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If the offer still stands...

...it appears that you also have at least one co-nom, if desired. Probably a few others that would volunteer for that too (if you want names, e-mail me!) I guess there's no better time to go through it :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks ... draft responses for comment (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Truly, thanks ... working on the finalities as we speak type (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

..and thanks for the truly kind words in the nom. Much appreciated. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:36, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Should I remove this response? I truly feel he's going down some kind of WP:SOAP path, but I'm WP:AGFing and responding politely ... (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you're probably fine...although if he keeps up you're right that it's probably best just to let him have the last word. It should be clear to the crats that he's harping over a really minor thing. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 21:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots

Hey, that's great its at FAC, nice work! :) To be honest, I don't have opinion on the flag use - I added the reactions as they came in and flags made it easier as is the case with many other articles, so reading your comment I agree it makes it easier visually, rather than a load of text. But noting the other users concerns, it would make sense to either change them to the "link alt" thing. Bolding is fine but I think I prefer the first option, though I'm happy with either outcome. Sorry I'm not much use, I'm not really familiar with Misplaced Pages policies in this respect! Midway (talk) 23:50, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

• As only admins can do this, can you please set up an {{editnotice}} and eject the stuff which is currently seen at the top of the article when in edit mode? Cheers. Ohconfucius 04:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Good idea, I'll get to it right away. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 05:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
    • fix "titlesof" to "titles of" :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:24, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Was it you who changed the italicisation of BBC News, etc? If so, was it at the prompting of any FAC comment? AFAIK, italics are usually reserved for traditional (ie paper) journals etc. Ohconfucius 01:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. I changed all instances of BBC News, etc., to |work= (from |publisher= or |agency=) because that seemed to be what Template:cite news suggested. Based on my reading of it, it sounded like |agency= is only supposed to be used for the agency that wrote and supplied the article (i.e., it's sort of a replacement for |author=) and generally only when that differs from the newspaper/website where we found it (for example, a China Daily article that says the source is Xinhua, or something on ABC news that says the source is AP). Anyway, long story short, the italicization is probably a result of that change.

Of course, I haven't been working with this template for a long time so perhaps that is not the consensus on how things should be used. But that's what the documentation makes it sound like, so if the consensus is different we should probably update the documentation. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, '|work=' does italicise. I'll go and sort them out. Ohconfucius 02:11, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Your sig

Hello Rjanag, for some reason I don't quite understand, the "<b class="Unicode">" tag in your sig causes your name to be displayed as a blank on my computer (Firefox 3.0 on Ubuntu 8.4). Omitting the "class" attribute solves the issue for me. I don't know why this is or whether other users are affected by the same problem. Would you consider modifying the sig? Thanks, --Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:03, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, that's interesting. I'll have to try it out on a few different computers...I believe the original reason I put the class there was to allow the special characters ʨ and ɢ to display for people with older browsers.

I wonder if it would be any different if I use class="IPA". Can you let me know if this shows up for you?:

• rʨanaɢ

Thanks for the notification, rʨanaɢ /_contribs 07:06, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the IPA version works for me. Apparently my browser chokes up somehow on the font list for .Unicode at MediaWiki:Common.css, selecting fonts from the list that aren't installed on my system (weird, since several others in the list are in fact there.) I can reproduce the same kind of blank when doing manually "<b><span style="font-family:Thryomanes;">" or other non-existing fonts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Update: I'm now on a different computer and no longer see the problem even though it's basically the same system, so I suspect maybe it was all just some kind of problem with bad font installation on my end or something like that; so please don't worry too much about it; sorry for bothering you about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:55, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The Nicholas Beale AfD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Any further messages from NBeale will be deleted from my talk page without reply. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 23:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rjanag. Thank you for taking trouble over the Nicholas Beale AfD. But as you now know, the analysis of the sources you posted, however much in good faith, contains serious errors and mis-statements and is influencing the debate, due to your hard-earned reputation as an Admin. I must respectfully ask you, per WP:BLP and your responsibilites as an Admin, to retract these errors and to do what you can to nullify the harm that they have done. Many thanks. NBeale (talk) 10:23, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No. Do you go around telling everyone to retract their !vote because you don't agree with it? This is ridiculous. I tried my best to be polite coming into this AfD, yet you have still insisted on acting like a child. I have nothing more to say to this request. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

And before you go crying about my "personal attacks", take a look at the AfD—I'm not the only one who is appalled by your immature behavior here. If you can't see the overwhelming consensus against your crusade and can't take the hint, then there's nothing more I can do for you. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

If you want to vote delete when WP:AUTHOR is clearly met that is up to you. But you really should retract the manifestly false statements that you have made in your "analysis" of the sources. And grad students - however stressed - should not try to lecture grandfathers on "maturity" NBeale (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots info for Chinese views

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. I didn't do much wiki editing over the break, but I've been doing way too much eding for the Haiti earthquake articles over the last week. I put together some info that could be used on this temporary page User:David_Straub/urumqiriotsedit. I think the main problem with the Urumqi riots at the moment is that it includes almost no information concerning government claims that the riots were orchestrated by a terrorist separatist group in Xinjiang. I don't believe the claims of the government, but most Chinese do. I think that adding one section that explains the views of the government by using articles from mouthpiece sources such as the China Daily would both informative and at least alleviate some of the concerns of Chinese that their views be heard. But I won't worry that this is endorsing their views. I think it is just more likely to reveal how ridiculous their claims are. Review what I put together and let me know what you think/want to do with it. I'm a little busy right now, so if you want to add some of the text to the main article, feel free to do so.

Actually, I down loaded an pirated copy of Colin Legerton's book, but I didn't read it yet. He's in CEUS. I took a class with him last year.

