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${\displaystyle \star }$  Some principles governing this talk page  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Please observe Misplaced Pages:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here. This talk page is my territory, and I assume janitorial responsibility for it. I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. While I reserve the right to delete comments, I am normally opposed to doing so and use archives instead. If I inadvertently change the meaning, please contact me! When all else fails, check the edit history. -- BullRangifer (collaborate)

${\displaystyle \star }$  Regarding posting (or reposting) of my personal info at Misplaced Pages  ${\displaystyle \star }$ ${\displaystyle \star }$  DON'T DO IT!!  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Lately I have become more sensitive to the posting of personal information about myself here at Misplaced Pages. I am the target of cyberstalking and hate mail from some pretty unbalanced people and regularly receive threats (including occasional death threats). While I don't normally have any reason to hide my true identity, any past revealings by myself on or off wiki should not be construed by others as license to do it here at Misplaced Pages, where only my "BullRangifer" tag should be used. My personal identity and activities off wiki should be kept separate from my user name and activities on wiki. While such revealings here have often been done innocently, I still reserve the right to delete such personal information posted here at Misplaced Pages by others. My own and my family's security is at stake here, and I would appreciate support in this matter. Thanks. -- BullRangifer (collaborate)

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

What's in a name?

Name change.

Alternative medicine critics

Please help develop this. Use the talk page.

Stuff...

Stephen J. Press

As you can see from this recent message, I am utterly unimpressed by SJP. He seems fully deserving of his ban. Since they slide under existing pages, I saw no objection to restoring all the edits of ModTheRod (talk · contribs · logs). Done - enjoy (or should I say retch!). You really do need to archive this page - I can recommend the MiszaBot. — ] (talk · contribs) 02:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, and I'll archive it right now. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

FYI

Hi, there is a review started that may be of interest to you. Thought you might be interested. Hope all is well, --CrohnieGal 12:37, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Substances used in homeopathic preparations

I recall some disputes on content such as Cayenne_pepper#Other_Uses. Do you know where the discussions are, or what the consensus was in handling such information? --Ronz (talk) 15:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

If you're thinking of all the disputes related to Dana Ullman's self-promotion of his book, which names just about every substance, thus allowing him (he thought) to add a link to his book in every article, well, I wasn't very involved in them. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:15, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Not a problem. I got an answer from ScienceApologist that fits policy. --Ronz (talk) 02:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

alternative medicine

1. the D in wp:BRD stands for discuss. you are not participating in discussion here except to instruct other editors in what they can and cannot do, and that is not a reasonable approach. please discuss the content of the page properly.
2. please DO NOT remove dispute tags that have been placed on the page without discussing and attempting to resolve the dispute.

thanks. --Ludwigs2 07:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Spinal disc herniation

Hi Brangifer! You'll see my comments at WT:MED about this article's recent edits. I've taken the liberty of extending my comments to the article's talk page and to the anon IP's talk page, to invite him/her to supply the references that were alluded to, and to you as well to supply the reasoning behind the FDA standpoint - all in the intersts of producing a balanced article! Cheers! Mattopaedia 01:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC) (PS - that personal info warning up the top? That's some pretty dire shit there dude! I'm sorry to hear that you've been subject to such disappointing and scary behaviour. My prayers & best wishes to you and your family! Mattopaedia )

Wow! I just commented there, saved my edit, and the notice that a comment had been made here popped up! That's freaky timing. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Jessie Sayre

