoring. How long ago was this RfC? Swarm 05:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This may be something other than Eusebeus was referring to above, but see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes, a case closed in June 2008 that imposed editing restrictions on Alansohn upon a unanimous finding that he "repeatedly engaged in unseemly behavior, including personal attacks, incivility, and assumptions of bad faith." He was blocked six times during the year the restrictions were in place (including by myself and by Good Ol'Factory) for incivility towards others. His comments that earned him the block the last time, though a while ago (April 2009), are rather illustrative of his continued attitude generally towards many CFD participants. Since then, we and others have tried ignoring him and imploring with him, but the personal attacks, incivility, and failure to assume good faith continue.,,,,,,. And he continues to refuse to take any of these complaints seriously, instead calling them "trivial" and "attempts to manufacture knowingly false disputes".,,. postdlf (talk) 06:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Found the RFC, at the likely place: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Alansohn. postdlf (talk) 06:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
• My view
  • Good Olfactory's comment could not reasonably be construed as a threat. Alansohn could've clarified that was how he interpreted Good Olfactory's comment, or ideally, admitted it was an overreaction by apologizing and refactoring. However, he is not obligated to change his reading, and there is little point pushing that issue as the claim he makes is so obviously absurd/foolish, and is certainly not widely held, let alone correct.
  • Alansohn is permitted to give notice and warn users that particular commentary will be deleted (other than block/ban notices) if it continues to appear on his talk page. Alansohn did so, but accompanied the notice with an accusation of harassment. Serious accusations require serious evidence; there was a failure to explain the (or provide evidence) of harassment by either Good Olfactory or Postdif towards Alansohn.
  • Alansohn has also continued to engage in uncivil and unseemly conduct, including personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith or other gross inflammatory commentary: . Of the other diffs mentioned so far, these were the ones that I considered relevant.
  • Alansohn was previously under a civility restriction for similar conduct.
  • WQA cannot impose binding remedies. It is hoped, however, that Alansohn will make assurances to avoid repeating such conduct, and make those assurances mean something, so that this WQA may be marked resolved.
  • Alansohn was expected to avoid repeating the improper conduct for which he was previously sanctioned if he wished to continue participating at Misplaced Pages. Although there has been a significant improvement since the previous sanction, there is still further room for more improvement. Should he not make greater attempts to improve his commentary in the future, then as is standard practice, I'd urge that a sanction is (re)imposed on Alansohn. A sanction proposal may be discussed upon a request being made to the community at an administrators noticeboard, or alternatively, a request for amendment being filed to the Arbitration Committee. However, I hope that no such proposals will become necessary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Nmate

Nmate permanently appears to have a problem with civility. He personally attacks me and other editors, many times reverted good faith edits without explanation and made false accusations of wikistalking.

Last personal attacks:

• Yopie, he needs to consult a doctor, seriously.
• Yopie is sick
• Needless to say what I think about Yopie
• It looks that Yopie needs to be humiliated by a community ban from editing wikipedia for indefinite time
• No need encouraging Yopie to make unconstructive edits

Last reverting without explanation:

He reverted good faith talk in talk page as here .

He falsely accuses me and others of stalking:

• , but I was invited here and here
• to Iaaasi
• to Wladthemlat

He also accuse of sockpuppeting and communicate in Hungarian in talk pages .

--Yopie (talk) 15:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

WQA won't have any effect unless you notify Nmate of this thread. It's part of the process of starting a discussion, and we won't do it for you. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 21:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, before we go on, could you please leave a comment on their talk page notifying them of the discussion with a link? I think your evidence speaks for itself, so the primary purpose of this WQA would be for Nmate to hear other opinions of his behavior so that they might be more mindful of it. Swarm 21:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Done .--Yopie (talk) 22:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Alastairward

I'm concerned about what I perceive as uncivil behavior from Alastairward aimed at me in a dispute over application of WP:V at Butters' Bottom Bitch. There's been an ongoing dispute over the inclusion of a cultural reference that is going nowhere and is in my view of me trying to offer compromises and with Alastair constantly reverting me. The core of the argument is disagreement of WP:V, but I feel that it's by now gotten personal with the edge aimed at me. My and another user's position is that this is a case where WP:V can't be applied strictly since there are mitigating circumstances. Alastair on the other hand believes that there is no room for compromises, with partial support from two other users.