Take care. David Straub (talk) 20:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this together. To be honest, right now it looks like most of that information is more appropriate in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement article, as most of it is about ETIM and the history of ETIM rather than its putative involvement in the riots, and many of the China Daily/Xinhua articles you found don't actually say much about the riots beyond what's already in the WP article:

• Xinjiang riot hits regional anti-terror nerve just says that WUC might be affiliated with ETIM. (And that statement is sourced to Rohan Gunarata, about whom I remember Gardner Bovingdon had some titillating things to say ;) ). Other than the WUC-ETIM connection, it has little to say about the July riots.
• World Uyghur Congress behind Xinjiang violence: expert Just says that WUC instigated the riot, which is already detailed in the WP article (mostly in the second paragraph of the "immediate causes" section). I recall there used to be more about this in the article (I think there was a whole paragraph on stuff like the "something big will happen" phone conversation, or whatever (update: after some digging, it looks like I removed the "do something big" because the sentence it was in was plagiarized, and I never got around to re-adding it)), and it was gradually trimmed down as time gave us better perspective on all of it. This particular China Daily piece would be a useful reference to add to the section, but I don't think it has a lot of actual new content that needs to be added.
• Urumqi riots part of plan to help Al-Qaida Says that the riots were instigated by separatists and that WUC is affiliated with Al-Qaeda. The first point is already in the article; the second can be added.
• Al-Qaeda threatens Chinese abroad: covered in the International Reactions section

rʨanaɢ /_contribs 21:07, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Made some additions, mostly of the terrorist connection stuff (since I think the rest of the stuff is either already covered, or more appropriate in the ETIM article which is now linked from this section). To be honest, for most of the summer I was pretty much ignoring the terrorism stuff because POV-pushers repeatedly trying to add the article to "Terrorism" and "Terrorist attacks" categories were leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Looking back now, it does look like you're correct to point out that some of that has gotten left out of the article, but at the same time I think there's only so much that can be said (essentially "the government says the riots were premeditated by terrorists and they're connected with international terrorist networks) and I don't think a whole section can be made out of it without repeating ourselves a lot. (Or becoming a mouthpiece for the crazy speculative stuff that was going on in forums in July, like "the rioters had sneakers on so they must have been PLANNING to riot"). rʨanaɢ /_contribs 21:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The article looks much better. Good job. I think the material added does balance out the article. We don't have to respect the views of the Chinese government and most Chinese, but it is important that their views are at least represented.David Straub (talk) 02:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that it looks better, and I appreciate your taking the effort to find that material (and to press me to get it cleaned up!). Best, rʨanaɢ /_contribs 02:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Template code

I'd like to add some new fields to Template:Infobox_ship_begin but I forgot where they hide the code. Any chance you could point me to the right page so I can fiddle around with a copy of the code in my sandbox? I seem to recall you helped me out with this one other time. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 11:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, it looks like it's Template:WPMILHIST Infobox style but I'm not sure yet; will have to do some snooping around this afternoon. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look at that for me, Rj. As it happens, another guy has now directed me to the relevant templates, so please don't waste any more time on it :) Gatoclass (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Language Articles

For the record, your deletion of Matheus Lundberg was inappropriate, we don't delete articles just because they're not in English, they should be listed at Misplaced Pages:Pages needing translation into English and either deleted if they're inappropriate, or kept for two weeks to see if someone translates it, then listed for deletion. I'm not going to say restore it, but I find it strange that as an administrator you're unaware of the accepted practices for such a situation--Jac16888 22:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I already commented on this at the bottom of WP:RD/L. I am aware of the accepted practices, and the article was "inappropriate", as you say above. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 22:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

erasing everything

Erasing everything doesn't help with pinpointing the problem. Do certain words frighten you. Fear is very understandable. --Neptunerover (talk) 01:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Per WP:TALK, users have the right to erase whatever they want on their own talkpage. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 02:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Neptunerover, there is no problem for me to pinpoint, I'm not even really interested in this discussion (indeed, I didn't read the one that triggered it so I don't even really know what you're talking about). I am not "frightened" by anything, but as someone who worked in community mental health services for several years I am very offended by your inappropriate comments about users' mental health.

Since whatever problem you have is not mine to deal with, there is no need for you to respond further here. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 02:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Without knowing what triggered the discussion, why would you then delete it (from the other page) and then say it's not your problem to deal with? But you did. You deleted it twice. I'm sorry for not realising the possible offensiveness of referring to sock puppet as possibly being confounded by mental problems. Maybe I should not have used the charged term. I really didn't know that anyone would be so offended. --Neptunerover (talk) 02:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Hats

I own a bunch of these hats, but I don't know what they are called. Doppa sounds Persian and Tubeteika definitely does not. It sounds more Turkish. I think the difference is that the Tubeteika is round and the Doppa is squarish, which I think can be folded up. I've seen them both all over Central Asia. I bet there are many different types and names, so I wouldn't merge the articles just based on name, unless someone else can verify they are the same thing. Ask User:Otebig. He studied Kazakh. He might know. User:Xhancock might also know. They are both IU graduate students. David Straub (talk) 04:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I just reposted this question at Firespeaker's talk page - he's worked on a lot of Central Asian cultural articles, and should have some idea. Otebig (talk) 23:39, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Template:Collapse top

Hi. I gather with this, you were attempting to make an optional title, perhaps defaulting to "Extended content" if not filled in. Unfortunately, it seems that the title is not optional. With or without substitution, it now centers {{{title}}} if no parameter is supplied.

Are you able to fix that so that "Extended content" continues to show if a title is not specified? I would if I could, but I'm afraid that templates are not my thing. --Moonriddengirl 16:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about the poor edit summary on that. Actually I was trying to make it work if you put the title in a |title= parameter (since previously it only worked with a numbered parameter, e.g. {{collapse top|Stuff}} rather than {{collapse top|title=stuff}}. Anyway, I just added a pipe which should (hopefully) fix it. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

You're not exactly speaking my language, but "which should (hopefully) fix it" I can follow. :D Thanks. Now it doesn't say "extended content",though, which was probably useful for people not familiar with collapse boxes. Is it possible to have it default to that if nothing else is supplied? --Moonriddengirl 16:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, good catch. I think this should fix it. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks. :) --Moonriddengirl 16:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:AUTH

I raised the issue before Beale did as I say on the talk page. Also, if you believe I have vested interest in Beale, I can send an e-mail to you to verify my real identity. Common sense is a good thing, but some tightening of the sentence to avoid future misunderstandings would make sense, don't you think? Vesal (talk) 13:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation! As to Beale, my stance was a weak keep a few AFDs ago, but with each repeated process I find the case for delete more and more compelling; I didn't take a position this time. Vesal (talk) 13:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

tx

--Epeefleche (talk) 18:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Seil Kim (tenor)

Yeah. I see what you mean. Bearian (talk) 02:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

PS I love the neat Admin actions stats on your user page. How do I get the template or script for that? Bearian (talk) 02:57, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm...it's been a while since I put that up and I remember the template itself is something of a mess. But if my memory serves me, I think it's made by creating a subpage of User:Rjanag/adminbars (for example, mine is at User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag).

The numbers itself aren't updated automatically (I left a proposal a long while ago to do such, but never got a response); there is a bot that updates Template:adminstats, and I just copy my numbers from that (Template:adminstats/Rjanag) into User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag. It looks like {{adminstats}} doesn't have helpful instructions up, but basically I think you just put {{adminstats|Bearian}} on your userpage and then the bot will create your stats. Once your stats are created (should be at Template:Adminstats/Bearian) then you could just copy them to User:Rjanag/adminbars/Bearian in a fashion similar to mine.

(as a caveat, though, it seems that the bot hasn't updated my adminstats in a while, so I'm not sure what's up with it.)

rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:18, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking back, that was a pretty convoluted response. The basic steps, I think, should be:

1. Put {{adminstats|Bearian}} on your userpage
2. Wait for bot to create Template:Adminstats/Bearian
3. Copy the numbers from that page into User:Rjanag/adminbars/Bearian, in a similar format as User:Rjanag/adminbars/Rjanag. Should look something like:

{{User:Rjanag/adminbars/core
|edits=
|ed=
|created=
|deleted=
|restored=
|blocked=
|protected=
|unprotected=
|rights=
|reblock=
|modify=
|user={{SUBPAGENAME}}}}
{{show|Admin stats|{{Template:Adminstats/Bearian}}}}

rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar for your thankless but vital efforts

	The Working Man's Barnstar
	The Working Man's Barnstar may be awarded to those who work tirelessly and endlessly on the more laborious or repetitive of Misplaced Pages tasks. This barnstar is awarded to Rjanag, for his efforts in cleaning up redirects and other thankless tasks. On behalf of the Misplaced Pages community. Thank you. Ikip 09:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

July 2009 Ürümqi riots (Vmenkov)

Thanks for the invitation to comment on that article, but, after reading it, I don't think I can suggest any meaningful improvement or offer any meaningful criticism.

Well, OK, there is this one sentence, with a reference to a paper by Dru Gladney: "China's minority policy treats Uyghurs as a 'national minority' rather than an indigenous group." I am sure Dr. Gladney's paper (which I did not look at) probably explains what is meant by these words - he is a major writer on these issues, after all. But to a casual reader this statement sounds rather cryptic. I think that to an average person an "indigenous group" simply is an "ethnic minority" that is officially recognized as having a long-term association with a certain geographic area, and is officially granted certain special rights on account of that association. One would think that the (official) status of the Weiwu'er minzu in PRC -- with the XUAR on the maps, a 维吾尔民族简史 publsihed, an official bilingualism of sorts, and the policy of appointing members of the "titular nationality" to the (possibly figurehead) leadership positions in the region -- makes them just as "officially indigenous" to the region as the Nisga'a are to the Nass River Valley or the Buryats to Buryatia. So if I were to write this, I would perhaps try to explain what Gladney's dichotomy means.

Thinking of it, the preceding sentence "Uyghurs believe their ancestors were indigenous to the area, whereas government policy considers present-day Xinjiang to have belonged to China since the Han Dynasty", with its "whereas", implies a contradiction of the two point of views, even if it does not explicitly say that there is one. I certainly can imagine some kind of 维吾尔民族简史 talking about 我国维吾尔民族 happily living in the area in 100 BC (or wherever), in such-and-such commandery of the Western Han Dynasty empire...

Please feel free to ignore these comments, or to move them to an appropriate talk page elsewhere.

On an unrelated issue: could you insert proper Uyghur letters into Musa Sayrami, Yaqub Beg, Afaq Khoja, and Muzat River, sometimes when/if you have a chance? Official bilingualism or not, my Atlas of Xinjiang certainly does not have any 少数民族文字 in it! Vmenkov (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a good point, it is a very complex paper, and I've kind of taken the sentence out of context (I was trying to avoid giving Gladney too much weight by going into a ton of detail on it). I'll try to see if I can explain it better—it's always tough to strike a balance between brevity and clarify!

By the way, I've had a go at the Uyghur names. Some require a bit of guesswork, since Romanizations of Uyghur are not consistent throughout history (for example, the "a" in "Muzat River" could be either ئا or ئە, which in ULY are written a and e respectively but have often just both been written a). The only one I couldn't figure out just yet is Musa Sayrami (it could just be that the macrons are confusing me, but also it's a pretty old name), so I might have to ask a friend for help with that one. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 17:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for Syrami and others! I was surprised to see that for Muza(r)t there are two spellings - with and without an r - in Uyghur as well; I thought it was an artefact of careless transcriptions. And there is even an interwiki, ug:مۇزات دەرياسى - of course, to a perfectly empty page! Vmenkov (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm, you are probably right then. I pretty much just guessed Uyghur names based on the Latin transcriptions and on the Chinese, which often (but not always) are derived from the Uyghur in a more or less systematic way. I hadn't even noticed the interwiki. But now that you've pointed that out, I corrected the Muzat transcription to match what's in the interwiki, which is more reliable. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Does this help clarify the Gladney quote? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 00:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks; I guess it makes a bit more sense now: it implies to the reader that (according to Gladney, at least) recognizing an ethnic group as an "indigenous" one would require the transfer of land ownership /land control to a governing body specifically representing that ethnic group (and not just linguistic/cultural autonomy, availability of bilingual education, affirmative action, etc within the ethnic group's traditional territory). In other words, no Nisga'a Treaty, or even Gwaii Haanas National Park for the Uyghurs. (One can wonder how common this kind of recognition is world-wide, outside of the US and Canadian Indian bands that have appropriate treaties with their respective federal governments. E.g. Basques are certainly "indigenous" to the Basque Country, and the region has a high degree of autonomy, with its government actively promoting the Basque language and culture. But I am pretty sure that any Spanish citizen residing in the region, regardless of ethnicity, has equal right to purchase land, or to vote for / be elected to local governments controlling the land use... But in any event, such a discussion would be a topic for the Indigenous peoples article, and not for the article in question). Vmenkov (talk) 02:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

FAC clarification

Nah, man, no problem. "These disagreements have sometimes led to violence and ethnic clashes, such as the 1997 Ghulja Incident and the 2008 Kashgar attack, as well as the more widespread 2008 Uyghur unrest preceding the Olympic Games in Beijing." No cite for that sentence. Thanks and good luck :) Aaroncrick (talk) 21:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you.

Thanks for your comment on my talk page. It's taken ages to reply, sorry; I've been really busy as of late. I know this is taking your words more literally than meant, but when you say "it is what separates the (wo)men from the beasts" it makes me wonder if other animals that feel love actually get such feelings. I think they probably do. Apes are genetically close to us so I'm guessing they do. Something I now want to reaserch one day. :) Threewords,eightletters... (talk) 05:41, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Dabomb87 (talk) 13:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

You are just terrible

Your suggestion would be welcome as to how to present something fair and citable. There is a very caustic quote from Pullum in this Elements of Style wikipedia entry - if you look around the web, you'll see it's not necessarily shared by everyone, and indeed it is not. I have merely cited one of numerous examples of someone (who happens to be an English professor of many years, whether notable to you or not) who doesn't share it and his well-reasoned opinion as to why, followed by the numerous opinions of others in the blod entry

I am welcome to any language you can put in which accurately reflects this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.145.123 (talk) 16:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Education in China

Why did you remove well-referenced information with this edit? And cite some unknown Chinese phrase as the reason for doing so. What does 填鸭子 mean, by the way? If there is some reliable source for China offering a liberal education in its schools, please cite it. If you feel the information from the New York Times is over-simplified, please try to do better, but please don't remove well-sourced information. Fred Talk 22:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

填鸭子 means "feeding the duck", and refers to the memorization-based education that was common there (and still is common, although it's becoming less and less so).

As for sources that attest to the development of the education system in recent years, here are just a few (not all are available online easily, you may need to go through a database or library):

• Brandenburg, Uwe; Zhu Jiani (2007). "Higher education in China in light of massification and demographic change: lessons to be learned for Germany". Centre for Higher Education Development.
• Kirby, William C. (2008). "On Chinese, European & American universities". Daedalus 137(3). pp. 139-46. (this one in particular has a lot on the topic.)
• Li Yao; Whalley, John; Zhang Shunming; Zhao Xiliang (2008). "The higher educational transformation of China and its global implications". National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper 13849.

Granted, there is no doubt that a lot of classes in China still focus on memorization and do not develop critical thinking skills. Support for that view can be found in sources such as the following:

• Farrell, Diana; Grant, Andrew J. (2005). "China's looming talent shortage". McKinsey Quarterly (4). pp. 70-9.
• Hulbert, Anne (1 April 2007). "Re-education". The New York Times. (mostly parroting the source above)
• Anecdotal evidence—for example, in my own experience teaching in China I often encountered students with poor critical thinking skills, the cause of which was in no small part their university education.

But, regardless of these sources, it would be an error to claim, as your edit did, that this education style is the only one in China, or that Chinese educators actively and intentionally discourage critical thinking. In many ways, past practices that weren't conducive to critical thinking were a result of poor teaching methods, not actively stamping it out (the exception, of course, is education under the Maoist era, when universities were pretty much Party indoctrination centers.) Also, the mere fact that the government is placing such a strong interest in improving critical-thinking education (as evidenced by some of the sources above, and by many recent articles in Chinese Education and Society) speaks against the claim that they actively suppress critical thinking.

Also, the fact that you put that reference in the "education policy" is definitely a problem—it makes it seem as if you're trying to say that the lawmakers are passing down rules from above, legislation telling teachers "Don't let your students have critical thinking!" That is certainly not the case. And the blunt way you worded it and stuck it in comes off as, at best, a strange non-sequitur, and at worst a mean-spirited jab at China (I'm not saying you're mean-spirited, just that the wording of that edit could come off as such to a reader.) Finally, the article itself seems to be based very much on random interviews and personal impressions. That doesn't make it un-reliable, but it does make it far from being a scholarly source like most of the ones I listed above. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 22:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, the source is shaky; after all, it is a letter backed by general impressions of the reporter with a few facts thrown in. The issue is not memorization, I think that IS an issue from the past. It is the emphasis on technical skills. Which is a policy issue. I'll check out your references though. Fred Talk 22:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll concede that there might be articles in Chinese Education and Society which might contain information regarding Chinese educational policy, but you don't cite any; you just wave at it. Is there any information in it that Chinese educational policy does not emphasize conformity? Fred Talk 15:02, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Brandenburg, Uwe; Zhu Jiani (2007). "Higher education in China in light of massification and demographic change: lessons to be learned for Germany". Centre for Higher Education Development does not seem to contain any information that addresses the questions raised by The New York Times article. Perhaps it could be used to support a content addition which addresses an increased commitment to mass education and the delivery of educational services to an aging Chinese population. Fred Talk 15:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Li Yao; Whalley, John; Zhang Shunming; Zhao Xiliang (2008). "The higher educational transformation of China and its global implications". National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper 13849: "Reflecting China's commitment to continued high growth through quality upgrading and the production of ideas and intellectual property as set out in both the 10th (2001-2005) and 11th (2006-2010) five-year plans, this transformation focuses on major new resource commitments to tertiary education and also embodies significant changes in organizational form" from the summary, also does not address the questions raised by the Times article because it addresses only the desire for "production of ideas", not any policy which has a rational connection with an educational environment where students might be educated in a way which might produce an educated class capable of producing ideas, at least ideas other than patents. Fred Talk 15:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you have simply thrown a list of references to Chinese education up without pointing out any information from a reliable source which contradicts or negates the information in the Times article. Fred Talk 15:49, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Did you read the whole articles, or just the abstracts? I'm pretty sure they both talk about trying to improve education quality (probably in sections pertaining to things like Project 211); plus, the Kirby article is entirely about education and critical thinking, and it seems you have not read it yet (admittedly, it's a bit hard to get access to). I've also seen Kirby speak and he makes essentially the same point. I apologize that the articles are long and it's been a while since I read them, so I don't know the exact locations of everything within them.

And in any case, that still doesn't change the fact that your edit came across as POV and was simply the wrong way to bring up an issue like this. Yes, you are right that education has the sort of problems you were mentioning, and you were right that they should be addressed in the article somewhere (with references such as Farrel & Grant discussing that problem and the Chinese interest in addressing it); but presenting it as if it's a black-and-white thing, a problem which exists at 100% of classrooms and is intentionally created by policy, is both oversimplified and wrong. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:12, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, if you want to try to make points about policy, you should consider reading the actual education policy and higher education policy (those links are English translations). As you can see, nothing in those policies specifically says to squash critical thinking. Indeed, the only thing that might support the point you seem to be making is parts of Article 16 of the HE policy, which do mostly stress skills, but at the same time it doesn't say "don't encourage critical thinking":

"(2) undergraduate education should enable students to systematically master the basic theory and basic knowledge necessary for the respective discipline and specialty, master the basic skills, techniques and related know-how necessary for the respective specialty and acquire initial capability for the practical work and research work of the respective specialty;"

You are welcome to snoop around the Ministry of Education website, which contains a whole lot of materials (but it's not well-organized, so things are hard to find). For example, this summary of higher education illustrates how much they are concerned with improving teaching quality and teaching methods (which in turn reflects an interest in improving education quality, although I guess an argument could be made that they're really just interested in finding methods to cram even more knowledge into the duck without teaching critical thinking...but, in my humble opinion, that's not likely).

Also, in some ways (and I hinted at this above as well), the very effort government officials are putting forth to promote better education, particularly critical-thinking education, reflects both the existing problems and the education ministry's stance on them (i.e., it demonstrates that they don't want to perpetuate this problem, they want to solve it, they might just have always done the best jot—it's an issue of will vs. capacity, do they lack the will to improve education, or do they simply lack the capacity?). The "Re-education" article, which I have now added a link for above, contains quite a lot about this. The immediate impression you get at the beginning of the article is similar to the impression your newer article gives (that education in China has flaws), but really much of that article illustrates the government's recognition of the need to improve it—the specific example this article uses, for the most part, is the founding of the HSYLC program for high school students, which I can attest is still running (I know someone who taught there this summer). That article also contains a pretty direct quotation about this:

"Even as American educators seek to emulate Asian pedagogy — a test-centered ethos and a rigorous focus on math, science and engineering — Chinese educators are trying to blend a Western emphasis on critical thinking, versatility and leadership into their own traditions."

Just below that quote it also mentions suzhi jiaoyu, or "character education"/"all-around education". This is an important concept; if you read any Chinese articles about education you will encounter it all over the place (素质教育). Sometimes it is used to mean something that is not really the same as critical thinking (for example, improving someones' "moral character"), but often it does refer to critical thinking skills, which the government recognizes are essential if it wants to become an economic powerhouse that doesn't rely so much on exports (i.e., if they want to thrive in the consumer economy and information/services economy, rather than just in manufacturing). The very existence of such a term, and the amount it gets thrown around, is yet another bit of evidence that education is not just all about job skills. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:34, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Re nudge

Yup, I saw, I was expecting Tim to take care of it ;) It looks like there's been some other activity there, and its currently endorsed. Let me know if you need anything else from me. Nathan 18:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Elements of Style

Hello - what offense has the latest attempt to edit generated? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.234.144.40 (talk) 22:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Already left a message at your talk page. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 22:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

See my latest - thanks.

So, there's no way to engage in a chat huh?

I'm not sure what you mean. You mean a real-time chat over IRC? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 23:06, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

ah well...

favor? close it (withdrawn) per WP:WHATEVER Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've closed it. Although I think in the case of withdrawing your own AFD, it's acceptable to close it yourself (you just add {{subst:afd top}} and {{subst:afd bottom}}, remove the afd tag from the article, and add {{oldafdfull}} to the talk page). I've certainly withdrawn and closed several of my own AfDs before. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 05:59, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Cantonese/Yue renaming

So, which name would you prefer? kwami (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure; I believe I commented in some of the earlier discussions (in Archive5 and Archive6 now) but then it all became too TL;DR for me to follow. My preferences I think were Yue Chinese or Yue (language family), but back then I think the whole discussion was also confounded by concern over the organization of the articles (it seems that back then they were a bit mixed up, whereas now there appears to be a better division, with all the typological/big stuff located in the Yue article and the dialect-specific stuff in the Standard Cantonese and related articles).

The problem with the current name (Cantonese (Yue)) is that it doesn't even state clearly what the article is about, and it doesn't clearly distinguish it from the article about the prestige dialect (currently called Cantonese). As I probably said in one of the other discussions, the term is parentheses is usually read as a disambiguator: i.e., in an article titled ], the interpretation is "this article is about something called X, falling under the category of y". It's not clear how "Yue" is a category that the article falls under in this sense, and it's certainly now clear how the article Cantonese doesn't also fit here. Along the same lines, to a reader just looking at the title "Cantonese (Yue)" and not seeing the content yet, it's not immediately clear that this article is going to be about the language family and not the specific variety.

If we must stick with "Cantonese", titles that would give both a clearer delineation between the two articles and a clearer identification of this article's topic would be Cantonese (language family)–Cantonese (dialect), or Cantonese (language)–Standard Cantonese; other options are Yue Chinese–Cantonese language, Yue Chinese–Standard Cantonese, etc. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 15:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I also prefer the longer name as clearer, but was thinking of the parenthetical name as a common alternate, and as a political compromise. True, though, that's not something we do with other language articles. kwami (talk) 20:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

FAC-thought (Urumqi-riots)

I'm thinking... just in case the FAC goes through... We're gonna have to find a picture that's suitable for the front-page... I don't think any of the ones we have right now are good for that... (unless you want the damn map, but that'd be kinda cheesy...) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:41, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm... I bet we could grab a screenshot from Ccyber's video? rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Well... there is this: File:WLMQ Cellphone screenshots 2v1.jpg. Or was that deemed too extreme or inappropriate for some reason? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's inappropriate; mainly we just removed it when the video became available, since the video is the better option. (I don't know if they've ever used video for the TFA image, though.) All in all, I think something from that video is the only thing in the article that would really work. For example, the picture of the APCs in September looks good and rioty, but it's not from the actual riots (and we wouldn't want to be accused of making the same sort of flubs that people made in July showing pictures of the wrong riots), plus I think there would be an anti-China POV issue with showing a picture of the crackdown and not showing a picture of the riots. The picture of Kadeer, of course, is a no go since she's just the scapegoat (I'm sure the PRC government would be overjoyed, though, if we put that picture on the front page with the riots article :P). And yeah, other than that all that's really left is the map, and as you say it would be a bit cheesy...plus I think Raul doesn't like using flags and maps.

I think the screenshots already uploaded are a bit small, since it's really four crammed into one. But we could probably hold a brief discussion on what part of the video we want to take, and then have a tech-y person get a higher-resolution screenshot of that. (I don't think we need to worry about taking care of that, though, until the FAC is over :) ) rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

True. Just putting this into one more brain before it escapes mine :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Pick a frame, and I'll get you a high-res image. Just give me the time in milliseconds. :) -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 05:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to my name

Do let me know if you have any concerns about my copyedits. I am just trying to get the text to flow a little better; please feel free to revert any and all edits which you feel aren't a clear improvement. Best, --JN466 23:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I think your edits have been a major improvement! Thanks for taking the time to look at this, rʨanaɢ /_contribs 02:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Goodie. Just checking. :) JN466 04:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Special Force Online

Since I'm involved and you're more experienced with this stuff, could you take a look at the history of Special Force Online and take any admin action necessary? Shubinator (talk) 07:32, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Never mind for the moment; he's getting the message. Shubinator (talk) 07:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

WT:FILM

In response to your question here, I would say yes to it. The discussion I was mentioning was at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Films/Archive 26#WP:FILMRELEASE. Hope that clears it up. Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese numerals

Just created Vietnamese numerals. Will expand a bit more later (I'm hungry), but might need some copyediting if possible. Thanks. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:34, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks interesting, I'll take a look at it! I don't know much about Vietnamese so it'll be fun to read. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I am also unsure of the proper translation of ja:固有語 / zh:固有詞. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 04:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I'm not sure either. I haven't ever seen it talked about in English-language articles, I guess because it's a pretty Sino-centric idea. I think your translation of "native Vietnamese words" is probably ok, that's the first thing that came to my mind too. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Translation from ZH is now 100% complete. Skipped the Yan Emperor stuff because I couldn't really put it into context on an English page. Plus, my Classical Chinese is still horrible. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Image warning

Please note that the images File:Uyghur protest Berlin, July 2009 2.jpg and File:Uyghur protest Berlin, July 2009 3.jpg are up for deletion on Commons. This is because when you uploaded them, you said that you were sending a permission email to permissions-commonswikimedia.org, but the email was never received. The images will be deleted after 15 days unless a valid permission is received. Stifle (talk) 10:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I just looked at my e-mail and actually it looks like I did send an e-mail (and it was received) but the OTRS people weren't satisfied with it. The copyright holder said we're "free to use it", but I guess OTRS wanted to see the name of a license specifically. I've e-mailed the copyright holder again and asked her to send me an e-mail specifically saying CC (the license her other photos are released under), and once I receive that I'll send it on to OTRS. Since I don't foresee any problems (she was very cooperative before) I went ahead and removed the deletion tag. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 15:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Can't do that, I'm afraid; we have to keep track of the status of the images. There's a wait of at least 15 days before they're liable to be deleted, so there shouldn't be a problem. Stifle (talk) 09:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:BYOC Shanghai China reusable chopsticks green save trees.jpg

A tag has been placed on File:BYOC Shanghai China reusable chopsticks green save trees.jpg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section F9 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted images or text borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. IngerAlHaosului (talk) 13:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh wow, I forgot I had ever uploaded that (must have been one of my first uploads). You're right about the copyvio; I've gone ahead and deleted it. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 15:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Perry Meridian High School revert

Hello Rjanag, I noticed you reverted the edits by the ip address on the Perry Meridian High School article. I was also going to revert the edits, but checked out the links provided and thought I would just try to add them in a more proper manner. Although I am not sure that it's correct, I put them as references for the subjects the ip editor tried to link to. I wasn't trying to undo your reverts, but in the process I did re-insert the links. DD2K (talk) 01:24, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I hadn't noticed there were two edits by the IP there. I don't have a problem with adding a link to the school newspaper's site (I don't think that's usually done, but I doubt it's specifically forbidden either), but there's not really any good reason to link to a youtube userpage so I removed that one. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright, sounds good. I didn't know that YouTube was not supposed to be linked to, although I've seen something like that mentioned before. In any case, thanks. DD2K (talk) 02:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Unblock of User:Zhoroscop

Did some communication happen over e-mail, or on another wiki, to warrant this user's unblock? So far, he has used his account pretty much entirely for self-promotional editing and multi-project spam, so I'm not sure what benefit there could be in unblocking him unless he's given you a clear statement of what he intends to do here. (If he has done so that's fine; I just wanted to ask.) rʨanaɢ /_contribs 01:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, on the unblock-en-l mailing list. He is expected to be on his best behavior. Feel free to monitor his editing if you wish. Fred Talk 01:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Request your help/assistance

Hello Rjanag. Recently I've been trying to improve the article Economy of South Korea. I was originally working on it a couple months ago trying to clean up the heavily biased and poorly written introduction. Lately my edits continue to be reverted by user Softjuice, and just recently, user Alohahell. An excessive number of unrelated images are also in the article. I've tried to raise discussion on the discussion page, but instead get accused of vandalism. I'm not a heavy Misplaced Pages editor, I just stick to a few occasional topics I'm interested in and try to improve what I see that looks really poor. So perhaps I am wrong. I ask for help with you because you've worked on this article before, and it seems you've dealt with these two users before as well. So you probably know how to go about this better than I do. I also would like to note that two other former accounts (Tnaniua and Tankiona) have somewhat similar edit histories, and have both done similar reverts to this article, although they could just be entirely unrelated. Please let me know what you think, and what I should do. Anawrahta (talk) 16:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I can tell you right now that they're both problem editors—I've been watching Alohahell because he uploads numerous copyright violations, and Softjuice because he seems to be a single-purpose account to boast about South Korea wherever he can. Both of them, and other accounts, make problems by flooding articles with unnecessary, decorative, showoff images.

That being said, technically you are all edit warring at this article and none of you should be continuing to revert. It's time that a discussion happens and, if you guys can't work a consensus out, you can invite other uninvolved editors to comment (WP:WikiProject Korea might have people who can help). As much as I don't like Alohahell's and Softjuice's disruptive editing, edit warring is still unacceptable. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 19:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I have stopped editing that article and I won't touch it again until something can be worked out. I will bring it up at WP:WikiProject Korea. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anawrahta (talk • contribs) 21:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Alt text

I replied on my talk page. Ucucha 18:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible copyvio by users whom you warned

Hi, Rjanag, I noticed that you warned Alohahell (talk · contribs)'s possible copyvio images, and I totally agree with the concern. My gut feeling tells me that most of images that he uploaded do not look like taken by him. Do you know how to nominate his images for deletion in a bundle case? --Caspian blue 04:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

And his uploading of File:Ryugyong Hotel under construction on 26 August 2009.jpg looks very fishy, because according to his description on the image, A photo of the Ryugyong Hotel under construction during my last Pyongyang trip on 26th to 29th August 2009., the time matches the trip period of a South Korean Yonhap news team. Moreover, Reuter also published a news with images regarding the construction of the North Korean hotel on 28 August 2009.. I think Alohahell downloaded the image from Reuter's , and cropped and retouched with Photoshop program given that the very low resolution and unsharpness, etc. ---Caspian blue 04:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree. See here and here. even the construction crane in front of the building is at the same angle. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

And another thing: A better version of File:World's largest department store in Busan, South Korea.jpg appeared in Chosun almost month before he claimed to have taken it. Do clouds Korea stand still for 3 weeks, and is a national sport to park the same cars in exactly the same spots every day just in case two people wanna take a picture from exactly the same angle? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

thanks for that laugh....

"Britishizing"? LMAO Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:19, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't even realize that! Haha...some habits really are hard to break. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 06:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I meant the word, not the spelling!!!! ROFL Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Benlisquare likes this. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

hahaha rʨanaɢ /_contribs 13:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Peer review

Just a heads up - if an article does not pass at WP:FAC, the next peer review is supposed to wait two weeks after the close of the FAC, the idea being this gives time to address the issues which led to the article not passing at FAC. I wonder if an RfC would be better for establishing consensus on neutrality? A successful PR might only have one reviewer, but an RfC should attract many users. Ruhrfisch _><>° 14:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. Personally I don't care, but there was only one issue at FAC (brought up by only one POINTy opposer, who refused to continue discussing after the issue was addressed) so I didn't see any point sitting on my hands for two weeks doing nothing. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 17:15, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Thoughts?

>> ?? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings and thanksgivings

Firstly, I'm pleased to meet you. It has been great to see you working on the various Uyghur language-related articles, and I hope I will get to know you better. Secondly, I don't know if it is custom here on Misplaced Pages to give thanks, but I noticed you have awarded me a barnstar, so this is what I'm going to do: thank you, I'm just glad I'm able to contribute with something. -- Llonydd (talk) 17:51, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Chaucer's special manuscript words

I have recently expanded the article. Please look over with your expert knowledge and make any corrections needed. How many words do you count? Would it qualify now with enough prose words to qualify as a resubmitted normal DYK (not Valentine)?--Doug Coldwell 19:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for re-verifying the DYK. Left a note on Template talk:Did you know that your suggestion of ALT1 is fine by me. If there is anything else I should be doing, please let me know. Otherwise I'll assume it is on a normal track now. Thanks again for your expertise.--Doug Coldwell 21:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Shanghainese

The article you created is not substantially different than the one that was deleted, so it cannot be used. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 20:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

还有。。。你知道吗 维基百科有中文版， 连吴语版都有。 即使你不能够用英语交流，你还可以去参加中文或者吴语维基百科。 rʨanaɢ /_contribs 20:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

我的英语不好，所以用汉语回复您。

无论如何，谢谢您。对您投的反对票，我能理解。--ZHU Yeyi (talk) 18:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

zh:吳語拉丁式注音法

I saw you edited the page there. The subject was created by ZHU Yeyi who is the only other one who appears to be writing the page. I've gotten the page deleted here and at the Spanish Misplaced Pages, and it is being considered for deletion at the French Misplaced Pages. Perhaps you can list the page for AFD at zh?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't quite made up my mind where I sand on this...I'm leaning towards deleting all of them because of Yeyi's COI and because he hasn't supplied any good RS mentions, but I'm having a hard time gauging how notable this is, so I'm not sure yet. I have a few Chinese friends and I'm waiting form them to get online so I can ask them if they've ever heard of it...I know that doesn't count as an RS, but I have to admit it will influence my decision ;). rʨanaɢ /_contribs 16:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:WTUT

I know the policy is not about content of tables. Since this is a policy article, I am adding a few pointers of advice to the guideline. I plan to move it to a more general name, such as, wikipedia:tables.174.3.98.236 (talk) 08:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Then you should probably start a discussion at the talk page before making a major change in the scope of the page. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 15:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

And I see you are still not using

That happens both ways. Content changes on a page, then it gets moved to a more appropriate name.174.3.98.236 (talk) 23:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

(Seems to be some convergence in fields of interest between us. The former linguists-student keeps creeping up in me, even though I switched to art years ago... :P) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 01:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Heh, yes, linguistics can be quite addicting ;) rʨanaɢ /_contribs 04:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Sourside

I love how you assume things. You're a very funny user.

I'm just removing stuff that doesn't have citation and is obviously an opinionated comment by a PC gamer that has a agenda against consoles. I suggest you pay more attention. Sourside21 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sourside21 (talk • contribs) 07:25, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and so much for deleting this message without a response, am I right? Guess you were wrong, again... Sourside21

It's not my job to "pay attention", it's your job to provide a reason for reverting. That's what talkpages are for, that's what the edit summary box is for. Other editors should not have to read the article and its history to figure out what you're doing. This is a collaborative project. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 08:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to my name (2)

Rjanag, I've added a summary of the lyrics at the beginning of the "Lyrics and meaning" section. I think having a broad overview of the "storyline" will help the reader get a better feel for how the text could acquire other meanings than the literal one. Please have a look. I've adjusted some of the following content in the section accordingly, and moved the sentence on the phrase having no grammatical subject. I think it works. :) --JN466 11:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Another thing -- I've read/heard in several places that Cui Jian used to wear the the red blindfold when singing "A Piece of Red Cloth", rather than "Nothing to my Name"; specifically when performing at Tiannamen Square (e.g. , by Cui Jian himself, or ). Apart from Matusitz, none of the sources we cite seems all too definite on this point. I am wondering if Matusitz is wrong. --JN466 12:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I like your additions and copyedits, I agree that it makes things easier for the reader.

As for the red blindfold, I've had the same concern too... I think he's definitely known for wearing it during "A Piece of Red Cloth" (he even does in the music video), although I guess that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do it for "Nothing to my Name" either. Other than Matusitz, this source also says it (there were two other footnotes in the article, but I just checked them and I must have put them in in error; they don't seem to confirm anything). I recently noticed another article by Matusitz, published in December 2009 in Asia Europe Journal (it appears to be more or less the same thing as the one I cite, but more professional and perhaps better peer-reviewed)...it makes no mention of this, which might support your guess that he made a mistake and some reviewer caught it. Anyway, as it's not crucial to the article, I'm going to go ahead and remove it for now unless some new information comes up. rʨanaɢ /_contribs 22:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Good, glad you like the changes. :) I agree it is best to remove it. I'd seen the other source, but it didn't seem that definite on that point and left me with doubts, since Cui Jian himself is positive in TIME Magazine that he sang the other song with the bandana on at TS. So yes, he wore the bandana, and he sang Nothing to my name, like that source says, but probably not at the same time. :) We can keep the picture caption though, explaining that he sometimes performed with a red blindfold. We don't have to commit to saying which song he performed that way; but as he is depicted that way on the cover, we have a natural opportunity to mention that he sometimes performed like that. --JN466 22:32, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Floating island

Thank you for your help. I apologize for the typo: "interchangeable" should of course have been "interchangeably." I thought you'd appreciate the replacement of blogs with printed sources, for instance, and I trust that you agree there was a need for copyedits; that wasn't a very nice edit summary you left me. Please don't take me for a drive-by tagger. Thank you again. Dr Aaij (talk) 02:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

User:Jpatokal - his racist attack and harassment

Hi, Rjanag. If you have a moment, can you warn Jpatokal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) as an admin for his highly inappropriate slander including racist attack and WP:Harassment against me? At Joseon Dynasty and Emperor Gojong of the Korean Empire, a new user named Gavinhudson (talk · contribs) ‎inserted sources which include a commercial site that does not show anything about the book along with an unreliable source. After some discussion with the new user yesterday, the matter was well resolved between him and me.

However, the new user did not restore his edit to Joseon Dynasty and Jpatokal restored the new edit with an accusation against me of not assuming good faith. Another editor reverted his edit. The two editor did not seem to know about the discussion between me and Gavinhudson and Jpatokal reverted again (thus edit warred). Except the AGF accusation and a need for clarification about the content, I had no problem with Jpatokal's restoration. As Jpatokal opened a discussion at Talk:Joseon_Dynasty#Life_expectancy, I civilly explained the situation and my stance. However, Jpatokal suddenly visited Gavinhudson with clearly ill-faith to slander me. I consider his such inappropriate canvassing is not only a personal and racist attack (liberal dose of kimchi), and WP:Harassment. I've seen the user did the same thing elsewhere. So I think a strong admonishment from an admin would prevent him from repeating such ill behavior. Thanks.--Caspian blue 15:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Update Jpatokal (talk · contribs) is currently blatantly harassing me by repeatedly reverting to include his racist attack and false accusation on the Cavinhudson's talk page. He also absurdly demanded me to apologize to him (for what?) and Gavinhudson. I already apologized Gavinhudson for being hard on his new edits, and I'm the one who should get apology from him for his vicious behavior. Since the user does not seem to desist his behavior and does not realize how wrong he is, your administrative intervention would be needed for this harassment. Thanks.--Caspian blue 15:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd put this on Caspian blue's talk page, but he deletes anything I write there, so:

CB, I suspect you're not parsing the English correctly here. "Take X with a liberal dose of kimchi" is a pun on the English expression "take X with a grain of salt" (because, y'know, we're talking about Korea here). It's not a personal attack, much less a racist one. And I requested that you apologize to me and to Gavin for deleting my comment off his talk page, which is, IMHO, pretty darn rude to both of us. Jpatokal (talk) 02:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)