Thanks for your comments. By the way, I'm finding conflicting information regarding the circumstances of her (early) death. Princeton's library said it was after surgery for an appendectomy. But -iIt looks like the family released a statement that week stating that she was operated upon for gall bladder disease and suffered "vasco-motor failure," a phrase not often used. I'll keep looking for clearer info, but if you know an authoritative source, I'll certainly defer to your edit.Wikijsmak (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I have read the statement about surgery for an appendectomy, but don't recall reading the other info. If I find anything I'll let you know. If that information is from RSs, then both can be mentioned, and some other editor who notices the conflicting information may provide a source that clears up what seems like a contradiction (at least to laymen). -- Brangifer (talk) 18:48, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I also see that her husband wrote an autobiography (Glad Adventure)in 1957, but haven't yet found a place to read it; in Google Books it's just a snippet view. I'll keep looking, but if someone in your family has it, I'm sure it has more first-person primary information on her than just about anything else out there.Wikijsmak (talk) 19:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm absolutely certain that no one in my immediate family has the book because I'm the only one doing any genealogical research. The relationship is also distant. Jessie Woodrow Wilson Sayre and I have a common ancestor, Daniel Sayre (1666-1723). That's pretty far back! That makes me the 7th cousin of Jessie's granddaughter Harriet. I have been able to trace my ancestry back to William Sayre, b. 1452 in Bedfordshire, England. I'm related to the Sayres and Ansleys, two families who had active genealogists who documented their families quite nicely. BTW, what do you think of the photos I found? Jessie was an attractive woman whose social concerns and activism no doubt had a great deal of influence upon her famous son, the Very Rev. Francis B. Sayre, Jr.. As a top clergyman he did what he could with his enormous influence. The Sayre's were and still are a remarkable family, with many notable individuals. Another relative I've found is Janet G. Travell, M.D., who was also in the White House, but as President Kennedy's personal physician. That relationship is close enough that I inherited a box full of postcards, family pictures, and postage stamps from her uncle, a noted philatelist in San Bernardino. He was a founder of the Arrowhead Stamp Club there, which still exists. --Brangifer (talk) 01:50, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

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Arbitration enforcement warning: discretionary sanctions (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy)

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose, at their own discretion, sanctions on any editor working on pages broadly related to Homeopathy if the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in further inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. The committee's full decision can be read at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy#Final decision.

This warning relates to the current WP:AE thread at .  Sandstein  06:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Alt Med

I see no need and have no interest in making any promises to you about anything - you are not my mother. Further, if you continue badgering me on the talk page with personal questions that have nothing to do with developing the article I will ask an administrator to intervene. is that sufficiently clear? --Ludwigs2 09:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I can understand that we should probably take the dispute to a private talk page, although the dispute was related to events occurring on that talk page, so it was natural to continue there. Preventing reocurrances of disruption by you is definitely in the interests of protecting the article from disruption. It's also abundantly clear that you are a testy and uncollaborative editor that isn't interested in seeking consensus. You haven't shown evidence that you can learn from your mistakes. That's unfortunate. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

B - you have literally done nothing on that talk page (or the article itself) except insult other editors, tell them that they are not allowed to make edits, and otherwise interfere with the concensus-building process, so please don't talk to me about being testy and uncollaborative. You are entitled to think whatever you like about me (frankly, I don't have a high enough regard for you at the moment to take it personally), and as long as you keep it off article-space edit summaries and talk pages we can move on. I will suggest generally that you stop trying to bully other editors into complying with your wishes and start communicating and editing to properly improve the article, but I will manage even if you don't, so that is entirely your choice. --Ludwigs2 19:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I think WP:DENY applies here. --Ronz (talk) 19:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Editors who don't seek consensus, but edit war instead, don't deserve recognition or a place at the editing table. Let their utterances be treated with the silence and disdain they deserve. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Spaces before/after heading labels

Hi there. I saw your changes to Skepticism. Just curious, but is there any particular reason for adding spaces before/after headings, i.e. next to the equals signs? I just tried it and it seems to make no difference: User:Tayste/Sandbox. Perhaps it's just for readability (which would be fine by me) but it doesn't seem to be stipulated in Misplaced Pages:MOS#Section_headings, in fact that says that bots are known to come along and remove the spaces again. Tayste (edits) 07:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It's actually not from the MoS, but is the default setting. Try starting a new section automatically by clicking the new section link and type a few letters. Then go back and edit it. You'll discover what Misplaced Pages's default settings are. It's built into WikiMedia's software. I do it for readability's sake, especially the blank line under the heading. The changes are invisible except when editing and don't hurt anything as they are the default settings. I don't know why anyone would make a bot change them, but it doesn't affect the appearance anyway, except to make it harder for people whose eyes are getting old. That's good enough reason to leave the default settings alone. I just checked and the default spacings are unchanged. -- Brangifer (talk) 08:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, you learn something new here every day! Tayste (edits) 19:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not really a big thing, which is why I have never done anything official about it. It's just a matter of convenience for myself and for others who might have trouble seeing things as clearly. My eyesight isn't bad, but I do have to use reading glasses now, which is pretty much normal for my age. When scanning a page while editing, having a blank line both above and below the heading makes it much easier to not overlook a heading. In long articles this can be a problem. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Backlash to chiropractic lawsuit against Simon Singh

Concerning blanked webpages, are you aware of archive.org? — Robert Greer (talk) 00:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

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Quotes suggestion

You could use some Eastern quotes on your core page. Try Lao Tzu, Confuscious, Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Tien Tai, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Admiral Yamamoto Tsunetomo,proverbs, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiggalama (talk • contribs) 03:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Why? Do you have some specific suggestions? -- Brangifer (talk) 03:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

RE: Merging SPI

Hi there BullRangifer, the SPI case that you opened has been merged with a case opened by Hroðulf, if you go here you can see the two SPI cases: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/86.45.71.28, hope that clears it up? Kindest regards, Spitfire 15:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Old socks

Not every IP is a sock. You just raised the flag on a post that was almost two years old. You might want to strike that out.Novangelis (talk) 04:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

True enough. Shall we call it the IP of a blocked user based on location and subject ;-) ? Note that it's the same subject raised by the same user at a previous time. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Given in that instance, there were no other comments for a month, it's weak. The duck test has to be tempered by assuming good faith. An edit from an IP is not necessarily a sock, even in a sequence. Sometimes you see three reverts followed by an IP, or a block followed by IP change; that's clear. A solitary IP edit where there is no strict 3RR/24h violation or block, isn't a hard violation. If the rules wouldn't be breached if the user claimed the edit, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. It is always possible that the editor forgot to log on. Alternate accounts are legal, so a solitary IP edit, without a clear effort to bypass the rules, may walk like a duck, but you have to wait until you hear it quack before you can (and should) nail it to the wall.Novangelis (talk) 05:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

As you may have noticed, I immediately removed my remark after answering you above. The duck test is extremely strong for it being the same person behind Wiggalama. Let's hope they learn something from their block and return a better editor, but their behavior and insults indicate an immature editor, so nothing would surprise me. They have been repeatedly blocked and have an unfortunate tendency to remove warnings and then (apparently) ignore them. Yes, they "heard" the warnings, but didn't internalize them. That's a key trait of a disruptive and uncollaborative editor. As long as they behave when they return, they'll have no troubles from me. We can hope they have the ability to learn and improve. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Paul Offit

I removed the direct quotes from anti-vaxxers not to whitewash them but because they were WP:undue ; there could no doubt be collected a lot of random statements from speeches and blogs in support of him, but we wouldn't bother. Martinlc (talk) 15:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree. The controversies have been quite public and have been covered by numerous V & RS. It would be undue if we gave the vaccine critics too much coverage, but that was very minimal coverage and exposes their rabid agenda. I am in the process of finding some other statements of support for him, as that aspect wasn't covered at all. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Propagation of the Absurd: demarcation of the Absurd revisited

In an article in The Medical Journal of Australia, Sampson and Atwood wrote about the inroads CAM is making as the "propagation of the absurd":

"The Absurd has gained a degree of agency and respect in some quarters of society through the CAM movement... The guardians that usually keep the institution of medicine from reeling off into irrationality are social contracts built into medical science and ethical behaviour. The academic community guards the contractual borders of science, while laws and regulations encode our ethical system. For the Absurd to have advanced, there must have been some breakdown of these social guardians. Postmodernism has promoted breakdown and reorientation of structured forms of thought. One of its guises is language distortion — the redefinition and use of words to fit personal views. For example, alternative and complementary have been substituted for quackery, dubious and implausible. Another is the invention of integrative medicine — designed to leapfrog methods into practice without need for proof... Postmodernism creates an atmosphere in which absurd claims are accepted more readily because they have simply been renamed... Postmodern CAM also tolerates contradiction without need for resolution through reason and experiment, resulting in a medical pluralism.... Implausible proposals and claims become tolerable and comfortable, and the CAM advocate’s burden of proof is shifted to disproof by the science community, which that community accepts without major objection. These are constructions designed for propagation of the Absurd... The new sociolegal order also shows breakdown of classical ethics. CAM followers declare it to be ethical to perform clinical trials on scientifically implausible treatments — merely because the treatments are popular."

1. Sampson and Atwood, Propagation of the Absurd: demarcation of the Absurd revisited. The Medical Journal of Australia, 2005; 183 (11/12): 580-581

Simple Misplaced Pages

Hi BR, I have no idea what the SW's rules are. I assume the same as ours, but I'm not familiar with it. I'll take a look at the edits, but not sure what I can do. SlimVirgin 03:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Aren't you an admin there? -- Brangifer (talk) 04:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Global warming

Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Global warming, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Misplaced Pages:General sanctions/Climate change probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages.

The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is any problem with your edits. Thank you. -- TS 02:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tony. Thanks for the notification. I don't think I've ever been involved in those matters. I only removed obvious policy violations. If you're concerned about my edits, please let me know what I might have done wrong so I don't do it again. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey there BR, I thought I would answer your question above since this is a standard warning. Everyone who edits any of the articles within the Global warming articles gets one of these templates since the articles went on watch because of the editing that is quite heated there with some of the editors. You didn't necessarily do anything other than edit there which is what brought the notice to your talk page. Again, anyone who edits in the GW articles will receive this template, so don't worry about what you did. I hope this helps, --CrohnieGal 11:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

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Mediumship ‎

I may be making a mistake, but I am unable to find any assertion in the source that science refutes the existence of spirits etc. Could you show me the exact wording? If it is just oversight on my part then I apologise. I disagree with the statement anyway, given that science is not a body of authority but a method of investigation, and should make no decision about something not existing, I can't help but believe that a scientist wouldn't be so quick to this conclusion. A skeptic, yes, but not a scientist. Macromonkey (talk) 15:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You are correct about the source. The source mentions "communication with the dead", but that particular page (others from that source do) doesn't deal with spirits. Other sources should be used to bolster that part of the statement. I'll fix that for you. As to science, it deals with what is proveable, and doesn't use much effort on what isn't proveable. Religion deals with that. If it hasn't been proven using the scientific method, it belongs in the realm of religion and metaphysics. It needs to be falsifiable in order to be classifiable as a scientific subject. Since extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, the claimed existence of spirits is usually ignored by laboratory scientists, but activist scientists (skeptics) may deal with it. It's up to believers to prove their existence, and such extraordinary proof hasn't been provided in a manner that convinces the scientific community. If it had, we wouldn't have this discussion. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, I may have not articulated my view correctly. I believe that scientists should not refute the existence so explicitly. Whilst it has not been proven, suggestive evidence has been given, yet is unfortunately often ignored because of the stigma attached to parapsychology. So whilst there is no conclusive proof, there is enough for it to be considered possible, however 'unlikely'. As such, stating that science shows us that spirits do not exist would be incorrect, and as you put it, if proof against spirits had be given, 'we wouldn't have this discussion'.

Additionally, requiring 'believers' to provide proof is illogical, since any proof given would be considered void due to the fact that it comes from such a source, not to mention the fact that it is the job of scientists to investigate phenomena fairly, not leave others to prove it.