The problem is that I feel that Alastair is forcing his own position on the article and disregarding the need for mutually respectful, multilateral discussion. I feel that Alastair is also doing this with needlessly belligerent and openly provocative methods:

• Alastair has made an open implication that I have been engaging in point-making and despite my attempt to ignore it, it was repeated only about 12 hours later. When I tried to point out that it was unnecessary to imply bad faith, I got nothing but a cryptic answer that seemed to imply that I had made the accusation.
• Despite knowing that I'm an experienced user Alastair has left messages intended for newbies (mixed with accusations of incivility) on my talkpage. When I removed what I felt was a pointlessly provocative gesture, it was followed by a rather accusatory misrepresentation of recent events.
  • Later came comments like "If the veterans can't take onboard wikipedia policies, they shouldn't complain when they are reminded of them."
  • User:Gigs commented the templating at Alastair's talkpage, calling it "poor form", but from Alastair's reply I get the impression that the only option with Alastair is to keep reverting if things go against his opinions.
• I'm also concerned that Alastair is gaming the system when he openly admits that he'd rather keep reverting than continue discussion as long as it doesn't technically break any rules.
• One of my recent attempt to introduce a compromise which would not violate WP:V have been promptly reverted with demands constantly placed on me to move discussion forward.
• This follows a pattern of swift and unilateral reverts that have been typical of my interaction with Alastair since I first edited the article. I've tried to bring up my concerns that Alastair is pushing his own interpretation of policy as objective truth. I've also complained about what I feel is a lack of interest in genuine consensus building with dissenting voices. Discussions can be found on Alastair's talkpage and mine, but I sense no mutual respect or will to acknowledge conflicting opinions.
• What really makes me think that Alastair is not aware that his particular interpretation of Misplaced Pages policies isn't set in stone is a reply to my explanation on why I moved a citation from the middle of a sentence to the end of it: "No. Citations go where they're needed, if you have to cite mid sentence, do so." There's always room for debate on the placing of citations, but taking such a adamant stance on How Things Are Done isn't justifiable in a collaborative environment.

I'd just like to stress that it seems to me like Alastair is doing a good job in general, and that it's important to be vigilant when it comes to unreferenced speculation, particularly in pop culture articles. However, I think that his good-natured and usually positive zeal for verifiability has an unfortunate tendency to manifest itself in a touch of fanaticism when it comes to gray areas. I get the impression that upon first raising my concerns I was immediately placed in the same category as all previous "scrubbings" of trivia, speculation and perceived nonsense. In the dispute between us, it seems also to be combined with a very swift dispencing of niceties and needlessly condescending behavior towards an experienced colleague.

Peter 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll try and open up all those diffs in tabs, but it feels like this is just going to be a contest of bumper sticker arguments if I try to address each one.

This one. Having tried to add unverified information to the article, you then called into question the use of a comment from reliable third party source, by way of comparison with your own edits. It came across as "if he can do it why can't I".

This group of diffs, where I have asked him to discuss before putting his edits back into the article. Yes, I have asked him to discuss before putting information back into the article. I don't see how doing it in the opposite manner would help, I'm sort of lost with that one.

"I'm also concerned that Alastair is gaming the system when he openly admits that he'd rather keep reverting than continue discussion as long as it doesn't technically break any rules." I honestly don't see anything in this diff that supports what you said. I said that my opinion wasn't a lone one and that the policies and guidelines of wikipedia agreed with me.

This accusation (where he uses templates too no less) was in reference to this reversion. I spotted that the cite for a particular comment had suddenly moved position from mid sentence to the end. This wasn't just a simple "hit undo" reversion but an active bit of editing by Peter. It made it seem all of a sudden that a cite supported his entered information, when it did nothing of the sort. I found that suspect and I think fairly so.

Besides all of which, if Peter was interested in moving forward the discussion, he could have done better than to accuse both I and other editors of playing dumb (here and here.)

I have trimmed and pruned and cited a lot in the South Park articles, for well over a year and a half now I reckon. When the featured article drive passed through those articles, the information I had removed as uncited, speculation and what have you did not return, unless cited.

And no, I'm not a newbie and if anyone cared, they would see that my editing on wikipedia has considerably improved over the time I've spent here. I used to add trivia, uncited info and the like and bloody annoying it was too when I was reverted. All that's changed, and I welcome any investigation of such. Alastairward (talk) 22:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Frank777w

On The True Furqan in edit summaries, and Talk:The True Furqan, he is repeatedly accusing me of "vandalism" and "censorship" for what is good faith editing to improve the article. He is certainly free to disagree with the edits, but vandalism or censorship they are not; such baseless accusations are rather uncivil. Furthermore, rather than seeking to engage in constructive discussion of my (and other editors) concerns with his preferred version of the article, he just keeps on restoring it. --SJK (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This isn't really a WQA matter. The article is an atrocity and Frank777w (talk · contribs) is an SPA devoted to maintaining it in its atrocious state. I am going to bring this up at WP:FTN in hopes of getting additional eyes on the article. Looie496 (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

True the article isn't a WQA matter but the "vandalism" accusations are. Gerardw (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Lycaon#Accusation of Vandalism