Finally, the 'extraordinary proof' is a typical mantra of skepticism, a true and fair method of investigation should treat everything equally and without bias. Thanks Macromonkey (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

P.S I've seen the correction to the article which I can now deal with, it is phrased more diplomatically. Macromonkey (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Basically it's a matter of following the scientific method. A scientist, when speaking formally, would say that they have not seen any convincing evidence of their existence, rather than categorically saying that they don't exist. They would say "show me the proof". It would also be proper in some cases to say that some claimed phenomena or method is highly unlikely to be true or effective, such as homeopathy. That's not the same as saying something is impossible. In common speech, which scientists and skeptics often use, things are often stated more informally and statements that such and such doesn't exist or doesn't work are common expressions, and that doesn't automatically make them pseudoskeptics. Hey, we're all human ;-)

As to the burden of proof, it is always on the claimant. Scientists are not obligated to prove or disprove extraordinary claims. That's the way the scientific method works. Marcello Truzzi understood this quite well. Where he went wrong, and we'd likely disagree on this, is that he didn't admit of the appropriateness of stopping investigation when it is futile or a waste of time. Modern skeptics and scientists, for very practical (and often economic) grounds, have learned to give up and cease investigating when something is just too far out, or has been repeatedly and succesfully debunked. They very properly insist that believers must be the ones to provide the proof. For example, scientists aren't obligated to prove a negative. They don't have to disprove something. They can simply say, I won't believe you until you provide convincing evidence.

You're welcome to believe in the spirit world. Many religions believe such things, and as long as it is held as a personal religious belief, there is no problem. The problem starts when someone fails to recognize the difference between proven fact and personal belief. When someone claims that a personal belief is a scientifically proven fact, they are guilty of pseudoscientific thinking, IOW it's a fringe claim. That's where the scientific consensus, for example as expressed by national scientific bodies, comes down squarely against belief in homeopathy and spirits. Only fringe scientists believe in such things. They have made the mistake of suspending disbelief and have drunk woo woo koolaide. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with it being regarded as a fringe belief, it was merely the wording in the article that irritated me. I would also like to make it clear that I have no problem with scientific skepticism: things such as alternative medicine (particularly homeopathy) can be dangerous. I appreciate the need for proof, although it must be admitted that they will always be in different spheres of knowledge. To me though, 'debunking' the existence of spirit is immediately ignoring the personal experiences of millions of humans throughout history, these things seem subjective. Also, try to find a culture of which we have sufficient knowledge, and see if you can find one that doesn't have spirits or ghosts etc. From a historical point of view, it's amazing, not to mention the psychological and evolutionary factors if spirits don't exist. :) Macromonkey (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

P.S, I see your point now with the mediumship article, although would suggest the wording to be different, atm it seems very definite and making an outright statement, which is what I have a problem with, not skepticism. It's all very well to be skeptical until proof is given, that's good science, but making outright assertions is not. Macromonkey (talk) 10:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Note: the above applies to the suggested change on the psychic page, mediumship is now acceptable. Macromonkey (talk) 10:43, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What particular wording(s) on the psychic page do you consider problematic from a policy POV? -- Brangifer (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

warned

re this and this. you insult me directly or indirectly in almost every post you make to me, on this and other pages. if you continue to do so, I will ask an administrator to intervene. please refrain from any further discussion of your interpretations of my past actions, your impressions of my personal characteristics, or any discussion of me at all. focus your comment on article content, please.

thanks. --Ludwigs2 15:57, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. L's past actions warrant discussion, but insults don't seem necessary. I think the request improper as it relates to your L's actions, but insults are not necessary, even if they would be considered appropriate in most civilized contexts. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Neither of those diffs resembles an insult, IMHO. It should be noted that I wouldn't block either of you, as I've been involved with disputes with both in AltMed articles. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm merely asking that Brangifer keep comments about me off article talk pages. I am not (myself) interested in his obvious misinterpretations of our previous interaction, and they are insulting and irrelevant to the discussion of article content. If he has a problem with me personally, he can use my talk page or some more official page for user conduct, but I do insist that he be be both civil and on topic in content discussions. Do you have a problem with that, Arthur?

I will make an effort to do the same on my part, of course (which is what I normally do, though I have occasional slips). let's hope this is the last we here of the issue. --Ludwigs2 17:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

"Warned"! On my talk page. (Welcome to the lion's den, Daniel.) You really have nerve after all the shit you've pulled off. There is nothing insulting in what I wrote. It might be unpleasant for you to have your past history brought up, but it was very relevant to the comments made by you and by the admin, and was actually necessary to explain why 3RR wasn't an appropriate option when you are part of the mix of editors. You haven't shown ANY evidence that you understand or accept that editing at the same time a BRD discussion is ongoing is improper. Your past actions created a very disruptive edit war, and your very dubious accusations against Verbal at the Arbitration board (and now here) were even more disruptive per "when you live in a glass house, don't throw stones". You were the one who maintained an edit war against the objections of numerous other editors, and then you had (and have) the audacity to complain! Now you have the audacity to complain again? Talk about thin skin! If you don't like to have your improper behavior civilly and accurately described, then don't engage in it. (Note that civil descriptions are far from personal attacks.) Thin skinned violators of BRD don't deserve to have their offences whitewashed and hidden from view.

I wouldn't have described the context if the admin hadn't proposed methods (BRD and 3RR) that haven't worked with you, AND if you hadn't immediately before my edit attempted to force me to not describe your offenses when I hadn't even considered doing so. What's really ironic about this situation is that I had pretty much forgotten them until you opened your mouth. When YOU unnecessarily poke an unresolved and festering issue created by yourself, do you think that Chanel No. 5 is going to come out when YOU poke it? Of course not. YOU created a mess, YOU have failed to resolve it, and when YOU insist on poking it, it's going to come out as the pus that it is. If you will only show that you can learn from your mistakes, you will be forgiven, BIG time! I don't hold grudges against people who can learn, but those who don't learn are always a thorn in Misplaced Pages's side and need to be watched, especially with all the aggressive language you have used on that talk page, and your threats to IAR.

Take a look at the section above this one. Here we have an editor who has been banned, used socks, attacked me, and even impersonated me!, and I'm having an enjoyable time seeing this editor learning and trying to make constructive edits. We still don't share POV, but at least they are collaborative, which is more than I can say about you. They are learning and demonstrating a positive learning curve. They can become a good editor. You, in contrast, are digressing and have used your experience here to become an expert at wikilawyering, stonewalling, and gaming the system. You are about as close to a twin of Levine2112 as I've come across in that you profess to be a skeptic, claim to think that scientific thinking is admirable, and yet you constantly and subtly undermine the scientific POV and seek to make fringe POV seem mainstream. That's a violation of policy and ArbCom decisions. That's almost a genetic twin, and if you take offense at that, please be my guest, because it's not a compliment. (You're on my turf!)

After a long period where you showed promise, I've seen you rather suddenly (so much so that I've suspected you're allowing Levine2112 to use your account) coming from nowhere and confronting me out of the blue and returning to your original newbie combativeness. I have therefore come to consider you to be a subtly disruptive pusher of fringe POV, and those are the most dangerous kind for this project. Until you show that you really are on the side of science and evidence, instead of constantly chafing under the limitations which WP:FRINGE place on your fringe agenda, you'll always have a cloud of very justified suspicion hanging over your edits. Subtly undermining Misplaced Pages to make fringe issues appear to be mainstream is disruptive. I can't control what agenda you choose, but I can describe it civilly, and complaints are only going to make the spotlight shine more clearly on what you're doing. Believe me, for you "silence is golden". Just edit sensibly, avoid conflicts, be collaborative, avoid edit wars like the last one you maintained for so long, and you'll be okay. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to think whatever you like about me, and indulge in whatever fantastic imaginings make you happy (such as the above). If you have specific concerns about me or my behavior, feel free to speak with me about them in user talk (within reason), and I'll respond as I can. if you're feeling particularly aggrieved, take me to wikiquette, and you'll find I'll be most reasonable about it. However, I will not allow you to try to win arguments about content by criticizing me as a person on article talk pages. If you can't get your way by making valid, reasoned arguments, don't try to get your way by using cheap tricks.

If you keep trying to poison the well with me, you'll find that I've survived that nonsense from people who are much, much better at it than you are. It's not going to serve you well in the long run. do what you like, of course (far be it from me to tell you what to do), but don't blame me if it backfires. --Ludwigs2 07:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

My basic concern has little to do with content and much more to do with your edit warring. That behavior bothers me regardless of the topic. That's why I've always had concerns about QuackGuru and the "old" ScienceApologist. I'd like to be able to trust you. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Seventh-day Adventist Church

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. You are being notified as you have made a number of contributions to the article. I have found some concerns which you can see at . I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi I am trying to add pertinent info on the OPV/AIDS theory based on 3 years of research in North East Congo. Why are you deleting it? Thanks

Hi, I am new to Wiki but I have done some serious work in North East Congo and even got the ex head of Wistar Lab (which was involved in the Congo trials) on video footage. I am a scientist trained at Oxford University. If you please link on my movie, you will see that there is very important data relevant to the OPV/AIDS theory and the controversial, potentially contaminated, vaccine experiments in NE Congo in 1957-59. Please don't delete my comments.

Fluxsingh (talk) 09:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but personal videos and interviews, such as are found on YouTube, aren't considered reliable sources of information. It needs to be published by a third party in a verifiable and reliable source. Those are the rules here. At Misplaced Pages sourcing is everything, so we have very specific policies that govern what types of sources we can use. Misplaced Pages doesn't publish original research. You also have a conflict of interest, and if you aren't careful, you can also get blocked. Have you read the links I left on your talk ("discussion") page? You should also check out each of the items I have linked in this message. If you fail to do so, you'll just end up in trouble, get blocked, and your link may even get added to our blacklist. I suggest you take this matter to the Reliable sources noticeboard and ask them what they think you should do. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the prompt response:

I want to point out something: - if you see my movie - you will see that it is already BASED on all the published material and sources - from Nature, Science, etc. that you have added to your quite impressive (for people not involved in the debate directly) entry on polio-aids. Polio-aids, if true, has immense implications for human life and safety, speaking from the point of view of our species. Hence it is important, that the editors ascertain whether I have TRULY broken the rules. If my video, is only a visual representation, of what has been already discussed in print in your article, then what is the harm in including it. I chose the visual representation of communication because there have been so many cranky theory of aids origin, not to mention the billion dollar lawsuits that some might face, if polio aids is true, that I felt that a visual representation of already published scientific article was important, especially since Wiki itself suffers from a paucity of images. Yes, over the years, my research in Congo led to to believe that there was more truth to polio aids then the scientific mainstream journals (which presented only a politically correct version) represented - and which lay people thought to be the unvarnished truth. But this is not about my point of view. In your article, you have quoted several scientific sources discussing polio - aids, albeit, cautiously, some dismissive, some supportive. What if somebody put up a visual image of all of this debate. Wouldn't that count as an Wiki entry - being simply a DIFFERENT mode of communication, in order to make dense scientific ideas accessible in a more democratic fashion, free of jargon, using the power of the audio-video medium, which many feel - to be the language of the future? Just as Wiki is the encyclopaedia of the future. Thus, given the important of the topic, I humbly request the editors to SEE my movie. It will, if nothing else, inform your various debates on this page. It is only 1 hour or so, in 8 parts. I put it up for free on youtube, because of the importance of the topic. Fluxsingh (talk) 17:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I definitely agree that multimedia presentations have their place in this world, and that they can have a very powerful effect, but they aren't allowed as sources in this encyclopedia. I'm just one editor and you would need to get a consensus of a larger group of editors to make an exception to our rules. You really do need to present this at the Reliable sources noticeboard and ask them what they think you should do. Present your case there. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Mills

Did you look at the talk page? I had a ton of facts backing up my reason for the delete. Orlandy Orlady? or something like that. Well her own post in the talk page shows they have accrediation and are not a mill. Yes the university appears to be having some problems, but if every university that has a problem is a mill....well we would have no schools left. --Super (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)