I have bitten, following an Accusation of Vandalism Here; any neutral input to help us get back to consensus editing would be gratefully appreciated. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Characterizing the edit as vandalism is definitely uncivil. And using twinkle to do so is a policy breach Misplaced Pages:Edit_warring#Reverting. Gerardw (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In case it isn't clear to other contributors, there's an ongoing dispute between leaving that page as a disambiguation page or having it redirect. That being said, I'm not sure what Lycaon was thinking when they reverted that as vandalism. Perhaps they can explain why they did that here? Swarm 20:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Focusing on the worst problem here, the most important thing is that CyrilThePig4 has been edit-warring against mutiple other editors by repeatedly making this change without getting consensus. That is considerably wronger than the "vandalism" characterization (which was, however, not the right thing to do). CyrilThePig4 is advised that continued edit-warring can result in a block even if it does not amount to more than three reverts within 24 hours. I have undone Cyril's latest revert. Looie496 (talk) 21:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Lycaon's explanation here. Swarm 21:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright, after some thought, I believe Lycaon's accusation of vandalism was still uncivil. CryilThePig's reverts should have stopped after it was clear that their preferred version was controversial, but Cryil's actions certainly do not constitute blatant vandalism as Lycaon claims they are. Characterizing someone as a vandal, though disruptive they may be, serves to do nothing but inflame the situation. Next time you see someone you feel is being disruptive, Lycaon, I recommend that you assume they are trying to help the project, not hurt it, rather than assuming they are intentionally trying to disrupt and damage the project (which would be blatant vandalism). This is blatant vandalism. This is blatant vandalism. This is blatant vandalism. Edit warring between a redirect and a disambiguation page is not blatant vandalism. Swarm 01:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Off2riorob: personal attacks

I am rapidly reaching the limits of my tolerance with User:Off2riorob, who after a previous Wikiquette alert and a discussion at AN/I has followed me to an article he or she does not edit to make personal attacks: "COi, is an essay, it is not big deal, there appears to be a lot of opinionated discussion here on the talk page, wikipedia is not an excuse to assert negatively on people that would intellectually eclipse us."

Is there any reason for this type of behaviour? Or any reason why Off2riorob gets away with it repeatedly? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This is an absolute rubbish report, the comment was not even directed at this User. Off2riorob (talk) 21:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Who was it directed at? Gerardw (talk) 22:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo. Look at the indent levels. → ROUX ₪ 22:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

So O2rr was saying that Jimbo Wales is intellectually inferior to Aubrey de Grey or me? Look at the comment and the user's history, not the indent levels. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

So incivility is okay if it's directed at Jimbo? Gerardw (talk) 22:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• You have completely misread the statement. O2rr was saying that WP:COI is only an essay and thus has no binding force/is not a big deal, and that we can't use Misplaced Pages as an excuse to attack others. → ROUX ₪ 22:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I was accused, by Jimbo Wales no less, of possibly attacking the subject of the article. That's the context. I had apologised profusely for any misunderstanding. There was absolutely no need for an uninvolved editor with a history of confrontation directed towards me to comment. Off2riorob, who has in the past accused me of stalking, just happened by the article to make a comment on the only person (me) accused of "asserting negatively on people" and proceeded to comment on my intellectual status: Aubrey de Grey "would intellectually eclipse" me. Is it OK, in your opinion, for Off2riorob to follow me about and make baiting comments? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It would behoove you to node O2rr's statement above; the comment was not even directed at you. Ergo he was not baiting you. And frankly, de Grey would eclipse all of us, I suspect. → ROUX ₪ 22:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You're telling me that O2rr, who has had me in the crosshairs for weeks, just happened to show up and just happened to make a statement that could only apply to me, and furthermore that now I must take his word that it was all a big coincidence and had nothing to do with me? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

You're right, clearly I am an idiot and unable to read English. Thank you for clarifying matters. → ROUX ₪ 22:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, as long as you're willing to admit your faults. Good for you. HalfShadow 02:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I found O2rr's comment unhelpful, and its poor wording would only inflame the situation (which it did). Verbal chat 23:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Randy2063

Randy2063 has a long record of incivility, aggressiveness, and disruptive editing. He is regularly involved in drawn-out, heated disputes with other editors, primarily over what he calls "anti-Americanism", mostly in articles related to the United States, terrorism, and U.S. foreign policy. See, for example, Talk: Human rights in the United States and Talk:War crimes committed by the United_States, and most of his edit history for that matter.

Numerous editors have attempted to contact him, and ask him to be civil and calmly work on articles, and to refrain from arguing with other editors about his personal opinions. (see , , and , for example), and have attempted to go through formal mediation with him(, ), all to no avail.

He continues to be aggressive, sarcastic, and writes long POV/OR rants on talk pages (see his talk page history for example).

I support at least a temporary, if not a permanent, community ban on him for his repeated disruptive and uncivil behavior. I understand that this noticeboard cannot impose or enforce such a ban, but I wanted to gather more opinions on this before taking further steps.

146.187.151.57 (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC) (writing anonymously to avoid harassment)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution